HOW is the Purple Book wrong or unbiblical

[jonmoseley]

As mentioned elsewhere, I am very angry and opposed to the fraudulent nature of most of this discussion, because people are disagreeing with Every Nation (formerly Morning Star)'s theological beliefs. However, those critics are too dishonest and childish to address themselves to the actual questions of theology and to debate those openly and from the Bible. Instead of having an open and honest debate about what is true or untrue from the scriptures (and where the scriptures leave room for various views to agree to disagree or at least to seek some guidance from what is known from the scriptures), these critics seek to win their Biblical debate through cheap shots and ad hominem attacks. Instead of discussing the Bible as we should, they want to discredit those who hold differing opinions, to silence any other voice but their own. (Actually there are times when we should not bother with all discussions. Paul himself warned against pointless and contentious disputes of doctrine, on matters other than salvation. So some disputes are a waste of time, stirring up contention and strife to no purpose.)

SO LET'S GET IT ON:

To try to focus things a little bit, I propose to (for now) confine ourselves to a well-defined and specific statement of Every Nation's Biblical beliefs.... which is the Purple Book.

For those who do not know, the Purple Book is a study guide that all new members of EN/MSI are encouraged to work through to know the basics of the Bible, as EN/MSI sees them.

So, this is the best and fairest way to judge whether or not Every Nation/Morning Star is Biblically correct... turn to the book that THEY use to train and teach believers on what the Bible actually says on important topics.

So, in my view, and before Heaven and Earth, and in the Mighty Name of Jesus, with Jesus Christ remembering your actions and your words for eternity, I abjure you to (a) define how exactly something in the Purple Book is unBiblical, or else (b) REPENT of your unfounded criticisms of EN's theological beliefs.

I will also point out to you that I LEFT EN because I felt that they were getting people saved and teaching the basics, whereas after 20 years as a Christian I needed SOMETHING MORE at my stage in life, more graduate school than K-12.

But you should know that I AM NOT a member at this time, nor a leader. And yet I am offended by the lack of TRUTH in the unfounded and unfair attacks on this Board.

Also, clearly there can be other kinds of criticism as to particular individual leaders or such. I do not want to be unfair myself in limiting the discussion to the Purple Book. There can be other topics of criticism.

BUT AT LEAST AS A STARTING POINT, if you cannot find something wrong in the Purple Book -- and simply saying you have a different opinion does not make it WRONG -- then we can close the book on the idea that EN has any wrong theology. You might then suggest that individual leader X fails to live by EN's theology, or something else. BUT AT LEAST we can NARROW IT DOWN.

[freedom43]

Jon -- There are many on this board who have delved deeply into the theological origins of MM/MSI/EN -- I am not one of them. Spend some time reading Bill Mack's stuff among others.

I have never seen the purple book. And, I can only speak from my own experience in the DC church until 1991/1992 -- when I left after 12 years in Maranatha/Grace Covenant, but my recollection is that anyone who disagreed with the leadershp was wrong. Period. Perhaps that has changed but at that time, they would not give YOU or anyone the same courtesy that you are giving others here: when you say. "So, and simply saying you have a different opinion does not make it WRONG." It is more than just strictly theology that makes something a cult.

(Message edited by freedom43 on October 21, 2006)

[freedom43]

P.S. There is a thread on the purple book under teachings/bible/practices -- but it has been discussed in many places on the board.

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

jon wrote:
"turn to the book that THEY use to train and teach believers on what the Bible actually says on important topics."

my comment: your statement sums up the argument that presents EN's beliefs are not Biblical.

"THEY use to train and teach believers on what the Bible actually says..."

Hello? What happened to the priesthood of the believer? Do new belivers not have enough sense to hear what the Holy Spirit has to teach as they begin their study of the Bible?

And my view is that the primary and most valuable tool to hand a new believer is not the Purple Book...BUT, a Bible (NKJV), dictionary and concordance.

My experience never had EN supplied such basic and simple exhortation as that. EN's view is Purple Book (over and over), VLI (2-3 yrs), Cell Groups (never ending) and if you are deemed as important enough...then weekly One-on-One meetings with your discipler.

If that does not describe options that provide "static" for the one believer to hear the quiet and subdued promptings of the Holy Spirit...then I don't know what is.

And you also made another point in the argument against EN's machinery of making disciples...

jon wrote: "I LEFT EN because I felt that they were getting people saved and teaching the basics, whereas after 20 years as a Christian I needed SOMETHING MORE at my stage in life, more graduate school than K-12".

my comment: Hello? Why are all these disciples captured by EN's efforts and machinery not spiritually growing up????

EN's care of new believers is like shrimp on a treadmill.

-Brick

[robert_unknown]

I have read and worked through the purple book in my church (together with "my" disciples) at least 5 times within one year and i have preached certain parts!

The problem with studies like the purple book is, that you can teach nearly ANYTHING you like with the methology of arguing that is used in the PB.

For example, you can argue FOR death penalty through stoning, if you like, by using topic-related "studies" and methology like it is
used in the purple book. or other things like long hair for women, no female preachers, etc...etc...

the main critizism here is the WAY, subjects get "studied" in the PB.

ie:

1- topic (ie leadership)
2- hidden preasumption (ie a certain way to submit to leadership)
3- verses out of context to "proof" the preasumption (ie David not "touching" the anointed one - has not the same value in the NT as in the OT! and its taken out of any context!)
4- questions that cannot be answered differently as whished by the person who asked. the question is only there to make the reader feel as he has discovered something, in fact he is answering exactly whats expected!

this is NO biblestudy!

a biblestudy works diferrently and is in line with sound hermeneutical principals. here are only some:

1- read the text in context (not one verse only for itself!)
2- examine the greek/ hebrew words and their exact meaning
3- consider and accept the social and historical background of the text/ passage
4- accept and recognize the context of the passage/ text
5- draw a conclusion thats in line with the above

the problem with EN - theologicaly - is: THERE IS NO THEOLOGY! EN is open to every chuirch that can accept their core values. there is no comon theology used by all churches. there are charismatic churches in EN as well as more conservative/ evangelical oriented churches. This is something that was told us by the EN leadership.

But there are some common and widely accepted ideas in EN (sheperding, discipleship, authority of leaders, new apostolic authority,...) that have been problematic in MCM and that are still problematic sociologicaly in EN!

Thats the concerns people are sharing here on this board.

Why?

Because we have suffered from this things!

In this respect we allow us to question certain aspects of the base of ENs teachings. We also allow us to think criticaly and to compare ENs teachings with orthodox christian believes.

I have drawn my conclusions about EN after many years in leadership of an EN church as follwing: "Mene, mene tekel upharsim!"

[forword]

Lets assume for a moment that every principle taught in the proof text of the Purple Book is correct. If that was only used as a starting point to then launch the new believer into a study of the whole Bible, that would be great. However, we were told not to bring our Bibles to cell groups, but rather to keep going over the Purple Book, or worse yet, EN's other discipleship books that were even more watered down.

Quite frankly, even from the pulpit, we were taught only a handful of scriptures, pounded into us again and again. As you yourself have said, they don't go deep. But even worse, they don't go wide. They present a very narrow, unbalanced view of God's Word. The net result is they do not teach truth.

If I tell a new driver that green lights mean go and I drill that truth into him so that he will never forget, I am not lying. If, however, a fail to inform him that a red light means stop, I have given him a distorted view of the rules of the road that will put his life in danger, though I did not lie.

So it is at EN. There are many truths of the Bible that are NEVER taught, never discussed. Teachings about taking care of widows and orpahns, about feeding the poor....I never heard taught ONCE in my five years of heavy envolvment (VLI, ministry team, etc. ) at the EN mother church Bethel World Outreach Center in Nashville.

All that said, I DO NOT believe that everything taught in the purple book is correct. ULYankee and Dust have already addressed this on another Purple Book thread.

[robert_unknown]

good thought forword!

i was encouraged to to the PP to my leaders and churchmembers. 2 years of bibleschool was NOT enough. some have been christians since 10 years and have been involved in the church faithfully, Gods my wittnes, but it was not enough. why?

even I was told to join a desciplegroup and to the purple book. after 20 years beeing a christian, after having spend years of my life in bibleschools, after havent preached and teached for many years.

the question should be: WHY does EN expect mature christians and long-year ministers to embrace the Purple Book?

(Message edited by robert_unknown on October 21, 2006)

[dust]

The Purple Book has a purpose.

To MAKE DISCIPLES in a network marketing fashion.

Be Duplicable. In other words, as quickly as a new believer can begin recruiting, he can take the PB and teach recruits to get recruits to get recruits. No need to study to teach. No need to mature the believers, to make TRUE DISCIPLES.

The church benefits by getting LOTS OF PEOPLE there, and they can think "we're saving the world, and getting a lot of money in, too," But, the true state of their spiritual well-being or the protection of the truth in scripture or the benefit of a believer to have a REAL FULL RELATIONSHIP with God, who cares,

And like many network marketing companies, there is great pressure from the upline to increase the downline.

And, like many network marketing companies, you have pay for the tools, (their publications) and pay for the training (their ENLI or VLI, or Pastor's school.) They even once charged $150 to teach people a seminar on PRAYER. That's cheesey!
The Marriage Retreats are $300!

Now network marketers have every right to charge for trainings and increase numbers. They are in the SELLING BUSINESS, and they are out to make a financial profit. That makes sense.

But you can't do this with Christianity.

[ulyankee]

BTW, I just finished watching the E412 DVD series... it appears there are additional things there that weren't in the CD series... and it appears the point of outreach groups and the accompanying E412 discipleship materials is to additionally get people through the Purple Book and into ENLI, which is where "maturing" happens. It is a way to make it easier to get people to want to go to ENLI rather than having to recruit for ENLI (the word recruit was used so I'm not saying this arbitrarily). The Purple Book was even characterized as an "intense" Bible study compared to the other materials which is quite sad since it's not an intense study at all but a very elementary study.

Not all of the Purple Book is bad, and there are chapters that do teach Christian foundational truths. But there are additional "foundational" teachings in there that are debatable, particularly having to do with EN's teachings on authority and tithing/giving (and I don't mean the overall Biblical concept of tithing either but how EN interprets it as reflected in the Purple Book). They may be foundational EN beliefs but not necessarily foundational, universal Christian beliefs. Chapter 7 is a good example of this imho as mentioned on another thread, where some verses are presented in order to teach how to relate with and submit to authority in the church, how to deal with sin and disputes in the church, but others are omitted, including 1 Timothy 5:19-20 to give one example.

I didn't realize any of this while I was in MSI (EN). I would have questions about things that didn't seem to square right in my spirit, but then I'd go to the Purple Book or look at the statement of faith and think, well, it's really ok. But the check in my spirit never went away - I wanted it to; I wanted to believe the best. But I couldn't understand where the teachings on "covering" or authority came from, likely because I was already a Christian when I joined EN and other foundations had been laid in the 2 1/2 years I had been a Christian before I joined. While I wasn't what I would consider a mature Christian by any stretch, the foundation did include a broader Biblical context.

(Message edited by ulyankee on October 21, 2006)

[ulyankee]

BTW, just curious... are you the same Jon Moseley who sometimes writes (or wrote?) for WorldNetDaily?

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Dust,
I have a friend who is an excellent business man, who thinks that Maranatha and EN are brilliant in their marketing, their branding. It seems to him like a franchise, with many profit centers. He is a Christian,by the way. He helped me to see, as we were both in this.}

[dust]

Hi Copper. Good morning to you.

Copper: I have a friend who is an excellent business man, who thinks that Maranatha and EN are brilliant in their marketing, their branding.

Dust: Perhaps, they are, but actually I know from a reliable source that they have made some big mistakes with their publications and they are NOT making a profit, but are at a loss with their discipleship books. They have had to shrink their staff in this area.

Now, the question begs, what are they marketing?

And, as far as branding, they also have terrible publicity/press. Now in the secular world, all publicity may be considered good publicity. That simply does not happen in religious ministries.

I wonder if they will eventually try to REBRAND again, away from EVERY NATION. Maranatha turns Morning Star turns Every Nation..turn (who knows),

Everytime they've changed the name or had to deal with a pastor, they've had to REPUBLISH the books....that cost money!

[freedom43]

ulyankee -- your question to Jon about World Net Daily roused my curiosity. We'll see if he answers you. I followed the links to this organization and a picture of that Jon Moseley: http://www.usseaportcommission.org/

Now, it's been close to 15 years since I saw the Jon Moseley from the DC Maranatha/Grace Covenant. And, it's a bad picture, but it appears to be the same guy to me -- or at least strongly resembles him. I debated whether to post this, but he is choosing to post on Factnet under a name/his name; so he must not care.

[40days40years]

freedom the jon you knew was he a very serious guy or a guy that liked to joke around?

[jonmoseley]

Another Brick in the wall objects to the Purple Book, saying:
Hello? What happened to the priesthood of the believer?

MY ANSWER: So now you attack ALL seminaries, ALL Bible Studies, ALL Christian radio, ALL Christian Television, ALL books in Christian bookstores, ALL guides for understanding the Bible.

WHAT A NUT YOU ARE! Simply because a church has a guide to help people study the Bible -- as do NEARLY ALL CHURCHES -- you expose your complete craziness on this subject.

Let's face it, you have totally lost it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And my view is that the primary and most valuable tool to hand a new believer is not the Purple Book...BUT, a Bible (NKJV), dictionary and concordance.

MY ANSWER: And 100% of everyone in EN / MSI / MCM would agree with that.

Clearly you NEVER attended EN if you now suggest otherwise.

But ALL churches have aids, whether as new believer classes or as bible study guides, to MAKE SURE people actually READ and FOCUS ON those topics that are important.

Clearly, to my mind, you have exposed yourself as someone PRETENDING to be an former EN member or attendee. While I can accept that others may have had experiences different from mine, THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY YOU COULD MAKE SUCH COMMENTS IF YOU EVER ACTUALLY ATTENDED EN.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi All,
We should be careful here, it well may be someone pretending to be the named gentleman, an attorney at all. No way this is an attorney's cogent discussion of the facts. Mr.Mosley talks to congressmen, maybe ours at that. This is a pretender, I think.}

[40days40years]

very good advice.

[jonmoseley]

BRICK displays his PREJUDICES and HATRED by FALSELY misrepresenting what I said. He writes:

my comment: Hello? Why are all these disciples captured by EN's efforts and machinery not spiritually growing up????

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MY ANSWER (Moseley) Not only did I never say that but it is also 100% FALSE.

THE FACT IS that EN members were FREQUENTLY encoruaged to STUDY DEEPER by attending the 2 year Bible School, and by other means. They were frequently urged to study their Bible -- ON THEIR OWN without anyone interpreting it for them -- as well as to read all sorts of NON-EN Christian books. They were urged to study deeper all the time.

I can't tell you how often leaders passionately encouraged people to consider a 2 year period of intense Bible study through their VLI later named ENLI.

I seriously considered whether I should also sign up and attend that ENLI/VLI. I didn't only because I became convinced that I ALREADY KNEW after my own 20 years what was being taught.

NOTE, you hypocrites, that I WAS PERFECTLY FREE TO DECLINE, and I ultimately DID decline the offer... without the slightest difficulty or question from anyone.

What I found -- for me -- was that I ALREADY KNEW ALL OF THAT 100 times over, and I did not need someone to tell me all over again what I had studied repeatedly for 20 years.

Metro Morning Star was AGRESSIVELY seeking to teach everyone all aspects of the Bible while I was there, including some truly deep sermons by J.C. that seriously made me consider staying.

But -- having a 20 year headstart on most everyone in the room -- they were simply moving too slowly for me.

And I was dealing with some very difficult tough times that required some INTENSIVE help right at that time.

In other words, I was a "HIGH MAINTENANCE" church member requiring a lot of resources from the leadership.

A large church is simply not equipped to handle that.

A small church, where the pastor is not so busy, is what I needed at that point in time.

BRICK, you just plainly are a "SHILL" who is not a Christian in the slightest.

You are a wolf among the sheep, seeking whom you may devour with your lies.

I say that because you so aggressively LEAP from what WAS NOT SAID to a bizarre, vitriolic attack that is TOTALLY FALSE.

Your eagerness to find any fodder for attacking, rather than learning the truth, reveals you in my mind as a poseur out to simply harm Jesus' church universal, across the board.

[dust]

FROM FACTNET
Remember FACTNet Inc. treats all message postings on its message boards as the opinions of the message posters.

We draw the line when people try to "re-victimize" people who have left cults or toxic organizations. We do not abide by people who attempt to chase people off this discussion board by endless harassment. Culprits will be banned.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/FactLogoSmall.gif

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

jon,
i am not a nut.

i am a former member of EN.

i was a member of Bethel (EN's mother church) for several years.

i am not a hypocrite.

i am not a wolf among sheep.

i am a Christian.

i am not a poseur.

-Brick

[dust]

And, I'll verify the reputation and character of Brick....

[dust]

Jon,
Come on, your name calling is a prime example of abusive behavior. If you don't stop, we'll get you kicked off factnet for REVICTIMIZATION. So, if you want to intelligently discuss doctrinal issus, etc. fine. If not, and you continue to name call abused sheep then you will be reported to factnet.

People HAVE BEEN removed from participating for these types of behaviors.

Also, stop duplicating your posts. Just TRUST that it went through.

[forword]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

THE FACT IS that EN members were FREQUENTLY encoruaged to STUDY DEEPER by attending the 2 year Bible School, and by other means. They were frequently urged to study their Bible -- ON THEIR OWN without anyone interpreting it for them -- as well as to read all sorts of NON-EN Christian books. They were urged to study deeper all the time.

I can't tell you how often leaders passionately encouraged people to consider a 2 year period of intense Bible study through their VLI later named ENLI. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

We all speak from our own personal experiences.

At Bethel, It is true that they encourage deeper study through VLI. However, VLI, like the Purple Book, does not teach the whole coucel of God. It is slanted and unbalanced and teaches what they want you to know. Once again, not a word about taking care of widows and orphans and feeding the hungry.

It is wonderful if they encouraged you to study the Bible on your own. They also taught that at Bethel when Ray McCollum was still at ther. But when he left, so did the encouragement to study the word on your own.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

NOTE, you hypocrites, that I WAS PERFECTLY FREE TO DECLINE, and I ultimately DID decline the offer... without the slightest difficulty or question from anyone.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Hypocrite...very strong accusation Jon.

It is also true that anyone was free to decline VLI. The truth is, they don't really care so much about the non-sharps who choose just to sit in the pew and give their tithes. In fact, most pew sitters are blissfully unaware of any of this stuff. They are after the sharps, the ones that will pay for VLI and want to get involved in ministry. Once you are on that track, that is when you start seeing and hearing the heretical teachings that are often hidden from the rank and file members.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

BRICK, you just plainly are a "SHILL" who is not a Christian in the slightest.

You are a wolf among the sheep, seeking whom you may devour with your lies.

I say that because you so aggressively LEAP from what WAS NOT SAID to a bizarre, vitriolic attack that is TOTALLY FALSE.

Your eagerness to find any fodder for attacking, rather than learning the truth, reveals you in my mind as a poseur out to simply harm Jesus' church universal, across the board.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Whooooaaaa there cowboy! Just who is doing the attacking here! Go back and read Brick's post and then read your own. Frankly, Brick has much more credibility on this board than you. Calling Brick, who has been a steady, solid, regular poster here, a SHRILL just lost you any chance of credibility with me. You are the one name calling and frankly, making no logical sense. I see no love of Chirst, I hear no concern for the sheep. I just see someone who wants to defend an abusive cult and attack the ones seeking to hold up the truth.

[philiprosenthal]

Guys. Both sides. Please lets turn down the heat on this discussion. I am interested in hearing the answer to Jon's question. Lets stick to the issues and take the attention off the personalities. Jon has added a lot of interesting comments to the Reformation Station web site www.everynationreform.com (http://www.everynationreform.com)

I am sure he could add lots of interesting ideas to FactNet too.

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

thank you, dear dust and forword. i appreciate your support.

-brick

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

thank you, dear dust and forword. i appreciate your support.

-brick

[wisedove]

welcome back, philip
forgive me if you were never gone, it just seems like I haven't seen you post much lately.

[jonmoseley]

Perhaps we can all see what is really going on here in a "teachable moment."

I said that I left Every Nation because it was not meeting my needs, that Brett Fuller was focusing on getting as many people saved as possible.

TO WHICH BRICK REPLIED, LEAPING TO A NEGATIVE CONCLUSION:

my comment: Hello? Why are all these disciples captured by EN's efforts and machinery not spiritually growing up????

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MY COMMENT: Not only is Brick's hyperbolic response completely in a different universe from what I said, it reveals a mind SEARCHING for a way to attack Every Nation.

What does that tell us?

[wisedove]

Jon,
I am jumping in and will share once again some things that I have already shared here...Everyone who has read this, feel free to skip right over this post...

I, for one, did not come here to attack EN. I went to a relatively new church in Louisiana that began about 7 years ago. Before I had even attended it for a year, they joined EN, and the CHURCH CHANGED....sure, it grew, but it was no longer allowing the Holy Spirit to flow, or have His way. Many things became very controlling, like ASSIGNING people to certain groups, saying what is allowed to be taught in these groups, everyone having to be on the same page doing the same series, or book. In a leadership meeting, I specifically asked why we would not be allowed to teach what the Lord had been showing us in our private devotions during the week from His Word. I was told that we were not to teach this way, but we were only to teach "approved" material from books, etc.

I didn't need this board to show me the ERROR of the way things ended up at that church. I can go on and on talking about the love of money, the cliques, the following of men and not God, etc. but for the sake of time and a serious neck-ache, I will not...

After praying for 5 years for eyes to be opened, and for God to have His way there, and for blinders to be removed off of people's eyes, and for them to break away from this ministry that CHANGED OUR CHURCH, I ended up being pulled out by the Lord, only to find out my prayers were in deed answered, two weeks after I left, it was in the works that my church pulled out of EN. Yet, God for whatever reason still pulled us out before this knowledge (knowledge to this day that is still only limited to a few people, for this exodus has been done and kept a secret.)

I decided to google EN, over a year ago, and came across factnet then. During prayer, and seeking the Lord for answers, I googled EN and found this site, which only confirmed what i had been discerning all of those years.

I'm going to take an advil. (or 2)

[jonmoseley]

DUST wrote:
People HAVE BEEN removed from participating for these types of behaviors

My response:

I have no doubt that those who do not walk in the light hate the light and cannot come into the light.

WHO IS THE MIND CONTROL practitioner here?

WHO is censoring information?

WHO is trying to manipulate by controlling access to different points of view?

I am telling you that there is a completely different side to your experiences.

Yet instead of dealing with it, you want to CLOSE OUT all opinions different from your own.

Take a long look in the mirror.

What does that say about you, and where you are spiritually, that you want to CENSOR opinions different from your own?

Brick showed a mind SEARCHING for any hook in what I said to try to accuse Every Nation. That is not a sincere mind seeking truth or healing or anything else, but an attack dog looking for the nearest sharp object in the room.

I know the type from politics and the courtroom. This is a person SEEKING a chance to sink a knife into Every Nation leaders, not someone looking for the truth or for healing.

[40days40years]

jon why don't you go back to Every Nation if you like it so much?

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

jon,
i don't give hyperbolic responses.

i am not in a different universe.

i am not searching for a way to attack EN.

[jonmoseley]

Brick writes:
i am not searching for a way to attack EN.

MY RESPONSE: Then WHY would you LEAP from my personal account that I needed a deeper church -after 20 years as a Christian -- but Metro Morning Star was focusing on converts and new believers, young in the Lord, to accusing EN of not allowing people to mature spiritually?

I realize you may have some independent reason for saying that, which I expect would be equally inaccurate.

But surely your LEAP from my personal reasons for wanting a "graduate school" type of church because I was having some tough times personally to saying that EN holds people back is a mind BENT ON ATTACKING Every Nation, not seeking to find the truth.

YOU COULD HAVE asked a question "What was it that you found inadequate" if seeking the truth was what was in your heart.

[wisedove]

40,
You are correct.

Man, things are crazy on here today, huh? I haven't felt this stirred up in a while...

[freedom43]

Jon -- to play the devil's advocate. Do you think they let you go so easliy because you were "a problem child." You have admited that you were taking up time from the leadership and tithing elsewhere most of the time. What value would they have in chasing after you/keeping you? If they are grooming "leaders" -- and you're a pew sitter, not a rich Redskin then...

I know it bothered me that no one called me when I left in 1992. I had given many years of my life to that church -- as you said elsewhere, I did it unto the Lord and believe my reward is in heaven...but it didn't feel right. It hurt. Back then if you left, they said something was wrong with you and you were walking away from God/your destiny, etc. if you left. Yet, no one called. Jesus said leave the 99 sheep and go after the one.

[wisedove]

funny you mention that, freedom. I just got off of the phone with Wildwood and I told her the SAME THING ABOUT the sheep thing and not getting asked why we left, or how things are, or even acknowledging that we left, after over 6 years of being in leadership at the church I went to.

More confirmation.

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

jon wrote: "I realize you may have some independent reason for saying that, which I expect would be equally inaccurate."

my comment: then there is no reason why i should state any reason if you have already judged my history on this board and past EN experience as no basis to provide an alternative view of EN that differs from your view.

[jonmoseley]

Jon -- to play the devil's advocate. Do you think they let you go so easliy because you were "a problem child."

MY RESPONSE: On the contrary, I see that you (collectively) can't get your story straight. If you read Tik's blog and everything else here it is dissent that (supposedly) is not tolerated. NOW, you flip that around and say that dissent is ignored. You can't have it both ways.

Is the problem that dissent is tolerated and only those eager to conform are groomed? Or is the problem that dissent is opposed?

You are REALLY REACHING HERE to find any way to always consistently arrive at once conclusion... There must be something bad.

May I suggest that you do yourself a favor? Rent any number of similar movies: Rocky (1), the Karate Kid, oh dear others like that.

What these show is that someone WHO WANTS to win the gold medal and submits themself to a master or expert for that purpose is going to be treated very hard, to whip them into shape. But it is a voluntary submission for a goal. In fact, does not Paul say exactly that?

Hire yourself a personal (exercise) trainer. Do you expect them to go easy on you? Don't you pay them to NOT go easy on you?

By your theory above, Metro Morning Star is grooming those who AGREE to be groomed, who WANT to be part of their system, and NOT bothering those who do NOT choose to voluntarily conform and go for the gold medal.

And your problem with that is... what?

[wisedove]

Speaking of theories, Jon, it is my THEORY that someone sent you to this site to stir things up around here. Once again, how long were you a READER of this thread line before you decided to post with a vengeance today?

Who told you to come over here to stir things up? Who told you about this thread?

[jonmoseley]

Speaking of theories, Jon, it is my THEORY that someone sent you to this site to stir things up around here.

MY RESPONSE: You are correct. His Name is Jesus Christ.

Someday He is going to be asking you about the harm you have done to His church (universal), driving people away.

I really DON'T give a hoot if your efforts EMPTIED OUT Every Nation and it closed down, AS LONG AS all of those Christians all find a home in strong, equally-serious churches or better.

But you KNOW that is not what is going to happen. You are disillusioning and demoralizing and harming real believers. Do you remember what Jesus said about someone who causes one of his little one's to stumble. That does NOT mean you should not speak out! But you had BETTER BE RIGHT when you do....

[wisedove]

Funny, jon, the way you are carrying on so strongly today makes me really wonder how you can say Jesus Christ sent you here to STIR THINGS UP.

I have not done any harm driving ANY one away from their church! We are not causing people to stumble by sharing our convictions and how we were led out of these churces. The sheep know His voice, and we follow HIM. That's what I have done. Praise God I have rediscovered Him afresh in a new church that allows Him to be there.

[wisedove]

P.S. Beleive me, I have been right in everything I have ever said. The very fact that my former church also left EN right around the time I left that church is proof that I was right all along. Hopefully, things will be better as a result of not having this covering over them anymore. Perhaps God is back in His rightful place as HEAD of HIS BODY.

[jonmoseley]

WISEDOVE wrote:
funny you mention that, freedom. I just got off of the phone with Wildwood and I told her the SAME THING ABOUT the sheep thing and not getting asked why we left, or how things are, or even acknowledging that we left, after over 6 years of being in leadership at the church I went to.

More confirmation.

MY RESPONSE: BUT CONFIRMATION OF WHAT?

You are saying that it is SIMULTANEOUSLY TRUE (1) that EN members are tightly controlled, and (2) EN members are NOT tightly controlled.

Do you ever encounter truth that causes you to re-evaluate your beliefs?

In your responses, EVERY fact is confirmation to you of CONTRADICTORY, mutually-exclusive theories.

[wisedove]

BUT CONFIRMATION OF WHAT?

Confirmation of HEARING THE VOICE OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!

Once again, you are evading my very direct question....how long did you read here before you decided to post?

[freedom43]

Jon -- I can only speak of my personal experience in Maranatha and then Grace Covenant -- 12 years total. I left Brett Fuller's church after being a member there for about 8 years -- contributing a significant amount of money and service during that time. The last straw for me was that he would not open the books or answer my questions about the finances of the church or about letting a wealthy member abuse other sheep. See my posts here, Parts I and II.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/22587.html?1158274360

You say the books are opened now. I am skeptical. This story is about the worst kind of abuse, control and manipulation.

For years before I finally left, I heard person after person maligned by the leadership if they left to go to another church. Things they said to the pastor in private counseling were used to paint them as malcontents or demon oppressed. (So-n-so always had a problem with authority anyway -- fill in blank.) There was no healthy way to leave for most. Once you left, you were shunned. Later, it seems some were allowed to just sneak away and stop coming. I am convinced that they only let that happen with people who they did not view as worth the energy to keep in. People they figured were never going to be rich or perhaps were not viewed as having the kind of potential they were looking for.

[jonmoseley]

freedom43 WROTE (clearly referring to Maranatha Church on Capitol Hill in Washington DC and its successor Grace Covenant Church in Herndon/Oakton):
For years before I finally left, I heard person after person maligned by the leadership if they left to go to another church. Things they said to the pastor in private counseling were used to paint them as malcontents or demon oppressed.

MOSELEY: In what forum? Surely you don't mean in open meetings. I KNOW for a fact that did not happen! On the contrary, any time it became necessary to explain someone's departure Mark Caulk and Brett Fuller both were INCREDIBLY polite and decorous... almost too much.

AND DO YOU RECALL THAT THOSE MEETINGS WERE TAPED?

*I* was one of the ones running the sound board at the back of the room. HALF THE TIME I WAS TAPING THOSE VERY MEETINGS on audiocassette, even the smaller meetings such as on Sunday night when we used only the TOA amplifier.

I don't know if all of those tapes survive, but before you go around saying things like this, don't forget that those tapes may be right there for all to hear. Rememember that people could and did request COPIES of those tapes, and so who knows who has extra COPIES in their possession right now of any meetings you are referring to?

And not only did *I* personally tape half of those meetings during a significant part of that time period, but of course I WAS THERE LISTENING as well while running the tape recorder.

So, I KNOW that did not happen in ANY open meeting.

Now, did it happen OUTSIDE my hearing? Well, that's impossible for me to say, of course.

BUT IF IT ONLY HAPPENED WHERE I COULD NOT HEAR, then where is the deterrent value? Where is the effect you describe? If someone is maligned only in secret, than how does that have the effect you mention?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Furthermore, half the people on this Board are screaming COVER UP! because they were NOT TOLD all the sordid details about Paul Daniels.

So damned if you do, damned if you don't.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
freedom43 wrote:
The last straw for me was that he would not open the books or answer my questions about the finances of the church...

MOSELEY: Well, I could be wrong on this, but I remember holding corporate meetings when we discussed whether to change the name and whether to move away from the city when we also had a complete run-down of the finances from Brett Fuller. I grant you I was not fixing that in my mind with the expectation of talking about it later, but I seem to recall being given that kind of information. I know we talked about how much we were giving to foreign missioniaries, etc.

[jonmoseley]

You are flip-flopping around. You say that EN is wrong because it is too controlling and manipulative. I then give you my personal story showing that, at least in my experience (maybe not in yours), THAT DID NOT HAPPEN.

So, now you tack to the other side of the lake and start saying "SEE, EN neglects people."

How is it possible that your original thesis (EN is too controlling and manipulative) can be proven right by evidence that EN COULDN'T CARE LESS if people come or go?

COULD IT BE THAT YOU ARE WRONG?

Even when confronted with direct evidence of the opposite of what you say, you are STUBBORN.

Either way you are determined to find something wrong with EN. It is either too controlling or too negligent. The imperative is: FIND SOMETHING WRONG, whatever it may be.

I did not know you were asking a direct question instead of a comment (or question as a way of making a point). However, I read for 5 days while I was unable to get the stupid system to register me so I could post.

[jonmoseley]

FORWORD WROTE:
Lets assume for a moment that every principle taught in the proof text of the Purple Book is correct. If that was only used as a starting point to then launch the new believer into a study of the whole Bible, that would be great. However, we were told not to bring our Bibles to cell groups, but rather to keep going over the Purple Book, or worse yet, EN's other discipleship books that were even more watered down.

MOSELEY: I don't know where my Purple Book is (which again I did not take too seriously, because I had already been a Christian for 18 years and didn't feel I needed any foundation; nobody asked me or cared if I ever even owned one, much less cracked it open, and I didn't take it very seriously either).

HOWEVER, I WILL BET YOU RIGHT NOW, sight unseen, that when I find my copy of the Purple Book or any other copy...

... IT WILL EXPLICITLY TELL BELIEVERS OF THE IMPORTANCE OF REGULARLY READING THEIR BIBLE.

Do you want to put $50 on that right now?

The bet is: THE PURPLE BOOK EXPLICITLY TELLS CHRISTIANS TO READ THEIR BIBLE REGULARLY.

BET or NO BET?

And don't take a cheap side trip on gambling. THIS IS NOT ABOUT MONEY. It is about HONESTY, getting you to stop playing fast and loose with the facts.

I have not checked yet. So I am at your mercy.

YOU TAKIN' THAT BET or not?

[40days40years]

jon are you the guy from Worldnetdaily fame? Are there two Jon Moseleys? Maybe you have answered this already? You do have me completely convinced that you are MCM/MSI/EN. A rather special bird you are.

[jonmoseley]

Isn't it rather creepy that you are trying to research me? Most on this Board have chosen to remain anonymous, which I believe is entirely unbiblical when criticizing a church, a ministry, or a brother or sister. I could be prying from various clues into finding the real identities behind those anonymous posts, but I don't.

Instead, I used my real name, as I believe all CHristians must in this type of situation.

But are not behaving like a cult now? You are investigating who is speaking? Stalking people? WHO IS THE REAL CULT?

I am a private attorney in Virginia working on other business matters.

[wisedove]

Where is the RIGHTEOUS indignation?

[dust]

Jon Mosely
My spouse and I are on this board together. Everyone in EN knows it's us. We served in leadership and LOVED and STILL LOVE everyone. I miss them. I grieve for them. And, because of that, I will not do what they do to themself...which is hold back truth and cover sin. We love them enough to tell them the truth, We believe most are victims of an organization. We also believe we will dance in heaven with them. But, we have no choice, but to DEFEND the GOSPEL, and to STAND STRONG that CHrist is the HEAD and it is CHRIST who establishes the faith.

I will stand on any corner and speak, I will meet with any leader at any time and have met with Rice. We LOVE all the leaders with our heart.

We love them enough to tell them the truth.

[dust]

Why Anonymous?

There are crackpots who come to sites like this. It is our own protection

Sounds like you are making threats. I will remind you that Factnet
is not full free press. If you want that, write a book, get a blog, go on CNN.

Factnet can and will and has expelled posters, as we live by their rules which you are starting to cross over. Please refresh yourself with the rules of posting to Factnet. It is a myth that there is unlimited free press here.

[dust]

<font size="+2">IDENTITIES ARE BEING STOLEN...PEOPLE ARE HAVING CONVERSATIONS WITH JONMOSELY AND IT'S NOT THEM</font>

[40days40years]

Really this thread should be in Teaching and Bible practices. Jon I cannot help it if you have a semi famous name. Oh great more christian attorneys. I remember being dismayed when an enthusiastic young man in Maranatha went off to law school.

Bye the way Jon you seem to have overlooked the most controversial place here. Jon why don't you go down and click on EN BLOGS. Tik has about a dozen down there and the best ones are near the bottom, believe me there are many hundreds of posts from fans of MCM/MSI/EN down there. Tik deleted your comments on his blog he can't do that there. Have a go at it but you may blow a gasket.

Why would they steal so many identities they got Matt Hatters I heard and other cuckoo birds ID's. It may not even have anything to do with EN, maybe an experiment about cyber church splits?