Q Is it wrong to SACRIFICE materially for Jesus

[jonmoseley]

Again, I perceive buried in a lot of criticisms of Every Nation, theological disagreements that are being hidden and wrapped in criticisms of just one church. (But if you look at the other boards on FactNet,you see that the target church keeps changing, but always the same criticisms.)

SO, I encourage people to focus on another theological issue that I believe is animating this debate and these concerns.

Q: IS IT WRONG TO SACRIFICE MATERIAL SUCCESS to promote God's Kingdom?

Q: If you give your time and heart and resources and efforts to God in your heart, is any of that "lost" ? If you are trying to serve God the best way you know how are your sacrifices FORGOTTEN by God?

Q: Do you have to find a perfect church to be a part of before you can serve God and do things to advance God's Kingdom?

Q: Does God see your heart in serving Him, even if those you are serving with or under do not take what you give to God and use it properly?

Q: Can anyone else steal your reward in heaven for serving God from your heart, by advancing God's Kingdom?

Q: Should we judge the correctness of your walk with God, and your sacrifices with God, based on what other people around you say?

Q: Is the measure of the rightness of your walk with God determined by your material success and happiness in this present world?

WHAT I HEAR OVER AND OVER HERE and on journal's like Tik's is the sacrifices you made, putting Jesus ahead of material success in this world, AS A FORM OF ABUSE... rather than the commandments of Jesus Christ Himself, as the Bible teaches us.

Is JESUS CHRIST LORD OF ALL?

Should He be?

What I hear here are a lot of burnt-out people who have gone to the other extreme, now claiming that they should put the materials things of this world FIRST in their lives.

You say you should have listened to family and friends who told you not to do things for God. Why?

You say you lost time? Why? Were you serving God? Or Men - IN YOUR HEART, not theirs? If you were serving God in your heart, is any of that LOST?

Jesus Christ clearly said that no one who has given up anything, houses, wives, barns, cattle, that fancy car, that fancy job, etc., etc., for Him and His Name's sake shall fail to receive 100 times as much in this present age and in the age to come.

DO YOU BELIEVE WHAT JESUS SAID?

(Oh, boy, I'm not saying it's easy. I struggle all the time. But you cannot believe Jesus' words if you reject them and don't even try.)

Jesus said that anyone who puts his hand to the plow and turns back (e.g., longing for the former life of what lays behind) is not worthy to be a disciple.

WHOSE IDEAS ARE THESE?

These are plainly the words of Jesus Christ.

So, do you now reject those ideas?

Why do you blame one church for the words of Jesus Christ?

Is it right to sacrifice material things in this world and wordly comforts for God, or not?

[mcmstaff78]

Please quote where people have said they should not do things for God? Please quote where they have said they should not sacrifice for God?

What has been said is that people should not "sacrifice" for the enrichment of cheap, self-appointed hucksters - "sincere" or otherwise.

You're real good at throwing out questions, but not so great on the follow-up.

[wiseasaserpentgentleasadove]

I stayed (knew I was called by God to be there) and interceded in prayer the things He allowed me to see that were not right. I served 6 years, faithfully, because I was serving THE LORD.

I knew He was going to be pulling us out at some point, and when He did, we left without turning back. I have family members still there. They don't see things (perhaps are just refusing to see things) the way they are. It was sort of an eye opener when I left, and found out 2 weeks later that my church pulled out of EN, I had to hold onto that information for a while before I shared that with my family, because no one knew of this major change, and some still don't even know to this day.

It only confirmed everything I had prayed for all of those years. Perhaps that's why I was there, to intercede on behalf of this change, and when they decided to pull out of EN, I had already been taken out of the church. You see, I desire to be where God wants me, to do what He says, and to Say what He wants me to say. I asked Him to lead and guide my life. I give Him the reigns. I did question why He pulled me out and THEN let me see that my prayers were answered because the church left EN along with 4 others, but He hasn't let me know WHY. He doesn't have to. I just thought I'd ask. Sometimes, His answer is "you don't need to know." Perhaps my job there was done. Perhpas He knew I'd be tempted to stay if I knew of their plans to leave EN.

I don't know. I just know that I want to be where God wants me to be in His Body. Does it hurt at times? YES. I cried HARD when I found out my prayers were answered because they had left EN, but it was done secretly, with no announcement, so I've had to keep things to myself, because I care about the people there and God's plan.

[40days40years]

jon: Q: IS IT WRONG TO SACRIFICE MATERIAL SUCCESS to promote God's Kingdom?

40: I am sure the lower ranking members do it all the time but the upper guys don't really seem to sacrifice material success all that much.

jon: Q: Does God see your heart in serving Him, even if those you are serving with or under do not take what you give to God and use it properly?

40: major button pushing, yes and no. My guess is that if the Christian is young and being taken advantage of but goes along becaue he/she do not want to offend the Lord, the service will be viewed as for the Lord by the Lord. (just my guess)

If the Christian is older and decides to go along with an abusive system? Your not going to get brownie points automatically for that unless the Lord specifically told you to go along, not confront, serve the people there....etc.

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

JonMoseley: Jesus Christ clearly said that no one who has given up anything, houses, wives, barns, cattle, that fancy car, that fancy job, etc., etc., for Him and His Name's sake shall fail to receive 100 times as much in this present age and in the age to come.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
We did give up our jobs and our money and our families and our energy and our time and, in some cases, years of our lives....and while we were in EN we received no blessing in return--no life, no closeness to God, no joy, no energy, no peace, no house, no farm, no money, no Spirit. If we had been sacrificing to God, we would have received the blessing promised in that verse. The fact that we did not is only further proof that what we were serving and sacrificing to was not God.

However, after having left Maranatha and EN, many of us have been blessed. Various people here have been blessed with families, with financial stability (I don't say we're wealthy), with joy, with peace, with a deeper spiritual maturity, with closeness to God. We left EN and then we received the blessing promised in that verse.

[wiseasaserpentgentleasadove]

Amen, J2.

[maranatha1984]

Thanks J2 well said.

Jon equates God with MCM and EN, based on the e-mails of his I posted... theoretically (since his hypothesis is that if you sacrifice for the most evil preacher in the world you are serving Jesus (these are his words) those who murdered and committed suicide in Jonestown serving under pastor Jim Jones were serving CHrist.

Jon you are either really naive or really decieved. We are sacrificing NOT FOR GOD OR CHRIST BUT FOR BOB AND JOE.

[miltietoast]

thanks for taking the bullets tik
jon-the widow was commended for her offering to God, administered by a system of whitewashed pharisees.Many sheep have been wounded and slaughtered by the phariseeical EN and MCM leaders.Those who lay burdens on the sheep and will not lift a finger. Woe to them and you (the blind defending the blind)

[mcmstaff78]

<font color="ff0000">But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.</font>(Mat 23:11-15)
}

[miltietoast]

mcm you say it much better than me lol

you got it by the tail now drag the whole body!

NMV (New Milty Version)....you compass sea and land first class,eat the finest foods, stay at the finest hotels,play golf (minister) at finest courses,allow your poor proselytes to pay for everything,allow the proselytes to raise, feed,clothe and teach your,prodiginy,all to get one more offering.
Mosely at least you and yours get a twofold return in hell-not bad champ

[wiseasaserpentgentleasadove]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

you got it by the tail now drag the whole body!<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Miltie,
this is your special phrase, but I still don't get it.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lame.gif

[miltietoast]

wise
you got the main point(tail) now expound on it (drag the whole body)

[wiseasaserpentgentleasadove]

got it! i thought it was code for some copy/paste technique..http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lame.gif

[freedom43]

Freedom expounding on NMV: Go ye into all the world and recruit the big fish, i.e., the beautiful people, the wealthy people, the professional athletes who can help you dazzle/bring in more people so you can fleece the flock and pay for your lavish lifestyle. Let the small fish who tithe elsewhere go.

[matt_hatter]

"Jon equates God with MCM and EN"

This is the essence of this guy's problem. I am reading and seeing a man who is driven by a religious system, and has a narrow view of a relationship with Christ.

Because of your own warped view, you project your thinking on to others who simply see things differently. Your driven personality might drive you to an early grave; take a chill pill and that Carribean vacation I suggested. Might even meet a nice Island girl. Oh, have you thanked our friend for all those rides home from church yet??

[miltietoast]

freedom-- I see you have been reading my version.Have you paid royalties to me yet. Do you have my paypal acct?LOL
NMV footnotes say, "despise the little people and walk over them or through them for yea they are disposable"

Jon are you one of their throw away hirelings or do you come by your yapping naturally?

[jonmoseley]

Jon equates God with MCM and EN, based on the e-mails of his I posted...

MOSELEY: NO, not at all, but this reveals the real problem. The most important question is FROM WHOSE PERSPECTIVE are you looking at the situation?

1) God is looking at the young believer who has chosen (going to Tik's narrative) give up a relationship with a woman he cares about, give up activities he preferred, give up aspects of his education and his career (maybe not smart, for me or you, but there it is), etc., etc.

WHAT IS GOD's VIEW? Have you even CONSIDERED God in all of this?

DO YOU EVEN ACKNOWELDGE THERE IS A GOD? For WHO CARES what EN / MSI / MCM THINK!!!! You say I equate the church with God BUT CURIOUSLY GOD HIMSELF SEEMS TO HAVE VANISHED FROM YOUR MIND. Nowhere in what you describe is there an actual GOD participating in any of what you describe.

Does GOD see your sacrifices FOR HIM and react with pleasure and joy and appreciation?

2) God also sees that the leaders of the church are MIS-using the money and sacrifice that the Believer is offering up -- in his heart -- TO GOD HIMSELF.

DO YOU THINK GOD IS STUPID?????

Do you think God does not know the difference between the individual believer who is doing this to please God and serve God, as compared with the poor, incompetent, bad, or even evil leader who mis-uses the gifts?

In all seriousness, and not as a rhetorical come-back at all, I believe it is YOU who confuse the church with God.

I say that you sacrficed to GOD, not to a church.

YOU focus on whether your sacrfice was made in the right church.

I say that God is not limited by what church you are in, or even if you are in a gulag as a prisoner for Christ being forced to serve an evil master.

God is not limited by such things.

Do you think God is so stupid that He cannot see you are trying to serve Him.

Do you think God is limited and hand-cuffed based on what church you are attending.

You say that you did not receive blessing while in Maranatha.

NOWHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY that the blessing from your sacrifice will be instantaneous, microwave fast, plastic-fantastic.

QUITE THE CONTRARY, it is very clear that "through faith and patience we inherit the promises" and God goes out of his way -- to my great personal annoyance but I know I am wrong -- to FORCE US TO WAIT for what we ask for and want.

It is part of the growth process that blessings are NOT immediate.

So it is of no account when your blessing came.

For those who were martyred for their faith NONE of their blessing comes on this side of eternity.

Rather if a church is right or wrong, that must be judged by the Bible on other grounds, NOT based on whether you are blessed.

If someone is overwhelmingly blessed in a church IT COULD STILL BE AN UNBIBLICAL CHURCH in spite of the blessings being experienced.

You cannot judge the rightness of your actions or your church by whether you are blessed.

However, NONE of your sacrifices made unto God in your hear are ever lost. GOD DOES NOT FORGET.

[jonmoseley]

Jon equates God with MCM and EN, based on the e-mails of his I posted...

MOSELEY: NO, not at all, but this reveals the real problem. The most important question is FROM WHOSE PERSPECTIVE are you looking at the situation?

1) God is looking at the young believer who has chosen (going to Tik's narrative) give up a relationship with a woman he cares about, give up activities he preferred, give up aspects of his education and his career (maybe not smart, for me or you, but there it is), etc., etc.

WHAT IS GOD's VIEW? Have you even CONSIDERED God in all of this?

DO YOU EVEN ACKNOWELDGE THERE IS A GOD? For WHO CARES what EN / MSI / MCM THINK!!!! You say I equate the church with God BUT CURIOUSLY GOD HIMSELF SEEMS TO HAVE VANISHED FROM YOUR MIND. Nowhere in what you describe is there an actual GOD participating in any of what you describe.

Does GOD see your sacrifices FOR HIM and react with pleasure and joy and appreciation?

2) God also sees that the leaders of the church are MIS-using the money and sacrifice that the Believer is offering up -- in his heart -- TO GOD HIMSELF.

DO YOU THINK GOD IS STUPID?????

Do you think God does not know the difference between the individual believer who is doing this to please God and serve God, as compared with the poor, incompetent, bad, or even evil leader who mis-uses the gifts?

In all seriousness, and not as a rhetorical come-back at all, I believe it is YOU who confuse the church with God.

I say that you sacrficed to GOD, not to a church.

YOU focus on whether your sacrfice was made in the right church.

I say that God is not limited by what church you are in, or even if you are in a gulag as a prisoner for Christ being forced to serve an evil master.

God is not limited by such things.

Do you think God is so stupid that He cannot see you are trying to serve Him.

Do you think God is limited and hand-cuffed based on what church you are attending.

You say that you did not receive blessing while in Maranatha.

NOWHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY that the blessing from your sacrifice will be instantaneous, microwave fast, plastic-fantastic.

QUITE THE CONTRARY, it is very clear that "through faith and patience we inherit the promises" and God goes out of his way -- to my great personal annoyance but I know I am wrong -- to FORCE US TO WAIT for what we ask for and want.

It is part of the growth process that blessings are NOT immediate.

So it is of no account when your blessing came.

For those who were martyred for their faith NONE of their blessing comes on this side of eternity.

Rather if a church is right or wrong, that must be judged by the Bible on other grounds, NOT based on whether you are blessed.

If someone is overwhelmingly blessed in a church IT COULD STILL BE AN UNBIBLICAL CHURCH in spite of the blessings being experienced.

You cannot judge the rightness of your actions or your church by whether you are blessed.

However, NONE of your sacrifices made unto God in your hear are ever lost. GOD DOES NOT FORGET.

[vanguard]

Actually according to Fred Bradford, he said this before, You obey me then you obey Phil Bonasso, then you obey God.

And Phil Bonasso have told to the congregation, NOBODY IS ALLOWED TO PREACH THE GOSPEL UNTIL THEY FINISHED VLI.

Phil Bonasso have made himself GREATER than God.

[mcmstaff78]

Jon - what about all those who blow themselves (and others) up, believing they are serving God? How does God view that?

Sorry, you cannot serve the devil, thinking you're serving God, and expect God to reward you for it. They are deceived in their hearts and follow after the deception, loving it more than they loved God.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:(Rom 1:18-26)

[jonmoseley]

MCMSTAFF78 ASKED: Jon - what about all those who blow themselves (and others) up, believing they are serving God? How does God view that? UNQUOTE

MOSELEY responding: Well, first NO ONE is saved by their works. One is either saved or not. So they must be a born again Christian, or else no matter what works they engage in (Mother Teresa included) they are going to hell, as any of us would.

So you postulate someone who is a true born-again Christian, with the Holy Spirit to guide them, and who blows themselves up?

First, we are talking about someone who SINCERELY believes they are serving God. If someone knows they are not serving God, but their political agenda, God will judge their heart.

Anyone who is sincerely seeking to serve Jesus Christ knows that killing people is wrong. So they are NOT sincerely serving God.

The people who PRETEND to be serving God while serving their own agenda (including many Christians in politics right now) do not impress God one bit.

But God judges the heart, NOT the results.

YOU CANNOT JUDGE sacrifice to God based on whether it worked or failed, whether it looks good or not.

If someone sincerely WANTS to serve God, GOD KNOWS THAT and will never forget it.

That will not get you saved.

But you CANNOT be saved unless you are willing to declare that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD.

If you declare that Jesus Christ is Lord, and mean it, you are not going to blow people up. (I could defend this more fully but it is way off the topic.)

YOU CANNOT BE A CHRISITIAN without declaring Jesus Christ as Lord... for real.

And so ultimately you must TRUST GOD that your best efforts, groping through the darkness, will be received by God based on what you have in your heart.


If you sacrificed things in Maranatha BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO PLEASE BOB WEINER,then you have your reward. And you will not get any other.

If you sacrificed things in Maranatha BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO PLEASE GOD, then your sacrifice is an ETERNAL TREASURE waiting for you in heaven, that -- as Jesus said -- no moth can devour and no rust can destroy. NOTHING can diminish or take away that treasure.

The question is: WERE YOU IN IT to please Bob Weiner or to please God?

[mcmstaff78]

<font color="ff0000">Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:</font>(Mat 7:16-24)

Motivation is not enough. For an act, a service, to be morally good. First, the act must not be evil in itself. No matter how good one's intention, how much someone believes he is serving God, one cannot do that which comes under the condemnation of the Moral Law or transgresses the virtues of the Spirit (see Gal. 5).

Secondly, it must have a good end. Not only must the motive be good, but the intent and objective of the act must be good. When teaching regarding giving injects as it's object the material blessing of the giver, it fails this test.

Third, it must not be evil in it's circumstance. Even a good act or a morally neutral act, even if done for a good end, can be sinful if we fail to do it in the proper circumstances. Thus, sexual concourse between a husband and wife can be sinful if enacted in an improper manner, time, or place. Likewise, giving money that should more properly used for the paying of bills (debts that are owed to others) or the support of one's family is never morally good. It is theivery and morally no different from a pyramid or ponzi scheme.

And as has been testified to over and over (just exacly why aren't you posting in the EN Blog section under the "Jon Moseley where are you?" thread?) the leadership of MCM revolved around pleasing Bob Weiner because we were taught that obeying the leadership was obeying God.

(Message edited by mcmstaff78 on October 25, 2006)

[jonmoseley]

Alright, but under what you describe those SINCERE Christians who tried to serve God in MCM WILL NEVER LOSE THEIR REWARD.

Did Tik's sacrifices in order to evangelize meet your criteria described above? Absolutely!

Did those who talk about having lost time being in MCM satisfy those criteria? Absolutely!

Did MOST of the members of MCM satsify the criteria above (unless they knew they were serving men instead of God)? Absolutely

Once again, the focus here is on the individual believer. The question is whether an individual Christian should serve God, even sacrificing material things and material goals.

The question is NOT whether the leaders were right or wrong. God is not mocked. God will judge them. Indeed, a teacher incurs a STRICTER judgment the Bible says. So don't get off track.

The question is SHOULD YOU -- now -- place advancement of Jesus' Kingdom (the best you understand it) ahead of your personal material desires and agenda?

[jonmoseley]

I don't even know who Fred Bradford is, but if he sincerely said that and meant it, he is wrong. And I think I would qualify that as serious enough to disqualify him from ministry, until he is rehabilitiated.

I say that because anyone I knew in MCM or EN would have a heart attack if they heard anyone say anything like that.

[mcmstaff78]

I cannot agree with your "absolutelies" because only those people can know. I can say that much of what I observed did not agree with them, which is why I left.

Again, why aren't you discussing over in the "Jon Moseley where are you?" thread?

[jonmoseley]

Again, why aren't you discussing over in the "Jon Moseley where are you?" thread?

MOSELEY: Why would I? The problem with the toxic stew on this Board is that everything is jumbled together in a big mess. I am trying to separate out one issue at a time and explore what you believe was right or wrong about your experiences with MCM /MSI / EN and what you now believe is true or untrue about "correct" Christianity going forward.

I do not see anything on that thread that is meaningful enough to warrant a response, except that TIk has posted only about half of the emails I sent to him privately, in keeping with Matthew 18:15-17. I can go back and post the rest of the responses.

[mcmstaff78]

"Why would I?" Because it directly addresses the concerns you've raised. If they're so important, one would think you would want to engage Tik on more a neutral ground than his own blog. You can post to your heart's content and he can edit you.

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

JonMoseley: I don't even know who Fred Bradford is, but if he sincerely said that and meant it, he is wrong. And I think I would qualify that as serious enough to disqualify him from ministry, until he is rehabilitiated.

I say that because anyone I knew in MCM or EN would have a heart attack if they heard anyone say anything like that.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Fred Bradford is the pastor of the Palos Verdes church. He was discipled by Phil Bonasso himself. I find it troubling that a disciple of one of ENs "apostles" and the man chosen to be head pastor of the church Bonasso was based out of would spout such unbiblical nonsense.

[wisedove]

Jon Mosely,
Why are you here?

[robert_unknown]

Q: IS IT WRONG TO SACRIFICE MATERIAL SUCCESS to promote God's Kingdom?

does God NEED my material sacrifices to build his kingdom on earth? Is God building His kingdom through men building their own house?


Q: If you give your time and heart and resources and efforts to God in your heart, is any of that "lost" ? If you are trying to serve God the best way you know how are your sacrifices FORGOTTEN by God?

No. the question remains, is what I thought I have given to God REALLY a sacrifice for God? Or was I deceived and served MEN instead of God? remember Saul - He thought he sacrificed for God, but in fact his offering was CURSED because he sacrificed for MEN!


Q: Do you have to find a perfect church to be a part of before you can serve God and do things to advance God's Kingdom?

No. But the question remains: is MCM or EN building Gods kingdom at all? why do you think they build Gods kingdom?


Q: Does God see your heart in serving Him, even if those you are serving with or under do not take what you give to God and use it properly?

Yes. Definitely. The question is, shall i support with MY finances greedy people in their quest to enrich themselves? Can I serve God by serving false leaders? This implifies that the false leaders are a proxy for God, that God is taking my service for them as for him.


Q: Can anyone else steal your reward in heaven for serving God from your heart, by advancing God's Kingdom?

Have I served God and build his kingdom by what I did, only because it was labeled "christian"?



Q: Is the measure of the rightness of your walk with God determined by your material success and happiness in this present world?

No- preach this to Phil Bonasso and rice Brooks. They - along with others - model a wrong picture of blessing. They live in luxus and abuse others to serve them. They are the "aristocrates" who need to measure their succes by material things.

[robert_unknown]

conclusion:

it is not so that one sacrifies materialy "to jesus" only based on his believe that he has sacrified to him. how do we sacrifice to Jesus? is it enough to say "give to the Lord" and make the people believe it? or is it needed to use the money for Gods purpose?

Do i really give to God, when the money i gave is used for wrong purposes like absurd high salaries and senseless status symbols?

I am not so sure about it!

[dust]

12 The righteous God wisely considers the house of the wicked, Overthrowing the wicked for their wickedness.

13 Whoever shuts his ears to the cry of the poor Will also cry himself and not be heard.

Proverbs 21

[robert_unknown]

yesterday i had a good talk with a fellow christian brother who was doing the usher ministry for many years.

he told me some experiences with the high EN leaders that are giving a lot of insight into their mindset. and i can also remember much of these things...

the church here had at this time 250 members/ attendancies. and we had about 9 other churches and housechurches in the region with aprx. another 200-250 people.

every year we had a big conferend in Innsbruck. EN entered the arena and we had EN Europe conferences since, perhaps, 1998.

the conferences got more and more "EN" like, and in fall 2002 - the last Europe conference to my knowledge - was just a scandal!

- everything was ONLY in english, and at least half of the congregation came from america! never heared something about sensibilty, eh? is this american or is this EN? please tell me guys.

- no local pastor/ preacher... only the big Nasso telling us insightfull stories about his baaaad childhood at school. Big N by the way, doesnt even need a bible to preach... man - this guy is anointed! and of course Rice, and the others... who arent in ministry anymore...

- the american "friends" needed ushering for EVERYTHING! even despite the fact that the church who hosted the conference had only 250 members and much less workers, the demanded 60(!!!) ushers from the church!

* they needed ushers who guided them from the conference room into the restaurant (same building). has this to do with intelligence? or only with arrogance? tell me...
* they complained VERY rood about the food that the ladies of the church provided (same wuality as professional catering)...
* at one breakfast at 7.00am they wanted ushers who stood at the entry of the restaurant(!!). they did not greet them. they did not thank them. they did not give them some food. this bunch of totally arrogant people, who call themselve "leaders" did not realize that this men had to work the whole week, and did every ministry VOLUNTERELY and FREE of charge for them! they NEEDED them to stand there at the entry of the restaurant. for what? why? heck - this guys are so weird that its PAINSOME.

- needless to say, that at the "womens pastors meeting" they only welcomed the "sexy girls". by this i mean the wifes of the well known guys in america... our local pastors ladies have been faithfully ignored! (this was already happeing in 1998)

- the youth pastor from america anounced a wonderfull evening experience for aaaall the teenies, and Morris (the pastor of the hosting church) "expected" every parent and teenager at this meeting. people came with their kids, but do you know what happened? NOTHING happened. they had NO service and nothing at all - people had to listen the self-adorance of the american wonderfull super-dooper-ueber-youthpastors (who fell into sin, as we know now) - this was happening twice!

the people here have seen this. they have drawn their conclusions. they dont want this bunch of arrogant, loveless and senseless false teachers, false apostles here in Europe! Thank God!

Well - but still - this show gave a goooood and deeeeep insight into the soul of this ministry.

And thats not the only thing we wittnessed here. Why am i posting this here? because the people outside shall KNOW whats going on! I know some very preachous and wonderfull EN missionaires. I know some honest and brave pastors. but the "big guys"... i dont know. they behave like owner of plantages and not like christian leaders and role-models whom I want to follow!

So Jon, why did you leave EN? You love it so much, please tell me why did you leave?

(Message edited by robert_unknown on October 25, 2006)

(Message edited by robert_unknown on October 25, 2006)

[dust]

Matthew 25 is very clear that the logic of giving to the WRONG PLACE is a SERIOUS SUBJECT. Let's look at what Jesus told us.

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, F141 saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

[robert_unknown]

it is WRONG to serve IDOLS.

EN is an IDOL for many. the leaders have build personality cults around them. based on myths, false promises and a covered past they have deceived HisPeople and other churches into their ministry. They have stolen our identity. They have destroyed the trust of the people into leadership.

They have set a BAD example! SHAME on the people who did this!

We do NOT need this thing here in Europe!

We need deliverance from the evil, not a Christian religion that covers evil.
We need HONESTY and not white washed lies.
We need TRANSPARENCY and no cover ups.
We need MORAL and not charisma.
We need TRUSTWORTHY leaders, no unknown people who demand our obedience only based on their position.
We need submisison under CHRIST and NOT under failable men.
We need THE FATHER and no dictators.
We need JESUS CHRIST and not a man made cult!
We need the HOLY SPIRIT and NO fascistic "spiritiual DNA" and fake anointing!
We need SHEPERDS and no butchers.

And we WILL speak up against unrightessness. Thats the duty of the church! This has always been the duty of the church. Thats prophetic! Thats biblical!

May this voices be heared and may EN TURN AROUND, and leave its evil ways!

[dust]

We need more ROBERTS, who are surely KNOWN to GOD.

[robert_unknown]

if you serve someone else because you think God will give you back you make an IDOL out of the one you server. does God bless this? NO! he hates idolotry!

[jonmoseley]

ROBERT identifies the key issue, but then refuses to address it, as everyone else on this board seems unable to get their head around. I REALLY BELIEVE YOU HAVE ELIMINATED THE IDEA OF AN ACTUAL, LIVING GOD FROM YOUR THINKING. You no longer believe that there really is an actual God involved in your life.

ROBERT_unknown SAID:
No. the question remains, is what I thought I have given to God REALLY a sacrifice for God? Or was I deceived and served MEN instead of God?

MOSELEY: Giving to God is a personal act BETWEEN YOU AND GOD. There are no intermediaries. If you THOUGHT you were giving to God... THEN YOU WERE.

Jesus recieves your gift directly, personally to Him alone REGARDLESS of what is going on around you.

When Jesus was watching the believers (then of the Old Covenant) putting in their offerings, HE WATCHED THE GIVERS.

JESUS DID *NOT* go into the back offices and look at what the Pharisses were doing with the money! (Could He have done so. Of course! But that was less interesting than who was giving.)

Were the Pharisees in the back room mis-using those funds? We can surely infer that they were! Why did Jesus watch the GIVERS and not the SPENDERS?

Jesus often caleld the Pharisees to account. So WHY DID JESUS WATCH THE GIVERS, and not go back and yell at the Pharisees for how they were actually spending the money?

(NOTE: Don't go off on the money-changers. Those were PRIVATE businessmen who were exchanging common currency into the coins accepted for the temple tax, while over-charging at high rates. Those WERE NOT the Pharisees.)


BUT JESUS DID NOT CARE how the money was spent! At least not nearly as much as He cared about the GIVERS.

Jesus watched the widow give the widow's mite and He marvelled. He said that no one had given more than this widow because she gave out of her lack.

HE DID NOT COMPLAIN "Oh, but the money won't be spent right by the Pharisees anyway."

CLEARLY, unmistakably, a gift given unto God is a personal interaction between you and God, regardless of what anyone else is doing.

WOE to you HYPOCRITES!

You spend all this time MOANING about how you should have a DIRECT relationship with God, without intermediaries getting in the way.

BUT THEN YOU DEPEND UPON those very intermediaries to make excuses!

YOU HAD (and hopefully have) a DIRECT, PERSONAL relationship with God.

When you gave of your time, your efforts, your resources, your talents WERE YOU GIVING IT TO MEN... or to God.... IN YOUR HEART?

WHAT WAS YOUR INTENTION?

[jonmoseley]

Robert then goes on to make an irrelevant argument about idols. But let's run with that...

As Robert_unknown implicitly admits, IT DOES NOT MATTER IF PEOPLE ARE GOOD OR BAD, IT IS STILL WRONG, it is STILL IDOLATORY.

You are serving an idol if you are serving the very GREATEST CHristian leader... instead of serving God directly.

If you flew to India to serve Mother Teresa, YOU ARE GUILTY OF IDOLATRY. You are sering a person, not God.


THE CHOICE IS YOURS.....

Do you follow God or do you follow men?

BLAME NO ONE BUT YOURSELVES.

If you follow men, whether Billy Graham or the Pope or Pat Robertson or D. James Kennedy or any other religious figure you to care to name THEN THE FAULT IS YOURS.

I WORSHIPPED GOD in Maranatha, and no one else.

That is why my faith was not shaken.

That is why when someone looked at me funny, I DIDN'T CARE, whereas you shrank in horror and fear that "he doesn't approve of me anymore."

You put all your faith in men, so the slightest hint of disapproval shook you to the core.

Not me.

I COULD NOT CARE LESS whether Bob Weiner or Mark Caulk or anyone else approved of me as long as I knew I was doing the right thing before God. I mean I loved them as brothers, but it wasn't the end of the world for me if they were unhappy with me.

Where did all of you go wrong?

MY FIRST FRIDAY NIGHT AS A CHRISTIAN I spent sitting at a picnic table with Bob Weiner in a public park in Gainesville, Florida, as he explained to me about principalities over cities.

Having just graduated from UF, I was wondering whether or not to move to Washington, D.C., and Bob Weiner was explaining how the spiritual resistance was stronger in Washington, D.C.

Bob Weiner said NO, don't go. Stay here in Gainesville and get more discipleship first.

Lee Grady, who led me to the Lord, and whom I loved and love dearly, said NO, don't go.

GOD SAID YES -- GO!

So I went.

Bob Weiner &amp; Lee Grady thought God was saying no.

I thought God was saying yes, go. So yes, I went.

That was my first Summer as a Christian in Maranatha in 1985. I was only a few weeks old in the Lord. I was surrounded by the leaders from the International Office (IO) every Wednesday night and Sunday.

Bob Weiner baptized me in water and in the Holy Spirit the sunday after that picnic.

Shortly thereafter I was in my first Maranatha satellite prayer session.

Probably none of you were actually IN THE TELEVISION STUDIO at the broadcasting end, where Bob Weiner was preaching firey sermons, and I was with the Praise Band -- LIVE -- and filled with all of this activity as part of the Maranatha prayer satellite network. I was there. And it gave me chills.

A few weeks later I stood with Bob Weiner and others demonstrating in favor of Ronald Reagan's policies in Central America.

HOWEVER.... I still clearly understood that JESUS IS LORD... not Bob Weiner, not Mother Teresa, not Billy Graham, not D. James Kennedy, no one.

How did all of you miss it?

WHOM WERE YOU SERVING?

I was serving God.

You claim that you were not, you were serving people. WHOSE FAULT IS THAT?

[maranatha1984]

Jon
in my Blog I specifically talk about God's work- see my Part Miltie Cracks the Facade where I talk about God being present in MCM...also God worked a real miracle in my life- he sent my Bride a true saint of God and His daughter into my life. BTW I showed her your posts and she burst out laughing...she has not time for such as you...

with regards to Bob preaching sending chills up your spine- join the club...there were people that were convinced Jim Jones was sent from Christ and the Robert Tilton could actually heal them...

Jon thank your for posting your delusional thinking on FACTNET..I do respect you for doing so...Miltie was serving God in MCM- Are you sure you were...did you REALLY KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON IN MCM- Miltie did know- but he stayed because of a ministry God gave him there..

As far as the Reagan Revolution- despite my respect for Reagan I believe that the Christian Right's involvement in politics set the church back (the real one) a 100 years...

[freedom43]

You are completely missing the point. No one is disputing that Jesus looks at the heart and knows whether people gave, sacrificed and served as unto Him during their time in MCM/MSI/EN. That is why I am not bitter. I believe I did all I did unto the Lord -- and I have asked His forgiveness for any abuse I may have perpetuated.

But, that is a completely separate issue from whether MCM/MSI/EN is wrong, misued money, asked for sacrifice for the wrong reasons, appealed to the flesh, etc.

You raised the issue of what the Pharisees did with the money, etc. being beside the point. It's not. It is exactly the point. Jesus still railed on the Pharisees on a regular basis. His criticism of them was relentless. Now, I'm no Jesus, but why do you have such a problem with people here railing on the Pharisees? Or more, specifically, whom we may perceive to be the Pharisees of today? As I said, two separate issues. Why can't we demand accountability for money we gave, time and money we sacrificed, etc?

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Jon,
I read your post # 53.with interest. Did you know these facts about the Central American leader we honored in our MLTS at Dallas, I think were you there? His name is Rios Motte(sp). He was from Guatemala, the BBC reported that recently he was sent to a world court for genocide of Indians in his nation. And the Wall street Journal ran an article exposed our political life. It can be found on Rick Ross site, if you care to look. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.}}

[maranatha1984]

Copper- his death squads executed people.

Jon: I admit I was not serving God- I thought I was but I was not...also The Chrisitan Right and the CHristian Coaltion are/were the worst things to happen to the church in the last 100 years...

[robert_unknown]

Jon,

if the mafia askes you to give them some money, because they want to build Gods kingdom, but then they go out and buy drugs for it, have YOU given the money to God?

I understand your point, but its foolish to think you give to God, only because you want to believe it or only because someone says this.

This thinking however undermines ANY accountabilty and any responsabilty with money. "If YOU have given your money to God, why aere you concerned how we use it?" - i have heared this already before! shame!

however i agree with 2 things:
- if the one who takes the mone, and who has deceived one to give, abuses the money, God surely will judge him about it.
- the deceived person has given because he thought he gives God. God surely loves this. God SEES the heart, and the motivation behind it.

But by NO way, can you always, and in every situatiuons say that you have given to GOD, only because you thought so!

the whole thinkng about "giving to God" has been abused. How can one give to God? all BELONGS to God already! he does not need anything!

If you give to be blesse, your heart is WRONG. you give because you want to get something back. you want to make a busioness with God!

everything wihtout LOVE is without VALUE! if you dont server mother theresa because you LOVE the people she serves and because you love her, ITS NOT WORTH ANYTHING at all!

Go, Jon Mosely , and read what the bible says about LOVE.

[robert_unknown]

"You claim that you were not, you were serving people. WHOSE FAULT IS THAT?"

you obviously are a GOOD disciple of the Weiners. Blaming the victims of abuse is something you should not be proud of

I understand what you mean with "serving God". and partially i agree. however this does NOT change the fact. that the Weiners and their long-year disciples and leaders ABUSE this pure motivation of young people to build THEIR own kingdom!

does God need the Weiners? Does he need EN? Does he need TV stations? does he need rallys for the Reagans? Does he need millions of dollars to spread the gospel?

heck - where does THIS ideay come from?

Christianity did not need all of this crap during the last 2000 years!

but it seems that christianity in some parts of the world is confusing CHURCH with BUSINESS.

its the Weiners who needed it for their ego to be on TV, to ralley for the Reagans!

ever heared that Gods kingdom is not of this world, Jon? it might not impress you. it was "only" Jesus Christ who said this, and not Bob Weiner. But JESUS died on that cross for me, while Weiner and his friends would not move ONE leg for me . and JESUS has set a pattern for ministry. for love. for compassion. he did not ralley for herodes. he did not speak on TV. but he moved humanity during the last 200 years!

shame on the people who abuse pure believers like you and others for their ego-trip! shame on them!

(Message edited by robert_unknown on October 26, 2006)

[robert_unknown]

"1) God is looking at the young believer who has chosen (going to Tik's narrative) give up a relationship with a woman he cares about, give up activities he preferred, give up aspects of his education and his career (maybe not smart, for me or you, but there it is), etc., etc.

WHAT IS GOD's VIEW? Have you even CONSIDERED God in all of this? "

----


why do you believe that God has a problem with a relationship, with prefered activites, with education and career?
why do you believe Tik could not serve God in all of this the same as he did in MCM?
Why do you think one must be engaged 6 days a week in church activity to please God?
why do you think God wants us to serve people like the Weiners?

Where did you get this from, Jon? I know MCM preasured much on these things and worked with shame, fear, intimidation and a false idea about "holiness" and so on... therefore they have been seen as a cult later.

But now - nearly 20 years after all of this - you still are on the same track. you come here to people who suffered and lost much by this bunch of totally reckless people, and you come here and try the same game with us?

it does not work on us. we apprechiate you, that you come here and discuss things. and that you share your point of view.

but PLEASE understand - you cannot convince us, that MCM or EN is not "that bad" but we are the "bad guys".

we know what we went through. we know what we did to others. it had nothing to do with Jesus Christ and the gospel! JESUS had NOTHING to do with the abuse that happened in MCM/MSI/EN...

[robert_unknown]

"When Jesus was watching the believers (then of the Old Covenant) putting in their offerings, HE WATCHED THE GIVERS.
JESUS DID *NOT* go into the back offices and look at what the Pharisses were doing with the money! (Could He have done so. Of course! But that was less interesting than who was giving.)
Were the Pharisees in the back room mis-using those funds? We can surely infer that they were! Why did Jesus watch the GIVERS and not the SPENDERS?
Jesus often caleld the Pharisees to account. So WHY DID JESUS WATCH THE GIVERS, and not go back and yell at the Pharisees for how they were actually spending the money?
(NOTE: Don't go off on the money-changers. Those were PRIVATE businessmen who were exchanging common currency into the coins accepted for the temple tax, while over-charging at high rates. Those WERE NOT the Pharisees.)
BUT JESUS DID NOT CARE how the money was spent! At least not nearly as much as He cared about the GIVERS.
Jesus watched the widow give the widow's mite and He marvelled. He said that no one had given more than this widow because she gave out of her lack.
HE DID NOT COMPLAIN "Oh, but the money won't be spent right by the Pharisees anyway." "

---------------------------------

i have to comment this one:

i agree with you, that jesus sees the HEART of the person in what we are doing. he jugdes not only our deeds, but also our motivations behind it. In this respect, he suerely loves the giver, who gives, out of LOVE to God.

But on the other side, Jesus NEVER was quite about the sins and hypocracy of the Pharisees. Yes - he did NOT go to the backroom and critizizse the pharisees in this situation. but he made it very clear, that the house of God is NO warehouse. He made it also very clear, that you cannot do business with God. You say we cannot come with the moneymakers. stop! the moneymakers could NOT be in the temple and make their business WITHOUT the priests aporoval! the priests, the pharisees have made <a business out of religion and Jesus HATED it, like he hates it today.

you are true when you talk about motivations.

however we all know where we have been wrong.

i admit i have been wrong by believing all the crap about the "coming revival" and about "fulltime ministry when you submit and serve enough" and about "serving God by serving his leaders".

i am also confesing here and publicly, that I have preasurized people to tithe and to sacrifize. I am confessing that I have preached false things (like the ones mentioned), and that I have been part of a slavish system that brings people into dependancy and under unhealthy leadership. i have no problem confessing this, Jon. because I understand WHO God is, even despite your false acusations. I have no problem to apologize and confess my sins. I am NOT covering up my sins...

you blame people to act and serve out of false motives. but its the leaders who have THAUGHT this, who have DEMANDED this, who build a society based on this ideas. its the leaders who LET THEMSELVES serve "unto God", its them who preach this and who teach this.

they have build a structure of deceit based one FALSE and unbiblical ideas about servanthood, submission and authority. And in this respect they will have to stand before God one day and justify themselves.

What we are doing here is EXPOSING this structures of delusion/ deceit, so that EVERYONE can see whats going on.

NO MAN/WOMAN has the right to abuse others. To abuse others for ones one benefit based on religous ideas is the WORST thing on earth.

so please think about this!

or are you one of the guys who also blames a victim for beeing raped?