Q Should a Church TALK ABOUT your LEAVING

[jonmoseley]

This is very interesting because this Board consists largely of former members gossiping about other Christians and Christian leaders not only behind their back but also anonymously.

Yet a major theme on this Board is the allegation that Maranatha Church "talked trash" about members who left. I have disputed this as I never saw (heard) that happen. But let's ask some questions first:

1) Why is it okay for you to "trash" Christians adn Christian leaders but not okay for them to do it?

2) If you leave a church unhappy with that church, WHY is it wrong for those people to feel rejected by you? Is it not natural that THEY are going to feel that YOU rejected THEM?

3) If you choose to leave a church and no longer go there, what do you care what they say about you after you've left?

4) Freedom43 complains that (a) Maranatha Church on Capitol Hill in D.C. (by then probably renamed Grace Covenant Church) DID NOT talk about a departing elder/home church leader, yet (b) MCCH DID talk about people leaving.

Freedom43 complains that MCCH was wrong to FAIL to talk about a departing home church leader, yet also complains that MCCH DID talk about departing members.

So, Maranatha is accused of simultaneously NOT talking about AND IN FACT talking about departing leaders. Which are you commplaining abotu?

Could it be that Freedom43 simply wants to complain about Maranatha no matter what, and is looking for any excuse to do so?

I recall that Maranatha in D.C. (MCCH) SIMPLY NEVER TALKED ABOUT DEPARTING MEMBERS OR LEADERS AT ALL... unless they were being moved to another position in Maranatha in another city and we were praying for them to go to their new location.

In keeping with that policy of simply NEVER talking about people leaving, I can understand why that was done with a departing home church leader.

[mcmstaff78]

Jon, Jon, Jon. Is this really the level of moral maturity and understanding that you've risen to? I mean, if you graduate UF in 1985, that would make you somewhere around 42 or 43 years old (young, granted, but not so young). Of course, having spent the time since in the morally stunted world of Washington, D.C., well...

Seriously, this would be like saying "if it's alright for a rape victim to talk about how she was raped, why isn't it alright for the rapist to talk about how she was just a piece of meat, asking for it, etc." There is such a thing as speaking the truth, Jon, and telling lies.

Again, simply because (you say) you didn't experience it (or weren't paying attention) doesn't mean it didn't happen. Jon, your putting yourself up as the absolute arbiter of other people's experience. Sorry, my boy, but the weight of evidence here is far against you.

The old chestnut from Shakespeare, [he] doth protest too much, methinks certainly seems most apropos to your posters. Who are you trying to convince? those of us who experienced it first hand and know the truth, or yourself who seem to be furiously trying to deny the truth?

<font color="ff0000">And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.</font>

[jonmoseley]

The truth in the quote you say is about Jesus Christ and His salvation. It is clear from elsehwere in the Bible that this DOES NOT MEAN everything under the sun.

Your comment is simply sophistry and distraction. I think we have struck a nerve of your hypocrisy.

First, of course you resort to an inflammatory example which HIDES the issues by distracting from the question, rather than illustrating the issues.

Second, OUR GUIDE IS THE BIBLE NOT THE WORLD.

Place your comments in terms of the Bible.

The Bible tells us that if someone sins against them you follow Matthew 18:15-17.

THESE PEOPLE HAVE APOLOGIZED for any wrong, so you are FORBIDDEN from talking about their sins any further.

The Bible repeatedly warns YOU against gossiping, including the New Testament, including Paul.

So you are violating the commands of the Bible yourself, yet you wish to accuse others of being unbiblical.

Jesus also said to take the plank out of your own eye first, so that you can see more clearly to take the speck of sawdust out of your brother's eye.

So you rampantly, eagerly, enthusiasitcally violate the Bible's commands.... and then accuse others of being unbiblical.

In your example.... Could it be that YOU are the rapist?

[upcase20]

In Defense of Freedom43:
1)Your use of the word "trash" is degrading
2)When I left I did not reject it's people I
was rejecting their liturgy.
3)?What? Maybe because I wanted to see it become
a better place? Maybe I might want to go back
after it did.
4)Maranatha Church on Capitol Hill had moved to
Virginia by the time they were operating under
the name Grace Covenant Church.
Additionally, leaders were given much more respect than average members so you cannot logically equate the two. To imply that Freedom43
"wants to complain no matter what" is a blanket statement that is ridiculous. Might I suggest you look at some of her previous entries. And lastly I was one member who was talked about, at least in my circle of friends, who screwed up my reputation so much, that I wouldn't have been the same person if I had returned.

[mcmstaff78]

Please show me where they have apologized? No one ever apologized to me. Perhaps my example is extreme, but not overly so. You seem to miss more subtle moral distinctions, so I thought maybe something that was more in your face would make a point. I could have given an example regarding sexual abuse in the workplace, but that might not have gotten through.

Jesus told us to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves (not vice versa). The Bible is propositional truth, Jon, you won't find something to cover everything in it. But I don't abuse, I left that behind when I left MCM and WoF church I was involved in, so I took that "plank" out of my eye and can see quite clearly where spiritual abuse is. Jon, you're doing just what you're accusing us of doing. You're judging me, you're saying I've got a "plank" in my eye, etc. Don't you see, your application of this scripture results in an endless spiral of charge/counter-charge. I've repented, and continue to repent, of the things I did. I left the abusive system behind. But you, and the leaders you seem to admire so much and defend so vehemently, have not. You love that system and seek to justify it.

And, with all that, you didn't really deal with anything I wrote. God bless you, Jon, may He open your eyes and illumine you with the light of His truth.

[sameo]

JMoseley quoted:"The Bible repeatedly warns YOU against gossiping, including the New Testament, including Paul."

JMos: I hate to burst your bubble, however, in every staff meeting with Bob W and Joe S, and all the elders, there was PLENTY of gossiping going on about it's campus members...and perhaps about you. And if ANYONE left MCM--they were definitely gossiped about, slandered, shredded,chewed up and spit out. In fact, ANYone who left MCM was said to have been "in rebellion to God, which is as the sin of witchcraft." An example, (to be specific) One couple, when telling Bob W they felt led by God to leave, were told(falsely prophesied over by Joe S) that IF they left MCM God would bring death and destruction to them. This not only is CONTROL in it's worst form, mental cruelty....BUT absolute verbal ABUSE!! how horrendous to threaten a young impressionable couple that IF they leave they will DIE. If this was the ONLY wrong thing that ever happened in MCM IT would be PLENTY enough to flee. But sadly, this is only one of the many, many, many examples. (btw-I know of many who after leaving experienced absolute FEAR that God would punish them) God doesn't instill fear in His children. Fear isn't of God, and yet, these so called leaders of God used fear to control and manipulate it's young members.

OH, you wonder how I know what went on in staff meetings? I was there.

[sameo]

oh, btw-the last I heard this couple never received an apology from Bob or Joe. They deserved one. Also, this couple after 20 some odd years later....are still very much ALIVE!!!

I'm so glad they had the courage to leave.

[jonmoseley]

GUYS: PAUL WAS TALKING ABOUT YOU!

Paul warned about those with an "unhealthy interest in controversies" with "EVIL SUSPICIONS" constantly creating strife.

THE TEACHER OF FALSE DOCTRINES HAS AN UNHEALTY INTEREST IN CONTROVERSIES AND QUARRELS ABOUT WORDS THAT RESULT IN ENVY, STRIFE, MALICIOUS TALK, EVIL SUSPICIONS, AND CONSTANT FRICTION AMONG MEN.

1 Timothy 6:3-5

3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.


2 Corinthians 12:20
I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.


Proverbs 16:28
A perverse man stirs up dissension, and a gossip separates close friends.

Proverbs 29:22
An angry man stirs up dissension, and a hot-tempered one commits many sins.


Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs.

Proverbs 20:3
It is to a man's honor to avoid strife, but every fool is quick to quarrel

James 1:26
If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.


According to Paul, THOSE WHO GOSSIP DESERVE DEATH

Romans 1:28 - 32
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


1 Peter 3:10
For, "Whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech.

Proverbs 26:20
Without wood a fire goes out; without gossip a quarrel dies down.



Jeremiah 9:8
Their tongue is a deadly arrow; it speaks with deceit. With his mouth each speaks cordially to his neighbor, but in his heart he sets a trap for him.

Jeremiah 9:3
"They make ready their tongue like a bow, to shoot lies; it is not by truth that they triumph in the land. They go from one sin to another; they do not acknowledge me," declares the LORD.

Isaiah 59:3
For your hands are stained with blood, your fingers with guilt. Your lips have spoken lies, and your tongue mutters wicked things.

Proverbs 18:21
The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit.

Proverbs 11:13
A gossip betrays a confidence, but a trustworthy man keeps a secret.

Proverbs 15:4
The tongue that brings healing is a tree of life, but a deceitful tongue crushes the spirit.

Galatians 5:19-21

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[miltietoast]

you know sameo, when you see the same thing happen over and over again you realize you don't need any new info on these wolves.You can "prophesy" their next move. We could start a prophetic ministry.

[miltietoast]

you know sameo, when you see the same thing happen over and over again you realize you don't need any new info on these wolves.You can "prophesy" their next move. We could start a prophetic ministry.

[mcmstaff78]

Hmmm, that one from Galatians 5 sounds just like, well, like some of the stuff people say was going on with some EN pastors. In fact, now that you mention it, everyone of those scriptures seems to apply to a certain poster who cropped up here recently with a connection to EN.

[jonmoseley]

TO UPCASE20: In my question "trash" is a verb, not a noun, as in "talking trash." It does not portray a person, but the words spoken about that person (wrongly so).

Also, Freedom43 repeatedly talks about an elder / home church leader being removed without Maranatha/DC's church PUBLICLY TALKING ABOUT it. (She?) complains that this is wrong that MCCH's DID NOT talk about or acknowledge the departure of this home church leader.

Then Freedom43 alleges that the leadership of Maranatha Church on Capitol Hill DID talk about people when they left (which I know I never heard).

So is it right to simultaneously complain that MCCH both DID and DID NOT talk about departing members?


TO SAMEO: The question is if it was wrong for MCM leaders to talk like that in gossip DO YOU DO THE SAME THING YOU CONDEMN?

You allege that Maranatha leaders talked bad about departing members. Why is that wrong, seeing that YOU DO THE SAME THING?

Romans 2
1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

[mcmstaff78]

Okay, one more time Jonathon, there is a distinction between reporting a crime and bragging about one.

Yep, big, extreme analogy. But you don't seem to understand the difference between "leaders" gossiping about people they've hurt, whether in meetings or from the pulpit, and the victim warning others. See, this is like those sexual predator lists. I guess you think those are "gossipping" or morally equivalent to, let's see, the predators bragging to one another of their predations?

Seriously, you seem to have a real problem distinguishing between good acts and bad acts, between the victim and the victimizer. Again, this is classic pathology of someone abused who identifies with his abuser. There is help for this type of psychological disorder, but you have to want help. Jonathon, the first step is to admit you have a problem.

(Message edited by MCMStaff78 on October 26, 2006)

[jonmoseley]

MCMstaff78 WROTE:
Hmmm, that one from Galatians 5 sounds just like, well, like some of the stuff people say was going on with some EN pastors. UNQUOTE

But it is YOU (Y'ALL collectively) who raise as your accusation that MCM leaders DISPARAGED YOU and others when you / they left.

AND YET YOU DO THE SAME THING that you complain about.

It was unfairly said above that you should be free to to critique MCM and EN, etc.

But *I* am not the one complaining about people saying disparaging things YOU ARE -- even while you do the very thing you condemn.

YOU (collectively) keep making this complaint (factually inaccurate in my experience) that people who left were disparaged after they left.

SO IT IS YOU who raise as your standard of proper behavior that nobody should disparage former members AND YET YOU DO THE VERY THING YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT.

Should you be able to discuss problems about MCM and your conspiracy theories trying to link MCM to EN?

NOT if one of your complaints is people talking bad about other people !!!!

That one, at least, should be taken off the table as rank hypocrisy.

What you are doing is akin to this: You beckon a brother or sister over and say "GUESS WHAT? I HEARD SISTER SUE GOSSIPING! CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT? Let me tell you all about it!"

If you want to criticize, it's a free country. But don't criticize others because they -- horrors -- criticized like you do.

[mcmstaff78]

See my post above this latest missive of yours, me boyo. It is appropriate. You pathology has become too evident. You identify with the abuser. Get some help.

[jonmoseley]

The only side we should identify with is the truth. And that is your problem. You think that truth is relative.

FIRST you decide whose ox you want to gore, THEN you twist the truth to achieve that dishonest objective.

I come at it from the other direction. I ask what is the truth, not what do I want the truth to be.

[jonmoseley]

MCMSTAFF78 writes above: But you don't seem to understand the difference between "leaders" gossiping about people they've hurt.... [ETC, you can read it above]

MOSELEY: WHERE does the Bible make this distinction? REMEMBER it is YOU who are raising this objection that "people talked about me!" as YOUR accuasation against others. No one but y'all is raising this as a problem.

[mcmstaff78]

Jon, when *my* ox has been gored, it is appropriate a) to want restitution and b) to warn others that someone owns an ox that is goring other oxes.

Again, these are moral distinctions that you cannot seem to be able to make. What Law school did you attend?

BTW, where did I write "truth is relative"?

[freedom43]

Stop putting words in my mouth, Jon, and falsely accusing me. You sound just like the Maranatha/Grace Covenant I left 15 years ago. Anyone who would leave or question the church was painted as messed up/in sin. I can’t tell you how many times – especially near the end (1991 for me) – that I heard sermons about people with “roots of bitterness,” the importance of spiritual authority (i.e. don’t question the leadership) etc. Perhaps you were and are too blind to recognize this as the manipulation and control that it is/was – that they were talking about people who had left and were doing spin control.

I never trash talked anyone. I left and didn’t look back, and really hadn’t talked about it in close to 15 years – until I found this website. My phone number hasn’t changed since then. Any member of that church who wanted to talk to me after I left could have called and still can. But, they haven’t. I have, however, reconnected with some old friends/former members here. Anyway, people were programmed not to ask questions or talk to those people with “roots of bitterness” who had left. After a while that got really old, so I started asking questions when I saw people being abused while the church stood by and watched.

So, I will explain it one more time……first, Mark,/Brett had made an effort at reform, I think, and allowed the church to select elders itself for the first time. One elder was essentially dismissed by Mark privately and the church was never told. That was wrong. The church elected the elder – and Mark summarily dismissed him. It should have been explained to the church instead of ignored and covered up. Mark waited until someone asked about this guy from the pulpit and basically said “Oh yeah, he decided to step down.” That was not true. Once again, a person in leadership who disagreed with Mark was dismissed and then we heard sermons about roots of bitterness and gossip etc. to keep people quiet. I like to call it “the conspiracy of silence.” continued

[freedom43]

Secondly, it was Scriptural for people fired and evicted – something that could end up in a secular court -- by another church member to go to Brett/the church leaders for resolution/arbitration. That is basic New Testament. Paul was clear on that. Brett refused to listen to those who were victimized by Simon and his wife. He basically said “Why should I believe your side of the story over theirs?” This was a repeated pattern of abuse – and Brett turned his head the other way and refused to deal with it. Thing is, these people whose side of the story he wouldn’t listen to had been running the children’s ministry for years. So, let’s get this straight, he could trust them to take care of his and every other kid in the church for years, but he couldn’t trust that they were telling the truth about being evicted or verbal abuse. Come on!! He didn’t want to cross Simon because Simon was a cash cow (among other things, Brett was living in his house -- paying rent, who knows!??– and because Simon was dealing out retribution against people (perhaps at Brett’s urging for all I know) who wanted to visit other churches. That is wrong. Wake up, Jon. This stuff happened and was abusive. It is not the imaginings of one bitter and twisted individual or even two or three. It’s really not anyone’s fault that you slept through all this or were blind or too deceived to ask a question or two about that “mass exodus” you’ve described. There were legitimate reasons people left, Jon. Reasons that you may likely never acknowledge. I really pity you and pray that your eyes will be opened.

Oh – and frankly, the only reason I continue raising this stuff is because you come here and dare point fingers and accuse people of being hypocrites, etc. and others need to know that there were – and likely still are – some serious problems in Mr. Fuller’s church. Problems that you were ignorant of or choose to try to justify/excuse. And, finally, if I learned today that Brett had apologized/repented to those families, was not continuing to abuse others – and could confirm that he opened his books – I would never say another word about any of this. Ever.

[freedom43]

P.S. Your tirades are evidence/a symptom to me that you have been in an abusive and controlling situation/church (or are mentally ill -- or both). Since you have been in Brett's church, I will assume it is still abusive. Because, dude, you are not right/healthy. And, I really hate to say that and do not say that lightly. Get some help. I can recommend a good psychiatrist in this area who helped me recover after 12 years in Maranatha/Grace Covenant. But, FactNet is likely cheaper -- if you will open your eyes, ears and heart.