Q Is Jesus Christ LORD Or do you Reject HIs Lordship

[jonmoseley]

Trying to bring the conversation to specific issues, rather than vague complaints, I asked whether your sacrifices in MCM or EN were truly "lost" and whether you now think it WRONG to have given up any material pleasure or material benefit in this life in the name of Jesus Christ.

Did you truly "LOSE" that part of your life, or will God STILL reward you for your efforts, even if OTHER PEOPLE WERE WRONG?

Do the wrongs of other people take away from God' pleasure in YOUR desire to please Him and serve Him?

CAN OTHER PEOPLE's wrongs prevent God from rewarding you?

CAN OTHER PEOPLE's wrongs prevent God from seeing your heart in wanting to serve Him and please Him, even while you are in a "bad" church (as you see it)?

I expected quick agreement that REGARDLESS of your hurts and wounds and disappointments and need for healing it is STILL right to serve God -- THOUGH IN SOME OTHER CHURCH, NATURALLY -- and to put Jesus ahead of your own personal agenda and preferences.

I was surprised that there is so strong and immediate a reaction hostile to the idea that any sacrifice FOR GOD made while in Maranatha or Every Nation could be right.

And we don't know (and I don't pry) what you are doing now.

So, the question is: Do you no longer believe that Jesus Christ is LORD over your life, even in practical terms?

OH, SURE, there are a host of problems in trying to discern God's will in specific situations. That will ALWAYS be a hornet's nest of problems.

But do you reject the concept that what Jesus wants is more important than what each of us wants? (Don't get me wrong... Frequently God leads me in directions I don't want to go. And I hate it. ANd I struggle. And I often fail to respond appropriately. But at least on principle I accept that He is God and I am not. Even if my track record may be terrible, at least I do not abandon the attempt to put God first.)

And... CAN YOU ONLY SERVE GOD after you find PERFECT Christians to fellowship with?

Do other people's imperfections prevent / excuse you from serving God?

[maranatha1984]

First MCM was not about God. Not at its core. You should know that you have at least 10 former pastors, two board members and one well, uh relation to a board member here.

Uh all those who served full time or were on the board: was MCM about serving God or serving the leadership and our non God centered agenda?

Second:will God STILL reward you for your efforts

If God were to reward us for our effots He would blast us to Kingdom Come. You equate serving God with a reward...is that why you serve Him.

Jon- I have a thread just for you on EN Blog entitled "Jon Mosely where are You???"

So in unison and one more time:

God was not the author of MCM. MCM was NOT about God.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Jon
Sorry from your post # 44 That we did not hop to as you say,you had expected, it is hard to herd us. Been there done that. Can you see? We love Him and serve Him. Why is that hard for you to see?
}

[maranatha1984]

LOL Copper- right on...been pushed to pushed hard>>> you must do this or that.

Yes beautifully said..."Jesus love me this I know for the Bible tells me so"

You know Copper when we serve Him it is easy isn't...His burden is light...

Jon and his ilk want to load us up with stones and weights...

[wildwood_]

So, who knew I'd get to sing in a choir??? Finally....God bless old Mr Wilbur &amp; my a cappella off-key youth... "Little ones to Him belong, they are weak but He is strong. Yes, Jesus Loves Me. Yes, Jesus Loves Me. Yes, Jesus Loves Me...the Bible told me so."

...jonwhoeveryouare...Jesus loves you, too. And His Joy has remained and endured and stayed TRUE. He doesn't change. His Love remains eternal and by His Light, we no longer live in darkness.... Carry the stones if you wish, Jesus didn't throw them... and He'd rather you put them down, too. And take a good look around and open your eyes to where people stand today in Him. Go back and read Tikie's Blog again...I think perhaps you missed something important that was written on every page... The Love of God through Christ Jesus Our Lord...and His Amazing Grace.

[maranatha1984]

Man o man Wild. Pretty...

Hey, there is a silver lining- my e-mail only had one message from Jon and it was only a paragraph long...lol...blessings

Tikie

[maranatha1984]

Man o man Wild. Pretty...

Hey, there is a silver lining- my e-mail only had one message from Jon and it was only a paragraph long...lol...blessings

Tikie

[miltietoast]

jon ,I would rephrase your question on this thread. "Are there wolves in sheeps clothing that have learned to manipulate trusting sheep to be their slaves and providers?"

The trap is that while trying to please God many(including me) fell into the sin of menpleasing or selfpleasing. The wolves play you like a stradivarius violin for their personal gain. When the world abuses you, it is expected and not surprising. When you are abused within the fold the consequences can be devasting

[miltietoast]

sheep get convicted when the emulate the wolves.maybe because they hear a voice that disciplines them like a father. The wolves do not hear that voice or hardened their hearts and become bastardized children

[jonmoseley]

MARANATHA1984 wrote: First MCM was not about God. UNQUOTE


MOSELEY: That's not the question. Off topic. I know it is herding cats but I am trying to focus on one idea at a time, separately.

The issue is WHAT DO YOU NOW BELIEVE?

DO you believe NOW in whatever church you find yourself in, THAT JESUS COMES FIRST IN YOUR LIFE?

Is your obsession with trashing EN because you want to bury the concept of actually putting Jesus first?

Do you NOW believe that you might choose a lesser job in order to advance Jesus' Kingdom, give up a relationship, donate your time and money, volunteer, by placing JESUS and His Kingdom as being more important than your own material life? I don't care what church you do it in.

I contend that you are REJECTING the idea of doing anything for Jesus, you want to justify kicking back and taking it easy, doing nothing, and just being a couch potato for Jesus. The reason you are so passionate about discrediting MCM and EN is because you want to convince yourselves that it is wrong to put Jesus first in your lives, and you want to have an EXCUSE for pursuing your own materialistic agenda.

BUT I AM ASKING YOU THE QUESTION... not coming to conclusions.


miltietoast asks about wolves in sheep's clothing. AGAIN that has nothing to do with the question. Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater and reject all service to God because there are some bad people in the world?

WHEN will there not be bad people?

WHEN will it be safe for you to come out and serve God?

WHEN will you find a perfect church, so that you can now begin to put Jesus first in your life?


And finally to Maranatha1984 JESUS EXPLICITLY SAID WE WOULD NOT LOSE OUR REWARD, quite apart from salvation.

So are you rejecting the words of Jesus Christ on this subject? I am asking. It is a question.

[jonmoseley]

Jesus loves us (me, you) BUT DO YOU LOVE JESUS? Or is Jesus just out of luck, left out in the cold on the back porch?

In terms of losing your reward, I remind you that I was responding to the pain and soul-searching and heartache expressed on this Board that you "LOST" x amount of time in your life.

In reply to that, I argue you have NOT lost if you gave to GOD, rather than MCM or EN.

If in your heart, you KNEW that you were serving men, then you have gotten your reward in full.

If, in your heart, your INTENTION was to serve and please God, IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU FAILED.

JESUS SAID SO EXPLICITLY. He said if you give for the praises of men, you have gotten your reward in full and will get nothing further from God.

If you gave because you wanted to please God, then God knows your heart and you will not fail to receive your reward from God.

Would it be better if it actuallyworked. Well, obviously, yes! But your primary reward is in heaven.

[annelewis]

All of us made sacrifices of time, energy and money that we will never get back. Will God reward it? Probably - but scripture seems to indicate that our reward will be based on those works that we did to the least. But I'm not God so at the end of the day, who knows what the eternal result will be of a young man turning over his entire paycheck to a fund earmarked to buy a building that was never purchased.

I think the more relevant question is did those sacrifices achieve the results that we were told they would?

Not even close. Not monetarily, not physically, and certainly not spiritually.

Is this a cause to be bitter? Not at all. But I think those who are part of a system where there is a repeated and sustained track record of promises not kept need to move towards the serpent end of the wisdom spectrum.

(Message edited by annelewis on October 26, 2006)

[miltietoast]

jon said-- I asked whether your sacrifices in MCM or EN were truly "lost" and whether you now think it WRONG to have given up any material pleasure or material benefit in this life in the name of Jesus Christ

jon can you name one material pleasure or material benefit the EN MCM have given up in this life?
Follow your wizardly ilogic they would have zero rewards.
At my stage in life I do not give a flip about rewards.

[matt_hatter]

Ann, you should consider writing a devotional blog or something. There is something very rich in your words....seriously.

Miltie, the whole idea of rewards do not interest me in the least either. As no human ever born can report what heaven is actually like (from experience), I have a tendency then to just leave that up to our God.

I do find rewards in this life in things that have nothing to do with trinkets, and I think you are the recepient of those blessings on a daily basis too.

[annelewis]

Thanks, Matt. I'm a mull-er. It's easy to sound rich and profound if I have several days to think about something.

However, I suck at off the cuff.

[dust]

Come on you guys, How much more of this can you stand.
It's the weekend....We are going to go to a FAll Festival and maybe dress our dogs up...anything to get away from the Moses Invasion.


<font color="ff0000">Go do something very silly</font>

<font color="119911">I'm bunnytrailing a serious thread!</font>

[matt_hatter]

I'm bunnytrailing a serious thread!

Yea, I am am giving orders to Moses about procedure. Looks like all is well in factnet-dom. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

Ann, several days is....several days. So it takes you a while. Would love to hear your thoughts on a blog or something. There have been several instances where your words have gently sliced layers of religiosity off of folks' skin, including mine. Just thinkin'...

[jonmoseley]

AnneLewis wrote: I think the more relevant question is did those sacrifices achieve the results that we were told they would? Not even close. UNQUOTE

MOSELEY: Yes, but is that the measure? Centuries ago some missioniaries sold themselves into slavery in order to preach the gospel to the prisoners and slaves on a prison island. I should remember their nationality but I don't. Hopefully you remember.

What if they had done that, given the supreme sacrifice of their entire lives to preach the gospel to those who could not be reached any other way, AND THEN UTTERLY FAILED TO WIN A SINGLE CONVERT? Would they have lost everything?

Those missioniaries on the prison island were "serving" on a daily basis an evil regime that ran the prison. They were not serving under perfect saints, but under brutal and loveless prison guards. WHAT IF THEY HAD NOT WON A SINGLE PERSON TO CHRIST? Would they have failed?

And when they embarked on this journey, did they know in advance what the outcome would be?

Would their sacrifice be judged by God according to what they tried to do, or by their success or failure?

Remember that in the parable of the talents the one man was criticized NOT for losing money with the talents entrusted to him BUT FOR NOT EVEN TRYING. It was because he buried the one talent KEEPING IT SAFE that he was punished. Amazingly, the man with 1 talent DID NOT LOSE ANY of the master's money!!! And yet he was punished for not even trying.

Miltietoast; I didn't catch your question. I think you are asking if the LEADERS ever sacrificed? Fair question. I know that at least Mark Caulk certainly did when he laid down his entire life, salary, career, reputation, position, pulpit, etc., so that MCM members might find peace and move on. None of you have responded by forgiving.

I know that most of the MCM leaders lived off of peanut butter and popcorn just like Tik describes in his narrative blog.

Brett Fuller gave up a prosperous future as a dentist in order to live on no money at all and eat peanut butter, and live the basement of the church office.

I dare say that every one of the MCM leaders lived in poverty and hardship until much later in their careers. Doesn't quite fit your theory, does it?

[miltietoast]

moses-- mark caulk was my pastor in cookeville and he officiated at our wedding---I personally have no problems with Mark. Maybe he saw the wolves and escaped. My question is directed at the mercenary wolves not the Caulks,mcm'dilly's. Guys who had shepherds hearts and tried to feed the sheep and protect them and got butchered by your clan of wolves. I see you conveniently omitting the culprits. Phil Bonasso uses everyone around him including his wife. I knew him when he only dreamed of ruling and reigning. I would not entrust him to run the midnight shift of a conveience store. Phil's biggest sacrifice in Auburn was to let someone finish his pacman game while he ordered a sandwich. Karen worked full nursing shifts while pregnant(puking with morning sickness) but you always find nasso at the pacman game or golfcourse spending karens quarters. Maybe I will tell you about Bob Rice Nick Greg in my spare time menwho are worthy of the world

[mdillon]

miltie to jon moseley:

<blockquote>checkmate</blockquote>

[matt_hatter]

I'm pretty close to part of the Caulk clan. Mark is doing well and I am happy for him, there is nothing to forgive, we were all bozos on the same bus. It is the wolves that remain that we speak of.

You haven't a clue to what you speak about regarding the lifestyles of the rich and famous. I was with Miltie, and his assessment is correct. Phil was a master manipulator and it sounds like he has only gotten better at it.

Again, my theory is that your anger springs from the fact that you too were duped by this whole system, and you won't admit it, but would rather call us vipers, etc. No big deal, we all smile and know your type. True believer...and dangerous.

[miltietoast]

A wise businessman once told me, "If a man will cheat you when he has no money,look out if he ever gets any. He will become seven times worse"
I did not buy that at first but have found that worthy to placed in the businessman's bible.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

miltie: A wise businessman once told me, "If a man will cheat you when he has no money,look out if he ever gets any. He will become seven times worse"<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Hmmmm, sounds familiar. How about <font color="ff0000">"He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much."</font>(Luk 16:10)

[miltietoast]

dang, mcm you say it so much better than me

[miltietoast]

dang, mcm you say it so much better than me

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Jon M,
Thank you, Matt for the reference to the true believer. Jon M,, perhaps you should take a look at Eric Hoffer, book "True Believers". It might be of some help to you.

[annelewis]

Well, if we were not to expect any benefit from our giving, why wasn't this explained up front? I wouldn't have quibbled with that.

"Give to our building fund campaign, but we might not actually buy a building! God will still bless you."

"Spend time and money that you don't really have to attend MLTS and alienate your family by not spending Christmas break with them at the same time! This causes you to get that much more vested in the ministry AND we won't be left holding the bag on conference costs. God will still bless you."

"Cut church costs by opting out of paying in to Social Security. But don't expect us to actually provide retirement for you or even a liveable wage. God will still bless you."

"Spend every waking and sleeping moment working for the benefit of the church. This shows you are 100% committed to God by being 100% committed to the church - specifically this church and this ministry. After all, God and this church are practically the same thing. God will bless you."

Once upon a time I would have taken great umbrage at this particular rendering of life within MCM, insisting that there was an eternal/spiritual perspective that was being
ignored.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm just saying that people were exploiting the concept of sacrificial service and eternal reward for their personal gain.

If you are ok with that, then there is nothing that I can say to change your mind.

I'm just saying that if you are not ok with that, then it's not wrong or bad or even necessarily a sign of bitterness or rebellion to question it and leave that situation.

(Message edited by annelewis on October 28, 2006)

[annelewis]

I forgot to mention, the group that sold themselves into slavery were the Moravians. According to those on this board who have researched this group, they are theologically suspect falling into the Latter Rain camp.

[freedom43]

Also, on Jon's premise that if they saved no souls, would God reward them anyway for such a sacrifice....wouldn't we know them by their fruit? No fruit and perhaps it was not God asking them to sacrifice?

In the case of MCM/EN, the question is how we define fruit. Anne has eloquently explained what some of that "fruit" looked like. Jon himself has said that the church is not helping him mature as a Christian at this point in his walk.

[ulyankee]

annelewis, the Moravian LEADERS were. The rank and file, the people who traveled the world, sold themselves into slavery, etc. were doing it as unto the Lord. They entered into arranged marriages, where the leaders put couples together when it seemed they would complement each other for ministry, and went where they were assigned to go. THESE were the people, the pious rank and file missionaries, who appealed to John Wesley's heart. However, once John Wesley got a glimpse of the inner circle, he separated from them, sadly acknowledging that the rank and file who demonstrated a true heart relationship with Jesus and led him to the same were truly humble servants of the Lord, but that Wesley couldn't continue to assocate with them because of their leaders' beliefs and practices... which determined the rank and file's destiny so to speak.

So they are an excellent example. In many ways, I see the Moravians as the closest historic parallel to MCM and MSI/EN. Since several MCM and MSI/EN leaders (not to mention several leaders in the larger New Apostolic Reformation movement) have specifically lifted up the Moravians as a group to emulate, this isn't an arbitrary comparison at all.

(Message edited by ulyankee on October 28, 2006)

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi UL
You and I have discussed this before, that some elements of this are in En. The Mustard Seed Order, part of Moravian elite's inner circles; this is popular in EN leadership. As in EN hidden inner circle and Moravian there is exchanging of rings and oaths to each other. Dust has also talked about the inner circle in EN. En taught about the Moravians in their history class, they emulated them.

Thanks Anne!!}}

[robert_unknown]

"I forgot to mention, the group that sold themselves into slavery were the Moravians. According to those on this board who have researched this group, they are theologically suspect falling into the Latter Rain camp."

in Europe we had Count Zinsendorfs "Philadelphian Society", an offspring from Jane Leads cult... The forefathers of the NOLR heresy.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Robert
Yes thank you and NOLR, is part of Maranatha and Bob and Rose Weiners thinking.Ah, to see clearly ,that is gift from Him.}

[pilgrim]

Ulyankee,

You said the following about the Moravians.

They entered into arranged marriages, where the leaders put couples together when it seemed they would complement each other for ministry, and went where they were assigned to go.

It looks like by what you have written that the Moravian were mind controlled by the leaders and NOT led by Christ alone ei they went where they were assigned to go on top of having arrange marriages. They were not even free to go to Christ directly to chose a husband or a wife. If that is the case they would have preached a different gospel. Am I right Ulyankee?

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>HI Pilgrim
There is more, they were controlled by Count Zinsendrof, and his ideas of a perfect church. They, the Moravains were fleeing a troubled land, Battle of White Mountain, etc. They needed a place, and the Count made his lands available for them. He made them pray all night, etc, divided the men and women into separate groups. It appears to be an odd mix, to say the least. They held festivals to Mary, there was some thing about Holy Spirit as part of a family... It can be found on the net.}