Healing NOT in the Atonement as taught by WoF

[mcmstaff78]

Continuing the discussion from the "Jesus Camp Movie" thread...I repost my last post of substance on that thread...

Jonathan, yes, I believe it is God's will that everyone be saved. The scriptures specifically say it is. And, if one meets the conditions set in the scriptures, one *shall* be saved.

However, there is no similar expression of God's will for physical healing in the scriptures. Additionally, unless one holds to a Christian Science type of philosophy whereby symptoms of sickness are considered illusory or deceptions and one really *is* healed, then there is no evidence that everyone who exercises faith in healing is healed. In fact, there is incontrovertable evidence that *not* everyone who exercises faith to be healed is healed. The only way faith preachers get around this is to say that those not healed did not properly exercise their faith. This is either explicit or implicit in the teaching - it cannot logically be otherwise - and this is basically demonstrated by your assertion of the "three" reasons why people aren't healed. They really are only one reason, lack of faith. Your "rephrasing" is meaningless - again, a distinction without a difference. A person is not healed because they have not properly exercised their faith. This must be true of Charles Parham (the father of modern "pentecostalism", was the first propent of "healing in the atonement". He was often sick, at least one of his children died early and so many of his followers, and worse, their childre, died of treatable illnesses that the community in which he was "ministering" drove him out).

Then there are the following...(see the next message)

[mcmstaff78]

1. John Osteen, Word of Faith mega-church pastor in Houston - his wife, Dodie got liver cancer and through the mercy of God and medical attention survived.

2. John Osteen himself passed away due to several medical conditions. His church "confessed" his healing and he himself had stated that God told him he would be preaching in the pulpit in his 90's. Osteen died in his 70's.

3. Frederick K. Price, Word of Faith mega-church pastor in Los Angeles - his wife, Betty got cancer and was medically treated (chemo-therapy) and by the mercy of God was patched up. She wrote a book on her ordeal, just surf Betty Price at http://www.amazon.com. I guess after all the years of sitting under "anointed" faith teaching by one of the movements leading faith teachers was not enough for Fred’s wife - she needed a doctor after all.

4. T. L. Osborn's wife, Daisy Osborn, died of cancer. Yet T. L is supposed to have a miracle ministry overseas, yet there was no supernatural healing for his wife.

5. Charles Capps, Word of Faith teacher, teaches power of our words to create reality - his wife got cancer and was medically treated. I guess Chuck’s wife must have not spoken the right magic words to keep the cancer from her body.

6. John Wimber, Signs & Wonders Movement, author of "Power Healing," - just died from cancer. He too, was medically treated - no "power" healing for him, only chemo-therapy.

7. Mack Timberlake, Word of Faith pastor - suffering from throat cancer, getting medical attention.

8. R.W. Schambach, Faith Healer - got a quadruple heart bypass (from a real live human doctor).

9. Dr. Hobart Freeman, Word of Faith teacher & pastor of Faith Assembly - over 90 people died in his church following his teaching and then Hobart died due to a medically treatable disease. They actually took the teachings of the WOF movement to their logical conclusion. They stood on the "promises" alone and believed in their doctrine enough to face painful deaths instead of refusing to deny what they believed. Hobart Freeman is the most chilling testimony of the complete bankruptcy of the WOF errors. If WOF teachings were true they would have certainly worked for Hobart and the 90+ people who died in "faith believing."

10. Prophet Keith Grayton, Prophetic Movement - died of the complications of AIDS. He spoke at our Church in Detroit, and declared he was totally healed. He died a year or so later.

11. Kenneth Hagin, "father" of the Word of Faith Movement - sister died of cancer, Hagin’s great faith and special anointing could not keep her on the planet.

12. Buddy Harrison, Kenneth E. Hagin's son-in-law, died of cancer Dec. 1999. Dad Hagin's "special healing anointing" (read I Believe In Visions by Hagin) could not help his own family member.

[mcmstaff78]

From the above, you can see that even for those who have taught and sat under this teaching for YEARS, it does <u>not</u> work! This is the most obvious pattern of the devil - suck people in, get them to commit themselves to something, then yank the rug out from under them.

Jonathan, I've read and studied all this stuff. You write to me as if I'm ignorant of the teachings. I remind you again, I studied everything Hagin wrote on the subject. I studied T. J. McCrossan's work, Bosworth's, John G. Lake, T. L. Osborn, etc., etc.

But I guess for me, and for all those marvellous faith teachers listed above, we didn't have enough faith, or didn't work it properly, huh?

And this, Jonathan, is why this doctrine is so spiritually abusive. It blames the victim and heaps guilt and condemnation upon him or her on top of the physical dis-ease he or she may be experiencing. This is a doctrine of the devil, straight from the deceiver or seeks to condemn people and keep them from fully loving God.

This life is a probationary period. We will never understand all that happens to us or why it happens. But I do know that whatever we confront, God is with us, whether healing or not healing, whether delivering us from the fire or walking with us as we go through it. If we stand firm and hold fast, loving God with all our hearts, forgiving our debtors as we are forgiven, loving our enemies and doing good to them - i.e. taking up our cross daily and following our Lord Jesus Christ in faith, love and obedience, we shall be saved.

[matt_hatter]

I am popping up the Orville Reddenbacher, propping my feet up and waiting on the response, 78. Excellent post.

We serve God----because he is God!
"but even if He doesn't deliver us, we will still serve Him!"

I wish our young friend would just think logically for once, to know that:
"My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, declares the Lord (Is 55:8)

It is the heart of pure arrogance to think that a finite pea brain human (I am speaking of the human race, Krems, not you personally, just so I won't get jumped on) could fathom all that an infinite, all consuming God is doing. Yet, I know already a simplistic, ribbon tied answer to you above post will be in short order....

[wisedove]

Heb. 11:13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

It is possible to have faith, and never live to see the evidence of the promises of God.

[freedom43]

Amen to that mcmstaff78.

krems -- you say you don't mean to be arrogant or manipulative. But, you sure come across that way when you can sit here and dismiss mcmcstaff's faith or my friend's faith as inadequate or somehow faulty when a) you don't know her and b) she has been believing God for healing longer than you have been alive. You judge people and place your doctrine, your interpretation of Scripture above all else -- above love and compassion -- and come across like an unreceptive know it all.

I have not hung on every word that has come out of your mouth but not once have I heard you quote I Cor 13:12: For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part...i.e. that perhaps you could be wrong or not have full knowledege. Additionally, you contradict yourself in every thread to defend your positions, using your interpretation of Scripture to smack down others but not to defend your views. For example, in one thread, you attacked Charles Stanley for being "carnal" basd on your gut. Then you turned around and quoted Scrpiture to smack down someone for saying something you didn't like about a WOF preacher. You refuse to accept admonishment from others here because you say it is not your church. Yet, in the same thread, you say God will hold people accountable for not accepting a word of encouragement from you here. Where is the fairness and humility in that?

Back in the old Maranatha days, they would have said someone like you had a stubborn and unteachable spirit. Not sure what I believe about that. And, I am certainly not saying that I have not been guilty of all that I am saying about you. I guess I am just hoping that somehow some of these words may get through to you to help you see how you are perceived by some of us here.

I realize this post may not sit well with some folks and that I might be accused of "attacking krems." I'll say a few things on that. He can say whatever he wants --we can all chose to read it or respond or not. I am not saying anything to him that I would not say to anyone in my life if they said the things he has said and came across the way he comes across. Like my mother, I have to say what's on my mind. I also do believe his doctrine is hurtful to many on this board and will be to him one day -- and I am hoping something we say can help him start to at least question it. I am trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. I can't decide if he is just arrogant and manipulative or naive, immature and intellectually limited because he doesn't see the contradictions he makes and cannot seem to be able to communicate in ways that are less offensive. Finally, I am a strong believer in the proverb that essentially says wisdom makes knowledge acceptable. Perhpas krems has knowledge to share with us but lacks wisdom. I personally have a real hard time ever "hearing" anything from someone who can never admit they might be wrong and who comes across like they have an ego the size of Texas. Sorry this is mostly off topic.

[wisedove]

<font color="0000ff"><font size="+1">I don't know how this will help. I found it in my quickverse software, and thought it is pertinent. </font></font>

PROBLEMS (Adversity, Difficulties, Obstacles)

USEFUL PROBLEMS

What good can come out of problems?

BIBLE READING: Genesis 12:10-20

KEY BIBLE VERSE: There was at that time a terrible famine in the land: and so Abram went on down to Egypt to live. (Genesis 12:10, tlb)

Problems test our faith. When famine struck, Abram went to Egypt where there was food. Why would there be a famine in the land where God had just called Abram? This was a test of Abram’s faith, and Abram passed. He didn’t question God’s leading when facing this difficulty. Many believers find that when they determine to follow God, they immediately encounter great obstacles. The next time you face such a test, don’t try to second-guess what God is doing. Use the intelligence God gave you, as Abram did when he temporarily moved to Egypt, and wait for new opportunities.

BIBLE READING: Philippians 1:12-30

KEY BIBLE VERSE: And I want you to know this, dear brothers: Everything that has happened to me here has been a great boost in getting out the Good News concerning Christ. (Philippians 1:12, tlb)

Problems open up opportunities for service. Being imprisoned would cause many people to become bitter or to give up, but Paul saw it as one more opportunity to spread the Good News of Christ. Paul realized that his current circumstances weren’t as important as what he did with them. Turning a bad situation into a good one, he reached out to the Roman soldiers who made up the palace guard and encouraged those Christians who were afraid of persecution. We may not be in prison, but we still have plenty of opportunities to be discouraged—times of indecision, financial burdens, family conflict, church conflict, or the loss of our jobs. How we act in such situations will reflect what we believe. Like Paul, look for ways to demonstrate your faith even in bad situations. Whether or not the situation improves, your faith will grow stronger.

[wisedove]

BIBLE READING: 2 Thessalonians 1:1-12

KEY BIBLE VERSE: This is only one example of the fair, just way God does things, for he is using your sufferings to make you ready for his Kingdom. (2 Thessalonians 1:5, tlb)

Problems may be confirmation that we are living for Christ. As we live for Christ, we will experience troubles because we are trying to be God’s people in a perverse world. Some people say that troubles are the result of sin or lack of faith, but Paul teaches that they may be a part of God’s plan for believers. Our problems can help us look upward and forward, instead of inward (Mark 13:35-36; Philippians 3:13-14); they can build strong character (Romans 5:3-4); and they can provide us with opportunities to comfort others who also are struggling (2 Corinthians 1:3-5). Your troubles may be an indication that you are taking a stand for Christ.

USELESS PROBLEMS

What kinds of mistakes do we commonly make in handling problems?

BIBLE READING: Genesis 16:1-16

KEY BIBLE VERSE: But Sarai and Abram had no children. So Sarai took her maid, an Egyptian girl named Hagar, and gave her to Abram to be his second wife. “Since the Lord has given me no children,” Sarai said, “you may sleep with my servant girl, and her children shall be mine.” And Abram agreed. (This took place ten years after Abram had first arrived in the land of Canaan.) (Genesis 16:1-3, tlb)

We fail to wait patiently for God’s solution. Sarai took matters into her own hands by giving Hagar to Abram. Like Abram, she had trouble believing God’s promise that was directed specifically toward Abram and Sarai. Out of this lack of faith came a series of problems. This invariably happens when we take over for God, trying to make his promise come true through efforts that are not in line with his specific directions. In this case, time was the greatest test of Abram and Sarai’s willingness to let God work in their lives. Sometimes we too must simply wait. When we ask God for something and have to wait, it is a temptation to take matters into our own hands and interfere with God’s plans.

We blame others when our solutions fail. Although Sarai arranged for Hagar to have a child by Abram, she later blamed Abram for the results. It is often easier to strike out in frustration and accuse someone else rather than admit an error and ask forgiveness. (Adam and Eve did the same thing in Genesis 3:12-13.)

We run from problems we should face. Hagar was running away from her mistress and her problem. The angel of the Lord gave her this advice: (1) to return and face Sarai, the cause of her problem, and (2) to submit to her. Hagar needed to work on her attitude toward Sarai, no matter how justified it may have been. Running away from our problems rarely solves them. It is wise to return to our problems, face them squarely, accept God’s promise of help, correct our attitudes, and act as we should.

[wisedove]

BIBLE READING: Job 2:1-10

KEY BIBLE VERSE: But he replied, “You talk like some heathen woman. What? Shall we receive only pleasant things from the hand of God and never anything unpleasant?” So in all this Job said nothing wrong. (Job 2:10, tlb)

We question God’s purposes in our life. Many people think that believing in God protects them from trouble, so when calamity comes, they question God’s goodness and justice. But the message of Job is that you should not give up on God because he allows you to have bad experiences. Faith in God does not guarantee personal prosperity, and lack of faith does not guarantee troubles in this life. If this were so, people would believe in God simply to get rich. God is capable of rescuing us from suffering, but he may also allow suffering to come for reasons we cannot understand. It is Satan’s strategy to get us to doubt God at exactly this moment. Here Job shows a perspective broader than seeking his own personal comfort. If we always knew why we were suffering, our faith would have no room to grow.

PROBLEM SOLVING

How does God want us to respond to problems?

BIBLE READING: James 1:1-18

KEY BIBLE VERSE: Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. (James 1:2-4, niv)

Realize that problems are inevitable. James doesn’t say if you face trials, but whenever you face them. He assumes that we will have trials and that it is possible to profit from them. The point is not to pretend to be happy when we face pain, but to have a positive outlook (“consider it pure joy”) because of what trials can produce in our life. James tells us to turn our hardships into times of learning. Tough times can teach us perseverance. For other passages dealing with perseverance (also called patience and steadfastness), see Romans 2:7; 5:3-5; 8:24-25; 2 Corinthians 6:3-7; and 2 Peter 1:3-9.

Expect to grow as a result of problems. We can’t really know the depth of our character until we see how we react under pressure. It is easy to be kind to others when everything is going well, but can we still be kind when others are treating us unfairly? God wants to make us mature and complete, not to keep us from all pain. Instead of complaining about our struggles, we should see them as opportunities for growth. Thank God for promising to be with you in rough times. Ask him to help you solve your problems or to give you the strength to endure them. Then be patient. God will not leave you alone with your problems; he will stay close and help you grow.
BIBLE READING: John 6:1-15

KEY BIBLE VERSE: When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?” (John 6:5, niv)

Trust God for the means to solve the problem. When Jesus asked Philip where they could buy a great amount of bread, Philip started assessing the probable cost. Jesus wanted to teach him that financial resources are not the most important ones. We can limit what God does in us by assuming what is and is not possible. Is there some impossible task that you believe God wants you to do? Don’t let your estimate of what can’t be done keep you from taking on the task. God can do the miraculous; trust him to provide the resources.

[wisedove]

BIBLE READING: Romans 8:28-39

KEY BIBLE VERSE: And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28, niv)

Trust in God’s sovereign purposes for our life. God works in “all things”—not just isolated incidents—for our good. This does not mean that all that happens to us is good. Evil is prevalent in our fallen world, but God is able to turn every circumstance around for our long-range good. Note that God is not working to make us happy, but to fulfill his purpose. Note also that this promise is not for everybody. It can be claimed only by those who love God and are called according to his purpose. Those who are “called” are those the Holy Spirit convinces and enables to receive Christ. Such people have a new perspective, a new mind-set on life. They trust in God, not life’s treasures; they look for their security in heaven, not on earth; they learn to accept, not resent, pain and persecution—because God is with them.

[matt_hatter]

freedom, good post. I feel like I have to qualify my thoughts about krems, because it reminds me in here of the part in "To Kill a Mockingbird" where Sheriff Tate said that all the ladies in Maycomb county will be bringing Boo Radley angel food cakes.

There has been a lot said about giving him respect blah blah, but the bottom line is his discourse is dangerous and his world view is about as significant as the little world of Tulsa OK. Continue to speak though krems, you only are serving to prove how very arrogant a microscopic theology like WoF and EN really is.

Am still waiting for you to explain EACH one of the Father's of your faith 's situations listed above by 78.

Just feeling spunky with the cool air this morning. No angel food cakes please.

[wisedove]

angel food cakes?! i'm eatin chocolate covered almonds...

[dust]

Matt: a microscopic theology like WoF and EN really is.

Dust: Just to clear something up that is misunderstood here, I was part of EN...what Krems expresses is NOT EN theology...I know I was there. In fact, a complaint at the Bethel church was that healing was not much a part of the ministry.

[matt_hatter]

My word should have been "or" not "and".
Same for Maranatha. It was not a WoF ministry, but EN and MCM are/were definitely "microscopic theology" movements, 'like' WoF. Different movements, but all dangerous. Thanks for the clarification.

[mcmstaff78]

Dove, thanks for the scriptures. Trials come for many reasons, and they leave or do not leave for many reasons. What stays constant is God's love, and, through His Grace, we can remain steadfast in faith as we confront these trials. I quote a while back the Apostle Peter, who wrote:

Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (1Pe 1:6-9)

Every trial that comes our way, God can use for the ultimate saving of our souls if we confront them trusting in Him.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (Rom 8:28)

I have seen trials come and go. I have seen a three year old precious child of God be diagnosed with Stage 4 cancer and, a year later, be in complete remision to the Glory of God. I have seen others be prayed for, anointed with oil, yet ultimately die and early death. We will all die eventually, save those who are here when Christ returns. Christ destroyed the power of death by His death and it holds no longer holds a sting. There is sorrow, but that sorrow shall one day be turned into joy in the presence of Him Who shall wipe away every tear.


For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. (1Co 15:53-58)

}AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER? Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right. (1Pe 4:18-19)

"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.' (Rev 2:8-11)

[pilgrim]

jbkrems,

You wrote, And I am sorry if I come across as arrogant. I do not mean to do so. But sometimes I read things here that doctrinally tick me off, because its just wrong doctrines.


From my friend who is on the wheelchair. I am in her home at the moment. We have the same internet provider. I was surprised to see the same IP address in my previous post from her home.

She said that you are not arrogant at all but you are just ignorant. She also said that we have no room for arrogance in the word of God. We only need to be humble and open minded to reach fulness of understanding of his work by his grace. She also says that the word of God is so sweet specially when he opens our minds to understand it as it is.

Where is room for Thy Will be done if we could order God to do things all the time. She believes that God can and will heal her when the time is right for his glory. She has been on a wheelchair for 12 years now and she has always believed that God can heal her. Does it matter what time God chooses to heal someone?

[wisedove]

mcm78
you're welcome. Standing with you.

Remember what I said on the other thread about a dear friend of ours. I had a burden to pray for this precious child who was born disabled. This child died right around the age of 2. I cried so hard, but not because God didn't answer prayers. I had a release from that burden, for God showed me the child in heaven, walking, leaping, and praising God. There's a song that kept coming to my mind about "walking, and leaping, and praising God." This child never got to do this on earth. (yet) she is in heaven having the time of her life.

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Dust: Just to clear something up that is misunderstood here, I was part of EN...what Krems expresses is NOT EN theology...I know I was there. In fact, a complaint at the Bethel church was that healing was not much a part of the ministry.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I attended the EN church in Palos Verdes for one year. Healing was noticeably focused on there. We had one Sunday service in which no sermon was preached; rather, the entire time was spent praying over those in need of some sort of healing--no one I knew got healed. The subject of miraculous healing also popped up fairly frequently (in my opinion) in the sermons of various pastors and speakers. They seemed to think that working miracles of healing ought to be their right as children of God, and it appeared to me that they felt a lot of wistfulness because they were unable to perform those sorts of miracles. The speakers regularly exhorted the congregation to have more faith in this respect, and to me at least the pastors and leaders always seemed to have the expectation that an outpouring of miracles was just around the corner if we could all just submit to God enough and possess the proper degree of faith.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

pilgrim: She also said that we have no room for arrogance in the word of God. We only need to be humble and open minded to reach fulness of understanding of his work by his grace.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Absolutely. Humility and love of one's enemies is the height of virtue. The Apostle James writes: But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. (Jam 4:6) and Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. (Jam 4:10)

And the Apostle Peter declares Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:(1Pe 5:5-6)

Pride and arrogance drives God's Grace from us. Humility draws Him to us.

[dust]

J2, I believe you..This makes the point that you can't paint EN with such a broad brushstroke. Yes, they were a church that believed in healing and that is biblical.

But, during the five years of attendance there, I only remember one Sunday where they made an issue of it and they still had a sermon. Now, I worked the altar every week, and people were encouraged to come and pray. Once we did get the oil out and pray for man in a wheelchair who came down, and we got the elders, etc. But, the kind of focus that MCM and Krems are talking about or the Benny Hinn focus...it wasn't there.

I am a person who likes to pray for the sick. So, I beleive God can heal, but doesn't always heal. But, I've seen healings or quick recoveries, etc. It was true that most of us on the ministry team didn't think the "gifts" were allowed to flow...they were CONTROLLED. And, this was controlling the Holy Spirit.

From everything I hear, the PV church was very controlling in just about every way and much more abusive in general than Bethel. Bethel is larger (3000) so it was easier to navigate to a different pastor. The pastor I reported to was not of the EN brand. Almost the opposite (maybe God's protection for me) and he had sons born with a disease that were supposed to die and they battled in prayer for those children who are grown and living and playing sports that was against everything the doctors said could happen. So I want to still believe God for these things.
But, not condemn anyone when it doesn't happen. Very very different.
I think in a church of 250 (like PV), you can't do that...and everything you did would be noticed. That must have been very very abusive at times.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

j2: and to me at least the pastors and leaders always seemed to have the expectation that an outpouring of miracles was just around the corner if we could all just submit to God enough and possess the proper degree of faith.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> My experience in my WoF church was the same - an "outpouring of miracles" was always just around the corner if the people would only believe. The preasure to elevate our faith as a congregation was immense, especially when we had "special" speakers.

The thing I've heard the most from people who left this type of environment was the enormous sense of relief they no longer had to put on a front. For those who endure this for a good while, every service eventually becomes a facade. No matter your problems, your trials, you come in "confessing" that everything is wonderful and that you are "overcoming". Whenever I think of this I'm reminded of Martin Luther King quoting the old spiritual, free at last, free at last - thank God almighty, I'm free at last!

(Message edited by mcmstaff78 on October 14, 2006)

[vanguard]

Dust ,

I did came from PV church, its not 250, at most I think its 150 people. Over the years, a lot of people left. A lot more in the year 2000, like an exodus. Then the most recent with Tony Fetchel, that broke the church down. Now its hovering to 20 families or less.

The Abuse is very evident. More so under Tony Fetchel, he was given a Free Pass to do anything he wants under the sun. While Phil's daughter she was given also a Free Pass to do anything she wants to the single women there.

If one is single , whether students or not. They get abused most.
But the married ones, they tend to leave them alone. As long as they do not voice out their concerns.

[dust]

Here's the funny thing. I almost ended up in that church when I got saved and was looking for a church! I lived in Long Beach. Thank GOD I didn't. I went to Cottonwood Christian Center that had six services and couldn't make enough seats for people, while not so far away there is the PV church and it can't grow. There is a huge Christian movement in Californnia,..people are converting all over the place and the churches are filled up. EN should have been able to have several huge churches there. But, converts don't put up with religious garbage, especially in California...I doubt they'll ever really grow there. I can tell you even from the way they pray about the PV church, they don't have the right heart for the people, but then that's another story!

[dust]

J2,

Of ALL the churches you could have ended up at in California it had to be the PV church. That's a shame; they are a sham and NOT at all representative of what I've seen as Christianity there.

[vanguard]

I can tell you even from the way they pray about the PV church, they don't have the right heart for the people, but then that's another story!
== Tell me that story.

The PV church hated me for exposing Phil Bonasso early on. The refused to beleive it, bur for two years, time and time again , I told them he stole money from the building. They just recently found out about it when EN had them a check of ONLY $500,000 from the sale of that building. That building value is $3 million.

Do they still hate me for this ? Yea, I guess. They do not want to be proven wrong. Its an EN attitude. So I am fine with it, just accept them who they are.

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Dust: Of ALL the churches you could have ended up at in California it had to be the PV church. That's a shame; they are a sham and NOT at all representative of what I've seen as Christianity there.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
There were individual Christians within the PV church who I really respected. In fact, my respect for them and their Christian spirit was the main reason why I started attending that church. I also to agree that not all EN churches are the same. However, I believe that the PV church displays very clearly what the Every Nation institution is at its core. The PV church was EN's west coast hub. Phil Bonasso, one of EN's founders and "apostles", was based there. EN's Graduate School of Campus Ministry was located there. And, unlike some other EN churches, the PV church was small enough that the pastors could give indivual attention to basically all of the members. If any church within EN could have purely and accurately represented Every Nation's vision and mindset it was the Palos Verdes church, which, I think, makes its dysfunction all the more chilling.

[dust]

J1, when I said NOT a represenative of what I've seen as Christianity there" What I meant was what I saw as Christianity in CALIFORNIA, not what I saw in EN. Big big difference.

Still what I'm saying was that it was easier to NOT come under so much fire at Bethel. Many are just attending church on Sunday, etc. But, yes, ALL of EN has problems. Phil Bonasso used to come and preach at Bethel, and I honestly HAD NO IDEA what kind of person he was. Because he was comical, used to make fun of himself. It was only AFTER I LFET EN, that I heard what he was really like.

[dust]

J2, I'm sorry, I just saw a typo. I called you J1.

And ,I'm not a good writer. So sometimes, I don't make myself clear.

[wildwood_]

I've just briefly read through the posts on this thread and I'm going to come back later and ponder more deeply the riches that have been written that for me step beyond doctrine to just look at "Healing". As I read, I started re-evaluating what exactly do I understand "Divine Healing" to be...obviously for the "Good Health" of the individual, a "Sign &amp; Wonder" to confirm Jesus as the "Son of God", to confirm the "Word of God" and bring people to see the "Glory of God".

Pilgrim, your friend in the wheelchair surely must be among the most "Healed" Believers that I've ever known of...

So I went back and looked up the passage below. And started thinking...hmmm, just when was the crippled man healed? When he got up and walked or when he met Jesus face-to-face and Jesus forgave his sins? I know the Lord can do miracles daily; but I'm beginning to believe that He'd rather do "Healing"...and perhaps that was not at all the same event as the Cripple getting up and walking...especially knowing that Jesus specifically says Many will say to me on that day,'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers.} Matt 7:23

This topic has been lengthy, I apologize if I've echoed thoughts already posted elsewhere or re-quote what has been posted before..sometimes I loose track of it all http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif...Matthew 9:1-13 (Amplified Bible) <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>


1AND JESUS, getting into a boat, crossed to the other side and came to His own town [Capernaum].
2And behold, they brought to Him a man paralyzed and prostrated by illness, lying on a sleeping pad; and when Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralyzed man, Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven and the penalty remitted.
3And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, This man blasphemes [He claims the rights and prerogatives of God]!
4But Jesus, knowing (seeing) their thoughts, said, Why do you think evil and harbor [c]malice in your hearts?
5For which is easier: to say, Your sins are forgiven and the penalty remitted, or to say, Get up and walk?
6But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins and remit the penalty, He then said to the paralyzed man, Get up! Pick up your sleeping pad and go to your own house.
7And he got up and went away to his own house.
8When the crowds saw it, they were struck with fear and awe; and they recognized God and praised and thanked Him, Who had given such power and authority to men.
9As Jesus passed on from there, He saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's office; and He said to him,Be My disciple [side with My party and follow Me]. And he rose and followed Him.
10And as Jesus reclined at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and [especially wicked] sinners came and sat (reclined) with Him and His disciples.
11And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, Why does your Master eat with tax collectors and those [preeminently] sinful?
12But when Jesus heard it, He replied, Those who are strong and well (healthy) have no need of a physician, but those who are weak and sick.
13Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy [that is, readiness to help those in trouble] and not sacrifice and sacrificial victims. For I came not to call and invite [to repentance] the righteous (those who are upright and in right standing with God), but sinners (the erring ones and all those not free from sin).<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Dust: when I said NOT a represenative of what I've seen as Christianity there" What I meant was what I saw as Christianity in CALIFORNIA, not what I saw in EN. Big big difference.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
It did cross my mind that by "them" you meant all Christian churches in California. But then I ignored that thought in favor of the idea that you simply mean "all EN churches in CA". Much like the Nazi in Indian Jones and the Last Crusade I chose poorly.

I did attend another church in LA--Calvary Chapel Metro pastored by Steve Snook. I thought it was pretty decent; although, when I was attending, I was not aware of some of the issues affecting Calvary Chapel (http://www.phoenixpreacher.com/) as a whole. As a pointless but possibly interesting tidbit--I'm pretty sure that Tiffany Dupont, the actress who plays Esther in One Night With The King attended CC Metro.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Dust: J2, I'm sorry, I just saw a typo. I called you J1.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
No worries. Technically, I suppose I am as much J1 as I am J2. I chose the name J2 because my first name is Jessica and my middle name is Jean--two Js.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

wildwood: I know the Lord can do miracles daily; but I'm beginning to believe that He'd rather do "Healing"...<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Bingo. I think you are exactly right here. There is something far more important than mere physical healing, there is the wholeness of the person, his salvation in the total, holistic sense of the scriptural word. That this is possible is seen in our Lord's admonition that "it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire." (Mt. 18:8) I've seen way too much in the way of a shallow faith that seeks God's blessings but not God Himself; that wants to live in material prosperity but has poverty of the soul; that seeks to experience the miraculous in the external world but denies the miracle of the truly transformed life. God wants to remake us in His image. Too many of us simply want to add a few things on to an image with which we are quite content.

Salvation, healing, wholeness is not a thing that God gives - it is God Himself. God gives us Himself!! And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (1Jo 5:11-12) This is, as the Apostle Paul writes, the mystery of the ages, Christ in you, the hope of glory. When one seeks after things, after blessings, after promises, one is missing the point, and missing Christ. He who hath not the Son of God hath not life.

[dust]

J2: I chose the name J2 because my first name is Jessica and my middle name is Jean--two Js.

The MYSTERY is out...I thought it was some HIGH TECH thinghttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[jbkrems]

Hi folks,

I will respond to everything above later this evening. I have to take care of a few things now.

[jbkrems]

Hi folks,

I will respond to everything above later this evening. I have to take care of a few things now.

[jbkrems]

Alright, as promised, I am going to respond to several of the points made here, in the order in which they were originally posted...

mcmstaff: I responded to you briefly over in the other thread, but I am going to pick up here with your 2nd post, where you list several WOF preachers and teachers (some of whom I am VERY unfamiliar with, e.g. Hobart Freeman), and begin there...

You are drawing conclusions from your own experience, and the experiences of others. You cannot do that. Rather, you can only develop your theology from the Scriptures.

We had a guy back at my church in St. Louis, who died because he gave up the fight of faith against ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease). Did that mean we stopped confessing healing for others, and stopped believing that healing is provided for in the atonement? Of course not. No way. Just because you do not see the desired result or outcome does not mean that healing is not in the atonement...

Look, I do not know why some do not receive their healing here on earth. Sometimes it IS because of a lack of faith. Sometimes it IS for OTHER reasons. Only God can discern the heart. But to say that healing is NOT provided for in the atonement based on experiential evidence (that's what is being provided here) is NOT a basis to develop's ones theology.

Matt: I agree with most of what you said, actually. That we need to continue to serve God no matter what.

Wisedove: Yes, absolutely, that is SOOOO true, which is why faith is so essential.

Freedom: I'm sorry you feel that way. Its rather difficult to pick up tone of voice, and other non-verbals here on the Boards. I think a lot of people here read emotion into the content that I post, and you shouldn't do that, because then you make conclusions, e.g. "He's arrogant," or "He's manipulative," or "Krems is whatever," when such is really not true. And I am working on editing my posts so that they are not condescending and so forth.

I understand you do not like the way I have communicated here in the past, freedom, but I'm working on changing my tone and approach. I have not quoted 1 Cor. 13 because it has not yet been relevant to the topics under discussion.

[jbkrems]

Continuing...

Wisedove: Earlier today, you posted several posts, which started with the big, bold, blue text, and I will devote this post to yours beginning there...

Your Scriptures address the issue of adversity and suffering. But I believe the Bible is very clear that healing is NOT a form of suffering. Even mcmstaff has acknowledged in another thread that physical illness and disease has its source in demonic oppression. But healing is NOT a form of suffering. Suffering, when it is persecution for righteousness' sake, or when it is reaping what we sow for disobedience, is a totally different issue, and outside the scope of this thread. So, if you wish to discuss that, please start another thread, so I can address it there.

On the other hand, here we are discussing healing, and the fact that it is provided for in the atonement.

Wisedove: You cite Romans 8 from the NIV. The NAS renders that passage this way, "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." But, God is not "in all things"; that is an incorrect rendering of the text. Rather, God causes all things to work together. He causes the working together of all things. But He does NOT cause all things. God is not the author of sin, nor of pain, nor of sickness and disease. I disagree that people must learn to accept pain, based on this verse. Pain (and sickness, etc.) is of the devil. We are not to experience pain when it is linked to physical illness. It was covered in the atonement, just like our sins. That is what Isaiah 53 is all about, and what Matthew 8 is all about (and other verses, too).

[jbkrems]

Continued...

mcmstaff: I am picking up with your post #292...

Sure God can use our trials. I agree with that. However, I do not put physical illness in the category of trials. Trials are not included in the atonement, but physical illnesses and diseases, and emotional struggles, and the like, all of that can be be healed, and such healing is provided for in the atonement.

Where in the Scripture does it negate the proposition that healing is in the atonement???

You've yet to answer that question, mcmstaff.

Pilgrim: I think I addressed before, but if not, you asked whether it matters when God chooses to heal or not. I cannot really answer that question, because God has already decided to heal everyone that comes to God and asks for healing. Its just like salvation. God has already provided salvation for all. Healing works the same way. You have the power to receive it by faith, or not. Its not about God's timing, and "God will heal me when I'm ready," or something like that.

j2: Its no wonder no one got healed when there was no sermon. The purpose of signs and wonders is to accompany the preaching of the Word of God. If there is no preaching, then don't expect miracles.

I think that is a wrap for now of all the above comments. I welcome you all's responses.

[40days40years]

krems: Even mcmstaff has acknowledged in another thread that physical illness and disease has its source in demonic oppression.

Sometimes thats true but what if you drink polluted water or eat rotten food? Eat shellfish that filtered the redtide algae through it's system and then you get sick eating it? Your body is kind of like a car. You buy a new car it's great but eventually it falls apart. Eat pork rinds instead of broccoli and you might get in trouble. You might get cancer because your DNA broke down because it was exposed to, to much radiation? The devil did'nt create that. Maybe you get a mutation that you pass on to your kid? I can't give the devil all the credit for glitches in the machine, if your computer breaks down will you say it's the devil?

I wanted a body like a Ferrari but the Lord made me a Pinto hatchback. I will confess, I am a Ferrari, I am a Ferrari.

[jbkrems]

40:

You asked what if you drink polluted water or eat rotten food. In Mark 16, Jesus said Himself, "These signs will follow those that believe... if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them." So, you can claim this Scripture and find protection, in that kind of situation.

You also said that the devil did not create radiation? That may be true, but the devil did create the cancer that resulted from the cancer.

We live in a fallen world, which is a result of the SIN of Adam... but the author of SIN is the devil, Satan. I think you know that. Anything that does not come from the Lord, is either from the devil, or from a combination of human flesh, AND the devil.

[miltietoast]

oh cast

WOF is a a fear of death theology period.

[matt_hatter]

WOF is a a fear of death theology period.

This is an interesting observation Milt. It does make you wonder. Everytime I see Copeland, his hair looks even blacker, almost Elvis Blue-black. And Gloria, is she Asian now? The face is so tight...hmmm...You know our friend 'nasso has a family trait of gray hair that starts with the men just outta high school. How did his stay so black?

These are the things that WoF does to people. I actually think the father of their faith was a one Juan Ponce de Leon, searching for the fountain of youth.

For all interested: Ponce de Leon, FL is a cool little redneck town on the way to Panama City. You can buy fresh fruit/veggies and 3-for-$10 tee shirts at various roadside stands along the main drag. Best boiled peanuts I ever ate. The old Spainard didn't find the fountain of youth, but they sure can boil the nuts down there.

Seriously, WoF is not far from the superstitions of the fountain of youth. Looking at the fleshly bodies of some, like the Copelands, make it all too real.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Krems: Where in the Scripture does it negate the proposition that healing is in the atonement???<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> The burden of proof is on the affirmative. You've taken one passage of scripture and made a theology out of it. The passage from Isaiah is dealing with sin, not physical sickness. The Apostle Matthew applies the passage to the particular episode of Jesus' ministry because the people were being healed in far more than just the narrow physical sense, but in a holistic sense. To extrapolate from one passage to an entire theology (which experience demonstrates does not work) is faulty. Also, you have made the analogy between healing and salvation. But St. Paul lists gifts of healing as one of the Grace-workings of the Spirit but he doesn't similarly list "gifts of salvation". Why not? Because they are not analogous.

Please note that I never equated all sicknesses as from sin and/or demonic forces. There is the passage in the Gospel of John the emphatically refutes this...

And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.(Joh 9:2-4) (BTW, please don't try to give us Hagin's faulty re-translation of this passage saying the period is the wrong place. That horse don't run.

Jonathan, the experiences of these "great men of faith" is entirely relevant. WoF and other proponents of "healing in the Atonement" espouse a doctrine unknown to the Church for 1900 years (I'm certainly not aware of anyone teaching it prior to the end of the 19th century). The fact that the doctrine is a failure and has resulted not only in terribly emotionally abusive tactics in churches where it is taught, but in the untimely deaths of many innocents, demonstrates the vacuousness of the doctrine.

Simply stated, anyone who puts his trust in this doctrine is gambling with his life. This is fine when you are responsible only for yourself. Unfortunately too often it is done for innocent ones as well, who suffer because of the ignorance of their parents.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!(Mat 18:6-7)

(Message edited by mcmstaff78 on October 15, 2006)

[jbkrems]

mcmstaff:

There are several other passages in Isaiah that deal with the sin-sickness/atonement connection. All of Isaiah 53 deals with it. Matthew 8, as you have acknowledged, deals with it. Several other Scriptures in the Old Testament, beginning in Deuteronomy, and also in Psalms and other passages deals with it. I could provide you, if you would like, a list of passages in the Bible that deal with healing being provided for in the Atonement. Please let me know if this list of passages would be helpful to our discussion.

And, I am not extrapolating a theology from just Matthew 8 and Isaiah 53, like I said, there are several other passages that support the proposition that healing is provided for in the atonement. Please just let me know if you'd like me to share those passages with you.

The "gifts of healing" that Paul lists, though, is different than salvation. The "gifts of healing," are of the person praying for the sick. So, when the believer prays for the sick (as in Mark 16), then the believer can expect to receive "gifts of healing," which the pray-er can then impart to the pray-ee (the recipient). For instance, and I know several here will not like this analogy, Evangelist Benny Hinn has "gifts of healing," operating in his life. Please note that it is the person doing the ministry, and not the recipient, that receives the "gifts of healing."

Would you posit that all sickness is a result of the fallen world that we live in, which is the result of sinful nature of man, which is the result of demonic forces??? Or do you disagree?

mcmstaff, I do not know what you are discussing, mentioning Hagin's re-translation "period in the wrong place," comment. I have never heard of that. But I do not believe John 9 disproves the sin-sickess connection. I do not believe that just because YOU sin, then there is sickness. I also do not believe just because YOU have sickness, that you have sinned. Rather...

I believe that demonic forces are the source of both sin AND sickness. Clearly, demonic forces are the source of sin (Satan tricked Adam and Eve into eating the forbidden fruit). However, in addition, the fallen world, which is a product of sin, has produced sickness. So, it is more of an indirect, than direct link.

Experience is not relevant at all, on a primary level. At least at my church, we preach the Scriptures, and only rely secondarily on experience. So, in developing one's theology, you must start with the Scriptures, and then so long as your experiences agree with the Word of God, then you can bring the experiences in, but only if they are in agreement with the Word.

If experience does NOT line up with the Bible, then you CANNOT include them in your thinking, because the experiences are wrong, and invalid. So, we believe that healing is in the atonement, and we have plenty of Scriptures to validate that point. But you go to the other way around. You do NOT begin with Scriptures. You begin with negative experiences, and then try to interpret the Scriptures to validate them. You cannot do that; your exegesis is not in the correct order.

Lastly, I want to address one thing. We do NOT put trust in this doctrine. We put our trust in the name of Jesus, and the power of His name to heal, deliver, save, etc. We put our trust in the authority of Christ that every believer has the God-given right to tap into (its our inheritance as Christians).

[miltietoast]

maybe there are no signs of healing in the United States because there are no believers.
As krems says in Mark 16 these signs shall follow the believers,which means there are no believers in WOFer community or others for that matter

[jbkrems]

Miltie:

But there are signs of healing in the U.S., in many charismatic and WOF churches, where people do get healed. I've watched many services over the Internet where people get healed.

Also, there are ministers who travel around the world, which preach the Gospel, win the lost, and then people are healed, and there is signs and wonders. Three examples of such ministers are: Benny Hinn, Reinhard Bonneke, and Rodney Howard-Browne.

[lablady2]

krems: An example and a question. Let's say someone has cancer in an early stage and they elect to take chemotherapy treatments. The chemo cures the cancer and they live until they die a natural death. Is that healing from God? If God is capable of healing without medication, should a sick person use medication or does that demonstrate a lack of faith? As a nurse, I'm really very interested in your answer.

[miltietoast]

I have gone to some healing meetings and they are a farce.TV does wonders with distorting reality. I know because I used to own two TV stations

[jbkrems]

Lablady:

I think it is important for the person believing for their healing to pray and ask God for their healing, and then as a part of that, maybe, depending on the situation, ask God how they should be healed. In other words, if the diagnosis is cancer, pray, "God, what kind of treatment should we be seeking?"

I believe God can use chemo and similar treatment in order to heal cancer. But I also believe God does not NECESSARILY have to use chemo in order to heal someone of cancer. So, chemo can become unnecessary, IF the person has sufficient faith to manifest their healing.

To answer some of your questions more succinctly, God is capable of healing without medication, BUT a sick person using such medication does NOT demonstrate a lack of faith. However, I would pray for God to give guidance before just accepting medication as the route to healing. That is, this is why I believe that it is good and right for the believer to be going to a Christian physician who understands these principles, and is not going to speak doubt, unbelief, and "no hope, no cure" to the Christian patient.

Lablady, does that answer your question???

Miltie: I've attended healing meetings, before, as well, and I've seen good, bad, and ugly. It really depends on who is ministering, and so forth. I would not say ALL is a farce.

You used to own two TV stations??? Really? Were these Christian stations, or secular???

[lablady2]

Yep, thanks, krems.

You see a lot in a hospital. I think it would be great if you could follow a hospital chaplain around for a couple of weeks. Sickness, healing, faith, families...it's all so much more human and complex on a daily basis. I've seen tremendous acts of faith but they didn't necessarily involve a physical healing; I've seen some holy stuff that could change your life around dying patients.

[miltietoast]

krems- secular baby --Jerry Springer,Rush Limbaugh,charlatan preachers,wrestling
channel 28 in Nashville,Tn and WB channel 20 in Knoxville,Tn
Even got approached by Mafia to run horse races and let people call Vegas and place bets---told my partner we woild make a lot of money and end up dead in some ditch

[mcmstaff78]

Jonathan, I'll be happy to go through each scripture you wish to present. Please, just list the scriptures, no interpretation. Then we can examine each one in context to see what it is really teaching.

Isaiah 53 is not about physical healing, it is about spiritual healing, healing of the soul, healing the individual from the sickness of sin. Sometimes God's will might entail this including physical healing, but obviously not always.

You know, though, regardless of what your theology is, the fact that it really doesn't work makes it moot whether it is legitimately scriptural or not. I've present a dozen examples where people who were pillars of the "faith" community did not receive miraculous, physical healing. Even if true, know one can know when it will work and when it will not. That's like having a bank account where you have the account number, you have authorization, but most of the time you can't get any money out of the bank even though there's plenty in it. This really makes the whole process capricious.

So, you go ahead and keep believing - except you have no guarantee that it's going to work for you even when you work everything right just like Hobart Freeman and his followers.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Krems: I think it is important for the person believing for their healing to pray and ask God for their healing, and then as a part of that, maybe, depending on the situation, ask God how they should be healed. In other words, if the diagnosis is cancer, pray, "God, what kind of treatment should we be seeking?" <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Does it not strike anyone else that this basically undercuts the whole point of "believing" for one's healing? Actually, this is an approach that Fred Price and Kenneth Hagin (to name two) would say demonstrates a lack of faith. But even if it doesn't, how does this make one different from those who pray for healing and add "if it be Thy will", believing that it is not always God's will to physically heal someone? In the final analysis, not one whit of difference.

My parish prayed for a little girl with Stage 4 cancer. Doctor's held out little hope at the beginning of her treatment. But we prayed weekly, daily even, and *always* humbling submitting ourselves to the will of God, "Father, if it be Thy will..." Her parents had her go through the whole regimen of treatments also. Today, she is in remission.

Jonathan starts out with an unequivocal "divine healing is the right of every Christian, provided in the Atonement". Yet, now we see the standard WoF backpeddling (just like with the prophetic - you can never be sure any "prophetic word" is from God based on the track record that even Jonathan admitted) - and the equivocation starts regarding just what constitutes "believing" God, what it is we're to believe God for, and how God answers those prayers.

How can anyone take any of this seriously? The sad thing is so many do.

[miltietoast]

do you have health insurance, life insurance,homeinsrance,auto insurance?
mcm and lab you have got it by the tail now drag the whole body!

[miltietoast]

you know confession insurance
Bet you some of my rollong rocks dilly stole that Copeland has only the best health insurance money can buy. Probably paid for by a member so he can say he does not buy it--another example Clinton Christianity

[jbkrems]

Lablady: I really do not have time for that right now, since I am working on finding a job. Although on occasion my pastor does go on hospital visits, but it is usually when I am busy. Normally he goes alone, or takes his son J.J. with him.

Miltie: I have health insurance through my parents, and I do not own a home (I rent). My car insurance is through Mom and Dad, also.

mcmstaff: I am going to list those Scriptures later this evening. However, I want to ask you a few questions first.

Do you like what you have? Are you satisfied with your current faith? Does your current faith situation work for you???

Another question I have for you is if I believe in this concept that healing is in the atonement, and I believe it works for me, and my needs (when I get sick, I believe for my healing, and I get better and healed, personally), then why should I take you up on your position that it DOES not work???

The reason I ask these questions, mcmstaff, is because you keep insisting that my ideas and so forth do NOT work... and I do not want to "cast my pearls before swine," throw out a bunch of Scripture verses for you, and WASTE MY TIME in a discussion that is fruitless, because you are not open to an honest discussion of the Word of God.

The Word of God is precious, and I do not want to debate it with someone who is not open to changing their mind about it.

So, please, consider those questions above, and I will prepare a list of Scriptures to present concerning physical healing of sickness, disease, and infirmity.

[lablady2]

Now, krems, don't take this the wrong way; this is a legitimate question. Why do you have to "work on finding a job"? One only has to believe for a healing, true? I assume you are trusting God for a job. Do you mean sending out resumes? That I can understand.

[flo1151]

Note to krems mom and dad,

Time to cut the little krems loose.

[jbkrems]

Lablady:

Yes, I mean sending out resumes, doing follow-up, etc.

Also, faith is demonstrated by a corresponding action, "Faith without works is dead." We have to do our part, so that God can do His part. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[lablady2]

Finally, mr. krems, you and I agree. Faith without works is very much dead.

[jbkrems]

Good. Now maybe you can work that "magic" on some of your other friends who should agree with me, too. LOL. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I am in a really weird and humorous mood tonight.

[miltietoast]

krems try law offices looking for people to do title searches
krems your insurance with your parents ends when you graduate and/or get a job.If something happens to you will have to trust God or pay with cash
you probably have to legally carry auto ins. How about renters insurance if your place burns or you are robbed?

[flo1151]

Maybe you ought to get a job and quit mooching off your parents. Spend a little less time on factnet, I'm sure we can make do without you.

[matt_hatter]

krems you are 25 years old. Maybe start working on that car insurance and health insurance thing and exercising some of that faith so mamma and daddy can go to the Bahamas.

Less time on factnet, more time on job hunting.
The motto in my business:
"Your full time job is finding a job."

[lablady2]

krems: if you are in a humerous mood, that is indeed weird. I, for one, am going to just sit back and enjoy it. Haven't really seen it yet, but I'm waiting....

About the car insurance: my kids had to pay their own car insurance from the day they started driving. Part of the deal. No money for car insurance, the car is parked. They all had jobs from the age of 16 on. Looks like you've had a nice ride. You really should start paying your own bills. And, once you start making some good money, do something really nice for your mom and dad.

[jbkrems]

Miltie: I'm not chatting with you anymore.

Flo: As soon as I get a job, both my parents and I will be VERY happy to let me be on my own, for good.

Matt: Mom and Dad are in California this week on vacation. They need it (they lived rather stressed lives between me, my brother, their jobs, etc.) I spend a lot of time finding that job. I send out resumes every week, etc.

Lablady: You should read my most recent posts against Miltie in Jesus Camp thread. I commanded him to shut up http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif .

My car is owned by my Dad. It is in his name. Until the car's title is transferred, I'm not responsible for paying insurance on it, although that will probably change when I renew my plates in Februrary (if not, it will change beforehand). I do pay for gas, though.

I've had jobs before, during summers and the like. But now I need to find a REAL attorney job. I'm believing God is going to provide one, and its coming VERY VERY soon.

I pay a lot of my own bills, although my parents help, and I actually OWE THEM money. I was going to take out a loan for school, but they insisted I loan from them instead. I am blessed to have really nice (most of the time) parents.

And I will do something VERY nice for them, in all likelihood, including paying back all the debt (its like $15,000 to $20,000; I don't know the exact figure, but my Dad keeps tabs).

[lablady2]

Lablady: You should read my most recent posts against Miltie in Jesus Camp thread. I commanded him to shut up.

I saw that, krems. Feeling your oats, are ya? Kinda playing fast and loose with Jesus' name, don't you think? If I were there with you, I would take your vital signs. Kind of out of character for you.

Okay, you're off the hook about your parents as long as you really do pay them back.

[jbkrems]

Lablady:

I'm just in a funny mood, and being sarcastic. Miltie is being a jerk in those threads, so I thought I'd toss a little back. That's all. I probably should not be acting like that, but I've had a LONG day, and I've had it with him and Flo, too, now.

I do believe in paying my parents back. I really do not like being indebted to them. But they are very generous and helpful, and they probably could better limit my liability (to them) than a bank. That is, they control the debt amount, by restricting the money they give me. And we have agreed to a mutual cut-off time, too, which is the end of November of this year. Since by then I should have a job. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[mil_gram]

Krems: I’m curious about your thoughts on this. Is God ever the author of any of our misfortune?

[jbkrems]

Mil-gram:

No, but I do not believe in the concept of "misfortune," or "bad luck" or the like.

Does that answer your question?

[miltietoast]

Mil-gram: ??is that a email to milty?
When was the last time I was called a jerk?Daily
krems go for title searches- you are a natural
You could buy some life insuance and make your parents the beneficiaries then if you have the misfortune or bad luck to die your bills would be paid.
krems said--Miltie: I'm not chatting with you anymore
now look what I have gone and done

[wildwood_]

Hi All! And MCMSTAFF78: I’m hoping that somehow, long ago in Kentucky that I bought a book from you and at least smiled &amp; made direct eye contact for a moment and said a “Thank You” in person…because you most surely know my Lord Jesus and blessed my heart abundantly with your earlier words <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Salvation, healing, wholeness is not a thing that God gives - it is God Himself. God gives us Himself!! And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (1Jo 5:11-12) This is, as the Apostle Paul writes, the mystery of the ages, Christ in you, the hope of glory. When one seeks after things, after blessings, after promises, one is missing the point, and missing Christ. He who hath not the Son of God hath not life.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
To me the Real Gift has always been just simply the “Giver”: Jesus, God’s Love. Why was Jesus sent by God to be the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins? Jesus says I came that they may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance (to the full, till it overflows). “Healing” and “Wholeness” in the “atoning sacrifice” of the Beloved, to my understanding (admittedly limited)restores us from our spiritual death to walk “Abundantly ALIVE” with the Father &amp; Son &amp; Holy Spirit for Now and all eternity. I do believe that miracles, signs, and wonders of the Holy Spirit still move across this world, but to focus on them, not only leaves men still bruised and broken but also robs God of the true Glory for the restoration &amp; “Healing” of His Creation by Christ’s blood: Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgression, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. It is like holding up a 40-watt bulb and saying “this is light that God gives you to “see”; but remember to turn your Faith “On” or it won’t work …hmmm, Given the blackness of this world, I’d rather have the bright daylight of the SUN than one little bulb correctly turned on up by the podium in a semi-dark church auditorium. Ideally, a Church (The Believers)should stand in the brightness of Jesus and if a little 40-watt bulb was shining, then it would be so humbled that it might just keep its appropriate place as a Gift of Blessing and not as a little light in a Miracle Vending Machine that requires only correct change Faith…and Faith Dollars folded incorrectly will be rejected. See how silly that sounds.

God does not tease His children; He loves us. God’s promise rests on His Character, His Faithfulness, His Blood, His Love… No mysterious “Off” or “On” toggle switch of believing enough or praying enough or fasting diligently enough or standing on the promises enough...we simply could never “be enough”… He IS. Why do some receive a miraculous instantaneous healing and others do not…I don’t know. How many miraculous instantaneous interventions of the Lord have protected me as I’ve walked through life…I don’t know that either. I do know that I am joyously “Healed” even if I’m hit by a bus tomorrow and have to hobble around on crutches for a while… (I’d rather avoid the bus and I don’t always “feel” that healthy…grumble, grumble…sometimes my attitude is not at all like Christ’s…that’s where daily His Grace &amp; Mercy covers a multitude of my sins).

I have two scripture passages to post for review… They would not fit in one post and I think reading them in a fuller context would be of benefit to the discussion. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[wildwood_]

John 9: (ESV Bible Online)
He saw a man blind from birth. his disciples asked “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” he spat on the ground and made mud with the saliva. Then he anointed the man's eyes with the mud and said “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” So he went washed and came back seeing.

8... “Is this not the man who used to sit and beg?” Some said, “It is he.” Others said, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am the man.” So they said to him, “Then how were your eyes opened?” He answered, “The man called Jesus made mud anointed my eyes and said ‘Go to Siloam and wash.’ So I went washed &amp; received my sight.” They said, “Where is he?” He said, “I do not know.”

They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind. it was a Sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes. So the Pharisees again asked him how he had received his sight. he said to them, “He put mud on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.” Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” there was a division among them. So they said again to the blind man, “What do you say about him, since he has opened your eyes?” He said, “He is a prophet.”

The Jews did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight, until they called his parents and asked them, “Is this your son, born blind? How then does he now see?” They said, “We know that this is our son and that he was born blind. But how he now sees we do not know, nor do we know who opened his eyes. Ask him; he is of age. He will speak for himself.” (His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone should confess Jesus to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.) Therefore his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”

24 a second time they called the man who had been blind and said, “Give glory to God. We know that this man is a sinner.” He answered, “Whether he is a sinner I do not know. One thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.” They said , “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?” He answered them, “I have told you already, and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become his disciples?” And they reviled him, saying, “You are his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses. We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where he comes from.” The man answered, “Why, this is an amazing thing! You do not know where he comes from, and yet he opened my eyes. We know God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. Never since the world began has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a man born blind. If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.” They answered him, “You were born in utter sin, and would you teach us?” they cast him out.

35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?” Jesus said , “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.” He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.” Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, said , “Are we also blind?” Jesus said “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

[wildwood_]

1 John 4 (Amplified Bible) speaks eloquently of what our “Perfect Health” in Jesus Christ as the propitiation for our sins…should look like
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is (springs) from God; and he who loves [his fellowmen] is begotten (born) of God and is coming [progressively] to know and understand God [to perceive and recognize and get a better and clearer knowledge of Him].
8He who does not love has not become acquainted with God [does not and never did know Him], for God is love.
9In this the love of God was made manifest (displayed) where we are concerned: in that God sent His Son, the only begotten or [f]unique [Son], into the world so that we might live through Him.
10In this is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins.
11Beloved, if God loved us so [very much], we also ought to love one another.
12No man has at any time [yet] seen God. But if we love one another, God abides (lives and remains) in us and His love (that love which is essentially His) is brought to completion (to its full maturity, runs its full course, is perfected) in us!
13By this we come to know (perceive, recognize, and understand) that we abide (live and remain) in Him and He in us: because He has given (imparted) to us of His [Holy] Spirit.
14And [besides] we ourselves have seen (have deliberately and steadfastly contemplated) and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son [as the] Savior of the world.
15Anyone who confesses (acknowledges, owns) that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides (lives, makes His home) in him and he [abides, lives, makes his home] in God.
16And we know (understand, recognize, are conscious of, by observation and by experience) and believe (adhere to and put faith in and rely on) the love God cherishes for us. God is love, and he who dwells and continues in love dwells and continues in God, and God dwells and continues in him.
17In this [union and communion with Him] love is brought to completion and attains perfection with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment [with assurance and boldness to face Him], because as He is, so are we in this world.
18There is no fear in love [dread does not exist], but full-grown (complete, perfect) love [g]turns fear out of doors and expels every trace of terror! For fear [h]brings with it the thought of punishment, and [so] he who is afraid has not reached the full maturity of love [is not yet grown into love's complete perfection].
19We love Him, because He first loved us. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

[flo1151]

kremsa

I will not be talking to you until you have your own job, paying your own bills etc. I didn't realize you were still a boy. I will talk to you when you are a man.

[mdillon]

hey krems, flo is an avid fisherman and can make his way around the deep. No worries, he just unhooked you and tossed you back in until you grow a little bigger, that's all. Now go fetch your big brother.

[40days40years]

Krems, keep on posting. I am not WOF but Jesus did talk about speaking to mountains to be cast into the sea and when you pray believe you have received.

[flo1151]

I believe in filet and release.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Krems: mcmstaff: I am going to list those Scriptures later this evening. However, I want to ask you a few questions first.

Do you like what you have? Are you satisfied with your current faith? Does your current faith situation work for you???<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I believe I have never been closer to God in my life. I am a miserable sinner, but God has drawn me to Him and to His Church and I see His glory and am awed by His presence as never before. Satisfied? Hardly. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phi 3:13-14)

And I'm not sure what you mean by asking if my "faith situation works for me". I am serving God and what He does in my life I accept with gratitude.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Another question I have for you is if I believe in this concept that healing is in the atonement, and I believe it works for me, and my needs (when I get sick, I believe for my healing, and I get better and healed, personally), then why should I take you up on your position that it DOES not work???<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

And I don't believe healing is "in the atonement" and when I get sick, I get better. You're certainly free to believe whatever you like, but don't engage in the spiritually abusive practice of chastising people who don't believe the way you do. Your theology, as has been demonstrated, blames the victim. No matter how many caveats and disclaimers you make, it is implicit that when one isn't healed, one didn't have enough faith or didn't work it right.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

The reason I ask these questions, mcmstaff, is because you keep insisting that my ideas and so forth do NOT work... and I do not want to "cast my pearls before swine," throw out a bunch of Scripture verses for you, and WASTE MY TIME in a discussion that is fruitless, because you are not open to an honest discussion of the Word of God.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Well, here is something we agree upon. I have had much the same internal debate. Why should I spend the time discussing with a person half my age (and with less experience then I had at the same age) and experience or apparently knows everything and is unwilling to admit he's wrong? Well, do what you believe you must as I will do. I will tell you again that I've already been where you are and there's no chance I will go back. It's a dead end and a deception, as I pray you will find out one day. If that helps you make your decision...

[miltietoast]

---Krems, keep on posting. I am not WOF but Jesus did talk about speaking to mountains to be cast into the sea and when you pray believe you have received.-----
Jesus cast's mountains and tells us to cast our cares----I like to cast #10 pink nighties(nightcrawlers for krems) and listen to the little fellars scream caaassssttt!
when I was a child I spoke as a child and mooched off my parents

[miltietoast]

krems ,the title search room in the courthouse is the room where everyone has a pile of deed and parcel books and no one talks.

you could work for lawyer who does default judgements-that is where your advisary does not show up for his court date and you win by default

[miltietoast]

krems ,the title search room in the courthouse is the room where everyone has a pile of deed and parcel books and no one talks.

you could work for lawyer who does default judgements-that is where your advisary does not show up for his court date and you win by default

[miltietoast]

cast, I double casted

[miltietoast]

cast, I double casted

[40days40years]

Well we allllll mooooch offfff JESUS!

[wisedove]

Wildwood-
beautiful series of posts in the wee hours of the night. Thanks. I love the scriptures, and also your thoughts. Right this minute and for the past 2 days, I have been praying for a miracle in my husband's back. Through it out on his trip. Has 3 days left on the trip. If the pain does not go away, 5 of the 8 days of his relaxing, get away for fishing and relaxation trip will be spent laid up in bed, or on the floor. I saw this as an attack, and have been praying for it to go-I have been spending a lot of time here on this board discussing healing, etc. and now I am facing a call to stand against this back thing for my husband, so he can enjoy the couple of days left of his fishing trip.

I must say, whether he is instantly healed of the pain or not, God remains on the throne, and it is NOT because of our lack of faith. I am still believing for a good report.

Now, I feel like throwing my computer out of my window. It is giving me problems. It seems to truly have a mind of its own lately.

[miltietoast]

the beauty of the default judgement is you just read your case(someone else could prepare it for you) and you don't have to argue your case with anyone.You win just for showing up.You would be really good at that. Fitness centers sue a lot of people for not honoring their lifetime dues commitment

[miltietoast]

the beauty of the default judgement is you just read your case(someone else could prepare it for you) and you don't have to argue your case with anyone.You win just for showing up.You would be really good at that. Fitness centers sue a lot of people for not honoring their lifetime dues commitment

[40days40years]

You know Miltie if after you double casted?, if you would just click on the <font color="ff0000">red</font> X you could delete one of those double casts and save factnet money if you can get to them within 30 minutes after posting. Are you sure your favorite is not one of those drunken pumpkins?

[mcmstaff78]

Okay guys, this is a serious thread not one of those bunny trails. I command you in the...Oh, who am I kidding. The inmates run the asylum here!!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[40days40years]

You guys are so unfair I forgot what cast meant in secret MCM/factnet code. Now I look like I am a reprobate. Cast meant cast like in pick up and throw in post 1217. It's not funny!

(Message edited by 40days40years on October 16, 2006)

[40days40years]

Miltie you are so bad!!!

[miltietoast]

thank you

[matt_hatter]

Miltie, it must be raining in TN. Shut up and go to work anyway. Allie is gonna call Rae tonight.

[jbkrems]

mcmstaff: I'm still compiling those Scriptures for you, but I wanted to respond to you regarding some of the answers you gave to my questions.

First, if you're a "miserable sinner," would you like to be relieved from your state of misery? And if the answer is yes, do you think God WILL do that for you, if you ask him to???

Second, would you like to receive true satisfaction from the Lord, since you are not satisfied???

Third, if you believe that I should not coerce you into believing "healing is in the atonement," because YOU do not believe that way, do YOU believe YOU should NOT coerce me into believing that healing is NOT in the atonement???

This last question, mcmstaff, is trying to determine whether you are using a double standard. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[mcmstaff78]

Jonathan, you simply don't understand a word I write, do you?

Please, don't presume to try to convert me. You are a heretic, plain and simple and, as I've said before, I want nothing that you're trying to sell. We are *all* miserable sinners (yep, you included). But being "miserable sinner" is not the same as being "in misery".

Second, if you are "satisfied", then you have achieved more than St. Paul did. Did you not understand the scripture I posted?

Third, I'll be happy to quit dealing with you on the issue of healing, or any other, if you'll quit asserting it as something everyone should act upon rather as simply something you personally believe. I'm curious, though, where did I use the word "coerce" or even imply such? I simply said that I've walked in your shoes, but you've never walked in mine. I've been along the path you're on and have no intention of going back. You do with that what you will.

[matt_hatter]

78, Krem's last post is why I think J2 is correct. Continued discussion with krems is pointless. Many accusations have been made about the state of these threads, however, things started degenerating when he showed up, in my opinion. He has no history here, has just added nothing but trouble. Further discourse with him is pointless, and I would encourage all to quit feeding him.

Go get that job that is waiting on you young man, put your faith in action, quit living off mamma and daddy and redirect your eneregies. Until then, you have very little credibility to be "speaking into anyone's life" until you learn to pay your own way. Can't you even see how much time you have wasted in here?

I know I have started to realize that about myself.

[j2theperson]

MCM, I understand your desire to respond to the heretical beliefs Krems is promoting. You and other people here have done an admirable job already punching holes through his belief system. At this point, instead of responding with fresh writing to his old and hackneyed assertions, why don't you simply respond by posting links to some of the previous debates that covered the same issues he wants to argue about all over again?

Here he talks about WOF beliefs. (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/22984.html?1155528402#POST323378)
Here he argues about the sin nature of Christians. (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/20032.html?1149767513#POST293953)
Here he debates about the gift of tongues. (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/13044.html?1153728458#POST319587)
Here he responds to Philip's assertion that Triumphalism blinds Christians to reality. (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/22845.html?1154295378)
Here he argues about tithing. (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21985.html?1152635849)

And, of course, this current thread and the Jesus Camp thread (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/24364.html?1161005038) are also relevent threads.

Instead of responding to his inanities afresh, just post a message saying something like "Note to all: Jbkrems is an internet troll who spouts heresies. We have already argued with him ad nauseam about his WOF beliefs here here and here" and then provide the links. That way, you're effectively responding to the heretical ideas without actually feeding the internet troll.

[mil_gram]

Sorry if I’m harshing the office mellow by following up on my earlier post. I’m not able to post as much as I like, and I would have done so earlier if I could have. So this is arriving a bit late, and perhaps it is outside the purview of the new paradigm as outlined by j2theperson.

First, JBK, the name’s Mil Gram. You can call me Mil.

JBK:

I apologize if my earlier question (Post 5) was misleading. By “misfortune,” I certainly don’t mean “bad luck.” I’m referring instead to catastrophe, or calamity, or affliction, or the like.

So instead, I might ask, “Is God ever the author of any of our affliction?”

I ask because I have a limited understanding of the WOF movement, and while I am unfamiliar with their theology in this area, it seems to me that they have no adequate explanation for many of the catastrophes that befall a person over the course of his life. (But perhaps I’m just ignorant of it.) So I’m curious.

Do you have any thoughts on the WOF perspective or simply your own perspective on this?

Thanks for any info you can provide.

Mil

[nicknak]

j2 - Brilliant!!!

[jbkrems]

mcmstaff: Given your most recent response, I am not going to post that list of Scriptures. I think you would just disregard all of them, as you are closed-minded in this area, so I won't waste my time.

I do wish to respond to your latest post, though. First, I am not a heretic, and that is a rather strong label to use against me. Are you sure you wish to call me that kind of label?

I reject and do not receive your comment about every Christian being a "miserable sinner." I am no longer a sinner, but I WAS a sinner, before I was saved. Now that I am saved, I am a saint and a holy one made perfect in Christ. I was a sinner, and I was saved by grace, but I am not a "sinner" any longer.

Paul was content in his faith, as am I, and as you should be as well. I hope you are content. If you are not content, then I think there is a problem with that, in your spiritual life, but I will leave that between you and God. Its not my place to deal with that issue in your life.

Finally, mcmstaff, I am very zealous about my faith and what I believe. I think the issue of healing is very important to what one believes about God and His Word (the Scriptures). Clearly, you and I disagree in this area. But I will not just stop asserting anything I believe. If you disagree, fine, I hope we can agree to disagree. However, if you impose this condition that I have to stop asserting what I believe is the truth, I am unable to comply with that.

As regards to using the word "coerce," you seem to think that I am trying to make everyone else agree with my beliefs. I call it persuasion, but to you I am trying to force my beliefs on others. At least you imply that I am trying to force my beliefs on the others here on the Boards. That is why I used the word "coerce," maybe it was a bit strong, but that's what you imply.

Mil: No, God is never the author of affliction, calamity, etc. Affliction and calamity is both the work of the devil.

I believe (and I think most WOF people agree) that God desires to deliver His people from their afflictions, and along with their sins, and that there is ample Scripture to prove this.

Does this answer your question, or do you need more information?

[40days40years]

Hey krems bud, mcmstaff does have a point about you not walking in his shoes. Krems brush off that old pair of Keds, youll need em because you will be carrying very heavy pictures and icons gilded in gold and silver all over the place. Don't forget the polish Krems because those icons that are not worshiped can get mighty dirty by people kissing them. No that is not idolatry at all Krems. It's just Holy ritual. O.K Krems get the Keds, get the polish its all good, your employed in Faith Law Firm. Carry that stuff around long enough you can earn salvation. Krems do not disapoint me in your response.

[40days40years]

krems and J-2 in Holy matrimony? This is a cult board, come on guys let me arrange this one. You had all the fun even through the Nineties. There are rumors of it continuing past that. I want in on the action. I want to be a match maker. Look Krems drops the points I am trying to feed him quite often, J-2 only occasionly she is smarter for sure. J-2 will you take this krems to be your.......? Come on I need to do this to ascend into MCM/MSI/EN leadership.

[40days40years]

mcmstaff I apologize for my hyper sarcasm but how can you reconcile your beliefs with the hyper idolatry going on with icons and such? The bible is against idolatry and the Orthodox institutionalized it and made it an art form. No offense but the old ladies and men in eastern europe are worshiping relics, kissing them, fondling them. Mighty Orthodox Christians out there? for sure but how do you reconcile the idolatry. Somehow you had to compromise. Could you approach the leadership in that church and tell them to stop? Would you want to? if not, why not. God Bless.

[mil_gram]

JBK: Yes, that answers my question. Thanks. But it does bring up another one.

You said, “No, God is never the author of affliction, calamity, etc. Affliction and calamity is both the work of the devil.”

So how do you explain scriptures such as Ecclesiastes 7:14: In the day of prosperity be joyful, and in the day of adversity consider: God has made the one as well as the other, so that man may not find out anything that will be after him.

Or

Isaiah 45:7: I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Thanks for any insight you can provide.

Mil

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

J2: "Note to all: Jbkrems is an internet troll who spouts heresies. We have already argued with him ad nauseam about his WOF beliefs here here and here" and then provide the links.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> To reiterate Nick's comment (Hear voice of Guinness guyhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Brilliant!

[mcmstaff78]

After this I believe I will try using J2's tactic. But I'm a glutton for punishment, so who knows?

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Krems: Given your most recent response, I am not going to post that list of Scriptures. I think you would just disregard all of them, as you are closed-minded in this area, so I won't waste my time.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Well, this would certainly work both ways. Please note that I have never "disregarded" any of the scriptures, I have simply refuted the interpretation from your WoF tradition. "Close minded"? Well, how about "experienced"? You see, if I've been to a garbage dump and know I can't get groceries there, why would I listen to someone trying to give me directions to the dump when I want to go to a grocery store? But I didn't really expect you list the scriptures because I because I really do think you're more interesting in converting then dialoguing. The truth is, you are the one who is not open-minded about your interpretation of scriptures. You simply don't have the experience to see beyond the little world-view created for you by WoF and the church circles in which you run around. I know, I was there. I use to think I feasted at the dump. May God have mercy on me and forgive me for ever having taught this stuff. I pray those who sat under my teaching were wise enough to shake it off.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I do wish to respond to your latest post, though. First, I am not a heretic, and that is a rather strong label to use against me. Are you sure you wish to call me that kind of label?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> A heretic is one who teaches heresy. What is heresy? Heresy is that which deviates from the "faith which was once delivered unto the saints." (Jude 1:3) and "which has been believed everywhere, always, by all." (Vincent of Lerins, 434 AD) I also like was Easton's Bible Dictionary says regarding heresy: "From a Greek word signifying (1) a choice, (2) the opinion chosen, and (3) the sect holding the opinion. In the Acts of the Apostles (5:17; 15:5; 24:5, 14; 26:5) it denotes a sect, without reference to its character. Elsewhere, however, in the New Testament it has a different meaning attached to it. Paul ranks "heresies" with crimes and seditions (Gal. 5:20). This word also denotes divisions or schisms in the church (1 Cor. 11:19). In Titus 3:10 a "heretical person" is one who follows his own self-willed "questions," and who is to be avoided. Heresies thus came to signify self-chosen doctrines not emanating from God (2 Pet. 2:1)." So, yeah, I'm sure that's the word I wish to use. And, I believe, I've expressed that several times before. It may seem harsh, but sometimes harsh words are needed to wake someone up. John the Baptist called the scribes and Pharisees a "brood of vipers". Our Lord called them "whitewashed sepulchres" and "hypocrites" and "sons of the devil".

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I reject and do not receive your comment about every Christian being a "miserable sinner." I am no longer a sinner, but I WAS a sinner, before I was saved. Now that I am saved, I am a saint and a holy one made perfect in Christ. I was a sinner, and I was saved by grace, but I am not a "sinner" any longer.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Did you sin yesterday? Have you ever sinned? Do you think you will sin tomorrow? Are you not now saved by grace, or was it only in the past? (You used the phrase "was saved by grace".) Well, no matter. Pride goeth before the fall.

Continued in the next post...

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Paul was content in his faith, as am I, and as you should be as well. I hope you are content. If you are not content, then I think there is a problem with that, in your spiritual life, but I will leave that between you and God. Its not my place to deal with that issue in your life.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Ever notice how you start out using one term and then switch to another? The original question asked if I was "satisfied" with my faith. I responded no and quoted Phil. 3:13-14, Hardly. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. "Content" is a whole different word with a different set of connotations.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Finally, mcmstaff, I am very zealous about my faith and what I believe. I think the issue of healing is very important to what one believes about God and His Word (the Scriptures). Clearly, you and I disagree in this area. But I will not just stop asserting anything I believe. If you disagree, fine, I hope we can agree to disagree. However, if you impose this condition that I have to stop asserting what I believe is the truth, I am unable to comply with that.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> I'm pretty sure people know what you believe by now Jonathan. It's the fact that you interject your beliefs as non-sequitors in various threads that have nothing to do with you or your beliefs. When you do that, it is encumbent on those who recognize the error and danger of the beliefs you espouse to present the correction.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

As regards to using the word "coerce," you seem to think that I am trying to make everyone else agree with my beliefs. I call it persuasion, but to you I am trying to force my beliefs on others. At least you imply that I am trying to force my beliefs on the others here on the Boards. That is why I used the word "coerce," maybe it was a bit strong, but that's what you imply.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> I believe you are presumptuous and that you are trying to convert people to your beliefs. However, "coercion" is not a word I've used (I mean it's the internet, people can easily not read your stuff) and seems to indicate an attempt to use emotionally charged words to influence the dialogue. Again, I didn't write that you "force" your beliefs on others, but that you interject them in conversations that have nothing to do with you or those beliefs and that you do so in what comes across as a condescending, pedantic, presumptuous fashion. It gets tiresome and is boorish.

[mcmstaff78]

40days, I'm not sure to what sarcasm you're referring (in an earlier post or in what follows? I guess I'm not seeing the sarcasm), but I haven't really wanted to use this forum to post on things that are uniquely Orthodox. I'd be happy to discuss this with you via email if you'd like (mcmstaff78-at-gmail.com you know what to do with the "at"). Suffice it to say that what there is no "hyper idolatry" regarding the veneration of icons. If you'd like to read an article regarding this from the perspective of another convert who was a Church of the Nazarene minister you can see here (http://www.orthodoxconvert.info/Q-A.php?c=Icons-Is%20Venerating%20Icons%20Idolatry).

Hope this helps.

[jbkrems]

40: If I didn't know your heart, I'd be done conversing with you. I'm not gonna respond to your 3 posts above at 5AM this morning.

Mil: Adversity is different from calamity, so I'll discuss that first. Adversity is not necessarily evil, and can be a good thing. It depends certainly on how you define it, and who you are. Adversity is NOT sickness, disease, infirmities, etc, and is NOT poverty. But, the Bible does say, "God resists the PROUD, but gives grace to the humble." That's God-created adversity.

Calamity, however, is different. God in history has created calamity --- look at how God treated Pharoah and the Egyptians who were blasphemous and rejected God and Moses. They were given curses and calamity.

Putting this together, God creates adversity and calamity, but He creates them to oppose those who oppose Him. That is, God does not create adversity and calamity for the Christian believer, but for His enemies.

Does that answer your question, or do you have more, Mil?

mcmstaff: Disregarding and refuting are pretty close, as "experience" has shown in the past. You make a "difference that doesn't matter," as someone previously astutely observed.

If you refuted my statement that you are closed-minded, and stated you were open to discussing those Scriptures, then I would have posted the list. But you decided to be "closed-minded," or at least say you are "experienced" enough that you would refute each one of those Scriptures (there would probably at least 10-15, maybe 20), and so I did not want to waste my time. I did not want to "cast my pearls before swine." Not that you are a pig, mcmstaff, but you definitely might resort to pig-like behavior with those Scriptures, and I don't want that, do you???

Regarding heresy, I onced asked a pastor (this was my pastor in St. Louis, not my current pastor) how he defined heresy. He said "Heresy is any doctrine that could shatter one's faith." I do not think anything I believe, including the concept of "healing in the atonement," can shatter one's faith. Also, several denominations that are NOT charismatic, and NOT WOF, accept healing is provided for in the atonement. E.g., A.B. Simpson taught this, and he was Missionary Alliance (CMA), not a charismatic denomination. I believe several Wesleyans accept this, as do the Nazarenes, and other Arminian groups that are NOT charismatic. Would you say these groups are heretical, since they reject other WOF/charismatic doctrines outside "healing is in the Atonement," or not???

About the "sinner" issue. Did I sin yesterday? I don't know, definitely not on purpose. Have I ever sinned? Yes, BEFORE I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior. Since then? Yes, but LESS and LESS. Do I think I WILL sin tomorrow? No, I actually do not think that. I purpose in my heart, with the power of the Holy Spirit, to NOT SIN. The point is I was a "sinner," as the Bible defines that term, and once I was regenerated, my classification before God has CHANGED, and I am a "new man." http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Regarding satisfaction, to me it and contentment are the same, and God provides both. If you are hungry for the Word, you can go to God and His Word, and be satisfied. If you are discontent, you can come to God in humility, and become content. Paul was BOTH satisfied and content, and ALL Christians can be as well.

Regarding your non-sequiturs, I'm not sure how to respond to that. I do not believe I do as you describe, and I'll leave it at that. Also, What is wrong with trying to persuade people, mcmstaff, or "convert" them, as you suggest??? I thought this was a free country.

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

40/40: krems and J-2 in Holy matrimony? This is a cult board, come on guys let me arrange this one. You had all the fun even through the Nineties. There are rumors of it continuing past that. I want in on the action. I want to be a match maker.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Well, I will give you this--that would be a sight. But, ya know, I'd want a man not a boy for a husband and I'd want someone who had a job in fact not simply in "faith".

40/40, do you moonlight as a horror writer? Because you're scaring the shht out of me. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[mcmstaff78]

Jbkrems is an internet troll who spouts heresies. We have already argued with him ad nauseam about his WOF beliefs and he continues to bring them up. You can read these exchanges both in this thread and the following:
Here he talks about WOF beliefs. (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/22984.html?1155528402#POST323378"%20target="_blank )
Here he argues about the sin nature of Christians. (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/20032.html?1149767513#POST293953"%20target="_blank )
Here he debates about the gift of tongues. (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/13044.html?1153728458#POST319587"%20target="_blank )
Here he argues about tithing. (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21985.html?1152635849"%20target="_blank)
Jesus Camp thread. (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/24364.html?1161005038"%20target="_blank)

Wow, that felt good!! Thanks J2, you are brilliant!

[sas1963]

Gosh I am kind of interested in this thread. Again - you guys seem kind of mean - but then I guess thats what guys do. I once visited a friends church that was part of a group of churches that I was told were connected to a place called reema - I don\\'t know if I am spelling that right. They told me that all suffering was from the devil. But it seems that - as another friend pointed out - suffering is part of the bible. I mean didnt all those people get killed in the early church? Also - this friend pointed out that Paul didn\\'t get free from sickness or whatever his affliction was. Can\\'t god do that I wonder? Anyway - as my dad told me when I asked him about this stuff \\"no one I know of dies healthy.\\"
Bye - Sas

[wildwood_]

Hi Sas1963...no meanness intended here. Follow the links and you'll see that sometimes there's a concern that the discussion is a continual circle and possibly baited...but I'll a little fish so I check out all the hooks. Ever see "Finding Nemo"???...sometimes I'm Doree...I'm ok with that and there's a real plus to swimming in a world of stinging jelly fish with a lot of loving Nemos. If you haven't seen the movie...never mind none of what I said will make a bit of sense... If you have...well, sometimes I think Jonathan might be the large Yellow bird on the telephone wire at the beginning of the movie...and we are the little blue birds...hmmm, he doesn't fit on the wire, makes it sag and then we all bump into each other...ruffling our feathers against each other &amp; we do mostly not like doing that...so pecking.... but perhaps an abrupt departure...would be shocking to us all. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif Using the short cuts to previously established discussions will at least allow new material to be covered...

However, I'd just typed a response to something in particular that I saw as "New" and as I started to post saw your comment...which actually possibly sums up everything that I took a long time to consider-pray-type. Naturally I'm still going to post it...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif Bless YOU...keep reading &amp; swimming here...these are great folks or fish or people if they prefer that term...

[wildwood_]

Jonathan you said <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Regarding heresy, I onced asked a pastor (this was my pastor in St. Louis, not my current pastor) how he defined heresy. He said "Heresy is any doctrine that could shatter one's faith."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

And that’s exactly what we've been trying to share with you that this particular doctrine has done. And it has happened thousands of times over with the concept or doctrine or teaching or heresy or whatever name it lurks under…. That with sufficient personal Faith then there will always be a divine miracle; absence of the divine miracle happening means a personal "faith" problem of some sort. Therefore at some point...must come the doubt.. the fear, the horrible thought that “I must not believe after all”…and “I must not have repented enough of evil”. And those companions who have shared this thinking, who have been constant brothers &amp; sisters in the Lord…whisper…”There must be a sin…” “There must be a lack of belief…how sad that our friend has failed God…we will pray for forgiveness for he must have fallen or he would be healed…”. So in the middle of the worst personal moment, the individual who most surely needs the sustaining arms of Jesus… cries alone “Father Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?” A man’s heart breaks, his faith is shattered and then…. He buys a gun and eventually finds his way into an Amish School….

And then we see overwhelming, grief and pain and by the incredible miracle of faith…We do see Jesus…. As those Amish parents do not say why has this come upon us, what sin or lack of belief have we shown that the Lord took our children so brutally from us…. No, they say… We Believe that our God loves us and that our prayers were heard from Forever and in this evil struggle that the Victory did belong to the Angels. And that Jesus’ willingness to die on the cross for us…His willingness to be “Forsaken”….has restored us to the Father and never ever will we be “Forsaken”. So in their Faith, they reach out their hand to a lady whose heart must surely be broken and crying “Lord, Where ARE YOU?” and to her children who have lost a father they loved…. And offered an arm of forgiveness &amp; protection around them and by the Grace of God…they walk towards healing… (this I pray).

Jonathan, I have seen and know lives broken and hearts shattered by this particular teaching of faith and positive confession and that type of standing on the promises of God…. I truly hope that your church family is as kind and gentle and uplifting as you say and as wise in the Lord… but they can be every bit of those things and the problem won’t come from them, but it will possibly be a thought or a whisper or a fear of your own one night… at some point… life will intrude… and if that does happen… it is no fault of yours or lack of faith or hidden sin or necessarily an attack from the Enemy (it could be…he does walk around as a roaring Lion and sometimes as annoying mosquito…if so swat him flat with the Word of God)… but David &amp; Jesus &amp; Moses and apparently everyone must go through the wilderness from time to time to get to the Promised Land. Remember that Jesus Loves You exactly now…He’s always loved you and NOTHING will ever separate you from the Love of God in Christ Jesus Our Lord…and “nothing” includes you…

I intend no offense; I offer my heart and tell you this… I have had doubts and fears and have seen many sad things in life and nothing gave me more pain than sitting with a group of smiling believers who said “We have the Faith to move mountains and claim the Victory of the cross and are healed”….and I knew I had no Joy in my heart and that all the positive confessions of my lips was not making it so… My heart was shattered for a while…but my Faith by the Grace of God still walks toward the Promised Land…

[sas1963]

Dear Wildwood,
I LOVE Finding Nemo! Doree rocks!! Thanks for your post - I will keep swimming here.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Sas

[j2theperson]

Welcome to the forum, Sas. I hope you find your time here interesting and enjoyable. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I also love Finding Nemo.

[jbkrems]

Sas: That is a new trend developed by j2 and mcmstaff, to ignore me like that.

mcmstaff: Alright, have it your way. No more conversation from me.

Wildwood: Thanks for engaging.

I think what my pastor was intended as faith-shattering doctrine was doctrines like "Jesus never died on the cross," "Jesus never rose again," "The blood was insufficient for our sins," and the like. By faith-shattering, doctrines that go against the key doctrines of the Christian faith, as I just illustrated in those examples.

If people have been exposed and involved in WOF doctrines, and as a result their faith was shattered, that does not necessarily mean WOF doctrines ARE heretical. Because there are a lot of strong Christians, such as myself, who've been empowered by those very same doctrines. Heresy must cut across the board, and be faith-shattering to the majority of Christians, and not just a few group. You cannot determine heresy also by your own experience, or the experience of others.

However, I think you, Wildwood, misconstrue what the WOF movement teaches presently. You got the first part right, "that with sufficient personal faith then there will always be a divine miracle." But, this next statement: "absence the divine miracle happening means a personal "faith" problem of some sort." No, this latter sentence is not true, and its not what we preach. Actually, if we believed that last statement, "Without the divine mircacle there is a personal faith problem," then we would be basing THAT concept on one's experience, and not the Scriptures, and that's not right.

But that's also NOT taught in the WOF movement. Maybe its a matter of timing. The kind of thinking that you are discussing, Wildwood, assumes God produces instant results with our faith, and it just isn't so. There is ALWAYS a matter of timing involved for any divine miracle to manifest, and so you must KEEP BELIEVING until the manifestation happens, and not give up!

Wildwood, I need to respond to your penultimate paragraph. You blame for the faith-shattering "a thought or a whisper or a fear of your own one night." If such is the case, Wildwood, then it IS MY FAULT, because I have not guarded my heart and "taken every thought captive," as the Scriptures exhort us to do, and therefore I am to blame, and not WOF doctrines.

Anyway, are there other questions? Or was that a fair response? Thanks.

[matt_hatter]

sas, welcome. Please don't read meaness into my posts. I just think krems has stirred up enough for a lifetime and folks are starting to realize it, and he is on his last gasp.

You are welcome on any thread!

[mcmstaff78]

Jbkrems is a proponent of a heretical belief system and spouts heresies. He follows his pastor's interpretations rather than the historic teachings of the Church and twists the scriptures or ignores those that don't fit into the WoF box. We have already argued with him ad nauseam about his WOF beliefs and he continues to bring them up. You can read these exchanges both in this thread and those listed in my post above.

[dust]

Here is a question: Does anyone believe in healing, the gift of healing, praying for healing?

Please, NOT FOR KREMS OR MCM because we've heard both of your beliefs, respecting both of you, okay.

[wildwood_]

Yes, I do. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif It's not the gift that I've ever doubted, but that it is necessary for an exercise of personal faith to recieve a gift of healing for example...which to my understanding would make it something we "purchase" or "earn" rather than a Gift of the Father to His Children for the Blessing of the Body and Ministering to the Saints... On a just what I believe level...I believe that all the Gifts of the Holy Spirit still operate within the world today; However, I believe that a reliance or perhaps focus on the "Gifts" instead of the "Giver" (Jesus) seems to create much chaos. Application of the "Gifts" or say "Prophecy" without the in-dwelling continually becoming character of Jesus as shown by the Fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and yields a poor harvest to feed hungry sheep and a starving world. To me, Jesus warns of those false prophets &amp; teachers who come doing signs &amp; wonders in His name and He does not know them... So, to me...a healthy, healed, Christian... looks like Jesus...as in 1 John 4 <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

16And we know (understand, recognize, are conscious of, by observation and by experience) and believe (adhere to and put faith in and rely on) the love God cherishes for us. God is love, and he who dwells and continues in love dwells and continues in God, and God dwells and continues in him.
17In this [union and communion with Him] love is brought to completion and attains perfection with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment [with assurance and boldness to face Him], because as He is, so are we in this world.
18There is no fear in love [dread does not exist], but full-grown (complete, perfect) love [g]turns fear out of doors and expels every trace of terror! For fear [h]brings with it the thought of punishment, and [so] he who is afraid has not reached the full maturity of love [is not yet grown into love's complete perfection].
19We love Him, because He first loved us. Amplified Bible<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

That's my understanding at the moment...I have noticed my understanding has changed over the years about many things...but never about the Love of God in Christ Jesus. And have been in one solid Church in Hawaii that seemed to walk out the character of Christ and apply the gifts to minister to the Body...without ever losing sight of their First Love... I truly would like to see more...

[jbkrems]

Wildwood:

Let me clarify a few things. First, "gifts of healing" are a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, and go to the person ministering healing to the recipient. So, for instance, Benny Hinn, Reinhard Bonneke, and Rodney Howard-Browne all minister and operate in "gifts of healing."

Second, the fact that exercising one's faith is a requirement to receive something from God does not mean that it must be "purchased" or "earned." The Bible is very clear that you must exercise your faith in order to receive salvation, which Jesus has already made available to you through the shedding of His blood on the cross (which is the atonement), and healing is provided for in the same respect as that. Both healing AND salvation are provided for in the atonement.

What other questions or response would you like?

[wildwood_]

Well, Jonathan, for the moment that pretty well covers it for me...I think we will just have to agree on our disagreement about how healing &amp; salvation are applied in the atonement. I typed the longer passages above because that was the measure of the wisdom I had to offer you...I understand that it's not what you hear. But I needed to make sure I said it to you because maybe twenty years from now or maybe tomorrow the moment might come when perhaps those words might offer you a Blessing to Hope and not to dispair of Heart...and this difference will no longer be a point of doctrine discourse between two believers but a bond between friends. I hope to visit you at your Church one day and will continue to pray for you and that the Lord blesses your job search.... But, perhaps continued discussions on this issue are over for me at least for the moment... I wouldn't object to continuing but I honestly have nothing new to say...\clipart Perhaps someone else will have a new helpful poiont of view.{happy}

[jbkrems]

Wildwood: Fine. Thanks for engaging while you did.

[jonmoseley]

Unfortunately, it is mcmstaff78 and others too numerous to name who are spreading heresies, not jbkrems.

And while Jbkrems is openly putting out what he believes, the others are also fraudulently trying to win the argument by BLUDGEONING people into accepting their interpretation. As with this entire discussion, THEIRS is the only right view of the Bible, and therefore EN is a cult, jbkrems is a heretic, etc., etc.

Do you see the abuse? The mind control? The cult-like qualities of mcmstaff78, wisedove, and miltietoast? Either you CONFORM (not just jbkrems but the entire planet) OR YOU MUST BE EXTERMINATED.

The critics on this board of EN / MSI / MCM are the greatest intellectual fascists I have ever encountered, far worse than any thing I experiencd in Maranatha, even in Bob Weiner's home church.

So Jbkrems agrees with TENS OF MILLIONS OF CHRISTIANS in America, but he disagrees with mcmstaff78, wisedove, and miltietoast so he is a heretic who must be stopped.

What name properly applies to you clowns? The only proper descriptions are those too harsh to mention here.

Jbkrems and all of the Word of Faith may have their system off-kilter, and may have a lot of improving to do in their theology AND YET THEY ARE 100 TIMES MORE RIGHT than those criticizing them here.

What is clear to me is that the critics of EN /MSI / MCM have made a very strong decision to have a FORM OF GODLINESS WHILE DENYING ITS POWER.

None of you believe in God's miracle power for today, do you?

FORGET about how it manifests, how to seek it, what balance it plays in one's life, for just a moment.

The bottom line is that you all are simply ANTI-CHARISMATIC, PERIOD. You oppose the entire doctrine that God has ANY real involvement in this present life.

Is that not correct, or am I misunderstanding you?

Is it not true that you are opponents of ALL charismatic gifts (meaning not the denominational name but the Greek word in the New Testament)?

You call EN a cult BECAUSE YOU OPPOSE *ALL* CHURCHES that believe in the power of the Holy Spirit for today: True or false?

I heard you mocking leg-growing "tricks." I watched a leg grow out in the World Congress on the Holy Spirit in New Orleans (unrelated to Maranatha).

You oppose the Latter Rain BECAUSE YOU REALLY NO LONGER BELIEVE IN GOD except as a theoretical, philosophical concept, not as a REAL God active in your lives. Correct? Why else do you talk about all of these events yet NEVER seem to think of actually TALKING TO GOD and RECEIVING guidance in any of the events that happened to you? (I do have to except, I think it was, Ginger from this who says God spoke to her to go into a Maranatha church in the Phillipines.)

[jbkrems]

jonmosely:

Hi, this is jbkrems here. I'm glad you posted what you did, so we could dialogue. I have read a few of your other posts elsewhere, and others responses, and I have a few questions I'd like to ask you.

First, are you currently a member of an EN church, and if so, which church???

If you do not currently go to an EN church, where do you attend church, if you don't mind me asking.

I do NOT go to an EN church (although my church is Word of Faith), and I go to Faith Church in Edmond, Oklahoma.

Now that the preliminaries are out of the way, I certainly would like to respond to some of your comments. Although I agree with much of what you say, I will be the last one to say that mcmstaff, wisedove, miltie, etc. have cult-like qualities. I think many of the people here are deceived, though, and that is why I respond to what they say.

I think I would also say that some here, e.g. mcmstaff and others, do have a form of godliness, while denying the power thereof, and that is deception, pure and simple.

Otherwise, I think some of your characterizations of the people here on the Boards, jonmosely, is fairly accurate.

If you would like to get to know me more, please e-mail me at jbkrems@excite.com

Thanks http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[wildwood_]

JonM you said <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Do you see the abuse? The mind control? The cult-like qualities of mcmstaff78, wisedove, and miltietoast? Either you CONFORM (not just jbkrems but the entire planet) OR YOU MUST BE EXTERMINATED.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

How truly sad for you to twist the open discussion between believers regarding some specific WOF Doctrines into a need to conform...
Emotionally, Spiritually Whole People are free to discuss and to debate the word of God as we seek out His Truth &amp; Righteousness together.

Your interpretations are becoming more clownish as you type; perhaps some sleep and then your thoughts will be coherent enough to return to this debate.

[jbkrems]

Wildwood:

I agree, JonM is twisting somewhat the open discussion here. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[jonmoseley]

Wildwood, I honestly do not believe you have READ the entire thread above. Over and over and over krems' position is being slammed as HERESY.

How do you propose to have an open discussion about Biblical theology with one side accusing the other of HERESY?

I think you are way off track on this one, as are the clownish critics.

If they want to explain their Biblical beliefs, that is great, as I have encouraged and asked for.

But in the thread above, they belittle someone for his age, for his job status, for where he lives, and repeateadly call him a heretic because he has different Biblical beliefs (as do tens of millions of CHristians) from the prima donnas attacking krems.

I honestly do not believe you have thoroughly read all of the posts above this point.

[jbkrems]

Jon:

Wildwood has read everything in this thread. You need to give Wildwood (and others) the benefit of the doubt, here.

However, I agree that when one side accusing the other of heresy is NOT an open discussion about Biblical theology. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[wildwood_]

This was not Krems first post on the subject; in fact, this would be more along the lines of his at least 10 full threads that I recall of the same material. The discussion was once again at his request and he's a talented defender of his point of view. I have agreed with him on other issues, but not on this particular one and he understood. So Krems &amp; I left our discussion as agreeing to disagree...with me truly worried for the moment when life intrudes in an instant that cannot be easily explained away by a lack of faith or sin...or some other event that shows the fallacy of the WOF doctrine of name it, claim it, believe it, it's yours.

And Krems had gone more than a few rounds with these same individuals over the same topic, relentlessly actually and a rather good character trait for his future career as an attorney. And in other side threads, rudeness towards Krems was addressed and presented as an unhealthy poor witness of Jesus so the hope for a more polite exchange was established for continued discussions. Those who were posting from a Christian viewpoint them became more respectful. Those who were posting from a debating standpoint also became more respectful. And Krems became less rude in some of his direct rebuttals. The are a variety of such discussions involving Krems and I'm sure he'd be most happy to explain them to you. I have read all the posts...but please remember this one thread only starts on the 14th, there are several others going even further back which have the same ongoing discussion. Hence...some did begin to become a bit peeved about the continual arguments over the same material that was not presenting new insight. Not much point in arguing just to be arguing, just causes discord and not growth. Most of the people here truly want to grow in Jesus...and to encourage Krems in his own growth in Christ. Like I mentioned before, this is a message board, so it is not a perfect world of perfect Believers--but most do love Jesus and do most earnestly strive to follow His Teachings and walk in the Fruit of the Spirit in Peace with each other.

[wildwood_]

Hi Krems! I'd say Jonathan, but at the moment it would be confusing and I am getting sleepy. Perhaps you will be able to clarify for him. Which I find a rather lovely ironic position for the Lord to use in at this moment...considering the worries that you yourself might be a trolling troll... But, I have always thought your heart held the Love of Jesus and was usually blessed in our stubborn-discussions! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Hope your family is doing fine and that your job hunt has been productive. I have been praying for you. Tonight was a rare night of my child going to bed &amp; staying put!!! LOL.

Jon, I hope you find the answers you seek. Most of these folks only seek to grow daily in wisdom of the Lord...they are not bitter. They want their voices heard and and honest dialog regarding their concerns; they want healing and to see Jesus Glorified. None of us are perfect so we've all made mistakes &amp; errors perhaps in some postings...that's why it is important to read as much of the full board as you can. Good Nite.

[dust]

Jon,
I cannot read ALL your postings...too much. but you asked a good question:
JON SAID: The bottom line is that you all are simply ANTI-CHARISMATIC, PERIOD. You oppose the entire doctrine that God has ANY real involvement in this present life.

Is that not correct, or am I misunderstanding you?

DUST: This is a good question. I think many people DO believe in the Gifts and are charismatic. Some have been hit on the head so many times with extremes, they have run the other way. That's understandable. I think the Krems/MCM debate was great because it made me personally ask myself where do I stand. I do believe in healing and in miracles, but I don't think less of someone who doesn't. God is working inside each one of us on this board.

I understand what you say...that perhaps when we talk about EN we should stick to the issues at hand. EN is not bad because they have prophecy or healing or are charismatic. You are correct that we should not name call (which you've done here) and the attacks on Krems or on anyone are simply wrong. STILL, it's okay...God is working this out also.

I TRUST God that He is here and even with all the mistakes we've made, God is here in our hearts. If you don't like what you see, then go back to EN...this is what happens when people are banged up in a church.....and begin to not trust everything..throwing even the good things out such as healing because of such bad experiences. Where is your love, your patience, your kindness? Where is your compassion?

[jbkrems]

testing...

[jbkrems]

testing...

[jbkrems]

Wildwood: I've had to restart my membership at Factnet, so my recent posts are low numbers, again. But it is I, and I am back...

My family is doing alright... parents have returned from a vacation in California, and my brother is busy with his work.

So far as my job hunt is going on, it is still a hunt... But it could change any day... On Sunday after church I received what I consider to be a prophetic word from one of the resident prophets at my church, the same one who prophecied to me that I would pass the Bar Exam (which I did), that I would be receiving my new job "soon... VERY soon...," and so I am standing on that word so I can be a blessing to my church and to others. I'm just so anxious to give in tithes and offerings off my first pay check, and to give God a tremendous thanksgiving offering for all he's done next month.

After what happened today, with my account having to be revived, I am not gonna post my e-mail anymore, but Dust has it if you need it. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[lablady2]

krems: A Mr. Jon Moseley, author and attorney, attended George Mason University. Coincidentally, you mentioned that this is the university you attended also (Bovine thread). Do you know a Mr. Moseley?

[wiseasaserpentgentleasadove]

lablady,
I believe mr. mosely is another person using that name as a decoy or something. things were tooo strange here this past weekend. I told Dust early on SAt. This guy might not be who he says he is...and we needed to watch him. Then, all kind of crazy things happened with our passwords.
coincidence? i think not.

[lablady2]

wise: An attorney named Jon Moseley who graduated from George Mason University in '96 wrote a novel titled "Cold Peace" about the Soviet Union. Interestingly, the guy who posts here as Jon Moseley talks about his trips into Russia.

I think someone has co-opted this author's identity as a cover on Factnet. Striking coincidence that this author and lawyer, Mr. Moseley, just happens to be a graduate of the same university mr. krems attended, is also a lawyer, and happens to post on Factnet.

Information for consideration, that's all.

[lablady2]

An additional note: A brief passage regarding the publication of Mr. Moseley's novel was printed in the George Mason University Alumni magazine (or at least the online addition) in or around 2003. Dates might be a little off, but this information can be found online.

[lablady2]

Mr. Moseley, whoever you are:

God knows there is no love lost for me on this board. However, I have to say that you've been rather harsh in your attacks on many people here.

You have done me a large favor, though. Just when I thought some of the weird religious stuff had surely peaked, you came in and trumped it all. It's a waste of my time.

Peace out.

[wiseasaserpentgentleasadove]

Lab,
I get what you are saying, but i don't think krems put whoever did this up to it.

I just don't. I might go as far as saying that perhaps b/c he is a lawyer, someone might have it out for him for whatever reason, and is using his name here to stir things up, why here, i don't understand that part, but these are only my feelings, and i felt immediately when i read Sat. night (playing catch-up-again) that this person might not be who he says he is.

He's gone all of a sudden. Oh, well, hey, the bright side of it all is that old and new are reconnecting here again. Perhaps this is a way to end a tiff (is that a word?) and peacefully carry on.

[jbkrems]

Lablady:

I have never met Jon Mosely, and your attempts to tie us together are divisive here on the Boards. I ask you to please stop and desist posting such information and speculation.

I graduated from George Mason in 2002 (undergrad), and Jon did in 1996, long before I was there. We never have met. Please do not infer we are the same person (we're not at all the same person).

[lablady2]

krems: "I graduated from George Mason in 2002 (undergrad), and Jon did in 1996, long before I was there. We never have met."

Jon? So, you're on a first name basis with the author Jon Moseley...whom you've never met?

Just posting the facts, krems. If the truth is divisive, so be it. Google it all for yourself.

[jbkrems]

Lablady:

I just called him that because Jon Moseley's first name is "Jon," that is all. Am I on a first name basis with him? That's a ludicrist question... I do not even know "Mr. Moseley" personally. Now, Lablady, is that better, since I am referring to him as Mr. Moseley - ???

EVERYONE:

Lablady has said, "If truth is divisive, so be it." I challenge everyone to confront Lablady with how wrong and rude her attitude is here.

Thanks.

[miltietoast]

had breakfast with all my sick friends Sun
It was wonderful

[dust]

I'm not getting into anything, but I want to correct my statement in post my own post #725

Dust said, STILL, it's okay...God is working this out also.

This was referring to attacking Krems. It's not okay with me; what I meant was I believed that God is working this out. Just not okay with me and I shouldn't have said that.

[jbkrems]

Dust:

Did you get my e-mail asking if you had AIM - ?

[jonmoseley]

Wow, you people are downright CREEPY. You complain about too much intrusion while you were in Every Nation or MCM (and doubtless the next church you leave as well you will criticize as well), and yet YOU ACT LIKE A CULT going around researching people who say things you don't agree with you?

Look right here you are intimidating and stalking people, by your own admission, whom you disagree with.

THAT IS CREEPY. Can you not see the wrong in your hearts and in your attitudes when you are unable to focus on Biblical truth and instead you go around researching people who are trying to get you to TALK ABOUT THE BIBLE?

You SMEAR and INTIMIDATE those with different views than yours, and even go around trying to dig up private information on those posting here.

Whereas you post anonymously, look at how you behave.

As to my posts, if you lunge at my brother with a knife, I am going to smack you... until you drop the knife. When you lunge at my brother with a knife, you deserve to get smacked. Once you DROP THE KNIFE and GET CALM and are ready to talk peaceably and fairly, then we can talk forgiveness and discuss things reasonably.

But don't play those dishonest games, by complaining "Don't be rude to me while I am plunging my knife into our brother's back." Look at yourself first. You are not entitled to kind words while you hold a knife in your hand, swinging it at our brother.

[mcmstaff78]

When your brother has beaten up my sister first, and tries to beat me up, I'll use whatever means I need to defend my sister - including telling you to bug off.

No one is doing any "stalking". You can find all sorts of information about people on the Internet, and I don't see how that is "stalking". How about giving us your definition and any applicable legal code prior to throwing around such accusations as "stalking" and "intimidation" (just wondering who's being intimidated here, also).

[mil_gram]

JBK:

Sorry again for the long interval between my posts.

First I need to point out that you are now contradicting yourself. First you said,

</ul>“No, God is never the author of affliction, calamity, etc. Affliction and calamity is both the work of the devil.”</ul>

Then you said,

<tab>“God creates adversity and calamity, but He creates them to oppose those who oppose Him. That is, God does not create adversity and calamity for the Christian believer, but for His enemies.”

So which do you really believe? Are affliction, calamity, adversity, etc. the work of the devil or of God?

While affliction can have the connotation of “suffering due to ill health,”<&amp;#8212;>which meaning in the WOF mindset couldn’t be ascribed to the Lord<&amp;#8212;>that is not its primary definition. The primary meaning of affliction is pain, suffering, distress, trial, calamity, adversity, difficulty, etc.

This brings me to my next point. This has to do with your statement that “God does not create adversity and calamity for the Christian believer, but for His enemies.” Based on scripture, this is not always the case. Yes, calamity and affliction can be the judgment of God against unbelievers. But they are not always so. The Psalms are replete with references to God’s affliction on believers. Other scriptures speak of this as well.

Consider the following scriptures (ESV):

Ruth 1:21:
<tab>“I went away full, and the Lord has brought me back empty. Why call me Naomi, when the Lord has testified against me and the Almighty has brought calamity upon me?” (KJV has “hath afflicted me” instead of “brought calamity upon me.”)

Ruth is an Israelite (with an impressive lineage, of course, being the great-grandmother of David) who has apparently done nothing to deserve this calamity.

Job 2:10:
<tab>“But he said to her, ‘You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?’ In all this Job did not sin with his lips.” (“Evil” here can also mean “disaster.”)

The first chapter of Job states that he was “blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil.” And here Job “did not sin with his lips” in saying “shall we not receive evil [from God]?”; in other words, God did visit disaster upon him.

Ps. 119:75:
<tab>“I know, O Lord, that your rules are righteous, and that in faithfulness you have afflicted me.”

You have afflicted me. Verses 67 and 71 speak of the benefits of being afflicted, and, considering v. 75, they are probably referring to being afflicted by the Lord.

Finally, Isaiah Is. 53:4, speaking of Jesus:
<tab>“Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.”

Jesus himself was smitten by God.

There are other scriptures as well, including the ones I included in my last post.

So I’m wondering what scriptures confirm your statement that “God does not create adversity and calamity for the Christian believer, but for His enemies.”

Thanks for the continuing dialogue, and for any further thoughts you might have on this.

Mil

[mil_gram]

Whoa. HTML proficient I am not. Sorry for the code noise.

[jbkrems]

Mil:

That's quite alright. I was locked out of FactNet (could not post) for at least a day. My posting numbers have now been reset, but its still the same person.

As a general remark, sometimes I come out reasoning with people when I respond here. So, I might start out saying one thing, and then clarify it as I go onward. That's what I did, and its really not contradicting myself.

But let me clarify...

God is not the author of affliction or calamity when it is affecting the Christian believer. If the Christian believer is being afflicted, then it is demonic, and whatever the affliction is, God has come so that we can be delivered from it.

However, for the NON-Christian, God is the author of affliction and calamity because these people are God's enemies, and the Scripture plainly states that God will cause His enemies to be afflicted and so forth.

You stated, "The primary meaning of affliction is pain, suffering, distress, trial, calamity, adversity, difficulty, etc." I need to divide this definition up. When it comes to pain, suffering, distress, calamity, and adversity, none of these are authored by God. God sent His Son Jesus Christ to deliver us from pain, suffering, distress, calamity, and adversity.

However, trials and difficulties are different. Trials are something that God sometimes allows to happen, although God does not directly try us. Satan tried Job, and God just allowed it. But God was not its source. Difficulty is a vague term. I prefer the term "hardship." There are some hardships that we as believers can expect to go through, e.g. persecution, but God is not the source of that.

To be continued...

[freedom43]

Krems -- I wanted to apologize for being so harsh with you last week. I have read some of your recent posts and can tell you have made an effort to have a less strident tone. I appreciate that. Thanks.

[wiseasaserpentgentleasadove]

Hi, Mil.
Good try above with the html stuff. it is a bit frustrating, but you put a lot of effort into it, this little lesson might help (thanks to a few other people here who have helped me...you know who you are!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif)

Try this..to tab, type \indent[the stuff you want to indent] but instead of [] use {}.

so, to use your above quote, i will try it out.
you said:
\indent[>“God creates adversity and calamity, but He creates them to oppose those who oppose Him. That is, God does not create adversity and calamity for the Christian believer, but for His enemies.”]

which SHOULD look like this:
<blockquote>>“God creates adversity and calamity, but He creates them to oppose those who oppose Him. That is, God does not create adversity and calamity for the Christian believer, but for His enemies.”</blockquote>

if you use the { } instead of the [] as in my demonstration above.

(if this worked, I will be a little proud of myself..hehe)

[wiseasaserpentgentleasadove]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

[jbkrems]

Hello everybody. Unfortunately, after I posted Part 1 above, to Mil, the server went down.

Here is Part 2...

Mil: Next I would like to respond to your Scriptures.

Ruth 1:21 needs to be examined in context. Lets examine verse 20, first, then the rest of the story. Ruth 1:20 (NAS) states, "Naomi said to them, 'Do not call me Naomi, call me Mara, for the Almighty dealt very bitterly with me.' "

The next question for us, should be "Did Naomi do anything to have the Lord treat her bitterly?" What kind of behavior did she exhibit before verse 20?

Looking at verse 13, Naomi says, "the hand of the Lord has gone forth against me," so Naomi is already having a hard time. Again, we need to find out why she is saying these things...

Naomi here is dealing with loss. She lost her husband, and she lost her sons. The question then is: Did the Lord cause this? Did the Lord's hand actually go against her and "deal with her bitterly" - ? My answer is: No, Naomi is reacting and is becoming bitter towards the Lord herself.

However, we cannot assume that just because Naomi is saying these things that the Lord is actually responding to her as she describes. One thing we can glean from Ruth 1 is that we should not have Naomi's attitude, that we need to be thankful for everything, and be grateful to the Lord for what He has provided. Naomi is not responding in faith to the Lord at all, and so she may actually be at fault for some of this.

Looking at Job, Satan was bringing the challenges, not the Lord Himself. So, Job's characterization was not entirely accurate. I'll comment more on this below.

Looking at Psalm 119, let's actually look at what verses 67 and 71, before examining 75. Verse 67: "Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I keep Your word." Verse 71: "It is good for me I was afflicted, that I may learn Your statutes." Then, verse 75: "I know, O Lord, Your judgments are righteous, and in faithfulness You afflicted me." Here, affliction was coming against the psalmist as corrective discipline of the Lord, because the author of this psalm was AWAY from the Lord (the equivalent of a non-believer today).

I am going to address Isaish 53 in a moment, but before that, I need to address the issue that all these Scriptures you brought up are under the Old Covenant. As Christians, we are under the New Covenant, which the Bible teaches is BETTER, and so God deals with Christians differently now than he dealt with the Jews in the OT. The Bible further teaches that the Law of Moses brought a curse for those who disobeyed it. As Christians, we are delivered from the curse of the law of sin and death. Christ came to redeem us fully, and take away our afflictions and our sorrows.

Matt. 8:16-17 says, "When evening came, they brought to Jesus many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill. This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: 'He Himself took our infirmities and carried away our diseases.' " Matthew was quoting Isaiah 53:4, actually, because "griefs and sorrows" should more authentically be translated "infirmites and diseases." That is actually what the original Hebrew says.

Those who are God's enemies now, those who are NOT Christians, and are not on the Lord's side, are still under the curse of the Law of Moses, under Deut. 28. Christ became a curse for us, so that we can receive the blessings that God has made available to us through the Atonement.

What other questions may I answer for you?

[mil_gram]

Wise:

Thanks for the tips! I shall put them into practice. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Mil

[mil_gram]

JBK:

Thanks for the responses.

I’ll try to address each of your comments.

First, I asked you,

<blockquote>So I’m wondering what Scriptures confirm your statement that “God does not create adversity and calamity for the Christian believer, but for His enemies.”</blockquote>
You still have not provided any Scriptures to support this, and I’m wondering if you could do so.

In your post #18, you also said,

<blockquote>God is not the author of affliction or calamity when it is affecting the Christian believer. If the Christian believer is being afflicted, then it is demonic, and whatever the affliction is, God has come so that we can be delivered from it.</blockquote>
Again, Scripture references?

To this point I have not touched on God’s sovereignty as it pertains to nature. If what you’re saying above is true, no one would be harmed or killed by natural events. There are plenty of Scriptures pertaining to God’s sovereignty over nature (and I could provide them if you like). Are you saying that none of the victims of Hurricane Katrina or the Indonesian tsunami were Christians?

In your comments on Ruth 1, I can agree with you that, in context, we do not know whether the Lord caused the calamities that befell Ruth. It is unclear from the text. But we also cannot say definitively that God did not cause them, despite your insistence that he did not.

Your comments on Psalm 119 are disturbing. Perhaps you can clarify what you mean. I am referring to your comment that,

<blockquote>“Here, affliction was coming against the psalmist as corrective discipline of the Lord, because the author of this psalm was AWAY from the Lord (the equivalent of a non-believer today).”</blockquote>
I agree with your first part of the post, that God afflicted the psalmist as corrective discipline. And the Scriptures I referenced in my posts 7 and 8 confirm the essential argument, that God does on occasion afflict the people of God. But I certainly cannot agree that when the psalmist was “AWAY from the Lord” that he was “the equivalent of a non-believer today.” If you read the entire psalm, it is pretty clear that the author is a believer. Yes, an OT believer, but a believer by faith nonetheless (as Abraham was a believer by faith, and the father of all who believe by faith). If what you are saying is true, then whenever you sin, you are “away from the Lord” and are an unbeliever --- and you are justly condemned to God’s wrath. You would fall away anew every day, as you sin. (And you do agree that you sin daily, yes?) And if your perspective is true, what should we make of the way Paul addresses the Corinthian believers in 1 Corinthians:

<blockquote>To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 1:2-3)</blockquote>
(continued)

[mil_gram]

Paul wrote this to a community of believers that had committed some pretty serious sins, including incest, fornication, drunkenness, and spiritual arrogance. Yet Paul called them the church of God and sanctified, and said Jesus Christ was their Lord. Certainly they were believers, not unbelievers.

You didn’t comment much on Job, although you said you’d have more to say. You did say this:

<blockquote>Looking at Job, Satan was bringing the challenges, not the Lord Himself. So, Job’s characterization was not entirely accurate. I’ll comment more on this below.</blockquote>Reading between the lines, I think your brief comment on Job reveals a mischaracterization of faith that I’ve seen in the WOF community. As I noted earlier, in each instance when Job ascribed his affliction to God (not the devil), he did not sin. I think that is significant and worthy of serious consideration. It would seem to me that Job failed the “faith test” according to WOF theology. Would you say that a believer could in faith ascribe the devil’s work to God? God restored Job in the end, despite his apparent “lack of faith.” But in fact Job did not lack faith. He trusted God, despite the circumstances. Additional Scriptures for consideration from the book of Job:

<blockquote>While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, “The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you.” (Job 1:16)

While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, “Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house, and behold, a great wind came across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young people, and they are dead, and I alone have escaped to tell you.” (Job 1:18 - 19)</blockquote>The fire of God fell from heaven. This was not the fire of Satan, but the fire of God.

A great wind came across the wilderness… God, not the devil, is sovereign over nature.

Regarding your comments on Isaiah, I largely agree with your statements on the nature of the new covenant in contrast with the old covenant, and I am glad to see them. However, I am not sure I agree with your statement that “Matthew was quoting Isaiah 53:4, actually, because ‘griefs and sorrows’ should more authentically be translated ‘infirmites [sic] and diseases.’ That is actually what the original Hebrew says.” On what basis are you saying that “griefs and sorrows” should more authentically be translated “infirmities and diseases”? I do not read ancient Hebrew; perhaps you do and can speak more to this (I have read that you were raised in a Jewish family). But all the versions of the Bible I consulted (ESV, KJV, NKJV, NASB) translate Isaiah 53:4 as “griefs and sorrows.” Only the NIV has “infirmities and sorrows.” None includes “diseases.” As you no doubt know, modern translations, especially the quite literal NASB, translate the OT directly from the Hebrew texts. The ESV is considered by many to be perhaps the finest English translation.

(continued)

[mil_gram]

I’d like to close with some passages from some texts that are helpful on these topics. First, regarding your comments on Matt. 8:16-17 in relation to Isaiah 53:4, Craig Keener’s commentary on Matthew is helpful:

<blockquote>Matthew himself also recognizes that genuine physical healings can illustrate principles of spiritual healing (9:5-7, 12; 13:15). But we should note the correct caution of D.A. Carson (1984:207):</blockquote><blockquote>This text and others clearly teach that there is healing in the Atonement; but similarly there is the promise of a resurrection body in the Atonement, even if believers do not inherit it until the Parousia. From the perspectives of the NT writers, the Cross is the basis for all the benefits that accrue to believers; but this does not mean that all such benefits can be secured at the present time on demand, any more than we have the right and power to demand our resurrection bodies.</blockquote>(The IVP New Testament Commentary Series: Matthew, Craig S. Keener, p. 178)

On pp. 150-151 of his book Trusting God Even When Life Hurts, Jerry Bridges says this:

<blockquote>As Lamentations 3:33 states, “For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men.”

God disciplines us with reluctance, though He does it faithfully. He does not delight in our adversities, but He will not spare us that which we need to grow more and more into the likeness of His Son. It is our imperfect spiritual condition that makes discipline necessary.

This is not to say that every adversity that occurs in our lives is related to some specific sin we have committed. The issue God is dealing with in our lives is not so much what we do, but what we are. All of us tend to underestimate the remaining sinfulness in our hearts. We fail to see the extent of pride, fleshly self-confidence, selfish ambitions, stubbornness, self-justification, lack of love, and distrust of God that He does see. But adversity brings these sinful dispositions to the surface just as the refiner’s fire brings impurities to the surface of the molten gold.</blockquote>(continued)

[mil_gram]

C.S. Lewis offers some keen insight in The Problem of Pain:

<blockquote>The problem of reconciling human suffering with the existence of a God who loves, is only insoluble so long as we attach a trivial meaning to the word, “love,” and look on things as if man were the centre of them. Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake. “Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” We were made not primarily that we may love God (though we were made for that too) but that God may love us, that we may become objects in which the Divine love may rest “well pleased.” (pp. 47-48)

God, who made us, knows what we are and that our happiness lies in Him. Yet we will not seek it in him as long as He leaves us any other resort where it can even plausibly be looked for. While what we call “our own life” remains agreeable we will not surrender it to Him. What then can God do in our interests but make “our own life” less agreeable to us, and take away the plausible sources of false happiness? It is just here, where God’s providence seems at first to be most cruel, that the Divine humility, the stooping down of the Highest, most deserves praise. (p. 96)

The Christian doctrine of suffering explains, I believe, a very curious fact about the world we live in. The settled happiness and security which we all desire, God withholds from us by the very nature of the world: but joy, pleasure, and merriment He has scattered broadcast. We are never safe, but we have plenty of fun, and some ecstasy. It is not hard to see why. The security we crave would teach us to rest our hearts in this world and oppose an obstacle to our return to God: a few moments of happy love, a landscape, a symphony, a merry meeting with our friends, a bathe or a football match, have no such tendency. Our Father refreshes us on the journey with some pleasant inns, but will not encourage us to mistake them for home. (p. 115)</blockquote>I would recommend both the Bridges and Lewis books to you.

Finally, I again appeal to you to provide some Scriptural support for your assertions. I am certainly open to having my mind changed, as I would hope you are.

Thanks.

Mil

[jbkrems]

Mil: I am going to try to respond to you with as much Scripture as possible, and respond to you in order as much as I can.

I said, "God does not create adversity and calamity for the Christian believer, but for His enemies," and you asked for me to provide Bible support for this statement. The Scriptures are replete with statements like in James 4:6, which states, "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble," and that is a re-quote of Prov. 3:34. This is a Bible principle. In Deut. 28, God lays out blessings and curses. If you choose to follow God, then you are entitled to the blessings. If you choose to reject God, then you receive the curses. Adversity and calamity are specifically addressed here, and later. Deut. 28:15 and 25 states, "But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: (25) The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth."

Further, in Deut. 30:15-16, "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and ADVERSITY; in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and keep His commandmants and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you enter to possess it."

Continued...

[jbkrems]

What we see in Deut. 28 and 30 is a Bible principle that was not extinguished in the New Covenant, which is a better covenant. Do I need to provide the Scriptures from Hebrews about that???

Next, I said, "God is not the author of affliction or calamity when it is affecting the Christian believer. If the Christian believer is being afflicted, then it is demonic, and whatever the affliction is, God has come so that we can be delivered from it." You asked for the Scriptures that support this conceptually...

First, look at the story of Job. God allowed Satan to afflict Job like that, but that was under the Old Covenant. Christians have something better than what Job had. We have the New Covenant. Gal. 3:13-14 states, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law (everything listed in Deut. 28 as a curse), having become a curse for us, for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,' in order that in Christ Jesus that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." The major thrust of the New Covenant is that Christ came to redeem the Christian believer from all the Curse listed in Deut. 28, which includes calamity and adversity.

Then, you recently mentioned, "If what you’re saying above is true, no one would be harmed or killed by natural events." This is a loaded and controversial statement. You imply that God is sovereign over nature, but did not supply any Scripture to support THAT argument. However, what I believe is that God is NOT sovereign over nature, and Satan can use hurricanes to wreak havoc in the world just as much as God could in the Old Covenant.

Let's look at an interesting promise in the OT. In Gen. 9:12 and 15, "This is the sign of the covenant that I make between Me and you and every living creature with you, for ALL successive generations;... and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and NEVER AGAIN shall the water become a FLOOD to DESTROY all flesh." Continued...

[jbkrems]

Mil: Continuing...

The issue, then, is why are people harmed or killed by natural events, in light of Gen. 9 and the rainbow covenant. First, the Bible describes Satan as a thief, John 10:10, "The thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly." The Bible is very clear that a major purpose of Jesus' first coming was to destroy the works of the enemy, 1 John 3:8, "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." This is another covenant promise.

The key is the believer must appropriate by faith these covenant promises when faced by major hurricanes, e.g. Katrina. I know of Christians who have prayed against Katrina, and their property was protected. One of the blessings listed in Deut. 28 is divine protection (see Deut. 28:7). If the believer fails to appropriate these promises by faith, then there can be no expectation to receive from God. Hebrews 11:6 says, "Without faith it is impossible to please God, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

Continued...

[jbkrems]

Mil: Next I am going to respond to your comments on Psalm 119. I said, "Here, affliction was coming against the psalmist as corrective discipline of the Lord, because the author of this psalm was AWAY from the Lord (the equivalent of a non-believer today)." You then agreed with part of what I said about corrective discipline, but then disagreed when I said that the psalmist in this passage was "AWAY from the Lord," and the same as a "non-believer today."

First, when Psalm 119 was written, the psalmist WAS a believer. He is discussing his past and is speaking in hindsight. In verse 67, the psalmist wrote, "Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I keep Your word." The psalmist is implying here that one goes astray from NOT keeping God's word, not obeying God's commandmants.

The Bible is very clear, esp. in the NT, that Christians MUST keep and obey God's word. Jesus said in John 14:23-24, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word that you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me." John brings this up again in 1 John 4:20-21, "If someone says that he loves God, and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandmant we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love His brother also." Also please read 1 John 5:2-3.

The point here, is that someone who keeps God's word is a believer under the NT definition, and someone who does NOT keep God's word is in disobedience, which is equivocated with unbelief, making someone who has gone astray, or BACKSLIDDEN, the equivalent of a non-believer. I KNOW this sounds very harsh, but that is what the Bible clearly teaches in John 14 and 15, as well as in 1 John 4 and 5. Continued...

[jbkrems]

Wrapping up our discussion on Psalm 119, the psalmist was AWAY from the Lord, according to verse 67, the psalmist went ASTRAY by becoming disobedient and NOT keeping God's word. God had to use corrective discipline to make the psalmist a believer again... he clearly repented and then wrote Psalm 119 in reflection of these events.

But then you said, "If what you are saying is true, then whenever you sin, you are “away from the Lord” and are an unbeliever --- and you are justly condemned to God’s wrath. You would fall away anew every day, as you sin. (And you do agree that you sin daily, yes?)" Alright, let me clarify a few points here. First, yes, if the Christian goes ASTRAY, meaning BACKSLIDES, then they are in disobedience which is unbelief, and this can block the Christian from receiving God's blessings, because it is a hindrance to walking in faith and love as the believer is commanded and exhorted to in the Scriptures.

This does NOT mean that the believer automatically loses salvation. However, I do believe that for those who CONTINUE in a lifestyle of disobedience and sin CAN and WILL lose their salvation through such disobedience leading to unbelief, and a rejection of Christ as Lord and Savior. According to Romans 10:9-10, one becomes a Christian by confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart Jesus is the Lord and Savior. If you live in such disobedience leading to unbelief, then you can un-do what you once did in Romans 10:9-10. I am NOT a Calvinist, here.

Last clarification: I do not believe that every Christian sins daily. I believe that a Christian believer can come to the place where they walk in such victory over sin that there are days when NO sin is committed. This is normative for the believer. If we are quick to repent, then this should be expected and we should be exercising our faith towards God to help us NOT sin and OVERCOME sin, and therefore we can have the power to NOT sin, and NOT sin on a daily basis, but only on occasion, or even never, at some point. Continued...

[jbkrems]

Mil: Then you wrote, referring to 1 Cor. 1:2-3, "Paul wrote this to a community of believers that had committed some pretty serious sins... Yet Paul called them the church of God and sanctified, and said Jesus Christ was their Lord. Certainly they were believers, not unbelievers."

This is correct. If you are born again, you are already sanctified and considered a "saint," which means one who has been made holy, in the eyes of God. We WERE once sinners, but we have been saved by God's grace, and therefore, we are NO LONGER sinners, but we are NOW saints. However, Christians still can struggle with sin, and that is why Paul brought a corrective word, so that these Christians at Corinth could gain victory over sin, and stop sinning altogether.

Next, let's discuss the experience of Job. I'm going straight to the Scriptures here, 1:16, and then verses 18-19. Job 1:16 states in the NAS, "Another (messenger) came and said, 'the fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep..." Earlier in Job 1, God allowed Satan to test Job. Satan did the testing, not God. In verse 16, this messenger is describing an act of Satan as an act of God. According to the footnote in my Bible, this fire is lightning. Then, in verses 18-19, "another came and said... a great wind..." This time the wind is not ascribed to God. However, you ascribe these events to God and not Satan because you believe God is sovereign over nature. I completely disagree with this view. God is NOT sovereign over nature. Satan can use nature, e.g. hurricanes as I discussed above, and Christians can pray for God's divine protection as part of the blessing that Jesus came to bring us.

Satan is described as the "prince of the power of the air" in Eph. 2:2. In John 10:10, Satan is a thief who comes to "steal, kill, and destroy." In the story of Job, it is clear that Satan is doing the actions here, not God. The messenger ascribed the lightning as an act of God erroneously, and God is NOT sovereign over nature.

Continued...

[jbkrems]

Mil: The next key issue is Isaiah 53. You asked me, "On what basis are you saying that “griefs and sorrows” should more authentically be translated “infirmities and diseases”?" Good question.

First of all, let's go to what it says in Matthew 8:16-17, "When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill. This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: 'He Himself Took Our Infirmities and Carried Away Our Diseases.' " According to the footnote in my NAS, this is a quote of Isaiah 53:4.

Next, lets examine the original Hebrew in the King James Version. There is a wonderful online tool to do this, which is Blue Letter Bible. They have wonderful cross-references with Strong's Concordance. According to Strong's, the Hebrew word for "griefs" in Isaiah 53:4 is "choliy," and can be translated as sickness, disease, affliction, sadness, or calamity. The Hebrew word for "sorrows" in Isaiah 53:4 is "makob," and this can be translated as "pain." Thus, Matthew was correct in 8:17, and Jesus came to take away all of these things if we believe on His name. Praise God!!!

Regarding your quote that said, "the Cross is the basis for all the benefits that accrue to believers; but this does not mean that all such benefits can be secured at the present time on demand, any more than we have the right and power to demand our resurrection bodies," this statement is only half correct. The Cross IS the basis for all benefits accruing to believers, but then the rest of the statement is not what the Bible teaches. Healing is made possible in the Atonement just as salvation is made possible, and both can be secured on demand if the believer exercises faith for the need. Keener is reading into the texts with certain assumptions that you have not vocalized here, and so, that's really all I can say to rebut him.

Continued...

[jbkrems]

Mil: Finally we come to your quotes from Bridges and Lewis. I'll address Bridges first, and then the astute C.S. Lewis.

The view that Jerry Bridges is presenting in his interpretation of Lam. 3:33 is an Old Covenant and legalistic view of God. He is using Lam. 3:33 as a proof text to show the judgment side of God against God's people. God has changed the way He deals with His covenant people (Christian believers) under the New Covenant. God no longer afflicts His people with adversity to teach them a lesson, so they will conform to the likeness of Christ. The primary means God uses to conform His people to the likeness of Christ under the New Covenant is the power of the Holy Spirit, by which the believer can learn to exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit as listed in Gal. 5. So, Bridges is incorrect here.

C.S. Lewis' quote is an astute observation, and most likely correct. The issue here is how we should interpret his statement. If by suffering you mean hardship, persecution, and taking up one's cross to do God's will when it is uncomfortable, as well as suffering for unrighteousness (meaning you committed grievous sin and reap what you sow), then that would be a correct and accurate interpretation of the quote.

However, if you interpret suffering here as pain, disease, affliction, infirmity, sickness, and so forth, then based on Matthew 8:17, Isa. 53:4, and several other Scriptures, your interpretation would be incorrect and inaccurate.

I hope these several posts have helped you understand my view and the Scripture support for it. If you have any follow-up questions, I'd be glad to address them. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Mil-gram
Welcome and well done,well written and researched thank you.}