Taking Issues off the Table for more Fruitful Debate [Archive]

jonmoseley

10-27-2006, 03:42 PM

Can we narrow down the discussion to some GENUINE issues, and take the following off the table?

So far we have determined the following. And I say that because EVEN if we accept your factual allegation as true (though perhaps not your rhetoric or conclusions) the following must be true:

1) You have completely fabricated a FAKE accusation against a church concerning the theology of the trinity. When called to account that you have failed to identify anything wrong with EN's theology about the trinity, you respond that "Well the environemnt was bad" or "The statement of faith doesn't mention this or that obscure controversy [that we would not expect it to dive into being almost unheard of]" or you make it clear that you are intentionally FISHING to find something wrong, and you HAVE NOT FOUND IT YET... but just wait you hope to.

The most anyone has said is that EN updated its statement of fatih. And...? So...? Lots of churches come out with a new and improved statement of faith. That does not make the previous one "wrong." Furthrmore, a statement of faith is a BRIEF summary that does not explore every aspect of theological concepts that one would go through in 2 to 4 years of seminary. You raise something that I have never even heard of before, so why would a BRIEF statement of faith address such a concept as being obscure and largely unknown?

You say that there is room for people to misunderstand, but then ATTACK the concept of a common foundational Bible study (Purple Book) precisely to CURE THAT VERY PROBLEM. You attack the very CONCEPT (not CONTENT) of a common Bible Study to make sure everyone is one the same page, intiially, and nobody is missing the essential foundations.

SO you simultaneously attack the lack of more than a statement of faith, and also attack the solution that has been provided (in concept, not just content).

So we see that you have FABRICATED a fake attack on a church. Should we believe anything else you have to say?

2) We have clearly established, even taking all of your factual allegations as true, that there was NO COVER UP by Every Nation concerning Paul Daniels or the Pastor in LA "TF."

Perhaps there was a cover up about Paul Daniels by His People before His People joined EN in 2001 and perhaps even by HP leaders for some time thereafter.

But it was Every Nation who intervened and removed Paul Daniels from ministry. Were it not for EN, Paul Daniels would probably still be in the ministry today.

You do mention a fax sent to Victory in the Phillipines although you know that the scriptures call upon us to REJECT such communications, but tell us in 1 Timothy to receive an accusation against an elder only on the TESTIMONY (not upon the rumors) of 2 or more WITNESSES. That does not mean that 2 or more people SPREAD A RUMOR. That means WITNESSES... someone with direct, personal knowledge.

So was it CORRECT for Victory to ignore such a fax? I don't know myself what the fax said, but I strongly suspect from what I have heard here that someone sent a rumor by Fax, and there was no expectation, Biblically, for that to be taken seriously, and it should have been shredded and tossed in the trash. The Bible commands us to receive an accusation against an elder only upon the TESTIMONY (official) of 2 or more WITNESSES (those with first-hand knowledge, not rumor-mongers).

Will it sometimes be that the rumor is true? Yes. But that does not relieve us from the Biblical obligations not to listen to rumors, true or false.

jonmoseley

10-27-2006, 03:45 PM

3) TITHING is Biblical and Biblically commanded, as well as being nearly universally held as true.

Your continued attacks on MCM and EN because -- horrors -- they actually believed the Bible and taught tithing as the Bible teaches betray you as having walked away from the faith entirely, not just walking away from one church, that you now reject the Bible, God, and God's authority.

THere is nothing in the Bible that authorizes or suggests that the tithe is to be calculated on anything other than one's GROSS (total) income "off the top." The discussions of the agricultural origins make it clear that it was always understood as 10% of EVERYTHING.

If you don't want to tithe, be my guest.

But you must agree that there is nothing wrong with a church that teaches what the Bible teaches on the subject. MCM and EN were/are 100% correct about the tithe.

You go do what you want.

But you are FABRICATING an attack, again, on MCM and now EN by attacking the Biblical commandment of the tithe.

4) You attack MCM (falsely) for doing the very thing that you yourselves do, which is to talk trash about fellow Christians. This entire Board is talking trash about Christians and Christian leaders. Yet one of the complaints you raise is that (so you say, I never saw it/heard it) MCM leaders disparaged people when they left the church. But this is the very thing you are doing yourselves!

NOTE: THIS IS NOT A PRIVATE BOARD. THIS IS VISIBLE TO 1 BILLION PEOPLE WORLDWIDE (or however many Internet users there are these days). A search from Google or Yahoo brings up these discussions to anyone around the planet on the Internet.

If perhaps you created a members-only Board in which you could discuss these things privately amongst yourself you might have a little better cover. But that would still be gossiping.

SO.....

Can we take the above off the table and geton with focusing on more genuine issues of discussion? Can we put the above to rest once and for all?

matt_hatter

10-27-2006, 03:46 PM

Dude, get the message: quit creating NEW threads every time you get up to get a new bowl of cheetos. This is getting tiring.

40days40years

10-27-2006, 03:49 PM

thank you Matt Hatter and J-2 is hot.

matt_hatter

10-27-2006, 03:53 PM

40, me thinks if we continue to "bunny trail" this guy,(wow a noun turned into a verb, cool, huh?) he will finally get tired, and we can go back to reaching that 1 billion people worldwide (hahaha-now that's funny) with our pearls of wisdom.

freedom43

10-27-2006, 03:56 PM

You say PURPLE BOOK and TITHING; I say (from FactNet's "What is a Destructive Cult?): "The cult has basically only two purposes, recruiting new members and fund-raising."

You say TRINITY; I say manipulation, abuse and control.

You say GOSSIP; I say truthful descriptions of people's experiences, in the light of day for all to read. No more conspiracy of silence.

You say FAX, I say affidavit.

Can we take this off the table now and focus on....hmmmm....how you can move on with your life now that you have left a destructive cult?

coppertree

10-27-2006, 03:57 PM

Jon,
At first blush "WE" have not determined anything, not a thing. You are assuming facts not in evidence. This would be incorrect of you to think so. There is no "WE ".}

40days40years

10-27-2006, 03:59 PM

Yes Jon new rules, submit this post into the proper category. This is torture for me. The cuckoo boys laugh at me, Philip R and speak smirk.

OBEY! THIS is MARANATHA BOY now obey the rules.

matt_hatter

10-27-2006, 04:53 PM

Dang 40, Moses has really done a masterful job. The hatter is telling him to follow the rules. Miracles by the bucket full.

40days40years

10-27-2006, 05:03 PM

Yep, it is a plot by Philip R. Who can resist it?

NO MATTER HATTER OBEY THE RULES JON!!

annelewis

10-27-2006, 06:06 PM

For all of its other problems, this post is an excellent example of crazymaking.

j2theperson

10-27-2006, 07:04 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

40/40: thank you Matt Hatter and J-2 is hot.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Way to hijack the thread, 40/40! Although, I believe the correct spelling should be "hottt". http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

dust

10-27-2006, 07:09 PM

Okay, I'm thinking of dressing up my little dog as Little Red Riding Hood and Moses can play the big bad Wolf. But, then is that really dressing up!

Okay, sorry, I'm BunnyTrailing another Thread.

dust

10-27-2006, 07:15 PM

Never talk to a wolf....not a good idea, it's not like their thinking "what point is she going to make next"

 NO...They're thinking dinner!

matt_hatter

10-27-2006, 07:19 PM

bunny trail---a noun that has become a verb in the factnet dictionary.
Example:
What are you doing tonight?
I think I will look for a new Moses disertation and bunny trail him in one post.

OK, I won't forget the lesson of separating the serious/humoruos threads....after we bunny trail him to death.

miltietoast

10-27-2006, 07:29 PM

moses bears witness to himself

dust

10-27-2006, 07:33 PM

Matt: after we bunny trail him to death.

Dust: These kind are hard to kill....We may also need Wildwood's can of RAID

Okay, I"m taking off to Starbucks for a few hours to get some work done, cause they don't have WIFI...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

mcmstaff78

10-27-2006, 08:15 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

jonmoseley

10-27-2006, 08:23 PM

By the way, all the talk about bunnies reminds me of gardening. MOST of the situations for tithing involved what people GREW ON THEIR OWN LAND, in their own garden, or births among their own cattle.

So it is clear that tithing involves gross, not net. We are commanded to tithe on EVEN what grows in your own garden... not just what people pay you. AND NOT what is left over from your garden AFTER YOU HAVE EATEN (net).

I say this not because I care, but because you have attacked MCM and EN for teaching what the Bible teaches, for "teaching the whole counsel of God."

In trying to squirm out of the wrongness of your attack, you respond by such things as "Well, I think it should be net not gross."

But the Bible makes it clear that it is YOU, not EN, that is wrong.

Do I care what you do? NO, NOT AT ALL!

But if you make false accusations against a church, I will tell you THEY are right and you are wrong.

mcmstaff78

10-27-2006, 08:33 PM

If anyone wants a bit of a different perspective on what the Bible actually teaches on tithing, especially under the New Covenant, may click here (http://www.bibleinsight.com/tithing.html). (Note: I'm in no way affiliated with this web site, don't know the author, etc., etc.) Just as a taste, I post these words from the conclusion:

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Despite 'physical tithing' being commonly taught in Christian churches there is no support for including a corruption of this Old Covenant principle in the New Testament.

The words of Jesus Christ in Matt 23:23 and Luke 11:42 were merely confirming the requirement of the Old Covenant as indeed were His words in Matt 8:4. Christ having been 'born under the law' supported
the Law during His ministry.

We do not find in the example of the apostles mention of any need for the Gentile churches to tithe or give a fixed percentage. Rather we
observe the apostle Paul suggesting 'equality', ensuring neither the provider or the receiver should be burdened, was the objective.

Malachi 3:8-12 should be viewed along with the less complementary Amos 4:1-12. It is wrong to use Old Covenant prophetic teaching in their raw form to try and strengthen the view that literal tithing is required today!<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

jonmoseley

10-28-2006, 03:28 AM

Jesus said I did not come to abolish the law. Jesus said that not one jot or tittle of the law will fall away.

Jesus clearly watched the givers bringing their tithes and offerings to the temple.

Jesus talked about money more than hell.

The apostles clearly talked about the giving of the saints PRESUMING that they all understood that tithing continued to be an obligation unto God.

Everyone they were talking to had been taught all of these things and did not need to hear it again.

Jesus did not explicitly name the prophets He was quoting from... because His listeners all KNEW the prophets... they had studied them all their lives.

Tithing was a "given."

Tithing pre-dates Moses, in fact. See Abraham tithing to Melchizedek.

NOTHING the apostles or Jesus said can be taken to remove the requirement of tithing.

HOWEVER... ALTHOUGH YOU ARE CLEARLY *WRONG* the issue is even more fundamental.

You call a church illegitmate for teaching what the majority of Christians around the world believe.

YOU ARE WRONG on the tithe, but that is not the issue.

You cannot call a church (MCM or EN) illegitimate for holding a different view than yours.

Whether you are right or wrong (and you are wrong), EN (and MCM) HOLD A REASONABLE, BIBLE-BASED BELIEF THAT IS SHARED BY THE VAST MAJORITY OF STUDENTS OF THE BIBLE, MINISTERS, AND AUTHORITIES TODAY.

Even if you were in the majority (you are in a tiny minority of unusual thinkers on this topic), YOU CANNOT SAY THAT MCM's or EN's position is illegitimate or makes it an illegitimate church.

When it comes to tithing, YOU are the weirdos, the cult, the strange ones.... not EN or MCM

robert_unknown

10-28-2006, 06:53 AM

Jon
we wont discuss with you 100times about the same isses, because it is senseless. you say we have failed to prove our point of view about certain things, but thats only because YOU do not, and will never accept our arguments and our experiences.
Either you negelect ANYTHING another persons say, or what has been written here in this board long before you arose on the scenes, or you just ignore it, when you lack arguments.

it makes more sense to talk to the wall here in my room than to talk to you!

As is said before: you give me a good confirmation about my concerns for EN!

if you like to tithe, if you like that someone else tells you what to believe and what to do in personal decisions, if you like to be treated like crap, just go back. i am sure where you live is a nice EN church... otherwise you can start one by your own... your lack of humility, your lack of love, your ignoring of real concerns, your sympathy for abuse and abusers, your brainwashing language predestinates you for a fine leadership role in this cult!

however. find peace about the fact, that FactNet is not the place to recrute people... and please leave us in peace!

jbkrems

10-28-2006, 07:37 AM

I got to jump in here and say something...

Robert: I may not agree with you on the issue of tithing, but I think you are "right on" as you respond to Jon Moseley here.

Jon Moseley; I've been looking at some of your recent posts, and I AGREE with what you are trying to say, in substance.

However, when you come out and make this remark: "When it comes to tithing, YOU are the weirdos, the cult, the strange ones.... not EN or MCM," then I find that remark offensive and inappropriate.

Jon, I AGREE with you 100% that believers need to tithe. Doctrinally, you are probably a purist and have everything 100% correct.

However, the presentation you are making here on the Boards is divisive and is not fruitful. There is an old saying my mother taught me, "Bees are attracted more by honey, not vinegar." The way in which you are posting, with the name-calling and all of that, is vinegar here on the Boards, and its offensive. Please refrain from that kind of tactic, and exhibit some real love so that those who disagree with you might learn to respect you, and possibly be persuaded to change their doctrinal ideas otherwise. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

jonmoseley

10-28-2006, 07:42 AM

JESUS SPECIFICALLY ENDORSED TITHING as appropriate on a continuing basis:

Matthew 23:23 -- Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, WITHOUT NEGLECTING THE FORMER.

Luke 11:42 -- Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter WITHOUT LEAVING THE FORMER UNDONE.

(emphases added).

By Jesus saying that we SHOULD NOT NEGLECT THE OTHERS -- including TITHING -- JESUS EXPLICITLY COMMANDED US TO CONTINUE TITHING.

For an exhaustive analysis of the Biblical REQUIREMENT of tithing, which continues today, see:

http://mcu.edu/papers/tithe.htm

D.James Kennedy agrees with EN, and NOT you.

http://www.kennedycommentary.org/default.asp?pg=topicmessage&id=395

Pat Robertson agrees with EN and NOT you...

http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/cbnteachingsheets/giving_and_tithing.aspx

NOW... let's get this straight: Will God forgive you under the blood of Jesus if you don't tithe? Yes, obviously. But is it wrong to ignore the tithe? Yes, it is wrong not to tithe. Is it "robbing God?" Yes. Will GOD STILL FORGIVE YOU ANYWAY...? OBVIOUSLY or else the salvation of Jesus Christ could mean nothing.

However, is it doubly wrong to ATTACK a church as being illegitimate for teaching what God commands? Yes, it is doubly wrong to attack a church for being Biblically correct.

Will God forgive you? Yes, I think God will forgive you even for wrongly attacking a church (although He may want you to ask first for forgiveness).

But is it right for you to go on attacking a church for teaching what God commands? No, that is wrong and you ought to stop.

jbkrems

10-28-2006, 07:47 AM

Jon Moseley:

I agree with you 100% that it is wrong for others here to attack EveryNation, etc. because EN believes in tithing and the people here do not.

However, YOU need to stop YOUR attacking people here in this forum, where YOU call people "weirdos" or "strange ones" or "a cult," as you did above. If you expect the people here to stop their attacking, then YOU need to stop YOUR personal attacks, as well. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

jonmoseley

10-28-2006, 07:49 AM

As to complaints about being called on the carpet, what despicable hypocrites you are!

You have made the most vile and despicable accusations against God's church, which you know to be false and unfair and misplaced.

In this discussion in particular you were given the opportunity to concede that not all of the TOXIC STEW and ACID BATH of your attacks here and elsewhere are true, and to retract over-blown attacks.

Instead of admitting that there is nothing wrong with EN teaching the Bible about tithing, no cover up by EN, NOTHING wrong with EN's theology on the trinity, etc., you demonstrated that you are STRETCHING to find some way -- any way -- to attack and disparage part of God's kingdom.

You make it clear that you are INVENTING -- FABRICATING -- attacks against EN, and even MCM itself. And when it is pointed out you do not pull back but jump over the cliff into unrestrained deceit and vile and poisonous fake attacks.

What I have said is not 1/1000ths as harsh as your poisonous accusations and vile behavior and misconduct on this Board -- which can be read by 1 billion people around the planet.

Nothing I have said is strong enough to condemn your behavior.

osakadan

10-28-2006, 07:52 AM

Right on Jon. Let's just listen to that nutter Pat Robertson. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

jbkrems

10-28-2006, 07:52 AM

Jon Moseley:

Are you ignoring my posts, or can you respond???

jonmoseley

10-28-2006, 07:56 AM

Remember that the topic and purpose of this thread is that certain topics are clearly NOT fair attacks and should be taken off the table. In reply to that attempt to narrow the discussion, those here have demonstrated their eagerness to tell lies about part of God's church. There is no accomodation for such misconduct.

I am ready to accept any legitimate criticism. Indeed,I provided a link to the FBI and advice about finding a lawyer to investigate Vanguard's concerns about finances by Phil Bonasso. What stronger agreement can there be with genuine criticisms than that you contact the FBI (turns out he already had but I posted the website address for filing a complaint)?

However, we must be equally strong in condemning lies and false attacks.

jonmoseley

10-28-2006, 08:02 AM

JBKREMS WROTE: However, YOU need to stop YOUR attacking people here in this forum, where YOU call people "weirdos" or "strange ones" or "a cult," as you did above. UNQUOTE

THEN YOU ADMIT THAT 99% of what is written by the critics on this Board is inappropriate, BECAUSE THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE SAYING ABOUT A LARGE CHURCH which is preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

I said that in reference to the entire MESSAGE of this entire Board. That is what they are saying repeatedly about EN.

WHY do you contend that this entire Board can exist to call EN a cult, an illegitimate church, or even the lesser comments of religious "weirdos" or "strange" ?

What I said is that before they make that attack on EN they should realize that THEY ARE THE ONES who fit the description of what THEY ARE SAYING.

Go back and read what JESUS CHRIST said about similar people. He called them vipers and much worse.

matt_hatter

10-28-2006, 08:08 AM

Moses, you are wound too tight. Sure old Bobby Weiner ain't sittin' there with ye telling you what to type???

jbkrems

10-28-2006, 08:12 AM

Jon Moseley: If you would like to personally chat with me, you can AIM me at jbkforchrist.

I AGREE that most of what is written here is inappropriate. 99% may not be an accuate figure, but YES, most of what's written here by critics is not appropriate, regardless of whether the content and doctrine is correct.

I do not agree with what most people say here. I do not think it is right for people to label EN a cult, an illegitimate church, or even "weird," or "strange." There are denominations and sects within Christianity that I personally disagree with, but I do not label them like that... we just agree to disagree.

Finally, Jon, I want to share with you what a friend of mine said at my church's Young Adult meeting a few weeks ago. She said that when dealing with people who disagree with you on a doctrinal basis, yet are still your brothers and sisters in Christ, the key should be to love and care for them, ask them how you can pray for them, etc. That's really exhibiting true love and true unity.

Again, if you would like to go one-on-one with me, and have a personal discussion, you can AIM me at jbkforchrist. I am on right now, and will be for a few more hours, until 4:30AM Central Time. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

jonmoseley

10-28-2006, 08:52 AM

That bottom line is that the people attacking EN on this board ARE THE ABUSERS.

You are NOT the victims... you are the victimizers.

You are not recipients of abuse. YOU ARE CAUSING ABUSE. YOU ARE THE ABUSE. You ARE the abusers.

osakadan

10-28-2006, 09:01 AM

No Jon, it is people like you that fail to address facts that allow MCM/MS/EN and continually fail to be objective, that allow the cycle of abuse to continue.

osakadan

10-28-2006, 09:03 AM

No Jon, it is people like you that fail to address facts that allow MCM/MS/EN and continually fail to be objective, that allow the cycle of abuse to continue.

osakadan

10-28-2006, 09:05 AM

No Jon, it is people like you that fail to address facts that allow MCM/MS/EN and continually fail to be objective, that allow the cycle of abuse to continue.

jbkrems

10-28-2006, 09:24 AM

Jon: You need to stop the name-calling, now. You will not get a response if you do not.

By calling people in here the "abusers" you are continuing to name-call, which I have asked you to stop. Name-calling is divisive, and not fruitful.

The Bible says in Titus 3:10 (NKJV), "Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing such a man is perverted and sinning, being self-condemned."

Do I have to apply that Scripture to you and your divisive behavior here on the Boards, and encourage others to treat you as a heretic and a heathen???

Again, if you'd like to contact me via AIM, I encourage you to do so, and my SN for AIM is jbkforchrist.

Jon, I love you as a brother in the Lord, and I care about you. I agree with you doctrinally, and I want what is best for you. But the way you are debating here is not Christ-like. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

jbkrems

10-28-2006, 09:25 AM

jbkrems

10-28-2006, 09:26 AM

jbkrems

10-28-2006, 09:28 AM

jbkrems

10-28-2006, 09:32 AM

jbkrems

10-28-2006, 09:33 AM

jbkrems

10-28-2006, 09:34 AM

wildwood_

10-28-2006, 09:55 AM

Hi Jonathon (JBK): http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif I very much appreciated your words both the other night, and those you just posted above. I know I disagree with you on many things; but I've never doubted your love for the Lord and have enjoyed seeing you grow in Grace & Stature in your postings....still able to from time to time be an annoyingly sharp bit of iron...but the sharpening blesses me !! I don't know or perhaps I should say care much about the various Buildings we worship in; but I care deeply about the hearts of the Believers on this board who mostly seem to be reaching to understand their Faith & the Love of God through Christ Jesus our Lord better. Seems even though we've been a rather contentious lot from time to time, that your heart cares as well. Thank You for letting us see that and see the Love of Jesus in your words. And thank your friend for sharing her wisdom with you... it's a life long lesson to learn on how to stand for Christ & how to embrace those who may have fallen or may be standing on some very unstable cliff edges...

I'm copying all my posts now so I may once again feel free to type like "me"...now isn't that a bit of a sad commentary on what has come about recently on this board. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif Still perhaps, it's been a good lesson for me about pest control...and maybe I should've kept my Raid within easier reach. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

And Jonmoseley, I never came to this board to attack anyone; I came to stand with a friend. In doing so, I have found pain and sorrow and tears...some in me, some in those here, and I expect some in the heart of my friend. But I have always believed that the Love of Jesus is Bigger; and His Truth shines brighter and that there is Healing in His Name. I am not sure who you are. But you are not Jesus...and I'm sad to say so sharply... your words make you a liar. If you have indeed been an avid reader of this board, then you've read story, after story, after story of the pain inflicted upon some of these foks... I cried the first time I read some of their words...and I do not mean the various leaders "sins"...I mean the wounded hearts that should've been safe from harm to find health in the Love of God and safety...did not find it so. The truth of their pain cannot be denied; and I would have them see Jesus & be healed and that the men mentioned as "Leaders" be healed right along with everyone else... But it starts one heart at a time, and the Lord still goes after the one lost Lamb at a time. Even if what you said was "true"...Well, then the 99 Sheep are safely in the fold of EN so why are you trying to beat the one lost lamb??? If you really believe what you are saying, why aren't you helping to free the Lamb & bring him home??? The fact that you seem to prefer accusing a wounded Lamb of attacking the huge flock...seems, oh...ridiculous, and you must know it, so what purpose do you really serve??? Is Jesus Christ your Lord? If He is...then please show Him, because as always, I would see Jesus.

jbkrems

10-28-2006, 10:23 AM

Hey Wildwood:

I'm having server trouble w/FactNet, so that is why all the repeated posts above. Sorry big time. Thank you anyways for your kind words. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

wildwood_

10-28-2006, 10:44 AM

Hey Again Jbk! No problem on double and triple dipping...reading the truth of a heart doesn't get tiring...! Rather a nice blessing. Alas, this is what the server started doing last weekend when many strange things happened... So, who knows what the morning may bring...a beautiful sunrise in Oklahoma I hope!!!

dust

10-28-2006, 02:44 PM

Why is Tithing an ISSUE here?
I don't see the tithing issue as an issue as criteria for any church or EN being a cult. It was certainly NOT the reason we or any of the people we know (our friends) left EN.

Until this past summer, when the tithing debate started with Krems and everyone, I had never thought about it as wrong.
It's true most churches teach tithing. It's also true that stats show that most Christians do NOT tithe. And, tithing is declining.

Only 9% calling themselves Evangelical tithe

The church is growing, and with the advent of a changed economy, (not bartering) the Holy Spirit, and irresponsible pastors, the Body of Christ as a whole is re-evaluating tithing. Many churches teach GIVING but not TITHING. As Christians, we know that 100% our money belongs to God, not 10%, we (in our relationship with HIM) can be directed with everything we give, everything we purchase. This is New Testament thinking!

THE ISSUE ON THE TABLE: Is tithing Cultish, and is tithing one of the issues that makes EN a cult?

ANSWER: No, tithing is not cultish. I do, believe, however, that the membership agreement which calls for a member to SIGN a COVENANT agreeing to give 10% is completely WRONG! Contractual giving is not new testament thinking or living!

Bottom Line: I don't know why TITHING is an issue here one way or the other, outside the of SIGNED AGREEMENT for the 10%.

But, there are plenty of other issues that have put EN on the cult watch.

mcmstaff78

10-28-2006, 02:45 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif Jon, Jon, Jon (Moseley, not Krems) - you are so funny. Man, do you even read what other people write? I know you didn't read the website I posted.

Calling us abusers? Man, that is classic. More and more you demonstrate an irrational co-dependence to an abusive system. As much as I'd like to think that the testimonies of people here have an effect on EN itself, I seriously doubt it does. My hope is that individuals who find their way here would see something that would spark in them the courage to flee the system and find true healing and hope in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Oh, and Jon, you should try to at least respond to the actual position of those who disagree with you and not simply have a knee-jerk reaction to what you think they are. As has been stated before, while there many theologies lend themselves to abusive practices (covering and shepherding being big ones) it is not specifically the theology that makes a system abusive, but the application of that theology. While I may not agree with any organization that teaches tithing as part of the Gospel, there are lots of churches that do which I do not find abusive in that teaching. However, my experience with MCM and similar WoF churches is that the teaching is used in an abusive manner to guilt people into giving.

For me, the controlling scripture in the NT regarding giving is "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." (2Co 9:7)

dust

10-28-2006, 02:46 PM

GIVING IS NOT FOR US TO JUDGE
I have also learned NOT to judge people's giving, only to look at my own giving and be under God's direction. If I AM going to look at other people's giving, I'll MARVEL and REJOICE at all the volunteers giving their time and all the wonderful Christians I see GIVING food, donations etc. to the needy and to build the kingdom. I want to put my eyes on the GOOD things.

We are NOT to put our eyes on what Christians DON'T Do and make judgements on things such as tithing....no who are we to cast those stones. It takes us to a really DARK place in our heart and even if we giving 60% in tithe, I believe it would be cancelled as nothing because we weren't walking in love.

When we take that freedom to judge the giving of other people, we will then, as the church, be playing God, and assume the role of the Holy Spirit. The church is to disciple people as followers of Christ. TRUE followers NEVER have to be cajoled into giving. Giving is an outpouring of love and kindness. A manipulated heart is not the Christian heart.

This kind of rigid law on tithing is a heart that has no trust of the Holy Spirit in the Body of Christ, and cheapens who Christ is and what He has done for us. I've never met a TRUE CHRISTIAN who didn't have a very generous heart; it goes hand in hand.

And at the end of the day, It's God job to deal with each one of us and our heart issues in these matters.

dust

10-28-2006, 02:53 PM

MCM: However, my experience with MCM and similar WoF churches is that the teaching is used in an abusive manner to guilt people into giving.

Dust: I want to be fair. I don't feel we were really manipulated into giving. THE ONE THING, which is huge is that we had to sign in our membership contract that we would give 10%.

No one ever called us to give or approached us in any way. The pastor that was assigned to us, NEVER ONCE discussed tithing with us.

I can honestly say this was NOT the issue for us.

Now, WHAT THEY DID WITH THE MONEY...that's another topic.

I was on the ministry team, was at every meeting and we were never taught to manipulate people for money.

MCM was different. But I'm talking EN. And, I want us to have credibility here. I can only speak for Nashville. I can't talk for other churches.

(Message edited by Dust on October 28, 2006)

mcmstaff78

10-28-2006, 03:26 PM

Gotta love how folks can get little old ladies on social security to give to maintain an extravagant lifestyle. See here (http://tinyurl.com/ya7k3n) for more interesting shanigans regarding use of TBN funds.

(Message edited by mcmstaff78 on October 28, 2006)

dust

10-28-2006, 03:30 PM

EN CONTROLLED OUR GIVING OUTSIDE OF TITHING
Now that I've talked about tithing, I want to address something I would like to see what Mr. Moseley has to say. This is real...it's on video..it's on CD.

We were trained to be cell group leaders, which means we were overlookers of some sheep. We knew more about these particular sheep and their needs than the church leaders.

We were told SPECIFICIALLY: NEVER GIVE ANYONE MONEY It was FORBIDDEN! (in our cell groups)

Well, now what a dilemna this put us in. We would see some very real needs that the church was NOT addressing. Do we meet these needs right in front of us as we believe Christ is calling us to, or do we OBEY our pastors/leaders who have claimed to be our spiritual authority?

What do we DO, Jon Moseley? I want you to answer this.
Their reasoning: In the Phillippines, it is common for people to scam one another...

Their Answer: Let us not teach stupid Americans wisdom and discernment. Let's declare a law of NO GIVING. Tell me this isn't insane and cultish?

ginger1

10-28-2006, 04:40 PM

Jon AS I SAID YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT TF. SO STOP TALKING ABOUT IT !

How about Phil Bonasso KICKING OUT PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY CANNOT TITHE ? DO YOU THINK THATS BIBLICAL ?? OR EVEN CALLING THEM LACK OF FAITH BECAUSE THEY CANNOT TITHE ???

HOW ABOUT TF , COLLECTING THE STUDENTS MONEY FOR HIS OWN SELF , DO YOU THINK THATS BIBLICAL ??

HOW ABOUT TELLING PEOPLE IN THE CHURCH TO CASH IN THEIR 401K FOR EN ??? DO YOU THINK THATS BIBLICAL ??

HOW ABOUT EXPLAINING TO PEOPLE THAT EVEN THOUGH THEY TITHE AND MORE YET THEY DID NOT GET ANY BLESSINGS FROM GOD ???

ginger1

10-28-2006, 04:44 PM

THERE IS A COVER UP ON TF !! STEVE MURRELL ADDRESS THIS ISSUE when Phil Bonasso STEP DOWN.

He said this to the congregation. IT IS SAD THAT THIS HAPPENED TO THIS CHURCH AND IT IS SADDER THAT NOTHING WAS DONE ABOUT IT.

VCF RECEIVED THE FAX, Phillip Rosenthal CAN PRODUCE SEVERAL WITNESSES BUT EN CHOSE TO IGNORE HIM. EN REFUSED TO ROCK THE BOAT its because OF TITHES COMING TO EN !!! ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY !!!

40days40years

10-28-2006, 05:03 PM

Dust about that no giving rule? Maybe they do that because they don't want members getting into the habit of asking for or expecting financial help? Also it sets a bad precedent and makes the leaders look bad when the sheep figure out that some people give and some won't.

I remember visiting a WOF church once where the guy from the pulpit said don't come to me if you have trouble paying your mortgage or bills, have faith. Ofcourse these same guys expect tithes and offerings to come in. I thought, ohhh so that's the way it is, note to self they won't be there for you so make provisions for that.

dust

10-28-2006, 06:06 PM

40, All I know is this. I have the Spirit of Christ inside of me. I am born again, and I don't need PERMISSION to meet a need financially that is right in front of me and I don't need some man living in a mansion with five cars in the driveway telling me I can't give money to a woman to get her car fixed so she can get to work!

Sorry if that sounds bitter...it works me up on a number of levels!

And, you know what else.....these people we helped never ASKED us for help. We should all be HELPING EACH OTHER DIRECTLY.
How about that old book of ACTS!

P.S. I didn't experience what Ginger did, but I don't doubt her for one minute.

sameo

10-28-2006, 06:36 PM

AMEN DUST!!! giving YOU permission, or prohibiting you- to do anything you choose(with YOUR money) sounds like some of that control we've been talking about. That's just sick.

40days40years

10-28-2006, 06:39 PM

I agree Dust it is your money. This ministry also does not want to attract needy people since they are going to be taking up resources. Did this happen in the states?

dust

10-28-2006, 06:59 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/angry.gif
That's my answer

ulyankee

10-28-2006, 07:05 PM

The E412 strategy teaches -

--no giving/borrowing money within discipleship groups
--no taking up tithes and offerings within discipleship groups

("discipleship groups" means BOTH outreach and leadership groups)

This is both in the E412 strategy audio/video as well as in the Making Disciples book.

I can understand the second point, since a controversial practice in the original Shepherding movement is that disciplers would extract tithes from those they discipled. I can also understand being careful and not being taken advantage of.

But what if someone truly has a need, and someone else is led of the LORD to provide that need?

40/40, I have other audio that illustrates your point within the North American branch of EN in particular - where the emphasis is on attracting and training leaders in the corporate, political, and military realms - specifically through bringing them into MSI/EN, not just the church in general. This is their mandate, mantle, and destiny. There was talk of MSI/EN owned corporations, sports teams, etc. And MSI/EN discipled politicians, including the US President.

(Message edited by ulyankee on October 28, 2006)

dust

10-28-2006, 07:06 PM

Sorry for that...I"m really wanting to be a postive light, but flashbacks to things not Christ bring that out in me,

Well let me make it up...instead of casting stones, here are some great lyrics that have blessed by life from Casting Crowns:

LifeSong
Empty Hands held high
Such Small sacrifice
If not joined with my life
I sing in vain tonight

May the words I say
And the things I do
Make my lifesong sing
Bring a smile to you
Chorus:
Let my lifesong sing to You
Let my lifesong sing to You
I want to sign your name
to the end of this day
Knowing that my heart was true
Let my lifesong sing to You

Lord, I give my life
A Living sacrifice
To reach a world in need
To be your hands and feet

So may the words I say
And the things I do
Make my lifesong sing
Bring a smile to you

Chorus

Hallelujah, Hallelujah,
Let my lifesong sing to You

jonmoseley

10-28-2006, 07:14 PM

This thread was about settling some issues, and removing them from the table.

However, when faced with an opportunity to admit that some of your vicious attacks upon Every Nation -- visible to 1 billion people around the planet and NOT a private conversation at all -- can be taken off the table, instead you want to bend over backwards to find a FALSE opportunity to attack a church.

ADMIT IT: Whether you agree with the idea personally or not, there is NOTHING wrong with Every Nation -- like the vast majority of churches across America -- teaching what the Bible teaches, that we are obligated to tithe.

Many of you have continually attacked MCM and EN as being cultish, and the #1 most frequent, recurring criticism -- back to the 1985 Wall Street Journal article and all else surrounding MCM -- is that MCM asked members to give 10%. The deceitful liars attacking that church NEGLECTED TO INFORM THE CASUAL READER that this was a Bible-based doctrine widely accepted throughout Church history, and almost universally accepted as correct.

Y'all here have repeated that false attack.

I asked if we could agree that certain issues were NOT part of your complaints about Every Nation now.

Y'all responded by REFUSING and wanting to CONTINUE ATTACKING EN because it teaches what the Bible teaches about tithing.

The discussion was NEVER about you or whether your giving is satisfactory.

The discussion was about YOUR ATTACKS against Every Nation, as being cultish, illegitimate, strange, or weird because it teaches what the Bible teaches.

I made it clear that YOU ARE THE ONES who fit the definition of YOUR OWN ATTACK UPON OTHERS.

Have you not read BY THE MEASURE YOU USE IT WILL BE MEASURED UNTO YOU?

Have you not read that you will be judged by your own words?

Measuring the matter BY YOUR OWN STANDARDS it is YOU who are guilty of what YOU accuse, and EN that is innocent under your own standards.

YOU FALL GUILTY UNDER YOUR OWN STANDARDS.

You fail your own test.

Now, having been exposed as not only wrong, but knowingly deceitful and filled with hatred, so that you cannot agree THAT EVEN ONE THING about EN could be okay, you once again try to CHANGE YOUR STORY.

It was y'all who repeatedly attacked MCM and by extension EN for -- horrors -- teaching that members should give 10% to the church.

Now, having been caught red-handed faking up another attack on a church, you try to change the subject to other forms of giving. Now, you want to talk about giving beyond the tithe. But that was not your attack.

Once again, I saw nothing like anything you describe. Given your track record of STRETCHING to find ways to hate a church, excuse me if I am doubtful.

ALSO... unable to confront truth and reality, y'all continually want to hide behind the fantasy that I am attached to a church THAT I HAVE PERSONALLY REJECTED and no longer attend.

I stand for truth, not for anyone. I take no sides. I have told you how to go to the FBI and file a criminal complaint against Phil Bonassso, if you really have evidence to back it up.

I am on no one's side... except truth.

(Message edited by JonMoseley on October 28, 2006)

40days40years

10-28-2006, 07:14 PM

--no giving/borrowing money within discipleship groups

When you think about it how can it be a discipleship group then?

40days40years

10-28-2006, 07:19 PM

As far as: There was talk of MSI/EN owned corporations, sports teams, etc. And MSI/EN discipled politicians, including the US President.

How far can they take this until they lose their tax exempt status? If the IRS determines a church is really a business then there could be trouble.

jonmoseley

10-28-2006, 07:25 PM

SAMEO wrote: AMEN DUST!!! giving YOU permission, or prohibiting you- to do anything you choose(with YOUR money) sounds like some of that control we've been talking about. That's just sick.

MOSELEY responding: And what if the Bible and/or God command you to do something. Is that "sick" in your view? Do you now set yourself up as God? Do you recognize any authority other than yourself?

sameo

10-28-2006, 07:35 PM

Well, I remember quite well because I went hungry that week...a message BOb W preached in paducah about tithing....he was encouraging us to not just settle for giving 10% but dare to give 20, or 30....or more...to "Go beyond what god expects..." for an even greater blessing. His message was if we are struggling with financial needs thats the time to step up our faith and give out of our need. (DO NOT DARE CALL ME A LIAR!!!) because I gave my entire paycheck based on that message...out of pressure and guilt....and I went without food that week. One gracious sister came up to me one day...when I was fighting hunger...and said she believed the Lord wanted her to invite me home for lunch. We had tuna melts with cheese broiled on top. The best lunch I've ever eaten. NOw that was over 20 years ago, and I remember her lunch...what we ate, what her kitchen looked like...because I was in need that day. I was HUNGRY....because I gave my paycheck up. DO i believe God asked that of me? no, because I needed to pay rent...and buy groceries. God expects us to be responsible. I gave completely out of the pressure from his message. HE was always encouraging us to give over and beyond...now that is the truth. Give out of faith...and for most it really was stepping out in faith...college students who only had their parents money. I was giving MY parents money away...tell me BOB W wasn't smart enough to know this? why the sororitiy and fraternity kids? perhaps they would have more of their parents money to give? I'm not accusing, am merely questioning....wondering. I didn't question back then, just blindly swallowed.(b/c I was a young, naive, gullible kid)As a grown adult,(or as a kid) It's perfectly acceptable and I have every right to question...and get an answer. Without being yelled at and falsely accused.

mdillon

10-28-2006, 07:40 PM

to one jon moseley,

I'll tell you what is sick in God's view is cowards like you who are so afraid of Truth and choose to come and flame away while ignoring the obvious. Are you getting a stipend from Ricey? I know its not Phil. Why don't you go back and respond to Miltie's post on the butchering wolves? Are you****ed that YOU could never be an MCM pastor? Do you have Manipulation and Control envy?

****ants have their place in the Lake 'o Fire. There...a lil' of your own medicine?

Just thank God I'm being nice

dilly

40days40years

10-28-2006, 07:55 PM

Dust did say that she was told: We were told SPECIFICIALLY: NEVER GIVE ANYONE MONEY It was FORBIDDEN! (in our cell groups)

40: And of course if you do help someone out then your rebelling against authority. In MCM they were pretty good with word games. Let's say that lady needed her car fixed? Obviously they are saying don't help her but I guess you could technically put the bill for the repair onto your credit card and then technically you could say I did not hand her money. When there were rules set up to keep Maranatha in check guys like Bob and Rice and the others would do mental gymnastics like that to do what they wanted I bet if Rice had someone he wanted to help he would help them but he is the boss and gets to answer to himself. Ofcourse dust should have never been put into that situation.

jonmoseley

10-28-2006, 07:55 PM

Cowards like me? Maybe M Dillon is your real name, but almost everyone else has hid in the shadows making unbiblical attacks on a church that preaches Jesus' gospel using ANONYMOUS names. I have hidden nothing, but proudly identify myself, warts and all. Then those posting anonymously began to investigate me and run my history in the most creepy fashion I have seen.

What I see here is THAT IT IS YOU WHO ARE THE WOLVES. You are knowingly lying, even when given the opportunity to correct your statements.

You are attacking the work of Jesus' Kingdom and the spread of His gospel using falsehoods, deceit, and deceitful spin and rhetoric.

As I see it, YOU ON THIS BOARD ARE THE WOLVES AMONG THE SHEEP.

And I suspect some of you always were.

Remmeber: MCM has not existed for 16 years!

annelewis

10-28-2006, 08:08 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

You are attacking the work of Jesus' Kingdom and the spread of His gospel using falsehoods, deceit, and deceitful spin and rhetoric.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

uhh....

mdillon

10-28-2006, 08:22 PM

Maybe M Dillon is your real name

let me give you all of it:

Mark Lee Dillon
Columbia, Tennessee

as a matter of fact, sneak over to EN Blog and pull up the link to Matt Hatter's Blog and scroll down just a tad until you see a pic of Miltie, Hatter, and Dilly. I am the one to the far right....yeah, that's my ugly mug...now look right into my eyes when I tell you this....

I have crapped bigger religious spirits than you.

I'm so sorry you didn't make pastor. You could have had a megachurch by now.

Mark Lee Dillon with apologies to my friends here

sameo

10-28-2006, 08:44 PM

Moseley: I never said I do not obey God, nor did I say that Dust or myself do not tithe. Don't take my words, or her's, and TWIST them. I was agreeing with her that I don't believe I need to have someone tell me specifically how to deligate my money.(or hear from God) To the best of my knowledge MCM leaders and EN leaders name's aren't in the Bible. I have the right to choose whether to follow them.(as my spiritual covering) I choose not to. So just because I don't happen to agree theologically with them...doesn't mean I am choosing to disobey GOD!! or that i in fact, AM disobeying God. tsk...

also, i feel no pressure at all to reveal my name online...especially being a woman. The first thing my kids said to me is Mom, DON't give out your real name online!! (Alot of weirdo's out there) Oh, but dilly, am not worried about you-i know you can hold your own. I'm just sayin'...

dust

10-28-2006, 09:37 PM

ANd, here's the very REAL situation. A sweet lady with NO car needed to take the bus to her membership appointment and the buses don't run that late in brentwood. She called the church three times desperate to get her appointment. They wouldn't find her a ride home for the Thursday night she needed to be there. Then she called me because she had my business card for a year in her wallet. I said naively, "use my name in the office, they'll help. " Well that went nowhere!

She called back again in tears thinking she was not going to be accepted into membership. So I called them. I explained. This woman just got out of BATTERED WOMAN"S SHELTER. She has NO car. She takes buses all the way to Bethel, when she could walk to the corner church. Can a pastor just meet her on Sunday to interview her. She wants to be a member. Sidenote: She was already a full fledged member of another EN church in Murfreesboro but had to move to Nashville and that membership didn't count. Talk about white washed tombs!

Office Answer: " She can't have God on her terms." What, was my reply, she has no car." Answer: "Well, she was the one that caused her own train wreck."

I was out shopping on my cell phone, nearly threw up...drove home, crying hard and yelling to God. "God, Please do something about this. She is YOUR child." The biggest heart ache for me....this was NOT an unusual case...it was just piling up. This was the way it was! I get home and I kid you not....one of my cell members called and said, God wanted them to do a good deed. I nearly fell over. You guessed it...she went and picked her up. I happened to be doing interviews with the pastors that night she showed up. She was in my interview. She ended up in my cell group. God was looking out for her, because Forword gave her a car (although old) just to get her through.

Moselely You are the one that has been warned. My conscience is very clean. I have the bloody rags in my memory just enough not to FORGET when WOLVES like you come at me with a lying mouth.

You are the coward. You didn't answer my direct question.

Don't make me bring more bloody rags out of the closet! I'm not afraid of you or anyone in EN. Don't agitate me to start a blog where Tik leaves off. God is not going to let this junk just get swept under some fluffly carpet.

Truthfully, Moselely, you are EN's worst nightmare!

dust

10-28-2006, 09:52 PM

Jon Moseley

You say we're liars because you didn't witness it. First of all you're a lawyer and that gets different treatment. Sounds to me like you wouldn't have to take a bus to church.

I think I'm foolish to talk to you, but I'm not really talking to you, I'm hoping some EN members are reading, and they will decide for themself who has a heart for Jesus Christ and who is a white washed tomb. The Spirit testifies, and I count on that.

I'll stand right now before God and you and EN and whoever else wants to be there!

mcmstaff78

10-28-2006, 09:56 PM

Dust, what you present is the very epitome of what Jesus was talking about when, in Matthew, He said "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:41-46)

Also,

"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."(Mat 7:18-21)

40days40years

10-28-2006, 10:02 PM

One thing Jon keeps on saying is that this type of stuff is an isolated incident in an isolated church, all the churches are not the same blah, blah, blah. But the question for Jon is what about when this stuff is happening at the flag ship church run by the most powerful man in the ministry? What then? How can it be just a bad apple and not be systemic throughout the movement?

dust

10-28-2006, 10:11 PM

MCM: a short story regarding those verses:

First year of our marriage; One night in our new (old) city neighborhood a young man on a bike came to our door. He was in early 20's, and it was Sunday night, I remember, and forword answers. The man said, I'm hungry and God told me this house would feed me. Forword gave him some money. He wanted money to go to mrs. winners.

Well the "yuck" in me rose up..How could you do that.....he'll be back and you travel a lot...I'm scared..I'll be here alone...there's a lot of old ladies in the neighborhood..And I was SCREAMING MAD. "Don't ever do that again." My husband remained very calm and just went and got me a bible and showed me the exact same mat 25.

I just burst into tears and I repented and I realized how much fear had devoured the spirit of Christ in me, and from that moment on, I determined it wasn't going to happen again.

Forword looked around.,,.that young man was no where to be found..he wasn't canvassing the neighorhood; he said He KNEW God sent him to our door. (well Forword's door, not my door).

And this was RIGHT BEFORE we joined EN, Maybe it was God's preparation of my heart.

mcmstaff78

10-29-2006, 02:20 AM

Dust - this is a countless temptation, to allow "wisdom" to consume compassion. Let us pray compassion wins out the majority of the time, especially when it is supposed to!

miltietoast

10-29-2006, 06:04 AM

dust-- if you had told the church office that the lady's jag was in the shop and she needed a lift you might have gotton a response----just guessing

jonmoseley

10-29-2006, 06:17 AM

TO ALL ABOVE: Your poor listening skills cause you to repeatedly respond to ideas totally unrelated to what I (or others) have actually said.

This confirms my understanding that you "heard" things in MCM and/or EN THAT NOBODY EVER SAID and failed to hear what was said. THat is a result of emotions of fear or insecurity, and can occur even in extremely intelligent people, and because it requires creativity of the fearful mind perhaps even more so with smart people.

But we can see demonstrated right here on this Board that you are poor listeners and unable to separate out your own predispositions and emotional hyperactivity from what is actually being discussed.

TO SAMEO: I never said that you did not obey God. CAN YOU GET OVER YOURSELF for a minute?

You made a comment about what is GENERALLY true in your view -- that nobody should tell anybody what to do with their money (in my words).

You called it "sick" for a church to tell you what to do with your money.

I asked you if that "anybody" (as I paraphrase it) INCLUDES (a) GOD or (b) THE BIBLE.

Do you say that it is "sick" for God to tell you what to do with your money? Or the Bible?

BUT WE ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT THEORY.

AND I AM *ASKING* *YOU* *QUESTIONS* !!!!

I asked you the QUESTION.

TO which you flipped out, once again (y'all), and said I accused you of disobeying God.

I ASKED YOU THE *QUESTION* whether or not you consider it "sick" for God and/or the Bible to tell you what to do with your money.

IT IS A QUESTION. Appropriate responses are "yes" or "no" or possibly "let's discuss that."

Since it is a question I DO NOT KNOW THE ANSWER, and I am NOT saying you have or have not obeyed God... nor, frankly, do I give a whit whether you do or don't. I do care if you tar CHristians in general with false accusations because they teach tithing. But if you don't want to tithe, knock yourselves out. I don't care. That's between you and God. (By contrast, accusations on a PUBLIC board visible to 1 billion people worldwide is not between you and God.)

DUST: I have no idea what you are referring to, but your style of argumentation (not you, but all of you complainers) is so thoroughly familiar to me as the dishonest spin of politicians and sleazy lawyers in court.

THE TOPIC AT HAND is whether or not we can take off the table any (false) accusation that EN is illegitimate, strange, weird, cultish, or unacceptable as a church because it teaches the tithe.

In reply you flip-flop around like a freshly-landed fish on a dock talking about everything ELSE BUT the topic.

You refuse to admit that your accusation against EN about tithing is FALSE.

If you want to make all kinds of OTHER accusations, fine. Let's discuss those one at a time, in an organized fashion.

By so desparately wanting to change the subject away from the topic YOU IMPLICITLY ADMIT MY POINT, in my mind. You are UNABLE TO DEFEND your accausations about EN and tithing. You fervently want to CHANGE THE SUBJECT away from that topic. So we must take it as ESTABLISHED that there is nothing wrong with EN's teachings about the tithe, and your accusations were and are false.

But the disordered thoughts that I see here indicate to me that you probably never understood what was going on in Maranatha or Every Nation. AND THAT IS NOT A COMMENT ON INTELLIGENCE BUT *EMOTIONAL* STATE. A person who is AFRAID and INSECURE will "hear" all sorts of things that were never said, acting out of that fear.

jbkrems

10-29-2006, 06:35 AM

Jon Moseley: I'm responding to you again because I see you berating some of those who post here on these Discussion Boards.

You said to Dust: "your style of argumentation (not you, but all of you complainers) is so thoroughly familiar to me as the dishonest spin of politicians and sleazy lawyers in court." PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE - stop the personal attacks. Its not that I necessarily agree with those who post on this Board, but I think your tactics and the way you are relating to people here is VERY un-Christian and un-Christ like. I do not see you coming across as a loving person.

If you'd like to discuss this with me personally, please send me an instant message on AOL Instant Messenger (AIM) at jbkforchrist.

Thanks. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

jonmoseley

10-29-2006, 07:36 AM

I have never instant messengered in my life, and I see no incentive to start now.

No, you have it entirely backwards and I will not accept such dishonest argumentation nor those who are so gullible as to be taken in by it.

This entire board is smear, attack, accuse,slander...

... and then when people are called on it, they scream like stuck pigs.

These people attack, slander, and accuse -- all unbiblically and anonymously -- and then are horrified that anyone actually question their statments, their message, or their motivation.

The situation is that all men must bow to their wisdom and pass under their judgment, but they are never to be questioned. Such an attitude is a balloon that needs to be burst.

This is exactly the dishonest, deceitful style of argumentation so common among those seeking to advance a lie rather than to find the truth.

A heart seeking the truth does not act that way.

A heart seeking to avoid the truth does.

Let's look at the body count.

The fine upstanding former Christians on this Board have --

1) Accused Phil Bonasso of being a thief, which is a serious crime.

2) Accused EN of covering up crimes, which is also a crime of conspiracy or an accessory.

3) Accused a church of being a cult and/or illegitimate for reasons that crumble when examined.

4) Accused EN of being a cult, or illegitimate, strange or weird as a church for having the same views about the trinity that every other church in the Kingdom shares. And yet when called on this, they refuse to repent or admit their wrong, but continue this false lie.

5) Accused EN of being a cult, or illegitimate, strange or weird as a church for having the same views about tithing that every other church in the Kingdom shares. And yet when called on this, they refuse to repent or admit their wrong, but continue this false lie.

6) Asscuse jbkrems of heresy, when in fact their positions are minority and strange perspectives within the body of Christ.

7) Accused EN of heresy, when in fact their own positions are minority and strange perspectives within the body of Christ.

8) Accused EN of greed and personal profiteering.

Every word that is written on this Board and every meaning breathed through it reeks of the most outrageous -- and false -- accusations and slander by the complainers on this Board.

AND THEN HOW DARE ANYONE CALL THEM ON THEIR WRONG?

Such is the dishonest mind and the deceitful heart that they engage in slander and attacks, and then freak out when they are opposed.

jbkrems

10-29-2006, 07:57 AM

Jon Moseley: If you do not wish to instant message me, I can understand that. If you wish to discuss something with me privately, you can e-mail me at jkrems.stu@okcu.edu

I am NOT as gullible as you might think I am. Just because I disagree with your tactics, Jon, does not mean I agree with the people here. Quite frankly, I DISAGREE with most of what I see here. Its wrong to attack. And you're ALSO wrong to attack as well, personally, those who post here.

Again, feel free to e-mail me privately to discuss this further, at jkrems.stu@okcu.edu

ginger1

10-29-2006, 08:29 AM

JBkrem, as you can see, The reason why Jon Mosley attack people here is because he is a Maranatha/EN material. That is exactly the by product of MCM.

ginger1

10-29-2006, 08:48 AM

Jon, just to keep you in the loop. I spoken with the EN Board in the past.

Leo Lawson was going from one MSI church to another teaching HERESY and weird things, but Nobody dared to stop him for several years. Until Leo preach IN FRONT OF STEVE MURRELL. THEN he got Fired right on the spot.

Jon, your IGNORANCE and PRIDE amazes me, it just has NO BOUNDS. I do not know who is supplying you info in EN, must be a bottom feeder. If I were you, I stop listening to that bottom feeder.

(Message edited by ginger1 on October 29, 2006)

jbkrems

10-29-2006, 08:54 AM

Ginger: I don't think that just because Jon has come out of Maranatha/EN, and is a product thereof, that he attacks people. I think it is something deeper than that.

ginger1

10-29-2006, 09:02 AM

JBkrem, let me give you an example of what Leo Lawson did. Now, Leo Lawson was hired by Phil Bonasso, Phil brought him in to MSI.

Now, if you got born again in another church, like WoF and you joined MSI, Leo would tell you that you ARE NOT REALLY A CHRISTIAN and you HAVE TO RENOUNCED CHRIST THEN get Re-born-again, AGAIN in MSI.

Tell me, whats wrong with that picture ?

And Since Leo lawson WAS considered a TEACHER in MSI. He has the student "practicing " casting out demons and sending it into a small box in the room. There is a box in the room by the way.
And the "demon" as they believe is TRAP in the box.

Oh , he has done more notorious things. The two examples are lame compare to what I heard him done.
Some on tape.

Jon, in case you are wondering the EN board knows the two above examples I posted.

ginger1

10-29-2006, 09:08 AM

JBkrem, Deeper ? my guess living in denial ? I know a lot of people like that, eventually they woke up though. They have made Phil Bonasso their idol who can do no wrong, until they woke up about the building and the building funds. ITS GONE !!!

And I have been telling them that for two years ?

jbkrems

10-29-2006, 09:17 AM

Ginger:

I'm not denying what you say --- quite frankly those practices that you describe of Leo Lawson are flakey and wrong.

However, that's not what I am saying here. Quite frankly, I think both you and some of the others here on the boards have some honest things to say, and so does Jon Moseley. Its the manner in which you guys are attacking each other like vultures that concerns me, esp. the personal attacks that Jon Moseley is making, although in substance what he says is often true.

I don't know if Jon Moseley is living in denial. I want to know, honestly, what his church background is, whether he still is at Bethel or wherever, and if not, what church he goes to. I want to get to know him personally, as I have some others here. That's why I keep on inviting him to e-mail or otherwise contact me, OFF the board.

wildwood_

10-29-2006, 09:25 AM

Well, jonwhoeveryouhappentobetonight, If you really are going to hold up a mirror to the posters here...you should always remember to hold it a bit to one side…because the only poster here reflected in that mirror is well, YOU...Dustie's many wonderful things and absolutely none of these: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

your style of argumentation...so thoroughly familiar to me as the dishonest spin of politicians and sleazy lawyers in court.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> But your words sure capture your reflection...at least in how you've posted on this board. Opps. Handling the Exhibits is always fraught with mishaps isn't it. Perhaps, next time a small hand held mirror would be best, the big dressing room style mirror that you brought in also failed to catch a glimpse of anyone but your most unbecoming angles: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

...the disordered thoughts that I see here indicate to me that you probably never understood what was going on in Maranatha or Every Nation. AND THAT IS NOT A COMMENT ON INTELLIGENCE BUT *EMOTIONAL* STATE. A person who is AFRAID and INSECURE will "hear" all sorts of things that were never said, acting out of that fear.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Well said, Mr Moseley, I couldn't have said it better myself...your Fear, Your Disordered Thoughts and Your Insecurities have caused you to read all sorts of things that were never said instead reading the words and the hearts of those who posted here in explanation to you.

This is not a Court and You are not here as a Judge or as an Attorney. You are a fellow traveler with us...as we all seek to know Our Savior better. This is not about a Trial...It is Souls and Hearts and Relationships within the body of Christ.... perhaps, you could have come to heal and to bind old wounds, and unite hearts to prayer. But you came not to find real Truth; You came to win your points, to play the game. Only it's not a game to most of the Souls here. JBKrems will be a most excellent Lawyer; He seeks Truth and Offers a Mercy that only a sinner knows...PTL. Sadly, you seem to represent the worst in your profession: Lawyers want to win and serve Justice, the blind idol of their foolish pride in the law of man. Again, This is not a trial or a deposition or any matter for debate--And you demand to cross-examine issues and not see the inner hearts. I feel no reality from you, no Soul kneeling at the Cross for Mercy or praising their Redeemer for God's Grace through the blood of the Lamb. I see an entity that wants to be told it is "Right". That's all you want.

How truly sad for you. But you came not to find real Truth; You came to pick a fight, but there's none here who want to fight. There are many here who want to see wholeness, healing and restoration by the Grace & Mercy of Jesus Christ. One by One each of those seeking will find that door opened and that prayer answered.

You will walk away having found nothing, because you've sought nothing. You just typed to be heard. You have been heard. And you do not sound like Jesus, and I seriously doubt that the current Leadership of EN would welcome finding you as their Voice.

When they are ready to speak; I'm sure they know how and will. And again, my continued prayer is for some divine miracle of understanding and Grace and Mercy so that All May walk in the assurance of the Abundant Joy in Jesus Christ. A Joy that you could chose to walk in right now...if you lay aside your own bitterness and seek the Truth--and seek Jesus

wildwood_

10-29-2006, 09:39 AM

Hi Jonathon (JBK) and Ginger! Yes, I should be asleep but thought I'd check on the board...and so well...

JBK, thank you again for your stand for the believers here. It's amazing how well you've come to know hearts even in the middle of a bit heated and at times frustrating doctrinal issues... But we do all agree on one thing: The Love of God through Christ Jesus Our Lord. And that's a Joy that no man may steal from us! We Love Him; But He loved us first & came looking and we were found!

Hi Ginger, I'm sorry you have to keep reposting about things that you'd addressed long long ago. It saddens me to hear about Leo but my heart still hold much hope for my friend...who did most certainly Love Jesus with a True heart. There's much I've never understood, and I've felt a bit called "not" to try to understand...but to pray and to wait and to learn what the Lord would teach me through the time I post here. Thank you for your continued direct-speak in a manner that forces truth out into the bright daylight... there's healing there...away from the worries of night shadows...Jesus is Brighter than the Morning Sun and I truly believe: He will finish the good work that He has begun (not man's...man's will fall every single time...but the Lord's endures the fire.).

Blessings on you both tonight if you continue to try and egage a person that I'm not sure is "real": He seems an idea, a concept, but is he a man whose heart belongs to the Living Savior??? I do not know. And I repeat again to Him--I would see Jesus.

ginger1

10-29-2006, 11:49 PM

Wildwood , there was a time when even Tony Fetchel has the right heart. Until Phil Bonasso and Jim lafoon got hold of him and start to mess him up theologically and mentally. My guess thats exactly the same thing happened to Leo Lawson.

By the way, Jon. I got a tape here , Leo Lawson said that Jesus VICTORY CAME FROM THE WILDERNESS NOT ON THE CROSS.

JBK is that a heresy ?

jbkrems

10-30-2006, 12:27 AM

Ginger:

It is not a heresy, but I would have to hear the actual teaching, and not just your description.

maranatha1984

10-30-2006, 01:17 AM

THIS IS LIKE GODZILLA VS KING KONG- JBK vs Jon Mosely:
FLAMER vs FLAMER the match up of the century

Ginger: Leo was an apostate heretic

pisteuo

10-30-2006, 02:03 AM

Earlier Jon Mosley wrote:

By the way, all the talk about bunnies reminds me of gardening. MOST of the situations for tithing involved what people GREW ON THEIR OWN LAND, in their own garden, or births among their own cattle.

So it is clear that tithing involves gross, not net. We are commanded to tithe on EVEN what grows in your own garden... not just what people pay you. AND NOT what is left over from your garden AFTER YOU HAVE EATEN (net).

I recall that the Old Testament required a person to tithe on the INCREASE of their land....or the increase of their cattle, etc. N other words, what was harvested or born.

If a man sowed seed on 1 acre of land then harvested that 1 acre, he would tithe on the harvest of that 1 acre. Simple enough. If he sowed seed on 1 acre and a drought came, or a band of locust came, and the harvest was LESS than normal (ie: thief stole some of the harvest)then the farmer would tithe off what he harvested after the destruction, etc.

One could justifiably say that taxes are much like a thief who steals a part of the harvest. Therefore, even though we work 40 hours this week (sow seed for 1 acre of land) the pay is less because of the thief who taxes the labor (harvest is smaller than expected because some was not able to be harvested). The tithe comes from what was harvested NOT WHAT WAS SOWN.

In this scenario, one would need to tithe off the tax return since this was a return of a stolen harvest.

Just something to think about.....

dust

10-30-2006, 02:16 AM

To JON MOSELEY

You said: You refuse to admit that your accusation against EN about tithing is FALSE.

I have at least twice in responding to you agreed TITHING is NOT the cult issue on the table.

And you repeatedly attack me. I did NOT leave EN because of tithing.

I most surely had an issue with a church telling me what to do with the remainder of my money and for a church to tell me that I am FORBIDDEN from giving money to other church members as an offering. That will NEVER square with the bible. If it does show me. Give me scriptures that will show me that as a member of a church a pastor can tell me what to do with the remaining 90% of my money. SHOW ME.

You come off like a big man, that you are representing God. I'm going to contact Every Nation myself and see if you are representing them. And, if you are, are you representing them as an attorney. I will find out.

(Message edited by dust on October 29, 2006)

coppertree

10-30-2006, 02:41 AM

Hi Dust,
You know that I have wondered that before, Kerms, Standfast, Moseley, all lawyers and on the attack, and a trial in the works. Let us not forget the day... Thank you.}

sameo

10-30-2006, 02:55 AM

Yes, Dust, it appears he took your words on tithing and twisted them...making it sound as though you said something entirely different than what you actually did. I had NO problem understanding where you were coming from. (read Annes Teachings/Bible/Practices thread.)

JonMoseley is using his lawyer tactics. The ol' "don't defend, but ATTACK" method. And I would like some of our questions to you answered for a change, Counselor.

dust

10-30-2006, 03:20 AM

thanks Sameo,
For a minute I was thinking am I crazy.... I DIDN"T say that! And, Anne hit it on the head with Mrs. Huthinson's trial.

another_brick_in_the_wall

10-30-2006, 05:25 PM

i don't know if the poster known as jonmoseley is a lawyer or not. he does a pitiful job with twisting facts to create fiction. he comes across as being a tyrannical, spoiled 2-year old brat in his logic and presentation.

for any type of case regarding defamation or libel, the plaintiff needs to present evidence that proves the defendant is incorrect in their statements.

as long as the defendant concedes that their statements of history and conduct are presented in truth, the plaintiff has high bar to determine otherwise.

to the posters on the board: with discussions between jonmoseley (or any other gopher-lawyer that pops up on this board) - you simply need to reaffirm that your observance, experience, research and history are presented in truth.

simply state the truth.

another_brick_in_the_wall

10-30-2006, 05:32 PM

to jonmoseley and readers of this board:

i affirm that my past postings depicting personal experiences, history and observations relating to Morning Star Intl / Every Nation Churches are true.

-brick

another_brick_in_the_wall

10-30-2006, 05:41 PM

jonmoseley wrote:
"This entire board is smear, attack, accuse,slander..."

also, jonm wrote:
"These people attack, slander, and accuse -- all unbiblically and anonymously -- and then are horrified that anyone actually question their statments, their message, or their motivation."

my response: a good lawyer understands the difference between the definition of libel and slander. slander is defined by means of oral communication. this forum would not constitute oral communication.

all that a poster on this forum needs to do is to present their experiences in truth.

the third party (reader) is left to judge for themselves after reading the presentation both sides of the argument for/against the past practices of MSI/EN.

jonm: you need to present your argument in logical form to where it counters the past experiences posted on this forum. if you are a lawyer, then you will have no trouble defending EN and their actions toward the former/current members.

(Message edited by another brick in the wall on October 30, 2006)

sameo

10-30-2006, 06:01 PM

"he comes across as being a tyrannical, 2 year old brat in his logic and presentation."

Wow--NOW JUST who does that sound like?

matt_hatter

10-30-2006, 11:07 PM

Mose, you seem to be one who is big on transparency, anyone who looks at my blog can identify me. What about you? You seem to be awfully close to the Weiner clan. Care to elaborate?

coppertree

10-30-2006, 11:09 PM

Hi Brick-
Thank you for your encouragement!! We live to fight odd doctrines another day. I think that, is what the Word says to do.}

ginger1

10-31-2006, 04:20 PM

Krem I am going to email you. Anyway, my email is anniegrey@msn.com

forword

11-03-2006, 08:00 AM

My father was a lawyer. I remember him saying "If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the facts are not on your side, pound on the table."

Jon Mosley is doing a lot of table pounding.

forword

11-03-2006, 08:07 AM

The fine upstanding former Christians on this Board have --

1) Accused Phil Bonasso of being a thief, which is a serious crime.
fact

2) Accused EN of covering up crimes, which is also a crime of conspiracy or an accessory.
Fact

3) Accused a church of being a cult and/or illegitimate for reasons that crumble when examined.
EN fits the definition of a sociological cult

4) Accused EN of being a cult, or illegitimate, strange or weird as a church for having the same views about the trinity that every other church in the Kingdom shares. And yet when called on this, they refuse to repent or admit their wrong, but continue this false lie.
Can you not read?!?

5) Accused EN of being a cult, or illegitimate, strange or weird as a church for having the same views about tithing that every other church in the Kingdom shares. And yet when called on this, they refuse to repent or admit their wrong, but continue this false lie.
Once again, you obviously did not read Dust post

6) Asscuse jbkrems of heresy, when in fact their positions are minority and strange perspectives within the body of Christ.
not touching this one

7) Accused EN of heresy, when in fact their own positions are minority and strange perspectives within the body of Christ.
What are you talking about? Be specific

8) Accused EN of greed and personal profiteering.
Obviously TRUE

forword

11-03-2006, 03:50 PM

I should have noted that I was quoting Jon Moseley in the 1-8 list above and made my comments on each item in Bold. And, the reason for saying I was not touching #6 was this horse has been beat to death already. (I think it is Relient K that wrote a song titled "The only thing worse than beating a dead horse is getting on one")

I should not have made the above post. It was made out of frustration late at night when I was having trouble sleeping. I don't see any of the dialog, if you can call it that, with Jon Moseley as beneficial. He obviously has an axe to grind.

Over and out

forword

11-03-2006, 03:57 PM

di•a•logue (also di•a•log)
noun
• a discussion between two or more people or groups, esp. one directed toward exploration of a particular subject or resolution of a problem : the U.S. would enter into a direct dialogue with Vietnam | interfaith dialogue.
verb [ intrans. ]

•take part in a conversation or discussion to resolve a problem : he stated that he wasn't going to dialogue with the guerrillas.
• [ trans. ] provide (a movie or play) with a dialogue.

sameo

11-03-2006, 04:40 PM

thanks forward,you made some good and valid points! i appreciate it!

matt_hatter

11-03-2006, 04:59 PM

"I should not have made the above post."

I must kindly disagree. The dialogue extends far beyond mosely. Many people lurking need to read your thoughts. I would agree that talking to him is like talking to a fence post, but he does become that EN pawn for others to counteract. And you did a good job at that!

flo1151

11-03-2006, 11:58 PM

I have always liked beating a dead horse. It is a lot like smashing those old cars at fundraisers with a sledgehammer. It is a good stress reliever. Here I go crapping on this thread again, I can't help it, it is Friday and it is time to blow off some steam. Will try to do it respectfully elsewhere.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

dust

11-04-2006, 01:13 AM

Flo
I'm just glad to see the "boys" here!
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

forword

11-04-2006, 06:38 AM

Thanks Matt

mdillon

11-04-2006, 06:58 AM

fwd-It was made out of frustration late at night when I was having trouble sleeping

hey forword, dust got you out with the dogs again? you know, not a negative confession or anything, but next time you can't sleep I hope you post more things like this because you shucked it to the cob as mattie would say. And I'm not just pounding a horse or beating a dead table...wait a minute.....was that right?

dilly

matt_hatter

11-04-2006, 02:04 PM

Dilly I think you have confused poor Moses, as he hasn't been around in a while. You gotta hand it to us all, one thing we all have in common, we have the genetic makeup of a pit bull on steroids.

Mo: "their own positions are minority and strange perspectives within the body of Christ."

Now I hate to open a can of cockroaches (isn't that the right saying Dilly, since you are so good with idioms?) but only a cursory read of factnet would show opinions all over the map. To peg us with a strange perspective only shows how little this guy has read factnet objectively. The fact that we fuss like kids, anathema in EN/MCM, just indicates a bunch of God's chillins acting like independent thinkers, not always agreeing but able to get a word in.

It is the LACK of diversity of thought, both in MCM and EN that kept folks in bondage. I have never seen the Purple Book, but it sounds like a glorified version of our old Red Book, a thoughtless, brainless fill-in-the-blank piece of doctrinal propaganda that was written for the purpose of not wanting you to develop any kind of critical thinking process. Now, go read a Phillip Yancey book, and there you have someone who will make you THINK!!

The mere fact that we don't always agree in here is not what repels me, it is actually the thing that draws me, as I see God in the dialogue, if I open my brain to listen! Even you Moses make me think, and although I think your line of thought is simply wrong, it has caused me to gather my thoughts and respond at times. You have unknowingly done a good thing in here, pal!

Matt bygolly Hatter

maranatha1984

11-04-2006, 07:38 PM

Matt:is the LACK of diversity of thought, both in MCM and EN that kept folks in bondage. I have never seen the Purple Book, but it sounds like a glorified version of our old Red Book, a thoughtless, brainless fill-in-the-blank piece of doctrinal propaganda that was written for the purpose of not wanting you to develop any kind of critical thinking process. Now, go read a Phillip Yancey book, and there you have someone who will make you THINK!!

Tikie- Got my hand on a Copy of the Purple Book Monday Mattie- more sophisticated version of the Red Book-(thanks to my little helper)...Matt you cannot believe what is in this thing...

As far as Jon- the guy is, well he is whacked. I give JBK credit- he does engage in discussion and he argues with what you have said...Mr Mosely- uh- I am not sure who he is arguing with- he makes the other side say what ever he wants to.

Actually I think Jon is nothing but a troll. Really- I mean compared to him JBK is the theological equivalent of Martin Luther and Calvin combined (No offense JBK) plus we all know that JBK is well, a kid, while JM: just read some of the stuff on the web about him...its there- I won't go into it...