Israel Houghton Lakewood

[sunshinesaint]

Hello all http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif
Does anyone know why Israel Left EN? Is Lakewood somehow linked to EN? I used to like watching Joel Osteen on TV - BUT now can't stand it...since I have started healing from EN experience. I don't know anything about Lakewood but I just can't stand the "flashy" singers and choirs...it is more like a concert..."look at us...aren't we cool" - like EN is...so I turn off now! Much prefer to watch Hillsong!!! I like Darlene Zschech - my gut feeling tells me, her spirit is softer to the Lord!

[jbkrems]

Sunshinesaint: I don't know why Israel left EN, although I don't know how Israel was connected, except through Champions for Christ Ministries in TX.

I do know that Israel Houghton has been the worship leader at many different churches during his life, including Phoenix First Assembly of God (Pastor Tommy Barnett), and of course, Lakewood with Joel Osteen.

Lakewood is NOT AT ALL connected to EN. EN has its own church in Houston.

Did you know Darlene Zsesch has been to Lakewood and led worship there??? Did you know Lakewood does a lot of Hillsong's music???

I do not see a big difference between Hillsong and Lakewood, in fact, I think that they are rather similar, and what Hillsong is to Austrailia, Lakewood is to America. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[dust]

Sunshine
Israel simply had a better offer. JoelOsteen is not related to EN.,

[wisedove]

krems,
I agree with you. They are both into being Mega churches.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi all !
Sunshine saint -Hi I am so glad that you are here!! Thank you for starting this thread. Yes I felt the same thing as you do..one gets healed and now can see. So it is hard to do what we did before. Thank you again.}

[sunshinesaint]

Hello - thank you all for your responses - I had seen Israel at the different EN conferences, we used to come from Australasia so...I was confused oneday when lone behold there he was on TV!!! Yes I don't know why I get a different feeling about Darlene...we have not gone to find a new church yet and so it is great for my baby I to have some sort of worship together! I normally have to go with my gut feeling as that and the Lord's word told me a lot about EN and about "getting out"! In fact the Lord brought me to the passage of Matthew 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferious wolves." I was very shocked when I read this passage as I had been praying to God about EN...as I had a bad gut feeling already...my story anyways is elsewhere in this forum. But thanks anyway for your posts - always appreciate them!

[jbkrems]

Sunshinesaint:

Another thing is that Israel and Darlene are good friends. In fact, both of them led worship at a worship conference in Atlanta, Ga., at Free Chapel Worship Center, with Pastor Jentezen Franklin. Apparently Israel and the current worship pastor at Free Chapel Worship Center go way back, and both served at Phoenix First AG.

[sunshinesaint]

VERY interesting...thanks jbkrems

[ulyankee]

Lakewood is an AG church too from what I recall, right jbkrems?

[jbkrems]

Ulayankee: Nope, I think you're confusing Lakewood with another church. Lakewood in Houston (Joel Osteen's church) is completely non-denominational. In fact, before Lakewood Church was non-denominational, Joel Osteen's father, the late John Osteen, was Southern Baptist, so no way is it AG. But they are still WOF, though.

[jbkrems]

Ulayankee: Nope, I think you're confusing Lakewood with another church. Lakewood in Houston (Joel Osteen's church) is completely non-denominational. In fact, before Lakewood Church was non-denominational, Joel Osteen's father, the late John Osteen, was Southern Baptist, so no way is it AG. But they are still WOF, though.

[mcmstaff78]

Well, considering John Osteen died of a heart attack, I would guess their "faith" isn't working too great. I wonder why God didn't "rebuke the devour" in Papa Osteen's case?

[mcmstaff78]

Well, considering John Osteen died of a heart attack, I would guess their "faith" isn't working too great. I wonder why God didn't "rebuke the devour" in Papa Osteen's case?

[jbkrems]

mcmstaff78: John Osteen did not die of a heart attack. This is wrong as a matter of fact, because he did not die instantaneously.

Also, I think perhaps it was time for him to go when he did --- he had lived a long life, and was in the hospital when he died.

Quite frankly your comments, mcmstaff, are offensive towards the Osteen family and towards the life and ministry of both John and his son Joel Osteen, along with John's wife Dodie, and the rest of the Osteen family. I hope you would not mock and deride them like that if they saw your comment.

[jbkrems]

mcmstaff78: John Osteen did not die of a heart attack. This is wrong as a matter of fact, because he did not die instantaneously.

Also, I think perhaps it was time for him to go when he did --- he had lived a long life, and was in the hospital when he died.

Quite frankly your comments, mcmstaff, are offensive towards the Osteen family and towards the life and ministry of both John and his son Joel Osteen, along with John's wife Dodie, and the rest of the Osteen family. I hope you would not mock and deride them like that if they saw your comment.

[getagrip]

"Joel Osteen's father, the late John Osteen, was Southern Baptist, so no way is it AG. But they are still WOF, though."

Joel Osteen is about as Word of Faith as bluewater2...

Careful what you feed on Krems, all spirit filled preachers are not alike and they are definitely not all WOF.

Joel Osteen is never present at any National WOF gathering of ministers that I am aware of, is not in ICFM and teaches that God will allow things in your life to discipline you.

This does make not him (or Joyce Meyers for that matter who teaches the same thing) bad people, but it does excludes them from being what most would consider to be WOF. John Osteen IS definitely WOF, one only has to read his book "Miracle in Your Mouth" to know that. I hope Joel's congregation does...

Mcmstaff78 you most likely born in '78, only a juvenile thumbsucker would make rude comments about a preacher dying...

Don't like the WOF preachers? Great, but using the fact that they die at some point in their lives as proof that the faith message isn't truth is kind of silly.. surely you must be able to come up with something stronger than that?

[mcmstaff78]

Krems - the information available on the Internet indicates Osteen Senior died of a heart attack. If you have other evidence, please present it.

Grip - you know what they say about assuming stuff. I was on staff at MCM in '78, not born in '78. For someone concerned about me being rude, calling me a condescending name (juvenile thumbsucker? I mean, really) wouldn't seem to place you on the moral highground.

IF the Osteens frequented this board I certainly would have phrased by statement differently. If it offended the sensibilities of those who continue to propagate WoF "doctrine" and tradition, then well and good - the whole system offends me and is offensive to true Christian doctrine. It is encumbent on a system whose unique distinctions are presented as truth based on "evidence" that it works (this is pragmatism) to demonstrate that. WoF rarely, if ever, demonstrates it works any more than not doing anything. I presented a whole littany of WoF pillars who died early and of disease. Krem's assertion of "God's time" is contrary to WoF theology in and of itself for, according to them, it is never "God's time" for someone to die early or die of illness or disease. So it isn't that they "die sometime" (not the assertion I made) but the manner in which they die.

Get a grip indeed...

[getagrip]

"Krem's assertion of "God's time" is contrary to WoF theology" I agree.

Your assertion that you apply faith in the matter of healing and then wait for God to rebuke the devourer is also not a "tenet" of WOF theology.

I do not disagree with what you said, I just think it's rude that you said it.

Wherever you are on staff, I imagine the church is plagued by Staff Infection...

[getagrip]

PS There is no moral high ground on Factnet, after 408 posts you should know that McStaffInfection.

[sameo]

Well, now 'getagrip'-what makes YOUR rudeness acceptable, if you say 78's isn't?

seriously...

[getagrip]

You're right, I shouldn't be rude to some who makes light of a pastor's early demise. Very insensitive of me. Thank you sameo. You clearly operate on a higher moral ground than me here on Factnet. Carry on your in your mission to provide equal opporunity offending and equitable portions of rudeness, root out any injustices done in these areas on Factnet. Make Factnet a fair and just place for nonmorons and morons alike. Every town needs a sheriff. I've duly noted that making fun of someone who died and being sarcastic with someone on Factnet are on the same level... seriously.

[dust]

To have FAITH in our GOD for everything in our life is a teaching that is weaved throughout all the teachings of Jesus Christ, in fact the whole bible really, and not to be mocked. There are ALWAYS going to be people who PERVERT and COUNTERFEIT everything and anything about Jesus Christ and the Christain faith.

I read this book by Rob Bell, called Velvet Elvis. He calls these "doctrines" we fight about "bricks", and refers to the religion created out of them, as "Brickianity".

Brickianity vs. Christianity...now that's a great topic.

WOF or Non-WOF - Brickianity or Christianity. I think they can be both and, therein, lies the problem.

Are we building walls with bricks, or are we building the kingdom with Christ? Just something to think about.

[matt_hatter]

"McStaffInfection."

It is this kind of name calling that we all have come to realize has caused mass disharmony on this board. I have been guilty of it and have also been convicted to stop. I would plead with you grip not to continue this---disagreement is one thing, name calling another...you only have to read MCM's posts historically to realize that he puts a great deal of thought into his words, an off hand comment (in your mind) does not warrant name calling.

[mdillon]

Every town needs a sheriff

did somebody call?
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/FactLogoSmall.gif

marshall dilly

[mdillon]

Every town needs a sheriff

did somebody call?
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/FactLogoSmall.gif

marshall dilly

[sameo]

grip, i'm on no mission here, nor am I walking on higher ground than anyone(nor do i care to)....if anything I'm walking on much lower ground than YOU, grip..-i just felt 78 was misunderstood, because i know his posts, and know his true heart. He isn't an intentionally rude person. And I'm sure-- nor are you. I just thought it was interesting calling him an offensive name while you simultaneously called him rude. But you certainly got the point across. And no one is saying being disrespectful to the dead is right.(at least not intentionally saying it)

Hey, i don't wanna be sheriff...that's the marshall's job.(hi dilly) I am satisfied being Miss Kitty! and MY apologies for offending you, grip. I don't think I'm better than you.

[mcmstaff78]

Grip - please note that I did not make fun of Mr. Osteen Sr.'s early demise. I was mocking the tenets by which WoF live their lives and which do not work. These beliefs are a fraud that is clearly demonstrated in so many of the "leaders" and "pillars" of this tradition dying early.

And what I heard in my (many) years as part of WoF was that, indeed, "rebuking the devourer" involved physical as well as material matters. Perhaps I should have alluded to Psalm 91 instead, another pivotal scripture for WoF doctrine:
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
(Psa 91:3-9)<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>My point was that it has, indeed, "come nigh" many, many of have put their trust in these doctrines, including John Osteen.

[mcmstaff78]

Now, let me sincerely apologize to those offended by my initial remark. As noted above, it was not my intent to ridicule John Osteen himself.

[getagrip]

Fair enough MCM. Consider it a closed matter.

BTW, by way of keeping the peace as suggested by several here - I will ignore "I was mocking the tenets by which WoF live their lives and which do not work. These beliefs are a fraud that is clearly demonstrated in so many of the "leaders" and "pillars" of this tradition dying early." this travesty of misrepresentation of WOF ministers.

Nothing like a nice blanket statement to make you feel justified in your beliefs.

Good day gentlemen and thank you for the lively yet civil discourse this morning.

[dust]

You know I watch these bricks get handled, and I have to wonder, what about the FAITH we DO have, and walk in. I, myself, believe myself to be a woman of faith, who does fall short and all too often confessing the most negative things. And, stopping myself and looking up and believing God can and DOES act inside our life, and there is another extreme to run to, pure rationale.

I pray for healing.
I pray for my business to prosper.
I pray for my neighbor's salvation.
I pray for my marriage.
I pray for safety when I drive.
I pray for constant direction and blessing in my life.
I BELIEVE when I'm praying, there is a God above who is also RESPONDING. I pray to the majesty, the mercy, the love of God in positive confession of who HE is.

Does this make me swept in some movement, where my every move is alligned with some man's books or trainings? Can I simply be faithful, and faith filled and alligned with GOD?

Or am I a heretic?

[mcmstaff78]

Dust, don't equate having faith in God with the doctrines of the Word of Faith movement. It's quite easy to do research on the heretical views of the Word of Faith movement - just google "word of faith" and "heresy" and you'll find lots of stuff.

Not sure what you mean regarding "positive confession of who He is", but God is God - and I pray for many of the same things you do, always submitting myself to His will, even as our Lord prayed "not mine, by Thy will be done" and as the Apostle James reminds us "Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. (Jam 4:13-15)

[jbkrems]

Getagrip: Joel Osteen's heritage is WOF. He went to Oral Roberts University, which is a WOF university. He might be what some would call "WOF lite" because he is not hardcore WOF, like Ken Copeland, et al, but his roots are there.

Joyce Meyer is also WOF in her spiritual heritage. But yes, both her and Joel Osteen have become more mainstream in their approach, and are not hardcore WOF preachers.

mcmstaff78: The information that I received when the late John Osteen passed away is that he had a heart attack, and was hospitalized, and then died at a later time. I do not recall the exact order of events, but that's what I remember, and I could be wrong here. I do not believe he died instantaneously after the heart attack.

Regardless, John Osteen I believe was 78 when he passed away, so he lived a long and fruitful life, and he led many to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Maybe he died prematurely, but pretty much everyone in the WOF community acknowledge it was perhaps time to pass the baton on to the next generation, as well.

[matt_hatter]

Dust, the things you are praying for are those things that make a daily walk with Christ personal. It is when folks start making "demands" on God, that he 'must honor His word" and bless my business, etc. that gives me the hives. Getting into the Contractual Gospel stuff...well no thanks. (I do not wish to argue this point JB, so please, if you respond to this, I won't respond back, not being rude, it is just a subject that has gotten boring)

God can do anything He wants, responding to the demands of a pipsqueak like me maybe, maybe not. And He is actually not doing it because I demand it, I now believe all blessings, and hardships for that matter, are part of His plan for me.

Your specific prayers listed above sound like someone seeking, not demanding His guidance and blessings on a daily basis. Real faith.

(Message edited by matt_hatter on November 03, 2006)

[sunshinesaint]

ANYWAYS...Now that we all got that out of our system http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Thanks again everyone...I was thinking about Hillsong in relation to EN again and I reckon that one just needs to look at their congregation to propose one view that at least these people are conformtable to wear t-shirts and slips slops/jandals to church - have "messy" hair - including the worship leaders and dreads etc...they appear to not be too concerned about appearance - which I now admire coming out of EN! They are not encouraged to wear suits to church! GOoD ON THEM!!!

[dust]

Sunshine
Please bear with us. We have a tendency to hijack threads and work our issue out, but the good news is that we CAN question, debate, etc. here.

We often wrestle to the ground, but it's healthy, and it's free and there are enough differences to bring us back to our senses if we veer too far off. Lots of great discussions here. Right Matt?

[jbkrems]

Sunshinesaint:

I think if you visited Hillsong Church on any given Sunday, you might find something different than what you see on their weekly TV show, which I watch, as well. The music videos you see are NOT recorded from the church, but from their annual conferences, produced in a big stadium, where they record each of their live CDs. The preaching segments of Brian Houston are sometimes recorded from selected Sundays, and sometimes are recorded from leadership conferences hosted at the church, as well.

I've never been to Hillsong Church myself, but I have friends who have gone. And they tell me some people there DO wear suits.

Another thing about suits... I am aware of non-EN churches that are suit-friendly churches, and its more a church culture thing for them. It is not a "requirement," but if you are going to be on the platform, they want you to wear a suit out of respect for whatever reason. I'm on the platform at my church (I'm on the worship team), but we don't have that requirement, it is purely optional. The only dress code rule we have for people on the platform is NO JEANS. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

But other churches are a little more strict about it, and require Sunday morning guest speakers to wear suits, and the like. A good example is Eagle Mountain in Ft. Worth.

[matt_hatter]

Lots of great discussions here. Right Matt?

LOL Let's just say even old dogs can learn new tricks, like keeping the silly where it belongs and the serious where it belongs. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[sunshinesaint]

Mmmn - thank you - oneday I should visit Hillsong and see it for myself http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif I wore jeans to church today LOL. In my EN church one had to wear a suit even if you were sitting in the pew...or better out...the expensive seat in the auditorium! I thought I was just dressing for "Excellence"...but then when I left I realised that Jesus would never have sat in EN church 'cos he would have been very underdressed I am sure. I had a friend once who attended Morning Star..as it was back then...he was such a wonderful Christian guy, he was just casual in his dress and possibly a bit messy...but who cares! He was told to dress better and not to take drink into church with him. He wad the same guy that asked the main pastor to be discipled by him...BUT was told that the main pastor was too busy (with other people that looked better and a great destiny on their lives) and John..if you are readong this...for your sake...I know this as a TRUE fact because I like other people in this thread and others have been on staff and have been in staff meetings when these words...word for word, as mentioned above...have been said!!! SHAME ON THEM. Anyways...i got off the topic...

Now I love being comfortable in church!
PRAISE GOD

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[jbkrems]

Sunshinesaint:

That's interesting. I didn't know EN churches had a requirement on their members (the male ones) to wear suits every Sunday. That is ALSO interesting because I have seen some pictures of some of their pastors, and they are dressed more casually. I've even pictures of Sunday morning services where the Senior Pastor (i.e. Brett Fuller) is not wearing a suit and tie.

At my church, which has NO affiliation with EN, only male ushers are required to wear suits and ties. Its optional for everyone else, and yes, some of that is said to "dress for excellence," but it is not pushed outside of the ushers, and I am happy with that... as a member of the worship team, I like it that all I have to wear is a nice shirt and nice pants, and I do not have to wear suits and ties, except when I feel like it, to change it up. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif