ENI JAPAN MESSAGE Can anyone tell whats wrong with this message

[japinoy]

http://www.ygbc.org/podcast/index.php?id=65

This is a link to the sermon by a guest speaker from Philippines in the church I used to go in Yokohama Japan.

I'm curious if anyone can tell what's wrong with this message that seems to be appealing to the ears of men?

(Message edited by japinoy on November 11, 2006)

[osakadan]

I could only put up with it for 5 mins. The jokes (in jap. & eng.) were sickening. That was enough for me and I'm not even a christian.

[lc_20]

Japinoy,
I listened to the whole thing. It took an hour and 15 minutes. So, to save everyone else some time, I took some notes.

Osakadan, I agree with you about the "warm up". I dont know Japaneese, but I picked up on many key EN topics of interest: Vision, shopping, star bucks, how many in your church now, how many worship services... So, I am sure it was nausiating.

The message was for a "Victory Weekend". I didn't recognize the name of the speaker, but I have heard everything he said before out of the mouths of other EN leaders. His warm up started with visions of large churches and name dropping. Glory was given to P. Steve for the speakers salvation and for all that went on in Manila. Then the message:

Japan is hard soil but God is going to advance his kingdom there - the EN movement is with them in prayer and heart - to increase their sphere of influence with crusades like Billy Graham and revival.

Basis of message is Acts 9:10-18. How Ananius had an impact on history - changed history.
Encouraged members to be used by God to advance the kingdom - serve church with no pay is a privelege. Church is full of spiritual babeies. Pastors are spiritual parents/guardians. Disciple is responsible for others like parents - "caring" for the children. Heart of the father is the burden of leaders. Need to care and train individuals. Lots of churches preach the gospel but few take on the burden of equiping and training people. Burden is personal price to pay. Those you train up will be more annointed than you.

How did Ananius "harvest the multitudes" .... (see next post)

[lc_20]

How did Ananius harvest the multitudes:
1. Destiny - aware of new found focus.

Talked about how Steve and Rice spoke faith/life into him. "International pastor" "Chosen instrument". Vision - people saved like stars in the sky. Father will give you what ever you ask for. Disciples like Jesus - likeness to the son.

2. Definition - need a family. Ananius defined Saul by calling him "Brother Paul". Paul had been blinded by guilt/condemnation/hurting heart.

Personal story followed about how pastor speaking would rather minister to students but God brought him a wealthy congressman. So, he gave him the two question quiz: Is Jesus Lord of your life? Are you serious about being discipled? Followed this with the 1-1 class and then the new members class.

3. Development - assist new members to faith in ministry. Once filled with holy spirit, Saul began preaching. ENLI.

Message was concluded by a testimony from a lawyer with own law firm. He leads 6 groups per week while attending another group. He told the story of one of his own disciples mentioning two key areas of weakness which I don't feel comfortable repeating (wonder why pastor didn't keep this persons confidence). He also mentioned some supposed sins of this guys wife (rock throwing). This guy being discipled by the lawer telling the testimony was then blessed financially for being and obedient disciple and is now leading two groups of his own.

So, like I said, it all sounds very similar right down to the quick badmouthing of the loyal disciples wife.

[lc_20]

japinoy,
The major thing wrong with this is the control. God is not responsible for following this three step system which requires people to buy all P. Steves publications to follow. Plus, I have seen this discipleship thing taken way to far to the point of taking away peoples freedom in Christ at best or worse case - being a complete stumbling block to some. Very heavy burdons. Plus, the concept of sacrifice and burdon doesn't seem to reach the top who are living in their million dollar homes.

[dust]

WHen Steve M. was introducing the new "cell group" approach, which this seems to replicate, he bragged about how hard the folks in the Phillipines worked. One gal had a full time job and had FIVE outreach cell groups.

I remember looking up and thinking it was all I could do to have ONE cell group, and NOT because I didn't have the time. I didn't have the mental or spiritual energy to take care of more than one group. I took this responsibility very seriously, being available, praying for them, looking in on their families. What they were describing to me sounded like a FACTORY and very much a contest. This "focus on a star disciple" was actually demoralizing.

Why don't they just get a CELL GROUP REALITY SHOW and do "eliminations" for the weak leaders?

[ulyankee]

The speaker (Pst. Ferdie Cabiling) is sr. pastor of Victory Ortigas (http://www.victory.org.ph/content/view/288/1#ortigas) (Metro Manila) and is listed as a key evangelist in the 2010 Initiative (http://www.everynation.org/assets/files/pdf/The_2010_Initiative.pdf).

Victory Weekends are group deliverance weekends which were initiated according to Steve Murrell in the E412 discipleship series because people were waiting to get deliverance from "expert" deliverance ministers like John Rohrer - they can go through it more quickly and efficiently in a group setting where it doesn't get "strange" or "weird."

My issues with Victory Weekends are that (1) it is based on the assumption that Christians need to go through an additional man-initiated procedure to be delivered of sins, curses, iniquities, etc. - it adds an intermediary between believers and God and (2) that the need for deliverance from sins, generational curses, iniquities, demons, etc. is the rule rather than the exception. It seems that Victory Weekends are being required in many EN churches for fully vested membership into the church. It at best assumes that the Holy Spirit needs help to sanctify believers and that intermediaries are required to bring believers to full victory in Christ, and at worst adds works to salvation itself. Yes, I went through a Victory Weekend and based on the E412 series I'm fairly sure that the Victory Weekends now being instituted through the movement are fairly close to what was done in my former church.

(Message edited by ulyankee on November 12, 2006)

[ulyankee]

btw, I know that EN says they are changing, but I don't see a lot of change as reflected in what the leaders are doing and saying.

Hint: The watered down piecemeal Scripture as presented in the Purple Book and the E412 Discipleship books are not going to mature the spiritual babies that the speaker talks about here. "Disciples" acting as parents won't either. Without the full counsel of the Word, they will STUNT GROWTH. Hmm, this sounds an awful lot like SHEPHERDING to me, but isn't this October 2006 and not 1986?????

Only the PURE MILK OF THE WORD will do (1 Peter 2:2). Interestingly, this is exactly one of the verses my current pastor discussed in his sermon today, in almost exactly this context. Except he didn't talk about more mature Christians viewing "baby Christians" as precious children, but GOD viewing us this way.

THIS IS A BODY THAT HAS **STILL** FORGOTTEN THAT CHRIST IS THE HEAD!!!!!

[ulyankee]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

WHen Steve M. was introducing the new "cell group" approach, which this seems to replicate, he bragged about how hard the folks in the Phillipines worked. One gal had a full time job and had FIVE outreach cell groups.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

You probably know this Dust but so others know as well... what is on sale as the E412 Discipleship Strategy teaching series is exactly the same presentation you saw at Bethel - so it's not just limited to being a local teaching/presentation but a sanctioned, movement-wide one.

[mdillon]

THIS IS A BODY THAT HAS **STILL** FORGOTTEN THAT CHRIST IS THE HEAD!!!!! -ulyankee

Can't spend what you ain't got,
Can't lose what you never had. -Allman Bros.

You can't forget what you never knew. -dilly

Keep it up, uly. It doesn't matter if they don't get it...others are.

[hawaii8085]

Is John Rohrer Still on the speaking circuit? I haven't heard of him since about 82-83 when he married marrisa.

This is so weird, This stuff sounds like a repackaging of what MCM was teaching in 1980. I hear from friends that they got rid of the bad stuff but no one wants to be specific about what they considered bad.

I ditched christianity for messianic judaism a couple years ago (one would think they are not that different, but they really are) the one thing that was really attractive to me was that the leaders were not put on a pedistal at all. Another was a complete lack of the "cult of personallity thing"

I am not near a fellowship so most of what I here is over the net. I studied romans this morning. Their interpretation is very different. here is the link http://www.bethtikkun.com/audio/Romans/Romans.htm

I appreciate you all posting this info, ya kind of forget after a decade or 2 just why God pulled me out of this mess. The fog is lifting, Ahhh, yes, that is why I decided to move mainland!

[osakadan]

Rohrer was living in Melbourne in 1986. Think he had been based there at least a year, maybe 2.

[mdillon]

osakadan, did you live in osaka? and if so did you ever know of a missionary named Carlton Kenney?

[miltietoast]

john may be in nashville now

[forword]

John was at Bethel (Nashville) when we came in 2000. In the early days, he was the lone amen chorus that would sit on the front row and amen everything the pastor was saying. As far as I know, he is still there.

[osakadan]

Have been in Osaka since '91. There are quite a lot of missionaries here but don't really move in those circles. Haven't heard of Carlton Kenny but am sure someone around me probably has.

From some research I did on the net, I saw something that said John Rohrer owned a house in ths same street as Rice et al.

[osakadan]

Back to the "sermon". After listening to it all, I am left with a bad taste in my mouth. It really lacks sincerity to me. Obviously I come from a different perspective because I am not Christian but I didn't get any sense of God in the sermon. It seemed like a rallying of employees by a section manager but thinly veiled in religiosity.

Equally as bad was the absorption of MCM/EN/Reliqious culture into Japan. Bear with me as I am not explaining this well. Japan has a history of absorbing other cultures etc but make it their own be it pop, technology, english whatever but it disturbed me who much the sermon was so "American religious" even when translated into Japanese.

Having been here so long I know speech patterns quite well.This was just so unnatural. The voice modulation, the word emphasis....can't explain it better but it was all just so unnatural. My Japanese partner just laughed. I thought it was about the message but it was actually about the wholesale copying of the mcm way of talking.

[ulyankee]

osakadan, about John Rohrer, yes, he has a house in Franklin, Tennessee, in the same upscale subdivision as other EN and Bethel World Outreach Center leaders, though not including Rice Broocks who is in an even more upscale gated subdivision in the same town.

[ginger1]

I listened in the beginning, where Ferdie talks about having a mega church.
Which is a common in EN and VCF.
here is the problem , EN and VCF loves having a large amount of money, they have a lust for it. And another problem is they also love having a large amount of people in the church, (mega church). Which I find is also a lust for having a large church.
We know how Phil manipulate the books to divert large amount of their own pockets, its the same thing as Rice Brookes manipulating pastors diverting the church to EN.

There is really no difference at all. Its the same thing LUST.

Having a passion and love for God is not about having a large church and large amount of money. Its about HIM !
Solomon became King and he did not ask for glory nor money. Solomon was rewarded by the Lord for putting God and His people first .

The lust of having a large church and large amount of money in EN and VCF that they have to resort to manipulation, bribery, scams ,lies and stealing.

That shows me that NOTHING has change. Change start from the heart.