New Life amp Ted Haggard The Need for Accountability

[jesusisawesome]

Dear New Lifers and friends of New Life Church,

Many of you have expressed concern about today's news regarding our pastor. Thank you all for your prayers and support, and for your concern for our church family.

As you've likely heard by now, Pastor Ted has voluntarily placed himself on administrative leave as New Life's senior pastor to allow our external board of overseers to work effectively. Below is the statement that we released to the media on Thursday afternoon.

Since that time, the board of overseers has met with Pastor Ted. It is important for you to know that he confessed to the overseers that some of the accusations against him are true. He has willingly and humbly submitted to the authority of the board of overseers, and will remain on administrative leave during the course of the investigation.

I am serving as the acting senior pastor of New Life Church. I met with the pastoral staff and elders Thursday night, and I assure you that the leadership team is strong and united. We remain resolute in our commitment to serving New Life Church and the people of our community.

Please continue to keep Ted and Gayle and their family in your prayers.

I love serving God with you all,

Ross Parsley


November 2, 2006

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
From New Life Church
Colorado Springs, Colorado

Rev. Ted Haggard, Senior Pastor of New Life Church, stated today that he could "not continue to minister under the cloud created by the accusations made on Denver talk radio this morning." He, therefore, placed himself on administrative leave, pending investigation, spiritual counsel, and a decision by the church's board of overseers. Pastor Haggard said, "I am voluntarily stepping aside from leadership so that the overseer process can be allowed to proceed with integrity. I hope to be able to discuss this matter in more detail at a later date. In the interim, I will seek both spiritual advice and guidance."

Under the governing structure of New Life Church, there is a board of overseers consisting of four senior pastors of other congregations. Those overseers have authority to conduct an inquiry, to discipline the senior pastor, to remove him from his position, or to restore him to ministry. The overseers of New Life Church are: Rev. Larry Stockstill, Senior Pastor of Bethany World Prayer Center, in Baker, Louisiana; Rev. Mark Cowart, Senior Pastor of Church For All Nations in Colorado Springs; Rev. Tim Ralph, Senior Pastor of New Covenant Fellowship in Larkspur, Colorado; and Rev. Michael Ware, Senior Pastor of Victory Church in Westminster, Colorado.

In the interim, New Life Church Associate Senior Pastor, Rev. Ross Parsley, will serve as Acting Senior Pastor of the church. Rev. Parsley has served in senior ministry positions at New Life Church for fifteen years. Rev. Parsley requested the community's compassion and prayers for the person who came forward with accusations, for the Haggard family, and for the New Life Church community. He also said, "New Life Church long ago adopted an overseer model of governance for situations just like this. People need to be patient and allow this process to unfold as it was designed to do."

Pastor Haggard also resigned today as President of the National Association of Evangelicals.

[jesusisawesome]

Going back to the conversations on another thread about the alabaster vial broken over the feet of Christ being equated with "men of God" deserving rewards . . . no man or woman should be put on a pedestal! None are righteous except Jesus Christ alone. Mini-Gods are made out of people all the time in the Christian realm, but the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ is all that there is to fall upon to deliver us from the corruption of our own hearts. He alone is worthy of glory, honor and praise.

[jesusisawesome]

Going back to the conversations on another thread about the alabaster vial broken over the feet of Christ being equated with "men of God" deserving rewards . . . no man or woman should be put on a pedestal! None are righteous except Jesus Christ alone. Mini-Gods are made out of people all the time in the Christian realm, but the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ is all that there is to fall upon to deliver us from the corruption of our own hearts. He alone is worthy of glory, honor and praise. Scandal, after scandal, after scandal, should have taught us this by now.

[dust]

This is crushing news! Yes, good for having a board in place. If even a little of this is true, did he not have anyone around him. I am very sad today for all concerned. For Ted...surely, people knew...it is not easy to live a secret life. For the congregation. And, for the "lost" who see this and lose hope, and for the body of Christ and see this and lose hope.

The single thing that strikes me here, is that people get into position and sin gravely and continue that sin because the people close to them cannot or willnot speak up. I think this has to be a part of the reform of every church, a value system that has integrity.

[mcmstaff78]

This is why it is critical for any religious body that claims to abide by the scriptures to follow what the Apostle Paul lays out in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. Far better for a man to step down, and save his soul, then to have to be exposed, not only to his own detriment, but to the detriment of the church and the cause of Christ. Too often we "wink" at sin, hoping people will repent. Well, I hope they will repent as well, but according to the Holy Scriptures, they can no longer represent Christ in the office of presbyter.

May God have mercy on all involved, to the healing souls.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> This is indeed sad news, and timely for the election, as I see it. That is a lonely place to be in leadership and involved in this a secret life. Not unlike David, and his fall from grace, so to speak. I hope that Ted and his family and church come to His love and grace for healing and a new knowledge of Him.}

[jbkrems]

I agree that this is sad, but I think we need to pray for Pastor Ted Haggard, his family, and his accuser, too. This is what I heard on Daystar this morning, after I read reports about this last night. We need to exercise grace and mercy, and be VERY slow to condemn. Pastor Ted Haggard is innocent until proven otherwise, and he needs to be respected.

I am glad to see pastoral oversight is involved here, and that Larry Stockstill is one of the overseers. I am also glad that Pastor Ted Haggard is showing signs of real humility in this situation, by voluntarily putting himself on administrative leave. However, I am also concerned because this is right before the election, and so the allegations I would say are rather suspect.

But, we need to pray for Pastor Ted Haggard, his family, his church, and his accuser. Let's do that right now. Father, thank you for what you have given us with Pastor Ted Haggard and his family, both naturally with his wife Gayle, and spiritually with his church. Father, please have grace and mercy on Pastor Ted Haggard, on his family, and his church, and bring grace and restoration to all who are involved in this situation, including the accuser. Amen!

[wildwood_]

Words from the Gospel of John 8

3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman taken in adultery. Having set her in the midst,

4 they told him, "Teacher, we found this woman in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now in our law, Moses commanded us to stone such. What then do you say about her?"

6 They said this testing him, that they might have something to accuse him of. But Jesus stooped down, and wrote on the ground with his finger.

7 But when they continued asking him, he looked up and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone at her."

8 Again he stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground.

9 They, when they heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning from the oldest, even to the last. Jesus was left alone with the woman where she was, in the middle.

10 Jesus, standing up, saw her and said, "Woman, where are your accusers? Did no one condemn you?"

11 She said, "No one, Lord." Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."

12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life."

The Lord threw no stones and offered Redemption in Himself... a few months later from speaking this lesson; Jesus carried our Cross, our Sins to a hill called "Golgotha" an ugly place an ugly name "Skull"...but it's our name, it's my name...and sometimes it is very easy to forget that one by one...that is where our sins would lead us and leave us.

But Jesus walked it for His Sheep, and took the ugliness upon Himself...ugliness so terrible that God the Father turned away from His Son because His Holiness could not be there. And Our Lord died...alone but for his mother and a few women who loved him...

The same women went to the tomb, found it empty and cried in sorrow...then in Abundant Joy. Christ Arose...and Won our Victory... And reaches out from that ugly place...I think of not as "Golgotha" but as CALVARY...which also means "Skull" but somehow has always sounded like a New Name to me...

Mercy there was great, and grace was free;
Pardon there was multiplied to me;
There my burdened soul found liberty at Calvary.
Now I've given to Jesus everything,
Now I gladly own Him as my King,
Now my raptured soul can only sing of Calvary!

Mercy there was great, and grace was free;
Pardon there was multiplied to me;
There my burdened soul found liberty at Calvary.
Oh, the love that drew salvation's plan!
Oh, the grace that brought it down to man!
Oh, the mighty gulf that God did span at Calvary
(On Calvary, lyrics by W.Newell written about 100 years ago...or perhaps daily for all of us).

My prayers for all... In my lifetime, I've seen many "Leaders of the Faith" fall; and Ministries fall with them-- I would like to see the miracle of renewal &amp; singing and going forth again with gladness as a fallen brother is lifted and stands again... freed by the Truth-- to testify of Calvary's Hope &amp; Mercy to a sadly dark world...that too often sees Christians as either throwing stones or condemning the "sinners"....AND to testify to the "Churches"...that too often view their leaders as "idols" whose weaknesses must be hidden in secret and not as real men or real women...--who are sometimes "weak" when they "would be strong"... because that is the same struggle I have daily as a Believer &amp; the same Victory I have daily by the Grace of God through the Love of Jesus Christ.

[j2theperson]

According to this news report (http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4597813) Haggard has "confessed to some indiscretions alleged by a homosexual prostitute".

[jesusisawesome]

Krems: We need to exercise grace and mercy, and be VERY slow to condemn. Pastor Ted Haggard is innocent until proven otherwise, and he needs to be respected.

JIA: In no way, shape, or form am I trying to judge or condemn. Ross has stated that some of it is true, but has not yet made public what part of the allegations are. Forgive me if what I was trying to convey here was unclear, but my point I was hoping to make is that we are to lift no one up but Christ. Too often, leadership is put on a pedestal. They are human too. There is one that is perfect, and that is Christ. Leadership is not exempt from temptation.

[freedom43]

Coppertree: This is indeed sad news, and timely for the election, as I see it.

me: I agree this is very sad/upsetting. Since you mentioned it, how do you see this playing out politically/impacting the elections? I would be very interested to know folks' perspective on that.

[matt_hatter]

God's grace is much bigger than this man's sin. Let's hope he responds to it in a humble and contrite way. His wife is who my heart really goes out to.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Krems: Pastor Ted Haggard is innocent until proven otherwise, and he needs to be respected.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> This is only true in a court of law. The man has acknowledged that some of the allegations are true. He is certainly "guilty" of whatever he has actually done, whether it is ever "proven" or not. And whether "proven" or not, if he has done them he no longer qualifies to be in leadership.

Note, this is not being judgemental or wanting to metaphorically "stone" the man. These are the qualifications that scripture lays down, "[a]n overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife...And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." Folks who have an argument with that need to take it up with the Apostle Paul and the Holy Spirit.

Being disqualified for leadership does not mean he cannot be saved or anything like that. It simply means that in the economy of God's Grace in this world he is no longer qualified to represent Christ as an "overseer" or "episcopos". Lot's of honorable things for a man to do that would allow him to both be obedient to the scriptures and support his family.

[j2theperson]

Here's an update. According to this news story (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/11/03/D8L5PJLO0.html) Haggard has admitted that he bought methamphetamine and received a massage from a gay prostitute but is denying that he had sex. According to this story, he bought the meth because he was curious.

"I bought it for myself but never used it," he said. "I was tempted, but I never used it."

[freedom43]

This "never used it" and massage sound a little fishy to me. I am blessed in that drugs have never, ever been a temptation for me --by God's grace. I have been curious but never curious enough to try any drugs or go buy some. In other words, it seems like a step above curious to go out and buy a drug -- and if I were gonna start somewhere, not sure it would be with meth. Sadly, I think this could point to bigger issues re: substance abuse.

Without getting too graphic, I also have a hard time believing a massage from a prostitute would not be sexual. Otherwise, why not go to a spa/Elizabeth Arden? There's no shame in that.

I'll be praying for this man and for his family. But, mostly, I will pray for his church and the believer's whose faith may be shattered by his downfall.

[j2theperson]

I also find Haggard's explaination fairly dubious. You'll have a hard time convincing me that anyone would just buy themselves drugs because they were curious.

Barring further evidence, I could accept the assertion that sex itself did not occur, but, again, you strain my credulity if you want me to believe that a man can seek out a male prositute to give him a massage and yet there be no sexual aspect to that act/encounter.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All , Freedom
According to the little that I know in this particular situation but in relation to the larger things that I know about political actions and their timing. The man who began this story by talking on Denver radio station on Thursday. Next Tuesday is the election. According to many ,including the man himself; he knew this in August, but waited a day to close to a weekend before elections to make his assertions know.}

[jbkrems]

JIA: Do you go to New Life in Colorado Springs???

Are you trying to suggest that before this happened, Pastor Ted Haggard WAS put on a pedestal???

mcmstaff78: I was taking that statement from what Marcus Lamb said on Daystar this morning, because I agree with it. The acknowledgement from Pastor Haggard came later this afternoon.

You said, "He is certainly 'guilty' of whatever he has actually done, whether it is ever 'proven' or not. And whether 'proven' or not, if he has done them he no longer qualifies to be in leadership." I think I understand your perspective and point of view, here. What we do not know is what actually transpired, except for the report of Pastor Haggard's acknowledgment of buying the meth and receiving the massage. If those are the only two things he did, then I don't think there is any sin by MERELY buying meth or receiving the massage. If Pastor Haggard is willing to repent of those two items, then he should be restored in an appropriate matter.

However, if there are other discoveries that are official from the oversight board, then that's a different matter, and it will take longer for Pastor Haggard to be restored.

Regardless, I believe we need to hold out hope that Pastor Haggard can repent and be restored, although it does take time. We cannot say he is disqualified from leadership forever until we know ALL the facts, and we know Pastor Haggard's heart. Otherwise, we are being cold and unloving, and not pursuing this in a biblical manner.

[dust]

Krems, I understand and appreciate your heart here. And, I would want you on my side when I fall. Buying drugs is illegal, and a sin.

And, yes, let's get ALL the facts. I'm afraid they will come soon enough, but you are showing the right spirit.

[ginger1]

well, I do not think Ted Haggard will ever be restored to leadership. he can be restored as a christian but never to a leadership, somebody else would be appointed to that position. And I hardly find any would give that position up for Ted Haggard . It is sad that most christian in churches DO fight for position in Ministries and Churches. Once he is out, then he is gone. Whoever would take his position will not easily give that position up. That just a sad cold fact.

[jbkrems]

Dust: Merely buying drugs is illegal, but that does not make it a sin. It is a sin to USE drugs, and Pastor Haggard said he was only tempted, but never USED the meth.

Also, as a general statement, temptation does not equal sin. You might be tempted to take drugs, but that does not mean you have sinned. Same with porn, you can be tempted to look at it, but until you actually follow through and look at it, you have not sinned.

1 Cor. 10:13 says, "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it."

Ginger: Are you saying this because you do not think Pastor Haggard SHOULD be restored, or because you doubt Pastor Haggard WILL be restored, as a matter of fact???

In other words, I am seeking to clarify your statement, whether you are stating your opinion, or stating a prediction of how you think this will turn out???

It is not always so that once a leader is out, he is gone. Sometimes, but it always depends on the FACTS and the fallen person's heart, whether he is willing to repent, and so forth.

Finally, and this goes to everyone, I think there is a strong temptation to jump the gun and say, "Pastor Haggard's ministry is over, he'll be permanently disqualified," and so forth, and even to say that such a decision like that would be made by the pastoral oversight board. That's not the right approach. We need to pray for Pastor Haggard, his family, his church, and his accuser. We cannot really make these kind of judgments until we know ALL the facts, and until Pastor Haggard responds with his heart.

[jesusisawesome]

Hi Krems, I have been to New Life before, however, I currently don't attend there.

No, I was not trying to single out Ted Haggard. However, as a general rule, many times this happens with pastors. I am guilty of this myself. Case in point would be Phil Bonasso. Although God touched my heart as a child on many different occasions, I did not grow up in church. It was not until college that I learned what it was to have a relationship with God through Christ. This was through the Navigators, and I have to say, the couple that pastored me were a very Godly, humble, loving caring grounded couple. I received a great foundation. However in my zeal and naivety to try to serve God I was sucked into Maranatha (despite warnings that I received and didn't heed). I had concerns about Maranatha in the beginning, but pushed those aside. "Oh foolish Galatian, who hath bewitched you? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the spirit are you now being perfected by the flesh?" I received a great foundation and understanding of the cross of Christ through Navigators, but no understanding of the gifts of the spirit, and I hungered for that aspect . . . and Maranatha preached 100% commitment to God, which appealed to me.

[40days40years]

Why are all these guys falling into this sin? (not drugs). Paul Cain, Jim Baker, Roberts Liardon and now Haggard. I just don't get it.

[jbkrems]

JIA: Alright, thanks for your clarification, and I understand where you are coming from. I, too, received a great foundation from my pastors in St. Louis, but now I gladly attend a church that can build on it. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Ginger: Again, thanks for your clarification, I think you're idea is a bit prejudicial, as I explained to you in the e-mail, but we'll see how it pans out.

Now, about whether illegal conduct = sin, this is not necessarily so. Some illegal conduct is sin, e.g. murder, robbery, etc. However, not all illegal conduct is sin. For example, in Acts, the governing authorities in the early New Testament period made the preaching of the Gospel illegal, but THAT did not make it sin.

Thus, you cannot say that something is "sin on the basis that its illegal to buy one." What Pastor Ted Haggard may have been illegal, but it is not necessarily sin, unless he USED meth.

40: Its interesting you brought all these up. I'd like to look at these examples briefly.

Paul Cain: He has not yet been restored, but is still dealing with his issues.

Jim Bakker: He has returned and has been restored and is back in the ministry, preaching different places on an itinerant basis.

Roberts Liardon: It only took 3 MONTHS for this pastor to be back as the Senior Pastor of his chruch in California. Although he has lost the credibility and trustworthiness of most charismatics that I know, apparently that was NOT so of his church. That could possibly happen here... only time will tell.

[ginger1]

Krem, due to infighting of leadership in churches. Which is very common , even in EN. I do not think the church will make room for him to come back to leadership. That just my opinion. It has nothing to do with Haggard himself. He may and can be restored, I had no doubt about that.

It is still ILLEGAL to buy drugs, Krem. Whether he used it or not, it is still sin on the basis that its illegal to buy one.

[cupatea]

Krems said: "What Pastor Ted Haggard may have been illegal, but it is not necessarily sin, unless he USED meth. "

Whilst this is off topic and not about Christians as such it is interesting to note that according to Islamic teachings the sin is not just in the act. For a Muslim alcohol is haram (unlawful). But it is not just the one who drinks who is committing the sin. The one who made it, the one who sold it, the one who bought it, even the one who carried it to the house of the one who drinks it are all guilty of the sin. They all deserve the same punishment and all need to be restored to the right path.

Romans 13:1-5 says 1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

Seems to me fairly clear to it is a sin to do something that is not legal. EXCEPT in the case as outlined in Acts 5:27-29 which says 27Having brought the apostles, they made them appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 28"We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name," he said. "Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man's blood." 29Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men!

[jbkrems]

Cupatea:

There are some Christian teachings, also, that echo the fact that the sin is not just in the act. Clearly, if you are dealing with a temptation, and are in some kind of bondage (which is very possible in Pastor Haggard's situation), then there needs to be counseling, and there needs to be deliverance so that the person in bondage can be set free and restored.

However, in light of Romans 13, we're really dealing with two different sin issues. On one hand, there is the sin of actually using drugs. On the other, there is the sin of breaking the Colorado statute involved here. Clearly both need to be dealt with in the restoration process, but I would say the meth issue is more weightier.

So, I don't think breaking the law is clearly a sin, and using Romans 13, we really have two sins involved, one sin that is breaking the law, and the other POSSIBLE sin involving the meth, although I think that really was not a fully manifested sin, because Pastor Haggard threw the drugs away first, and did not USE them.

[40days40years]

cupatea I agree with the general gist of what your saying but what if Hitler is the authority in power, who established it? What if you live in the days of the ancient Romans and Greeks and almost every perversion is legal? I am biased against Islam, we tried prohibition and it was implemented by sincere Christians, it did not work but made the mafia strong. Just throwing some stuff out there to ponder it is not all that easy to figure out and I do believe in wrong and right and redemption to.

[cupatea]

4040: Clearly in the days of Hitler etc the laws implemented were contrary to the scripture. Then you have the need to stand up and obey God not man.

Krems: Whilst I agree with you primarily on your last post I'd like clarification on why you consider the using of meth a sin. You say "Clearly both need to be dealt with in the restoration process" - I agree there are the 2 issues and both need to be addressed.

4040: I throw stuff out there because they are the thoughts that immediately come to my mind. Krems was able to see parallels within Christianity so I leave it up to the HS to help others get from it what they will. I have a great love for the Muslim people and can see much to be redeemed in their beliefs. A common reaction from Muslims I have known come to Christ is that the Quaran gave them the outline and the Bible filled in the gaps. My ministry has been primarily among them and honestly I would prefer to sit with a Muslim and discuss things of God than many who call themselves Christian. Of course, I dialogue with them that they may know Jesus.

[forword]

Here is an irony...Ted Haggard just spoke at Bethel a little over a week ago.

http://www.itickets.com/events/155816.html

[forword]

A brief and candid interview with Ted Haggard by a local TV station

http://wm.kusa.gannett.edgestreams.net/news/1162580559552-11-03-06-haggard-interview-.wmv

[jbkrems]

Cupatea: The reason I said both need to be dealt with, but they need to be dealt with differently is this: Breaking the law as a sin signifies a lack of self-control, just think about driving deliberately over the posted speed limit, or running a red light. That is called a transgression.

However, using meth is something different than that. If what Pastor Haggard said today in the KUSA interview was correct, that he bought meth, but then threw it away, thus averting the sin of using meth, then there still is the TEMPTATION that needs to be dealt with. TEMPTATION is not a sin, per se, but usually the sign of another kind of problem, which we do NOT know here.

That's why there needs to be counseling involved, as I am sure Pastor Haggard is being counseled about that. Its not the dependency issue, so to speak, BUT, if Pastor Haggard was tempted to use meth, and that's apparent, then he probably has a deeper issue that really does not deal with meth in itself. Rather, he probably is under too much stress, and over-worked, and thus he cracked under pressure, looking for an escape OTHER than through Jesus. And that is a serious issue, that we should not look for an outlet to relieve stress in this world, but look to Jesus to relieve us from stress. I hope that makes sense. Its probable that is a key issue in this situation.

Are there further questions or clarification needed, or has that cleared up your thoughts?

[40days40years]

I know this is about Ted and his problems but cupatea Islamo fascism and the fear of these guys getting the bomb terrifies me. Your ministry is noble but living in CA like I do I have worked with nice muslims but I have worked with people from Pakistan who hate they are quite unsettling. Black eyes boring into you, hatred of India, hatred of the Saudis/Kuwaites, hatred of Israel, hatred of America especially American women, their upset when Saddam was attacked. Islam does not seem to be peaceful I wonder why some of these people were let into my country? They want me dead.

[cupatea]

"Temptation is not a sin" - this is a true statement. However I guess we will have to agree to disagree whether knowingly breaking a law of the land is a sin or not.

The only clarification I need now is why you think using meth is a sin (I agree it is) but from your point of view why is it?

[cupatea]

4040: I hear you. I have seen and felt the same things. It is by the grace of God that I love these people.

[jbkrems]

Cupatea:

I think breaking the law of a land IS a sin. I think we agree to that, I hope, given Rom. 13. If that was not clear before, I do think it is a sin. However, I think it is less of a weightier issue than the meth, as I explore in my post above (see #85).

As far as using meth (a drug), and why it is a sin, using meth is a sin because using any illicit substance as an escape or stress-reliever is a sin. The word for witchcraft in the Greek is pharmacaeia (sp?), which is the same root word we get pharmacy from in the English language. Illegal drug use is a sin for that reason. Is that clear now?

Finally, if Pastor Haggard did, in fact, only buy the meth, and then threw it away (didn't use it), he averted the temptation of the sin of using meth. He still sinned by buying meth, but only because buying meth is against the laws of the state of Colorado.

However, the more weightier issue is what brought on the temptation. Although the sin was averted and Pastor Haggard did not follow through and use meth, there still is the underlying issue of why he was tempted to do so, and that we do NOT know at this point, but will find out later, when the pastoral oversight board completes its investigation. Anything else right now is speculation, and gossip about this. We need to pray for all who are involved.

[40days40years]

cupatea I do agree that a pleasant muslim is very intriguing to talk to about things pertaining to God and very deep I understand, the few scary ones I meet I just don't see how the reasonable ones can stop them. Back to Ted I just don't see why this sin is so prevalent in leadership. Do gay men just seem to get to the top?

(Message edited by 40days40years on November 04, 2006)

[cupatea]

Krems: Spot on - thanks for spelling it out for me.

[robert_unknown]

"I think we agree to that, I hope, given Rom. 13. If that was not clear before, I do think it is a sin. However, I think it is less of a weightier issue than the meth, as I explore in my post above "

be carefull with this. some laws are sin in itself. think about the cummunist or islamic nations. in northkorea or saudi-arabia you break a law if you own a bible. is this a sin?
in sweden you break a law if you talk out against homosexuality ...

so whats sin? i think we shall not be confused, that the bible is "lex rex" ant not the secular laws.

[jbkrems]

Cupatea: You're welcome.

[jbkrems]

Robert:

Well, someone said that the big exception is found in Acts 5, and I tend to agree. I also think that some sins and issues are weightier than others, and have different root issues than others. Someone who compulsively speeds or runs red traffic lights really just needs a dose of self-control, while someone who deals with temptations of the kind Pastor Haggard has dealt with has deeper issues that really underlie the temptation, e.g. stress issues, too much pressure, etc. And that is a whole other ball of wax.

[robert_unknown]

sure.

and big part of the problem is, that in our culture, and perhaps specially in the american culture, leadership gets excalted too much. its like a star-cult. often against the intentions of the leaders themselves. this produces a lot of preasure to perform and a lot of temptation.

[40days40years]

Oh no Krems I hate to take up the freedom43 or whatever banner but she would say if you run red lights and speed you can kill someone with your vehicle and that is a big ball of wax compared to giving into temptation you were genetically destined for. Just the devils advocate doing his job.

[ginger1]

How does this affect EN by the way, especially Bethel.

[robert_unknown]

? what do you mean with "geneticaly designed for"? as far as i know there is no scientific evidence for a "genetical design" that defines your sexual preferences...

[40days40years]

I was taking the devils advocate position that I assumed freedom and FMP would stand for. I have heard FMP talking about enlarged hypothalamuses or something in gay mens brains. Hormones being released at the wrong times in the womb causing certain preferances to develop. I don't know look at the guy on TV that Haggard was involved with, how can that speach pattern be normal, something is very WRONG.

[jbkrems]

Robert: You might have a point there. That's why a lot of ministries, esp. the larger ones, are trying to decentralize. Even at my small church, one of our emphases (sp?) is that "church" should not be a one-man show where it is all about the senior pastor. This is why we have a plurality of leaders in our church, and where the only major responsibility of our senior pastor is to cast the vision for the church, and equip the saints for the work of the ministry... the congregation is to do the work of the ministry, and church eldership is charged to equip and train so that work can be done.

40: I have two things I need to share with you.

First, a former pastor taught me that running a red light, for instance, is a transgression, and basically its rooted in a lack of self-control. This can be dealt with different than a temptation regarding drugs.

Second, regarding which temptation I've been discussing, I am talking about the temptation to use meth, a drug. That is one kind of temptation, and it is NOT a genetic predisposition.

Even if I was discussing the temptation to engage in homosexual relations (and that is NOT what I believe happened), then I would STILL argue that such a temptation is NOT rooted in some kind of genetic predisposition, as Freedom43, and possibly yourself, would like to suggest. God does not genetically predispose people to have sexual preferences that are against what the Bible teaches, i.e., God does not genetically predispose people to be something other than heterosexuality. Is that clear???

Robert: I think I agree with you, God does not genetically design people to be gay or lesbian, that is against the Bible and against God's nature.

[40days40years]

Hey robert I saw a show where there were two twin brothers one played with guns and was an average boy, one colored his nails and played with girl stuff, genetically identical. Is the answer as simple as one had a big arsed demon jump into him? I DONT KNOW! what goes on or is going ON.

[jbkrems]

40: I completely agree with you. Thank you for clarifying the fact you were taking a position you do not support yourself.

I agree completely that something is wrong with Mike Jones, Pastor Haggard's accuser. In fact, it was reported today that he FAILED a polygraph this past morning... so he has ZERO credibility so far as I am concerned.

[40days40years]

krems I can say that homosexuality is a sin I get that and agree with it but what about the hormones in the womb stuff? What about those twins I saw on TV? I don't want to say it's o.k to be gay but what about those who are repulsed by the opposite sex?

[jbkrems]

40: Well, personally, I have not looked at this research myself. I think its dubious, actually.

Rather, I believe confidently that homosexual thought patterns are a conscious choice made by the individuals who choose to live in and engage in that kind of lifestyle. It is a bondage and it is demonic, which means there's a spirit behind it that needs to be cast out, so the homosexual person, whether gay or lesbian (or bisexual or transgender) can be set free and delivered.

And anyone who is "repulsed by the opposite sex" has some kind of demonic stronghold, seriously, such a thought is not natural, and somewhere the enemy came in like a flood to this person, and the person bought the lie. A lot of this is rooted in poor self-esteem and poor self-image. If people knew their identity in Christ before this happened, and stood therein, then they could resist this. Does that help anything, 40?

[speakword2004]

Krems

Does the NAE have any credibility with you?

http://www.nae.net/

"As evangelicals we recognize, however, the stark reality of the power of sin in all our lives, and acknowledge that we are all capable of grievous moral failures. Moreover, we believe that the Bible holds Christian leaders to higher levels of accountability. Therefore, it is especially serious when a pastor and prominent Christian leader deliberately violates God’s standards of conduct."


Just what do want? Let's pray for the poor man who bought the accusations as well. }

[40days40years]

Ginger this thread is about Haggard not Bethel and it appears this guy just preached at EN.

Like a gay Gomer Pile would say "surprise" "surprise" golly gee seargeant.
A funny story when I was a kid my older sister would be dragged off to piano practice when her favorite show would come on. Gomer Pile or however you pronounce it.

[speakword2004]

Krems

Does the NAE have any credibility with you?

http://www.nae.net/

"As evangelicals we recognize, however, the stark reality of the power of sin in all our lives, and acknowledge that we are all capable of grievous moral failures. Moreover, we believe that the Bible holds Christian leaders to higher levels of accountability. Therefore, it is especially serious when a pastor and prominent Christian leader deliberately violates God’s standards of conduct."


Just what do want? Let's pray for the poor man who bought the accusations as well. }

[40days40years]

Krems it helps a little. I guess I have a demonic stronghold desiring the attention of women that look like playmates or is that just natural and not demonic? I mean put yourself in their shoes.

[jbkrems]

Speakword: Sure, I have great respect for the NAE, I do not agree with all of their members doctrinally (because many in the NAE are non-charismatic), but they still do the ONE thing that ties all Evangelical Christians together (which includes charismatics), and that is wins the lost!

The NAE is absolutely accurate in its statement, but that does not mean we should pray for ALL who are involved in this situation, and that includes the accuser involved here, Mike Jones.

I believe we also should pray for God to give the pastoral oversight board wisdom and discernment in this matter. 1 Tim. 5:19 exhorts, "Do not receive an accusation against an ELDER, except on the basis of 2 or 3 witnesses." If Mike Jones is somehow not being truthful, and that is possible since he failed the polygraph on Thursday morning, then we need to pray that God would reveal that to the oversight board, because that is something they need to know to conduct an honest inquiry here.

Also, a note on the Bethel connection. The event this past weekend that was held at Bethel was NOT an EN event. Rather, it was a Battlecry Leadership Summit, sponsored by Ron Luce's Teen Mania Ministries of Garden Valley, Texas. I believe they chose Bethel for their venue because EN supports Teen Mania by sending their youth to "Acquire the Fire" rallys each year, and I'm sure some from Bethel also intern at Teen Mania HQ in Texas.

But Ron Luce is in no way affiliated with Bethel or EveryNation, and neither is Ted Haggard. If Pastor Haggard actually spoke on Sunday morning at Bethel's main service(s), then they were probably taking advantage of the fact he was in town for the conference that Teen Mania was sponsoring at Bethel, the host venue. This is a VERY common practice, actually, and is done in non-EveryNation churches that I am familiar with.

[jbkrems]

40: What do you want me to say here? I base my opinion and theology concerning this subject on the basis of the Word of God (the Bible) and not on what some scientist has concocted with his research.

I don't get your comment that you "have a demonic stronghold desiring the attention of women that look like playmates or is that just natural and not demonic? I mean put yourself in their shoes." --- What is your point with that comment, I really do not understand what you are trying to get at here.

[40days40years]

People who believe they are christian are repulsed by members of the opposite sex or at least are not attracted to them in the least. They desire people of the same sex to hook up with.

Come on JBK I feel like an idiot having to explain this to you. I feel humiliated.

[freedom43]

40/40: Oh no Krems I hate to take up the freedom43 or whatever banner but she would say if you run red lights and speed you can kill someone with your vehicle and that is a big ball of wax compared to giving into temptation you were genetically destined for. Just the devils advocate doing his job.

me: I don't have a banner. I'm not going to debate whether being gay is genetic or not. If Haggard had sex or sexual massages with someone besides his wife, I believe that is wrong, regardless of whether he was with a man or woman. I don't think orientation is the issue -- but infidelity. For the record, I never married. I took the celibate route instead.

I wonder if there is a genetic predisposition for being obnoxious -- just trying to figure out if you come by that naturally 40/40, i.e. why did you have to turn this into some kind of attack on FMP and me? Feeling the need to lash out and we the only "gays" you know?

What about people who believe they are Christian but routinely show fangs instead of the love of Christ?

[mcmstaff78]

Genetics are irrelevant regarding sinful acts. It's not the feelings of attraction toward members of the same sex, it is the sexual acts that are sinful. While (and this is extremely debatable) someone might be "born" with a propensity toward same sex attraction, one does not have to commit the acts. See, I'm attracted to members of the opposite sex, but if I act on that attraction sexually outside of a blessed marriage, I am sinning. I was born with a genetic propensity toward losing my temper, but fits of anger are sinful. Some, they say, are born with a genetic propensity toward alcoholism, but drunkenness is a sin.

Regardless of whether homosexual attraction is genetic or not (and the jury is a long way out on this), the acts are clearly proscribe in scripture and are sinful.

[forword]

I think we are all in agreement that to be tempted is in itself not a sin. I think we all also agree that to break the law of the land, if it is not in conflict with God's higher law, is also either a sin or lesser transgression.

However, the bigger issue here is that a man who is a Christian leader of great influence broke the law by purchassing illegal drugs. He didn't purchase meth from a vending machine, he had to buy it from a person...a person that he is witnessing to. And what was his witness? Its OK to do drugs. The person he purchased them from did not know he was going to throw them away (I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt here). He in effect said to this person, its OK to love God, be a pastor, and do illegal drugs.

This principle applies to every one of us. If I speak harshly and with anger to my waitress because she was too slow bringing me my food, I have just done the same thing...I've been a poor witness when I had the opportunity to show her the love of Christ. And this waitress might happen to visit my church next Sunday and see me...what is that going to say about Christians and the God we serve.

None of us are off the hook, myself or Mr. Haggard included. I want to be merciful to him because I want God to be merciful to me. But we also must deal in truth. So, we all need to be held accountable, but with mercy.

Proverbs 3:3-4
Let not mercy and truth forsake you;
Bind them around your neck,
Write them on the tablet of your heart,
And so find favor and high esteem
In the sight of God and man.

<font size="-2">New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.</font>

(Message edited by forword on November 04, 2006)

[freedom43]

Amen to Mercy, Forword.

I cry out for God's mercy and grace every day. Without it, I am nothing. And, with it, I am nothing but can somehow muddle through this life. Sorry, I know that's not the "more than conquerer" confession that I learned in Maranatha, but it feels more truthful/closer to reality. And, perhaps being more than a conquerer has to do with knowing God's love for us and that we are nothing without Him and His mercy and grace.

[robert_unknown]

@40 - i got your point.

@jonathan - i understand what you mean. in my opinion its strange if a ministry has to "decentralise". this shows me that it has already grown "wrong" to a certain level of unhealthy centralism. i understand that the intention is right, and that it is even a concern for the leaders. after all the years in HP and EN i have always heared "we dont build a one-man-show" or "we dont want to centralize". but strange enough exactly the oposite has happened.
i think that even a group of people can "centralze" a ministry around them.

heck - i have no idea about how a ministry can grow without wrong centralization-...

(Message edited by Robert_Unknown on November 04, 2006)

[matt_hatter]

free: And, perhaps being more than a conquerer has to do with knowing God's love for us and that we are nothing without Him and His mercy and grace.

This is so true. It is the thing Richard Foster calls the Copernican revolution of the heart, (Copernicus--the man who discovered that the earth was NOT the center of the universe) we begin to understand that it is His grace that makes us what we are, He is at the center!

Unfortunately, so many in the "look at our mega ministry" seem to fall into a trap of a pre-copernican thought process. The devastation left behind by this man's actions will be severe for those who have put his ministry, or him before the central love and grace of Christ.

[40days40years]

freedom43 trust me you wave a banner all the time and it is pretty obvious. We all have our banners and by the way my fangs are deeply retracted into my mouth. I was trying to be kind of supportive and if I wanted to be obnoxious I would do a better job than that. Your response is the best reason out there for keeping this topic in the closet. Lets go back to my youth when the Methodist minister talked about chirping birds and the nice sunrise or whatever. Ahhh the good old days when the air was clean and sex was dirty. Now that is obnoxious.

[40days40years]

I did word the part about people "who believe" their christian in the wrong way.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All
Matt well said, about and our relation to Christ. He is the center, we get "off" when we forget this, or were not taught or had that modeled for us.

Freedom, I think that you are right about being more than a conquer means us depending on Him. Thank you.}

[dust]

40 just gets nervous in a crowd....sometimes he doesn't say things the way he means them.

I think jon moseley showed us all that if we wanted to be mean, obnoxious....welll it's just not who we are really. What I do like about this board is the diversity and mess of it all. I thought today, this IS the Body of Christ, and Christ is here with us kinda helping us guard our hearts, mind our tongues.

Running to a newsboy song today, loved these words.

I am free to love....
I am free to dance.....

Great song.................

It's like with Christ, we are FREE to love those we wouldn't or couldn't love without him.

[freedom43]

To 40/40: Yes, I have been vocal and made my opinion known that I believe one can be gay and Christian. I didn't start that discussion; others did. Yes, I have addressed what I view as hypocrisy/a double standard when I see it -- i.e. that some on this board seem to have an obsession about homosexuality and treat it differently than other "sins." I didn't start those discussions either.

And, I didn't start this one. You did. Perhaps you need to re-think who's waving a banner here.

I must have misunderstood what you were trying to say earlier. It was rather cryptic. I thought you were saying that I would excuse Haggard's alleged behavior by saying he had a predisposition to homosexuality and that you were criticizing those who say you can be gay and Christian. I don't excuse his behavior. As I said above, I think infidelity is wrong. I think his alleged behavior is abhorrent. If he does consider himself gay, I think it is sad/wrong that he married a woman to begin with. There are apparently some men who have sex with men who do not consider themselves gay and "step out" on their wives. I don't get that and think it is disgusting and hurtful.

As I have said, there any many denominations who believe one can be gay and Christian and also be a minister. There are those who accept gays as believers but won't let them minister. And, there are those -- like Haggard's church, I presume -- who do not accept that one can be gay and Christian, much less a minister. But, as I have said, I don't think that is the issue here -- marriage vows are the issue to me -- and possible drug use/abuse.

Dust: I like your song...I am free to love....I am free to dance.

[robert_unknown]

the bible calls every sexual action outside of marriage (and we know HOW bible defines marriage) as "porneia", and it calls "porneia" sin.

but back to Haggard.

if it is true what jiones say, then it is a big blow against the evangelicals credibility in moral issues, specially in the issue about homosexuality.

if is wrong, and its true, what haggard says, he should ALSO be dismissed from his leadership position. it shows a great lack of responsability for a minister to buy drugs from a gay prostitute! how shall i as christian understand what he was thinking to do, or that what he did was somehow ok?

i think HE himself shall show greatness and forget about ministry by himself.

but thats only my five cents.

[40days40years]

Okay freedom I should have left you out of this but there is no way that I would think you would condone Haggards behaviour irregardless of what his preferences are.

The subject does interest me though, is there a gentetic component? Then the question is even if there is not a gentetic component is there a hormonal component. FMP has posted extensively on hormones in the womb affecting the development of a child. Like I said there are twins where one is straight one is gay, did one get sick and get a differant amount of hormones? In the charismatic community the answer is usually, it's a demon or an early childhood experience changed someone.

In latin countries it is fairly common for gay men to marry and have families and have a secret life on the side.

Krems, Haggard has already admitted that stuff was going on that should not have and some of what that witness says is true.

[40days40years]

One more thing freedom I do think my obnoxiousness is genetic at times same with Ginger my friend. My father was almost killed by his pony when he got mad at it and bit its ear. My grandfather got mad at some carnival workers that were ripping off people with their hustling games and told people to stay away, he had to fight a bunch of them off with a 2' by 4'. Yeah it's the genes I am not guilty.

[freedom43]

Thank you 40 for the clarification and thanks, Robert.

I don't have issue with how pornia has been translated, but there seems to be a lot of debate about the meaning of malakoi and arsenokoitai. And, to be clear, Jesus never used those or any other word remotely translated as "homosexuality." But, he did say, if you LUST in your heart, you have already committed adultery. So, it's not just about sexual actions. It's about what's on the inside, right? And, as 40/40 has pointed out -- for whatever reason, some folks seem predisposed to "those thoughts." So, if one never acts on them and does one's best to control one's thoughts -- but fails, what does that mean? You'd still be an adulterer according to Jesus. Would you not inherit the kingdom of heaven, per Paul in 1 Corinthians 6?

40 -- I've heard of that too in Latin countries and also in the African-American community -- on the down low, they call it.

[formermaranathapastor]

This is a tragic event not only for Ted, but especially for his wife and children. I agree with others that he must come clean and honestly explain the truth to his family, friends and church.

I also agree that circumstances which contribute to events like this are the pressures of a public ministry, and having no friend to rely on or be honest with. Pastors are scared to be honest because it leads to them losing their ministry and livelihood. I am not saying it is wrong to remove a pastor caught in sin, I am just saying that the system we see in most denominations and church structures, does not major on love and reconciliation, but on judgement. So rightly or wrongly pastors are scared to admit sin to anyone.

The issue of hypocrisy also is relevant. This is not the first time nor the last where a leader who preached against homosexuality was found to be involved in the very thing he preached against (Allegedly yes?). Before I pounce on Ted for his sin, I guess I need to look at my life to see if I am consistent with my beliefs and actions in all things. Oops, perfect consistency is a diificult thing!

And lastly, I believe the great sin of the church in the issue of homosexuality is condemning gay marriage AND condemning domestic partnership benefits. I can understand conservative Christians being against gay marriage, but how is it loving the homosexual to forbid them some of the basic benefits of loving relationships? You know, like visiting their partner in the hospital, having inheritance rights, and survivorship benefits. I submit that denying them that is cruel and unChristian.

[40days40years]

Wow I tried to post this a few minutes a go but the ghost would not let me.

You know maybe Haggard wanted to be caught or wanted out? This thing does not make sense. Most gay people tend to have a liberal bias or at least some anger at right wing political or religous activists who oppose gay marriage. Guys like Foley and Haggard kind of amaze me in that they should know that their going to be outed by those who are gay and consider them hypocrites. The total lack of judgement and self preservation on Haggards part is kind of amazing.

[jbkrems]

40: I give up. I'm not gonna discuss this with you any longer, since I cannot understand your thinking.

I do want to make one thing clear, before I respond to everything else. If you claim to be a Christian, and are engaged in an "alternative lifestyle," be it gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, or something else, then you really are NOT a Christian. There is NO such thing as a gay Christian, or a lesbian Christian.

mcmstaff: For once we agree, homosexual acts are forbidden in the Scriptures.

Forword: You have a very good point about waitresses and the rest of us. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Robert: Decentralization is usually a good thing, then, in my opinion because it is un-doing too much centralization and "one-man show." I think in WOF circles we've created a mentality over the years that there is the "man of God," and you can go to him as a faith healer, or a financial prosperity guru, and get your needs met. That's wrong and borderline idolatry, and its also not biblical. It is making man, in fact, the source, when God is the Source.

Further, the Bible is very clear that signs and wonders and miracles are to follow EVERY believer, and not just those who stand behind a pulpit, or who are in five-fold ministry. Someone who is in five-fold ministry, absolutely, should have signs and wonders in his ministry, but it should not be restricted to that, because EVERYONE should have signs and wonders follow them according to Mark 16.

Dust: The song "I Am Free" is not a Newsboys song. They did it as a cover, actually. Coincidentally, the original author goes to New Life in Colorado Springs. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

40: I know that. All we know is that Haggard bought meth and received a massage. We do not know whether the massage was sexual in nature or not. We do not know anything else. So we should not be assuming stuff happened, when its possible it did not.

FMP: I agree with your assessment, except the last paragraph. We need to speak out against gay marriage and DP benefits, etc. Anything outside heterosexual marriage is wrong. However, what you said in your first 3 paragraphs was good. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[jbkrems]

This just in...

Fox News reported, and New Life Church's website confirms...

http://www.newlifechurch.org/pressrelease110606.pdf

[40days40years]

Well jbk you are entertaining and I am not involved with an alternative lifestyle and am not gay but I am not God and will try not to presume to tell someone because they struggle with this stuff they are not christian even though homosexuality is something to be avoided. Krems you are the one who's logic I find a little baffling http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif. On the one hand your coming down with a strict message but then you turn around and bend over backwards to give Haggard the benefit of the doubt and the guy was seeing a gay prostitute and getting massages at least and he is a married man. That is not normal heterosexual behaviour. Yeah, yeah I know the board is having a good laugh.

[jbkrems]

40:

OK, let me clarify something else. There is a BIG difference between a Christian who is struggling with homosexuality, because of temptations and the like, and between someone who claims to be Christian, and who is engaged in the gay lifestyle, and openly flaunts his homosexuality at the same time. I am speaking of the latter, here, 40.

[jbkrems]

40:

OK, let me clarify something else. There is a BIG difference between a Christian who is struggling with homosexuality, because of temptations and the like, and between someone who claims to be Christian, and who is engaged in the gay lifestyle, and openly flaunts his homosexuality at the same time. I am speaking of the latter, here, 40.

[ginger1]

Ted Haggard is dismissed. And they did found him guilty of both, drugs and sex. I really do not know how they investigate this. But I do applaud the church for its Transparency and Openess unlike EN , who still trying to hide their sins and illegal activities. Ted haggard church literally practice what the bible said how to discipline a leader of a church.

expose their sin , so the people will have some fear of it. Unlike EN, their confession of sins is a joke. Nothing specific.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061105/ap_on_re_us/haggard_sex_allegations

[ginger1]

Ted Haggard sound like Clinton, He inhale but did not swallow.

[jbkrems]

Ginger:

I agree in part with what you wrote, and I disagree in part. To be clear, the church board found Haggard guilty of "sexual immoral conduct," but one of the pastors on this board REFUSED to charcterize what was meant by that phrase. Ted Haggard said he received a massage (perhaps it was sexually-motivated), but never actually engaged in homosexual sex with Mike Jones.

I do agree with you that New Life Church should be applauded for its transparency and openness, and that New Life Church does practice what the Bible says concerning disciplining those in leadership by exposing the sin and causing those in the congregation to fear the Lord.

I disagree with you, and find it disrespectful, to compare Ted Haggard with former Pres. Clinton. Not only is that possibly factually inaccurate, but it is offensive and disrespectful to Ted Haggard and his family, as well.

[ginger1]

Jbkrem, I spoke with my husband and he explained it to me. Thats how I arrived on my conclusion. First. He is meeting this man for 3 years. So you can't tell me that he only got a "massage".
Second, the man ONLY advertise in Gay magazine. The hotel does did not promote it as Haggard said. So this means Haggard lied.
Third The church find him to be guilty of sexual immoral conduct. And we know for a fact that its not his wife they are talking about. If there is no sex act happened, then its not a Sexual immoral conduct. Just immoral conduct.

fourth, my husband used to take drugs before he got born again . He explained this to me, Meth is a HARD CORE drugs. NOBODY experiment Meth. People who want to experiment drugs, they start with POTS. Meth is too hardcore, its only used by people who are already addicted to pots or familiar with pots.

The reason why I compare him with Clinton is that His excuses is similar to Clinton. He tries to "lighten" his sins. People who are caught would make up excuses and try to explain that they are not really deep into that.

My husband also explained to me in regards to Clinton. Clinton could have be telling the truth, because pots does not taste good, its icky and hard to swallow. This is for people who are first timers or new to drugs. Though it sounds goofy but he could be telling the truth.

But with Haggard, I feel bad for his family, especially with his kids and his wife. With his kids, I feel bad that now his kids will be ridiculed at school. While his wife, her trust is broken plus she is humiliated . Knowing her husband does not love her and is interested on something else. That will take a long time to recover. Something I will never wished on anyone. Not even on my enemy.

[ginger1]

I find Ted Haggard to be extremely selfish. He did not even stop and think about his family when He made a decision to commit this immoral act. There are people who would sin, then they would stop because they knew if they continue on , there are lives that would be destroyed. Ted Haggard DID NOT STOP, but it went on for 3 YEARS ! He only thought of himself, even in his own confession, he still is thinking of himself. Even in his own confession he said that he told the hotel to get Jones ? When the hotel said that they do not do this kind of a thing.
He got caught lying right there.
If he would just give the whole truth. Instead of half truth. We really do not know what went on in those three years. But one thing we do know. Ted Haggard LIED. So he is capable of lying about what really went on. He is capable of lying that he did not slept with Jones and He is also capable of lying that he did not do meth.
I believe because he was caught lying his church has to come hard on him. He won't be restored. This time its between him and God.
As for his family, his kids needs a lot of prayers and Compassion, when Jim Bakker went to prison, his son backslid and did drugs. Hopefully , there are people who are compassionate enough to Ted Haggard kids.

[jbkrems]

Ginger: You and your husband are really speculating on what could POSSIBLY be the truth, but we do not know for sure.

The allegations included that Haggard knew this guy for 3 years... Haggard has denied this, and New Life Church has not even said this is true. Maybe Haggard got more than a "massage," (and I think that's likely), BUT... that does not mean Haggard knew this guy for 3 years.

Second, just because this man said he only advertised in gay magazines does not mean that is true. One of the BIG issues here is that Mike Jones has LITTLE credibility... he failed a lie detector test, in both the areas of drugs AND sex. In fact, he failed the polygraph a SECOND time, as well, because he took a 2nd exam on Friday, and that he failed. So, you cannot take the accuser's word for it. We ALSO do not know whether Haggard has lied, either.

Third, the church DID find him guilty of sexually immoral conduct... to me, this means something more than just a "massage," but LESS than full sexual intercourse. It could mean some kind of sexual foreplay, which would constitute "sexually immoral conduct."

Fourth, your husband's own experience is no reason to judge or come to conclusions about Haggard. You cannot impose your own experience, or your husband's experience on Haggard.

Fifth, I do not think Haggard has tried to "cover up," or "lighten" his sins. Unlike Clinton, Haggard is a humble person, and is willing to submit to the decision of his church. He put himself on administrative leave... he voluntarily resigned. And he agreed to a permanent resignation when he was asked today, believing that was appropriate church discipline. This is a sign of real humility, and not someone who is trying to "lighten" his sins.

Sixth, I do feel bad for his wife and kids, but not necessarily for the same reasons that you do. Haggard has brought reproach on his family, his church, and the Kingdom of God. But this does not mean his kids will be ridiculed at school (for all we know, they are home schooled), and so far as his wife, we really do not know her true feelings.

Finally, I think your judgment of Haggard to be a selfish person is rather harsh. We really do NOT know whether this has occurred for over 3 years, as his accuser says, and we really do NOT know what Haggard actually DID. We do know he bought meth, and so far as Haggard has confessed, he threw it away, and DID NOT USE IT. He DID STOP there, by NOT USING meth.

Further, there is going to be a healing and restoration process... the church has said so in its own press release. He will not be Senior Pastor again, though. And as regards to his kids, I am almost positive that the children's pastors at New Life are really going to be counseling them, and helping them... there are a lot of resources available there for them. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[robert_unknown]

"You know, like visiting their partner in the hospital, having inheritance rights, and survivorship benefits."

i believe these things should be without question. i mean sexual orientation should not be a qualification to wheter one is able to visit someone in hospital or to inherit.

the problem is that in all this political correctness, and the secular world does NOT have love for the gays, the motives behind it are others, the pendulum goes to an extreme. in vienna the city gouvernment SEEKS for gay partners to give them children from dysfunctional families. no THATS just foolish!

and i agree with freedom that lustfull thoughts are already sin. i do however believe that Jesus wanted to give us help with resisting porneia, by explaining that the thing starts already in the thoughts, and that the thoughts are already the battlefield. its easier to resist a thought than to resist IN the situation.

---

question: WHY does someone like Tedd Haggard need to buy drugs from a gay prostitute?
is it not possible to get drugs nearly everywhere?

[robert_unknown]

i mean :

1- why drugs at all?
2- why drugs FROM a gay prostitute?

[40days40years]

I tend to agree with Ginger assuming the info about the hotel is accurate. Most normal hotels in Colorado will not summon a prostitute for you (especially gay prostitutes) and does this make sense for a famous church leader to try to go through the hotel to get hooked up? This sounds like a lie and if he was in a hotel that provided this type of service? what was he doing in that type of place? Haggard most likely saw this guys add and called. Haggard does not appear to be a very good at telling lies. Meth is a hardcore speed drug, it does more damage to your brain in 6+ mos then very heavy drinking does in 20 years.

Many like myself do not belive in the accuracy of lie detector tests, some who are guilty pass them some who are innocent fail them. Lie detector tests measure stress and I believe Haggards accuser may have been under stress, so maybe he is telling half truths to? Still he is involved with this guy and I think Haggard is telling a lot of half truths. Those poor kids of his, the stigma attached to this??

Ginger says he is through in the ministry and Krems says he can be restored. We will see I am sure he can write a best selling book in the future.

[jbkrems]

Robert: If you do not have a will, and you have a surviving spouse in America, there can be survivorship rights.

However, if someone is a homosexual, then their "partner" would be legally excluded, because there is no domestically recognized marraige. This may be different in your country, but the law in America says that unless the state has recognized the marriage, then a gay partner is excluded legally from receiving survivor benefits upon death. And this is so long as the person dies without a will.

40: The hotel was in Denver, and Haggard could have been visting that city for a conference, and staying in a hotel there.

I do not believe in the accuracy of lie detector tests, either, but Mike Jones failed it TWICE, both on Thursday, and on Friday. At least in the second testing, the test administrator said that Jones' answers indicated "deception," and this has been reported to the national news media.

Finally, when I said Haggard can be restored, I didn't mean to the level of Senior Pastor. He can be restored, but I don't know the level of ministry that he might be able to reach given the current situation.

[robert_unknown]

I think Jones is driven by other intentions than by a concerne for truth! to be honest.
its not a coincidence, that this accusations are exactly at this time! i personally do not exclude the possibility of deception from Jones side!

but this does not solve the questions about the massage and about drugs. why the heck does a man like haggard not go into a fitness studio? did the hotel not offer something like this?

its very confusing everything, and Haggard should be as honest as possible! the whole thing is a big damage for the reputation of evangelical christianity. Haggard should be VERY concerned about telling all the facts, so that this thing can get solved as soon as possible!

[40days40years]

Gotcha Krems on the restoration thing.

From just a very basic visceral level this Mike Jones guy talks in a very effeminate way and a normal straight guy would not allow himself to receive a massage from somebody who is obviously very gay. You can go to plenty of masseuses or chiropracters and get a massage that is socially acceptable.

One thing I disagree with Ginger on is that a top EN leader most likely could not get away with behaviour like Haggards, maybe other sins but not this.

[40days40years]

robert, Mike Jones has admitted that upcoming elections did play a big part in why he did what he did. He saw Haggard on television and then found out that he was against gay marriage which will be voted on soon.

There is a large drug culture in the gay community where people take differant types of drugs to enhance their physical experiences. Meth is a type of speed and speed is a performance enhancing drug that is why amphetamines are banned in professional bike racing for instance.

Krems I am sure that Denver can be a wild place but Haggard does seem to be a Hilton, Sheraton, Hyatt....etc. type of guy. I am sure you have been in those kinds of hotels and know how they operate.

[jbkrems]

Robert: Oh, I absolutely agree with you that Haggard had no business seeking meth, let alone from someone he possibly could have known was a gay prostitute.

I think there is a lot we do NOT know here, and probably a lot that is disturbing. But I think it is HIGHLY disrespectful to speculate as to what happened, when we do not know the facts. We need to pray for Haggard, his family, and his congregation, as well as for his accuser. We need to realize that until Haggard comes forth and is honest, all of this is mere speculation.

40: I absolutely agree with you on all accounts in your most recent post. No leader should get away with whatever Haggard did, regardless of what that is, or could be.

[robert_unknown]

"We need to realize that until Haggard comes forth and is honest, all of this is mere speculation. "

well - thats his own fault. he should have known, that a man in his position will produce a lot of speculation with this kind of behaviour, even if it was as "inocent" as he says...

however - i think everyone here is concerned and everone here is praying. i really do hope that all specualtions are false, but i would not wonder if not.

my point is only this: people are fallible. christian leaders are fallible. we should stop putting them on a podest. and we should find better ways to achieve more acountability for them. and real help, before it is to late...

[jbkrems]

40: Yes, although concierges do not always have the best information available, even in well-rated hotels. Plus, the hotels you mention can hire gay masseuses for their health centers, and some probably DO that for fear of a lawsuit. It is a really sad issue.

Robert: I agree, but we have a responsibility not to gossip and speculate.

Do you think Haggard was on a pedestal, and if so, why???

[robert_unknown]

no one is gossiping!
people are concerned. thats a difference!

i think every big christian leader in america is on a pedestal more or less. and i dont think it is necessarily the fault of the leaders (well - without some exceptions, perhaps...)...

[40days40years]

Well jbk I would want you on my jury. The evidence is in Haggard is struggling with homosexual issues. If he met this guy more than once I think it is obvious we have left the land of speculation and entered into the land of facts.

[robert_unknown]

a man like Haggard can easily proof his innocence in this case. i am sure he has a diary for the last years. so he can easily proof that he has not been in this particular town at the particular times, if he sues Jones or vice versa...

should be very easy to provide an "alibi"!

[jbkrems]

Robert: Please here me. Speculation is what is going on, and it is borderline gossip, which is a sin.

People here on the Boards are drawing conclusions based on different things, other than the FACTS. Case in point is Ginger, and her conclusions, which she bases in part on her own experience, and the experience of her husband. Drawing those kinds of conclusions and making those kinds of judgments is WRONG and NOT loving. In fact, its disrespectful.

Thanks for clarifying you're pedestal point. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[jbkrems]

40: We don't know if he met the guy more than once. We don't know what kind of hotel this massage was given in, rather it was a Hyatt or something else.

Robert: He might have a journal/diary, but that does not mean this stuff is documented or not.

[frankenchrist]

The bit about "throwing away the meth" was hilarious. Haggard is so arrogant. Does he really think anyone is stupid enough to believe that line of crap?

Anyway cheers!

I'm celebrating with a little burgandy!

Another one bites the dust!

Another one bites the dust!

and another is gone and another is gone,

Another one bites the dust!

[40days40years]

but jbk Ginger does have a point. This Mike Jones guy said he does not ask how people find out about him but that he only advertises in gay ads. I mean it is pretty easy to discern ads you read.

[robert_unknown]

"Robert: He might have a journal/diary, but that does not mean this stuff is documented or not."

but if Jones comes up with dates and times - and he will have to do this, if Haggard takes legal action (which would be understandable) or if the public/ media wants facts - than he can easily proof that he has not been in this town at this time. you know what i mean?

(Message edited by robert_unknown on November 05, 2006)

[40days40years]

Here is something http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15548841/site/newsweek/

So maybe Haggard was referred.

Lets roll back the clock 60 years. Why not? society would be better off and it would benefit everybody.

[wayfaring_stranger]

Thanks for posting this:

"As evangelicals we recognize, however, the stark reality of the power of sin in all our lives, and acknowledge that we are all capable of grievous moral failures. Moreover, we believe that the Bible holds Christian leaders to higher levels of accountability. Therefore, it is especially serious when a pastor and prominent Christian leader deliberately violates God’s standards of conduct."

I was just about fed up with the Christian life with all the stuff (I was even at the point that I had felt that I lost faith in Christ) that I had read stating that one should not expose things. But this has helped and I am right back where I began.

I really, really, don't thing it was so much the accuser that exposed this as it was God that allowed it to be exposed. God will wrestle and wrestle with us and if we do not listen - eventually, WE DO OURSELVES in. It is not really the accuser. It is the stupid actions that people take to put themselves in a vulnerable place because when it is sin - there is going to be death. One can throw back at the other - oh, you are accusing or oh, you must be spiteful or mentally ill (as some often do when they have been indiscreet) or vengeful but that's not so much the case.

Dust,

The single thing that strikes me here, is that people get into position and sin gravely and continue that sin because the people close to them cannot or willnot speak up. I think this has to be a part of the reform of every church, a value system that has integrity.

Amen, and amen. Sometimes people close also get caught up with the situation and become part of the problem. I pray that all in such a situation realize that there actions perpetuate the situation. I personally believe that I would sacrifice my own reputation etc. to expose the works of satan. (This would be true even if I were also in the wrong and became convicted about the situation.) This touch not my anointed stuff does have a basis but some people take it way too far.

When someone is in a position of spiritual leadership there is a lot of room for abuse, opportunities to lie and manipulate, etc. It has become increasingly obvious to me that such individuals need to be exposed, lovingly and in the right method but they need to be exposed. And if there is not an opportunity for it to occur in the manner described in the Bible (going first to the person, and then to a few, etc.) God will often allow the exposure to occur in another way.

God help all of us not find ourself in a position of a wolf in sheep's clothing. Such need to be exposed and if I ever found myself in such a position - I would pray, for my own good, that I would be exposed so I could repent and get back on the right road.

(Message edited by Wayfaring Stranger on November 05, 2006)

[matt_hatter]

W_S: "I was just about fed up with the Christian life with all the stuff (I was even at the point that I had felt that I lost faith in Christ) that I had read stating that one should not expose things. But this has helped and I am right back where I began."

May I recommend a book that has helped tremendously with issues like this?

Reaching for the Invisible God
Phllip Yancey

A wonderful read for all who are sometimes scratching their spiritual scalps...

[wayfaring_stranger]

Thank you so much - that sounds great and a confirmation of a "line" that I have been impressed with lately.

"Anything essential is invisible to the eyes."

The Little Prince - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

[jbkrems]

40: Something sounds dubious about this Mike Jones guy. I read the first page of the interview transcript, and it didn't sound right. Something sounded very "off," so to speak.

[wayfaring_stranger]

Mar 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

[matt_hatter]

Yancey has a transparency that is refreshing in today's superstar religious world. He got me from the get-go with these words in the preface:

I have written the book in a progression from doubt to faith, which recapitulates my own pilgrimage. For those leery of spirituality, or perhaps scarred by bad church experiences, I suggest reading as far as you can, then stopping.

Now what modern writer is gonna tell you that? With most, it is "buy the Red Book, then buy the Green Book" ad naseum...it is refreshing hearing someone write with brutal honesty about himself and the struggles we all have (if we are honest like you Stranger) relating at times to an Invisible God.

[maranatha1984]

All one has to do is to read About David- and what happened to him...JIA is correct- there is not one righteous not one...all of us like sheep has gone astray.

Lets face it the point is that T Haggard WAS put on a pedestal, and allowed himself to be. Same with Rice, Phil et al.

Contrast this with Billy Graham who never ministers alone, has never allowed himself to be alone with a female other than his wife or daughter- who max salary and income, total, was/is $ 120k /year...who when asked WHY he has had such success and why God chose him answers

"I have no idea and it will be the first thing I ask God"

If I were going to summarize the whole board and its purpose it would be "Man can never be in control"

There are many people I think about from MCM who were blessed with talent...one I think about often was Greg Ball- as I have written I think Greg would have been better served if he had been surrounded by men of humility who truly understood the whatever success they had was not from being a champ or a mighty man- or striving- but due solely to Gods mercy and grace.

A lesson I need to hear daily BTW.

John sent me a book called Ragamuffin Chrisitanity which expound this point.

Matt what you wrote about the Red Book...right on

Tikie

[40days40years]

You know Billy Grahamcracker is highly over-rated! This guy is now recommending Hillary Clinton as Prez. He has gone soft just like Barry Goldwater when exposed to young liberal female flesh. How dare Billy Graham talk this crap now! He will be in glory soon and he wants to leave us with a DEMON witch running my precious country?

[wayfaring_stranger]

Good points - humility is very important and accountability is oh so necessary. I wish I had more of an accountability system in my own life.

God, my desire is for you to put more people like that in my world. I desperately need that right now. I understand that you allow us to be in pits for your purposes but please don't forget me - bring some my way that will affirm your will for my life and model humility, love, and honesty and can look at the truth from the perceptions of all God's children.

Sorry if I seem to get off topic but it certainly is related as it relates to my own life.

[wayfaring_stranger]

Any of us can fall and take the wrong path at any point in our lives. That is why we should desire to be exposed ourselves, privately if possible and more publicly as needed.

Still, we should do this as lovingly as we can - try to take out the personal issues and be as objective as we can. That's how we would want others to treat us.

Lord, I just want to go home. It's not so much that I'm suicidal - this world is just not my home and I want out.

[40days40years]

wayfaring_stranger what cult did you drop out of? You seem to nice for this place. My first reaction is to say GO AWAY but I would like to know more about you??? God Bless

[matt_hatter]

W S, I can only say I am blessed by your honesty and transparency. It is not advice you need, for in many ways you have it figured out. You are at a place of longing for the Master. He is here with us on this sometimes vicious orb we inhabit and will comfort us with His grace and charity as long as we are here.

He came to make an abode with us...that means a home...a warm living room with a fireplace and my wool buckskin slippers in my mind.

[flo1151]

Matt,

So your doghouse has a fireplace? I would like to see that. W.S. this is an ongoing joke with Matt and him being in his doghouse. Enjoyed your post.

Our Georgia Bulldogs are definetly in their doghouse today. Won't be out till next season.

[matt_hatter]

I went to the PTL bankruptcy sale in 1980? and picked up that beaut that belonged to Jim and Tammy's dog, Denarius.

Can't get used to drinking out of the gold dog bowl, but other than that, it makes a pretty good crib.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All
Welcome Wayfaring S. Thank you for your posts. I can see your journey in your words. It is a blessing to see your heart for Christ. I think you are correct, if we do not humble ourselves, and as God is our lovingly Father. He will not out of love let us go too far without showing us our ways. He wants us to return to Him , to His Grace. It is unfortunate to be disclosed in public, but it does effect the body to cling to the true head of the Church for healing and a home.


ON a lighter note, it appears that some here like doghouses; they must serve some purpose.}

[matt_hatter]

From Haggard's letter:
"The fact is I am guilty of sexual immorality. And I take responsibility for the entire problem. I am a deceiver and a liar. There's a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it for all of my adult life," he said.

I will say one thing for the guy, he doesn't seem to be sugar coating it now that he has been caught. It does make one wonder, however, if he has been warring against it all his adult life, it would appear to me that some close to him would know this. Why didn't someone help him? Did he reject the help? Who knows...

Again, Dust your words come back to me:

"The single thing that strikes me here, is that people get into position and sin gravely and continue that sin because the people close to them cannot or will not speak up."

[wisedove]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Why are all these guys falling into this sin? (not drugs). Paul Cain, Jim Baker, Roberts Liardon and now Haggard. I just don't get it.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Hi, all. trying to catch up. will be able to post more thoughts later..
40- you asked that way up in the thread. I don't know if anyone else responded this way, but it's called
DECEPTION. Bottom line. Sin is progressive.
Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 2004, QuickVerse, a division of Findex.com, Inc.


James 1:13 - 15 (MSNT) 13Let no one say when passing through trial, “My temptation is from God;” for God is incapable of being tempted to do evil, and He Himself tempts no one. 14But when a man is tempted, it is his own passions that carry him away and serve as a bait. 15Then the passion conceives, and becomes the parent of sin; and sin, when fully matured, gives birth to death.

All of us, being part of a sin nature, are capable of falling into sin and being deceived. I also agree with what Ginger said about putting pastor's and leaders on a pedastal. God will remove all leaders that are in sin.

[wisedove]

I feel sad about this whole situation. At the same time, I see this as a wake-up call to the Body of Christ to keep your eyes on the Lord, not on man. Also, for ministries to put Christ as Head of the Church and not man.

[j2theperson]

I have a question. Does is really matter if Mike Jones' decision to come forward with these allegations is politically motivated? And would the people who have been harping on that point be similarly troubled if Jones was a Republican and Haggard a Democrat?

Whether politically motivated or not, Mike Jones has, thus far, proved to be the more honest of the two men. Haggard started out denying all of the accusations, going so far as to claime that he didn't even know Mike Jones. Now, however, not only has he admitted knowing Mike Jones, but buying drugs and committing "sexual immorality", finally stating "There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I've been warring against it all of my adult life."

What does political motivation matter? The accusations have been and are being proved true, which is the imporant thing.

From a personal standpoint, I know that if there was an issue I cared passionately about and there was a prominent opponant of that issue whom I knew to be hypocritical and I had damning proof of that hypocrisy, I would not necessarily speak out at once but would wait for the dramatic moment when I thought my accusations would have the most impact. That's just common sense.

It sucks when you're on the losing side of such a manuever, but that doesn't mean that it's wrong or offensive for a person to allow politics to influence their actions.

[freedom43]

I can understand the desire to expose hypocrisy, but I still don't see this affecting how Colorado voters vote on the same-sex marriage issue. Additionally, the implication is that the "dark and repulsive" part Haggard is talking about is same sex attraction (and/or drugs); so it doesn't seem that this would affect his personal politics either.

So, I'm not sure what Jones has achieved if he were seeking politcial gain, but he at least has gotten someone he viewed as a hypocrit out of the pulpit.

[frankenchrist]

In that Jones decided to go through with the public outing of Haggard because Haggard was preaching against gays and having gaye seks demonstates that, to some extent, the act was politicaly motivated. I read the interview with Jones and he does not seem like a politicaly astute individual. He didn't know Haggard's actual identity for quite a while -- suggests that Jones was not keeping up with the latest in politics.

I agree with Jones in his observation that Haggard can't have it both ways. One has the right to engage in gaye seks. One has the right to express hatred and oppression toward gay people. But if one is doing both -- there's is something seriously wrong with that. Haggard is arrogant -- that's the best way to describe it. He thinks he is above the rules and can do whatever he wants -- cult leaders always do think they are special.

Why are the drugs being ignored? Haggard is lying about throwing away the meth and not using it. Meth is a very bad drug. Highly ilegal. Haggard is supporting the meth trade. Hey, I don't care who Haggard gets all cuddly with, that's his business but when he supports a drug industry that is destroying people's lives and killing them -- different matter.

Put Haggard in jail.

[pilgrim]

I had just found this on the internet today while I was reading something else.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-haggard-sex-allegations,0,7703911.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines (http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-haggard-sex-allegations%2C0%2C7703911.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines)



Ted Haggart confessed the following according to the news in the above website.
"The fact is I am guilty of sexual immorality. And I take responsibility for the entire problem. I am a deceiver and a liar. There's a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it for all of my adult life," he said.

[robert_unknown]

@matt_hatter
can you please provide a source/ link to the quotaition:

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

From Haggard's letter:
"The fact is I am guilty of sexual immorality. And I take responsibility for the entire problem. I am a deceiver and a liar. There's a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it for all of my adult life," he said.
<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

[dust]

I'm just so disturbed by this.....I can't stop thinking about it..

Ted Haggard did try to fight this desire. It's not as simple as saying "gay" there is a lust issue here. His encounters as described by Mike Jones were brief, under one hour, and non-emotional. It looks like Ted Haggard's FIGHT against homosexuallity was a fight against himself and he chose to process it or deal with it on the political/religious arena. This doesn't make that right either, just easy to understand the dogmatic approach.

He's not so much a hypocrit (because clearly he doesn't accept this in himself) as weak and in lust. There may well be more experiences that will surface.

What disturbs me are TWO THINGS:

1. As I stated before, I believe people knew and things were covered.

2. There is no clear answer for me in this area. I can seem to "figure out" Christianity and believe for victory in everything else. Do I put homosexuality SIMPLY in the LUST ARENA. ''

If so, then I know many men who struggle inside the church with lust and there are some men that have a harder time with this. My husband believes it's a choice that must be submitted to God. I'm sure that Ted Haggard prayed many times for this to end. So, I'm baffled today. But, I'm also compassionate.

I think it is raising more questions than answsers right now,

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi Dust,
According to the New York Times, and now Ted this went on for three years, yet he not stop. God has to in His own do something, else we are not His. Heart breaks are deep, but my thoughts are for Jones. He says his is broken, also. This Ted was quite a Godly man to Jones; which he says is apart of his motivation to do something. It rings of a morality play ; unlike the Greeks in their tragedies, we have an answer.}

[matt_hatter]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061105/ap_on_re_us/haggard_sex_allegations

Here's the link Robert.

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

Oh, where...Oh, where are thou, dear Bill-Mack????

For those old-timers on this board, you will be familiar with Sandy Simpson and his crusade of uncovering the New Apostolic Reformation. Many of you have purchased the DVD series.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/nardvd.html

The recent events involving Ted Haggard have far more deeper impact in Christian community. The readers on this board who are well-versed in apostle/prophet movement will understand.
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/NAELetter.html

Ted Haggard was apart of a council under the "vertical apostle" C. Peter Wagner. Rice Broocks and Jim Laffoon are apart of this under the two sub councils termed the New Apostolic Roundtable (ulyankee's earlier postings has the correct name of council that Laffoon sits on):

http://www.globalharvest.org/index.asp?action=doctor

http://www.christiandefense.org/responce%20to%20Justyn_MSI%20teachings.htm


The answer is "yes". Ted Haggard did have peers outside of his church that he was associated.

This recent turn of events has far greater depth than simply political manueverings on the eve of USA elections.

It's a turn of events that I never imagine would unfold in 2004.

[dust]

Here is what someone from New Life was reported to say in an lengthy, interesting article written last year said: Link to article is here:

http://www.harpers.org/SoldiersOfChrist-20061103288348488.html

In December, Commander Tom received a vision. It is not unheard of for ordinary New Lifers to experience visions, but most are wary about their provenance; what a secularist would call psychological they call satanic. But Commander Tom thinks that this one was real. He seemed close to tears as he told me the story. This is what he had seen: “Complete darkness over all of America. But there was a light coming down to the center of America,” i.e., Colorado Springs. “And it was just a circle. And in it there were angels, and the angels were battling. And they were fighting hard as they could”—here Commander Tom's voice broke—“but they couldn't hold back the dark, and the Lord said to me, ‘America has to repent, or this hole will close.’”

Commander Tom returned to the moment. “I'm not even saying I know what to do with it. It's just—that's what I see. And I pray. There's something going on here, and God's gonna explode it. There's gonna be an explosion from here bigger than anyone's ever seen.”

Pastor Ted, he believed, would marshal the shock waves. “I think Pastor Ted is Gandalf,” said Commander Tom. Tom had received a few mini-visions, just glimpses really, and in them he saw a pastor kneeling, praying, in spiritual battle.

“Who's the Balrog?” I asked, referring to a demon that nearly kills Gandalf, the Lord of the Rings's heroic wizard. I expected Commander Tom to reply with the usual enemies, “the culture” and the homosexuals and the humanists. But the Balrog, he said, is inside Pastor Ted, and inside every Christian. Before the church can condemn the world, it must cleanse itself, thought Tom; he believed that American evangelicals were filthy with pride.

“Pride's dangerous,” he said. He was thinking of the last presidential election. “Like a football game. Us against them.” Commander Tom was pleased with the results but dismayed by the political power surging through his congregation. “That is not the same as”—he paused—“going into God. God does not see politics as a victory.”

[jbkrems]

j2: I need to speak up and clarify some thoughts you posted in 487.

First, Mike Jones is not necessarily more honest than Haggard. We really do not know whether he is telling the truth. Jones failed a polygraph not once, but TWICE, the second time the test administrator said some of his answers about sex indicated "deception." That is a known fact, and has been reported by the national press.

Second, you are right in that it really does not matter whether what Jones brought to the light was politically motivated, at least at this point.

Third, you said, "The accusations have been and are being proved true, which is the imporant thing." That's not really factually accurate. Haggard has come out and confessed to some items, and not others. The oversight board found him guilty of "sexual immorality," which includes a spectrum of offenses, so we really do not know every single detail of what Haggard did, except that whatever his conduct was, it was "sexually immoral."

Frankenchrist: You're being a little judgmental, don't you think???

Pilgrim: Thanks for bringing that article to our attention. The people here on the Boards need to read that article in its entirety.

Dust: I'm going to save most of my comments for you in private messaging, but you need to get your mind off the matter, before it becomes obsessive (hopefully it hasn't yet), and learn to move on from this travesty/tragedy.

Copper: We don't know for sure if Haggard new Jones for 3 years or not.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Catching up,
Dust -Thank you so much for your research and article; it tells a lot of the story. And is frightening , too also. Dove said on another thread about God looking at the apostate church. What a terrible day for that search, it would be. When the day that comes to one, but better now than later. Maybe that is the true meaning of that proverb. I want to be on the solid ground for that day and all days.

Brick -Thank you , maybe Bill left so we could come forward. That is a true teacher's gift so that the teachings could forward, after they were internalized. You did well.

Kerms, you are straining at gnats and sometimes consuming them, as your Rome burns, alass...}

[wayfaring_stranger]

wayfaring_stranger what cult did you drop out of? You seem to nice for this place. My first reaction is to say GO AWAY but I would like to know more about you??? God Bless

Oh I came to FN in a strange way - not really a cult. Lots of subjects are listed here and they are not all cults.

I understand the GO AWAY thing too - part of me wants to do that. But we have to live in the world don't we?

Let's just say that I've made my share of mistakes - this particular thread caught my eyes for obvious reasons - the news. I happen to like my massage therapist but he gives purely medical massages and talks constantly during the massage. LOL! (I normally don't point out that I am female but something about this subject makes me thing it would sound better if I did.)

This is a difficult subject - I've always struggled with the appropriate response of when or if to expose and when one should pull back. Again, there is truth in the touch not my annointed. I guess the key is just listening to the Holy Spirit inside of you.

Matt,

I loved the picture your painted in your post 1700.

To the others: Yes, I guess we all at times find ourselves in the dog house.

God Bless,

[jbkrems]

Copper: I don't think you catch my spirit. I approve of the actions taken against Haggard with his removal.

What I disapprove of is the speculation and stuff I see written about him on this Board.

[frankenchrist]

What did I say that was judgemental?

I just think a criminal should be put in jail.

Haggard is a criminal.

Haggard should be put in jail.

[40days40years]

J-2, it was our robertunknown who brought up questions about other motivations about this thing and Mike Jones said yeah my reasons for exposing this thing are partially political. No problem, Mike Jones cried about this, Mike Jones likes Art/Ted Haggard but does not like his hypocrisey. In fact others out there in web land have said at least Mike Jones is honest when he said my decision to release this info is political and I was mad at Haggard for opposing gay marriage.

I understand that but the democrats who found out about Foley being a semi/pedophile many months a go? No mercy if they waited for the proper time to drop their bomb. THEIR BUTTS should be in prison NOW!

The October surprise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_surprise tends to show that, that person or party has satanic tendencies, evil people is the way I see it. Wait a few months and drop a bomb about a DUI or a lie about avoiding air guard service? You need to hook up with your boy toy Matt Drudge and listen to what he thinks about this subject.

Dust: a big fan here but any vision about Colorado Springs and the biggest boy there / Teddie H ?.....Everybody knows that is where christians are moving to. I ran into a wack job oneness Pentecostal who had visions of California being wiped out and he was headed out to Colorado Springs, surpise, surprise.

Maybe that vision is true but give me a vision about Bakersfield that comes true and I will be impressed.

[jbkrems]

Frankenchrist:

You were being judgmental about the way you were treating Haggard. He has not been convicted in a court of law, and so he's innocent until proven guilty by a court.

You also said, "Why are the drugs being ignored? Haggard is lying about throwing away the meth and not using it. Meth is a very bad drug. Highly ilegal. Haggard is supporting the meth trade. Hey, I don't care who Haggard gets all cuddly with, that's his business but when he supports a drug industry that is destroying people's lives and killing them -- different matter. "

Frankenchrist, you do not know whether Haggard is lying when it comes to throwing away the meth and not using it. By saying Haggard lied in this area, you are pronouncing a judgment, which is NOT your call to make.

That's why I objected and said you're being judgmental.

[40days40years]

Does EN even have a church in Colorado Springs?

IF NOT WHY NOT? Why did not Phil move there, he must be out of the discernment loop.

[40days40years]

Glad your here WFS I thought you were male thanks for clarifying, don't go away.

Frankenwhatever, yeah Jones does not seem that astute, this is a personal thing with him. He was hoping God would bless Haggard and family I believe him.

[frankenchrist]

Hggard is a liar. He's a professional liar. That's what he does for a living. He lies to people and takes their money.

Meth is not a recreational drug that one would buy $100-200 MORE of if the person was just curious. Meth can be purchased in $10 amounts. If Haggard was "just curious" he would have bought a much smaller amount. Haggard's lie is transparent, stupid and childish. No parent of a teenager who has a level of intelligence greater than that of the average turnip would buy that line from their kid. The cops would never buy that line of crap from someone who is not a famous phoney holy man.

Ted Haggard is a scumbag. I always thought that and this just confirms it. Dobson is another criminal scumbag -- can't wait to see the creep go down -- bound to happen any day now.

[jbkrems]

40: EN had a church in Denver, but it fell away. Ask Ulyankee about that. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Frankenchrist: Yes, Haggard has admitted he is a liar, but he has not said what he lied about. He's not a professional liar, though, as you ascribe to him. I strongly disagree with what you just said about him. That is NOT what he did for a living. He was a preacher of the Gospel, and until recently, preached well. I own a few of his books, actually.

We do not know how much meth Haggard purchased. All we know is Haggard says he purchased SOME. We also know he is guilty of sexual immorality, which is a spectrum of things.

And what do you have against James Dobson, why is he so criminal in your mind - ???

[gatordave]

<font color="0077aa">That's the Christian attitude. <font color="aa00aa">"Move on." Just "move on." "Put it behind us."</font>...... then do it again, and again. Hurt thousands of people coercing them out their mortgage money with a heart wrenching story or the promise if they use their mortgage payment as a <font color="aa00aa">"seed"</font> they will be rewarded with the <font color="aa00aa">"harvest."</font> In the meantime it and thousand more used to pay the mortgage on the scamming preacher multimillion dollar home, pool, private zoo, massage therapist etc., etc., etc. The victim’s houses sold to the T.V. "no money down" scammers. And the constant Christian pyramid and ponzi schemes and the like. Delusion of the elderly and the children. Rob from the poor to impress the rich. (Teflon Benny Hinn - $1000 tip for the hotel manager, $100 for the desk clerk and 20 bucks for the homeless lady).

The false healing, the selling of vitamins and cosmetics through the televangelist "church," the telemarketing of desperate and hungry children, the bulk of the cash going to wealthy telemarketers, the gambling, the "anointing” of your telephone with "blessed water" resulting in winning the lottery, or cars, houses, cash... all this while the Lord, it appears, is ignoring the homeless and the hungry right outside the lavish T.V. studios with its fabulous trappings; the scams, the lies, the B.S. and then more of this Haggard stuff. And then <font color="aa00aa">"Hey lets just put it behind us."</font>

All this misery in the wake of what proports to be the Christian movemnent. And now even the Salvation Army considered the incorruptible, and as long as I've known, absolutely down on vices; gambling for sure. But, now named as one the charities to receive the celebrity poker championship winnings if that celebrity wins.

Has anyone seen if the Sally Ann denounced the poker game and refused to be the recipients since our organization contacted them to notify them their name was being used to promote poker? We didn't get a reply to our notification.

And stay tuned there will be lots more coming out of the woodwork. And I still predict one of these charlatans are going to be assassinated by someone who's granny they defrauded of her life savings, or someone's 8 year-old crippled child convinced she can't be healed because she doesn't love the Lord enough or someone who's relative committed suicide as a result of their heartless con games.

As I have stated before, Shuler could feed masses of the homeless for what it costs just to wash the bird sh*t off the Glass Cathedral.

So, <font color="aa00aa">"quickly forget it"</font> and move onto to the next scam or scandal.

dave

p.s. Have I judged them too harshy by chance???</font>

[frankenchrist]

Q. What's the difference between James Dobson and a psychotic, brain damaged Nazi on dope?

A. Nothing.

Dobson has to be the most repugnant thing to ever crawl out of a sack of moldy wart hog <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font>. Dobson is a greedy pig who wants nothing but money and power. And he does have that. Member's of Dobson's cult called Focus on the Family are brainwashed into believing everything their delusional leader says.

Yeah Focus on the Family should change their name to something more accurate like; The Greedy Pig Hate Cult.

Dobson, like Haggard, is another professional liar. CUlt leaders lie to people and take their money -- that's what they do.

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

40/40: I understand that but the democrats who found out about Foley being a semi/pedophile many months a go? No mercy if they waited for the proper time to drop their bomb. THEIR BUTTS should be in prison NOW!

The October surprise tends to show that, that person or party has satanic tendencies, evil people is the way I see it. Wait a few months and drop a bomb about a DUI or a lie about avoiding air guard service? You need to hook up with your boy toy Matt Drudge and listen to what he thinks about this subject.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I know what the October Surprise is, and I still don't see what the big deal is.

Maybe I'm misreading you, but you seem to be saying that if the democrats waited to reveal the Foley scandal instead of doing so right away that they ought to go to jail. (If he were a real paedophile then I'd agree with you, but at this point, as far as I know, what he did was unsavory but legal.)

I don't see the October surprise as good or bad--it just is. What is bad are the immoral actions of a politician or influential person that are being reported on as an October surprise. If you act in an immoral action you put yourself into a position where you can be used and taken advantage of. You have no one to blame but yourself if your political opponents use your immorality in whatever way they think will be to their greatest advantage.

The October surprise might be sort of mean, but it's a part of politics and has been for, no doubt, centuries. Politics has never been kind and has never been pretty. It's a cutthroat pursuit. That's just what it is.

I'm not a democrat. I'm a Republican/libertarian. But I can't blame democrats for taking advantage of the moral failings of Republican leaders. If I were a politician I'd be doing the same thing back at the Dems. It's what politicians do.

And who cares if Matt Drudge disagrees with me? If he and I hooked up I might bring him around to my point of view. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[jbkrems]

Gatordave: I do not see how your comments are relevant in this thread, as Haggard is not even mentioned by name.

Frankenchrist: Do you have anything to substantiate your allegations???

[gatordave]

<font color="0077aa">yes I have lots to substantiate my allegations. What would you like? The conclusion with repect to the bird sh*t is of course as they say, "self evident"

dave</font>

[wildwood_]

Greetings ALL! Frankenchrist we really try not to just throw random accusation stones towards ministries that are unfamiliar to us. So, if you have a specific thread topic you'd like posted...so we can all evaluate &amp; comment on your info...that would be most appreciative. Thank You.

And Pastor Ted made his own decisions regardless of when they were leaked...by his choice he tried to keep these things silent...and the untold pain it caused him &amp; his family we may never understand. The Lord's hands are safely upon His Sheep and I do not believe the Church will suffer because of the minister's fall to temptation. He is not the first...rather the 999th to have fallen to some of the same sins they preach against. Because those sins are poison to the Soul. May Pastor Ted receive the help he needs to find and restore him to a Healthy, Born-Again Christian so that he might continue to serve the Lord.

[gatordave]

<font color="0077aa">And I did write in my post <font color="aa00aa">"and then more of this Haggard stuff."</font>

But this subject is much broader than just Haggart. He is just another symptom of a larger problem. It like trying to get the picture by looking at only two pieces of a puzzle. But that's the whole problem with Christians; They are so narrow-minded.

dave</font>

[jbkrems]

Gatordave: The question about substantiating allegations was addressed to frankenchrist, not to you. Unless you two are the same person???

Regardless, Haggard was not a televangelist. He's very different than the other ministers that you mentioned.

Wildwood: Thank you for your kind words. Well said.

[40days40years]

Boy J-2 your are tough, get married to you and when it is time for your divorce in 20 years the guy is going to get an Ocotober, November, December, Januaray surprise. You are ruthless I think you must be a secret democrat operative but if you approach Drudge I am sure you can whoo him http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

Frankenchrist and gator what do you think about Kenny Copeland buying two new twenty million dollar Citataion aircraft when he owns a bunch of super expensive jet planes already? One is for his wife one is for him to fly to Africa and the world giving the prosperity message. Google Kennys heavenly airforce.

Why does everybody hate Dr. Dobson? I mean it is like hating a teddy bear.

[robert_unknown]

can it be, that people like Haggard, or Daniels are fighting so strongly against morality issues in society like homosexuality, same-sex-marriages and pornographie (PD) because they somehow fight the "demon" insight of them?

I mean, i am sure they HATE their own inmorality and they hate it that they cannot get rid of it. could it be, that they fight it on a society level because of this?

do you guys understand what i mean?

(Message edited by robert_unknown on November 06, 2006)

[jbkrems]

40: I don't hate Dobson, but have the greatest respect for him, actually.

Robert: I understand exactly how you mean, and it makes me sick.

[gatordave]

<font color="0077aa">Most of the whole Christian movement displays the same symptoms. I spoke of the Salvation Army as well. It's the whole decent into corruption. Charismatic scammers, scamming the masses.

And I know you were directing your comments to Frankinchrist I just wanted to assure anyone I could prove MY allegations as well. But then it never occurred to me that maybe you accepted them as true and obvious.</font>

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

40/40: Boy J-2 your are tough, get married to you and when it is time for your divorce in 20 years the guy is going to get an Ocotober, November, December, Januaray surprise. You are ruthless I think you must be a secret democrat operative but if you approach Drudge I am sure you can whoo him<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Maybe it's a result of coming of age during the Clinton years. Seriously, for as long as I've been politically aware, politics have been mean; maybe it's different for the more mature members of the discussion board. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

40/40:Why does everybody hate Dr. Dobson? I mean it is like hating a teddy bear.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I think that his child-rearing philosophy has caused a lot of harm. I grew up in the Christian subculture, and my parents' house was littered with various Focus on the Family publications. The emphasis placed on "tough love" caused me to associate love with punishment, rebuke, and control. Because of that, I didn't want to be "loved"--I wanted to be "liked"--but I felt very ashamed for not wanting to be loved because, after all, love is one of the big themes in the Bible. I felt like I was a bad Christian because I didn't want God to rebuke me, or correct me, or punish me; I wanted Him to like me and enjoy me and be happy with me. I felt like I was an insincere Christian for wanting all the good stuff from God but not wanting the bad stuff. In my thinking, if God was God then He could treat me however He wanted to and I ought to accept whatever He gives me, and I shouldn't refuse His love, even if His love caused me great pain....but deep inside I still still didn't want to be loved because Dr. Dobson had made it out to be a very scary and undesirable thing.

Dobson's teachings were one of the things that, as a child, prevented me from understanding or trusting God. I think I needed a lot more "soft love".

[gatordave]

<font color="0077aa">Kenny Copeland is just a bigger shark in the food change. I'm a guy that likes to take action to clean this stuff up not just talk about it. That's why our foundation was set up. Two weeks ago we filed 5 - $10,000 lawsuits, three of them on behalf of students scammed in a pyramid fraud run by a lawyer, with a prosecutor and her son, and cops in it as recruiters.

I've used my bullhorn several times outside of big mainline churches especially those who's members were engaged in huge pyramid frauds. I warn their children about these scams. Like the typical narrow minded Christians they ignore me and ignore the message practicing denial, denial, denial. They sure got ticked off when the young people took my pamphlets and started asking questions. Particularly when the scam artists were busted a few months later.

They were all a bit read faced when newspaper headlines in one of the earlier scams read "In church hallways" etc., etc., as it explained how the pyramid fraud was spread.

Them so-called Christians sure don't like the truth or some one predicting the final outcome of anything especial their arrests. And that was the Lutherens, the Baptists, the Evangelicals, the United Church, Seven Day Adventers, and others.

dave</font>

[40days40years]

gator give more details on the law suits you little fish or sharks or whatever??

J-2 you are calling me "more mature" what a slam but hey it is a minor slam so no prob. Look J-2 maybe you should contact Dr. Dobson and tell him what you think about his philosphy, he won't listen to me, Uhhh Dr. Dob I heard from a girl that your philosophy messed her up..... See what i mean, go after Teddy with fangshttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

Dust, with all due respect... I appreciate your posting of the article...however, the article only confirms to my personal decision of no longer adhereing to fundamentalism.

The story of how Ted Haggard received a prophecy for his church. The story of how Haggard had been personally marked by a witches' coven. (give me a break). The perspective that Colo Springs Christians have on how their town is the last fortress of Christianity. The section of the article where Commander Tom's vision is chock full of "us vs. them", "evil vs. good", "black vs. white perspectives", "pastor on pedestal and compared to a movie/literary hero", and last but not least, "we (Colo Springs) are last, holy city in USA".

And the author of the article wrote this perspective on Tom: "Before the church can condemn the world, it must cleanse itself, thought Tom"

my comment: What mandate do Christians have to condemn the world? But this is the message that the writer has received with apparent conversation with Tom.

These views aren't healthy or normal.

I am familiar with this type of rhetoric as I have heard the same statements over the years living in Nashville. I wish I had a dime for everytime that I heard a recently-located Christian resident say to me, "God called me to Nashville." What each speaker really says in this statement, "The Christian music industry is(was) big (and was thriving) in Nashville. This is where all of the CCM "stars" live...and I have hopes of either a) being a CCM star myself or b) I want to become friends withe CCM stars...so now I am finding out which churches are hotbeds for CCM artists and wannabes..."

IMO, it is perfect snapshot of where modern-day American Christianity is at right now... it is no longer about God... it is about superstars, marketing, spin, agendas...

(Message edited by another brick in the wall on November 06, 2006)

[speakword2004]

The fact that Haggard's lies and deceit ("I am a deceiver and a liar")have been exposed by a gay prostitute is sadly indicative of more deeper issues that are relative to churches such as EN (kindly take the sordid details to other discussion boards-let's stay relevant to the EN church topic)

- AUTOCRATIC and personality driven ministries
- serious hypocrisy and lack of true Christian
ACCOUNTABILITY and
- the appointment of UNQUALIFIED elders
- Leader WORSHIP by church members and peers
- The MANIPULATION of churches and church groups for POLITICAL purposes
-The enormous pressures and burdens placed on individual leaders by the above issues
- The coverup of previous patterns of sin and deceit without due and proper discipline

[dust]

Robert writes :can it be, that people like Haggard, or Daniels are fighting so strongly against morality issues in society like homosexuality, same-sex-marriages and pornographie (PD) because they somehow fight the "demon" insight of them?

Dust: Robert, Yes, I have counseled lots of people in my profession and yes, this "projection" does most likely move their platform along. And, this is what gives me compassion. And, that's where I'm going to stay, because I'm just certain in my heart that a man who pays for such non-emotional sex, is addicted to the lust experience, in secret, most likely hates himself for it. It's complicated.

NOW, perhaps God can use Ted Haggard in the future to truly be authentic and address this inside the church. My prayer is that it will bring healing in ways we could never imagine and healing to the homosexual community. My prayer calls for many miracles that are far bigger than what we as mere humans could accomplish.

And folks, I would be really careful of your condemnation. As Christians, we should be grieving this on a number of levels.

[matt_hatter]

WS: "Matt,
I loved the picture your painted in your post 1700."

Thanks, Way, come over to the hatter thread and say hello, the boys and girls may even share a piece of country ham with you. You will receive a warm welcome!

[mcmstaff78]

Dust, I'm curious. To what do you refer as "condemnation"? Now, there some pretty obvious trolling and flame bait above, but I think most have rightly ignored those posts. However, I'm interested in what you perceive to be "condemnation". I think many times we use words in different ways and so fail to communicate as clearly as we may think.

[speakword2004]

As a fellow Christian believer who will stand next to Haggard and account for my own sins before the throne of God, I do not condemn him. That type of judgement is reserved for God alone and Jesus clearly warns us from the same. I agree that any overt condemnation here is from Trolls.

But the church and Christians can not make themselves complicit by silence or an attitude of mercy without truth. Mercy goes hand in hand with truth and to hide away the issue under the covering of forgiveness is a deceitful blanket in itself.

[dust]

Brick: Dust, with all due respect... I appreciate your posting of the article...however, the article only confirms to my personal decision of no longer adhereing to fundamentalism.

Me: I think this article was not exactly favorable for the New Life church, but I thought it was worth discussing, on a number of levels. I probably do fall into a more conservative camp...this camp saved my life, so I'm very grateful. It wouldn't have done me any good to hear a watered down gospel, a seeker friendly message or any relativism regarding the bible. I had done enough of that playing around myself. I needed truth and I needed to believe my life could change. And it did, but not perfectly...not in a straight line, but absolutely.

God doesn't need PERFECT people to share what He's about...He only needs WILLING people. Willing to move towards Him, each day, growing in amidst our cheap self, and willing to share what He's about. It's not going to be done in a straight line. Only Jesus Christ ever walked in a straight line. So, we do need to bear with each other in truth and mercy, but also with tenderness.

It's okay that you don't want to believe in Christian fundamentalism, but I really don't think you want us wiped off the planet. I would be very careful in my condemnation of the church this way. You are free to worship in whatever style you choose, but a complete rejection of fundamental Christianity has it's own militant spin. There are many groups in the world right now doing everything they can to crush Christian freedom.

The bibles you see on the tables of Starbucks...well, that may come to be a thing of past.

(Message edited by dust on November 06, 2006)

[dust]

MCM,
I think Speak answered for me.

[mcmstaff78]

No, I don't think it does, as I'm still not sure what you mean by "condemn". I know I won't condemn him, though I don't know whether I will stand with him or not. I don't condemn him now, though I believe he no longer meets the scriptural qualifications as a minister I truly believe he can be redeemed. But redeemed doesn't mean "restored" - it doesn't mean there are no consequences to our sin, especially those committed after we convert. There are always repercussions to what we do and there are some things which a man (or woman) may do by which they forfeit certain things.

So, is my belief (and assertion) that Mr. Haggard as permanently forfeited any "right" to "minister" or hold a position of church leadership "condemnation"?

[jbkrems]

Gator: I still do not see the relevance of your original comments to this thread, which is about the fall of Ted Haggard, not the other ministers you mentioned. Further, while I do not necessarily believe your comments are accurate, I do not find them relevant, here, really.

Gatordave, are you a Christian? Do you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior???

[jbkrems]

mcmstaff: I want to chime in and say we agree on something else.

Your position that Haggard permanently forfeited any right to minister or hold a position of church leadership is NOT "condemnation," because he still can be restored to be a functioning, born-again Christian, who can serve, just not in a leadership capacity.

However, I do want to add an additional caveat. I would never use the word "permanent," so "for the time being," I think is a better way to express the forfeiture that Haggard has agreed to, and THAT is not condemnation, either.

[maranatha1984]

JBK
Gator Dave is a person who posts on FACTNET but never on the MSIMCM board...FACTNET is run by non Christians- he is probably attracted here because of the number of posts and because Ted Haggert is now a lightening rod for what is wrong with the MEGA CHURCH CHRISTIAN RIGHT MOVEMENT (and there is much wront0.

So the number of posts on MCMMSI FAct net will begin attracting non believers (we have had very few) and TED HAGGART and his ilk are also to blame.
GATOR is not a MSI MCM person (nor are you-which is fine) and as continue to "Grow" we will attract outsiders (people not affiliated in the past or present wth MCM/EN/MSI)

I could be wrongt but I do not think GATOR DAVE is a former given his posting history on FACTNET and his lack of posts to date on our little section of the much broader FACTNET

[maranatha1984]

Tikie
Frankenchrist is another non MSI/MCM nonbeliever who looking at his membership his posts and lack of presence on our part of the board (remember we are but a part of the larger board) is a non believer who is posting. We should not expect either he nor Gator Dave to have the same outlook and attitude as Christians...

[jesusisawesome]

Tikie, please check your e-mail . . .

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

40/40: J-2 you are calling me "more mature" what a slam but hey it is a minor slam so no prob. Look J-2 maybe you should contact Dr. Dobson and tell him what you think about his philosphy, he won't listen to me, Uhhh Dr. Dob I heard from a girl that your philosophy messed her up..... See what i mean, go after Teddy with fangshttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
As a matter of fact, when I was 14 I did write a letter to Focus on the Family expressing some of my concerns about their views on child-rearing. I told them that it bothered me that they focused so much on children's actions, telling us over and over again "don't have sex, don't have bad friends, don't disobey your parents or teachers, don't give into peer pressure", but they never really gave much attention to our relationship with Christ. Rather than telling us over and over again to avoid pre-marital sex, why didn't they try to help us grow close to God and be filled with His Spirit because that way we wouldn't have to keep a list of specific rules but would instead naturally tend to do what was right and avoid what was wrong.

They blew me off. They wrote back a letter saying "Yes, we realize that the closer you are to God the more you tend to live in an upright manner; however, having been teenagers ourselves once we know how much teenagers struggle with issues like sex and peer pressure, so that's why we focus on them."

Now as an adult I just think they're ignorant and insecure, but as a 14 year old I was very disappointed. I didn't have any of the problems and struggles they attributed to teenagers. What I desperately wanted to was be close to God--to understand Him and communicate with Him and hear Him communicate to me--but I had no one to help me achieve that. I wrote to FOF specifically because one of their big focuses was--supposedly--helping children become good Christians. I opened up a part of my heart to them, and they just dismissed me.

But of course they would--I know that now. Dobson doesn't care about hearts, he cares about actions. If he cared about hearts he wouldn't advocate spanking because as many people who have been spanked can attest, spanking doesn't affect the heart, it doesn't make a person good, all it does is frighten them to such a degree that they change their actions.

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

I don't condemn Ted Haggard. I do ache for his situation and his family's well-being.

I posted the Sandy Simpson links to provide a possible link to Haggard's admission that he has had a life-long battle with some dark issues. I don't know his specific experiences...but as earlier research from members on this board (i.e. Bill Mack) has shown that the Latter Rain theology has some very dark roots.

My goal was to tie the current event of Haggard in with past/present/future dialogue of EN. EN is connected with C Peter Wagner. Haggard is Wagner's senior pastor.

It's a small world.

And I don't want Christians wiped off this planet. Fundamentalism is an aspect of religion (any religion) that needs to be examined with personal decisions on outcome. My personal journey out of MSI has led me through this aspect.

I agree that God doesn't need perfect people. He does need people who are willing to do something for his people. To care for his people.

My past experiences has been like that commercial (USA) where there are business people at round table discussing items over lunch. One of the guys begins choking. The people sitting around him are debating, commenting on this guy's perilous situation. It takes another guy from separate table to get up, walk over and slap the guy on the back to dislodge the food.

Oftentimes, I think Christians are like those people around the table. Always making plans to gather together to pray... I used to be one of those same people; however, now... my view is "do something now." Roll up my sleeves, prepare to get my hands and feet dirty, use my God-given muscles, compassion for real-life interaction. Not simply praying for an answer...but being an answer.

That is simply where I am at. And it is ok to disagree with my perspective.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

JBK: I want to chime in and say we agree on something else.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Only superficially. Your last statement that it is only "for now" demonstrates a superficial commitment to the scriptures as guiding principles. Is there any way that Mr. Haggard can ever become "blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour"? Is there any way he can ever again have "a good report of them which are without"? Since he no longer can meet the scriptural qualifications, the only way he can be in leadership is to ignore them. This is one of the things that gives Christians such a bad report among the heathen - the failure to abide by what they say they believe.

[frankenchrist]

"what they say they believe" -- yep, that's the issue. Mny of these cult leaders such as Haggard, Dobson, Swaggert, Falwell, Robertson, Moon, Rajneesh, etc. is that they are just in it for power and money. Belief in the concepts is for the followers, not the leaders of the cult.

[miltietoast]

frank that is generally true of all leaders of all walks of life---seldomdo the walk as they talk

[getagrip]

MEGA CHURCH CHRISTIAN RIGHT MOVEMENT - please explain... it is my experience that the Mega Church Movement (Hybels, Warren, etc.) has come into existence by the CHRISTIAN LEFT. Perhaps I am mistaken? Look forward to your comments (all).

[gatordave]

<font color="0077aa">Hi 40D-40Y much of this is under corporations at the begining of topics.

Many of these pyramids frauds are being spread through the churches. It's Affinity fraud. It's a terrible situation and few churches will warn their members particulaly the youth. In Ireland for example, this same 4 tier 1-2-4-8 pyramid was brought there by a Canadian nun in Africa who brought it to the U.S. then to Ireland. The press reported that high school kids were using this scam on the internet and 4 out of 5 teachers in Ireland were complaining they were being threatened by their students. Check this

<font color="aa00aa">"The Liberty Chart System originated in Africa and was brought to the US by a ‘‘Canadian nun’’, from where it finally travelled to Europe, according to a computer presentation on the system seen by The Sunday Business Post."</font>

http://www.vcresearch.info/open/forums.asp?TopicId=8268&amp;ForumId=73

But many churches right now are participating in these frauds all over the world. Ministers are involved. Two Baptist ministers were caught and sentenced to 14 years each in the U.S. and there are many more. There are many suicides.

The law suits we have filed are against a Canadian lawyer and his former school teacher sister who are running a pyramid scheme in Woodbrigde Ontario a few miles north of Toronto called The Sum-It Club. www.sum-itclub.com (http://www.sum-itclub.com). They are recuiting in universities, colleges and even high schools telling these youth they are joning an exclusive discount club "affiliated" with high profile corporations, banks, insurance companies, credit card corporations etc.

They use world renowed motivational speakers and authors such as this guy Charles M. Marcus to "suck" our youth into fraud. http://www.cmarcus.com/

The Sum-It Club has cops, a prosecuter, her son, lawyers etc., as members.

This stuff is all covered up by the RCMP and all the other police forces in Canada and the corrupt politicians and government agencies who's resposibilty it is to actually stamp out these crimes and this corruption. And the churches rather then inform their "blind followers" keep mute or worse use their tremedous influence and get involved with these money laundering scum all over the world, again ripping off their own "flock".

With this level of corruption these victims don't have a chance on their own. That's where we come in. crimebustersnow.com. International Foundation. But, this moring I just found out our scam list has been obliterated. It seems too specific to be a technical error. It may have been hacked. We'll see. But when you click on "scams" on our site they have all been illiminated.</font>

[getagrip]

MEGA CHURCH CHRISTIAN RIGHT MOVEMENT - please explain... it is my experience that the Mega Church Movement (Hybels, Warren, etc.) has come into existence by the CHRISTIAN LEFT. Perhaps I am mistaken? Look forward to your comments (all).

[gatordave]

<font color="0077aa">Another horrable pyramid covered up in Canada and now running rampant in the U.S. is Canadian Diamond Traders. It is into churches, it's spreading like crazy in the deaf community and we are receiving emails from distraught family members who recognize it is a fraud but cannot persuade their loved ones of the truth and don't know where to go, especially in Canada where complainants are harassed, threatened even jailed on trumped up charges for pursuing complaints against pyramid crooks. Western Australia is however warning their citizens of this Canadian fraud after we contacted them, but Canadian Authorities are surpressing it. RCMP, OPP, cops all over Canada, politicians corrupt lawyers even (according to the scamsters own bragging, even Canadian judges) are in these frauds. it's unreal!!!

Check this from Australia.

http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/ConsumerProtection/scamnet/Scams/Canadian_Diamond_Tra.html

be glad to answer any questions

dave

crimebustersnow.com call 24/7 we return calls toll free in North America and 22 countries worldwide.</font>

[dust]

MCM: So, is my belief (and assertion) that Mr. Haggard as permanently forfeited any "right" to "minister" or hold a position of church leadership "condemnation"?

Dust: Probably true. I can't see him ever being a pastor again. However, I'm just not going to say that God cannot use him again for ministry. It's time the church really dealt with the whole truths of homosexuality, of which I happen to know a lot about. I'm not gay, but I was very close to this lifestyle and I counseled a lot of gay people and people with Aids, a world most Christians know nothing about. And, it's an issue the church does not want to deal with except for some promise that the Holy Spirit will zap it out of you. It runs deeper than this, and Ted Haggard just might be used by God to deal with this....I don't know, but I will not dismiss what God can do. In fact, I pray that God will use him for good in this, as crazy as this may right now sound....Ted Haggard has been reported to go to gay bars and invite men to church. I have to believe his heart is to help in this issue....now it may not be the way he planned. He probably thought he could pull it off from a stage, looking clean. And, now if he does anything of value here, it will come in humility and brokeness. But, it could be awesome.

Pastoring a church is probably not an option, but dismissing him as ever useful in the Christian community, I will not accept that. I'm going to believe the good God will do here.

WHen I use the word "condemn" I'm not meaning any one of us regulars, (but a few that are here not EN). and yet, I'm meaning all of us in a sense, including myself. I know I can fall and I know I have my own struggles. I want to do one thing and end up doing something else. I often feel like Paul in that regard.

And, this fallen leader in my face makes me take a big step back and look at my own vulnerability, and fall on the mercy of God.

[jbkrems]

84: Thanks for your information. However, I don't know if Gatordave is a Christian believer, or not. That's why I asked, and I'd like Gatordave to answer and respond, please.

Same goes for Frankenchrist, I'd like him to personally comment about his status as a Christian or not...

Brick: Haggard was also John Bevere's senior pastor, and he is fairly mainstream. Also, Wagner is connected with a lot of benign, non-EN ministers, e.g. Pastor Jack Hayford in California.

mcmstaff: I may be making a grammatical or semantics issue here, but you cannot say this is a permanent thing until it becomes permanent. It is better, thus, to use the word "indefinitely," which is a more accurate characterization.

Dust: I pretty much agree with all fo what you said, that pastoring a church will not be an option, but he cannot be summarily dismissed as ever useful in the Christian community.

[trainedobserver]

Ted Haggard, closet queen, hard-core drug fiend, and accomplished liar has fallen from his lofty seat into the light of truth.

His relationship with the male prostitute has been going on for three years right under the noses of those who trusted him with their spiritual direction. He has stated that he has struggled all of his life with these problems.

His opposition to gay marriage is the height of hypocrisy. He is a lying cheat of a practicing homosexual who wants to deny honest homosexuals a basic civil right that he enjoys with his "decoy" wife.

Where is the transforming power of Christianity? This empire building mega church slime ball of a human being could not come to grips with his problems with honesty and integrity. Had Ford not come forward Haggard would still be the President of the NEA and pastor of his very own mega-church.

He confessed because he was caught, not because he possesses any dignity or sense of right or wrong. The holy spirit certainly did not cause him to come forward, did not "convict him of his sins". Everyone should be asking the question "why"?

Ted Haggard could not have encountered his homosexual lover except through homosexual magazines or websites. Or perhaps other homosexual prostitutes. He obviously views homosexual porn and does drugs on a regular basis. The tip of the iceburg of Haggard's "secret life" is just beginning to come to light. It is much more than one male prostitute and one drug deal. Meth is very serious.

I hope this will get people to start thinking, questioning, and exercising some skepticism. Ted Haggard is a parasite just like Benny Hinn, Jimmy Swaggart, Peter Popoff, and all the rest.

This "revelation" should cause everyone to examine their churches and the lives of their leaders for fraud and deception.

I will never forget Ted Haggard's haughty and self-rightous comment he made on camera to Richard Dawkins in an interview in the TV show, The Root of all Evil. "Don't assume!" he repeated several times in the most repugnant manner. Yes. None of us should "assume" that Christianity has any power, authority, or truth whatsoever. And you should stop assuming that just because someone stands before 8000 people in a church and speaks, that he is speaking the truth in any form shape or fashion.

WAKE UP! Your leaders are deceiving you! They are robbing you of your time and money! They are thieves and cowards! STOP supporting these criminals! And for Pete's sake stop accepting them back into "the fold" where they will continue to behave just as they did before.

I have much more to say about this but due to circumstances beyond my control my access to the Internet is limited this week.

I emplore you all to think about the whys and wherefores surrounding this horrible man's exposure and look at your own churches and your own lives. Is there any reality to Christianity? If there is, why would god allow Haggard to "spiritually rape" his congregation and his family? Couldn't god deliver his "servant" from the living hell his life must be? No he could not.

As a secular humanist and former Christian of 32 years I hope that others will use this opportunity for self reflection and examination of their own leadership. Do you really want to be "lead" by such men as Ted Haggard? A dishonest and dirty drug user? What kind of man would frequent homosexual streetwalkers and then go home to his innocent wife to spread disease? She should kick him out in the street and go have herself tested for AIDS along with the rest of her family.

[frankenchrist]

jbkrems: Try this on for size. My (or anyone's) religious preference is none of your business.

In a violently pro-xtian society religious preference is used to marginalize, discriminate against, act violently toward, hete and distrust, etc. anyone who does not believe in the Hokey Booble.

How about this: it's not an issue and a true egalitarian would not care what someone's relion is.

[jbkrems]

Trainedobserver:

Do you have any evidence to substantiate your allegations about Ted Haggard?

How do you know that he knew Mike Jones for 3 years???

[dust]

I am a Christian and former secular humanist (about 20 years). Christian leaders fall. It's part of the story, the stuggle, life. But Jesus Christ never falls.

Ted Haggard did NOT destroy the Christian church.

Ted Haggard only shows us that we need Christ every second and we can fall down. We, as Christians, can still love Ted Haggard as our brother, in spite of our possible anger, grief, pain, feeling betrayed. Why? We love him with God's love.

Christianity is not marked by perfection, but is marked by REDEMPTION from a perfect God.

Christianity will never die because of sin. It is actually sin in us that deems us so helpless, we come to realize our only answer is Christ. Seeing the sin in the world, whether it be a religious leader or in myself, is all the more reason for me to hold tight onto all that is Christ.

[frankenchrist]

This does throw a serious monkey wrence in the fundie concept of homosexuality. -- True, Ted Faggard's sexual behavior is neither here nor there -- and on the off chance that there really is such a thing as god or gods, then I suppose Ted's erections will be judged accordingly. But meth is an ileagal drug. That is really the bigger issue here -- that is for the legal system to judge. Like it or not the cult leder's BS excuse doesn't stand up to anyone who is not willing to pretend to be stupid enough to eat it.

So, does the Tedster really believe all the crap that he spewed on the stage before his conglomeration of robots? Or was the Haggenator just making a tidy some of cash spouting his lies?

[frankenchrist]

One could say that Haggard is guilty of ----

Coveting his neighbor's <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font>.

Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!

[maranatha1984]

JBK
The fact that Franken is so shy about his religion says that he is not one...I am not a martian he is not a Christian.

It amazes me that people are so shy and scared of admitting their religious beliefs- it is hypocrisy in the main- anything else goes- but ask someone like Frank about his religion and GASP he is offended . I would say Frankie needs to take a lesson in consistency.

He says he is open minded and is willing to talk about issues- but HORRORS of Horrors don't ask him about his religious beliefs on a board dedicted to religious beliefs!!!!

Engaging in discussions about Christianity etc is not going to work. I would suggest you google presuppositionalism or persupposition and you will have an idea of what I am talking about.

Simply put his presupposition, probably, is simply that CHristianity is a fraud. From an Aristolean logic standpoint this is no better or no worse than my presupposition that Christianity is not only a valid religion it is the only religion.

He can no more prove his point logically than I can. Because our pressupposition do not account for the framework of our two beliefs.

Where as with Bible believing Christians I can engage in meaningful construct because our presuppositions are in line.

My advice to Frank and to GatorDave is go to part of a board that is framed for non believers not those seeking information on MSI EN.

No offense guys but your posing here is like me showing up with a punk rock band at a polka dance party. It is the wrong place and forum...

[maranatha1984]

FRank;How about this: it's not an issue and a true egalitarian would not care what someone's relion is

Tikie: First who is arguing for an eglatarian society...not me...but even if I were why would caring about someone religion be a problem...what are you scared of the topic...would me asking your opionion OFFEND you...if so WHY. Religion is just like anything else part of life.
Actually Frank you are a religious PRUDE posing as someone who is willing to talk about anything freely...

[frankenchrist]

Wow!!!!!

"Simply put his presupposition, probably, is simply that CHristianity is a fraud. From an Aristolean logic standpoint this is no better or no worse than my presupposition that Christianity is not only a valid religion it is the only religion."

Is this some kind of esoteric fundie humor?

WHAT in the flying, singing ratphuck is that line of garbled doodoo supposed to mean?

I was making a comment on society. J's motive for asking about people's personal religion is out of an ulterior motive. You know it, I know it, and he knows it.

He is coming from a (erroneous) POV that being a xtian "means" something -- and it doesn't.

This is very interesting though. There are some members of Haggard's cult here. Looking at how members of a cult deal with the situation of their leader being exposed as the hypocritical <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> that he is an interesting sociological intrigue. Like when the leader claims the end of the world and it doesn't happen or that the spaceship will land here and now and it doesn't. Now Haggard, after spewing his anti-gay hatred for de3cades turns out to be --- A QUEENIE!!

Can't help but find this very amusing. Not being a member of his cult, I feel no obligation to make excuses for the lying sack of crap. But as for the cult members -- look at the excuses roll in. Excuses, excuses, excuses.

[gatordave]

<font color="0077aa">Christians keep asking for proof when much of this is self evident. That means it is seen without specific proof or a lot of added B.S. discussion. At the same time we are told by Christians there is a god when you can't see him touch him and he does not talk or reveal himself to a controlled group of people at a given time like a politician or a rock star would do to prove they exist. We are instead asked to look at the results of his work; the wonders of nature etc., “look at these things and you must conclude there is a God” say Christians.

Well, when I look at the results in the "works" of these scammers within the church and the church itself, and I see widows losing their homes or kept in poverty because they have been led to believe if they send in their money and pray they can help their own families and others throughout the world, and I see how this money is spent, this is the evidence. It is self evident of what is going on. And when I get to the top of some of these Christian fund raisers we investigate and find who the companies and individuals are behind them the picture is clear.

Jesus could have had, or produced anything according to Christians. He instead, we are told, walked nearly all the time except when he road a donkey a bit. He could have produced a fancy Mercedes or even a Benny Hinn jet. Now that would have been impressive at that time. He didn't need it then, why do these "men of God" scammers need it now? Wake up! It's a big scam.

dave.</font>

[matt_hatter]

These guys will find a new home when they no longer have an audience.

[frankenchrist]

Dave-- There is a huge amount of fear taking place here. This Haggard event, amusing as hell for those of us who are not cult members, is pretty scary for the culties. "Wake up, it's a big scam" is not going to register for a person who has been thoroughly indoctrinated into a belief system that revolves around exploiting people's deepest fears. That is to say, for most of these people it is psychologically impossible for them to just "wake up." A major part of the mental proccess that takes place in the mind of a cult member is actively blocking out information that contradicts their narrow and limited belief system. This is primarily accomplished by limiting their social network only to those people who will provide them with the information that they want to hear. As with many (most) cult members Haggard's group has to, at times, interact with the larger community. Here they will hear things that do not reinforce their limited concept of "reality." They mentaly employ blocking mechanisms to immediatly dismiss any such information by ignoring it or contradicting it. That is the motive for what's-his-handle to ask if we were xtians -- so he could use that info to discredit anything we say no matter what. Cognitive dissonance runs deep.

Now the Haggardites have to put their cognitive dissonance engines on everdrive. They have been presented with something that threatens to discredit their entire worldview, right down to the very core. When I first saw the news about the Hagmeister, it was of absolutely no surprise. Amusement, perhaps a bit of cynical glee accompanied with popping the cork on a bottle of burgundy to celebrate -- but no surprise at all.

It will be interesting to see what unfolds, like the Swaggart case -- we all remember that piece of crap, dont we? -- we will see that some of the cult member's self-deception will not be able to overcome the obvious scam that Haggard and Swaggart (similar names, no?) represent and move on towards a more honest and fulfilling life.

On the larger scale, this is really inspiring because it looks like the end of the US' fundie fad is coming to an end. This is not just wishful thinking, the fundies have run their coarse and will soon go the way of the Satanic panic, Jim Crow laws, McCarthyism, slavery, etc. Yes, in the near future people will find it humiliating to admit that they were ever part of this thing. And I can proudly say that I knew it was a crock of hooey all along.

[dust]

Righto Matto

[frankenchrist]

Imagine what it is like now for people (who would have to be in thier 60s or older now) to have to admit that they were a staunch supporter of racial segregation back in the 50s and 60s. Yes, they were thumping their Bibles and quoting scriptures and telling everyone how god wants us to keep those dark-skinned people separate from those with light skin. How they have to live that down. Oh, they were sure they were right back then -- god told them, yep god wanted racial segregation and it was their right to uphold it. Imagine how embarrasing to have been duped into believing such innane and hateful drivel.

There will be a time and it wont be long when all the former Haggardites, Dobsonites, Falwellizers, and Robertsonators will have to have that as part of their ugly past.

I would recommentd those folks find a good therapist now to help them deal with the situation. When the fundie craze of the 90s-00s is seen as one of the humiliating and ugly times of American history these people are going to have to sort some things out.

The time is actually now --- hey fundies, the party's over.

[frankenchrist]

Funny song about Haggard:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/video/methandmanass.mp3

[maranatha1984]

Frank: was making a comment on society. J's motive for asking about people's personal religion is out of an ulterior motive. You know it, I know it, and he knows it.

Tikie: So are you saying that religion is not part of society. What is an ulterior motive pray tell? It is an excuse to run from an issue.
Uh lets see ...if I say it is fundy goobleti gook then I can ignore the fact that I am a PRUDE afraid to address one of my beliefs.

Who is defending Dobson- or Haggard...not me- but when I see a hypocrit who comes on a board devoted to religion and then refuse to discuss his own religious beliefs because- UH it is not pertinent- or because he sees an ulterior motive- I say Fake Fraud and Flamer.

Your POV is corrupted by your own inability to recogize your pregidous against religion and Christianity. You hate it you despise it ...but in reality you are no different than the fundies you make fun of (and I am not fundie) BTW.

You are merely a humbug whose own narrow mind blinds him...


I think it is funny that someone who comes on the board touting rational argument is as rational as Jimmy Swaggart...

[freedom43]

For folks who try to present themselves as open minded and progressive, I find it fascinating and seemingly bigoted that they would refer to Haggard using stereotypical terms such as "Queenie" and using epithets such as "Faggard." Seems pretty obnoxious, offensive and hypocritical to me.

They seem to equate Christianity with cult and believe that all Christians are Haggardites. If so, they are sadly mistaken on both counts.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All
We should start a new thread,,,,This is long to load and enlongated also.}

[frankenchrist]

Mara -- you really need to work on your calrity. I'm having a dificult time trying to figure out what you are taling about.

Freedom, Ok you make a point there -- yes, I admit that I was being obnoxious but you can take it.

To be frank -- yes, I do hate Haggard. I hated him before this scandal took place. I loved it when he got popped -- I hope they nail his arse with drug possesion too. I hated Swaggart before his scandal -- and broke out a bottle and a joint and laughed at his sorry <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> when he did his phony cry show on TV. I hate Dobson too , and as soon as he gets nailed for the lying, cheating, scumbag criminal behavior that he's into - I'll break out a bottle of the good stuff and laugh at him too.

Christianity itself is not a cult and I never said that. Fundamentalist xtianity that is nothing more than a promotion for the repugs and money-making scam is a cult.

Hey, I try to be loving and forgiving as the next guy but there are some people who are so vile that forgiveness is not an option for me. Hey, I'm not perfect, not above hatred, never claimed to be. I'm not the most moral guy in the world (I'm a flippin' saint compared to Haggard, Swaggart, and Dobson) but I try to be as upright and honest as I can.

I sure admire the Amish people and how they dealt with that situation with the nut case coming in and killing their children -- could I ever achieve that level of forgiveness and love for my fellow humans? Not likely. In some ways I wish I could but in other ways I think that I will hold on to my basser desires for vengence and justice.

Yeah, so I'm not that biggest fan of cults that's mainly because I was a member of one some years ago and I tend to be a little hyper-vigilent these days, maybe I'll mellow out. I do find fundamentalist xtian groups to be particularly repulsive, I guess that's because living in the USA I have to deal with their stupidity more than any other cult. Dosen't mean I hate all fundies -- no, not even close. People can become misguided and caught up in things -- like cults. But we have found that the damage is reversable. x-cult members galore.

[jbkrems]

84: OK, well, we'll see how they respond below.

I think I am going to ignore Gatordave and Frank, since both appear to be non-responsive to true dialogue here.

[gatordave]

<font color="0077aa">Yes that is the narrow Christian mind I have been talking about. Ignor the truth at the expense of your own children and loved ones. How the church has evolved in my lifetime!!!

I am trying to warn young people in university, college and now even high school of these pyramid frauds, scams and phoney charities, but in my investigations I found they are being spread BY the churches and the professionals we revere: police, firefighters, service clubs, televangilist, Mormons, Lutherens, Baptists, J.W. There is not one I have investigated that these frauds are not in their church and with the full knowledge of the ministers in most cases. And few if any will tell the youth. This is not what I was taught in church.

But all this falls on the deaf professed Christians' ears as above. Denial, denial, denial. S.S.D.Decade.

dave</font>

[philiprosenthal]

friends

1. Does this scandal have anything to do with EveryNation? If not, why are we discussing it here?

2. The name 'frankenChrist' above I find very offensive and blasphemous. I think it may put others off using this board. Please change your username to something else.

[jbkrems]

Phillip:

To answer your first question, it does, but only slightly. Two Sundays ago, Ted Haggard was at Bethel for a Teen Mania/BattleCry conference, in Nashville. So, that's the EN connection.

And I agree that "franken-Christ" is an offensive and blasphemous name.

[frankenchrist]

Frankenchrist is the name of a Dead Kennedy's album from '86. Great tunes, check it out sometime.

And what is blasphemy?

You mean like calling the Holy Trinity the "Hokey Trycicle"?

Or calling the Bible the "Booble" and saying that it consists of the old testical and the new testical?

You mean like that?

Or calling Jesus "Squeezuz" or "Fleezuz"?

Like that?

Or like a cartoon that shows your boy all bloody and nailed to a couple of sticks and a thought baloon over his head that says "Did I turn the oven off?"

Or do you mean doing a photoshop of Jesus in with the dogs playing poker?

Or maybe you mean phonies such as Ted Haggard taking money from his congregation and using it for drugs and sex?

Or perhaps you mean some low life scumbag like James Dobson taking people's money and inflicting psychological damage on them -- you mean like that?

Or do you mean Jimmy Swaggart -- there's a true blasphemer for you.

If I were a xtian I would be outraged by these creeps hijacking my religion and making a mockery of it.

[dust]

Philip, I think it was such a huge thng for us here in the states, it has affected us all. I highly recommend you go to the New Life website and listen to the way they handled it. Yesterday's sermon is on there...and, it stands as a lesson for all on proper and quick action.

http://www.newlifechurch.org/

[ginger1]

Phillip, here is the difference between Haggard , VCF and EN. When one of the VCF pastor committed adultery, he wrote a letter to the congregation asking for forgiveness, he wrote the word Adultery and was supposed to be read by Steve Murrell. Instead, Steve read the letter and REMOVING THE WORD ADULTERY from the letter address to the congregation. Thats how much COVER UP Practice there is in VCF.
They are so afraid that the congregation are NOT "MATURE" enough to handle the situation. Which is really INSULTING , treating people as if they are small children. Who are NOT capable of forgiveness.

I applaud New Life's new senior pastor for the way they handled this. NO COVER UP and they say it as it is. These people know how to forgive and know how to think on their own.
It shows the difference of the way how the Senior Pastor of the New Life church treats the congregation Versus Steve Murrell handle the congregation.

[robert_unknown]

yes, ginger.
i think the same-...

Haggard and the NewLife church makes the right thing. they dont hide what has happened and they try to work through this in a proper manner.

i would have wished, that EN has delt with the scandals the same way that got revealed lately. i mean - NO one knew about the Fetchel scandal or about Nassos money issues.

But they ripped Paul Daniels to pieces...

I am questioning them because of this! Either we walk in the light or not. Sin is not THE problem. Jesus died for our sins. the problem is HOW do we deal with sin.

in this respect NewLife Church is showing us, how it could and how it should happen!

[frankenchrist]

No the problem is how do you deal with the fact that this proves that the New Life Cult's "philosophy" about homosexuality is WRONG. The problem is that this proves that the cult's leader is a liar and a crook.

The problem now is that Haggster has to apologize to all the gay and lesbian people who he told insulting and stupid lies about. Then he should give everything back -- everything he stole. He also has to come clean -- the whole truth. No lies about throwing the meth away and just getting a massage. Then he has to get to the bottom of his relationship with President Pigcrap and the Repug party. The problem is that Haggard is so used to lying that he is not capable of an honest statement -- he literaly couldn't tell the truth even if he wanted to. Then we throw the scumbag in jail.

Then we get rid of Dobson, impeach President Pigcrap, disband all the fundie cults and go on with having a real civilization.

[ginger1]

Frankenchrist, you have no idea how corrupt EN is. What Haggard did is actually far better than what EveryNation Ministry did. Phil Bonasso who actually stole millions, is now being covered up by the EN board. Even though from their own auditors, that their books are bad, EN leaders are spreading lies that their books are clean.

I am glad that Haggard issued a statement and say it as it is, he is a liar and a deceiver. He also said he committed sexual immorality, in EN they don't do that. Everything is White washed. Their repentance is a joke, repenting just in case that the auditor thinks they are getting paid too much. And sure enough the auditors said that Rice and Phil is getting paid too much.

Phil Bonasso with only 150 member is paying himself at $600,000 plus base salary. this does not inlcude building funds, equity of the church stolen and his extortion at the Valley church at $4000 a month. While Rice at $800K with a 3000 member.

[robert_unknown]

look, franky...

1- everyone can have a "philosophy" and defend it. only because Haggard failed personaly doesnt mean that the "philosophy" is false.

2- what has haggard stolen? be carefull - blaming people of a crime can have legal consequences.

3- "we" dont throw anyone into jail, because "we" are not the law.

4- i am comparing the haggard issue with other issues that we have discussed on this board.

i get the impression, that you dont understand much about society, democracy, laws, etc, and are only motivated to post here by an emotional hatred against christianity in general.

so therefore it is, in my opinion, senseless to discuss this matter with you any further, unless you stop cursing and accusing, and try to talk in a mature and in a logical way.

and no - i am not haggards brother or churchmember. i am not even living in the USA. no connection to the issue...

but please try to be more mature if you like to be part of a discussion.

[ginger1]

well, frankenchrist sure sound like Bill Mack.

[robert_unknown]

No! Bill shows more love!

[maranatha1984]

Matt; No home

Tikie; As always my friend you are correct.

Ginger- be gentle with Bill...where has Bill gone hiding to...

[miltietoast]

frankie you almost persuade me to follow you what are your keys to life?
I bet the real haggard would be a leader of your faith

[miltietoast]

frankenx you are correct the fundies are getting their head handed to thembecause much of what goes on in the US bears no resemblance to X(Christ)Meanwhile Jesus is quietly goung about His business growing His invisible kingdom and changing peoples lives from the inside out.Most xtians would be better off following your faith then they would not have to sneak around so much.
The real Jesus I believe is camera shy.

[osakadan]

A question to jbkrems.

You seem to be willing to accept that Haggard is now telling the complete truth. Just wondering why you give him the benefit of the doubt.

[philiprosenthal]

Dear 'Franken****'.
1. your 'user name' is offensive and blasphemous.
2. your language is offensive (swear words etc).
3. you are attacking various Christian leaders without stating grounds to do so.

Are you a Christian? Do you believe in Christ? Do you fear God? The same God who is and will judge scandalous religious leaders will also judge you and me. I think therefore that we need to conduct our conversations in the fear and awe of a Holy God who will judge us also.

[mcmstaff78]

<font size="+2"><font color="ff0000">Don't Feed the Trolls!</font></font>

(Message edited by MCMStaff78 on November 07, 2006)

[matt_hatter]

Phillip, you are feeding a troll. The more you address him, the longer he stays. Don't waste your time on fools. Please, y'all...ignore him.

[ulyankee]

I've been semi-lurking on this thread, so I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but Ted Haggard did not mention Jesus at all in his letter of apology (http://www.newlifechurch.org/TedHaggardStatement.pdf) to the church... he did say that at times he had experienced victory from desires and thoughts that went contrary to everything he believed and taught, and sought help which didn't work for him, and that they came back. Haggard espoused and/or practiced similar inner healing and deliverance and spiritual warfare techniques that some in EN have also taught and practiced (so there's another similarity with EN - the Peter Wagner school of deliverance and spiritual warfare connection), but this shows to me at least that these techniques don't deliver one from sin or gain one victory over sinful thoughts, desires or behaviors. Similar to how a Victory Weekend isn't going to get you deliverance or victory over sin. Jesus' perfect sacrifice alone does. I pray that Ted Haggard doesn't have to endure years of inner healing and deliverance counseling at the hands of those he is submitting himself to that supposedly delivers one from sin (or "contains" it??), but that instead he lays it all at the feet of Jesus. I know that not everyone on this thread considers themselves a Christian but I am and I believe that salvation comes through God's grace alone by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone... for this I will not apologize. There is a need for Jesus over and above the need for accountability, imho.

Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, as Jesus Christ taught his disciples to pray to the Father.

Before I surrendered my life to Jesus, and without the Counselor He sent, the Holy Spirit who lives in Christians and enables us to live the life we've been called to live, I wasn't much different from Ted Haggard in that I had very little (and sometimes zero) control over my sexual passions either. They drove me. But when I abide in Him, He abides in me.

blessings and peace,
ulyankee

[frankenchrist]

No we are not all xtians. Factnet is not -- I repeat not -- I repeat not -- not not not and not and exclusively xtian disccussion board nor is it a xtian organization. This board is for the discussion of religious cults. Factnet was started as a group for ex-scientologists.

Now Bill Mack, I don't know who that is - Googled it and came up with an artist who does sculptural work, somehhow I don't think that's who was intended.

As for blasphemy -- blasphemy is artistic self-expression and it is beautiful. I think we should have an organized moment of blasphemy in all public schools. And I think we should have more enthusiasm for "National Ridicule Jesus Day."

Ted Haggard -- liar and fraud -- tested and proven. Fundie view of sexual orientation -- a lie-- tested and proven. Fundamentalist xtianity -- a failed concept -- tested and proven. Dobson -- the most evil thing crawling the surface of the planet.

Fear god? what a concept, create an imaginary friend and fear it -- loony.

[jbkrems]

Osakadan: If I gave you the impression that Haggard is now stating the complete truth, that impression is not entirely correct. I think Haggard is giving a more complete truth, but there is a lot of issues that we still really do not know. We do not know which of the allegations are true, which are false, what actually happened with Jones, etc. We don't know all the facts.

We do know that there was sufficient sexual immorality for him to be dismissed from the office of Senior Pastor of New Life Church, and we know how that church and their oversight board has responded to this issue.

As far as giving Haggard the "benefit of doubt," would you rather me just totally disregard his comments and disparage him??? That would be disrespectful and unloving. I'd rather accept what Haggard says is true (after all, he has confessed to be guilty of sexual immorality, and to be a deceiver and liar), and love him with the compassion and love of Christ.

Does that clarify things for you, osakadan???

[freedom43]

Haggard quote: "The fact is I am guilty of sexual immorality. And I take responsibility for the entire problem. I am a deceiver and a liar. There's a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it for all of my adult life," he said.

Not sure what frankincense &amp; company are hoping to achieve here besides harassment and gloating/trying to rub Christian’s faces in this mess. This tread was established to discuss the need for accountability among leaders – in a section of FactNet dedicated to a exposing a cult where controversy and leadership failures were/are for the most part swept under the carpet and hidden from the members/churches. No one here is defending/has defended Haggard -- though at least one has been holding out hope against hope to believe the best and holding out for more solid evidence. Many have expressed skepticism towards Haggard and the need to pray. Haggard, by his own admission, has admited that he is a liar/deceiver and that he has committed sexual immorality. By doing so, he has admitted to being a hypocrite, in my view, because these things are contrary to what he preaches. I don’t hear anyone denying that.

If he bought and used drugs -- both illegal and contributing to a nasty underworld of crime in this country -- he deserves to be punished by our court system. No one is denying that. Unless he is independently wealthy and has other sources of income, he makes a living from preaching/the church; so in that sense, any money spent on drugs or a prostitute likely indirectly came from contributions to him/his church/his ministry. No one is denying that.

His wife and family have been hurt the most by his sexual infidelity. And, yes, the people he led and let down are hurt by all of this. And, the name/reputation/face of Christianity that he represents in America has been tarnished by this. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. continued

[freedom43]

To me, this issue is more about infidelity/adultery, lying, hypocrisy and drugs than it is about sexual orientation or homosexuality, per se – though I do think that makes it all the more distasteful to most people, i.e. the idea of two men evokes the “ick” factor for many people. Regardless, I’ve had discussions with many folks on this board and had disagreements about interpretation of Scripture with regard to homosexuality and whether it in and of itself is sinful and whether one can be gay and Christian. I know where they are coming from, and they have made it very clear where they are coming from. They know that I do not believe God is so narrow as many conservatives on this issue and that I believe all of God's commandments are fulfilled by loving Him and your neighbor, i.e. that one can be gay and Christian. I disagree that orientation is a choice and that one can change it. And, I do believe that there is an unhealthy fixation on homosexuality among many on the right and a lot of hurtful rhetoric and hypocrisy. But, the bottom line is that folks here – and people of faith regardless of sect/religion -- have a right to their beliefs and to profess their beliefs on this issue. I may disagree and get tired of hearing their interpretation of scripture. But, that is their right (as it is yours to profess your beliefs).

And, it was/is Haggard's right. Based on his statement about a "repulsive and dark" part of his life, I do not believe he will change his view of homosexuality or admit that his theology was wrong or apologize to gays and lesbians. There are people who engage in same-sex practices who do not and never will consider themselves gay. I certainly hope Haggard can walk in fidelity to his wife and keep the commitment he made to her before God. I believe he will seek counseling to control his behavior and to try to rid himself of same-sex desires. Whether he can/does is between him, God and his wife. He will no longer be respected as a moral authority on this topic or likely on any other – and perhaps that is what Jones was seeking all along. The real question is what are you seeking here? This is a rhetorical question – no need to answer – as it seems fairly obvious to all of us who are here to talk about things as they relate to the cult Every Nation/MSI/Maranatha.

[frankenchrist]

I would have to say that there is an aspect of morbid curiosisty here. As the type of curiosity that draws one to view sideshow freaks.

There is an interesting sociological angle to it. How do cult members deal with evidence that clearly shows that their leader is a fraud and a phoney?

There is a famous psychological study that was performed in the 1950s by a psychologist named Leon Festinger. He studied an early UFO cult (possibly the first cult with a UFO theme.) He witnessed that gathering of the cult members to see what would happen when the UFO was supposed to land according to the prophecy of their leader. Of course the spacecraft was a no-show (just like Jesus' second comming) and then the cult members had to reoganize some thoughts. Some of the members left the cult on the spot. Others demonstrated an even stonger faith than they had in the cult before the failed prophecy.

Here we have the same thing -- on other sites we have former Haggardites who dropped the cult instantly or almost instantly. Then we have the people who can't or won't deal with the reality of the situation and that's where the cognitive dissonance comes in.

Haggard lied to his people. Haggard had been lying to his people for years. He's a phoney, a fraud, a crook, a liar, a con-man, and probably has some mental illness.

Now can one reasonably say that a cult that has been led by someone who is dishonest can be an honest cult? I don't think so.

My first knowledge of Haggard came from a movie by Richard Dawkins called "The Root of All Evil." Haggard was interviewed briefly by Dawkins -- came across as a typical, sleazy used car salesman type preaching the same tired old rhetoric -- "I believe in the bible so I am so superior because Jesus loves me and will punish you nd I am better than other people because I pray to jesus and I'm the best because god loves me the most and hates you" on and on -- y'all know the crap. The clencher was the Haggy demands during his rampage of self-righteous, santimonious, megalomaniacal, self-serving, self-absorbed, holier than thou bullschitt the Hagginator demads "don't be arrogant."

Yep, I think that says it all -- the guys psychology is limited to self-serving reaction formation and projection. As Andy Warhol said, "Don't try to look beneath the surface, there's nothing there."

[matt_hatter]

"Yep, I think that says it all"

Well now that "that says it all" take the advice of old Foghorn Leghorn addressing the puny adolescent chicken hawk:

"Go away boy, you're botherin' me."

[osakadan]

Thanks for the clarification jbkrems.

I don't feel the need to disparage Haggard as there are plenty of others willing to do that. But I also don't need to accept all that he says. Just as you have doubts about this Jones character, I have doubts about Haggard.

Having been around people who used meth, it is seriously doubtful that he just purchased it. A more likely scenario is that he had been given it during other sexual encounters, leading him to purchase it. Someone may just go out and purchase marijuana but that is extremely doubtful with meth. How would he know how to use it?

".........love him with the compassion and love of Christ." Yes, with your beliefs you have an obligation to do so. But I also feel that you have a responsibility to use discernment.

On a seperate note - Have to agree with frankenchrist's comment on Haggard's appearance in Richard Dawkins' "The Root of All Evil." Anyone who has seen his "performance" would be hardpressed to feel compassion for Haggard at this moment.

[dust]

Matt: "Go away boy, you're botherin' me."

Dust and Forword: http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[40days40years]

You know frankenpinko. You have a lot of hatred in you towards christians. It almost seems like your a Nietzche fanatic. 90 years a go you would be in the crowd whole heartedly cheering Lennin and advocating the wiping out of christianity. We have seen the legacies of Stalin and Mao and others that are ferociously anti-christian. The world has gone down your route before, thanks but no thanks and by the way it was the bible believing boys that stopped Hitler. You have freedom of speech because christians that came before wanted a system where they could have freedom of speech and the right to worship God the way they saw fit and it was christians that brought reform to problems in America in the past. Quiet frankenly you could use a massive dose of Dobson and Robertson and by the way this board is not really affiliated with Haggard so I have know idea how you consider him our "cult" leader.

[40days40years]

Oh and Frank, Dawkins was freaking out over christians who don't believe in evolution and was acting like an insecure scalded squirrel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkUi6dhwWx0). He clearly lost it and is super http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLN1Bd7M1hc&amp;mode=related&amp;search=insecure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wcG3yoSAdk&amp;mode=related&amp;search=

[frankenchrist]

Ha ha ha ha!!!!

Well, thank you Archie Bunker!!

This is priceless, complete with the term "pinko" and everything!

Hey 40d/40y, would you mind if I copied this one and pasted it in an atheist forum for everyone to make fun of?

[40days40years]

You like that one? I use to listen to a guy called J. Vernon McGee. He had a slow drawl with a wry but happy voice. He once told a story about a man talking to an old preacher and saying that he did not believe in hell. The old preacher chuckled a little and said that's o.k one day you will.

[pilgrim]

To Everyone,

The following link shows an article called Ted Haggard is a Globalist.

http://prisonplanet.com/articles/november2006/071106_b_Haggard.htm


You can also find the following link in the above article.


http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2globalchurch.htm

[miltietoast]

frankie i am still waiting for YOUR keys to a victorious life---please help me escape from this repulsive life---please take some time and help me

[robert_unknown]

franky surely will say "between the goo and you is a whole zoo"... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

what sort of happiness do you expect from nihilims?

[frankenchrist]

Interesting --"Keys to a victorious life," that's what you want. The "zoo and goo" bit must be another estoteric fundie line -- I don't get it. The term "nihilims" -- new one for me too. So I looked it up and got this, "nihilims is a common misspelling of nihilism."

Rather presumptuous to assume that I am a nihilist, but it's a matter of perception -- I see fundamentalists as nihilists. People who really don't believe in anything.

Keys to a victorious life:

First of all I would say come to terms with the fact that this life is the only one you have. Make the most of it. Question everything (yes, that does include what I say.) authority exists only to be questioned, challenged, and discredited. Learn. Knowledge is power. It's good to be open-minded, but not so open that your brains fall out.

Be good to others but protect yourself and loved ones from harm. Non-violence is admirable but we can't all be Martin Luther King -- do your best to be kind.

Question authority. Seek the truth, love the truth, believe in the truth. But remember -- truth is hard work. Nobody is going to just hand you the truth and say "here is is! the truth, all in neat littl file folders, alphabetized, numerical, and color-coded." Nope, you have to work to achieve the truth.

Reality exists in the here and now. Learn science and read books. Enjoy nature -- get out of the city when you can, breath fresh air. Eat good food (some would argue that with me because I do eat meat) and get some exercise every day. Get enough sleep and avoid too much caffiene (there again I do like my coffee).

Question, examine, analyse, investigate. Don't take absolutes for answers. Don't fear the intellect -- love your mind. Trust yourself -- always be suspicious of authority. Persue your own goals and live life to the fullest. Have experiences. Avoid drugs (though I admit to smoking a bit of pot on occaision) and alcohol (well, I do have a few drinks now and then) moderation is the key. Study cultures, religions, and customs other than your own. Don't smoke or support the manufacture of any destructive items.

Don't believe anything that wealthy, phony, pseudo-religious preachers tell you -- they are all liars. Question authority. Question god.

Examine the evidence and get more than one opinion on everything. Don't believe something just because god said so -- god is almost always a liar. Face the facts, though reality may not be what you would like at least you know that it is.

Listen to good music. I'm a big fan of hard-bop jazz. Rollins, Davis, Silver, Mingus -- ah, the good stuff. Paint a picture. Commit blasphemy and anjoy it.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

[matt_hatter]

I could go on, but you get the idea.

Travel the world with a bunch of anarchist to the economic summits and throw trash cans through Starbucks windows.

Hold 39 cent poster board signs with Cindy Sheehan in Crawford, Texas in 100 degree July heat.

Join a PETA radical group and throw red paint on patrons waiting in line at the Outback Steakhouse.

Yell until you have no voice left at a NOW rally in DC: "I know we look like men, but we're NOT!"

Watch indy films that make absolutely no sense, but proclaim that they are the most brilliant pieces of filmography since Clockwork Orange.

Oh...and finally find a job delivering pizza at the bohemiam noir pizza joint where the women are braless and the underdeveloped men are bloodshot of eyes and mind.

Just thought I would add a few that you forgot.
It's a Wonderful Life, George Bailey.

[40days40years]

But Franky your truth is a lie and yeah sometimes someone does hand you truth on a platter at times. How can you prove to me what Jesus says is a lie? Now I will prove to you that 1+1 = 2 but I have to wait for a more simple example that the board can show youhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif.

You said: First of all I would say come to terms with the fact that this life is the only one you have. Duhh Frank, how long does it last? How do you know the spirit does not live on? Should I take your word for it that it does not exist after death?, you just told me to trust my own intellect and not yours. Now you want me to have faith in what you think?

You said: Don't believe anything that wealthy, phony, pseudo-religious preachers tell you -- they are all liars. All humans are liars once in awhile except for Jesus but what happens if your a bigger liar than them? What do I do then?

Frankie said: Reality exists in the here and now.

40: uhhh does that apply also to those on a drug trip? When you think about it reality or perceived reality exists in the here and now for all time. You can think about the past and you can think about the future but reality for everyone is right now and it will be the same way 500 years from now. My father before his death started to see God, before that he believed that when your dead your dead like a dead dog. What if your wrong Frank? Question for you Frank, did you score 100% on every test question you took in school? Maybe your messing up again? God loves you but he does want you to think harder.

Your philosophy is non sensical. Could it be that all truth does not reside in that little piece of real estate that is 6" x 6" in that little place you call a brain? I am most likely being generous in the dimensions of the thing.

This is a college chult Frankie. Hey everybody, would Frankie be a sharp? You remind me of an Oakland Raider hooligan headed off to Denver to do damage, it use to be more impressive when their team was not so weak.

[40days40years]

Oh and J-2 that is very impressive that you told Dr. Dobson off or at least his / organization when you were only 14. Now I was not christian at 14 but I know that if I was? that would be the farthest thing from my mind to send him a letter about destructive practices/theology. We need to send you on a truth crusade against the great Phil B! with all the ex Palos Verdes members. I would love to see Ginger in commando action!

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

40/40: We need to send you on a truth crusade against the great Phil B! with all the ex Palos Verdes members. I would love to see Ginger in commando action!<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I'm helping out Tikie on one of the future parts of his blog (http://everynationmsiexposed.blogspot.com/) so I guess I will be going on a truth crusade. And Ginger already is in commando action. All of us are already fighting EN and its leaders just by telling our stories here on the internet where everybody can read them. I bet we're far more effective here than we would be if we physically confronted Phil or any of the other leaders. If we started picketing EN churches the members would write us off as kooks, but when we post here anyone who is willing to look at us semi-objectively can see that we're normal people (except for Wildwood who is crazy but harmless http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif). On top of that, posting stuff online from the comfort of our own homes is much more comfortable that having to travel all the way to Tenessee just to tell Rice to his face what a selfish jerk he is.

[robert_unknown]

"When you think about it reality or perceived reality exists in the here and now for all time. "

you forgot to mention that one of the most important Gods of the atheist, matter, has been dethroned by scientificaly research already many years ago...

wasnt it marx, father of modern atheism, who said, that matter is infinite, without an end and forever? didnt he, by saying so, give matter godly attributes to base his wacko ideas about live and to create his new religion?

now every child knows that matter is neither unlimited nor eternal. but our atheist friends base their believe system solely on "the here an now"...

its funny, that the atheists blame us for believing in something that is without evidence (thats what they think at least), but at the same time they base their believe in the "here and now", a thingy without stability, without infinity, a dethroned idea of a madman filled with hate (Marx). they think they can be judges of truth but have to confess at the same time, that they dont know what truth is (thats by the way illogical - how can one judge something without knowing if its right or wrong?)...

i would say - "atheism is the opium for the people" - illogical, scientifically wrong - illusions for people who need desperate help to not believe in a higher beeing then themselves...

no hard feelings Frankybaby... just my five cents about it ;)


However - this kind of discussions are as senseless as the discussions with Hardcore-Weiner-Disciple Mos... discussions with religous people are always a senseless pain in the a** - i am outta here...

[dust]

Just an FYI, Atheism is a very powerful belief system. It is a fierce, dogmatic religion. Look to the world political sytems that have been "not so fun places to live." North Korea, China and Cuba have traditionally suppressed religious freedom and officially (often forcibly) endorsed atheism.

Christianity has a few skeletons that it has openly repented for, but, in the BIGGER picture has saved more lives even on a practical level. There is ample and praiseworthy world history to make us jubiliant about our Christian beliefs. We take the concept of "hospital" for granted and taking care of the sick as "normal" humanity. It wasn't normal before Chrstianity. Even in the last 2000 years, we can trace the patterns of humanity and the Christian infuence in reform (for child welfare) for taking people out of harsh mental asylums, for leveling the playing field with education. We ALL take this for granted, and are so spoiled in our current world. Take Christ out of the picture....well do your own research. Look at the countries who have.

I can see how especially Americans believe Christianity is oppressive because we are fiercly independent and we take our freedoms for granted. Praise God for our freedom, but get a perspective. The first thing a government does to get CONTROL of the people is remove public worship, and oppress spreading the gospel.

Atheism is very much a dogmatic religion, and has sour fruit to show for it. However, I think we are dealing here with something more in the form of Satanism. The Satanists says, "do want you want."

[miltietoast]

thanks frankie
You remind me of myself 30 years ago, wouch?You poor fellow(I assume you have no money or you would be a liar and a thief)
I was looking nobly for truth 30 years ago.I was assisted in my search by a little pot,a little alcohol,a little sex with any girl that didn't say no 5 times. I do not think I hurt any of those girls "in the then and now" but I do not know if any got pregnant or had abortions,left school to raise my child,(oh this is starting to depress me and that hinders my search for truth) I wonder if I truthfully and in reality have a little(oops adult) milty running around? Something inside of me says maybe,I will dismiss that because I can not prove it.That makes me feel better for awhile.You know in truth it is really all about me and my feelings(feelings how that sounds so superficial for intelect truth seeker like me)Frankie I had to believe that there were no absolutes in this world otherwise I could be measured by that standard and what "honest" truthseeker wants their "truth" destroyed by fact? If my truth did not line up with your truth then I had to have "tolerence" for your viewpoint or otherwise violate my lofty ideals of truth. In other words I said ,"there are no absolutes"which caused me a delema. The statement that," there are no absolutes" is an absolute statement. My theory of life is destroyed before I start. Wosrse of all I continually violate my highest ideal of "tolerence".If there are no absolutes then I must tolerate all ideas. I found that I could not do that and it was I that was the biggest liar and deceiver. Even worse I "knew I was lying aginst the most important person in the world ME! (sorry frankie you are not that important to me) I had to lie against the truth,I suppressed what I knew in my heart was truth,instead I professed that I was a really smart guy,I held truth in unright ways(to cover my butt)this caused my thinking to become vain(all about me). I wonderhow many times I exchanged truth,which is unfortunately an absolute, for my made up lies to allow me to do what I wanted to do and stamp truth and tolerence on it.Let us us not think about the big picture consequences of our deceitful search for truth. Is their a truth that can set me free from this captivity? Frankie I have tried your ways and their path leads to destruction in "this" finite world. Any truthful ideas out there?

[dust]

Miltie, were you reading my mind..yesterday I had a big discussion about the idea of "absolutes."

Milite writes: In other words I said ,"there are no absolutes"which caused me a delema. The statement that," there are no absolutes" is an absolute statement. My theory of life is destroyed before I start.

Dust: My two freshmen years did me in. Highschool and College.

Catholic highschool: 9th grade religion class. The priests bring a bible out and tell us most of the stories in it are NOT true. There was no Adam and Eve, No Job, no Noah, just stories to show the attributes of God. This had a huge effect on me, which was finished off in my first year of college.
My first sociology class. Our mantra in my program of study which was also a TEST question, " was:

The only universal truth is that there are NO universal truths.

What did I know at 19 years old. These guys were ph.D.'s. I was enamored, impressed and my faith was eroded and replaced by the faith of TOLERANCE, which I ate up and lived then for many years, believing nothing and believing everything but mostly living the religion of "ME."

And, then the beautiful miracle, of God establishing his ABSOLUTE truth in my heart, and being ministered back to the absolute truth of God and the absolute truth of His Word.
It is grand to live in the Godly world of absolutes.

Relative scripture... That is the worst bondage, because then, we are at the hands of man and his Shifting of truth, when God's plan is the only plan we can trust.

Relativism, humanism, tolerance, rewriting the bible, denying its truth.....that was my bondage for 20 years and it had its price.

[j2theperson]

Here's an interesting tidbit. James Dobson has just withdrawn from participating in the counselling and restoration of Ted Haggard (http://www.krdotv.com/story.cfm?nav=news&amp;storyID=1353), claiming "I don't have the time to devote to such a critical responsibility".

My intitial response was "Wow, that's kind of harsh"--after all, aren't Dobson and Haggard friends? What could be more important than ministering to a friend in their time of need? But, to be fair, I could be misreading this because Dobson does later on state "I certainly hope to speak with him -- friend to friend -- as he moves forward."

Still, it seems like a harsh way to treat a friend.

[gatordave]

<font color="0077aa">I just love the way so-called Christians and their distracters play with semantics i.e. ,<font color="aa00aa">"there are no absolutes which caused me a delemma. The statement that," there are no absolutes" is an absolute statement"</font>.....and they debate, and debate, and debate, and debate while the country goes to hell and the uninitiated, financially unsophisticated, immigrants, seniors, the ethnic communities, the deaf culture and our kids in university, college and now even high school are being coerced into one of the most evil "brainwashing" systems on the face of the earth. Christians and distracters alike should unite against this evil brainwashing before we all reap what these criminals, the "wolves in sheep’s clothing" are quietly sowing in our churches and throughout our communities.

dave

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