RELEVANCE OF A CULT DISCUSSION BOARD RE EN

[speakword2004]

Dear fellow posters

I realise there needs to be a place to blow off steam and to seek healing and I have participated in this over the last 2 years and agreed to try and keep the fun stuff to the "Bunny Trails". My research and networking has confirmed to me that the FACTNET board is well read and followed by the worldwide community and especially by the Cultic members of the church, but also those seeking help and. information.

I do not think that endless discussions about eschatology or WOF issues, as examples, are particularly helpful unless they tie in directly with EN. Over the past few weeks other topics have also been raised which have little direct bearing on EN and should be debated or discussed elsewhere. These include Ted Haggard, Ragamuffin Gospel Controversies and Odong Fong of Calvary Chapel

The Ted Haggard example was one thread where I felt that lessons could be drawn from and where we could draw some comparisons in the way in which scandals have been handled within EN.
In some EN churches the Ragamuffin gospel is promoted and disseminated so we could approcah it it that way. The pet hobby horses of people not relevant to the discussion belong elsewhere.

(Message edited by speakword2004 on November 17, 2006)

[speakword2004]

On a monthly basis I get feedback about how Factnet has helped a person or how it has attracted the attention of some EN leader or local eldership. The impact is huge and it is a testimony not only to the efforts of many individuals here, but also to the fact that our Lord Jesus Christ is using this forum as a prophetic witness to the church and to the many hurt, abused and misused individuals who read and lurk here.

With this in mind, please consider the tone of your posts (I have had to adjust my own attitude at times) and make it easier for those seekers who want to learn to be able to do so.

Let's stop feeding trolls and falling for bait tactics.

Let's keep our posts pertinent to the title of this particular board and the threads contained therein.

Factnet has more generic boards and also specific boards where other church groups and church leaders may be discussed ad nauseam.

[speakword2004]

I do realise that former EN members like myself are especially sensitive to anything that they may feel to be control or leadership. I do believe that this is a place to say anything about EN that you wish and I support free speech. Just keep it relevant and easy to access is all that I ask.

I want to help my fellow Christians in the church and also those deceived and trapped by the cultists in the church. EN is a church controlled by a cult and is more dangerous and scary than MCM ever was.

In saying anything about EN that you would like, I will support your right to say it so long as it does not blaspheme Jesus Christ or targets individuals with the aim to degrade and unfairly humiliate.

[wisedove]

amen

[40days40years]

speak I have a great deal of respect for you but I have to sincerely disagree.

WOF is one of the foundations of this ministry. Rice and Phil were deeply immersed in the teachings of Hagin and Copeland.

Eschatology I also think is relevant since many of the top leaders in EN, believe the tribulation is past, that the antichrist has come and gone 2000 years ago and that the actual mark of the beast is not literal. I know you are post-mil but I think the endtime theology supported by many of the EN leaders is wrong and dangerous and I think it is good to let the kids in EN know that it is okay to be pre-mil and believe that the millenium has not taken place and that the book of Revelations is a real message from God warning us about events that may soon take place.

[wisedove]

amen

[40days40years]

EN is NOLR. Their endtime theology profoundly effects what they believe concerning things like dominion and their future rule as the manifest sons of God/ many membered man child. Their endtime theology determines what they are now and what they believe they will become.

[ulyankee]

40/40, also it seems that EN is now trying to characterize their beliefs as more Reformed, not just in eschatology but overall. They are distancing themselves from the New Apostolic Reformation, no longer calling themselves apostolic, etc. (though they still maintain terms like 5-fold, covering, apostolic, etc. in the 2010 Initiative (http://www.everynation.org/assets/files/pdf/The_2010_Initiative.pdf)).

Not to get into an eschatological debate, but discussing with *real* postmils on the issue has really helped me sort out the difference between EN's beliefs and *orthodox* Christian beliefs. One thing I've noticed is that the argument for EN's beliefs have generally meant debunking dispensationalists. This doesn't necessarily mean that one's own position is right, imho.

Also, this past couple of weeks I've been wading through EN tapes and I think I finally have a pretty good handle on the belief system promoted by EN leadership, even though they generally don't get into it in too much detail until conferences or ENLI... so when they get to the point where they are fairly well indoctrinated into the submitting to leaders thing. Oh, and they're already committed members.

Though my brain hurts!!! So to try to sort it out more, I went to a systematic theology book we have from when my hubby took a systematic theology course in college. Turns out the book is a well-known, respected systematic theology (http://www.biblecentre.net/theology/books/lb/st-Index.html) from a Reformed perspective (which surprised me, since he went to Lee University, which is Wesleyan/Pentecostal!). I was also surprised to see that according to this writer, the prevailing Reformed eschatology has been amillennial (I had thought that Reformed eschatology was primarily postmil similar to Christian Reconstructionists).

And based on what I'm reading, there's just no way EN is truly Reformed, not just in the area of eschatology but also GOVERNMENT (and yes, I mean post-reformed EN). According to *real* Reformed theology local churches are AUTONOMOUS. EN says its government is based in the local church (http://www.everynation.org/en/top/about-us/every-nation-churches.html), but it's actually centered in a smaller group of leaders in what is now known as the International Ministry Team and International Policy Council (not to mention the legal boards). According to the new Policy Governance structure, it is these boards who set policy and the vision and values of the movement. The local church is bound to follow these, to tithe 10% of their total general revenue to EN, and to recognize "the role of Every Nation’s International Ministry Team in the spiritual leadership of their local churches." Even with more regional representation on those boards now, the local churches are not truly autonomous.

I just keep plugging away, as the Lord enables me. Though I agree that trying to tie things in to EN (or MCM) as much as possible would help the vast number of lurkers who never post - much of what they read here certainly challenges everything they've been taught and can be really confusing. And the first response often times is Talk to the Pastor/Talk to my Leader. And depending on who that person is or who trained them we know where that can end up.

So trying to get at the truth as opposed to the PR/spin is very important, imho.

[40days40years]

God bless you Uly but how am I ever going to figure this thing out. I don't care what Rice says. 6 yard long color charts are SUPER COOL. A+B+C = gobbldygook or whatever. Please just spell it out, anybody.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All
Thank you Speak for getting this back on tract,so to speak. he, he a small nerd pun, and telling us that people are watching. Sometimes here I have felt that, a message, a note was for someone. There is real terror, malaise when it dawns on people that things are now not well in En, in spite of what they have been told, or being told. I went through that in Maranatha. Those nagging things in one's gut, parts that don't quite fit, an unkindness from the leadership, something promised heartily never kept however as they had more important things to get done, ie. saving the world. These things add up, it means something.}

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi Ul
I think that you hit the nail on on it's head, so to speak. That is the true danger in this group, it is why people are so hurt. Why , it takes time to rebuild one's life, trust even in the Lord. All things are not know to new persons coming in to this group.

Even when questioned En pastors may not know the inside belief system. Or worse, it could be argued that it is a huge money making club in God's name was created for funding a few leaders in a great worldly style. Either the theology is suspect in an accurate doctrine, or that it was/is a fascade that was created or evolved into something else that they were chasing, and chase still. There are major parts missing. I think that is what Dust and Forward are trying to tell us from their recent experience in this group in their flagship church.

[sameo]

I remember being told to shun traditional churches-other main stream denominations like Baptist, Methodist, etc. And of course I don't claim they have it exactly right...however, they seem to teach simple basics. IN Maranatha I was hearing strange teachings that felt so foreign to me. As a Baptist I could go to a Methodist church, or Presbyterian, etc. and though there would be slight differences, it was still the same. When I went to Maranatha for the very first time, it was right away very different...and strange. And though I was a young girl of 17 yrs. these teachings made me feel funny, and I always questioned these things. It didn't feel right initially. Interesting, I never felt strange(as a Baptist) going into a Methodist, etc. denomination. They never told me to drop all my friends who didn't go to MY church. (even the christian ones-because they weren't in maranatha) I never in the Baptist church had to ask permission from the pastor for any thing. Again, I'm not saying these traditional churches are 'the way'-but they sure weren't sect like and strange. Sects remove themselves from the rest of society...and we in maranatha certainly did that. Our only contact with the outside world was in 'witnessing' to them...trying to win them over. Coming into Maranatha was an adjustment...in being told to give up my oldest dearest friends outside Maranatha, and exiting Maranatha was the same adjustment...in that I NOW had to figure out HOW to live in the world I had shunned for so many years. HOw to NOW accept 'outsiders' back into my life.

The truth is...listen to your gut, your instincts.

[sameo]

sorry if this is off topic...something Uly and copper said...just triggered this memory.

I think the danger is when we stop thinking for ourselves. I am not saying be bullheaded and don't listen to your elders, pastors...however, what happens is we somehow stop thinking at all...and become soley dependant on what the leaders tell us. And we lose, over time, that ability to hear our gut telling us this isn't right. And the sad thing is we won't listen to outside advice-from people not in EN/mar....because we are trained/brainwashed into thinking "outsiders" are idiots who don't know anything. Caught between 'a rock and hard place.' That's the first sign something isn't right.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Sameo,
No I think that you are right on point here. We can help others, people who loved me tried to help me see, and I am so thankful for that. Well said sameo.}

[sameo]

Yeh, copper, I remember all the people who were genuinely concerned for me too. I was surprised at the guilt these outsider friends had/felt--after i left Maranatha-and they thought, looking back, they should have pushed harder to get me out. The fact is that many of our former friends, and our biologicial families suffer from our experience in Mar/EN too. Even though they weren't there. The fact they felt helpless to help us.

thank you for your kind words,coppertree, always,

[hawaii8085]

there is an old saying

when the student is ready, the teacher appears

Many of our friends, parents, etc... tried to pull us out before the student was ready. I know every missionary who knew my family offered to fly out and get me. It was a bit of a shock to hear Bill from south africa, Berna from Indonesia .... etc are going to come see you, fly there on their own nickle just because they were worried about me.

For me, when the student was ready God became my teacher, He gave me a step by step way to leave MCM and still grow in God. It took me 3 years to complete. (one of the hardest steps to take was to understand that some of the restrictions which I had thought came from MCm actually came from the Father.)

In many ways I have been a teacher just going about my business. Once in a while God drops a student in my lap, usually it is someone who has experienced spiritual abuse and needs someone to walk them from being told what to do, to making all of their own decisions.

What concerns me now days is that the people God is bringing me aren't coming from fringe churches like EN. they are coming from 4 square, Assemblies of God, and independent Charismatic churches. Last year I was pushed out of church by a leader who scoffed at the sheparding movement, but Ironically was better at shunning than MCM ever was.

Unfortunately the problem of abuse of authority in the church is huge and thanks to books like undercover by john bevere it dosen't seem to be getting any smaller.

I have a friend who believes that the understanding of the sin of the Nicolaiatians (sp?) (which God says he hates) lies in the definition of the word which suggests leadership exhalting itself over and dominating the laiety. If that is true there is a serious problem with many churches, not just the 'green berets"

[matt_hatter]

Sameo: I think the danger is when we stop thinking for ourselves

Exactly. How many "testimonies" have I read in here where the initial gut feeling was telling folks to leave?! (during those first few meetings)

It is nice to be at a place that I think for myself, and even question my Creator when I don't understand things. He can take it.

[robert_unknown]

"If that is true there is a serious problem with many churches, not just the 'green berets"

there is a serious problem in many churches. ithe problem is called "New Order of the Latter Rain", which opens a way of thinking thats in contradiction to the bible. sheperding, authoritanianism, abuse... are the logical extensions of NOLR.

the church today suffers greatly because of this crap!