Forked Tongues

[osakadan]

I have to preface this by saying this is not an attack on Christians. Have been chatting to plenty here who I like just fine. This probably doesn't belong in the MCM thread either, But, I just remember getting Copeland et al shoved down my throat at MCM so figure it fits.

Have just been checking out youtube and there are so many GREAT clips. It is 20 years since I saw Copeland but he almost looks younger than me!

So the challenge is, give a link to the video you like best and an explanation of why it belongs in the forked tongue thread.

Here's mine.


Benny Hinn - Nominated for proof of equal opportunities in the USA. An immigrant can rip someone off just as well as a local.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc_hd_cQFqw

[mcmstaff78]

Not fair, not fair osakadan. I simply do not have the stomach to watch these guys anymore. (Although I have to confess that, late at night, when no one is around, I've sometimes lingered on TBN watching, with a certain morbid fascination - like rubberneckers past a three car pile-up on the Interstate - sickened by what I see yet unable to look away.)

BTW, is there a particular Benny Hinn video that you feel is most representative of him deserving a place on this list?

[ginger1]

I watched Theo Wolmarans utube. His house cost a little over $700,000. Which is not bad compare to Phil Bonasso and Rice Brookes that cost over $1 million, even Rice , his mortgage is at $1.9 million.

[osakadan]

true not fair... Not sure what is worse...TBN or Dr Phil....They are all as sincere as each other. And as a non-christian, in my little mind I don't classify them as christian either.

I started with one clip looking at Copeland and investment in a housing estate and his jets. That led me onto a truly sickening Jan Crouch, then Benny.

Why did Benny stick out? There was nothing so special about the clip but I had never seen him before. But hearing him, I just wondered how anyone could believe a word. It just dripped of insincerity.

[lablady2]

Wow, I don't know if I could stomach that either. I resent the fact that TBN comes in my cable package; I'm not sure I could subject myself to that kind of torture.

Kenneth, wearing his little flannel shirt, sitting in his humble little cabin, being all Texas and folksy sets my teeth on edge.

Great, now I need some Tums.....

[lablady2]

osaka: Here's my dirty, little secret. Benny Hinn is so slick and slimy that I almost don't feel sorry for the people that get sucked in by him. I'll give MCM some credit for having a better veneer. How much discernment do you need in order to know that this guy is all about the money?

[osakadan]

Ginger...Just watched the Theo Wolmarans clip. The whole faith healing thing is weird. Obviously I can't comment too much because I don't believe anyway but if I did...why are all the healings about short legs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxBsQajIwEI

Seeing him slaying people in the spirit (is that the right word?) reminds me of people trying to push me over at least one Sunday a month.

[lablady2]

"Seeing him slaying people in the spirit (is that the right word?"

Slaying people in the spirit? How true.

[matt_hatter]

This stuff is not Christianity in my book. I don't even like the word Christian anymore as it means nothing more than demographic term. I like my Russian immigrant friend's term: "believer".

We are all faced with the question that Jesus asked, "Who do you say that I am?" Despite the nonsense that exists in the trinket church, the wounds (that have long since healed), my answer, after 30 years, still remains the same as Peter's.

Not an attempt to say I am better off than anyone, because I am a 'believer' far from it, just my personal feelings...hashing over these snakes, unproductive. Sorry if this offends, not my intention.

[osakadan]

LL2...any bets on how many times Kenneth & Gloria have been under the knife? They look way better than any 70 year old I know. Is it all that good living or maybe the formaldehyde?

Truly, how in need and hurting are people to believe in any of these shysters?

[osakadan]

Have to agree with you matt. Even as an outsider, I wouldn't classify them as christians. But then it isn't my call.

Sorry for putting this thread here, it probably doesn't belong. I guess I just have never addressed before and found it interesting, that I could have ever been sucked in.

It is kinda like watching a car wreck.

[matt_hatter]

Please don't take my post wrong, I am not some saint who has "overcome to the end" and others who have chosen a different path are somehow lesser. There have been many times of deep separation from my faith over the last 30 years. Hopefully, we are all still seekers, instead of the Copelands of the world, who seem to have pat answers for all of life's mysteries.

Truly like watching a car wreck, I know the feeling, I sometimes cannot switch the channel on TBN, as my mouth drops open!
Matt

[ginger1]

Osakadan, I don't believe that a lot of people got healed there in Theo's ministry. I did have witnessed healing, true healings but they are not televangelist. These are just average christian people. There are some healings here and there.
If those people truly have that kind of healing ministry, why not visit a local hospital and pray for thsoe people ? Its not like they have a real 9-5 job. And it is their ministry and their job to visit the widows and the sick. And yet they do not do that, for that, I smell fraud.

Biblically speaking, it is THEIR JOB to VISIT THE SICK.

[ginger1]

Do you remember in the scripture where There is a pool where all the sick people gather ? They all are waiting for the angel to stir up the water, and anybody who first dip themselves in, get healed.

Jesus went there and healed ONE person there. Does these ministries ever went to the hospital and lay hand on the sick people? Who claimed to have healing ministries ? Jesus has a healing ministry and He did visit the sick people.

[speakword2004]

Theo Wolmaarans! The last time I saw him was 10 years ago when I went to go see Lester Sumrall.
Theo made his money off a mega church here in SA. The Southern drawl he uses is not that old. There was a billboard of him and Bev next the highway which for some reason faded colours till her lipstick was a flourescent orange. Quite grotesque. Little known fact is that Theo counselled his church to vote against negotiations with The ANC in the last Whites referendum here in 1991/2.

[banshee]

My favorite is this guy http://youtube.com/watch?v=ErBaRajz-dU

I mean, I know the Holy Spirit was like a mighty WIND, but he takes it to a whole new level.

[osakadan]

They are hilarious! Took me a 2nd viewing before I realised it wasn't real.

[banshee]

don't know how true, but I remember hearing that it was one of his own media guys who put the original tape together.

Gosh, it appears poor Robert hadn't learned how to manifest authority with his staff http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif

[matt_hatter]

Speak, word up! TBN announced that Binny Hinn is coming to SA in March. Be there or be square!!!

[mcmstaff78]

The Tilton video is hilarious. The farts were too loud to have been real, but it was hilarious none the less. I mean, satiracally speaking, it was a perfect commentary on what comes out of his mouth.

My dirty little confession - this is the guy that sucked me into the WoF movement way back in '85 or '86. What a fool I was. May God have mercy on me and everyone else ever suckered in by Bob Tilton.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi m78
I got to see one of Bob Tilton's newer TV show. It was wild, He was on with his wife and their two poddles. The dogs were done up well, I thought.}

[mdillon]

The farts were too loud to have been real,

c'mon 78, quit being too picky http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

banshee I have heard the same thing about his own media folks putting this together and remember a videotape being passed around probably 10 or more years ago. jrj might have insight. hey, speaking of...jonesee whatsay an 'edited' version of some old MSPN recordings makes the rounds, knowhati'msayin http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif ...I'm thinking of Ricey and the globe...

copper-The dogs were done up well, I thought.

the poodles looked good too, copper

dilly

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Dilly,


Yes I can see it now, old all night prayer meetings on video. I would love to see the one with Rice holding the world in his hands also, strange things happened at 4-ish in the morning. I was told that the Russians called that, after 3am the "wolf" hours.
Ok I am getting into this, we could have gobble, gubble, gubble ,in the background for Thanksgiving, etc. it would make great Christmas gifts.}

[lablady2]

matt said: "This stuff is not Christianity in my book. I don't even like the word Christian anymore as it means nothing more than demographic term. I like my Russian immigrant friend's term: "believer". "

This one's for you, matt. A lot of negative things are said about the church, and I don't know anything about this couple or their ministry, but the article darn near brought tears to my eyes. To me, this is the work of a "believer".

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15993470/site/newsweek/

[matt_hatter]

Thank you labby, ironically, I saw Rick on Fox News last night and he emphatically said that evangelicals have fixated on abortion and homosexuality so much that they have lost their compass on other issues...we rage over these issues, but how many of us have adopted a baby? worked an AIDS clinic?

Allie and I watched a show last night, a documentary with Ashley Judd and Salma Hayek (more than enough to keep me interested) and they traveled Latin America to raise awareness to AIDS prevention. Many "macho" ideas in the Latin countries, thus, many women infected by their "closet" husbands...anyway, the compassion of these two women convicted me terribly. They were dirty, sweaty, no make up (just the fact that two glamour girls allowed themselves to be filmed like this is a novel approach-most celebs always make these things a photo shoot) and hugged these women and promised personal help, which I sincerely feel they meant. Most women were so concerned that their children will be left motherless (the men are always gone).

Like I said, they are doing what the church should be doing. Terribly convicting, but the sad truth is, I probably won't go beyond the conviction.

[osakadan]

Gives you hope doesn't it. It could a lot to change people views. Let's hope the movement isn't taken over by the 'god's judgement' brigade.

[lablady2]

matt: Well, you won't see me hopping a plane for Africa anytime soon, either. Some of us are called to our kids, grandchildren, aging parents, and our local communities. One work is as important as the other in my book. The story just touched me. Good to see something other than some guy with a bad combover jumping around on a stage.

[lablady2]

A co-worker at the job I left two years ago was a fundamentalist. He would rant about abortion and other moral issues. I asked him why he and his wife hadn't adopted a child or become involved in agencies that helped pregnant teens. His answer was that parents needed to teach their kids not to have sex and it wasn't his responsibility to help because kids were sinning by being sexually active. Must be nice to have a neat little world.

(Message edited by lablady2 on December 02, 2006)

[osakadan]

Unfortunately,the world is full of hypocrites, and not just christian ones.

I work in labour issues, and it surprises me the number of people who will later sell out their coworkers when they get the chance.

[lablady2]

osaka: yep, we humans can be pretty disappointing. I used to tell my boss (I was an admin asst for a while) that he needed to replace the entire work force with labrador retrievers.

[osakadan]

surprisingly, my 3 cats are as loyal as labs (and as selfish as people).

[matt_hatter]

Gives you hope doesn't it

Actually the world I live in now is surrounded by believers who NEVER want their "right hand to know what their left hand is doing". It is because we see the charlatans on a daily basis that the faith gets a bad name. I am amazed at the times Christ went off by himself only to be followed, or he instructed someone not to tell of their healing. How far we have fallen.

I am so tired of the type of religious person you describe labby, there is so much truth in the Proverbs about keeping one's mouth shut.It is a neat little world to some indeed.

[osakadan]

When exception to the rule for me is the Salvation in Australia. They just get on with the hard work, homeless, alcoholic, battered wives shelters etc. They don't go round to people's doors trying to convert them but in the course of just helping people they do get converts - I guess because of the example they set. They earn my respect.

(Have heard it wasn't always that way though.)

[lablady2]

osaka: I have two cats also. When I need a hug, I find a lab. When I need a laugh, I find a cat.

[forword]

John Stossel did a special on "giving" in America on 20/20. This article may surprise you. On the the show he also made this statement.

The religious give FOUR TIMES MORE than anyone else. Even give more blood, and this is not counting what they give at church. So, the big picture is much more positive. A large part of that "religious" are Christians. What's fascinating about America is that we OUTGIVE the government, so while we may rank lower in giving foreign aid, America stands alone in giving, and most of it is by the religious.

Another myth is that Christians only focus on gays and abortion.
Christians are fighting the fight in Washington regarding Aids and Sex Trafficking. These issues don't spark controversy and condemnation so "politically" won't get the same press.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/HolidayTheme/story?id=2682100&amp;page=1

[osakadan]

Never thought I was a cat person until I moved into a rundown old house with a rat. Decided a cat was the better of the 2 evils. He wormed his way into my heart. I was sick in bed last year for 3 months and he stayed by my side 24/7. Was devastated when he got killed this year.

But now I have 3 kittens who are related, one the spitting image, and personality wise they are almost the same. Unfortunately, they are all sharing the bed with me right now. Gross I know....

I want a dog like you! just don't have enough of a yard.

[matt_hatter]

I saw that report, and was encouraged. John Stossel is a nice change in the media. I think it was also interesting that conservatives were far more generous than liberals. I agree forward, the hot button issues are the ones that get the press, and like I said, the genuine believers don't want you to know what charity work they are doing because they believe as Christ said, those on the street corner proclaiming their piety, "they have their reward in full". It is a wonder the TV church missed this scripture...

[ulyankee]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

But now I have 3 kittens who are related, one the spitting image, and personality wise they are almost the same. Unfortunately, they are all sharing the bed with me right now. Gross I know.... <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Hmm, there must be something wrong with me that I can relate and don't find it gross. But just wait until they get full grown!!!! Actually, our three kitty siblings do all have distinct personalities but they definitely act like "family." Spoiled family.

Forward, thanks for bringing that up. Yesterday I was leafing through David Kuo's (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/160/story_16092_1.html) book in Books a Million (didn't buy it yet though) and he brought up pretty much the same point... though the more political, visible Christian leaders have been capitalizing on exactly those things and stating that they are the most important political issues Christians should be concerned with. But to what end? I don't necessarily agree with the two year fast thing he espouses, but rather simply getting back to the basics of our faith rather than trying to systematically and literally take over the world as if that's part of the Gospel (EN leaders, take note!). We'll certainly win a whole lot more over people that way... which is exactly what the apostles Paul and Peter taught AND practiced, btw.

[lablady2]

osaka said: "I want a dog like you!"

Ah, if I had a dollar for each time I've heard that from a man! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

We have a least on cat hop on the bed at night, sometimes two. Most of the time they get along but not always. Nothing will wake you up faster than a cat fight in the middle of the bed at 2 in the morning. The other night they actually pulled down the screen from our window and threw it across the bed. Makes me a little verklempt - kind of like having my two daughters back in the house. hehehe.

[lablady2]

" We'll certainly win a whole lot more over people that way... which is exactly what the apostles Paul and Peter taught AND practiced, btw."

I agree with you, UL. Just an interesting note. Jews do not seek converts, yet converts make up a growing percent of our Temple, maybe 10%. Approximately 3600 people from many different backgrounds convert each year, and at least 200,000 of American Jewry are converts.

I know that Christians are supposed to make disciples and I can appreciate that, but I do think there are more effective methods than we practiced in MCM. Love, empathy, genuine concern....those are such powerful forces.

[lablady2]

Jews do not seek converts, yet converts make up a growing percent of our Temple, maybe 10%. Approximately 3600 people from many different backgrounds convert each year, and at least 200,000 of American Jewry are converts."

Okay, after rereading my post and before I get flamed, my point is that people will often seek out what they need without a revival, an invitation, an advertisement, etc. I in no way meant to insinuate that Jews are more loving, concerned, etc., and those that know me here would know that.

Mia culpa (throwing my Catholic roots a bone)Sorry if I offended anyone; it wasn't my intention.

[mcmstaff78]

LL, the Orthodox Church is much the same. Often people say "y'all don't evangelize". And we don't do all those things that evangelicals and charismatics do - no revival meetings, no crusades, etc. But converts make up a significant majority (well over 50%) of the membership in America and especially in the south. We believe that as our lives become more and more like Christ, by His Grace, that people will be attracted to Christ through us.

[sameo]

Lab:"I know that Christians are supposed to make disciples and I can appreciate that, but I do think there are more effective methods than we practiced in MCM. Love, empathy, genuine concern....those are such powerful forces."

You make a very good and valid point! you may be Jewish but I completely agree. ;-)

[miltietoast]

anybody have any kitties they do not want? We troll them behind our boat in Canada. Pike love em

[lablady2]

Wow, Miltie, never heard of such a thing...until now.

http://www.gameandfishmag.com/fishing/catfish-fishing/gf_aa086704a/

[matt_hatter]

Labby, there is a plastic bait called "The rat" that you actually jerk across the lilly pads and the largemouth bass snatch it. I tried it, no bass in Alabama seemed to have the appetite for vermin. Prefer plastic worms.

Live mammals for fishing? Sheesh! I'm not some PETA dude by a long shot (I know you are kidding Miltie, but the article about using baby chicks?) but something unethical about that.

Gotta get ready for Sunday School, where I get my best ideas for my blog. Everyone thinks I am a studious baptists and am taking notes about the lesson. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

[lablady2]

matt: I use real worms, but that article is making me rethink that. Geez, that article is making me rethink fishing. Enough to make one kosher. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[matt_hatter]

We have a real problem in our pond with the huge largemouths treating the wild ducklings like top water lures! Pass me a Vlassic pickle.

[lablady2]

Food chain can be a....food chain isn't always pleasant. That's the breaks.

[sameo]

hey labby-i hope you know I was kidding you-above, i think you do?! ;-)

Heyyyy Miltie...nice to see you here. We've missed you. Hope your work is going well.

[lablady2]

sameo: I had to go back and reread. Didn't notice a thing. I enjoy your sense of humor. No worries.

[sameo]

thanks lab! just making sure. (I wasn't 'fishin' for a compliment!) hah!

"fishing"-get it, hatter?!

[lablady2]

sameo: take that lil' kitty off the hook right now!

[sameo]

OK this is the third post to Lablady...first one I had to delete...because I got tangled in the line...i mean, went over the line. ;-) Second time, not sure what happened...and so I shall attempt once again.

I think the second time I said, if it's not "lil' kitty" it'll be some other poor 'chick.' hehe

[lablady2]

sameo: man, you're on a roll with the poetry/word stuff. That was a good one.

I'd feel sorry for the fish that tried to glom on to my little cat. She drags around rabbits twice her size. If we catch her in time, my husband rescues the bunnies and puts them back in the woods. Ticks her off.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi sameo, Too funny!!
"if it's not "lil" kitty" it"ll be some other poor 'chick' "........ well said.}

[miltietoast]

sameo thanks for casting your two cents in
yeah,mattie was kidding about the kittens,although I have caught pike that swallowed the 14 inch fish I was reeling in.I used to raise rabbits and took some newborn rabbits(only fetal material) that froze. Did not catch a thing
back to work for me ,looks like overtime this year mattie,i may end up working 16 weeks instead of 4. How do you guys do it?

[lablady2]

miltie: my cat has just thrown up on my carpet. Two more times and you can take her fishing in Canada.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[miltietoast]

maybe we can use the throwup for catfishing in matties pond

[lablady2]

Too late. I've Resolved my problem and the cat has been banished to the great outdoors for the morning.

[miltietoast]

god help the rabbits

[lablady2]

And the moles. And the squirrels. And the peekapoos.

[lablady2]

Outta here to take my dad to the doc. Don't try no funny stuff at my house. Guard cat in place.
Labs, however, will let you in, show you where the good stuff is and help you make a sandwich. The yellow lab will steal the sandwich if you're not careful. We often find him with Miracle Whip on his whiskers.

[sameo]

good morning all! oh, wait, it's noon! ha thanks lab, and copper...and hey miltie...poor working guy!

HAHA Lab, I envision your house being like that commercial where the animls are having a party while the owners are away... and your cat...says OH, No, here she comes...heehee

(hope Dad's doing ok...)

[speakword2004]

Matt
Thanks for the heads up on the Silver-haired mongoose. Perhaps we could get him to do an outreach at your workplace if you guys can come up with a stadium full of cash?

[flo1151]

I was reeling up about a 8-10 lb grouper when a goliath grouper aka jewfish(no offense labby) swallowed the fish he took off on a slow pull as my tennis shoes squeaked across the deck of the boat for about 15 seconds then broke my line. He ate 2 or 3 more grouper as we tried to bring them up. He was probably 2 feet wide at the shoulders probably around 400 lbs. No one on the boat wanted to tussle with him. They are on the endangered list but there are so many of them now they have become a nuisance at certain wrecks. My friend has an old dog who is about to kick the bucket we thought about using him for jewfish bait he is about the right size. I want my ashes to be spread at this same wreck so what's the difference?

[matt_hatter]

Unfortunately, we would have a number of folks in the office falling over like dominos while Benny swings his blazer at them. I saw a clip of that on Youtube the other day and it made me ill.

[lablady2]

"I was reeling up about a 8-10 lb grouper when a goliath grouper aka jewfish(no offense labby) swallowed the fish he took off on a slow pull as my tennis shoes squeaked across the deck of the boat for about 15 seconds then broke my line."

Annnddddd.....that's what you get for calling him a Jew fish. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif No offense taken.

[flo1151]

LL

What do you mean? The jewfish was a she? I don't know why they used to call them jewfish. They need to have a christian snapper or a muslem shark just to spread the love around.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[lablady2]

Flo, did some quick research. Seems the large grouper may have been named jewish because it is "thick-headed". Say what???? The modern day name is Goliath Grouper. They'll get a kick out of this at Temple. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif