Why do You say that EN is Related to or Similar to Maranatha

[speakword2004]

First off, an apology for a comment I made the other day. I was testing the reactions of people here and I did so in a clearly insensitive and boorish manner.

Let me explain my question above. Most people in EN or His People do not know that EN is/was related to Maranatha in whatever way. Unless they do the research or were in Maranatha they will not understand. Probably the majority of members of EN have not been in the church longer than 3 years. This is a guesstimate based on student population and flux etc.

How can we explain the connections etc. in a way that will help others make up their own minds contra to EN's current apologetic regarding this.
Perhaps if we can show all the links regarding current senior leaders we can make a change to the official line as well as Wikipedia etc. In this way we will be helping EN to come clean one step at a time.
What sayest mine brethren?

[maranatha1984]

Tikie:

Think of your parents. Then think of your grandparents, say on your Mother's side of the family.

The grandparents raised the parents, the parents share the grandparents values to some extent, and whether they realize it or not are products of the values of their grandparents good or bad.

EN is the parent
MCM is the grandparent

It is that simple: they share the twisted and wierd DNA: the good and bad of EN is a reaction to and caused by the DNA in MCM.

THe leadership at the top was birthed and groomed by MCM.

[freedom43]

doesn't ulyankee's timeline show the linkages very clearly? i.e. they have reorganized a ba-zillion times, changed their name, etc., but it is still the same characters. One of these days I'm gonna find that old Forerunner with all of the pictures of those in "full time" ministry in Maranatha and count how many of the top leaders of EN were in there!

[matt_hatter]

How can we explain the connections etc

My thought would be Tik's blog. As his blog is getting to the point where the ribbon is going to be tied on it, it is quite obvious to me that the roots of EN are in MCM. Connecting the dots by reading this comprehensive story cannot help but stop one in his tracks and ponder....

[upcase20]

Case in Point: I know the pastor of the church I left (now EN) was trained in Maranatha. He even helped plant sister churches in DC and MD. Guess who are the pastors of these EN churches,home church leaders and members of the Maranatha church
he trained. It's obvious.

[40days40years]

speak about your little experiment: First off, an apology for a comment I made the other day. I was testing the reactions of people here and I did so in a clearly insensitive and boorish manner.

Come on man you knew you were going to get from me at least a mildly pro American, give George the benefit of the doubt response on 9-11.

What about Dust?, you inflicted pain on her and I hope she comes back.

[40days40years]

I would say the fact that the most hardcore Maranatha guys are now running EN means that this is very much like Maranatha. There are EN churches out there that are more Maranatha then some of the lower key Maranatha churches of the past. Read the stories about leaders getting the congregation to serve them in many ways. Lack of financial transparency, questioning a leader is tantamount to questioning God. The dating revelation/marriage revelation lives on in various forms. Lack of genuine repentance I think the testimony of JIA, Phil B's ex maid servant/hand maiden is some of the biggest proof of all that Maranatha is EN and vica versa.

[lablady2]

speak: just a word about "testing" people's reactions. I'd prefer just to be asked for my opinion about something; I find the direct approach more honest, less provocative and more efficient. I appreciate your apology. We all have our moments.

[mdillon]

freedom=One of these days I'm gonna find that old Forerunner with all of the pictures of those in "full time" ministry in Maranatha and count how many of the top leaders of EN were in there!

freedom, i've got that forerunner

here's my take-

The Timeline
The Testimonies
The Tikie

(sorry, had to keep my 3pt. intact)

that these things would help EN come clean? Speak, I would really hope so, but your faith looms over mine and that's inspiring, because I seriously need help in that category. Not saying that it can't happen, I just see these things helping those wanting to get out, helping them 'see' in order to flee.

dillyeaux

[speakword2004]

40/40 I did not inflict pain on anyone purposely. I just made a rude comment about your president calling him a rude and horrible name. Nevertheless, once again I apologise for my harsh comment regarding George Junior. I made no comment regarding 911 whatsoever and drew no connections in my comment.

Freedom43. I will explain again. Please help/assist/lead/teach the reader (who has no background knowledge of MCM/HP/MSI/CFC etc) understand why MCM is related to EN. It would have been nice if someone could have helped by posting links to Ulyankee's timeline or giving a pertinent summary.


40/40 In your understanding what hardcore MCM guts are running EN? Tik's blog is a lot of reading and not easy to find through Factnet.

Tik's comment about the twisted DNA is an interesting one. Using an EN teaching about spiritual DNA back on this church! Can someone highlight the faulty programming in the DNA or provide a link to a discussion thread on this?

Matt, it is obvious to you, but again to the student member who joined the ministry 2 years ago it may not be. Unless they do thorough research or read a pertinent article or something they will not know or understand. MCM just doesn't come up on the radar screen. It is like trying to show Quakers that they were related to Shakers.

Some people will sift through the piles of stuff and find that out, but my concern for this thread is helping the average vistor etc. The title of the thread is a good index for someone with this kind of question to get a good answer.

[miltietoast]

Rice Brocks,Phil Bonasso,Greg Ball,David Houston, Bruce Harpeel,Mike Godwin,Leo Lawson where all in leadership in Maranatha. You could say that all had visions of their ministries that where bigger than Maranatha with them being the head not ,"the little toe on the left foot"
Just like in business where successful,bankers,realtors salespeople,want more of the pie and go in business for themselves. They take what they learned that works and add their own ideas. So the DNA is there and it morphs a little. Simple analogy is the thought we have all had,"When I grow up I will/won't be like my parents."

[freedom43]

Speakword -- I understand. I did not have the timeline link. That is why I did not post it. But I just did a search. Not sure if it is the latest/correct one:

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/10342.html

Here is the link to the Rick Ross cult articles on Maranatha:

http://www.rickross.com/groups/maranatha.html

Here is a link to Tik's blog:

http://everynationexposed.blogspot.com/

The challenge here, I think, is that we old time Maranatha folks can only talk about our experiences then with these same people. I personally cannot compare it what MSI/EN does today. So, we are left to piece it all together here on line with those who have recently come out. That piecing together has happened all over these boards, but perhaps we can come up with a list together of the things that Maranatha did that are still going on today. I am sure others have some deeper theological stuff but off the top of my head, here are a few examples:

1. Controlling -- in your personal business/decisions all the time, etc.
2. Elitism
3. Finances shrouded in secrecy/closed books.
4. Focussing on/targeting the rich, beautiful, successful people -- athletes, etc.
5. Separating you from friends and family who are not in the group.
6. No way to leave in a healthy way. Shunning those who leave.
7. Authoritarian -- disagreement with leadership not allowed.
8. Information -- control access to information as a means to control people.

Is that more what you are looking for?

[matt_hatter]

Freedom, from what I have gathered from my reading on EN, AND my personal experience with MCM, you 8 points are very solid. These are points that both share, in different generations.
Matt

[ulyankee]

btw, the timeline is here

www.geocities.com/ulyankee (http://www.geocities.com/ulyankee)

Not everyone may agree w/my interpretation of the facts, but besides saying it's 'hostile' (EN on Wikipedia) no one has refuted the basic research that went into it.

[miltietoast]

good job freedom

[robert_unknown]

"How can we explain the connections etc. in a way that will help others make up their own minds contra to EN's current apologetic regarding this. "

the wikipedia entry on MARANATHA CAMPUS MINISTRIES shows a strong connection to EN.
Give this the people to read.

In fact thats the thing I hold most against EN, and against Brooks and Bonasso.

During all the years of the merger, they NEVER told us about their early connections to MCM.

I promise you. If I would have known about it, i would have drawn my church out IMIDEATELY!

Therefore i feel betrayed by them. Its not a "good faith" thing to cover the past, only to reach a target. Thats in my eyes what they did!

[upcase20]

What angers me is that if you look on the EN website there is no mention of Maranatha, none at all. Even at the EN in my area, on the website there is no mention of Maranatha. It's an intentional ommission, and very misleading.

[wisedove]

upcase-
On the same note, my former church just recently left EN (right after or around the time I stopped going) and they, too, have NO mention of EN any longer on THEIR website, nor do any of the other churches that pulled out at the same time...hmmmmm

[upcase20]

They very tactfully eliminated even the word Maranatha from their website. There was a article written that I could not find entitled, "How Maranatha Reinvented Themselves and How They're Getting Away With It".

[ulyankee]

upcase, I recall that "ExCult" who posts over on the Rick Ross boards may have written that article, but I can't find it anymore either. There's other stuff posted over there (http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=687&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start =15) including pertinent posts/testimonies pasted from this forum.

[upcase20]

Thanks Ulyankee, the title alone implies a link of EN to Maranatha. Just a little more evidence.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All
I see a great connection from MCM to En, is that they think the same, they act in similar fashion, and they are the same people with little change.}

[robert_unknown]

The problem are the ideas/ doctrines.
Take me. I grew up in a typical independent and sometimes abusive charismatic church.
I read all Hagin books, all Hinn books, most of the NOLR preachers.

later I visited a WoF boblecollege (at least I realised how proud i became, so i avoided visiting another year).

What do you think i did in my church? i preached and lived the whole stuff.

shandala
spiritual warfare
prophetic ministry
preaching on subjects
...

where did i end?

even despite the fact i realised "something" was wrong in the charismatic world, in a broader sense, i did NOT realise that some of the most basic teachings (on authority, sheperding, discipleship, prophetic guidance...) where wrong... in fact my whole believe system was corupt, and this of course influenced my behaviour.

thank God for the books of Ed Cole and Maxwell and Eldrigte and some other good christian men, i realized that there are other important areas of live.

neverteless i broke. totally.

what do i want to tell you with this?
I believe that Bob Weiners NOLR ideas, that he packed into his "covenavt membership course", into his yellow, purple and whatever books, Weiners cultic NOLR behaviour shaped and molded men like Ball, Brooks, Bonasso and others...

Of course they understood that perhaps Weiner is wrong, but they could not decern all of the wrong doctrines, which they had also embraced.

and thats the connection.

I would not say EN IS equal to MCM! After what i have read about MCM last week, i have hopes for EN! But they really must get rid of many, many false doctrines. they dont teach them, the way Weiners MCM did, but some of the guys live them and preach them.

of course proplems arise. the same problems like in MCM!

Hopefully they manage it to reform EN.

[upcase20]

I can only speak from experience: and I know the same pastor that was running the Maranatha in my area is the same pastor that is running the EN church now. They just went through the name change. He was one of Weiners disciples.. .. I wouldn't waste my time.

[ulyankee]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

i did NOT realise that some of the most basic teachings (on authority, sheperding, discipleship, prophetic guidance...) where wrong...<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I agree totally, Robert. I don't think many in EN realize that either. One of my prayers is that people do realize that, including leaders. The reforms I've seen so far have not gone that deep. Even though Steve Murrell has directly addressed discipleship boundaries and excesses (even referring to MCM by name), it is apparent at least to me from what he has written and said is that he still thinks the basic concept of "discipleship" as defined by New Wine magazine, the Shepherding movement, etc. is a workable idea if one imposes boundaries. Rice Broocks has said something similar about charismatism in general - that if it is kept in the "fireplace" of Scripture it won't go too far and won't burn the house down (presumably like what happened in Maranatha).

So these are lessons learned by MCM... that alone ties it back to MCM...

But were they the right lessons?

I believe that Shepherding-style "discipleship" cannot be contained and that it will ALWAYS go too far at some point. If the root is not addressed AT THE ROOT, it will grow back.

Containment and control don't work imho, and someone can correct me on this if I'm wrong here, but I don't think they are the biblical model for making and keeping a church healthy. I believe that TESTING is, in order to stay yielded to the Holy Spirit while not allowing in "other" spirits or teachings/practices contrary to Scripture. Methods, spiritual things, etc. have to be tested first against the truth of Scripture to determine if they are of God, of the Holy Spirit or not. If they truly are of God, they will do no harm to those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. God can do a good job of containing and controlling Himself without our needing to do it for Him. But if they are not of God, if they don't pass that test, they are to be discarded, no matter how "good" they may seem according to other standards. Do not despise prophecy, but test all things and hold fast to the good, to paraphrase the apostle Paul.

And the methods and beliefs of the Shepherding movement have a long history of doing harm to the sheep and of leading people astray of the true gospel. I would say they've been thoroughly tested and tested again at least over the last 30 years.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Ul and Robert,
You bring up as usual good points.

On the Shepherding movement, Bob Mumford, one of the chief leaders and co-founder of New Wine, repented publicly in Ministries Magazine in 1990. ALthough some feel that it was not complete and that Bob has returned to a form, similar to what Rice Brooks has done.

On why it does not work is that it was conceived on a false foundation of NOLR teachings and doctrines. It grew back as strange every time. They need to control their disciples so the army can march, fight and dominate without questions. And the generals live a cushy life with big salaries and attending awe from their charges. It is not the church that is in the Word, but this is so hard to see when one is trying to save the world.}}

[ginger1]

Even though Steve Murrell have imposed boundaries, this is not known to the regular church members. The word and practice discipleship should be removed from its foundation.

From it, no matter how good intention Steve Murrell has, this "discipleship" will always be misuse and abuse. Looked at his own ministry, they themselves have admitted that it EXIST in his own ministry.
As I spoke to one of them before, they played it down as if , it only exist in a few part of VCF. Recently , after talking to several people from the top members to the bottom the new members, this thing is WIDESPREAD in the Philippine churches. Not just one here or there.

Steve Murrell cannot contain it himself in his own church. What makes him think this would work ?

[pilgrim]

The following websites shows the roots and the history of the false doctrine of spiritual covering "discipleship" and how it has infiltrated the church.
The false doctrine of spiritual covering was very important in Maranatha and the leaders demanded complete obedience.
I believe that Jesus Christ alone is the head of the church and our covering.


www.banner.org.uk/res/shepherding.html (http://www.banner.org.uk/res/shepherding.html)

www.reveal.org/abouticc/crossroadsera.html (http://www.reveal.org/abouticc/crossroadsera.html)

[pilgrim]

Ulyankee you wrote,
I believe that Shepherding-style "discipleship" cannot be contained and that it will ALWAYS go too far at some point. If the root is not addressed AT THE ROOT, it will grow back.

I agree with you Shepherding-style "discipleship" (spiritual covering) is a false doctrine that, like a cancer, has done a lot of damage in the Body of Christ. Spiritual Covering is idolatry because we are Taught to obey Christ through submitting to sheperds/disciplers. We should submit to Christ directly and not through humans called disciplers. This is idolatry and the ex leaders of Maranatha and the leaders of EN need to repent of Idolatry and they need to fully repent for teaching and practising this false doctrine. They also need to repent for making the congregation commit idolatry through having to fully obey their disciplers.

We all need to rememeber that Jesus Christ alone is the head of the church!

[aferrill]

I was in Bob Mumford's church for almost 30 years and the effects on me and my marriage was brutal. Spiritual covering turned into control, which led to abuse. Anyone out there from Covenant Churches?

[lablady2]

Sorry to hear that, aferrill. I'm not familiar with Covenant Churches, but I do believe we used to have Mr. Mumford as a speaker at our meetings on occasion (former Maranatha Ministries person).

Welcome to Factnet.

[sameo]

HI aferrill, I'm not from Covenant Church though I know some people who were and they were also badly affected by it. I'm sorry you had that experience. How are you doing today?(you don't have to answer that)

SameO

[sameo]

Also, my husband and I visited a Covenant church after leaving Maranatha, and we couldn't get out of there fast enough. We definitely felt the control thing.

[jbkrems]

Sameo,

That's interesting. If I'm not mistaken, the church that I left in May 2005, while affiliated with KMI, was ALSO affiliated with the Covenant church movement, from what I recall... yep, there were some pretty serious issues there.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Aferril,
Welcome, I was in a Maranatha group that worked closely with A Covenant group some of my friends who were in one. We used Bob's Mumford, et all teachings. I would talk with you off line, if you like. I know of which you speak, my friends, both men and women have told me a lot.}

[wildwood_]

Hi Aferril and although I was never a member of a Covenant Church, I did fellowship many years ago with a very diverse group of Believers...and some were members of a Covenant Community Church...they had Shepherds.... Seems very closely related to Maranatha as I am coming to understand it...a bit different...but I was clueless then &amp; somewhat clueless now...except that....the Lord would not have had any of these things done in His Name. He wants us to love each other...as He Loves Us...sigh. My prayers for your heart &amp; your family's hearts tonight.

I have sheltered in the shade of the "Coppertree" since I first "stumbled" onto this board. MUCH Wisdom. Pick up the Pearl. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif knot that the rest of ya'll ain't pluntie smert twe...LOL There are wonderful posters here, aferril...hope you have the time to look deeply at some point.

[flo1151]

aferrel,

Welcome. I think you will find a like spirit here. Most of what happened bad in Maranatha can be traced to shepherding and its fruit. I have been out of that lifestyle for a while(almost13 years) the first few are the most difficult but you can make it with God's help. It will take a while for your gonads to grow back but after they do watch out.

[matt_hatter]

but after they do watch out.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[aferrill]

Oh yea, I know what you mean. Before I left I confronted the pastor many times and he didn't like it one bit. I refuse to shut up and I refuse to let him get away with his lies. That's why I started a site on Delphi, Shepherding/abusive churches/covenant churches.
It's my way of telling them off! I had no power then, but I am regaining it now.

[maranatha1984]

Flo:Welcome. I think you will find a like spirit here. Most of what happened bad in Maranatha can be traced to shepherding and its fruit.

Tikie: more than anything this is the key- the shepherding approach- but WHY? Because the "church" was dysfunctional people going and coming- sometimes listening to the pastor sometimes not. But one simply has to read the Epistles- esp Corinthians to see that the early Church was just like this- Paul writes a letter to Christians IN A CHURCH telling them to STOP practicing homosexuality- which means that some IN THE CHURCH were doing this.

But where was his WRATH directed...well not at the Corinthians (IMHO Pauls attitude toward Corinth was that of a FAther towards an undisplined child)...but at the GALATIANS who were preaching a FALSE gospel...

My point is that the CHurch is made of people- and people are FLAWED and sinful- so until we SEE Him in HIS FULNESS this will continue and any attempt to make the church perfect will be destructive and create FAR WORSE problems!

[flo1151]

tik,

the go and make disciples commission was the message. The method of doing that was shepherding. That is where things really screwed up and EN may not call it shepherding these days but I have heard enough to know I hear the remnants of shepherding still being used. Shepherding causes a person to lose the priesthood of the believer and puts themselves in a vulnerable position to allow themselves to be manipulated and controlled. If the church is made up of flawed people, and it is, why would you want someone who is just as flawed as you running your life? I want even go to the people who are more flawed than you. Then the false gospel of works begins because you are not in relationship with God you are a slave to your new master. You can only have one master. He does not treat you like a slave or really inferior(although you are).

tik,

your journals have been a reliving of a time in my life that I would rather put behind me and have for the most part. I respond to people here because I have remorse for my part in the past and I am not ashamed try to heal any wounds that I have caused. I have told you in the past that I think the journals are an acuurate representation of life in maranatha in the 80's. All the high ups in leadership were exposed to this very lifestyle back then and barring some miracle will still bear the scars of its abuse. So keeping in mind that abused people abuse it is easy to see how this all came about.

flo

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> H Aferrill,

I glad that you got to confront your pastors. I know that is a hard thing to do. They, the pastors, and some even here on these threads have been know not to let go: they get have so much pride and sometimes fear. They are used to being in charge, it is a hard thing for them to let go, and walk into a new way, so to speak. Even here on these pages it happens, but each should be a priest and king of their heart, their garden, their soul.



Some will never see, some see partly even now; hopeful in time all will see. You did a good thing to talk with them, but it is up to them and how humble they can be. We can pray for them}

They, the pastor may challenge you, saying you should have know... or that the elect will saved, and that you may not be the elect, etc. There is a bit of seduction that they use to get you in,; the seduction thru love-bombing, or pretending to care for you, the destiny card gets played sometimes too.

You did the right thing, hopefully they will have eyes to see and ears to hear.