So where are they now

[straussguy]

I'm new to this board. I was in the Cookeville, TN, MCM from 1978 until 1981. I've read TikTok's blog (http://everynationexposed.blogspot.com)http://everynationexposed.blogspot.com,
which has filled me in on a lot of developments after I left. But, I'm curious about what happened to a lot of the folks who were part of MCM or were associated with it (as speakers, etc.). In particular, I'm curious about

* Bob Weiner
* Joe Smith
* Bob Summers
* Clay McClean (whose obnoxious "word from the Lord" during my first visit played a huge part in my dropping career plans I had as a senior in high school and led to years and years of depression and frustration)
* Winkey Pratney
* Don Basham
* Ern Baxter

the StraussGuy

[mcmstaff78]

Hey Straussguy,

I was on staff at M'boro the fall of '78. We came to Cookeville a couple times during that period. Sorry to hear about your experience.

If you check out the Leaders sub-folder you'll find some threads devoted to these guys. In short, Bob and Joe are still in ministry, though seperately. I think Joe has a church but Bob is an itinerate. Bob Summers I'm not aware of, don't think anyone's mentioned his name, nor Clay McClean (hadn't even heard that name in years, think I've got a tape by him somewhere). Winkie Pratney's still "ministering" - you can find him at http://www.winkiepratney.com/ and http://www.moh.org/, among other sites. He seems pretty ubiquitous. He's big (or at least was a few years ago) in the Open Theology camp. Pretty sure the Don Basham has died, and Ern Baxter I know died in 1993.

[matt_hatter]

StraussGuy, welcome, and sorry for your years of depression. Hope all is well now, I experienced some of the pain you described too.

http://www.youthnow.org/home.php?p=ministries

Description in detail that Weiner has not changed, the exaggerated numbers make him look foolish and embarrassing.

http://churches.net/sermons-php/audio-sermons.php/?%20year=2003

LOTS 5 BAD DECISIONS
06-13-2003
Pastor Joe Smith
Study how Lot changed his life by his bad decision making

(Scroll about 3/4 of the way down)

If you can stand listening to this, you will hear Joe Smith as recent as 2003, giving those same kinds of personal prophecies (extremely dangerous stuff, in my opinion) and teaching that we all heard in 1978. Notice the smattering of applause...sounds like about 40-50 people...sounds like Papa Joe is stuck in a time warp.

I have chosen to write this "personal prophecy" thing off as the work of manipulative people, not the work of the Lord. If you want to be a "personal prophet", you better damn sure be 100%, because if you miss it once, you ain't a prophet!

Joe prophesied to a young man in Auburn about a healing of a relationship between him and his father. Unfortunately, his father was DEAD. A prophet should have known that. Many in the congregation did, and the "foot shuffling" was very apparent. He should have been called out then, but the structure of the ministry didn't allow it, we were all scared young kids.

[lisa_harrison]

STRAUSS GUY, HELLO AND I WAS IN THE ALMOST EXACT SAME TIME FRAME YOU WERE IN AT STARKVILLE, MS. I DON'T CARE WHERE ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE EXCEPT CLAY. I'M SORRY TO HEAR HE TOLD YOU SOMETHING THAT MADE YOU UNHAPPY. HE TOLD ME SOMETHING THAT I KNOW WAS TRUE AND I HAD BEEN FASTING FOR THREE DAYS. FROM WHAT I KNEW OF HIM, HE WAS DECENT. WHAT DID HE TELL YOU? HE WAS VERY GENTLE WITH ME AND I TOLD HIM TO GET AWAY FROM MARANATHA IN 1981 AND HE LISTENED TO ME AND STEVE MURRELL CALLED ME TO DISCUSS IT AND TRY TO CHANGE MY MIND AND WHY HAD I SLANDERED MCM? I BRAVELY STOOD MY GROUND AND STEVE LEFT MY HOME IN A HUFF AND I'M SURE THINKING I WAS COMDEMNED TO HELL. MY MOTHER WAS A WITNESS AND WAS VERY PROUD OF ME FOR DEFENDING MYSELF. IT FELT GREAT.

[matt_hatter]

God moved Bob and Rose to found Maranatha Churches and Campus Ministries, now with locations on 150 campuses in 20 nations.
Youth Now web site

How can they tell this lie--NOW with locations...The Maranatha House in Auburn AL is a freakin' asphalt parking lot owned by the University! "Holy Crap", said Frank Barone!

Oh, I got the answer, all you have to do is look in those eyes...it tells it all.

[flo1151]

strauss guy,

Anyway you work for levi. My best friend retired from there 3 years ago.

Bob Summers is still pastoring in Dallas and Clay Mclean is in North Carolina still ministering.

flo

[straussguy]

Flo--not sure what you mean by "work for levi."

Lisa--Perhaps Clay is a nice, sweet fellow. I'm not angry with him. I have come to regard much of the so-called prophecy at Maranatha as misleading at best and destructive at worst. At any rate, Clay's "prophecy" most emphatically has not come to pass.

I'm not a cessationist, but I'm not a charismatic either. (My theology is reformed and catholic [in the broad sense], and I belong to a Presbyterian church [PCA].) Nevertheless, it seems to me that much at Maranatha that fell under the rubric of "prophecy" was anything but. According to the biblical pattern, true prophets tended to be marginal figures with Judaean and Israelite society, and their vocation characteristically was to call people to repentance and to deliver words of hope to an often beleaguered (that is, persecuted or marginalized) group of the faithful. Needless to say, I saw very little--correction: none--of that at MCM. The prophets I did see were more reminiscent of Hananiah in Jeremiah 28.

the StraussGuy

[flo1151]

levi-strauss, the jeans people.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Strauss Guy,
Welcome, I hope that you find healing here, I have. Clay was discussed on this board, some sent a link showing his singing ministry. I thought ,it was in La, but could well be Nc. I was told by someone who knows him, that he repented and has out reached to some still in. i hope this helps.}

[lisa_harrison]

strauss guy, I in no way intended to say that you should not be angry at Clay or that you should think he was a nice guy. We just had different experiences with him. Prophecy is very questionable but mine just happened to be right on. Hope you're having a good day; nice talking with you. Lisa

[maranatha1984]

Tikie: Hi Strauss and welcome to the board

Clay publicly denounced MCM and Bob Weiner because of all the shepherding garbage- but as You has pointed out Prophecy is very scary and dangerous and should be undertaken only by those who know that they know that they are His prophets. The OT was very practical in this regards- and false prophets were to be stoned...not that I am condoining that just pointing out that even favorites of mine like Clay McClean (a gentle soul) got caught up in the exhibitionn gifts (IMHO) as did I.

I am not sure about Winkey- where he is and what happened to him

[matt_hatter]

We just had different experiences with him.

Lisa, you make a good point, my experience with Clay was similar to yours, he was a wonderful guy, and even more genuine when he came to Ann Arbor after M&amp;M pulled out of MCM.

But the fact remains that the personal prophesy thing is a dangerous manifestation of the charismatic movement. Looking at a camera and saying, "There is someone out there who has end stage renal disease...God is healing you right now!" may result in someone chunking their dialysis and dying.

I like how you described the Biblical prophets, Straussguy.

I think 78 has said on one of a number of the discourses with Krems, show us the evidence of these words of knowledges, subsequent healings, etc. Medical proof doesn't exist.

I saw some guy kicking the crutches out from under an old lady the other day on TV and told her to run. She hobbled, obviously in great pain and said, "I'm healed!" Still looked like she had a major orthopedic problem to me. Guess I am just a doubting Thomas!

Matt

[lisa_harrison]

straussguy, what is a cessationist? I was born Catholic with all the sacraments, catholic school,Irish grandmother 5 bros. and sisters etc. For a while I searched for other means to God. I knew he existed, but I wasn't sure what his name was anymore. I went on a fast for 3 days and went to a Maranatha meeting where Clay was singing. He said something that noone knew because it was my first time there and I knew no one. He said that when I thought Jesus appeared by my bed that it was true. The words were not directed at me. He just spoke it out. God spoke to me to let me know He was with me. I was not going to eat until I found the true God. I had quite an experience where the Holy Spirit came in the form of a great light and rested in the middle of my forehead and rivers of living water came up in my belly(very physical)and I spoke in baby tongues. My life was changed from that moment on. It just happened to be at a Maranatha meeting. I was too well taught in the beatitudes and that Jesus was a servant to fall hard for Maranatha. I was never a leader and did very little damage to hurt others though I did a little. Thank God, I had my church background to form my conscience. These people who are so cruel to people sure have hard hearts and I never knew a Jesus like that. You say you're not charismatic. I don't go to meetings, but I still pray in tongues and have the gifts that He wants me to use when He says so.Spiritual pride is a danger in some places.

[lisa_harrison]

Matt and maranatha, I agree with you. If someone tried to give me a word today, I would probably not believe them unless I knew them very well and their character, but for the most part there is so much danger with exhibiting the power gifts. I had to quit going to Charismatic stuff at least 10 years ago. Sometimes I may go to a women's Aglow meeting, but they have strict guidelines on prophetic words etc. You can't throw the baby out with the bath water though. It's just those people we see on T.V. are usually performing for the camera. I've seen the same stuff at Catholic Charismatic meetings(pushing you down to fall in the spirit) but I will never let go of the magnificent way that the Holy Spirit came to me that night in 1978 when I had given up and said I wouldn't eat until I found the "real God" I truly know that I have found Him and He is Jesus Christ. Sometimes, I get a little angry about being in this world and I get bored because I am disabled. But I have seen the fruits of living according to His laws and putting Him first and then His people. I met my husband at a Catholic Church and I had been given a vision of my husband and his name 2 years before I met him. I have proof written in a book with the date. I was given the vision right after my daddy committed suicide and was told that I would be given another man to take the place of my father. He is a very good man and father and would have never fallen for Maranatha. Too hard-headed. Life is not perfect, but when I hear the troubles of neighbors and friends I have to be thankful. I guess this post is good for me because I am being prodded to tell of my experiences and am realizing how I should be thankful.

[jesusisawesome]

Hi Straussguy, welcome to the board. I'm sorry for what you have experienced with dropping your career plans and the ensuing depression and frustration. I can relate. I pursued "full time" with this ministry, and dropped finishing my degree. Looking back, hindsight is 20-20 . . . however, one thing I am thankful, God can take all circumstances and work them towards our good. He can weave something beautiful from the negative, as much as we allow Him to.

Lisa: You can't throw the baby out with the bath water though.

JIA: I totally agree there. It is too bad there is so much out there to sift through. I still believe in the prophetic because the bible teaches it . . . and I have have key prophetic words during some very dark days (post-Maranatha/VCF/Morningstar) that sustained me as I walked through the false accusation of Jezebel and being blackballed from this ministry. A TRUE prophetic word can bring so much life and healing! Unfortunately, there is so much of the negative out there, that the temptation is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I guess it is important that we love God with both our mind and our heart, and we do need to have discernment . . .

Regardless, we have a sure foundation that we can rest upon in Jesus Christ, and though we may stumble, He is the steady rock that will never leave us or forsake us, and will guide us into all truth, as we seek to love Him with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength.

[matt_hatter]

Thank you for sharing Lisa, it does me good to hear the love you have for Christ, despite the very difficult things you have faced in your life.

Phillip Yancey writes of Anne Lamott (probably not an author with a great following in fundie-land) who writes openly about her alcoholism, says she has two favorite prayers "Thank you, thank you, thank you" and "Help me, help me, help me."

I will have to agree with her on that. Very simple, very basic.

[lisa_harrison]

JIA, yes, the Spirit can still use others to encourage us as It is doing now. I believe thank God almighty I believe!!!!!! Corny,huh but it felt good to say.

[jesusisawesome]

The simple truth Lisa, which is always powerful, even if it may appear "corny". I'm glad God uses "foolish things", that's one qualification that I think I meet . . . http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[straussguy]

Lisa, cessationism is the doctrine that the gifts that Paul discusses in I Cor. 12 and 14 "ceased" at the end of the so-called "apostolic era" (that is, the first century).

I'm not bitter or angry towards Clay McClean.

flo--Actually the "Strauss" in "StraussGuy" is the German composer Richard Strauss (1864-1949).

the StraussGuy

[matt_hatter]

Richard wore levis? I'm confused. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[wildwood_]

Greetings Straussguy! Please consider me a UK Lexington Cousin who although not quite related by MCM shared some mutual relatives and very similar wounds in the late '70's; some inflected by others who cloaked their words in the name of Lord (Hard to win even a Scriptural "discourse" with someone claiming to have the Author available for "Clarifications"); and sadly some probably MOST inflicted by myself as I tried to fulfill God's Plan for "Me" that I simply did not know, if I thought I knew it I messed it up and apparently everyone else I hung out with had telegrams from Heaven..or said they did (LOL). Naturally, I did spend a few years wondering through depression &amp; wilderness &amp; doubts &amp; the driest deserts &amp; some other icky spots....mostly feeling angry that the Lord let me get hurt and then...How? How? How had the Lord managed to lose my address but knew how to find my twin sister for her telegram...LOL. I'm now of the opinion that perhaps He did not lose my address and that inexplicable though it is...thirty years later... He has been Faithful in All Things...including some of those special moments that I treasured from so long ago.

Your posting today was an unexpected, bit of Serendipity or Coincidence or perhaps something more...or perhaps just another reminder for me that Our God He is Alive. The Real Jesus. I will explain and leave it for you and Flo1151 to decide.

For the last several days, one specific short story has been on my heart to share with Flo1151 about Clay McClean. I'd asked "Hatter" if he'd ask "Flo" if he could pass along his address so I could email him. Flo….looks like this was the email I was planning….but that doesn’t mean I’m not going to send a different one…..eventually….

I wanted Flo to let Clay McClean know that 30 years ago...he gave a word of knowledge or prophecy to a young skeptical girl in Kentucky who was not supposed to be in the audience. I still remember the clothes I was wearing (white shirt, light blue short sleeve button sweater top, gray blue slacks) I was in the middle of the crowd, third row in the middle and Clay was at the piano. I'd been invited by Butch Lawson but told him “no”. Later, I don’t know why, I did something unusual; I went alone to a meeting (I hate that). I’d never heard of Clay. I don't know who sponsored the event, if you’d asked me up until reading this message board, I’d have assumed it was InterV or Navigators. I knew some of the faces from the “Community” and the girl who received a word ahead of me had the radiant smile of Jesus with long blond hair. I still see her serious joy from Clay's words. No one was surprised when he called her out. But, the audience seemed surprised or maybe it was my own surprise… when Clay called me out next. Clay started speaking directly to me as from the Lord... I stood motionless giving him no response until the end to indicate one way or the other (my family calls this my Freeze Face, a skill honed by my Mom’s ability to spot a blink of guilt at 100 feet). When he was done speaking, I acted appropriately impressed and sat back down and did my shaking &amp; pondering privately in my Heart. I've been pondering what I've remembered for the last 30 years.

(Part1 of 3 sorry I tried to be brief)

[wildwood_]

(continued part 2 of 3)

Clay knew about a heated argument that I'd just had with my family, that I'd literally bit my tongue to keep from speaking... it is the only time in my life that I've ever ever tried that…it doesn’t work…eventually it hurts and your teeth let go and that tongue speaks…sigh. But does take ones mind off the screaming of a rather hysterical Mother who thinks her daughter has lost her mind. (Something about “believing in speaking in tongues”). I'd just gotten back onto Campus and had not told my friends because…they thought my folks were (threatening to keep me from returning to UK did not fall into the “nice” image I had in mind at the time…pretty cool now ). Clay said that the Lord was going to work all that out with my parents, family, including my brother (at the time using his own words “a crazed agnostic Viet Nam Vet”...now sings in a Choir happily so), and my home Church ….BUT NOT in any way that I would possibly expect. That things would never be what I expect exactly. But it would get done. And so it did….only much more than I expected…exceedingly abundantly more….At my parent’s home Church of Christ, in their particular Adult Bible Study Class with the “old folks” 55+ including my wonderful Aunt “Ruth”….starting an intensive study in Greek &amp; Hebrew on the Holy Spirit (to help straighten the kid out) and about a year later the whole class coming to the conclusion that there was no Scripture basis to preclude the operation of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit in today's world...as HUGELY UNEXPECTED…they decided not to limit God and that while perhaps they did not worship the Lord in that manner, that as near as they could tell…Folks who did…as long as they followed Jesus …Amen.

Clay also had an additional word on specific misunderstandings about "me"...false characterizations of my walk and false statements about my Faith &amp; Witness...harmful words that were said to be from the Lord. Clay knew in fact more detail than even I knew at the time because I really didn't know some of the things that were apparently thought …because the words that had been said were damaging enough. Especially in the few hours that I believed they might have actually been the “REAL” words of the Lord…before I took those words to the Lord in prayer and was guided (yes I said “guided” or “given” it’s one of my very few absolutely no question but it was Jesus moments so I remember it well) to James 3:17 and the “Wisdom of the Lord”. Clay knew none of these things…only the Lord &amp; I did….there wasn’t any point in telling the people who’d hurt me about God’s wisdom…they’d said they were speaking for “God”. Clay said the Lord did not tell those people to say those things that I was right that it was not His Wisdom. That He would vindicate (although I'm not sure if that's the word used) in time and then he talked about a few other things that made no sense to me but that it would be made whole again. And within two years, I’d received unexpected, requests for forgiveness from two of the three individuals involved…out of the blue…different times…one apologized for the things I didn’t exactly know about…still don’t (thankfully). Mainly...Clay left me with the feeling that….My Words to the Lord had been heard and the Lord was come for my words...sort of a verse in Daniel that's always been special to me since my childhood. Again...I was the unexpected guest in the room. But I was not unexpected to the Lord…..

(continued...)

[wildwood_]

(conclusion part 3 of 3 finally…I know…I’m done, really)

I am saddened that such a blessing of encouragement has been so misused so often by so many people…including myself in my younger days… “Oh, the Lord told me to call”. The intent of the heart is good and truly maybe the Holy Spirit’s prompting; but the Words of Knowledge and Prophecy…these are something else entirely…And I have tried to rationalize Clay’s accuracy away…and somehow get it to be the remarkable timely word of a Man perhaps used by God….hmmm, but it’s easier to believe it was just the Holy Spirit than all the hoops that he’d had to jump through to get all that right… So..I’ve never been able to talk the “God” out of this Word for me…and I’ve decided to stop trying and be thankful again and again. I do believe the Lord Speaks quietly to us one by one…primarily through His Word, Prayer, His In-dwelling Presence…but if I could explain it all…Well, I’d be in Heaven with Him right now and not typing on this board… Some things should be kept to our own counsel….not shouted…too precious…

But Flo, if you do happen to see this post…and if you ever happen to see Clay McClean again…please tell him that whatever had happened in all these years that on at least one night thirty years or so ago... He must have been listening to the Holy Spirit and that in doing so he blessed me with a word of encouragement and hope that for many years was the one thing that I could not quite find a way to "talk myself" out of KNOWING ACTUALLY HAPPENED...without smoke...without mirrors... Just the Lord reaching down and giving me a Hug right when I needed it most...and I wasn't expecting it or looking for it. I do not understand how. But I know that tares were sown among the Wheat that the Holy Spirit and the Love of Christ brought to UK... and although it may look like the tares overwhelmed the field...maybe, after all these years the tares are being seen and the Wheat is being harvested and perhaps….having been ground ? grinded ? fine enough (some days I feel ground ?grinded? very fine indeed...hey it's way past my bedtime...I'm not trying to be correct anymore) will make up two or three loaves and feed a crowd of thousands….(I’ll leave the fishing to the resident experts and the “Niece”)


Special Thank you Straussguy for the opportunity to post my little story above. I in no way discount what happened to you...I know..I do know... I'm just praying for you right now that your Joy may be Full. NOW. If that's ok with you... I do not mean it offensively at all.... I was blessed to have only been brushed by Maranatha and only mild scars from the fellowship I was in compared to the deeper cuts I've sadly learned of on this board. But, I've come a bit full circle to believe like a child again, Jesus Loves Us...and that's all I know for sure about anything anymore. Keep reading here and you will probably find more than you were seeking….I know I did… And now….I must sleep… Nite. Once again the tolerance of all has been much appreciated.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[mcmstaff78]

I'm just going to point out that while everyone recognizes that the "words" that don't pan out were "not of God", just because a "word" does pan out, or that someone reveals something in a "word" that no one else could have known, doesn't necessarily mean it is from God. I believe many of these people opperate in familiar spirits. Remember, all that glitters is not gold. That's all I'm going to say about it.

(Message edited by mcmstaff78 on December 07, 2006)

[osakadan]

I used to give an introductory psych course. The beginning lesson was students drawing pictures and me then interpreting the pictures. 95% of the time I was able to be spot on about relationships with peers, parents, opposite sex etc, along with fears etc.

It was my understanding of 17 year olds and nothing else. How many "words"are based on this kind of thing?

[dust]

Wildwood,
Thank you for your story and the courage to shine His light, this light of a God that we cannot make rational, this God that we cannot limit or "figure out."

This Encouragement which you received that night, which has been a healing balm to you even now 30 years later, and which has brought healing to readers here, well that lines up with God who is a COMMUNICATOR...who's words bring life.

This time of year reminds me of a Word received long ago, that surely lines up with the encouragement you received.

Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

[lablady2]

A lot fewer "words" would be given if the person giving the prophecy had to be held accountable for the outcome in the person's life. I wonder if the chump who gave the "word" about closing the Paducah fellowship and requiring everybody to move would have done so if he had to pay for our son's $22,000.00 medical bill and make up the loss of income we suffered over a three year period?

It's hard for me to even imagine the sort of arrogance and presumption it must take to speak to someone and claim you are speaking the very word of God to them. I learned my lesson. Anyone who wants to give me a word can put it in writing with a clause specifying payment of damages in case of failure. Then we'll sign it and date it in front of a notary and file a copy in my attorney's office. That approach would take care of about 99.9% of the problem.

[osakadan]

Even as only a fairly new christians (1 year), we were encouraged/pushed to give words. Think I was only ever stupid enough to do it once, and made it so non-descript it could apply to more than 50% of members.

It was almost as if you didn't give a word you weren't stepping out in faith. Had completely forgotten that bad memory.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

osakadan: It was almost as if you didn't give a word you weren't stepping out in faith. Had completely forgotten that bad memory.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Reading this brought an immediate flash of memory of standing in the Maranatha chapel in Athens during a "worship service" and feeling this immense pressure to speak out, i.e. to "prophecy". The whole "you've got to step out in faith" thing was like a huge weight on my chest. I did it and looking back I wonder how much people were singled out for "leadership" on the basis on them "stepping out" like this. Of course, after the first time it gets easier (they say the same thing about murder (yeah, there's a connection)). I think after "giving a word" in a service in Lexington that I was couldn't have been more convinced was of God and then being berated after the service by Bob Martin that I had "missed it" I started thinking this was just a game we were playing and that it appeared, at least there in Lexington, to be more important to agree with Bob in your "words" then believe you were "hearing" from God.

To me, the use of "prophetic words" to either direct a church or individuals is a big warning sign of spiritual manipulation and abuse.

[osakadan]

I had completely forgotten how people were pushed/encouraged to "step out in faith". Interesting how it made it all the way to Australia too.

What did I know after one year? And that is my interpretation because I never felt it was coming from God at all. How long had you been a christian at that stage '78?

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

osakadan: How long had you been a christian at that stage '78?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Well, I grew up in the UM Church. I made a commitment to Christ in February of '73, but really didn't "live it out" until '76 or early '77. At that point I read, of all things, Larry Tomczak's book which pushed me into things "charismatic". Wound up at a Catholic Charismatic prayer meeting and heard people "speaking in tongues" for the first time. Started attending Church of God services, Assemblies of God, charismatic bible studies, etc., etc. I was part of a campus bible study sponsored by a local Assembly of God church when Maranatha came on campus. A couple of YWAMers who had been attending started going to Maranatha as well as a girl I had dated (I think it happened in that order) and then I started going, Dec. '77. So, I had been "saved" for almost 5 years, but only serious about the faith for a little more than a year, and as spiritually discerning as a brick wall. I was hungry for something "real" and "powerful" and was intensely idealistic (but with a facade of cynicism - I think most cynics are closet idealists) - IOW, ripe for the Maranatha picking.

[osakadan]

I think most cynics are closet idealists

Have to agree with you there.

Thinking back, don't think I ever really spoke in tongues as such. Think it was just an expectation and at some point I wanted it so much I just copied and gibbered on.

[straussguy]

My reaction to Clay's "word" for me was conditioned by a number of factors. First, I was impressed that he recognized that God had given me "great scientific and technical knowledge"--which was true. He went on to say that God would use my gifts to bring people into His kingdom.

Unfortunately, this word came at a time when I was considering undertaking study in the fine arts (in which I also had considerable gifts), while my parents had been pressuring me to go into the sciences. (My home life at that time was extremely contentious, not least because I didn't want to go into the sciences.) Thinking that the word was really from the Lord, I dropped my plans immediately, and I spent the next few years studying physics and then math and engineering. I was absolutely miserable. While I left "The Big M" (as a friend of mine called it) at the end of my junior year in college, I continued in math, and, upon graduation, went directly to grad school where I earned a master's in engineering (barely, though, because I'd lost my motivation). I then worked as an engineer for four years, and I was absolutely miserable--depressed, nervous and the like. Finally, I decided to return to school and to earn a Ph.D. in the humanities (which I did).

But perhaps Clay's word from the Lord will still pan out. I'm currently involved in a Presbyterian church that's focussed on ministering to a local Ivy League university. I've learned a lot of theology and philosophy over the years, and I have developed a good sense about how to discuss the faith with academics. So perhaps God will still use my gifts the way that Clay said they would. I just haven't seen it happen in the 28-1/2 years since that fateful evening, and since I don't have a full-time academic appointment now, I'm not sure how such a thing would come to pass. (Of course, God knows!)

the StraussGuy

[john_r_jones]

straussguy, I'm glad you waltzed in to our presence with yours. Having been friends with Clay many moons ago I can understand the presence he had in the big "M" as a prophet.

One of the things I've learned through difficult experience as well is to listen to that small inner voice which we as "Mature Christians" extinguish over time because of experiences such as you've had possibly of self doubt. That doubt of course is fueled in the atmosphere of ministries that focus on people as utile in function instead of creative.

I've asked in Sunday school class many times who the rulers were during the time of Michelangelo, DaVinci, or Shakespeare most don't know. The DeMedici family were in fact benefactors of Michelangelo and subsidized the arts and the renaissance as a consequence. Religiosity through the ages has quashed creative thought excommunicated great thinkers like Copernicus and marginalized folks like you who are both gifted and open and apparently humble as well. Our "Jesus-is-coming-and-boy-is-he-<font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font>" eschatology has erred on the side of expedience and not thoughtfulness.

I've gotten a few screwy words from prophets or a pastor that didn't really give a damn about me other than to milk me dry and discard me. It seems the gospels relate these are the sorts of people Jesus relished as friends the outcasts and undesirables. He touched the lepers to heal them something no Rabbi in His day would do. He allowed his sermon to be interrupted while the roof was torn open to lower a lame friend to him for ministry-imagine that in a modern church today. However God uses you strauss it will resonate with your innards. Though sometimes God uses us in ways that may not always be readily apparent or understandable I think it does bring life to us.

John

[jesusisawesome]

In my way of thinking, the "false" does not automatically negate the "true". There are familiar spirits, but there is also the true working of the Holy Spirit.

All that glitters is not gold, yet at the same time there is the glitter that is the true and genuine gold. There may be a whole lot more fools gold lying around, but that doesn't negate the existence of the true gold or how precious and valuable it is. Like apples of gold in settings of silver is a word aptly spoken (Prove 25:11). A true prophetic word is powerful, and can sometimes produce more life in a person than a thousand sermons. It can be like a pin point laser beam, getting to the root of an issue immediately.

God cares about each of us very individually, and He's not just an abstract figure out there, but someone that will come along side the wounded and hurting to speak life and encouragement . . . And He uses many different methods and means to speak, that is evident throughout all of the bible.

God can speak through a donkey if He so chooses . . . and on many occasions He speaks through human donkeys, which is something I have been many a time. I screw up big time, but I'm thankful His grace is bigger than my screwups and the times that I have really become a human "a$$".

Dust spoke well about "this light of a God that we cannot make rational, this God that we cannot limit or figure out". Just when we think we have God all figured out, He breaks our nice neat little molds. Who has understood God's thoughts?

What Wildy shared "lines up with a God who is a communicator, who's words bring life." The fruit in her life was very good and restorative, and drew her closer to God. The fruit of what something produces is so important. We're to test everything, and hold fast to that which is good. Does it draw you closer to Christ and bring life and healing? Is the fruit good, and does it line up with the scriptures, and the heart and character of God? If it draws you away from God or negates the scriptures, toss it out . . . But don't toss out the precious gems in the midst of all the rubbish.

[mcmstaff78]

JIA, God often does speak through donkeys (the human kind). However, forgive me my cynicism if I doubt that any "word" ever uttered in Pentecostal/Charismatic, et al circles that began "Thus saith the Lord", "God told me to tell you..." or something of the like was anything more than than the promptings of the persons own inner psuche. I hear God in the words of my children, in the homilies of my priest, in the news and in conversation with friends. I hear Him in worship and in prayer, in the singing of Psalms. I don't need to seek out the "supernatural" of God because I see Him being "super" in the natural all around me and the seeking of the "supernatural", the "sign", the "word", is, IMO, asking to be led into deception. Jesus said "A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;..." We are not to be led by "words", by "dreams", by "visions". I am not a cessationist. I just don't believe the spirit behind Pentecostalism/Charismaticism is the Holy Spirit.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All
Catching up , very nice to see and hear Dust and Wildy. Thank you and JIA also for your encouragement. I think we had a discussion not that long ago about 'words' on these threads. To each his own, although I did give and get a lot of 'words' then in this group. I saw much validity in them.}

[matt_hatter]

Nice thoughts on this thread, all. Like Uly said (somewhere) factnet has expanded her horizions on this large body of believers. We can have disagreements and still have fellowship!

I wonder if removing the "thus says the Lord" from all of these "prophecies" would be more like we are supposed to talk. I know for a fact that I have helped folks sort through things without ever saying "the Lord is saying this to you". Like LL, I am very suspect of anyone who is claiming the voice of God by stating it that way.

My encouragement comes from the Lord through people now, and they don't have to tell me that it is a "word form the Lord".

Just my thoughts.

[wildwood_]

Hugs to All. Hmm, Clay’s words to me were probably in the Spring or possibly Fall of ’76…the beginning of the end of innocence maybe for me… So many things were very very very wrong with what I encountered about the Holy Spirit at UK in the ‘70’s…sigh…things that were not of God, or of the Bible but of man trying perhaps to be like God…or false teachings…perhaps even false spirits preying upon those who desperately sought more… Flo mentioned in a post somewhere and when I have the opportunity, I hope to contemplate further on the thought: partaking of two different trees…the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge of Good &amp; Evil. I have no answers to anything but this and it is the same answer that by the Mercy &amp; Grace of God that I was born and raised knowing:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. That we should love one another as Jesus loved us… And Climb, Climb, Sunshine Mountain…Heavenly breezes blow…Turn, Turn from sin and evil faces all aglow…

Simple, true uncomplicated faith … the type that speaks where the Bible speaks and is silent where the Bible is silent…. My answers are mine alone…they will not look the same to someone else… but Jesus is the Same, Yesterday, Today and Forever…now How He does that…I don’t know. I’m just glad He does !

Suffice to say much of my initial conflict with some of new more Assembly of God friends revolved around doctrines of a variety of baptismal issues &amp; the Holy Spirit …seems there was another girl (a sweetheart who became a Sister of my Soul that I still miss and whose gentle heart for the Lord was crushed into steel…. I believe by the harshness related to Maranatha…) on campus who’d also been a thorn in one particular fella’s side about water baptisms for the previous two years in some Kentucky High School Government Conferences (who knew…LOL…no wonder there was an immediate tension I walked into in ’75). I was a bit of a thorn about Scriptures finding no real basis for a uniquely separate “baptism in the Holy Spirit” as understood by some but to my own Soul’s understanding that once the Holy Spirit arrived on the Day of Pentecost…He never left the building as did Elvis (although I do like to think of Elvis as in a cabin somewhere happily singing “Love Me Tender”). Allowing the Holy Spirit or Jesus or God to work in me fully….now that’s a life long work in progress that’s recently undergone major improvements from my perspective…but it’s taken me thirty years to stand exactly where I’ve always been standing since before I even understood that I was standing on the Promises of God: Jesus.

I have spoken before a bit about these things….most of what I’ve seen in my lifetime that claims to be “Words” of the Lord or Prophesy ….etc… I question and I doubt….but I do not doubt the active hand of the Living God however and whenever He wants to move among us. The Scriptures line out exactly the Fruit of the Spirit and if the Fruit is not there…it is the WRONG TREE and IT IS NOT JESUS. And the Scriptures also line out exactly how the Gifts are to be used to edify the body of Christ and I’ve rarely seen that done…and instead of seeking the Gifts…we are to be seeking to be Fruit bearing branches on the Vine… that show the Love of God…. We don’t need to seek words of knowledge or gifts or any of those “things”….if we “Seek” Jesus…We find Everything….

[wisedove]

wildwood,
saw your name pop up and just wanted to say "HELLO!" blessings.
dovehttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[matt_hatter]

And hello to wildy, dove and dust. The 3 Amaigas. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

[wisedove]

Hi,Matt!
did I miss Dust somewhere? oooops. Hi, Dust!

[john_r_jones]

If you do the "Thus..." stuff just right it sounds like Daffy Duck add in sufferin' succotash and you'll need to get the interpretation.

Jonesee

[wildwood_]

Jonesee <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

If you do the "Thus..." stuff just right it sounds like Daffy Duck add in sufferin' succotash and you'll need to get the interpretation<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Me: http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifI've been watching the same Daffy cartoons for let's see... go back to black &amp; white TV's with "Rabbit Ears" and really only the two VHF Networks...NBC &amp; CBS came in...ABC was UHF and reception was so-so (let's just say last week). Now, Daffy appears in my living room via re direct-cable "digitized", the same exact cartoons (a couple of new ones, too)...I still don't understand him.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif But I laugh, sympathize with duck, occasionally wish Elmer Fudd would not be out smarted by Bugs Bunny, that the Coyote would catch the Road Runner and that Pepe Le Pew would experience the same delight as that poor cat has in the aroma of Pepe's love....http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif


Belated Missing You All Hello Greetings to All...Hi to LabLady, JIA, Dovey, Copper, Hatter, Dustie, Osakadan, Flo, MCM78, Straussguy, and Lisa_H and whoever I just may have missed (J2t, Sameo, Dilly, etc...I know you all are around somewhere). I've been "OFF" the board lately. Because we are in transition....As in preparing for a big huge move across country courtesy of the U.S.Army at Christmas (of course)so my postings are definitely going to be in odd bits....as able for the next few weeks...not by deliberate choice just life http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

ANY extra prayer time available on our behalf would be much appreciated...especially for my husband who is shouldering quite a load. But by the Grace of God...He's the Man of God I wanted to marry at 18...and thought I'd been "deprived" of...although sometimes I do think perhaps if I'd known that marrying a "Knight in shining armor" would be the same thing as being a Soldier's Wife....hmmm perhaps I'd not have been so enthralled with the concept...and enjoyed those twenty years of being carefree more (or probably I'd have found something else to be dissatisfied about http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif).


Later guys.... Yes, I tried to use most of the icons... So, I return to packing or sorting out things which in a way is exactly what this message board has become all about for me. I thank you all for being here and sharing your hearts with me and helping me see how the Lord did lead me over the "River &amp; through the Woods" to "My GrandMa's House"...through the white &amp; drifting snow (which my daughter really really wants for Christmas in Arkansas...sigh...I'm OK with it as long as we aren't driving at the time...). Wildy

[flo1151]

wild,

goober says hey!

[matt_hatter]

I remember those days well, Wildy, but as a kid, not as the adult. Mucho prayers coming to you and da man during the move!

[sameo]

My thoughts and prayers with you Wildy &amp; your family!

[mdillon]

hey wildy, back atcha. peace and grace in all the transition

dilly

[jesusisawesome]

MCM, I also have a problem with all of the "Thus saith the Lord" stuff that gets thrown around. I'm not into looking for supernatural manifestions either . . . or for seeking signs.

That being said, God is still a supernatural God, and He still chooses at times to intervene in supernatural ways. You see Him working in this manner all throughout the bible.

There are the scriptures and the work of the Holy Spirit, and I believe there's balance, and these two aspects should be in agreement and not conflict.

I also see God being "super" in the natural all around me, and that we, as you put it, "hear God in the words of my children, in the homilies of my priest, in the news and in conversation with friends. I hear Him in worship and in prayer, in the singing of Psalms."

[jesusisawesome]

Wildy, your family will be in my prayers for your move! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

[mcmstaff78]

JIA, I'm not saying He doesn't, I'm not saying the bible doesn't. But what passes for it in most Charismatic/Pentecostal circles is not God, IMO, and the movement itself is based on error and those who walk around doing such things are deceived. We may not agree on that, but there you have it.

[lablady2]

wild: I'm sure the moves must be hard. The army life is not an easy one. I was hemming a skirt for my daughter's formal inspection at Ft. Campbell last week (formerly active duty, still reserves), and it made me a little emotional thinking about all our soldiers and the sacrifices they and their families make, sacrifices that are so much more difficult at Christmas. So, thank you! You and your family will be in my prayers.

[jesusisawesome]

MCM, I don't know enough of what happens in the Charismatic/Pentecostal circles to argue for or against.

I do believe that what Wildy received as ministry and encouragement to her heart was a good thing.

Wildy said it so well when she said the scriptures line out exactly how the Gifts are to be used to edify. Same as Wildy, from what I have seen, I've also "rarely seen that done" and as she put it "instead of seeking the Gifts…we are to be seeking to be Fruit bearing branches on the Vine… that show the Love of God…. We don’t need to seek words of knowledge or gifts or any of those “things”….if we “Seek” Jesus…We find Everything…."

[flo1151]

wild,

best wishes and traveling mercy on your move.

flo

[wildwood_]

Thank you all for your kind wishes &amp; prayers for my family. LabLady...prayers for your daughters too. Don't you have to of them in the military? Are they attached to the 101st...you can email anytime MSGUSA0601@yahoo.com (to resident ghosttroublerstalkerdude...don't bug me). We will pray for your family as well. Is your Dad feeling any better?

<font color="0000ff">And MCM78...PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Continue to boldly and vigilantly speak out about the abuses that you've seen regarding the misuse of the Holy Spirit and the inappropriate "naming" ideas as if from the Lord...which are entirely of man...but hey, no one wants to argue with God, Right??? Your wisdom, your knowledge of the Scriptures and the histories of how these doctrines developed and moved within both the historical settings of the main stream churches as well as the more recent Latter Day impact upon College Campuses...such as some of the material Bill_M has uncovered is essential to stay out in the open for debate &amp; discussion.</font>

I was delighted to see that my post stirred the pot so to speak and provoked our brains and hearts to search and try and test these deep things of the Lord. Each One of Us must make our own determination as to how to proceed with our life as a Spirit Filled Believer in Christ... HOWEVER...the LORD'S PLAN ALWAYS has a way of being what will happen! I very much enjoy seeing the facts as you discuss your reasoning’s regarding the end of dispensation of gifts...I do not agree with the conclusions but I understand the argument. And by point of fact, we could both come together at a dying child's bedside and both kneel in prayer... now if she arose...would she have been healed by prayer or the gift of healing? See, if our eyes are on Jesus...He will settle the small things for us.

In the meantime, please MCM78, I am so truly thankful that you've kept a watchful wary eye all these years... Now your knowledge may be just the little piece of a puzzle that finishes someone else's picture! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[speakword2004]

Goddammit
This is the best church I've ever been to.

[ulyankee]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I believe many of these people opperate in familiar spirits. Remember, all that glitters is not gold.)<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Wow mcmstaff, wildwood... Bill and I were talking on the phone the other day and he told me about a (scholarly) article he found about a related concept originating in the 16th century, among the same sources that he's discussed in this forum before - that it was believed that "seeds" (which were "spirits") were at the root of all illness, etc. But the concept also worked the other way around where "good" seeds/spirits could be passed on as well. Though the author argued that this concept was a precursor of what would become physical diagnostic sciences, so part of the history of medicine, where illness could be traced to a root "seed" cause (what we would know now as a virus or bacterium, for example). But the concept was originally an esoteric, spiritual one and came from the occult sciences of that period.

Given recent talks both among EN leaders as well as leaders in the larger "apostolic"/resurgent NOLR community about the concept of "seeds" I thought it was relevant to compare the two and he sent me the article...

Anyhow, for what it's worth. I tend to agree with MCMstaff here on this one. Remember the demon possessed girl in Acts did tell the truth... and also remember that the apostle Paul did say to take care in the laying on of hands so as not to share in the sins of others.

[ulyankee]

BTW, straussguy, if you are still here, Winkie Pratney and Bob Weiner have opened up a revival library at the WYAM ranch in Lindale, TX. They're still good friends. It was a combination of both their personal libraries but it looked like Pratney contributed more than Weiner. I think Pratney lives there in TX, at least part time. His son works there as well - he was very nice and helpful. I also know that Pratney still does the rounds - for example, he does something called "War Week" for youth once a year at my former church here in LA as well as an inner city church in Detroit my old church had a relationship with (not in EN though).

Anyway, I visited the library when it first opened a little over a year ago. I was more interested in the revival part of the library which is really the bulk of it, but there was a whole other section on holistic healing, not just books but also bottles and jars of what looked like all sorts of compounds and herbs and stuff. I believe his background before he went into the ministry was in chemistry I think? Anyway, Charisma magazine had a short article about the library summer before last and if you google it something about it would probably come up.

[straussguy]

Hi, Ulyankee,

I believe you're correct about Winkie Pratney's background as a chemist.

My most distinctive memory of Winkie Pratney concerns a talk he gave at an MLTS in Cookeville. He attempted to make a case against Augustinian and Calvinistic views of God's foreknowledge by linking them with a notion of the "eternal now" characteristic of eastern religions, especially Buddhism. (His target was the alleged complacency with respect to evangelism that the notion of predestination fosters.) In my naivete, his argument impressed me at the time; but I've come to see his argument as the incredibly naive (and profoundly misinformed and misguided) one. Perhaps he's changed his views in the 25 years since.

the StraussGuy

[mcmstaff78]

Uly, and all. My observations stem from my own experience, my research over the years (though not nearly as extensive or intensive as Bill_M's (Bill, where are you? We miss you!) and, obviously, the lens of my Orthodox faith. I don't ask that everyone accept my conclusions, but simply not to be naive about it. Good people can be caught up in "bad" things and Satan is much smarter than we are. Think about the cons within cons that people devise. Well, Satan is the ultimate con artist. The only thing that gives him power in this present Kingdom age is in deceiving humans to cede him some. I think if you look at the roots of Pentecostalism, the movements it stemmed from, the people who were the progenitors, and the fruit it has sown and, not least, the extraordinary doctrinal errors that have come out of it - it seems clear to be a deception sown by the enemy. Are there good, sincere, God loving people involved in it? Sure, but it is despite it's influence rather than because of it.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

strausguy: but I've come to see his argument as the incredibly naive (and profoundly misinformed and misguided) one. Perhaps he's changed his views in the 25 years since.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>No, his views haven't changed, but the wrapper has. Winkie holds to what might be thought of as "radical Arminianism". The academic or theological term has become either "Free Will Theism" or "Open Theology". It is the view that the future is unknowable as it doesn't exist and therefore the future free moral choices of free moral agents (i.e. that which does not follow merely from cause and effect) is not knowable with absolute certainty. In this view God is a great prognosticator, but doesn't actually know the future in the sense that it is open and visible to Him.

Yes, this is a theologically naive position, which is not the same as saying the people who hold it are theologically naive. There are quite a few quite brilliant people who espouse this view. The problem is that it is arises out of the intersection of, IMO, three things: a biblical literalism rooted in an extreme sola scriptura totally divorced from sacred Tradition; a desire to create a philosophically exhaustive, rationally coherent and consistent theodicy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy); and turning the doctrine that man is in the image of God to God being little more than a "supernatural man" (you see this tendency in NOLR theology as well). Once you start picking apart any one of these three "legs", the view starts to fall apart.

If you want to know how I know, I was a "free will theist" for 20 years or so. Got introduced to the concept, obviously, by the Red Book and had it nourished by the YWAMers I knew and then went to the sources. Spent 20 years studying and propagating this stuff. In fact, I had a website for 6 or 7 years that promoted this. You can see it the "Wayback machine" (http://web.archive.org/web/20010202015700/http://revivaltheology.com/) if you care. It is one of my shames.

(Message edited by mcmstaff78 on December 08, 2006)

[ulyankee]

straussguy, to echo mcmstaff, I can confirm based on my fairly recent visit to WYAM that he hasn't, he still espouses what is also known as Moral Government Theology (http://www.equip.org/free/DM610.pdf).

[ulyankee]

mcmstaff, Bill is still around, but isn't really keeping up with FACTNet - moved on to other things. Related things for sure, but things other than posting here. I don't talk to him as often as I used to but I can certainly pass on the message that you (as well as others) were asking about him.

[mcmstaff78]

Or, you can see a website that espouses the theology here (http://www.biblical-theology.com/moralgov2/index.htm). Unfortunately, this is basically taken directly from the website I use to run and my name appears as the author of a few of the articles. May God have mercy on me!!

[ulyankee]

mcmstaff, thanks for the links. One of the dangers I see in a more extreme Arminian and/or Pelagian view is that when you limit God's omnipotence and/or omniscience, you limit His sovereignty, which makes Satan seem even stronger in comparison and you move toward operational dualism, even as people like Jim Laffoon have recently stated, "We're not a bunch of dualists!" It also increases man's power in comparison b/c God then "needs" man in order to effect His will. And then additional works of deliverance or inner healing or what have you are "required" to really deliver you from sin - the cross isn't enough. It's a slippery slope for sure, and difficult to stop at any one point either logically or spiritually.

Interesting that Winkie Pratney argued against Augustine b/c if you read Augustine's Confessions, you'd find that he was once an ardent follower of Manichaeism before he converted to Christianity, which was a form of Gnosticism presenting a serious threat to Christianity in his time - it was also dualist. Augustine spent the rest of his life actively opposing Manichaeism.

I can't tell you how much comfort I've been getting recently whenever I listen to a Calvinist preacher teaching on grace alone. I can take my "sabbath rest" in Him. I believe one can get into trouble too if you go too far into extreme right Calvinism but I have to admit I've been finding so much more comfort in that side of the fence theologically because God is sovereign, period.

My husband was brought up in the Holiness tradition where Baptists and Calvinists were almost like the enemy. He's starting to see differently I think because at the root he's more Calvinist than he lets on, despite the tradition he came out of. I found it interesting though that the systematic theology they used at his college (what is now Lee University) was a Reformed one where the author espoused amillennialism. Also, my father in law (the CoG minister) at the end of his life didn't feel that way anymore about Baptists and etc. btw - he thought they were doctrinally ok as long as they weren't hard line cessationists. Some people may find Calvinists dry and boring and lacking in the Holy Spirit but I don't AT ALL.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All catching up
I think that it is a mix of Calvinism and Arminianism/Pelagianism, Calvinism always appears correct because, on can always say it was preordained. And there is the question about man's free will and choices. If you dig deep into Calvinism, one walks into the question of what about the babies. It seems after a good run down of man's thoughts of God and His reality, His thoughts, etc, one will run into gutters on any road of man's confinement of Him ( I am of course referring to basic Christian denominations with some tenets that are held in common.)}

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All catching up
I think that it is a mix of Calvinism and Arminianism/Pelagianism, Calvinism always appears correct because, on can always say it was preordained. And there is the question about man's free will and choices. If you dig deep into Calvinism, one walks into the question of what about the babies. It seems after a good run down of man's thoughts of God and His reality, His thoughts, etc, one will run into gutters on any road of man's confinement of Him ( I am of course referring to basic Christian denominations with some tenets that are held in common.)}