How do you evaluate if ENbs reform is heading in the right direction

[speak_truth_in_love]

Hi everyone! I am a regular browser on these message boards, and understand people's hearts to see Every Nation's faults exposed and to pray for reformation and change in this ministry. I'm just wondering, how do you evaluate if the reform in Every Nation is heading in the right direction? Also, as many of the people posting here are former members of EN or Maranatha and may not be presently involved in EN churches, how you get current information on the status of EN's reforms? Do any of you have connections to the inside, to the people who are a part of making the reforms, or to members of the churches who are being reformed?

(Message edited by speak_truth_in_love on December 05, 2006)

[speakword2004]

speak_truth_in_love

You can email me questions at

ruffledfur1@yahoo.co.uk

[speakword2004]

speak_truth_in_love

Q1. Evaluation is very difficultas it invloves time and much effort
Q2. Information comes from a wide variety of sources external and internal to EN
Q3. Yes

[ginger1]

speak truth in love, we evaluate them based on their teaching and preaching, their blogs. Also we evaluate them also with the people leaving these churches at a current time.
And they are people who are hoping for reform are speaking out, then we also based on how they are treated by the EN and VCF leadership. And so far the treatment are still the same, there are abuse , control and cover up.
So even they said they are "reformed" but there is no fruit of it.

Let me give you a current example of Jim lafoon preaching about leadership. If you go to EN website and read Jim's blog, you will noticed that he has not changed.
From that we based it on the bible. Especially when we read Paul's life in the chronological order.
From the beginning Paul said "I am not inferior to the most imminent apostles" in other words I am one of the greatest

Then 5 - 6 years later, He said I am the LEAST of the Apostles.
then 5 more years pass by, Paul said I am the LEAST of the Saints.
then 5 more years pass by Paul said I am the GREATEST of sinners.

You can see the progression , True Reform/Change gets more humble not arrogant.

Then you go look at Jim's blog, you will noticed there is really no change at all.

Jesus clearly said there is FRUIT in Repentance. As you can see, a year pass by, there is no fruit. Not even change in teaching nor preaching. People are still leaving spiritually badly abuse even in Rice Brookes and VCF churches. At a current situation, this is after they announced a reform.

[robert_unknown]

sources of information are:
- EN websites
- EN books (Just as "A Divine Aliance"
- EN conferences, tapes, videos
- sermons from EN preachers

as i said at another place. EN seems to be concerned that scandals like the ones during the last 12 months will not happen anymore, and they seem to understand that shperding is not the right thing. But they do not understand that their roots are wrong, and will again and again produce the same things.

[ulyankee]

speak truth, to echo what Ginger said about churches leaving, one might look at the fact that Pst. Ray McCollum and his church just left EN. Pst. Ray was in Nashville with current EN leadership for many, many years before he was removed from the church he founded... later he was reinstated in Austin, at Greg Ball's old church, which had also been where Champions for Christ was based for many years before Ball's removal. Pst. Ray was very much on board with EN's (true) mission and vision, was very loyal to EN leadership (despite losing his original church!) and since Pst. Ray's teachings have been pretty consistent through the present day I would assume whatever issues he and the Austin church had with EN did not have to do with theology. This is a sign along with several others at least to me that EN as an organization is not presently, as John the Baptist told the Pharisees, "producing fruit in keeping with repentance."

That doesn't mean that every pastor in EN is corrupt or "bad." There are many good pastors in EN. However, as in Maranatha, the vast majority of local pastors don't have a clue what really goes on among top leadership.

Pst. Ray DID have a clue.

blessings,
ulyankee

[mdillon]

that Pst. Ray McCollum and his church just left EN.

sorry ulyankee, I must have missed this on another thread, but can you tell me when this happened and any details behind it? Did all of his staff exodus with him?

Thank you for all you do here.

dilly

[mdillon]

well, duh, i just found the other thread. persistance, dilly

[speak_truth_in_love]

I have been on staff with Every Nation for a year, and I heard a couple weeks ago that Pastor Ray left. I agree this may be an indication of where things are still at even with restructuring of the movement. I am in contact with people who are playing a major role in the entire restructuring process in the states, and I know that it has been a hard go, becuase there are roots that run deep of teachings that are not biblical- such as unbiblical views of authority (of course most on here know them all becuase you have been affected by these teachings). There are mixed reasons for the restructuring being a hard go- there are some people who are so used to the old paradigms, and they do not wish to change (so they leave EN), and some that may be leaving because the old paradigms are not changing quick enough for their liking, and the staff themselves have been abused. I have been a member of an Every Nation church for 5 years now (I recently moved to a new city and am helping with a new church plant), and I have witnessed things that have gone wrong in the ministry as a whole, (although I have not been the recipient of controlling leadership personally), and I am praying that God would have mercy on the movement as a whole as I know that there are people who really have a genuine heart to see change in the ministry, and to see true reformation. The heart of these issues has been discussed at our nation-wide staff conference last year, and many of the things that have been talked about on here I have heard from the senior leadership themselves, who have made efforts to see reform happen)My heart as a EN staff member is to see true change, to see Jesus be the leader of people's lives (not myself- I have no power to change lives, only Christ can do that), and to make sure (by God's grace) that the abuses of the past are not repeated. I am wondering- do you think there is any hope for true Every Nation reformation as a whole? Or do you think it is a lost cause? Becuase otherwise i'll be out of a job, and all this is in vain.


(Message edited by speak_truth_in_love on December 10, 2006)

[ginger1]

Speak its a lost cause. Some people does not want to change, You can try to overlook the abuses, since it has been only a year or so.
But you can tell if they are aiming for change by their preaching.

Listen to Jim lafoon preach. Destiny , Birthright. Nothing has change. What do you discern in what he preach ? I discern desperation because a lot of people and churches are leaving. And he will soon be out of a job. Does that sound like reform to you ? Or even repenting ?

A person who change from Control to Liberty. Will give every freedom for anybody to choose whether to leave or stay. Instead what I noticed its more on manipulating people to stay and telling them about losing their destiny or birthright. Thats not reform. Can't force you to stay any longer so we'll manipulate you to stay. And Jim Lafoon is the top Prophet of EN, what does that say to you ?

Just discern if they are reforming.

[jbkrems]

I have a question for Speak_Truth_in_Love:

If Pastor Ray and his Austin church have been out of EN for several weeks, why did Lafoon come and preach at Pastor Ray's church last Sunday??? That to me does not make sense at all.

Do you know anything about this???

[john_r_jones]

S-T-I-L,
I like your handle. I've been a Christian for thirty odd years, I came into Maranatha when I was 17 almost 51 now. I've known the leadership in EN for some time have stayed at their houses and been in the trenches as it were on missions.

That really isn't the point but just a frame of reference for you. In my later life I've really found or maybe been found by Jesus. As I've gotten older and hopefully wiser I've found this to be true there is a truth in the term "Simplicity of the Gospel". Which isn’t to say a simplistic Gospel? Paul wrote of keeping our lives simple and unencumbered, I was told in MCM that meant not getting all tangled up in careers, houses, or hobbies and family over ministry and the like. So I was single for almost the entire time I was in MCM, lived in a lot of staff houses and as I approached thirty either lived in my own place or shared a house with one or two others or for a time a married couple and I lived together-a staff house with little kids.

I was married in the MCM system and soon afterwards divorced-my fault. So in my mid thirties I found myself questioning things, life, my Christianity, sometimes my sanity. What I found through all of that was that Jesus was rescuing me from religion and calling me to relationship. MCM had become a tremendous hindrance to that relationship and the Father in His graciousness got me out of it. God has blessed me since and I enjoy being a husband, dad, and community member.

I am a community member of the local church, and the city in which I live. I am much more of an evangelist now than I ever was in MCM because I've met the real Jesus, sort of like the woman at the well. She was the town disgrace yet when she met Jesus who knew of her disgrace He didn't reject her He accepted her and healed her. As a consequence she was the first evangelist, a woman to boot, who went into that same town a changed person, she told them, "I just met a man who told me everything I ever did." The difference between what I see in Jesus and what I see in religion is that all of us are a disgrace in some fashion, there are things that make us shudder when we're alone, or glimpse ourselves in the mirror on a bad day. Jesus knows us in all of those intimate spaces that are places of shame, or hurt, or resentment, anger, etc. but He doesn't exploit those places He uses them for His glory. Religion tells us we're screwed-up and here's a sermon on just how screwed-up you are and four points on how to cover for it and by the way it makes you dependant on me and therefore justifies my salary.

Jesus tells us oh I know about that, so? C'mon and follow me I like you, I like you even more than you do yourself. You see it wasn't for a sense of duty that Jesus went through what He went through, He genuinely not only loves us He enjoys us, He likes us.

I've written about this many times and will close with this: Jesus' companions were the outcasts of the religious system and the social convention of the time. When Jesus healed the lepers He touched them, they were required to shout out as they went through the streets, "Unclean, unclean!" Imagine as He touched them and the sensation returned to their hands that for the first time in years they felt the touch of a human hand. He then told them to go and show themselves to the Priests and make an offering for their cleansing, He restored them to respectability in their community and religion as well. I think we are to be involved in our world as Christians-Speak (the) truth in love; I just found it much more effective and real doing it in a place of personal freedom and relationship with Jesus and with other Christians, of course. I have to tell you that I am having more fun as an old codger of 51 as a Christian than I ever had in that monstrosity of religion.

John

[ulyankee]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

am in contact with people who are playing a major role in the entire restructuring process in the states, and I know that it has been a hard go, becuase there are roots that run deep of teachings that are not biblical- such as unbiblical views of authority<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Hi speak truth, thank you for posting. Can you say specifically which doctrinal errors they are addressing, or do you know? I know you mentioned authority as one example but if you can provide more details if you know them and are willing to share that would be helpful - if for example the "headship" or "covering" doctrines are being addressed, or delegated authority including the delegated divine authority that apostles have to name/rename people's destinies and etc.? Or finally, if Every Nation still interprets the Great Commission in relation to itself to mean that it has the mandate to reach all nations, disciple all spheres of society, and bring them "under authority" so that it can later rule all nations - if it still believes God will specifically give EN literal rulership over nations if it does this? One of the reasons why I ask about specifics is because I personally believe the roots of abusive leadership behavior are ultimately doctrinal though there are those here who I know don't necessarily agree with me and I respect that, esp. since there is a point where it can be a chicken or the egg thing - where doctrine and practice can feed off each other. Also, thanks to many churches bringing their sermons online either through their websites or podcasting I've had a chance to sample several recent teachings and don't see much change... also Jim Laffoon's devotionals on EN's website reflect little change, though I know that it's also from a devotional he wrote a couple years ago now, so I do wonder what is being addressed on a doctrinal level.

Also, this doesn't have anything to do with doctrine, do you know if EN is still proceeding with trying to join the ECFA, and if so, if an audited financial statement is available yet which is an ECFA requirement for membership? Thanks, and blessings to you.

(Message edited by ulyankee on December 10, 2006)

[lc_20]

"Becuase otherwise i'll be out of a job, and all this is in vain."


speak_truth_in_love,

Have you considered going into ministry through another denomination? There are many other options out there for you. This statement of yours above is a real possibility. If you have only been in EN for 5 years, I can promise you you haven't seen the worst of it yet.

Can I ask you, when you were sent out to the new city for a church plant, did they offer you a salary or are you raising your own funds?

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi Speak Truth,


I would encourage you as a onetime person like you, and in the position you are in currently. I began to be without a job, so to speak. He will make a way for you. It will not be in vain, your love for Him and His people. Sometimes, it is good to step back and take a good look at where you are going. I think that if changes involving one's heart, ie.repentance, are not completed at this time, things will only go down hill from here. There have many times like this in this ministry before in its roots Maranatha, as it came into being as Morning Star, and into now EN.

As far as I can see not much change, the heart did not move. Maranatha was exposed on a national sense , in the Wall Street Journal, Tv news shows, magazines, ie. Christian Today. This En has been exposed here on the net, often by it's own people posting here.

I wish that things could be done in a different way, but when resistance, as you tell us exists, things will be done in public, in these forumns.}

[robert_unknown]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

and I know that it has been a hard go, becuase there are roots that run deep of teachings that are not biblical- such as unbiblical views of authority<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

please read here: http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/25682.html?1165131636

[forword]

STIL, Additional sources of information:
Freinds still in EN leadership and administrative positions
Friends recently out of EN leadership or employment who still have friends in EN leadership
Friends still attending or working for EN churches
Ministry team emails that I still recieve, even though I left the church and MT 2 years ago.

I am much more concerned about saving the lost sheep hurt by this ministry than saving the ministry. In fact, I'm not sure the point, other than to keep your job, as you stated.
The church of Jesus Christ will move forward, no matter what we or anyone else does. He will always find people that have willing obedient hearts who will serve Him.
The importance, the signicance of any one ministry in the big picture is nil.

[the_west_here_i_come]

speak truth in love first I appreciate your posts and your gentleness as Peter spoke of. The Lord ahs a purpose for everything and regardless if EN reprents or not ask the Lord to see if he has called You there. If he as has then stay, what is important is God's will for your life and I sense that You definately want to obey the Lord so pray and seek his guidence

[robert_unknown]

... and not to forget the personal experiences many of us had in EN. the thing that struck me most, when i first discovered this board, was the fact, that my personal story seems to have been repeated all over the world quite similar...