I am in Cult

[sudarat]

Hello Ladies and gentlemen

I am a new member of Victory Fellowship Church in Asian <member> and I have been attend this churc just 3 month

First of all....

Let me to wonder Maybe I am just a new member of This church I can find They never try to control over my life They never blame me if I cant attend cell group ,or Leader meeting because I am so busy with my work

and they never blame ,bite ,bark me when I cant attend sunday church service because I am crazy busy in some weekend or too tried

Every nation in thailand have a good relationship with another church in Thailand They allow me to join another church as I want and our full time , leader always join another church just for fun and entertain themself

Truth me ! As a member of EN I am free to do whatever I want ... go to movie...shopping ...talk with a beautiful girl member ....attend another church ......sleeping and miss a church on sunday !

I can do and I never feel guilty to do it

They never got angry if I go to church service just for sitting and listening and i never bring my friend to church on sunday

Of course They are very friendly like a close-knit group and I never seen our pastor or leader try to control or force our member Actually they try to give inspire and encourage our member

Yes EN have a level of leader , we practice one-on - one disciple and ENLI Class are a little bit expensive and They try avoid to talk about Maranatha ......and they consider EN as a apostle church ...Of course They are not a percfect church

But they never force me to attend ENLI ......and our pastor never said " I am your leader so you have to obey me .....Obey me = Obey God ! or something like that

However our pastor accept about Maranatha are cult.... But he said EN are not a cult anymore EN have change many thing in many year ago

Of course I am just new member of this church I never seen the sign of cult in this church Do they a fake christian ? cult ? How i know ? Please advise me about should i continue to join this church ?

Maybe Victory Church Philipine are very different form EN church in Europe or USA Or Maybe they just pretend to be a christian with me Let me to get confuse !!! I need your advise

PS.Sorry for I am poor in english language

[mcmstaff78]

Sudarat,

I can't speak for your branch of EN, but typical behavior of spiritually abusive people/systems is to slowly pull people in - get them immersed in the organization, get their lives centered around the "church" - and then start the control stuff.

I would have said the same thing as you for the first six to nine months I was in MCM.

[matt_hatter]

This was my thought too, sudarat, and welcome by the way, your English is fine!

The questions may have more answers for you a year from now. If you start to see signs of coercive activities, I would be concerned.

[osakadan]

Do you have an inner feeling you might be in a cult sudarat? Or is it just because of what you read?

[lisa_harrison]

Sudarat, Are you in Thailand? Have you heard of Steve Murrell? I guess some pastors are better than others, just don't ever let them push you around and treat you like a child. They have no right to force you to contribute money or time or attend meetings that cost lots of money. You may contact me on this thread as much as you like. I was in Maranatha in 1978-1980 in Starkville, Mississippi where a lot of the leaders emerged from. There was some bad stuff and good stuff that went on, but God protected me from being a leader and being in a position to hurt people. I was always walking my own path and didn't always fit their mold. Lisa

[banshee]

I'd encourage you to visit around at several churches and make sure each church knows you're visiting other places. The churches that don't mind that you're attending elsewhere are probably keepers.

But I'd stay away from any church that pressures you "to make us your home".

[sudarat]

Hello ladies and Gentlemen

Thank a lot indeed for all of your share

Of course In EN church They are very close-knit group and En in Thailand are a new and small church

Many thing I dont like in this church is

1.offering, tithe Our pastor talk to much about tithe and spend 5 - 10 minute on sunday service for give encourage a member to pay money and tithe for church They dont force me to pay tithe But he talk again and again and again ...about God will bless U if you pay tithe if you want -- health, wealth,success, whatever..Please pay your money for EN

2.our pastor are the most richest man in the church He live like a millionare .......

3.They try to focus and recruit student form university It very easy to bring a sutdent form university to EN church

4. Our pastor try hard to give inspire for a member to attend Every Nation Conference at Philipine He dont know about Thailand are a poor country and airline ticket to Philipine are extra expensive for thai people

Of course Here ! A member attend meetings that cost lots of money Money Money and Money .....

I dont understand why Philipine are a very poor country but many pastor form PHP live like a millionare Who support their money ?

However I never seen any cult method about Love Bomb , brainwash and our member can have a different opinion with a pastor You can feel free to share &amp; discuss whatever topic you want

The only one topic that not a good idea for share &amp; discuss in EN church is about MCM They try to avoid to talk about MCM

It a top secret for our church !

They dont force you to attend ENLI But if you dont attend ENLI you will miss the opportunity to be a leader !!!!

For Victory weekend it about inner healing and I am too tried to join this program No Problem ! No one bite me if I am too busy to join victory weekend

I never heard about "Steve Murrell" our pastor never talk about the founder of EN for a member

YEb I think EN are not a cult At Least They are better than mormon , Jehovah Withness ,International church of christ who brainwash a member

Actually Thailand EN are new and small church we have a sunday service on afternoon

Truth Me ! Our staff ,elder and hard core member They always attend another church on the morning and our pastor dont mind if you come back to Every nation on afternoon

In thailand you can attend 2- 3 church in the same time if you have time enough and you happy to do


What i love in EN and decide continue to join EN church : friendly environment , Dancing ,jump up and down and run run run around the church ....

How to know this church are a cult ?

Can i continue to attend this church just 2 - 3 month for make sure ?

My real point question : Can I talk or ask a question with a pastor about EN : cult or christian

Next week I will talk with my pastor about EN: Cult or christian I hope that He will not kick me out of his church

[matt_hatter]

You have raised more than enough concerns to confirm to me that EN is the same all over the world. You are in the LOVE Bomb stage. Just a thought, is there some traditional denominations in Thailand? You may want to seek one out. Why wait 2-3 months? A year? Tik said recently, I believe, that his "gut" was telling him to leave during those first months, but he didn't listen. If you are concerned about asking legitimate questions, the organization has problems.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi Sudrat,
Thank you for your posts. I would be very careful, I was a leader in MCM and it sounds more like what was going on in MCM. It is a very similar process. If you ask they will deny that they are a cult, in form or matter. Sometimes the leaders do not even know, as with me and my family. That is a part of the danger. People here will pray for you; it is so good that you are asking questions. Please keep reading, I can tell that you have. Ask more questions here, any time.
}

[osakadan]

Already you have major issues with how en pastors live like millionaires. Why does it feel wrong? I think you already know somthing is wrong with this church.

I understand there are some things you like but already you are seeing things you don't like. Run now before it is too difficult to leave.

[robert_unknown]

1. thithing is not a new coventantal (new testament) law. if the money gets used properly, you may cosider - volunteerly - to tithe. God will not bless or reject you based on your giving!

2. EN is MUCH about money. many of the pastors like to live like millionaires. it "prrofs" to them that they are "sucessfull". sucess is - in their opinion - also a material thing. so if you see the livestyle of your pastor, and his emphasis on thiting, <you can draw your conclusions about where the money goes.

3. students are also very easy to manipulate and to abuse. thats perhaps not the intention of anyone, but it ends everywhere like this. read tiks weblog.

Dont attend "Victory weekend" - you will have to fast 3 or 4 days, and it is ONLY indoctrination! stay away and warn others.

many here on this forum think EN is a sociological cult. other share the opinion, that EN is a church, but led by cultic people.

others and i have done my research and found that the base doctrines of EN come out from a cultic heresy called "New Order of the Latter Rain", which is widely seen as the "christian version" of the "New Age/ Thought" movement.

there are some very concerning doctrines, and ideas that make EN sociological dangerous.

i have been a member in EN since many years, and was even pastoring a church which got eaten by EN. I have seen LIVE what happenes behind the scenes.

with one word: the vision is more important than the individual!

you decide what to do. my opinion, after many years and after much research: be carefull! dont let yourself fool by an outward friendlyness.

[miltietoast]

welcome sudarat.
money is a key issue in EN. They tend to reach out towards people that can bring in money and ignore or overlook the rest.There are sincere people within EN just like in Maranatha. The roots of EN I believe are about money and power and those roots continually reproduce themselves.
Trust the Lord for direction and do not quench His leading

[mcmstaff78]

Sudarat, I think you've got to distinguish between a "cult", theologically speaking, and religious systems that are spiritually abusive. While many "cults" are both theologically wrong and spiritually abusive, there are many spiritually abusive "churches" that are not necessarily theologically "wrong" (in the broadest post-reformation sense). But spiritual abuse can be very subtle. The over emphasis on money is a big deal, to me. It demonstrates a lack of true spiritual insight and a twisting of the Gospel into a matter of materialistic prosperity. I believe that is the "whore of babylon" religious system, or at least a prominent characteristic of it. Also, try questioning the pastor's interpretation of scripture, or even some church polity - see what the reaction is. Watch for signs that disagreement with the pastor is treated as a "symptom" of some spiritual defect in the questioner, that it is "rebellion" or a sign of spiritual "immaturity". You've already said the pastor is living like a millionaire in the midst of a poor congregation - how does that display the servanthood of Christ? To me (and others more knowledgeable than I), these are signs of at least a potentially spiritually abusive situation. Remember, our Lord said "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matthew 11:28-30) Whatever is contrary to this is not of the Spirit of the Lord.

[sunshinesaint]

Hi Sudarat. I will call a spade a spade!
Some questions for you:

1. How many "older" people do you see in your congregation?

2. Does you church witness to any one other than university student?

3. Does everyone wear "super nice...expensive" clothes to church"

4. Do you have a purple book?
5. If you go to a home group/discipleship group...have they ever done any studies that are not from the purple book or from the Every nation series by Steve Murrell?

Look at what you know about Jesus - search and ask Him about His Character - what was he like - what people did Jesus hang out with, what did Jesus wear, was her dirty or clean??? Did this worry Him? Where did Jesus live? What people were Jesus interested in? Just uni student?

Uni students are in the process of..."searching" that is why they are easy targets - not just for EN but for other things like Social reform groups etc.

I love seeing older people in a church - they are wise and they have experience in walking with Christ - in my EN church there were NONE! Even just a few is not enough as far as I'm concerned.

Go to the Word of God and ask God about this church - what does your gut say to you - also why and how did you come across this site?? - something must have caused you to come here.

These are just a few things that a come to my mind...have to run...my baby has woken up...bless you!!!!!!!! Good luck in your lONG walk with Christ...through your whole lifetime

[sudarat]

Hello all

Thank you a lot for you share Maybe your former friend in EN church make you deep hurt so much and you cant see anything good in EN church

let me to answer your challenge question

1. How many "older" people do you see in your congregation?

None !! All of a member are a student in university or 30 - 40 age and I consider myself are a young man <but>

2. Does you church witness to any one other than university student?

No I think it just a good technique for make a church become a big &amp; better church because It very easy to bring a student university to church and They have much more power ,energy and when they grow up and have a good job

They will can pay much more money,tithe to EN church

AH ! Oh my God By blind start to open !!!


3. Does everyone wear "super nice...expensive" clothes to church"

Of course ....In the land of
smiles..sand ,,sea,,sunshine..a lot of sexy girl ... But poor

The rich family only can send their children to attend university

Almost of our member wear super nice...expensive" clothes to church" They have expensive mobile phone , Laptop and travel to

I accept that there are no a poor people in this church

Of course our pastor is living like a millionaire in the midst of a rich congregation

4. Do you have a purple book?

Our pastor said When you attend ENLI or become leader you will know what is purple book

I dont know what is purple book because I am just a new member and I think Purple is a book for discipleship or for leadership

In EN if you are just a member you will never heard about Purple book or Steve Murrell

But you will know when you attend ENLI...

Enli will open for a member at Thailand on Feb and our pastor try hard to inspire everyone to attend this 2 year class

How about ENLI Fun ? Dangerous ? fascinate or frighten ?


5. If you go to a home group/discipleship group...have they ever done any studies that are not from the purple book or from the Every nation series by Steve Murrell?

Yeb I accept We always use the Every nation series by Steve Murrell for preach on sunday service and in our cell group

I think it does not matter about this church are rich , that church are poor
Some church have many university student
some church have many elder
some church have many business man

It does not matter for me Do u know In thailand Some church are very rich because they are form american missionary

and if you were a pastor form USA, Europe missionary you will living like a millionare in Thailand

My opinion is it not wrong for pastor who living like a millionare because we are "International Church " not a thai church

However ...

As a good member everything seem like very good ,friendly , fun , and make me get impression in this church so much


The frighten experience will happen when I attend ENLI ?

What is pupple book ? I try hard to send e-mail to my pastor in Thailand but he never reply my e-mail I think he avoid to reply any negative information

I am his disciple and we one-on-one with him on every sunday I will ask him on this sunday Sure !!!

[ginger1]

Hey Sudarat, I am a former VCF member, I do have several friends in VCF that are not controlling, but some are. It really depends on who your pastors are. And some are not into Money but some are. Unfortunately , a lot of the top VCF leadership are into Money, not all by the way.
VCF churches works differently from EN church. They are a bit more liberating. But most of the problem lies on cover up. There are people in VCF that are being told to shut up when they start questioning about building funds or money that are being used for missions are not exactly going to Missions. The top VCF leaders refused to answer any of those question and most of the time , they would rather return your money to shut you up. Its a practice.

One of the major problem in VCF which is you have noticed already is the way these pastors lived. Some like millionaires. While on the side, nobody knows what happened to the money collected for the Missions or the building funds. They kept saying that they will open the books on the pulpit, but when they were ask to do it, THEY REFUSED. And anyway who press on, get their money back as long as they do not open their books or asnwer your question. Thats how VCF works.

I am not surprised if your pastor refused to answer any of your question. Its part of the Cover up in VCF. EN the same way. Thats why some of churches that recently left was because they finally found out also EN's history. Its Maranatha.
My suggestion is to find another church. The bible is full of history, we study them and learn from them. The Lord never had any plans to cover up David's sin even he was forgiven. Even Peter's sin in Galatians. We learn from our past. We talk about it.
In VCF and EN, they hide their past.

The process of repentance and healing is first we repent and admit it, then discuss it. We talk about how God's forgiveness, grace and deliverance. In EN and VCF, they have this so called repentance then that was the end of it.
There is no fruit of repentance. No talking of deliverance because there never was one.

So its really up to you if you want to stay or go. But with my suggestion, I will say leave. You would not want to invest your time, year after year after year like us then at the end, they will turn against you. Most of us were there for more than 10 years, I was there for 18 years. From Philippine VCF to US EN.

But if you decided to stay, hopefully what happened to us will not happen to you. As I said not all VCF churches are abusive. Its a chance that you have to take.

[justyn_m]

<font color="0000ff">Dear Sudarat,

Please do not believe the subjective evaluations that are posted here in this forum. There may be a bit of truth in what they are saying about what a cult is. But Every Nation Churches and Victory Christian Fellowship is definitely not one. Let me give you a working definition of the word cult from a theological perspective:</font>

<font color="ff0000">A cult of Christianity is a group of people, which claiming to be Christian, embraces a particular doctrinal system taught by an individual leader, group of leaders, or organization, which (system) denies (either explicitly or implicitly) one or more of the central doctrines of the Christian faith as taught in the sixty-six books of the Bible. (Adapted from Alan W. Gomes, Unmasking the Cults)</font>

<font color="0000ff">Now, whom will you believe? A researcher who have devoted his life from objectively researching and understanding what a cult group really is or some people who are purely subjective in their thoughts and ways. I hope you will listen to a more objective response rather than being subjective in their criticism. Please remember that a group becomes a cult if he has rejected the following major doctrines:

1. Trinity
2. Jesus' Deity and Humanity
3. Deity and Personality of the Holy Spirit
4. Salvation by Grace through Faith.

Now a Christian church becomes cultic (not "cult") in her practices if she becomes extreme in some minor doctrines like the following:

1. Personality-centered
2. Uniform clothings and behaviours
3. One Bible translation only like the King James Proponent churches.
4. Shepherding-movement that micro-manages ones life to the point of making final decision for his followers.
5. Authoritarianism which means one cannot correct the wrong doctrine of the pastor.

I have not found these latter practices among the Every Nation Churches and Victory Christian Fellowship churches. I hope this will help you and the others here in distinguishing between what a "cult of Christianity" is and what "cultic" really means. I suggest that you stay first in that church. Don't believe that "love bombing" exist among Every Nation churches for the purpose of deceiving like what one FactNet person here has been telling. There is nothing wrong with "love" for even the apostle John encouraged us that "since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another." (1Jn 4:11) What's wrong is to "love-bomb" so the person will depend on them emotionally and eventually will make it difficult for him to leave since he is already emotinally attached to them. The Boston Movement cults are like this. God bless and enjoy your freedom in Christ!</font>

[mcmstaff78]

Sudarat,

As I indicated in my original post, a church can be spiritually abusive without conforming to the classic and/or narrow definition of a "cult". While EN/Victory Churches may not fit the definition that Justyn posts, practices among various congregations as experienced by people posting here certainly constitutes spiritual abuse. Watch out for those who hop on this forum, engage in defending these folks and then hop right back off. Find a "mainstream" church to be part of. There is no benefit to being a member of EN/VC that you won't find in an mainstream church and lot of things that you will be able to avoid.

[lablady2]

"There is no benefit to being a member of EN/VC that you won't find in an mainstream church and lot of things that you will be able to avoid."

Sudarat: An important person gave me this same piece of very good advice shortly after I joined Maranatha Ministries, a forerunner (those who know, excuse the pun) of EN. How I wish I had listened! I bought into the elitist mentality of MCM - "God would spew the lukewarm out of his mouth, no compromiser", etc. Many years later, I discovered that I could have been far more effective with far less drama/trauma had I just joined a mainstream denominational church.

You will get lots of good advice here. However, I learned a very hard lesson from my experience, so I will share it with you: you and you alone will reap the consequences for your actions, so it's best if you make your own decisions after careful consideration.

[sunshinesaint]

HI again,
I agree with lablady2...unfortunately most people will learn from their own experience...no matter what other people say, they still continue to seek the answers on their own. I was warned by my parents when I first started going to EN, but I just thought that they were not "full on" enough...same with all my then current Christian mates...I just thought that they were not wanting to be a part of an exciting new church that laid out everything for God. BUT BUT BUT...they were older and wiser and had been Christians longer. EN tries to run church like your walk with Christ is a sprint. WHEN in fact it is a long lifetime of walking...and sometimes time to stop and smell the roses http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Bask in the sunshine...
I was sucked in because it looked exciting...it may to you too. But after time if I did not attend VLI/ENLI or go to homegroup - i was made to feel like I was "not good enough" for the "high" standard of the EN church...this is simply just one aspect.

I say again - go to your Word...and ask the Lord what He reckons of you going there. If you are concerned The word states for to cast all your cares upon Him - ask him and cast "going there" to Him. He will tell. Often this is the voice in your gut.

Then check out this website if you so desire - mnay of the people on here have had personal VALID experiences of "shepherding". This is the continuing thing that occurs in all EN churches..."discipleship" is what they call it. Where a mentor becomes your disicpler and most often they turn into your God...you have to ask them for guidance and help and they start to "direct" your life...rather than you being taught how to turn to the Lord. I relied upon them rather than on Christ. They are a man centred church. Simple - the evidence of that is on this site. We are from all over the world - we have MANY Asian people in our church here and they were all sucked in too. This is cross cultural...not just USA, Europe and Africa...I am in the Asia Pacific too.

I hope this helps.

[the_west_here_i_come]

Sudarat I encourage you to do actually what christ had said: look at the fruit of the ministry and pray. The bible says You will know them by their fruit; not to seem judgemental but the Lord revealed to me from Jude that En is twice dead (rebellion) and have sheperds who only feed themselves; unfortunately the "head" of this minstry, Murrell and Broocks, and those leaders are exactly like this and yet the word of God says to stay away from people like this. Moreover, the Bible says don't love the world, anyone who does the love the world the love of the Father isn't in them. This minstry like many unfortunately love money and that is yet the root of all evil according to what the Word of God says. Again go back and measure thier works according to the Word of God and if they don't line up then You may need to leave or pray and ask the Lord's purpose of why you are to be there. Ginger1 is right, not all leaders within this ministry are wolves because there are many who are in love with God but are just genuinly deceived about the "head of this ministry" or may feel trapped b/c they don't know the Word of God so they don't know what to do; However, what's in the head flows down and that's why there are alot of ministries that are apart of En that end up being corrupt and abusive. Lastly, remeber, 2 timothy 3 in the last days men will lovers of themselves and money, ect having a form of godliness but denying it's power from such turn away. This scripture described my leaders in EN xactly and the many young ones being descipled by them ended up becoming just like those leaders. The enemy works very subtle within this group so be careful. We know there is a spirit of jezebel in the head which manifest control which is witchcraft. That's demonic. Lastly, timothy mentions how some will leave the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons which is comprised of a doctrine of truth and error. We know from Jesus' last warnings in revelation that he warned those who would add or delete to his word and He would refuse them to eat from the tree of life. Truth and error is still part of the tree of knowledge which operates inside this body, again You will know them by their fruits-character look at character is Your pastor willing to lay down his life for you or is he telling You that You need to do that for Him because he is closer to God then you are? My leaders believed they were closer to God but yet the Word of God tells me this house operates under the doctrine of the Nicholaitans which Jesus cursed-they were a false sect that used truth and error to deceive people. Be careful and test the spirits. Rd John about testing the spirits and again look at the fruit

[jesusisawesome]

Hi Sudarat, welcome to the board. You are very wise to ask questions. I wish that I had asked more questions, instead of blindly absorbing what was taught. It would have saved me a lot of heartache down the road. There is a lot of wonderful insight and feedback offered above.

Personal stories are very valid. You will find first-hand stories scattered all over these threads, from the very beginnings of this ministry (MCM) to the current form (EN). You will find both the "subjective" and "objective" posted over these threads, which are the actual life experiences and also lessons learned of what Christians seeking to love and follow Christ have walked through.

We welcome you in your search and hunger for the truth. According to the scriptures, we are to test everything and hold fast to that which is good. Test everything that you are learning. Compare it against scripture, and then draw your own conclusions.

[robert_unknown]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>



1. Personality-centered
2. Uniform clothings and behaviours
3. One Bible translation only like the King James Proponent churches.
4. Shepherding-movement that micro-manages ones life to the point of making final decision for his followers.
5. Authoritarianism which means one cannot correct the wrong doctrine of the pastor.

I have not found these latter practices among the Every Nation Churches and Victory Christian Fellowship churches.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>


Dear Justyn

I have wittnesed a conversation between on of the leaders of EN, who is responsable for the churches and the churchdevelopement at the moment (dont post his name, you might know whom i mean) and concerned brothers recently.

He has AGREED that the things (point 1, 4 and 5) you said, and that i have used in the quotation above, ARE a problem and a reason for concern in EN.

He said also, that EN is building checks and balances to avoid those things in the future, and that EN has restructured, so that these things may not occur in the future.

I have done my personal research about the ROOTS of EN which are strongly and deeply in NOLR (through their past in MCM and by their affiliation to C.Peter Wagner and NAR). The man i am mentioning agreed also on these things. i shared the results of my research here: http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/25682.html?1165131636

So my conclusion is this: As long as the main leaders in EN hold their views about certain things, there will not be any reform.

EN is rooted in false NOLR doctrine, and because of this EN is sociologicaly problematic. It is because of their false understanding of church and churchgouvernment, that EN experiences the things that you mentioned above.

[sudarat]

Hello All

My opinion is
1. Forget about EN church history My pastor he accept that MCM are cult They used to be a cult

but nowaday EN has restructured They dont try to control over a member ...There are no strick law in EN church ...They dont mind if you attend another church...There are no lovebomb,brainwash in this church...one-on-one are just a good opportunity to share &amp;discuss the BB for disciple

You can feel free to do whatever you want Praise God !!!


Jesus Christ changes lives. He can change an organization, too. This is the story of how the Lord changed the Everynation church from an unorthodox church on the fringes of Christianity, into an evangelical church that believes and teaches orthodox doctrines


2.Forgive and forget them Love and pray for them

Actually ENLI in thailand will open on FEB next year I have 2 month for consider I will pray and keep reading......

[matt_hatter]

Sounds like you had a meeting with the pastor...but keep on guard.

[sudarat]

Yes I have been one-on -one with pastor on every week I have meet with him at cell group He try hard to make friend and brainwash me <i> Yes he is a very friendly man


But about EN information in this forum make me concern and very careful to make relation with pastor and friend in EN church

[out_of_hiding]

Sudurat: hello. I just started posting on this site recently, but I have been reading it for over 3 years. I too was a member of EN (MSI). I was saved in June 2002. I didn't see any of the things these people were talking about until I began to be pushed into leadership. Also, people just started disappearing from my church for being "disobediant and rebellious." One day they were at church, the next they were not. We were discouraged from asking any questions. I assure you, there are people in EN who love Jesus with their whole heart, and have the best intentions, but there is a problem. Your pastor's advice "forgive and forget them Love and pray for them." I was told the same thing. But, I can assure you, there are problems with the "family" as a whole. If there wasn't, why would SO MANY people be leaving (i.e. one of the most important U.S. pastors, Ray McCollum) and why would so many people be speaking out. No, it is not Satan sowing strife. If this was not a "church" but was a business, and so many people were claiming the business controlled them and stole from them, would you use that business? This is the same thing. If there was no reason for concern, there would not be this much controversy. I encourage you to pray about this and search your heart and bible for answers. God will speak to you!!!!

[dust]

Sudarat

I completed two-years of ENLI. Here is what I would say to anyone considering a Christian Leadership Program.

1. Know the bible FIRST. If you are well versed in the Word of God, you will have the foundation you need to discern the truth.

2. If you are a new Christian and not very well versed, please remember that the ENLI is geared to get you involved in their vision for their purposes. They do a very light dusting of the bible, and your time would be best spent getting a good foundation.

AFTER we paid the money, did the homework, attended the classes for two years, we realized we were taught dangerous principles.

Here is a discussion we had about ENLI (called VLI then) back in January that you may wish to consider.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/16532.html?1136771716

I pray for you to seek God's will and be blessed.

[robert_unknown]

Sudarat,
the things your pastor told you is part of the new damage controle strategy of EN. The pastors have met each other in Manila and London recently, and comunicate the same words (actually word by word) everywhere!
My concern is NOT that EN WANTS to reform. My concern is that they WILL NOT BE ABLE to reform, as long as they stick to their NAR ideas. PLease read the thread, that I have posted above.

I wittness FIRST hand, that EN is STILL treating people ill. people who do NOT agree on what they say about them reforming are getting cast out of church here in Europe! People who have been in ministry many years, and share their concerns are getting quited and the pastors say "consider wether this is the pplace for you or not".

Reform also changes the attitude of leadership towards people. also to "difficult people" and to people who are not 100% in line with them.

I cannot see a reform here.

But you decide by yourself! Keep your eyes open!

[ginger1]

Sudarat, all I can say is that keep your eyes open. Discern. As I said before, there are good churches and bad churches. But it is a chance that you have to take. There are churches in VCF and EN that DO ACT like CULT. Even the top leadership act like CULT. And there are some that do not.

As long as there is transparency, then you are in good position. Its true about EN's history. And while I was there, time and time again they all told me that Maranatha is history. Its over , they are not controlling nore religous any longer. And yet if one did not learn from their history, it is DOOMED TO REPEAT IT. And that just exactly what happened.

The Bible is full of history and the people of Israel were to study their past history, they were reminded of their past sins and mistakes so they won't forget.

To say forget about EN history, then there is a danger of repeating it.

[the_west_here_i_come]

Another good thing to review is that if EN admits to maranatha mistakes then the Bible tells us how to discipline the leaders and ask them if they had ever done that? Ask your leaders how long those Board of director leaders have been in training until the Holy spirit told them that they were called to be where they are today? They can't truelly answer that because Holy spirit never sent them! Look at the fruit of the ministry; if there is not fruit then you are in a dead ministry also known as a dark ministry scary!

[lc_20]

West, Did you get out?

[the_west_here_i_come]

of course but two years was enough

[sudarat]

Two year was enough ! I have been a member just 3 month and I am a young man Let me to play with fire till Feb next year ....

[ginger1]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif Go and play with fire, remember we did warn you .

[40days40years]

At least he has set a date, if he misses that one he can grab on to another one. He is not in the mindset: this is where God has placed me you don't have to question it.

[40days40years]

sudarat, oh man I hope I have not been played again. 3 months and you have all this insight?

Everybody read this thing from the start all over again.

On with your mission Sudarat, God Bless You and thanks for posting.

(Message edited by 40days40years on December 09, 2006)

[lc_20]

Sudarat,
My advice... be careful of your finances while you are playing with this fire. Don't get involved with any financial pledges that will make you feel obligated to "God" in their environment. Be very careful!

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

sudarat: Two year was enough ! I have been a member just 3 month and I am a young man Let me to play with fire till Feb next year ....<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>No offense, but what's that saying often attributed to P. T. Barnum (http://www.historybuff.com/library/refbarnum.html)?

[dust]

Sudarat,
You are here asking questions. Let that be respected. Leaving can be a process. It took us about a year. God be with you, and bless you, and there should be no shame, or guilt for what you decide or what your personal time frame is.

Part of leaving a ministry like EN is sifting through information, emotions, loyalties, what scripture says, what the Spirit speaks to you, relationships, experiences. EN is very seductive and there will be some good things you will learn. I have faith that as Jesus is your Savior, God will be soveriegn in your life.

The thing for any Christian young man to look out for is not necessarily how crooked is this ministry, but what you are becoming being there. EN has a way of growing pride in young people, puffing them up in a "winner/loser" mentality. So, friend, if you stay a few more months, protect your own heart and soul from becoming like them.

We are in a different church now and it's wonderful to freely worship the Lord as ourselves without show or works or proving ourself as worthy. My pastor says, "be careful of thinking you are the light in a dark place. Let GOD be the light." We humans and our pride are so easily tempted. Count me in for that. I need to do all I can to not puff myself up. And it took us about 18 months to scrub off that thinking.

[sameo]

BY the time Feb comes you won't be able to say you are "playing with fire" because that is considered a negative confession.(in other words you won't have freedom of speech) I hope you won't have bought into the "total committment" which means totally committed to the "group" as well as to God.(in their eyes/opinion) And watch out they will use those kinds of 'sayings' to manipulate you into staying. And may say things like "if you leave you will be in rebellion to God...which is as the sin of witchcraft."

[mdillon]

what kid doesn't like to play with fire? mine always did and somehow the lesson never 'took' until something or somebody got burned. luckily the pain was minute, but a friend of mine burned several hundred acres down when he was a kid because he was playing with fire.

good luck, sudarat

dilly

[lablady2]

Sudarat: Well, boy, you won't be able to say that you didn't know it was a snake when you picked it up.

Leaving is the only anti-venom.

[ulyankee]

Amen to what dust said. I would add, be especially careful to guard your heart if you plan on attending ENLI between now and February. One of the other ways that VCF and the Asian branch of the church is different from other places, particularly the US, is that members are made to feel like they're missing out on something if they don't go through ENLI, don't go to small groups, don't participate in all the activities and training the church offers. So they don't necessarily feel guilty, but feel like they're missing out and want to go. This is INTENTIONAL and Steve Murrell has stated this verbatim in EN pastoral training materials available for sale from EN's website.

Much of this training involves paying money btw, on top of tithing, especially ENLI.

If you are a new Christian, I would recommend getting a Bible and reading some of it on your own, not just along with EN booklets. Pick a Gospel, and then maybe Acts. What I did as a new Christian is read right through John and then Acts since they're in order. Hopefully you have a Bible or can get one in your native language which will help you understand more. And keep asking questions. The Holy Spirit will guide you, will make you hungry and thirsty for His Word and direction so that you can follow Jesus rather than just following someone or something else.

Remember one thing. Jesus Christ alone is the Head of the church. No one else. You aren't your pastor's disciple (I noticed you said something like that in one of your posts). You are a disciple of Jesus. Follow Him. I pray that you keep that in your heart and remember it no matter what.

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on December 09, 2006)

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Sudarat,
I wish you he best but if you are waiting and hoping that someone will come with you when you leave; they may not come, and then you may not be as free to go. I know that you want to be someone in Christ, but few get to the pastors with a lovely house and wife. Keep your eyes open. All that glitters is not gold. We already are someone in Him. That is all that counts.}

[the_west_here_i_come]

sudarat read my previous posts about the scriptures and go back and study the Word. My people perish for a lack of knowledge. These leaders want you to be code dependent upon them so they can feed you thier truth, not the truth. For example, a girl I lived with said to me one time that there was no error in EN but all other churches had error but EN was perfect. Do you understand how satanic this statement is and its so far from the truth. This is the spirit of the anti christ and yet it's in EN ministry. They operate under the doctrine fo the nicholaitans that says you have to get to God through your leadership. The only mediator we have is Jesus christ himself anyone who attempts to be a mediator between us and the Lord is deceived and you need to stay away. I remember when i tried to talk to these leaders about the error I discerned and they refused to listen because they are a haughty and prideful people and they use fear as a motivator but we know that perfect love cast out all fear. They go after weak people and want to rape you spiritually, emotionally and financially. These head leaders are male jezebels, they refuse to submit to authority but they want everyone to submit to them. In 2003 I had a dream of some people particularly one girl that i knew from EN and they were on a bttlefield and they were fighting defending someone and this someone walked towards those who were defending him and I stood there and was watching thsi person walk real crafty and he was walking and his face had the face of a wolf but I could also make out his natural face and guess who it was ? Rice Broocks Wolves in the bible represent the demonic and witchcraft which definately operates inside this church. I remember a prophesy that God gave to me to pray for someone right as I was leaving EN and I remember that thsi prophecy was ongoing and one day the Lord told me to pray that He exposes the lies of the enemy and I knew who he was referring to; EN! Here's the key I don't care who En knows and how good they think thye are because ultimately it comes down to what the Lord sees from his perspective which is nothing but truth and to be frank with You it's not good at all what eh has to stay about your ministry!

[ulyankee]

the west, wow, the statement that girl said is also CULTIC. Cults believe they have the corner on the truth, and that THEY are perfect churches without error. Every Nation believes that IT has the mandate to go to the nations and then God will give THEM the nations to rule and reign. Not just the church in general, but Every Nation will LITERALLY rule and reign over nations. That's why they are called Every Nation. This is taken from things they have said, including recently, and is not made up or exaggerated. This is scary stuff and thanks for posting your dreams and testimony.

[mdillon]

sameo-And watch out they will use those kinds of 'sayings' to manipulate you into staying. And may say things like "if you leave you will be in rebellion to God...which is as the sin of witchcraft."

west-These head leaders are male jezebels, they refuse to submit to authority but they want everyone to submit to them.

i was getting ready to post a comment to sameo's line when west took the words right out of my mouth. anyone that serves under them must be emasculated, i.e., subservient to their whims and visions and not allowed to question authority. those that have been accusing the 'non-conformists' of witchcraft are the true perpetrators of such. smoke and mirrors, folks, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

dilly

[the_west_here_i_come]

EN's mission is completely based upon the doctrine of balaam which God confirmed to me in rev 2 about the pergamos church regarding a prophecy he had given to me before I left EN. It's interesting because Balaam is mentioned in peter who loved the wages of unrighteouness and were the type of people who beguile unstable souls or in other words like to seduce people. What's interesting in this passage is that it states thier latter will be worse than thier former and it would have been better for them not to have known the way of truth and then turn from it. This turning is mentioned in in Jude where there are leaders who only feed themselves and end up being twice dead. Twice dead means to be in rebellion and yet in Peter it describes them to have known the way of righteouness but turned from it which is rebellion again! Other scriptures to study Isaiah 65 and 30 (whole chapters) and also 57 (first few scriptures) (up to the part where he accuses the whore, sorceress ect as a seed of falsehood). 57 speaks of the same prophecy (i think) that the Lord gave me before I had left that relates to Revelation 2 about pergamos. Just the title of this church, the compromising church speaks of EN exactly; its a doctrine of compromise that enabled people to be married to the world and we know that anyone who is married to the world is an enemy of god which explains why when the Lord told me to pray that he exposes the lies of the enemy he was reffering to EN because they are of the world; no wonder those people in that ministry don't like us!

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi West, sameo and Dilly, Ul ,
Well said thank you indeed!!}

[justyn_m]

From: "Sudarat"

Hello All. My opinion is
1. Forget about EN church history My pastor he accept that MCM are cult They used to be a cult but nowaday EN has restructured They dont try to control over a member ...There are no strick law in EN church ...They dont mind if you attend another church...There are no lovebomb,brainwash in this church...one-on-one are just a good opportunity to share &amp;discuss the BB for disciple

You can feel free to do whatever you want Praise God !!!

Jesus Christ changes lives. He can change an organization, too. This is the story of how the Lord changed the Everynation church from an unorthodox church on the fringes of Christianity, into an evangelical church that believes and teaches orthodox doctrines

2.Forgive and forget them Love and pray for them.

Actually ENLI in Thailand will open on February next year I have 2 months for consider. I will pray and keep reading......

===================================

<font color="0000ff">Good thinking, Sudarat! Do not listen to some subjective and critical voices here. Remember, even Peter erred when he denied Christ and yet he was given the chance to prove himself because of his love for the Savior. Today, the Every Nation family of churches is continually growing around the world. They are side-by-side with other Christian churches in reaching the lost. I hope, our friends here will finally realized that there is more to crying over spilled milk. If they don't feel like coming back to Every Nation churches then thats their prerogative. I suggest they join other local churches and be active so that when the day comes, God can still say to them, "Well done good and faithful servant."

You will learn a lot from their ENLI. God bless in your decision.</font>

(Message edited by justyn_m on December 10, 2006)

[sameo]

justyn_m:"I hope, our friends here will finally realized that there is more to crying over spilled milk."


HI Justyn, I am appalled that you would find hurt lives, wounded &amp; spiritually abused people, as merely "crying over spilled milk."

Spoken like a true MCM/ENer.

[speakword2004]

Justyn_M uses a typical ploy in suggesting very slyly that if you deny EN you are denying Christ. Follow Jesus, but not Justyn. Justyn is employed by EN and is just a sychophant.

[sudarat]

Hello All

It seem like EN thailand Pastor know about my question in this forum On sunday service he call me to one-on-one and talked in topic " EN are not Cult " and he try to explain about why he can live like a millionare in Thailand

Of course He talked about EN history He said that " MCM are very good church All thing in MCM is very good The only problem of MCM is about iron law and control over member

Steve Murrel decided to leave form this group and found The morning Star International

Actually in EN history book he will say " EN church was establish in .......

They reject the history about MCM and try to avoid to talk about

Maybe I know too much about EN ch As we know "Curiosity killed the cat" I think my pastor try to ask me about

"why you know about our history "
"how you know about our history "

Very sensitive to talk about Church history topic and

I feel like something abnormal happen about me I think my pastor starting to jealous/ suspiciously about my question and He very serious when he have talk with me

and EN member try to avoid /shun to talk with me and make me alone in Sunday church service because I been asking the question too much about EN church

I think he will kick me out form his church very soooooon because I been asking too much about EN church

[osakadan]

Sudarat, if it is a problem to ask questions......

I think you have your answer already.

[lc_20]

Sudarat,
Sorry you got the standard treatment. I am sure that hurt. I had many meetings like that. You have "touched God's annointed". One thing I have learned, is this kind of perceived rebellion against "the authority God put over you" is never forgiven. They will never trust you as a leader now. But, don't worry. After I experienced this treatment, I saw a side of God I had never seen before... vengence is mine says the Lord.

[mcmstaff78]

Sudarat,

Your pastor's reaction to you demonstrates the innate insecurity that is felt being a "leader" in an illegitimate "church" - i.e. one founded by self-appointed men making up their rules and doctrine as they go. If there wasn't anything wrong, why would they get nervous at a light being shone on their origins?

And the whole "millionaire" thing is a big problem, IMO. When you are asking people to give "sacrificially", but you're living like a "king's kid", you are a hypocrite, plain and simple. "Sacrifice" means it hurts, it costs, it deprives you of something. Jesus certainly knew about this type of thing when He pointedly compared the widow giving her two mites with the rich synagogue rulers giving their offerings.

God is gracious to us when we are sincerely seeking Him, even when sometimes things seem to happen that are "bad". I know you may not believe it, but getting kicked out of EN would be the best thing that could happen to you.

[speakword2004]

Sudarat

As a person who has taught discipleship class to new believers I feel that it is vital to teach the Christian basics first before attempting to disciple a person towards membership of a church.

The history of both MCM and EN is an ectremely sensitive issue. Many peoppe as yet do not agree about the history of the churches and as such take different sides. Some feel that MCM and EN have been poorly depicted and others just do not know all the facts at hand.

Perhaps he is afraid that all these questions will frighten you either away from a Faith in Jesus Christ or cause people beyond yourself to be concerned about joining EN.

If you have encountered the real Jesus Christ and received the assurance of eternal salvation that comes through the knowledge of Christ then you will not be afraid and know that Jesus will keep you to Him regardless of church affiliation.

Unfortunately, not much of the truth has been told to people, perhaps even including your pastor, about MCM or the problems in EN. I agree that there are many honest and sincere leaders and members of EN out there who love the Lord Jesus and truely desire to serve Him, but are also somewhat in darkness as to the dysfunctions of EN internationally or in some local churches where abuses and false teachings may continue.

Your pastor is perhaps afraid that your questions will frighten other people and make them want to ask questions that he either is afraid of or can not handle as a pastor. Ask him and others to not be afriad of you and your questions as your motivation is one of wanting to learn and understand. Also ask other people not to shun you as you are their Christian brother.

[speakword2004]

Perhaps it is a misunderstanding on your pastor's part but Steve Murrell did not decide to leave MCM. MCM was disolved in 1989. His church in Manilla was planted by MCM. His fellow leaders of EN including Phil Bonasso and Rice Broocks were also in MCM.

Bill Bennot - Africa Ministry Team leader founded Maranatha Church in Africa
Roger4 Pearce-Maranatha Church Africa member of the International policy council
Joe Martin- US IMT member also former MCM pastor
Franco Gennaro- S America IMT leader also MCM pastor
Jon Rohrer-Prophetic rep, to IMT also MCM pastor
At large members Rice Broocks (USA)
Steve Murrell (Philippines)
Sam Webb (USA)also MCM
Ken Dew- Pacific IMT leader also MCM evangelist etc.
As you can see much of the leadership is

[speakword2004]

This is from the EN website:

Q: I have read accusations on some online discussion forums that Every Nation is a continuation of Maranatha Campus Ministries, is this true?


This is false. While several Every Nation pastors, including Rice Broocks, Phil Bonasso and Steve Murrell, were active as campus ministers in Maranatha (a campus ministry founded by Bob Weiner) in the 1980’s, Every Nation unequivocally rejects the excessive teachings and practices that were present in Maranatha, specifically: controlling discipleship, authoritarian leadership, and theological mysticism.

Rice, Phil and Steve fully supported the dissolution of Maranatha in 1989, after which the majority of its churches changed their names and continued to function as local churches. Some joined Vineyard, Foursquare Gospel, or a variety of other denominations and networks. Others merged with local churches, dissolved or became independent. Today there are over 400 Every Nation churches worldwide, of which less than 15 (or less than 4%) were formerly Maranatha churches

[speakword2004]

NOTE THE ABOVE FROM THE EN WEBSITE:

The use of the word "accusation" rather than "claim" or "arguement".

The question is framed this way to use the context of religious language such as "satan is the accuser of the brethren" etc.

By inference any criticism of the church is highlighted as "accusations". As such accusations against the church come from satan or the enemy. This is typical religious reactionary language as has little to do with the unity of the brethren and more to do with getting a certain bias forward.

Maybe this is why your pastor has reacted rather than respond to your queries. He has been discipled or conditioned by his environment to react to any questioning or criticism as accusations of the enemy. The wagons are quickly circled especially in the more beleaguered sectors of EN that have a history of abusiveness or something to hide.



(Message edited by speakword2004 on December 11, 2006)

[robert_unknown]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

" MCM are very good church All thing in MCM is very good The only problem of MCM is about iron law and control over member <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

isnt it funny? one part of the guys agrees that EN was close to a cult, very problematic and they even agree, that the present problems in EN are rooted in MCM, which is bad (i heared this PERSONALLY out of the mouth of Kevin York!)...

and your pastor tells you everthing in MCM was ok, besides the law and the controle...?

i am getting confused now...

[japinoy]

Speak word, you mentioned about Sam Webb. He is the leader of Grace Bible Church Hawaii right?

If so, how did you know that he was in Maranatha Church before? When was this?

The reason Im asking is because I use to go to Grace Bible in Yokohama, Japan.

By the way, sudarat, what you're experiencing is exactly what we all have experienced. Even to me here in Japan at a ENI church.
ENI practice a doctrine called "Prosperity Gospel". It teaches that the more you give money (tithes &amp; offerings) to church/pastor, the more God will bless you financially. And also they teach that it is God's will for all Christians to be healthy and finacially rich/prosperous.

Prosperity Gospel is a false gospel and is not biblical but is a deception from satan to have man focus on treasures on earth instead of heavenly spiritual treasures from God. Research about it and you will see a lot of confirmation in the Web and in books on what Im saying.

[sudarat]

Hello All

Thank a lot everyone for your advise , warning and good information about EN

First of all I never seen a sign of cult in this church Maybe I am just a new member of this church and just sitting and listening on sunday church service


The second I spend much more time and try to google search about EN form many website and form your warning about EN church


...OK I would like to say that I say "Good Bye " with EN thailand church already and I will attend another church on sunday and will not turn back to EN anymore

The Last....

However As I have a good time in EN church for 3 month I am still have positive thinking about them I dont have a good reason to hate them and I will pray for this church

A million thank everyone for your warning .....

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi Sudarat,
Thank you for posting here, we all hoped as you do that En would be better. I pray for them also.}

[japinoy]

sudarat,

Praying for them so that God may convict them is very important. Im still praying for my brother who still goes to ENI church so that his eyes may be opened. This will be a sign for us that we dont hate people but hate sin.

When I was in EN church in japan, all I had was good time in fellowship, good time in singing, playing instruments but didnt had peace because they teach a false gospel.

I believe leaving a church that preaches false teachings is a wise choice because you can have a chance to hear sound doctrine in other churches. Just make sure the church you go next time is a church that preaches Christ centered gospel and not a gospel that only uses Christ to achieve their own plans and desires.

God bless you and may He guide your life.

[mdillon]

sudarat-will not turn back to EN anymore

glad to hear it sudarat

coppertree, hope your surgery went well today?

dilly

[wildwood_]

Greetings...just want to pass along best wishes and prayers for Sudarat as you move forward and transition into another Church. It must be a burden lifted from your heart to leave in peace and seek in Joy and not out of pain to worship elsewhere; thank you for sharing how you struggled and sought these answers for your life. It may help others seek also (at least to re-check which is always a good thing to do wherever we are) who will never have the opportunity to say so for themselves to you...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif God Bless You in your new Home...

And Coppertree...Prayers for a swift recovery from whatever you are recovering from http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif Hope there's some wonderful programing on TV to distract your mind if you have to hang around the the house for a day or so... Or maybe you will be on the board (I should be packing but I'm trying to pretend we aren't moving in...ah...21 days...plenty of time...to do Christmas Shopping too...hope yours is done already).

Hi Dilly out causing trouble yet...all your tools put away or missing any lately ??? &amp; Japinoy...haven't seen you in a bit...nice to see you back around. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[japinoy]

Nice to see you too wildwood http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/talker.gif
Merry Christmas to you all!

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi all
Best wishes and Merry Christmas to you- Japinoy !!
I thank you for your posts and prayers. }

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi Surarat,
I hope you have a Merry Christmas ,and keep posting, let us know how you are.}