Godbs Judgement conbt

[lablady2]

I started this thread only to add a comment to J2's post on another thread. In deference to Matt's request, I don't wish to post on that thread. I will paste J2's original comment (hope that's okay with you J2) below so my comment following this paragraph will make sense and because I think her post bears repeating.

I think I've made my position clear about how I view God's judgement. Short and sweet, I don't think He punishes people by sending death and illness to them or their children. I think sin has its natural consequences, and if that's not good enough for you, well, then there's always death, judgement and burning eternally in hell.

The term "pc" (political correctness) is used by some on factnet to accuse people of being soft on sin, compromisers, liberal and leftist (where have I heard these terms before?). The fact is that sometimes love, mercy and tolerance are just correct, having nothing to do with politics at all.

J2's post to follow.

[lablady2]

J2 wrote:

quote:
40/40: Calling the chits in Hatter? See the ironic thing is that if your friends do not respond then that kind of establishes the fact that you are the leader (irony). Whatever you should be proud because your highly respected here.

Just because a person is respected by a group of people does not mean they are the leader of that group of people. And if his friends refuse to post here, it does not, in any way, prove that he is their leader. The most one could infer would be that his friends care about him enough to respect his wishes in regards to a discussion thread he finds personally embarassing.

For what it's worth, I have never felt like Matt or anyone else is the leader of this discussion forum. On occassion, I felt like PhilipRosenthal tried to take on that role, but he was never successful and now he doesn't even post here very often.

(cont. below)

[lablady2]

j2theperson
Advanced Member
Username: j2theperson

Post Number: 554
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.129.139.177
Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 2:24 pm:

quote:
Ginger: The problem is that EN go to the extreme right so people tend to go to the extreme left. Instead of looking at what the bible say and find the balance of it.
Judgement and Cursed are two different thing.

I have been following and posting in the thread in which the subject of God's judgement came up, and I think you are mischaracterizing the other people's opinions as being "to the extreme left". I don't remember anyone actually disagreeing that God can judge humans. Rather, some posters did not agree with your belief that God would punish the children of a wrongdoer as opposed to punishing the wrongdoer himself. Some posters also were not convinced that the illnesses and deaths you believe were God's judgement on EN leaders were, in fact, caused by God and not by some purely natural source.

I don't think it is right for you to mischaracterize other people's opinions when they don't agree with you. The truth of the matter is, the posters who disagreed with you have not swung "to the extreme left" since they left EN. I think I could be considered a conservative liberatarian. If I recall correctly, LabLady once characterized herself as a Republitarian. I don't know exactly what Dust's or Sameo's beliefs are, but neither of them come across as being particularly liberal or unorthodox. Under no circumstances could we be considered "to the extreme left", and again I must say I think it was wrong for you to characterize us as such.

quote:
Ginger: Here is another thing to think about. To say that God does not send His judgement any longer is not true.
John 3:16. For God so loved the world that He is willing and able to Send His ONLY Son...
If God can and willing to Send His ONLY Son , whom God love so much to the cross what makes us think that He is NOT willing to sacrifice us for His Purposes ?

I think you're taking this verse completely out of context and twisting it to prove what you want it to prove.

Interestingly enough, although John 3:16 doesn't say anything about "judgement", John 3:17-21 talks about it quite a bit:

quote:
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

I take away from that passage that men are judged as individuals and they are judged by their own individual choices. Also, I don't know anything about the original language this passage was written in, but reading it now in English, it seems to me that the judgement is a passive judgement--God is not actively striking down those who reject him, rather the men who reject Him are simply experiences the result of their own bad choice. The most God seems to do is show that their choices are bad. Nowhere in this passage do I see anything that could even remotely make me think that God would strike down an innocent child simply because the parent was ungodly.

[ginger1]

lablady, what I am trying to say is this. What happened in VCF is one of the rarest form of judgement I have ever seen. I do not believe God would punish the children simply because of ungodly parents. And this type of judgement was only to get the VCF corporate attention. This is not because it is directly an attack to the parents because they are ungodly. It is by far from it.
Though the Egyptians, their firstborn was killed, was it because the egyptian parents sinned ? God was trying to get the attention of Pharaoh. That He is God and He cannot be mocked. I strongly believe even in the time of Moses, those Egyptians were already in fear of what God can do. But because of the Hard heartness of Pharaoh , those people got affected.
I see VCF in the same way. The VCF corporate has hardened their hearts that it affect those Senior Pastor kids.
But again this is just my opinion.

[maranatha1984]

Lab:Just because a person is respected by a group of people does not mean they are the leader of that group of people. And if his friends refuse to post here, it does not, in any way, prove that he is their leader. The most one could infer would be that his friends care about him enough to respect his wishes in regards to a discussion thread he finds personally embarassing.

Tikie: Matt is my blood brother of 28 years and that is that. So I honor my friend's wish. Where 40/40 is coming from I do not know. I find his posts here of late on FACT I mean mystifying to say the least

[j2theperson]

I don't think you can compare what happened to the Egyptians to what happened to the VCF leaders. In the case of the Egyptians, many signs came before the deaths of the firstborn. God clearly warned them before he killed the firstborn, and He gave them a way to protect their children (i.e. by putting the lamb's blood on their doorpost).

None of that seems to have happened in the case of the VCF leaders. There was no clear and public warning prior to the deaths and illnesses of their children. There were no signs that came beforehand. And God did not provide them a way to avert tragedy.

Also, in the case of the Egyptians, all the children died in the same way on the same night, but in the case of the VCF leaders some children died, some simply got sick, all suffered from different maladies and all were hurt at different times.

I would also like to see the actual numbers...how many senior EN pastors were there in the Philipeans at that time? How many of them had children who died or suffered life-threatening illnesses? What were the dates these deaths and illnesses occured? Were the children all previously healthy, or were some chronically ill?

And I would like to know why Steve Murell wasn't affected. He was living in the Philipeans and, not only was he a senior pastor, he was also one of the heads of all of EN. If God really was judging these men, Steve Murell ought to have been affected, but, from what I understand, he was not.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but you are claiming this judgement was only brought down upon the pastors in the Philipeans, right?

[lablady2]

Ginger, I understand what you are trying to say. As I have said before, I can agree to disagree and I enjoy having discussions on all kinds of issues as long as things are civil, and I think we've done that. So, it's all good as far as I'm concerned.

Also, I was trying in part to move the discussion off of that particular thread. If this ends the discussion, that's fine by me.

[ginger1]

Acts 1: 7He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

This is a fact in history, The Israelites were already comfortable having a revival in jerusalem that a lot of them refused to leave jerusalem. Jesus told them that they will be witness to JUDEA and SAMARIA. So for that to happen, God send His judgement to the christians, so that His purposes would be fulfilled.

Then there is couple of instances also in the Old testament.
There was a time when God send His judgement, a Plague. People were dying, children were dying also , Moses did everything he can, Pray, sacrifice animals, intercede etc. But its not working. The plague was spreading fast, people were dying. Then Phinehas took his spear and went through the camp and and put a spear through a man and a pagan woman. Why ? God said they were not supposed to be sleeping with pagans.
Then the Plague stop.
God's judgement can affect innocent people.

[ginger1]

There was another instance in the time of Jericho. The israelites were losing in battle. The Lord told them not to take any loot. So they stop the battle for a while and try to figure out why they were losing. They found out that one of the soldier have hidden some loot.
The other soliders were dead but not this particular soldier. Once they had the soldier killed, they won the battle. Sometimes, God will not tell you why , like the Egytptian, no warning, you just have to figure it why God .
And as I said, He is the same, yesterday, today and forever. He does not change.

In regards with VCF, I hope you guys are not upset with me. As I said, thats just my opinion and what I believe in. I am not forcing this issue on anybody else.

Lablady I still do enjoy this conversation. It does make me think and look at God in a different point of view.

[ginger1]

J2, I was told that one of the kid just died of fever , overnight. The other meningitis. Another one seizure. Just like that. One was playing basketball, then fell, the head was hit on the concrete. Was hospitalized for 2 months. All of them sudden , I do not know the specific numbers of these kids. But its all on the head. All of them sudden death. All of them were healthy the next they are gone. I do not know the dates, Just in 2004. Thats all I can recall, I really do not know all the specifics of how man kids and dates.

I do not know why Steve Murrell son was not affected, but I do know his firstborn son is a kind and gentle kid. Who loves God. I believe he was here in america, in college when that happened.

[ginger1]

Let me also add in the book of Acts, after the Lord send His judgement to the Christians in jerusalem, the Gospel finally was spread to Samaria and Judea.

this is my belief, God is able and willing to sacrifice us his children for His purposes. And as I said, if He is willing to do that to His Son, how much more us ?

And as I said, this is just my belief.

Ok guys, I wont be posting till tomorrow. We are going to the movies. LOL !

[lablady2]

You will be missed! Have fun.

[ginger1]

One of the things VCF and EN does not understand is this. I do not care how much they intercede, claim Jesus blood etc. Walk around the city or the church. Unless things are corrected, God will continue to send his judgement.

Example in regards to Moses who kept sacrificing and praying, and God did not answer his prayers.

Second scripture. Will be Jonah.
But the LORD sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken.

5Then the mariners were afraid, and cried every man unto his god, and cast forth the wares that were in the ship into the sea, to lighten it of them. But Jonah was gone down into the sides of the ship; and he lay, and was fast asleep.

Innocent people get affected. Unless things get corrected, Judgement won't stop.


Then said they unto him, What shall we do unto thee, that the sea may be calm unto us? for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous.

12And he said unto them, Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you.

13Nevertheless the men rowed hard to bring it to the land; but they could not: for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous against them.

14Wherefore they cried unto the LORD, and said, We beseech thee, O LORD, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O LORD, hast done as it pleased thee.

15So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.

=====
As I said before, sometimes judgement is for correction. And God can do it harshly. It only stop when it gets corrected. And sometimes its to get our attention.

If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will HEAL their land.

There is Healing after Judgement. It is sometimes a blessings in disguise which I welcome in my life. It cause me to repent and correct my life.

After I left EN, I became a softie at one point and I found out the hard way that it does not work for me spiritually. let say, it cost me and I learned my lesson. I had to re-arrange my belief again. Try to find the middle ground. Rebalance it all over again.

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Ginger: J2, I was told that one of the kid just died of fever , overnight. The other meningitis. Another one seizure. Just like that. One was playing basketball, then fell, the head was hit on the concrete. Was hospitalized for 2 months. All of them sudden , I do not know the specific numbers of these kids. But its all on the head. All of them sudden death. All of them were healthy the next they are gone. I do not know the dates, Just in 2004. Thats all I can recall, I really do not know all the specifics of how man kids and dates.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I went to EN's website and looked up the number of churches currently in the Philipines. If I counted correctly, there are 38. I don't know how many were there in 2004, but that was only 2 years ago so I'm assuming the organization hasn't grown that much.

If there are 38 churches there are 38 senior pastors. 3 children died, and 1 child was seriously injured. In effect, that means 4 children suffered the wrath of God but 34 children didn't. Now, if the numbers were the other way around, I might step back and give your belief a second look, but there's nothing particularly out of the ordinary about 3 children out of 38 families dying, and there's certainly nothing supernatural about a boy hurting himself while playing sports.
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Ginger: I do not know why Steve Murrell son was not affected, but I do know his firstborn son is a kind and gentle kid. Who loves God. I believe he was here in america, in college when that happened.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
If, as you are claiming, God really does punish a parent by harming that parent's child then the fact that Steve Murrell's son is kind, gentle, and godly should be irrelevent. If you want to be consistent, then all that should matter is that Steve Murrell is the head of an ungodly organization whose leaders God has decided to judge by harming their children.

(Message edited by j2theperson on December 11, 2006)

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Ginger: This is a fact in history, The Israelites were already comfortable having a revival in jerusalem that a lot of them refused to leave jerusalem. Jesus told them that they will be witness to JUDEA and SAMARIA. So for that to happen, God send His judgement to the christians, so that His purposes would be fulfilled.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I would like to see the evidence which supports this "fact".
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Ginger: There was a time when God send His judgement, a Plague. People were dying, children were dying also , Moses did everything he can, Pray, sacrifice animals, intercede etc. But its not working. The plague was spreading fast, people were dying. Then Phinehas took his spear and went through the camp and and put a spear through a man and a pagan woman. Why ? God said they were not supposed to be sleeping with pagans.
Then the Plague stop.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
The passage in question is Numbers 25:1-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2025:1-9;&amp;version=49;). The passage doesn't dwell on the plague you mention. Rather the passage describes how the people of Israel began to "play the harlot" with the women of Moab and began to worship the Moabite's gods. As a result, God ordered Moses to execute the leaders of the people--not, you will note, the children of the leaders. It then goes on to describe Phinehas seeing an Israelite man with a Moabite woman in the Israelite camp and then killing them both. Only then, is anything mentioned about a plague, when, after Phinehas does that, the Bible says "So the plague on the sons of Israel was checked."

Now, maybe children died in that plague. But the Bible never tells us that they were. In fact, the Bible is quite vague about what exactly that plague even was; for all we know it might have been something that didn't affect children. The entire rest of the passage focuses on the punishment of adults, so whether or not children were harmed during that briefly mentioned plague, I don't think you can properly use that passage to prove your belief that God kills children to judge parents.
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Ginger: There was another instance in the time of Jericho. The israelites were losing in battle. The Lord told them not to take any loot. So they stop the battle for a while and try to figure out why they were losing. They found out that one of the soldier have hidden some loot.
The other soliders were dead but not this particular soldier. Once they had the soldier killed, they won the battle.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
The passage you're talking about is Joshua7:16-26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua%207:16-26;&amp;version=15;). In all honesty, this passage has troubled me ever since I first heard it when I was about 10 years old. Some Biblical commentators think that Achan's family was punished because they were aware of what he had done and helped him covered it up; if that's true, that would mean they were killed for their own sins not his. If nothing else, the fact remains that Achan himself was executed for his sin--his child was not killed while he was allowed to live. So, again, I don't think you can use this text as proof that God will kill a child to judge a father.

[j2theperson]

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Ginger: And as I said, He is the same, yesterday, today and forever. He does not change.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
The verse you are quoting is Hebrews 13:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&amp;chapter=13&amp;version=49&amp;context=chapter) , and you are taking it completely out of context. You are using it as a way of provoking terror, but when I read Hebrews 13 it seems to speak of God's grace and care toward us and our need to trust Him. In verse 12, it specifically mentions Christ's sacrifice for us.

The God of the universe died for us already. He was the the last sacrifice made for us, the only one that would suffice. He covered all our sins and received all our punishment. What need does He have to punish our children because of our sins when, in effect, He has already punished Himself for our sins?

[40days40years]

God makes judgements on descendents of people "their children" now I have no idea about the kids in the Phillipines. Was'nt there a story of a wicked king in the old testament and God said he was going to wipe his line out if I got the story right. Were not talking about Jonathan here. Anyway the king had a child or grandchild who was a pretty good guy it sounds at least compared to his family history. Basically people started to say what about this guy and the Lord let it be known that he was aware of the situation. All through out the old testament are stories of judgement. Jacob I loved, Esau I hated, I will bless this group I will curse that one.

[40days40years]

Revelations 2:20-23: Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teachings she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

[mcmstaff78]

The question would whether the "children" of "Jezebel" refers to actual children of people or to the spiritual "offspring" of this "Jezebel". Also questionable is whether this refers to an individual or, which I think more like, a particular heretical "prophetic" sect that was associated with the Church at Thyatira. I think what we see in this passage is not God's promise to strike dead the children of individuals, but to bring judgment upon a particular heresy.

[mcmstaff78]

In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jeremiah 31:29-33)

[ginger1]

J2 - Not all firsborn children are boys, some of them are girls. And some have adopted, and those adopted ones are girls.
As I said, I really do not know how many kids were affected. And I do not know why Steve Murrell son was not affected also.

And knowing some of the VCF leaders, in the corporate staff, leaders who are part of the cover up , some of their firstborn are girls. So they are not affected.

in regards to Phinehas, 24,000 people died. Why God did not directly punish the person, I do not know why.

In Joshua, Joshua did not participate in any cover up, because if he did he would not ask God.
And Joshua said, "Ah, Sovereign LORD, WHY did you ever bring this people across the Jordan to deliver us into the hands of the Amorites to destroy us? I

As I said, in regards to VCF, its not the sins of the parents , its the sins of the Corporate VCF that God send judgement. I do not think all senior pastors got affected. I do not know who were these pastors that got affected , I only know two of them. And I just happen to know of these two has committed some sins. And one of them is cover up the other is spiritual abuse.

J2. God is capable of love and violence. Even when Jesus was here on earth, He gave hints about how His disciples would even die. Except for John. And we know that they all died of a violent death. God can and able to let you die on the hands of the enemy. God is more concerned about souls.

Another scripture will be about Sodom and Gamorrah. Jesus said that IF SODOM and GAMORRAH would have been alive On His day, THEY WOULD HAVE REPENTED.
Question is, Where is God's mercy and love ? Why did not God send Jesus at the time of Sodom and Gamorrah, surely thousands of souls would have been saved . But that did not happen. Does that mean I have to question His love ? NO.
He clearly said, the days and times are not for us to know.

We are living in God's time. When Jesus cursed the fig tree, because it has no fruits, if you read on, its not the season of figs. Why can't He be patient and wait for OUR Timing ? When its the season of Figs then if there is no fruits go cursed it.
God does not work that way. He is UNPREDICTABLE. He does not work on our own time nor deal with our Intelligence nor our reasoning.

[ginger1]

J2, I have an ungodly parents. My mother dabble and practice witchcraft. But with His mercy toward me, did not punish me nor judge me for my parents.

As I said, God did not judge those VCF pastors/parents because of their sins. What I believe is that God send His judgement because of the sins of the VCF corporate.
One of the sign I look at is the head injuries. God speaks of the Head of the church, who are the head ? In the Shepherding doctrine, its the church goverment are the Head of the church NOT Jesus Christ. And attacking the head is a sign. Then I look into the scriptures, why the Firstborn sons ? Going back to the scriptures, Its the Egyptians. The Pharaoh, who is the head of the kingdom has sinned.
Are the VCF corporate pastors has sinned ? yes.

Why not all of the senior pastors affected ? I do not know.

God is capable of love, mercy , judgement , violence , anger , all these emotions that we have, God has also. Can God be violent ? Yes. And He does not change. Just because I have seen abuse in EN, does not mean I have to change my belief about God's nature. He , God is the same , yesterday , today and forever.
That includes extreme Love and Violence.

The way Jesus died, is violent. And God the Father let it happen. The Disciples died violently.
As I said before, I cannot predict how God will work. All I know, as long as our heart is right , obey the first commandment, Love God with all our hearts soul and mind. We will be fine spiritually. The first commandment covers everything.

[ginger1]

J2 - in regards to the persecution of the church, so the gospel can be spread to Samaria and Judea. Read Acts 8. To several chapters.

[ginger1]

40/40 - yes its Jonathan. For some reason, God spared him. As I said, I do not know why God would not just pick the particular person and punish him . But God is God.

We do the same thing in America. example We do not like Fidel Castro, we punish the whole country. Even though those people in Cuba loves america and some died coming and trying to escape Cuba .

[ginger1]

J2, this is just to add what I said about our human reasoning and intelligence. God does not respect that. We can see that several times, He did it in scriptures.

Example. Moses. God told Moses go speak to Pharaoh, first of all you do not send a man with a stutter to the highest king in the land. And speak for God ! by our own reasoning, we send somebody who are eloquent and can speak fluently. But God did not do that.

Another example, after 40 years, The Israelites is about to enter the land and God told the Israelites , These men need to be circumcized. So there is this mass circumsion among the Israelites. Now, let's see if the men can here can answer this, if you go and get circumcized, how long does it take to heal that circumcision ? 2 weeks ? maybe.
Read , within 3 days God told them to go invade the land. Now, if I am a man, an Israelites, I would be thinking... NOW ? Now ? Lord ? I am still in pain. Now ?

God does not respect our time , reasoning nor intelligence. He is an unpredictable God.

(Message edited by ginger1 on December 11, 2006)

[j2theperson]

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Ginger: As I said, I really do not know how many kids were affected. And I do not know why Steve Murrell son was not affected also.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
If you don't even know the basic facts, what right do you have to start claiming that God is killing children to punish EN leaders in the Philipines? This is a very serious claim you're making, and yet, when pressed, the only evidence you have to back up your claims are vague things you've heard second-hand.

In the old testament in the passages where God poured out His judgement upon people, it was very clear (1) that people were being judged, (2) why they were being judged, and (3) Who was doing the judging. When God struck down the Egyptian's firstborn, He told them beforehand that he was going to do it. When Achan sinned and Israel started losing battles, God clearly told them He was judging them and He told them why. The plagues He sent as judgement killed thousands not just three, and when He did send plagues as judgement He told the people what He was doing and why He was doing it. As far as I recall, the times when God decided to wipe out a family line He told His current prophet what He intended to do (and, I don't recall any instance of Him just striking an entire family dead--rather, the family lines just died out or were killed in battle over the course of a few generations).


I think most people will agree with me: 3 dead children and 1 idiot jock hitting his head does not the judgement of God make.

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Ginger: The way Jesus died, is violent. And God the Father let it happen. The Disciples died violently.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Neither of those examples even remotely bolster your opinion. Christ died so that we don't have to (and, I might add, so that children don't have to die for their parents). The disciples (who were all adults--not children) weren't killed because God was judging them. They were killed because certain people didn't like their message.
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Ginger: As I said before, I cannot predict how God will work.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Except that's exactly what you're doing right now. You're claiming, despite the fact that you have, at best, only extremely tenuous evidence, that you know God is punishing VCF corporate in the Philipines by killing three children and making a boy hit his head during a basketball accident. And you doggedly persist in believing that that is what God is doing and that is the way God works...which is fine; it's your right to believe what you want, but don't pretend you're not predicting how God works because that's exactly what you are doing.
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Ginger: All I know, as long as our heart is right , obey the first commandment, Love God with all our hearts soul and mind. We will be fine spiritually. The first commandment covers everything.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Except if what you've been saying is true, the first commandment won't necessarily protect you if you're the firstborn son of a vaguely defined group of EN leaders in the Philipines circa 2004.

[j2theperson]

If God really was judging VCF in the Philipines by killing the firstborn son of three VCF leaders, nothing seems to have resulted from that judgement. No great change occured, no mass repentance or reevaluation. The pastors who lost children have probably all gotten on with their lives. (And this brings up another point...I would be very interested in hearing what has happened to the three pastors effected in the years since their children died.) From the standpoint of people in the US, the EN churches in the Philipines are still supposed to be among the better EN churches.

Now, compare that to what happened to Phil Bonasso. One could perhaps argue that Phil suffered a sort of judgement from God that involved his oldest child. God didn't kill anyone or strike them with sickness. In fact, He didn't actively punish anyone in any way. All He did was reveal to everyone the sins that were already occurring privately. Those revelations sent shockwaves through EN, revealed to them EN's many dark and ungodly aspects, and, if however briefly, pressed upon them the need for them to repent. Now, of course, it appears that they have chosen not to repent and instead attempt to get things back to the way they were before the scandals, but they are still dealing with the consequences of what I think could more honestly be considered God's judgement than three children unfortunately dying.

[ginger1]

J2 its more than 3 firstborn children. I know, it does not seems there is any change.
But it did shook all of them though, thats what God is trying to make a point. Get their attention. It got Pharaoh's attention but he did not repent.

Now , in regards to Phil , I want to refrain my comment on this. because its too soon. I will email you however later, when I have the time. I did promised everybody why I was away for quite sometime. I am waiting for the Lord's timing.

[ginger1]

J2, when God struck the Egyptians, the egyptians knows why, If you read, the Egyptians REASONED themselves why they have to keep the Israelites as slaves.
Same thing with VCF Corporate, they reasoned themselves why they have to keep on sinning. Forget what God's said. Their own human reasoning made an excuse for what they are doing. Cover up. Misuse of finances.

As I said, Its NOT THE PARENTS SIN. Its the VCF Corporate SINS. And the information was pass on to me by the VCF people themselves. They all knew its from God. I happen to agree with them.
Now, if you do not believe thats from God, thats fine. But because Christ died for us, does not mean God will re write the entire scripture that He has change. And He won't do it again.
Show me in scripture that His nature has change.
I would like to stick to the scriptures rather than human reasoning.

[mcmstaff78]

Ginger, God doesn't change, in Him there is "no variablness, neither shadow of turning." However, the way in which He deals with humanity changes. The passage from Jeremiah which I quote in my post 566 above indicates that He will not deal with His "new covenant" people the same way He did with the old covenant people. You make a "category error" by confusing the immutability of God's essence with the way He interacts with human beings.

Additionally, even if we were to say that some acts are judgments of God, there is no way for us to discern which are and which aren't. "The rain falls on the just and the unjust alike" and both the "righteous" and "unrighteous" are often caught up in calamity. While one might discern for oneself that some calamity is a judgment of God, to do so for others seems to me to be not only impossible, but quite presumptuous.

[ginger1]

J2 - you said Christ died so that we don't have to . To what ?

[lablady2]

ginger: A little off topic, but what movie did you see and how was it?

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Ginger: J2 - you said Christ died so that we don't have to . To what ?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I'm just going to quote something I said earlier because I think it answers this question....The God of the universe died for us already. He was the the last sacrifice made for us, the only one that would suffice. He covered all our sins and received all our punishment. What need does He have to punish our children because of our sins when, in effect, He has already punished Himself for our sins?
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Ginger: I would like to stick to the scriptures rather than human reasoning.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
In no way have I not stuck to the scriptures during the course of this debate. I have a very high respect for the Bible. I did not discard the passages you quoted; I simply strongly disagree on the way you interpret them. As a matter of fact, if I didn't respect the Bible, I probably wouldn't care how you interpreted certain passages.

You and I obviously completely disagree on this subject, which is fine. If you have any further thoughts feel free to post them. I'll be happy to read them, but, at this point, I think I've said all that I have to say.

I just want to reiterate that I believe I have stuck to scripture during the course of this discussion.

[dust]

I think J2 is saying that there was a sacrifice already to lead people to repentance. God sacrificed His Son and yet God did not sin. In your thinking and explanation here, well in lieu of the way the world is, and the state of many churches, there would be dead children everywhere. And, there would never be enough dead children to pay for the sins of the parents. The debt is paid by GOD HIMSELF in form of Jesus Christ.

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it sounds almost like you are gloating about their peril.

[mcmstaff78]

Or, as the Orthodox sing on Pascha (Easter)...

Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and on those in the tombs bestowing life.

[j2theperson]

Yes, Dust, that is what I was trying to say, and you say it a lot better than I did. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[ginger1]

Time and time again, I posted, ITS NOT THE PARENTS SINS. ITS the Corporate VCF . And time and time again I said, this is rare. Rare meaning it DOES NOT HAPPEN ALL THE TIME.
Dust, - you put that to the extreme situation and it is wrong. You are putting words into what I posted. I have time and time agains said this is unique and rare. IT DOES NOT HAPPEN ALL THE TIME.
And no, I am not gloating at their peril. That is wicked and evil thing to say.
This is a discussion. I do not mind you discussing things but please keep it civil.

What you posted about Christ and in this situation is two different things. Christ did paid for our sins. But what about those people who willifully sins and reasoned themselves ? Like EN ? so God would just let them get away what they did ? God would not bring judgement because Jesus died for them ? So its OK to continue to sin ? Since God wont bring judge them ?

And I posted before Judgement comes in different ways. Not all of them are alike and sometimes it does affect innocent people like Children.
I believe that VCF was judge, And thats my opinion and mine alone. And J2 and Dust, you do not believe in that, I respect that also. J2, I would not know if that was in scripture since there is lack of reference of scripture on what you posted. Sorry for that.

I respect Lablady opinion, she has kept it civil. And that we enjoy disagreeing with each other.
Lablady, we watch unaccompanied minors. Now a days thats all we can watch, Kid's movies. its good, it has a good ending, but the way it ended is so corny. I did not like it. Its predictable.
Kids likes it though.

[ginger1]

Mcmstaff, I do agree with you, Plagues, war, aids, things like that, I do not believe its God's judgement.

All I am saying is this, what happened to VCF is a ONE time thing, That can be traced and similar to the Old Testament. And time and time again I said this is rare and unique.

I come to a conclusion that God can do it again. And as I express its my opinion. Not forcing it on anybody.

[dust]

Ginger,
I never said anything evil. I will ask you then to restate what you said. You can already see the danger of such a thing. I was clear and said I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. You know even if in my heart I believed such a thing was God's judgement (but I don't) I would refrain from posting. No matter what people that knows these people read here.

This brings a horrible condemnation to those families. I would say that posting such a thing is going to and has caused people considerable unnecessary pain. My brother died of Aids and he was a homosexual and a lot of people believe this was God's judgment, and a lot of Christians hurt me with their thinking. I don't see this as any different.

[ginger1]

I do not believe that homosexuals who died of aids are a judgement of God. We have been abused by Phil Bonasso and what happened to his daughter, I have stated time and time again, I would NOT even wished that to my enemies. So how could you even say that it would look like I am gloating of what happened to them ? VCF did nothing to me , and what I stated is just my opinion.
To say that I am gloating at their peril is wrong.
You may gotten hurt by the religious group of what happened to your brother, but it is wrong to take that on me.

[osakadan]

Ginger, even though I don't agree I have never felt that you are gloating or anything bad. You are very sincere in your beliefhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[dust]

Ginger,

I said I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, and I should have made that a stronger statement in your defense, I apologize.

But, perhaps you might reflect just how offensive this is and how your statements can be interpreted. This isn't about you and I'm not out to hurt your feelings. I am more concerned for the feelings of the grieving parents and their extended friends and family and how they will view God.

I am asking you this: How do you address this condemnation that this brings to these parents? How are they to view God? How are they to see God as their Father, if they are seeing Him as killing their children in judgement?

Why would God use the child as the stand-in for the judgement. This is opposite of God who used HIS SON as the stand-in for our salvation.,

You say this is just your opinion. And you are entitled to opinion, but in biblical terms you can't speak for God and decide what His judgements are.

And to that end, even if I thought this, I would never speak it, I would never put that idea in someone's head. I don't believe in the theology that scares people to God, but one that draws people to God, and is a beautiful testimony. Can you imagine 4 generations from now, the testimony that God killed the children. No, I refuse this.

Actions are either life taking or life giving. So are words. I believe you when you say you are not gloating at the peril of these children. I guess we have some cultural differences and in my culture, to say such things is like cursing those children. I didn't hear pain from you for those children and again these are cultural differences, I'm sure. In my culture, it would be extreme grief and pain and weeping for any child, and to even utter that God has taken the child due to sins of parents/sins of the church would be more than the parents could handle.

The devil accuses man to God.
The devil accuses God to man.
The devil accuses man to man.

I do not want to be your accuser in any way and if you felt that I apologize . I simply want you to see that you may be falling for that same trap.

There is NO CONDEMNATION for those in Christ, so it is a leap to say those children were not in Christ. Because if He killed them, He condemned them. Christ is NOT going to kill his own. We have no biblical precedent for this.

[ginger1]

Dust , apology accepted.

I only know two of the parents that got affected by it. One participated in a cover up the other spiritual abuse . And abuse of authority.
As I said, I would not blame the parents per se, I would however blame the VCF Corporate for their widespread practice of sin. That it has become a cultural practice of abuse of authority and cover up.
The VCF cultural practice is like a large community. Tight - knit friendship. They cover each others sins. So if one get hurt, the other gets affected. This type of effect is unlike the western culture. Where we send condolences to each other, while in the philippines, its part of the family. Friendship runs deeper.

So when I say , I felt its God's judgement, the whole VCF community Leadership gets affected, not just the families that their childen died. This is as if their own children pass away.

There is a cultural differences. So its not the sins of the parents per se, Its the VCF corporate sins. I always observed the sign of the times. And the sign that I observed is it affected the head. With different type of injuries, to me it means different type of sins of the heads of the church. Or church goverment.

So its not exactly the parents. Its VCF Corporate.

[dust]

Ginger,

I understand this better now. I guess my prayer is some kind of world wide reverberation in this ministry that brings them to their knees. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing that, are you?

[ginger1]

Dust - email me. Anniegrey@msn.com