Revelatory Word for Every Nation Churches and Ministries 82605

[annelewis (annelewis)]

aletheia, who gave this word and where?

I'll be honest. I have issues with prophetic words about judgement. It was just such a string of these types of words that finally and irrevocably severed my emotional attachment to Maranatha. Those who were around in the late 80's no doubt remember that there were a lot of very strong words about a day of judgement was coming that would precede revival and not all would make it. I would often leave meetings feeling a little sick to my stomach until I finally decided that if I wasn't going to make it, then I wasn't going to make it. I didn't have anything left in me to try any more.

And for quite a few years after, probably well into the 90's, I think part of me unconsciously believed that I was destined for hell, since I couldn't pray enough or be committed enough or shout loud enough.

In retrospect, I think what was happening, perhaps intentionally - perhaps not, was that people were beginning to stop believing that their total radical commitment to Christ would result in revival and thus the response was to use fear to keep them motivated.

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

This is a false prophecy -- PERIOD!!

[japinoy (japinoy)]

1 John 4:1 - Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

[helpfulcommentary (helpfulcommentary)]

Where did the prophecy come from?
It is a legitimate prophetic source?

[marymaryquitecontrary (marymaryquitecontrary)]

Hi, aletheia ,

May I please ask who "prophesied" this? I agree with japinoy, I would be careful to test any prophecy, whether it is from a true prophet and whether the source is scriptural.

Would you post here who said it, where, is it from a proven prophet? Is there a link to an MP3 I could listen to? It would be very interesting to see what happens...

Blessings, Mary

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Yes, give us some context.

[aletheia (aletheia)]

I regret that I cannot give you any information right now. Perhaps later.

Peace to all,
aletheia

[marymaryquitecontrary (marymaryquitecontrary)]

Hi Aletheia,

Just curious, but is there a particular reason that you can't share the source of this with us since you did already post the "prophecy" ... why post it at all if you can't give us any details about it? (Sorry, but that is just a little odd to me.) According to Scripture, we cannot just take your word for it. We must test to see whether it is from God.

Peace - Mary

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Mary, Sometimes the test is to wait if it will happen. There are a lot of prophecies given but a lot of them did not come to pass. And yet some did come to pass, I remember some of the teaching in school of prophecy , there are prophecies that was rejected and "tested" by the leaders in the church it came to pass.

Let me give you an example, I remember Lakita Garth have prophesied that Maranatha will soon break up, she was severely rebuke by Phil Bonasso. But a few months later it came to pass. There was no apologies from Phil.

Sometimes that best thing is to wait. There is no harm done by waiting.
Though I do know there are prophecies that was given thats not from God. If it goes against God's Word and His Nature . As I look at it, there is no harm on this type of prophecies.

[marymaryquitecontrary (marymaryquitecontrary)]

Hi ginger1,

Well, the only things I will say about that is that unless the source is known, then it would be hard to substantiate that it was from a proven prophet, and if it is someone who has inside info we don't know about, then it is just an elaboration on something they already know. One cannot use prior earthly knowledge to truly prophesy. And if that is the case (insider information) and we can't prove it in advance, then whoever said it might be able to use it to say, "See? I'm a prophet... " and then capitalize on it, and no one could really prove that they are not who they say they are...

I would also like to hear a tape of it myself. Some sort of recorded proof.

Not that I can't see it happening, and not that I don't believe that prophetic words can come true. And Steve seems to be a really neato guy. So I would have no problem with that if it happened. It is God who exalts and God who brings low... Whatever God decides to do, I'm for it, since he's God and I'm not... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

Most people wouldn't have a problem revealing the source of a prophetic word in advance of it either coming true or falling short of that. Hiding the source makes me suspicious. If I did that, I'd never hear the end of it! LOL !

If a "Thus Sayeth The Lord" does NOT come true, then the person who "prophesied" it is a false prophet. I would like to know who it is then as well, so that any further prophesies will be suspect. (Aletheia's quote says, "The Lord is going to..." which indicates by its wording that it is unconditional)

One would give a conditional prophesy a 50/50 chance of coming true or not. That's different.

I have to judge something like that myself as to whether I believe it or not.

Blessings, Mary

PS - I LOVE Lakita Garth - she is one of the better cultural apologetic preachers I've ever heard!

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Mary,
The God I know can speak through a donkey. When someone speaks to me, I compare it to scripture and to what God has been speaking to me to test it. My guess is that the person who felt that this word came from God was Aletheia herself. From your relentless inquiries of who spoke this, I am guessing that you are assuming the same thing. If it was her, she is probably not posting it because you are obviously geared up to shoot down anyone you don't see as a "proven" prophet. Why do you need to hear a tape of a prophecy before either accept or reject it? There were no tape recorders around in the old testiment. It is probably not a proven prophet. There is probably no tape. So, test it with what God gave you - your discernment - and either accept it or let it go. To be honest, I think this prediction of how God might react to the abuses of EN leadership is actually a very merciful version of the future for them. I would think that members of EN would be glad to hear that someone on this board actually still thinks EN has a future as a caring non-abusive christian ministry which fears our living God.

[marymaryquitecontrary (marymaryquitecontrary)]

lc_20,

I see your point, and I was actually not thinking it was necessarily Aletheia, but could have been someone else. And I think it would be my right to at least ask questions. I have nothing against Aletheia at all. I have also had a lot of my posts shot down, but no hard feelings.

There were actually recorders in the Old Testament. They were the writers who recorded the events of the old testament. That's how we know what happened. I just would like to reserve "judgement" - I was also just replying to ginger1 and what she said...

One of the ways to test a prophesy is to use God given discernment, and see if your inner witness can say yes and amen. I just didn't feel anything in particular either negative or positive, so I was relaying some of the other ways that I thought were logical to test it.

And like I said above, if it happens, I have no problem. God is God. I submit to Him and what He wills. And a good dose of the fear of God is always beneficial to the Body...

Blessings, Mary

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Mary,
Sorry to have nosed in on your conversation with Ginger. You have every right to ask questions. I was just feeling like we were beating a dead horse here by asking again after Aletheia already said she didn't want to answer at this time. As far as written records, that is what we are doing here - writing down our experiences and thoughts. Those who read them can compare them to their own experiences, scripture and their own thoughts - use their discernment and make their choices in life. Using discernment to make choices with the information we have available and taking responsibility for those choices: that is what it comes down to.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

mary,

At that time, Lakita Garth is not considered as a prophet. Nor several people who prophesied that Phil bonasso church will have a church split. none of those people are prophets. It was just a word, a person does not need to be a prophet to prophesy. Some just have a gift of prophesy. Some just felt God spoke to them. One does not need a title to prophesy. These are not scriptural. There are a lot of unknown people who gave word in the Old Testament. Its easy to look it up. SOmetimes the source can be from unknown people.

Also lakita Garth have left also MSI/EN long time ago, I am just wondering if you knew that ? Her best friend Yvette Sneider also have left MSI/EN.

To keep looking for a title for a "word from the Lord " you will miss God. God uses anything, I have shared that in the past in scriptures, Even your worst enemy can prophesy to you and its from the Lord. Thats in the Old Testament. I can look it up later when I have time, but I have posted the verse back then.

ULYankee, do you still remember the verse ?

As I said, sometimes the best thing is to wait.

[marymaryquitecontrary (marymaryquitecontrary)]

Hi ginger1, lc_20,

That's okay lc. If you're in the room, comment away.

Hey Ginger - I actually didn't say Lakita was a prophet. I said:

>>"PS - I LOVE Lakita Garth - she is one of the better cultural apologetic preachers I've ever heard! <<

In my estimation, she is a cultural apologetic preacher. and a wonderful one at that. I didn't even know she was a member - I just thought she had her own ministry and she spoke there sometimes.

I understand about the "word of the Lord" thing - I have had friends who had words for me that were exactly on. So I am not looking for a title. Just confirmation from the Spirit, and I may not get any confirmation up until... (if or when) it does come to pass.

I totally was just wondering where it came from. REALLY...
Just making a comment. That's it...

No biggie - okay?
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Gotta go to bed. I've been up way too late too many nights and I'm behind in writing other stuff...

Peace out - Mary

[wiseasaserpentgentleasadove (wiseasaserpentgentleasadove)]

hi, all.
it's been a while. I truly believe this prophetic word, and think the fact that it was given 3 days before Hurricane Katrina hit La. is no coincidence. For others who want to bash the prophetic, you might want to see these two sites and read the words given prior to the storm hitting New Orleans. I know that since the storm hit, EN has partnered with the rest of the body of Christ (for a change) and has been doing a lot of relief efforts. We can only hope and pray for mercy when/if this apparent time of judgement takes place with this particular body of believers. www.kimclement.com (http://www.kimclement.com)
www.theelijahlist.com (http://www.theelijahlist.com)
once in the elijah list, search prophetic words given by chuck pierce. Once at Kim Clement's website, read the last 5-6 prophetic words that he has posted under national prophecies on his web page. if the above prophetic word is coming to pass now for EN (which, by the way, ministers with my spirit) it will be an answer to many prayers.

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

Kim Clement and Steve Schultz and his "Elijah List" are both part of the NOLR. They copy the same errors of the Philadelphian Society and the French Prophets and the Rosicrucians. If they continue in their evil deeds and beliefs, they will wind up just like John Wimber, John Robert Stevens and any number of false hermetic wanna-be pseudo-Christians that mock God by masking their identity with Biblical metaphors, allegories ans symbolism.

You don't have to be an "Ezekiel" or a "Moses" to figure out where they people are going and what their aquarian objectives are.

Blessings,

--Bill

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Scripture states that we are not to despise prophecy, but to test all things and hold fast to that which is good.

Just because a prophecy comes true does not necessarily mean that it comes from a true prophet. Even false or corrupted prophets can prophesy things that are true... like the demon possessed girl in Acts, or Balaam, who despite Balak's commands could not prophesy curses over Israel but only blessings (Numbers 22-23).

Chuck Pierce has also prophesied (http://watch.pair.com/chuck-pierce.html) recent hurricanes, floods and earthquakes, many of which seem to have come true. But his teachings (http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Rebecca.htm) are highly suspect imho in the same vein as what Bill has posted above, and it would be very dangerous imho to be led to listen to ones' false teachings just b/c ones' prophecies may come true. People marveled at William Branham's healing and prophesying abilities. However, his teachings were about as false as they come, and in many ways led much of the groundwork for the heresies coming out of the Latter Rain revival. If he didn't have the abilities that he had, he certainly wouldn't have had the audience. False signs and wonders aren't always just the result of sleight of hand or someone speaking into an earpiece... Jesus Himself in Matthew 24 warned there would be many false prophets who would deceive even the elect with their false signs and wonders.

Prophets and prophecies must be tested against Scripture. God never contradicts Himself.

However, rejecting prophecies out of hand as Paul warned against in 1 Thess 5:19-21 can also be dangerous. Test all things...

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on October 24, 2005)

[dazzla (dazzla)]

For a prophecy thats either not yet happened, happened and come true or not come true ?

How do you use scripture to test ?

..and are we suppsoed to test the "prophet" or the prophecy.

Forgive the dumb question but it is meant in a sincere way as prophecy is widely used in my church and have not really been satisifed with answers I've been given.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Hi dazzla, I apologize for not being more specific...

This article really helped me out a lot with the same questions I had when I realized that not everyone who comes along saying they're a prophet may actually be a prophet of God:

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/discerntestjudge.html

Even if you can't test the prophecy b/c it hasn't come true yet, you can also test the prophet's teachings to see if they are based on the "sound doctrine" of Scripture, and also test the fruit of the prophet's life--that's why I gave William Branham as an example, b/c his teachings were so obviously not in line with orthodox Christianity, even though he apparently did heal and prophecy things that came true. But he also taught that truth can be found not just in Scripture but also the Zodiac and the pyramids. Another famous healer of the same period, AA Allen, was an alcoholic and this contributed to his death. These were both people who were discussed in the old VLI Spiritual Gifts class in Nashville as having true spiritual gifts but not enough character to handle those gifts (especially Allen)... though I would say that the lives and teachings of people like this might make the source of their gifts suspect.

I hope this helps.

blessings,
ulyankee

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Titus,

Respectfully I disagree. Modern prophecy is not the infallible word of God. Human interpretation and delivery of the word plays a big part.

Just because someone dies with a disease does not mean they are of satan or that they were bad people: many Godly people suffer from one sickness or another and die from it. They can not be condemned continuously for that sin.

Alcholism is a disease and contrary to your viewpoint I think he battled with it for many years. If Jack Coe died as a result of sin then he joins the club with most of us.

People like Rick Joyner have been accused of gnosticism, but this is only an interpretation of his prophecy and not the heart of who he is. Yes, he has done to Moravian thing to death a bit and been a bit flaky on US patriotism (most Americans are anyway)but his heart and will is for the advancement of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. Everyone, besides his church, knows that Willie Branham lost the plot. In his early days he was clearly anointed as a prophet. His latter theories and heresies are not taught today in any mainstream charismaniac churches to my knowledge.


So too Paul Cain. His battle with the bottle and homosexuality does not condemn him to eternal damnation. We can not attain perfection in this lifetime. It is not possible. Even the most outwardly perfect guys in EN must at some time admit that they are not perfect. We are only made perfect (a continual progressive outworking) in Christ.

I for one do not believe the headline prophecy here is flase. I did question its wisdom in the way it was published. I still have my doubts. I don't believe in the covering doctrine, but there is wisdom in counsel. Aletheia cannot disclose this for whatever reason.

I think she was either very brave or stupid or both. It took some guts. I, for one, am happy to hear anyone tell the leaders of EN to repent. And if they do, we will all willbe so much the richer for it.

Expecting Christian people to change their minds about restorationism, apostolic ministry, dispensationalism etc. can only happen with recognition of error and a willingness to repent and change. Sure evidence and direction are means towards this happening.

I have heard a rumour of a corrective prophecy given to the EN leadership. It was obviously not meant for us to see, but then perhaps, and then maybe perhaps, Aletheia was meant to do and say what she did as another means of letting us know what is happening. Either through God or man. I would hope God, but then . . .

I was most certainly not out of order to question the context and the motivation for her word. Amongst Charismatics/3rd Wave/Word of Faith/Pentecostal circles there is a wide range of opinions and protocols with respect to the prophetic and prophetic ministries. In the States there has been an attempt to come together, but as with denominations, there are differences.

I suggest if you want a balanced viewpoint from within the Prophetic restoration camp then read or listen to Graham Cooke. A good critique of the modern American prophetic movement can be found in a book by John Bevere (I can't recall its name, but it was enough to make me think 200 times before prophesying.

The problem with some of the more radical conspiracy theories is that the evidence for it is scant. It almost requires a gnostic knowledge in itself which is a dangerous thing.

I don't discount the possibility that the higher adepts within some charismatic group possibly meet in secret and discuss pyramids, talismans and gnostic strategies for world domination. I am just waiting to be convinced. Show me the money!!




(Message edited by speakword2004 on October 27, 2005)

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

fyi speakword and titus, my comments were not meant to be a comment on aletheia's prophecy but were more general about testing prophecy and prophets. Nor were they meant to "condemn" anyone, but were just examples of prophets/healers who due to the fruit in their lives, would cause at least me to question the source of power they may have been tapping into, knowingly or not.

So far, aletheia's fruit just here on the discussion board... gentleness, kindness and patience, and not division and strife, says much. Of course, one cannot get to know one's fruit well just by one's anonymous conduct on a discussion board... but it may indicate something.

I have been praying for full repentance, such as aletheia said in that post. And for choosing loyalty to the Lord Jesus Christ, who alone is the head of the church.

History shows that full repentance did not take place after Maranatha dissolved. Bob Weiner took the blame for many if not all the ills in Maranatha. And here we are 15 years later.

It is my prayer that those who need to repent of whatever they need to repent of will know what this is at heart by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I have much to repent for as well. Perhaps I have been too strident here at times. Perhaps I have spoken when I should have listened. But through it all the Lord has called me to rely upon Him and His strength alone, rather than on my own strength or talents, and I hope and pray that it is that fruit, the fruit of the Holy Spirit, that has been manifested here, not the fruit of my weak and corrupted flesh.

Speakword, I pray daily that the truth--whatever it is--be revealed to His children by the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot know Him, but we do for He dwells with us and in us. John 14:16-19.

blessings,
ulyankee

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Bob Weiner took the blame? Go look at Bob Weiner's website. He has done the whitewash thing as well.

[ontheroad (ontheroad)]

Ulyankee -

I just wanted to say that your posts are such an example to me of humility and Godliness. I know that at times, I have been too brash or emotional on some of my posts here. But I have found your posts to a good model of how to balance standing up for the truth with humility and kindness.

Ontheroad

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

speakword, point taken, thanks... I was more referring to how it was viewed at the time, as evidenced by what was reported in the Christian news media (Charisma in particular), its own newsletters, plus the recollections of some former MCM folks here like John R. Jones. While some of the current EN leaders may have repented before their own congregations (like Steve Murrell), to my knowledge, the only one whose repentance was reported in the media was Weiner's.

One does have to admit though that until many of us started examining and discussing the entire history of the movement, the Maranatha history of Every Nation has been treated almost as a disowned or even just merely embarrassing parent. Whitewashing and/or rewriting the history doesn't make it go away, and only until the history is fully acknowledged, for good and/or for ill, can one examine it for what it was, and identify the vestiges that have carried through to the present day, imho.

In retrospect, this quote from the Christianity Today (http://www.rickross.com/reference/maranatha/maranatha6.html) article announcing the breakup seems nothing short of prophetic, where a former member "expressed concern that some Maranatha churches, now that they are on their own, could get worse instead of better."

I know that doesn't describe all of the former Maranatha churches and ministries (I think though that ontheroad may agree it describes her former church)... but one can't deny that here we are, 15 years later, discussing many of the same exact issues that plagued Maranatha.

blessings,
ulyankee

[john_r_jones (john_r_jones)]

There are plenty of folks in the body of Christ who are examples of humility and don't wear it on their sleve. My concern voiced earlier is still the same those who are participating in EN (or any other ministry) have a responsibility for the course of their ministry. I drive by a reminder on a regular basis of a ministry gone awry with a multi story hulk as testament to the sin of a leader. Leonard Ravenhill gave a strange note of prophetic significance when he said pigeons would fly through the building at the dedication ceremony-which they do today. Repentance is the product of being forgiven and acknowledging our need to be redeemed. The ongoing process of being a Christian is where the practics of genuine discipleship come into play. To subordinate our selves, our callings, and our dreams, and ultimately our place in God's kingdom to a man has weighty consequences-I know. Well, I'm supposed to go to din-din now so...
John

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Is it perhaps not a case of a powerful myth of origins. Is Murrell complicit? (edited) Read his church site. Not a word about Maranatha.

Empires need myths. They feed on them. Go to EN sites and have a look. We seem to have a few heroes (is Bonasso now to be expunged?) who boldly pioneered a ministry out of nothing.

(Message edited by speakword2004 on October 28, 2005)

[cupatea (cupatea)]

--stealth mode off--

OK Speak you have lured me out of steath mode for a single post.

While Steve Murrell doesn't advertise his Maranatha origins on the Victory website - that is not the same as hiding or denying it. I was passed a recorded message of his from earlier this year where he clearly admits the mistakes of the Maranatha era as being wrong and something the church in the Philippines does not want to return to. Maybe you would only be satisfied with a banner ad at the top of the Victory.org.ph website saying:

"We are a chruch born out of the Maranatha cultic movement. Enter at your own risk."

Whilst I have my own bones to pick with EN - mostly theological and partially dealing with the control issue which I believe is born out of the theology - I find your evidence for condemning Murrell a little scant.

The test is not whether the church or individual is advertising their past mistakes but whether they are willing to admit to the mistakes of the past as mistakes without hiding them. And then to show proof that they have moved on from that position. On the evidence posted here and from my own and my friends experiences I would say the evidence against some of the USA churches is condemning. Phil has of course been shown up. The evidence against Rice is growing. Others likewise. So far most of the evidence is for not against Steve Murrell. I wonder then whether you are clutching at straws in a deperate attempt to malign him for whatever reason.

Let me restate what I began with:

While Steve Murrell doesn't advertise his Maranatha origins on the Victory website - that is not the same as hiding or denying it.

And before you jump on me as being pro EN - please review my former posts. And no I am not part of Victory Christian Fellowship in Manila.

--stealth mode on - deflector shields up--

[dazzla (dazzla)]

speakword

Just wondering if you can assist me biblically on ths issue..

Am frantically thumbing the pages of my bible looking for something that for instance says that Mary Magdelane kept the red light above her front door.

Anything you can do point me in the right biblical direction ?

Yours repentantly

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Cupatea,

As a trained historian I don't need to clutch at straws when the whole haystack is mouldering in front of me.

If Steve Murrell publically admits that he and his fellow apostles started EN out of their association from Maranatha and that Maranatha was a failure and that many people were hurt, then I am very encouraged. Good. Now he should show some leadership and encourage others to follow suit in admitting (not advertising) the past.

The fact remains that on the EN website and other church websites there is mention of the tripartite friendship/partnership and the ministry to the Philipines, but no context is given and the name Maranantha is expunged. There is just this glorious and pure past that is alluded to. It is a subtle revisionism. Whether Murrell is directly and actively complicit in it I don't know? Perhaps the work of an overzealous or ignorant staffer or someone who is taking the lead from US sites.

I will take you at your word for now that he does not hide the fact in his direct dealings to his congregation of which you have direct knowledge.

As for "advertising". Your choice of words is an attempt to obfuscate and belittle my arguement.

And I am not asking for anyone to advertise their sins. We need to be honest and open. You can't say that the guiys started the Philipines church in a vacuum and that they were unrelated in any way to Maranatha.

You agree that there is problems with the US church. Well, the point there that I and others are making is that some of it is rooted in the past. Cutting Bonasso out is not dealing with the issues at heart. Just as removing Paul Daniel did stop the Cape Town church from having internal issues relating to him and its history of leadership etc.

As to advertising one's sins? May I suggest that Phil Bonnasso and Paul Daniel managed to do that all by themselves. In both instances people were well aware of issues regarding these gentlemen. Perhaps two empty chairs at the next IAT or board meeting will be a reminder (let's even use "advertisement" or "writing in the sand") to the others seated there that humility and truth beats out prestige, pride and position anytime.

Might I suggest Redbush tea? No caffeine.

[cupatea (cupatea)]

Speakword - I agree a lot of the problems are rooted in the past and that there is a history of painting over the cracks.

But Redbush tea has got me confused. Is that a brand or am I missing a deeper meaning here?

--whoops - back to stealth mode--

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Dazzla

Thank you. Like Mary I hope that our hearts are melted and we all see the error of our ways as Jesus encounters us with His love and Truth and not hardened further. Our devotion and focus should be on Him.

Jesus knew who Mary was and still loved her. If she is the person mentioned in Luke 7 then the Pharisees knew who she was and hated her, not because of their hatred of sin, but fear of contamination and association. When Jesus wrote in the sand he made a strong case against those who wanted to cast stones at her. I for one believe he recalled the pharisees' histories before them and deeply illustrated what an encounter with Truth can do. Agreed. Let's pursue this one. I am open for correction and discussion and I identify with Mary.

As to drawing a parallel with Mary and Every Nation? Well I can see your point, but I am not sure if the deification of the church institution would allow for such comparisons. EN is not a person.

The fact is we all stand accused on either side. Let Jesus be the judge yes! But as to remaining silent on injustice, lies and deception. Never!

Mary never hid the fact of who she was. She knew and He knew it. Bullied and battered by her religious leaders, Jesus chose to love her. She was accepted and her past was no longer a factor in this. Such was her honesty and ability to face people with the reality of who she had been and whom she had become. Jesus inserted himself directly into history and is the meeting point at which all our histories are converted into a place of Truth, Light and Forgiveness wherever we may let Him.

She was the first human witness to the resurrection: it allows us to see the beauty of the first credible and entrusted witness to the Victory of Jesus over sin and death.

The fact that Jesus chose a woman and this woman(with little legal rights in the law of the time)shows the relevance of His transforming Gospel and the importance He places on the downtrodden, rejected and despised whom He has redeemed. She ramains a supreme example and deserves the rightful title of Apostle to the Apostles.





(Message edited by speakword2004 on October 28, 2005)

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Cupatea,

I think we were both a little cranky this morning. Redbush tea is a common South African tea that does not contain any stimulus to one's nerves. My comment was facetious and tongue in cheek.

I am somewhat befuddled on your agreement that cracks were painted over. Tht was not the sense I got from the previous post. Are you saying that Murrell has not done this at all and that others are more directly responsible?

[cupatea (cupatea)]

I am totally saying that others are more directly responsible. My observation of the history of the Maranatha 'breakup' and the ongoing ministries was that Victory had been semi independent for a while before the 'breakup'. Steve Murrell then led Victory through a period of repentance for what had occurred. I have visited both Victory churches in Manila and also others planted in other parts of Asia and I the old Maranatha connections have never been hidden. Rather I have heard them used as examples of where not to go.

I've also observed that until recently Steve was only spending a few weeks a year in the USA and much of that time was doing his own support raising - he has never accepted a single peso from the Philippine Victory churches but has lived on support all these years. I don't think he realised a lot of the latent Maranathaism in the churches in the USA. When he did he spoke up against it - an example would be the public rebuking of Phil a few years ago. Naiviety? I don't think so. Too much trust in Rice - definately. Totally innocent - well no one ever is. But I do believe he is repentant because his actions speak that this is the case.

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Public correction of Phil? This is the first I hear of that. And what has Rice Broocks done wrong to your knowledge?

Do you think that the "Maranathaism" could have
infected other churches besides those in the US?

Are you then in agreement with Aletheia's word posted on the top of this page? Why must only Murrell survive a purge of the leadership: you refer to evidence that he has repented. Again, I must take your word on that. I must also await a further statement as to where from here. Like me, I am sure that you hope for no more papering over cracks.

(

(Message edited by speakword2004 on October 28, 2005)

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Matthew 3:4-12 (NKJV) - emphases mine... I felt led to post this, since the phrase "fruits of repentance" has been on my heart for several days.

blessings, ulyankee

4 Now John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him 6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

[john_r_jones (john_r_jones)]

If I might chime in on Steve Murrell and my experience with him. I saw Steve in Manila years ago when all this got started He and Debra were in the background while Rice and Phil promoted Al Manamtam as the pastor or evangelist or whatever the title of fair haired boy. Steve became the pastor after Al took off; I didn't see the self-aggrandizement of others in Maranatha. Having been in Maranatha myself I still have Maranatha-isms that I have to contend with like arrogance. To be able to speak to EN someone who is credible and an example of how leadership is the role of a servant would seem to be an ideal circumstance. Matthew a tax collector has significant insight and familiarity with scripture-he was probably a cynic converted by Jesus. Steve or anyone else who has any sway with EN hopefully has experienced the transforming love of Jesus, which has a way of cutting through our facades.

Dazzala, some historian decided that Mary of Magdela was a prostitute. Currently some offer a possibility that she was a businesswoman or in the case of the DaVinci Code folks Jesus' paramour. Either way history doesn't cast her in a flattering light. On the other hand her out pouring of love literally and figuratively gave Jesus pause, for her act acknowledged He was the Messiah. I find the scene depicted here fascinating; thousands of years hence we read of one woman's worship in an awkward manner being memorialized by Jesus. Where the proceeds came from for her offering if they were indeed from prostitution or elsewhere give me insight into how Jesus relates to us. The human condition is on full display here Mary's gift though odd was both heartfelt and prescient. The disciples disdain for her as a person and the significance of her worship, and Jesus the very human, very God acceptance of Mary and her worship. We mistake power for authority for Mary's act certainly was frowned on by those who had power even though they were Jesus' friends yet He exercised His authority in memorializing it. How the simple devotion of Mary was missed by the disciples then and now; we miss the Messiah in pursuing His ministry instead of Him.

Finally Jesus is the central figure of the scriptural account of the gospels everyone else revolves around Him. I view this account not as a cookbook of nostrums and formulae, but of a portrayal of an as yet unexplained conundrum Jesus as the human face of God. He himself told us if we've seen him we've seen the Father. How human interaction had its effect on Him in a profound way? In His gaze over Jerusalem He wept at their hardness, He chuckled at Judas who betrayed Him in the sardonic manner of a kiss. We aren't an obscurity to God who knows us well, even better than we ourselves aren’t, and He pursues us.
John

[cupatea (cupatea)]

speak - Steve's rebuke of Phil is public knowledge since it was done in public. Ginger has also referred to it serveral times on FactNet. Yes I have first hand experience to know that Maranathaisms are having an ongoing affect in some none US churches. I have also seen churches which have been adopted into EN with nonEN Pastors which have developed Maranatha like qualities way too suddenly for my liking. You can take my word or you can ask me for the recording I mentioned. I think you misunderstand me though. I have no doubts that there are serious issues EN needs to deal with open repentance. My issue was with you claiming Steve was complicit because the Victory website contained "Not a word about Maranatha." That is neither showing him as complicit or otherwise.

Bill Mack - "Mr. stealth mode tea sipper" - you crack me up!!! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif And I'm glad I'm not condemned to rot in my cell in hell this time!

You said:

<font color="0000ff">"if these counterfeit leaders would have changed, they would have left scholarly papers documenting the change so as to be a mark to go forward from"</font>

I agree to a point. In Steve's case I think the recorded messages are proof in themselves. Rice missed his big opportunity when he wrote ENiOG. In Phil's case as speak has noted - he advertised his own sin well enough which clearly showed where he stood on the repentance issue.

Painting over crevices indeed. More like the image of Ezekiel 8 when God took him to the temple and he looked in the crack in the temple wall:


7 And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold, there was a hole in the wall. 8 Then said he to me, "Son of man, dig in the wall"; and when I dug in the wall, lo, there was a door. 9 And he said to me, "Go in, and see the vile abominations that they are committing here." 10 So I went in and saw; and there, portrayed upon the wall round about, were all kinds of creeping things, and loathsome beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel. 11 And before them stood seventy men of the elders of the house of Israel, with Ja-azani'ah the son of Shaphan standing among them. Each had his censer in his hand, and the smoke of the cloud of incense went up. 12 Then he said to me, "Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the dark, every man in his room of pictures? For they say, `The LORD does not see us, the LORD has forsaken the land.'" 13 He said also to me, "You will see still greater abominations which they commit."

[formermaranathapastor (formermaranathapastor)]

Do we have the text of Steve's rebuke of Phil?

[cupatea (cupatea)]

I'm not sure who has it. Ginger referenced it at http://www.factnet.org/factnetcgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&amp;post=197465#POST197465 but I seem to recall her saying it had been destroyed. I'd love to hear it too if anyone has it. However I have heard from others besides Ginger who were there who testify to it happening.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

cupatea, Ginger's post was in reference to the creating planets statement, no?

I have also been told that various EN leaders have made references to astrology and the pyramids. I won't say who they are b/c I have not been able to verify this other than what people have recalled, and I submit that maybe these recollections are in error. But it sounds similar to what coppertree remembers from Maranatha leadership meetings. Though as speakword said a day or two ago... there is no proof that there is a hidden theology or secret adepts. But one wonders why the Purple Book of Biblical Foundations is purple and has foundations in its title. Or why the Hall of Champions in ENiOG includes Comenius (a known Rosicrucian) and Zinzendorf (who at the very least promoted Rosicrucian ideals, headed at least two secret societies, and was keenly interested in Christian Kabbalah and mysticism). Or why Dr. Mansfield states we'll all be Celtic in heaven, or why his series of books on so-called Christian leaders includes two prominent Freemasons.

Perhaps where I see smoke there is no fire. I do not wish to cross the line into mere "conspiracy theory." But I would be amiss if I didn't say I see smoke.

Let those who have eyes to see and ears to hear test this and understand what I am saying here. Perhaps this is all just the result of coincidence or ignorance. But perhaps it is not.

But the Lord is impressing this upon me very strongly today... LOOK FOR THE FRUIT IN KEEPING WITH REPENTANCE.

blessings,
ulyankee

[cupatea (cupatea)]

ul - the 'official' line on the purple book colour is that the original printer in the Philippines made the mistake and it should have been printed blue not purple. Once it was printed and started being refered to as 'The Purple Book' it made no sense to change the colour.

I too am wary of crossing over into conspiracy theory which is why I questioned speak in the first place.

As you say you need to call out smoke it you see it, fire or no fire. "To lose one may be regarded as a misfortune," said Lady Bracknell. "To lose two would look like carelessness."

Indeed look for the fruit in keeping with reprentance. Personally I pray that Alethia's word may be true.

But for now I have to go stealth again. I will not be on the board for a while so I apologise in advance if I have left questions unanswered.

(Message edited by cupatea on October 28, 2005)

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

thanks, cupatea.

I too pray there is no fire and that the smoke is just that. Sometimes the broiler in my stove will make the smoke alarm go off when there is really no danger, but I'm still glad the smoke alarm is there to alert us if and when there is a real fire. And I pray with you that aletheia's word is true... that there is a season of repentance.

blessings,
ulyankee

[40days40years (40days40years)]

The thing that bothers me a little about this Word even if its true:

For those who do not repent, lifelong covenant relationships will be broken and a restructuring of leadership will take place.

Covenent relationships (which always seem to get broken) and the controlling theology around it is why this ministry is in trouble. Why not just read about God and Abraham or the Father and Jesus and leave it alone? I remember when I was at the satellite prayer meeting in Maranatha when Bob Weiner told everybody at a spur of the moment to grab a person next to them and make a covenent with them and promise to God that they would be long term prayer partners and would be accountable to each other on a regular basis/long term. I would'nt do it because I did not want to make promises to God I knew I would not keep but most made those promises and broke them.

(Message edited by 40days40years on October 30, 2005)

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

40days40years,

Hi!

Would you like a copy of a CDROM that has a compilation of articles, audio and video files on MCM/MSI/ENC ?

You sound like some of the rest of us who love God and simply will never again tolerate the ongoing heresy from this deadly cult that uses mind-control ("thought-reform" or "unwanted behavior modification" for the politically correct), financial swindles like Greater Ministries scam, scores of front organizations, lies, scripture twisting, heiarchial pyramid schemes, blaspheming the Holy Spirit by attributing manifestations from ritual magic as being "from God" etc. etc.

Do you have any literature, tape recordings and/or other Maranatha/Morning Star International material you could share?

Were you aware that Maranatha started as an offshoot of the New Order of the Latter Rain movement?

--Bill

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

40years, good point. One of the things I've been mentioning privately to friends that I'll say here publicly is that I hope and pray that there is repentance of making and relying upon covenants with men as we see not just in EN but similar movements...

Covenant relationships, accountability relationships, discipleship relationships, etc. alone do not keep one from sin, nor do they keep one saved, as was taught both overtly and implicitly in my former church. The Holy Spirit does. There's a big difference between containing sin and surrendering to Jesus' grace and mercy through repentance. Containment of sin will ALWAYS fail because it depends on the will of man.

Discipleship as in teaching people to do all that Jesus commanded, yes. Discipleship (or covenant) as in we will sin without a "discipleship relationship," no. Without the Holy Spirit, we will sin otherwise, period.

What happens if the person you are covenanted with falls into sin and resists correction? What happens if you are covenanted to a (false) leader who either teaches heresy or supports the heresy being taught?

A big mess.

I had to break covenant to leave my former church. BUT I also had to repent of ever covenanting in the first place. And put my ministry calling aside (turned out it wasn't what I thought it was anyway!), covenant relationships, "spiritual family," etc. for Jesus. I was caught in that big mess, and the only way out was to obey the Lord and repent of my role in it. For as Jesus said, Let your yes be yes and your no, no; anything beyond that comes from the evil one.

BTW, does anyone know if EN leaders are in covenant relationships with others outside EN? I know when Maranatha broke up they publicly stated that even though the ministry was being dissolved, the covenant relationships were still in place.

blessings,
ulyankee

[overflow763 (overflow763)]

Hey bill I'm still waiting for that CD. I'd love to see the info you've uncovered. Email me at life763@sbcglobal.net if you need my address again. Do you know of any occult practices within the leadership of Maranatha/Morningstar or what ever their name is this month...

Peace

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Steve Murrell makes a passing reference to the "Every Nation re-org" in his most recent blog:

http://www.stevemurrell.com/content/view/62/11/

He states that he's talked about it, so apparently it's been discussed publicly elsewhere besides here. Can anyone elaborate further, besides what we already know about the fiscal audit and oversight by 40-50 outside Christian leaders (and does anyone know who any of them are)?

blessings,
ulyankee

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

overflow763,

I apologize for the delay. I've been pretty busy studying the esotericism behind Maranatha. Your CD will be sent off soon.

The most fascinating aspect of what we are seeing in Maranatha and the New Order of the Latter Rain is based upon man's desire to union himself to God through other methods outside of what Christ did on the cross at Calvary. The theosophical constructs that Weiner tapped into are centuries old and really are classic gnostic beliefs that anybody can discover, providing of course that they get beyond mere suspicion that something is off and follow through with a basic investigation.

The Emperor Constantine told the Popes to rename the pagan planet gods such as Jupiter, Mars, the Sun, etc. after the names of the Saints. He figured this would privide a bridge for the European populace to go from their pagan witchcraft belief system to Christianity. This is exactly what Rome did.

In the course of my investigation, I have pipointed the gnostic bridges from pagan sources that used Christian names and metaphors and applied them for the purpose of keeping the European populace worshipping the ancient pagan gods, the spiritual warfare system, and the idea that man can change the world back to the pre-Adamic fall -- towards a Utopian Society. I hope to provide quotes and sources later, but needless to say, it is astonishing that the NOLR has ripped off $millions of dollars and trashed so many people's lives over the last 50 years without any true exposure of the classic gnostic system from which it was derived.

God Bless you!

--Bill

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Bill, could part of that union be made through covenants where someone likely doesn't know exactly who or what they're covenanting to? And if one finds out, well, it's too late b/c you're already covenanted to "spiritual family" and you've been imparted with "spiritual DNA," which means you can't leave? This was one of the arguments made to me when I was considering leaving my former church.

(In real life: through Jesus Christ we can be forgiven!)

blessings,
ulyankee

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

overflow763, you may want to look at coppertree's posts on that issue... where I've seen smoke, coppertree's apparently seen sparks (no pun intended, for those who might see a pun).

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

ulyankee,

Yes! Absolutely! These people won't tell you who they have covenanted with. If they did, people would leave be the droves since they didn't think they were involuntarily entering into a legal agreement between them an an entitee they have no say about.

These leaders think that we are somehow their "property" to do with as they see fit. This is why Bruce Harpel, Jonathan Bislew and other MCM/MSI/ENC false leaders blurt out on occasion, "He's mine!" or "She's mine!"

Sorry, but involunary servitude by covenant or declaration is totally unacceptable.

ulyankee, I'm glad you brought this up, because just as I was typing this, it came to mind an event that happened to Ronald Reagan shortly after he took office. It has been reported that a Freemason stood up and "declared" Ronald Reagan a Freemason. This supposedly rare Freemasonic practice is known as declaring someone a "sight mason" since he becomes a mason "on sight" or "in situ" by declaration. This practice by Bruce Harpel and others may further indicate their "fraternal" foundation. At this point, there are just way too many indications to think otherwise.

Harpel did tell me once that he felt "something lift of me" when he was prayed over from "spirits of Freemasonry" but this is a mute point since everything about the entire New Order of the Latter Rain screams that they are indeed an "Order" and they think that they are entering into a "New Kingdom Age" by forcing everyone to accept a unified "Christ Consciousness" through the Biblical metaphor found in Joel 2 referring to a Latter Rain. When combined with the identical objectives and methodology of the Freemasons, Rosicrucians, etc. I believe, based upon thorough written, oral, and video documentation that what we are seeing is either a recognized or a "clandestine" Freemasonic Order that perhaps pre-dates its 1947 beginnings.

Time and further research should clear up all the remaining questions.

Have a super day! Time for another lecture in Body, Soul and Spirit in Renaissance Medicine.

--Bill

[aletheia (aletheia)]

The term "covenant relationships" mentioned in the 8/26/05 post above does not infer Maranatha/MSI/EN covenant terminology, but rather the Hebrew word chesed. Chesed is a rich word with multiple meanings in the Bible ranging from "lovingkindness" to "covenantal loyalty."

A breach of faith among senior MSI/EN leaders in covenant relationships (once based on mutual loyalty in service to God) would result in broken friendships.

I pray for true repentance to take place among MSI/EN leaders that they may one day be transformed into "Repairer(s) of the Breach" (Isaiah 58:12b).

aletheia

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

"Chesed" has a bad connotation with me. A NOLR false leader named Bob Whitesel formed a youth group I was once involved with. He too forced the members to commit to loyalty to him while he was for years committing psycho-sexual adultery with two Christian girls in this youth group. He finally got caught and admitted this had been going on for years -- another sorry account similar to the deal with Tony Fetchel. A court trial ensued and the final out-of-court settlement was that Bob Whitesel could never return to Minnesota again. He never repented and today his is listed as part of Wagner's NAR. One of his books is entitled, "Staying Power" which indicates he is mocking others in spite of his continued iniquity, sin and transgression. Oh, and he's a leader in Indiana today as well.

They just never learn even in spite of lawsuits and getting caught. Like Bruce Harpel, they "just don't care."

I do not believe these MSI false leaders will ever qualify for being "repairers of the breach." I used to believe this, but after stealing $100's of $1000 of dollars over 30 years, I wouldn't trust them, their wives or their children ever again. I make no apologies for my attitude either.

Keep your hopes up though. Jesus stated in the end of Matthew that "many false Christs would arise" and we are simply witnessing what He prophesied.

Make sure you zero-in on the theosophy behind the acts of heresy, otherwise you will simply return to the same camp.

Kim Clement is a heretic. He is cut from the same cloth as Weiner, Ball, Broocks, Murrell, Bonasso, etc.

Judgment has already started to fall on the NOLR and all its machinations. It might be just like when many Vineyard leaders died around the same time as John Wimber in 1997. They never seem to learn, but that doesn't mean you have to be in their darkness.

Blessings,

--Bill

[40days40years (40days40years)]

To: aletheia, (I will try not to call you Athalia but your name looks so similar, just joking ;)- the thing is the Word mentioned talked about broken covenents not broken friendships. People with MSI/EN backgrounds are going to think of the term covenent in that context and the Spirit that gave that word knows it.

ulyankee, your NOLR links were good I agree about your views on covenents. When you think about it why are folks trying to impose agreements, covenents and contracts on the sheep? It's about control, fencing them in with man created obligations. Paul and Timothy had a mentor, discipleship relationship based on their free wills, love and friendship I doubt it was imposed on them! not, "o.k were going to be accountable and committed to each other if you are resisting it just shows that your not 100% committed"

THE REST IS FOR BILL AND ANYONE ELSE WHO ENJOYS LONG WINDED RAMBLINGS.


Bill Mack, I had most of Bobs published stuff from the mid 80's but threw it away because it hurt to much just looking at it. You got a problem I bet because the people who had this stuff and left probablly threw it out http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif. To be honest it was'nt very annointed stuff anyway. I would like a CD, please send me an email with your email address to ______________

Bill I did not know that Maranatha was so tied to NOLR. I was born again in Maranatha but had a traditional fundamentalist understanding of theology before joining Maranatha around late 83. I was blessed by many NOLR influenced Maranatha people who genuinly seem to love God and move in the power of the Holy Spirit. I have encountered NOLR influenced Christians outside of Maranatha as well who seem to be humble servants of Christ. I don't want to discount their experiences with the Holy Spirit, the whole subject scares me a bit.

I do have a question concerning the sin nature. Maranatha taught that when your born again you no longer have a sin nature. Is that NOLR teaching? I never believed that teaching because it is obvious Paul struggled with his sin nature and the fact is that if you get a born again husband and wife together they produce kids who sin quite easily. In fact the MCM,MSI,EN leadership also seem to sin quite readily even though they are not suppose to have a sin nature at all. Does EN believe that believers have no sin nature and its remnant is washed away by baptism?

I will agree that the manifest sons of God theology is ridiculous, I had a book by John G. Lake who walked in great miracles but I threw the book out because the guy kept talking about being God men, not Christ like but actual God men. I have read famous modern NOLR faith teachers deny the atonement, when in Marantha nobody said these things in my presence, the congregation would have walked and I am sure that most MCM/MSI/EN people don't agree with it.

Maranatha could never really sell their endtime theology to the congretation as well and would avoid the Post millenial subject outside of just screaming take dominion!. Most refused to believe the foolishness that most of Revelations has been fulfilled, the Antichrist came and went (who was he?), a 200 million man asian army is'nt literal, the mark of the beast and his number is not literal...etc.

And lets not forget that after the great tribulation Jesus returns and disposes of a wicked worldy system by force, he saves the believers who are overcome by the evil one for a bit. I know that I am not living in the great tribulation right now and it has not started because things are just to nice and I just don't believe it happened in the past and lets remember after the great tribulation Christ returns and saves the world from a wicked world system and prevents man from destroying himself (100 years ago man could'nt destroy himself if he tried). Then comes the millenium where all know the Lord. I could talk all night about non sensical nature of Maranatha end time theology.

I guess since that theology was created hundreds of years ago those men back then created a system where the book of Revelations was not literal since literal interpretion of Bible prophecy depends on a literal Israel which did not exist hundreds of years ago.

(Message edited by 40days40years on November 06, 2005)

[pilgrim (pilgrim)]

Hi 40 days40yearws and everyone,

The following is what I understand by reading my bible about the end times and the second coming of Christ. I also wish to encourage everyone to test with the scriptures what I said and to correct me is necessary.

Read Mattew 24 the whole chapter and then read verses 21 and verses 29 to 31. It looks like we are going to go through the tribulation before Jesus Christ returns i.e. before the rapture of his church.

1 Corinthians 15:52 says that we shall be changed at the last trumpet, it looks like the last trumpet is the seventh trumpet in the book of revelation.

2 Thesalonians 2:3-4 says that Jesus will not come back untill the antichrist is revealed. I believe that we are going to go through the tribulation before the Jesus Christ returns so we should be prepare.

Read also revelation 13:16-18

Look at the following websites to see pictures of Microchips implans/ RFID's, Veri chips and Veri pay.

www.soldierofthelord.4t.com/photo.htm (http://www.soldierofthelord.4t.com/photo.htm)

www.soldierofthelord.4t.com/photo2.html (http://www.soldierofthelord.4t.com/photo2.html)


Signs before the end and the second coming of Jesus Christ

Please read the following verses from your own bible because I have not written the bible verses but I have written my own little comentary about the verses

Rev. 16:15 Jesus said, behold, I came as a theif.(Please note that this verse was written in revelation after the antichrist is revealed Rev. 13:16-18 and Rev. 14:8-12 the saints were going through the tribulation)

1 Thes. 4:16-18 We will meet the Lord in the air (I think that Jesus will come this way because they are going to be many false Christs in the earth and God wanted to be sure that we are not tricked into following a false christ.) Read also Acts 1:11.



2 Thes. 2:3-4 A falling away (apostacy) will come first and the anticrist will be revealed before Jesus comes back. The son of perdition (antichrist) will sit in the temple in jerusalen and proclaim himself to be God. Read also Mark 13:14.

Mattew 24:5; Mark 13:5-6 and Luke 21:8 For many shall come on Jesus's name saying, I am Chirst; and shall deceive many.(One example of this is the manifest sons of God latter rain heresy). Read also Mattew 24:23-27; Mark 13:21-23

Some of the False Christs

The following websites explain the manifest son's of God (Manchild) latter rain heresy and the conection to the heresy of the Joel's army

www.thechristianexpositor.org/page44.html (http://www.thechristianexpositor.org/page44.html)

www.deceptioninthechurch.com/fprophets.html (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/fprophets.html)
Look at the false profesy about the birth of the Manchild (the Manchild is a false Christ)



Mathew 24:21-22 For then shall be a great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time.no.nor ever shall be. the bilble also said in verse 22 that if the days of the tribulation were not shortened no flesh would be saved and that for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. Read also Mark 13:19-20 and Luke 21:12-19.

Read the following verses that shows that we are going to be well into the tribulation before the second coming of Christ

Mattew 24:29-31 and 36 ( No one knows the day and the hour of Jesus return but we know that is going to be apostacy, great tribulation and the son of perdition will be revealed before it happens.) Read also Mark 13:24-27 and Luke 21:27.

I feel worry and sad when I think that many of the people who believe in the unbiblical doctrine of the pretribulation rapture might feel desperate and confuse when the tribulation starts and they might end up been deceived into accepting the false Christs, the anticrist and even the mark of the beast. We need to open our bibles and test with the scriptures everything that is taught to us.




God bless you


pilgrim

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

40years, you said that Bob Weiner's stuff wasn't really "anointed"... perhaps it is because it was instead plagiarized from Bill Britton, according to one of the members of the former ad-hoc committee I've personally spoken with.

Bill Britton's (http://www.pawcreek.org/articles/endtimes/DominionTheologyandJoelsArmy.htm) writings promote what I would consider to be hard-core Sonship/Manifest Sons of God teachings.

Also, regarding word-faith teachers denying the atonement... could you be more specific? You can write me at ulyankee@yahoo.com if you think it would sidetrack the discussion here too much.

And while eschatology is considered a Christian "non-essential," it is possible to hold an extreme eschatological position that at its root is based on compromised essentials of the faith... for example, a millennial position that assumes that "we" are Jesus Christ and just need to wake up to that fact and take dominion is highly problematic, imho, not because of the millennial or even the dominion aspects of that position but because it's based on mistaking who and what Jesus Christ is. At the beginning of this whole "deal" I used to be "pre-mil, pre-trib," and I'm not any more - while I still consider myself pre-mil, my shift toward more mid or even late-trib happened after I left MSI/EN btw. But I don't think I'm Christ, nor do I think I/we have all Christ's power, authority, etc. to take literal governmental or social authority over earth now, as I had heard some say we did during my season in MSI/EN.

blessings,
ulyankee

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Titus

I felt like reacting back there for about a minute and then one of my staff offered me a cup of tea. Hmmm. I think I will go with the tea instead. Three spoons of sugar please.

[aletheia (aletheia)]

Titus - Paul Cain was very close to his mother, maybe even a momma's boy. Often that is the case with guys struggling with homosexuality, especially if the mother is domineering.

When I heard Cain speak soon after his mother passed away, he seemed so empty...I wondered if the grief was more than he could bear, and backslid to his old life (well hidden from the public).

On the one hand, I pitied the man, but I also felt "ripped off" being forced to sit under his teaching by our pastor.

Still, I pray that his life will be redeemed...(Psalm 40).





(Message edited by aletheia on November 05, 2005)

[john_r_jones (john_r_jones)]

I was watching a play last night-to paraphrase one of the lines, "Life isn't a Christmas tree to be rolled out of the closet once a year and returned...". I thought Jesus sought to convey that to us, our life isn't a once a year ritual where a priest stands in proxy for us in the Holy of Holies to experience for the rest of us God's presence. Or in some other ceremony or feast throughout the year. Peter sought to build boothes on the Mount of Transfiguration his response out of tradition to ritualize his experience. Nor do I believe Jesus called us to swallow Him up in some cause, "The poor you will always have with you, you will not always have me with you." He told His disciples "I am the bread of life". Imagine seeing Jesus tear the bread that evening as he held it up a symbol of how He shortly would be likewise held up. He said "Take eat this is my body", He then took the cup, "This is the blood of the new covenant given for you, for as often as you eat the bread and drink the cup, do it in remembrance of me." Sometimes now as then the reality of what Jesus did escapes us, He didn't initiate a new religion, ritual or circumstance for acceptable practice and behavior. He gave of Himself and called us to do likewise, He asked us to remember Him not wrapped in lights and tinsel. Not glamorized, ceremonialized, or depersonalized, He asked us to join Him.

The nominative gospel of John declares the "I Am" of Jesus in fact when they came to arrest Him that night in response to their query if He was the one they sought He replied "I am" in the same vernacular as the old testament statement by God, "I am, that I am." The power of those words uttered that night was enough to cause that armed ragged band of the night to fall backwards, small wonder it didn't split the planet in two. The purpose of the Christological element of John's gospel became evident in John's words ..."that you might believe that Jesus is the Messiah." Scripture records no great explanation on Jesus' part on how caring God is save His life lived and given. In ressurection He is strangely silent with recriminations and similarly with instructions other than to tarry for the Holy Spirit to indwell them and in turn us. This would lead and guide them and us into all truth he said. His use of common elements of communion belied the centuries of elaborate ritual and religious facade which cause some to stumble particularly today.

One of the characters in this play lamented over his life cut short by terminal illness; "What was being cut short? His house, yard, the den, the lawnmower." This constituted his life which he found empty. In our modern existence we amass things some have common use, some supposedly nobel yet as the play states we all die. In Jesus' story there was no lamentation over death and the loss of His stuff, following His example Paul exclaims "For me to die is gain." Jesus' death and life weren't empty, they aren't empty now. I've traveresed some ground here in my life of realizing Jesus is the Messiah not locked in a religion as stale as January's Christmas tree, as hard as a marshmallow easter egg discoverd under the couch in August, or in the disillusionment of some man's supposed gospel. I returned to the table, a common table where He beconed me and you to join Him and particularly to remember Him. I suppose He understood human nature well enough that it would be tempting to wrap Him up, light Him up and loose sight of Him. The messiah born in a stable grew in His awareness of who He was some where between crying for His milk and the sermon on the mount. Who He was-is called the poor, the feeble, even the doubter, He is a friend to those in grief then and now. He ate with criminals and cynics or like me criminal cynics.
John

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

aletheia,

Regarding Paul Cain, you said,

"Still, I pray that his life will be redeemed...(Psalm 40)."

The olny way Cain will ever be redeemed is if he explains publicly where the NOLR declaration that "God is restoring the Apostles and Prophets" is coming from i.e. an unbiblical source. He needs to confess that he is not and never has been a prophet and that his involvement with William Branham in the early years of the NOLR was sin

It won't matter too much longer because the entire movement is now imploding. Way too many leaders being outed as homos and apostates for anybody to give them any more credibility. Same goes for all MCM/MSI/ENC leaders along with Bickle's IHOP, Bill Hamon's Christian Int'l Ministries, Rick Joyner's MorningStar (including his revamped Heritage Village USA) and all the Canadian-based Latter Rain cults such as:

The War College (another "School for the Prophets)
www.thewarcollege.com (http://www.thewarcollege.com)

The War Room
http://the-war-room.com/

The Sharon Brethren
http://thesharonstar.org/

etc. etc.

I see George Warnock is going all out spreading new MSOG lies with his new books too:

http://warnock.templebuilders.com/

These people have to continually evolve their message since many figure out who they are after some time. They are master shape-shifters just like Maitreya:

http://www.maitreya.org/
http://www.maitreya-edu.org/

Paul Cain has nowhere to go, even though he is currently linked to yet another prophetic ministry the last time I checked.

--Bill

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

<font color="119911"><font color="000000">The olny[sp] way [Paul] Cain will ever be redeemed is ....</font>

Hmmmmm..... That's not what my Bible says about redemption. Which bible are you using to say that?? <smile>


<font color="000000">And how exactly do you know that? He has openly admitted to being Latter Rain, his doctrine comes from them, and it's it is pretty obvious he is-his doctrine is 100% gnosticism.</font>

I believe the Latter Rain movement was not Gnostic and that it was primarily a move of God.


Titus said, "<font color="000000">This web site (and you) are about EN's non-repentance from its maranathan roots.</font>"

Titus, that helps me understand your perspective; many of your comments make better sense in light of reading it. I disagree completely with your statement, of course.

This site is dedicated to something completely different than one child's repentance for the sins of his parents, not that repenting for the sins of parents is Biblical anyway. I've never repented for the sins of my parents or grandparents and believe it is foolish for us to expect others to do so, whether they be individuals or organizations (such as EN). I find no need to repent for my parental roots, likewise EN should not repent for those of Maranatha. Granted, my perspective is different than yours in that I do not see Maranatha and EN as being the same organization and you appear to do so, hence our differing perspectives.


--SB</font>

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

I do agree that we do not repent for the sins of our parents root. Maranatha is NOT EN parents .Problem is Maranatha and EN are the same.The only thing that change is the name. It was never been a parent. So they should repent. Also to say that EN should NOT repent due to Maranatha, then maybe you should tell Steve Murrell that He should NOT have his entire ministry and church repented and apologized ? For even Steve Murrell NEVER stated that EN is Maranatha parents. He considers it as a past life, like example, we got born again and we do have a past, its being unbelievers and we learn from that mistakes. And to remind us NOT to repeat those mistakes again.

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

<font color="119911">ginger--

We disagree on whether or not Maranatha equals EN. So it is my belief that one organization (EN) cannot repent for the sins of another (Maranatha). I will go even further to say that people, not organizations, repent. I don't believe Jesus died for the sins of any organization therefore how can an organization repent? Only people can repent and they can only repent of their sins, not the sins of others. The closest one can get to "organizational repentance" is for the leader of that organization to repent of sins he committed as a leader of that organization. But even that's a stretch.


Titus--

I don't know what you're talking about. I've never repented for the sins of my ancestors. Nor could I. They're not my sins. You are making some wrong assumptions and jumping to some erroneous conclusions about what we believe.

--SB</font>

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

<font color="119911">titus--

"<font color="000000">you have to pray to remove curses passed down by your ancestors</font>" is not the same as repenting for the sins of your ancestors.

"<font color="000000">It's well documented your church follows...</font>" You have little idea what my local church believes as I doubt if you have ever even attended it for a significant period of time. So I still say that you are jumping to conclusions in saying that my church has its members seek repentance for sins their ancestors committed. I am obviously in a better place than you to know this but you are free to believe what you will as you have demonstrated often enough before.

--SB</font>

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi All- Catching up, on the last few posts here; about the latter rain and manifest doctrine in En. When this came forward in 1948, or so Assemblies Of God made a great stand against it. This can be viewed as a postion paper on their web site.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

cymbrogi, your church may not participate in Cleansing Stream (http://www.letusreason.org/curren21.htm), but other ENC churches do, including Kings Park (http://www.kpic.org/ministries/cleansingstream.html), Morning Star NY (http://www.msny.org/involved/cleansingstream.html), &amp; Grace Bible Church (http://gbcmaui.com/vli.html) in HI.

This may be somewhat moot since apparently Leo Lawson is no longer the head of the School of Campus Ministry, but his teachings on this subject were very similar to Cleansing Stream's - they were closest to the Kraft/Wagner deliverance model (http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1997i/Hart.html), though he also cited John Dawson (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel8.html) who is generally credited with bringing territorial "spiritual warfare" techniques into the evangelical and charismatic mainstream with his 1989 book, Taking our Cities for God (http://www.w3church.org/SpiritualMapping.html). (This CRI article (http://www.equip.org/free/DD075.htm) as well as this A/G position paper (http://ag.org/top/beliefs/Position_Papers/4176_possessed.cfm) summarizes what I've heard taught pretty well.) And even if Leo Lawson is no longer in his position, I would say it's safe to assume that most ENCM campus ministers in the US have sat under his teachings, and unless they have been corrected, would practice what they've learned.

Titus, correct me if I'm wrong, but when you say "your church," you mean EN in general, and cymbrogi, you mean your local church?

Spiritual Warfare is a Year 2 ENLI course "designed to give students and understanding of the weapons of our warfare and the tactics of the enemy." I don't have the notes for the revised Spiritual Warfare course, but perhaps someone else does.

I'm personally assuming that while not all EN churches may engage in "spiritual warfare" or "deliverance" (http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue78.htm) similar to the Cleansing Stream, Neil Anderson (http://www.equip.org/free/DA080.htm), or Kraft/Wagner models, it's certainly something that some may have practiced and/or have been exposed to - and particularly in the campus or youth ministries. I know this was taught/practiced in my former church, even though we didn't offer a formal Cleansing Stream program.

blessings,
ulyankee

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Here's the A/G position paper (http://ag.org/top/beliefs/Position_Papers/endtime_revival.cfm) Coppertree referred to, thanks.

[wiseasaserpentgentleasadove]

I find the word given by altheia here to be quite on target. I just wanted to go back and re-visit this thread. I had stopped visiting here back in Sep. so, there's some areas of catching up here that I want to do now. I just found this word interesting.

[wisedove]

Don't know what made me come here yet again today. I will say that the information about covenant relationships being broken sheds a light as to what might have led to Pastor Ray's leaving EN. Still wonder what he did with his covenant ring.