Were there any women in Maranatha staff meetings

[40days40years]

Especially in the early days. Was it only guys except for Rose Weiner of course? Are there any women in present EN meetings besides secretaries and coffee girls?

[40days40years]

Is this a trick question?

[wildwood_]

LOL...I dunno...you asked it! Was It?? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif! But if I had been a lady in Maranatha...(nice young Sister then of course....older, slightly crankier Sister now...but still a Sister in the Love of Jesus) the general phrase "besides secretaries and coffee girls" feels a lot like fingernails on a chalk-board...and I envision bringing you a cup of coffee along with Dovey (if she's not busy) and accidentally tripping in my haste as a "coffee girl" to get it to you...oops....hope you are wearing something washable & that you do like your coffee hot. There now I've gotten that thought out the way...

Hmmm and you do know that in the Corporate world..."Administrative Assistants" really are the brains behind the CEO,CFO,COO, and the HEART...especially the Heart...Love...reaches out....believes & hopes. From reading Tikie's Blog the answer would probably have been surely Sisters were there under whatever or whoever their appropriate "authority" or "covering" or "anointing" was in the Lord...that lasted apparently as long as it was in "agreement" with the Maranatha Vision for the "Kingdom"....sigh...and many tears have been shed by all... Too many. Now's time to stop crying, dry the tears and get on about our Daddy's Work...He's Here ALL the Time...and hasn't let anything done by "men or women" interrupt for long His Amazing Grace or the Miracle of Redemption through Jesus...seeds were sown...the Harvest is the Lord's not ours. God Bless All Those Broken Hearts who tried to serve Him in Love but felt so much pain...the Lord has promised to replace those tears with Joy. His Miracle...Inexplicable...Unimaginable...I haven't a clue how. I just know His WILL--Will be Done.

Now abide Faith, Hope and Love...the Greatest of these is Love....and sometimes I like the KJV word "Charity" because it reminds me it's a "Gift" to give to myself & to my Brothers & Sisters....

Maybe some questions just need to be left unanswered until we get to that Reunion in Heaven...What A PARTY!!! And I Shout AMEN & HALLELUJAH RIGHT BESIDE YOU...hmmm, I'll set my cup of coffee down first. Kona. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[sameo]

Well, in the verrry early days the young 'elders' weren't married for the most part, so I'm thinking it was all men..(somebody correct me if I'm wrong) but I know as time went by the 'elders' and/or pastors wives were there as well. The men (and Rose) ha would sit around the main big table and the wives would be sitting way beind them against the back wall usually. The ladies, some of them, would bring their needle work-while the meeting went on. Once in a blue moon if a wife felt really led to speak on an issue, they would pipe in with their two cents worth. And it was allowed.(i know, i said 'allowed') sic

[40days40years]

Thank you wildwood and sameo. O.K obviously if Bob and Rose made up their mind all they would need to do is say they had a revelation. On lesser issues it sounds like they would vote on things. Besides Rose were any women allowed to vote directly? How does it work in EN today with all those fancy boards? Are the wives in the boardroom with their husbands doing needle point? Or is it an all men affair except for the secretaries and coffee girls? You would think there would be a few women there involved with reaching other women, piping in and voting on issues?

[pilgrim]

40days40years,

I vaguely remember that in 1982 I was told by the elders that they did not have their wives or other women in the staff meetings. The reason was that they had to make very hard decisions in those meetings in things like church discipline ie decisions like putting a young woman in front of the whole church to be disciplined.

The elders said that women were much weaker emotionally than men and for this reason should no be present at the staff meetings. They thought that was the duty of the elders to protect their wives from being emotionally damaged so they kept their women away.
I do not know if they always kept the women away from staff meeting but I know that they did this at least during part of 1982. Perhaps after a new false and pathetic revelation.

It is sad that there was no one to protect other young girls emotionally from their wrong decisions and false revelations.

[osakadan]

like putting a young woman in front of the whole church to be disciplined

Sounds like something out of The Scarlet Letter. We had it relatively easy in Sydney.

[jesusisawesome]

Pilgrim, my recollection is a little different than yours. In the 7 years that I was a part of this ministry, I never saw anyone reprimanded in public. This was always handled behind closed doors (other than the gossip that resulted). People were maligned and blackballed, but during my time it was never from the pulpit.

Appearances were everything, and it was very important to keep the outer appearance towards the congregation as being above reproach. For example, we were told by Phil Bonasso, as a part of leadership, to never go forward in an altar call. We were to set the "example" so to speak, and if we had any sin that needed dealt with, we were to go to leadership in private.

Regarding leadership meetings, women were allowed to a certain extent. There were some meetings that were separate . . . women's meetings and men's meetings. However, when you reached the very top levels, there were some meetings without women. At least during my time. I don't know the practices after I left.

I was on staff with a church plant, and the women were included in all of the regular staff meetings. I think that the pastor and co-pastor had meetings with each other apart from the regular leadership team, but the women in leadership were not excluded from the regular staff meetings.

[sameo]

OK Pilgrim I do remember now that certain 'elders meetings' were ONLY the men. (and possibly Rose)thank you, this is true. The 'general' meetings(and seems like most MLTS's) the women were there. I do recall some elders meetings where only the men went. I had forgotten that. There was also the 'executive' board meetings...where i think only men went who were on that board.

I think that if ANY woman had anything to say in those meetings they could have. And some did, most certainly. And their opinions would be respected and considered.(if she had the nerve)It could be intimidating to the young, new wives at first. Even tho' the ladies did their needlework they were listening for the most part....those meetings could run long.

[sameo]

OH, oops JIA! you beat me to it. ;-)
I'll be your 'confirmation?' hehe

[maranatha1984]

JIA:This was always handled behind closed doors (other than the gossip that resulted). People were maligned and blackballed, but during my time it was never from the pulpit.

Tikie: A critical point. In my five years I saw it only once from the pulpit. It was much more insidious- the person would be counseled by two or three witnesses, the "shepherds" at the local ministry would meet weekly to discuss "sin" etc...so anyone shortfallings rapidly became "public" through the grapevine...and those so marked were now considered lesser beings until they showed repentence etc.

This is why newbies failed to "see" or comprehend what was going on. Why guest speakers (such as Winkney etc) were kept at arms length- and raved about the "troops" without really understanding WHAT was going on.

A casual oberver could NOT penetrate the veil. Oh they wouldhear the stuff about total commitment, and hear the prophecies and tongues and maybe freakout about that- but not ABOUT the real Issue- control control control.

The other issue was the 'special language" the code words, if you will, that had one meaning to the members but another to casual observers etc.

All of this is classic cult practice

[lablady2]

special words: Totally committed, on fire, radical, lukewarm, key people, army of God, going full time.

Just gave myself the willies.

[pilgrim]

jesusisawesome,

You wrote, "my recollection is a little different than yours. In the 7 years that I was a part of this ministry, I never saw anyone reprimanded in public. This was always handled behind closed doors (other than the gossip that resulted).
People were maligned and blackballed, but during my time it was never from the pulpit."

During my time in Maranatha I remember at 3 separate big church meetings 3 people were reprimanded in front of the whole church, 2 girls and 1 boy. As far as I know a person who was reprimanded in front of the whole church did not have any idea that this was going to happen till they were called to go in front of the church.

I remember one girl that I called MS in my previous posts was asked to stand up and go to the front of the church and was reprimanded in front of the whole church she said that she repented in front of the whole church but the elders did not believe her and they handed her to satan. We were not allowed to see her or say hello if we ever met her by chance in the street. After the meeting she was full of grief and she said that she felt like a whole building of ten floors fell over her.

Soon after this she became mentally ill and was in a mental hospital for some time. One of the girls from Maranatha was allowed to visit her in the hospital. Sadly she is still mentally ill today as far as I know. I last heard news of her over two years ago.

When she joined Maranatha she was working and studying. She was very clever and well balance in my opinion.

An innocent man, in my opinion, called Primitivo Plaza was also shunned but was not put in front of the whole church although the church was warned about him afterwards.

See in the history section of this board The History of Maranatha in Argentina.

Also see on this board go to Teachings/Bible/Practices and click Did you have or know about abusive interrogations?. Then read my posts in these sections.
Blessings
Pilgrim

[osakadan]

So sad. Leaves me speechless.

[maranatha1984]

Lab:special words:on fire, radical, lukewarm, key people, army of God, going full time

Tikie: hmm lets see if I can keep the chain going;

"word" (as in God has given me a word for you and this is what you had BETTER do)

"annointed" (meaning God has made me special and better get on board with what I am saying)

"Pastor" (as in I am Gods annointed see above)

"Elders" (double top secret agent with the inside word aka the Pope only ten times as active with many more revelations- and completely in fallible)

"Prophet" (see elder only they speak directly from God...ignore their words at your peril)

"Rob God" (give less than 10% plus fail to participate in special offerings)

"fallen" (someone consigned to hell because they had the termerity to disagree with leadership and if you had contact with them you could find yourself on a greased shoot- they were infectious)

"Brother can we talk?' (meaning- UR in deep do do)

"sin" (anything BAD that happened to you obviously was a result of sin in your life even if it was some stupid thing you did at the insistence of you Shepherd)

"servants heart" (some poor sucker who was made to do all of the cr*ppy and thankless jobs and got no notice except in staff meeting- being told that someone had a servants heart was the kiss of death meaning they could be worked like a slave but had no "potential")

"Lay it down" (give up something really important and meaningful to you because a) it took time away from the ministry and b) because it allowed someone to see if you were willing to prove your self.

Time for a hot shower!

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All
As was said on these threads before, there were and according to Dust and others, still going on in this group many levels of secret and also open involvement in the leadership and laity. Usually only the 'committed church" would attend these meetings. Seen in the light of Pilgrim's post. That takes on a new meaning,sorry to say. Some campus pastors did not know of other meetings occurring 82-89. There was a lot going on that didn't meet the eye, so to speak. When one was closed out of these, soon they were gone from the loop. There is a back story, yet to tell, so to speak.}

[jesusisawesome]

Pilgrim, thanks for sharing. The three that were reprimanded in front of the church, was this in Argentina?

[matt_hatter]

Very sad indeed. Nothing can cause more permanent damage to the psyche than public humiliation, especially involving something as sensitive as a personal failing. Isn't it interesting that Jesus publicly rebuked the religious people but found time alone with people like the woman at the well?

Pilgrim, your stories of Argentina have been haunting and filled with sadness. It has been my prayer for you as I have read them that God has and will continue to heal your heart.

Were James and Jamie T. involved in your fellowship? They left Auburn after the start-up and went to Argentina, I think.

[banshee]

I wasn’t a part of MCM, but a part of MS under Nasso, but as I recall only one person was ever publicly dealt with. One girl was asked to leave the house on Menlo and after prayer meeting on Saturday, we were all told we shouldn’t speak with her, if we saw her on campus, be polite, say hello, but do not have a conversation. She’s spreading lies and we’d be better off avoiding her.

another girl was sent away basically for not being the sharpest tool in the shed, and I mean, I loved her in Christ (and that’s the only way you could, lol), but I drove halfway across the country one time with the girl and I wanted to drop-kick her by the time I got rid of her. Still, that’s not a reason to kick someone out of a ministry. I mean, she didn’t do anything DOCTRINALLY wrong. Locking your keys in the car or losing your Bible is annoying, but not a cause for expulsion.

another girl, who was a good friend of mine, wanted to attend the Providence Foundation(?) one summer, but was told by her disciplers that “We don’t feel it’s God’s will, you can go, but you’ll be going without our covering”, yeah way to not manipulate someone into what you want, NOT. They had “spoken to God” and apparently God was worried that this sister was trying too hard to “compete with the guys”, although it’s ironic that none of the guys were going to the meeting. In fact, the only person who went from our house (about 20 people) was a GIRL, so either God can’t tell girls and boys apart or it was a very subtle dig at the girl who DID go.

Meanwhile, us guys were doing all sorts of stupid things, like smoking cigars on the roof, and we sort of got a slap on the wrist. I mean, my personal experience is that guys could get away with a h*** of a lot more stuff (pun intended) than girls in Morning Star.

[jesusisawesome]

Banshee: One girl was asked to leave the house on Menlo and after prayer meeting on Saturday, we were all told we shouldn’t speak with her, if we saw her on campus, be polite, say hello, but do not have a conversation. She’s spreading lies and we’d be better off avoiding her.

JIA: This is how things were handled in general when I was a member of the staff house. Anyone that disagreed with leadership was quickly put down, and if they didn't "bend and repent", they were asked to leave, and people were told not to associate with them . . . they were rebellious and spreading lies.

I had some wonderful friends that had some of the softest hearts towards God, but they were a little too independent.

Banshee: my personal experience is that guys could get away with a h*** of a lot more stuff (pun intended) than girls in Morning Star.

I agree Banshee . . . one foolish comment from my lips, something that was repented of, and none of my dedication to the ministry meant anything. I was labeled a Jezebel, when before I was told that I was the exact opposite "an example of a gentle and quiet spirit that is precious in the sight of the Lord" . . . and the pastor that called me Jezebel had previously commented on me in a staff meeting as being an example. One comment, repented of, and I was an undesirable.

[jesusisawesome]

Tikie: "servants heart" (some poor sucker who was made to do all of the cr*ppy and thankless jobs and got no notice except in staff meeting- being told that someone had a servants heart was the kiss of death meaning they could be worked like a slave but had no "potential")

JIA: Maybe I was an exception to the rule Tikie, but it was different for me. I didn't have a "platform" so to speak and was more of a quiet, soft-spoken nature . . . not your natural leader. My step into leadership came more through the route of serving. At the same time I helped Phil and Karen, I was also involved with the campus outreach. It ended up turning into a double-edged sword for me when I went on the church plant. If I wasn't following up on a girl and having bible studies, etc., then I was behind the scenes on the support side . . . to the point where my whole life was wrapped up in ministry and I really didn't have any balance or personal time, because anything leadership asked of me, I did. I was headed towards major burn-out.

[pilgrim]

jesusisawesome,

You asked, "The three that were reprimanded in front of the church, was this in Argentina"?

Yes, it was in Cordoba, Argentina. I think that they were reprimanded from the pulpit at the end of 1981 and at the beginning of 1982, one person at the time. I left on mid 1982. I have no included people who were reprimanded after I left Maranatha in my previous post.

matt_hatter,

Click on history in this notice board and then Click on The History of Maranatha In Argentina and you will be able to see James and Jamie Thomas in action!!

James and Jaimie Thomas were the main elders in Argentina in 1979. They used to travel a lot and were also involved in Maranatha in Venezuela with Alex and his wife.

I met Alex and his wife for the first time in Argetina in 1979.

Alex also started Maranatha in Belgrano, Capital Federal,Buenos Aires, Argentina. I visited this branch in Buenos Aires a few times in the beginning of 1986. It was a new branch at the time. Alex was also trying to sell the house in Cordoba, Argentina.

[matt_hatter]

Pilgrim, thank you for the reminder of the location of your story. I would encourage all who have not read Pilgrim's account to follow the instructions above and read. Very sobering thoughts from a pure heart.

Pilgrim, I remember all the jive talk about James learning "Instant Spanish", it was presented at an MLTS and we all oohhh'd and ahhhh'd. It is something that gullible American Christians are so guilty of, we think because it happened "overseas" that these things actually happened. TL Osborne, I think, used to tell stories about amputated arms being restored to a perfect limb. We swallow-followed without question.

God can do anything He wants, don't get me wrong, but I suspect these stories were the lies of men, to boost their own egos and take big offerings.

[ginger1]

I am trying to recall any "miraculous" story in EN, I know there is none. The only thing I heard from them is that they "are getting thousands or hundreds of people saved". And they are "getting financially blessed"
Which is also a lie by Phil Bonasso and Rice Brookes.

Even In VCF, some of the top Senior Pastor are claiming that "they are getting financially blessed". The most recent news I got was that a lot of them are moving out of their homes because they cannot afford the rent. And Business has been bad for 2 - 3 years now.
Some are even cheating in their business. Some refused to pay their debt, some of the VCF pastor are trying to put their relatives in the VCF payroll by making them VCF pastors, so at least they have income coming in.
Its all about money , NOT about calling or being commissioned by God any longer in VCF. Its MONEY.

(Message edited by ginger1 on November 28, 2006)

[osakadan]

I've just been working my way thru the Argentina and a few older threads - truly disturbing.

It is hard to believe (but I do) that someone would fabricate such a lie as "instant Spanish".

Off topic but what the hell - Was on set-up crew and the worship leader, Jim (married to Denise) who came with the team to Sydney, told us a funny little story.

3 or 4 of us were out the back, and Jim came back laughing about the song "God had just given him" on stage. He led the congregation to believe he had just received a song from the spirit but instead he showed us the chords and lyrics pasted to his guitar.

I remember being shocked. My self and the other brothers were all new to the church. Hard to believe now but we never discussed it amongst ourselves.

I should have ran that day.

[ulyankee]

osakadan, that is a sobering story in and of itself... to not only admit to it but be PROUD of the fact that he just manipulated and deceived the congregation. Like it's something to emulate.

One wonders if this type of behavior and attitude is the exception or the rule in today's EN. I choose to believe that *most* people, including *most* local pastors, are sincere, even if and when they may be sincerely deceived. However, I have seen enough evidence and heard enough credible stories to believe that this may not be the case among those in the inner circle who are truly in charge of the direction of the movement.

[matt_hatter]

Just a personal story, there very were few men that I was associated who had Machiavelian minds when I was in Auburn. (Nasso comes to mind as the main culprit). I was on that lower echelon level of leadership, and always had an over active conscience that struggled with manipulating people. It brought about my downfall; the inner conflict regarding what HQ wanted us to do as pastors and what I could bring myself to do were two different things. This attitude existed all through the ministry, I know of instances now that people in the inner sanctum stood up to Weiner.

Mike and Missy are another good example of folks who finally called BS on the whole thing and blew it wide open. I didn't have it in my character to do that at that time and am always grateful that they did.

There were good, God fearing souls from those days, despite the slashing wounds, still love the Lord (or are trying to sort it out) with a sincere heart. The renewal of those friendships, both known and unknown, has meant the world to me.

[osakadan]

I basically believe that most pastors and lower level staff are sincere. They may well tread over people and cause hurt but it is coming from a sincere belief they are doing the correct thing.

Being head of a team's worship group, I guess it might have just gone to the guy's head. But in MCM at least, that arrogance was endemic at higher levels. I am wondering what he had seen. Otherwise why was he so sure we wouldn't talk about it? It must have been the culture of the inner circle.

[matt_hatter]

I can obviously confirm stories like yours, and it was an attitude that permeated the ministry at the lowest level. We had a certain single brother 'prophet' (tikie knows) who would have been comfortable walking to his classes in a white robe carrying a stone tablet.

I was fortunate to have been in a place where the leaders just didn't act this way, but when a "traveling big wig" came through and started ordering my wife around to iron his shirts, etc, I got a new perspective of these snakes.

I didn't have the belly for it.

[jesusisawesome]

Hi Pilgrim, thanks for sharing the links, I just finished reviewing both of them. The Argentina history was totally new for me. I was heavy-hearted as I read through it. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif

Your story is very sobering, and heart renching. When you consider the abundance here in the U.S., it highlights just how abominable the depth of the abuse was that happened as "missionaries" were sent out to other countries, such as Argentina. Leaders raised in an overfed, fat, lazy, and self-indulgent culture taking from and abusing those that have less (sorry my co-American friends, no offense meant to you).

I am reminded of a posting by Ulyankee where a leader had bragged about EN's leadership being willing to face the gates of hell for the sake of the ministry (something along that line). That statement is as ludicrous as it would be for a sumo wrestler to claim that he has a lifestyle of fasting.

I have read and posted on the "Did you know about or have abusive interrogations thread" before, and it was a refresher to read through it again. For some reason, I didn't connect "Pilgrim" with "Argentina". The word Pilgrim connects in my mind with Thanksgiving and the U.S., so my apologies to you for not making that connection.

The good thing about all of this, God cannot be mocked. He is longsuffering, kind, and patient, but there comes a day of reckoning. Hopefully, through the joined prayers of many over the years, the axe will be taken directly to the root in the near future, and many delivered and spared from ensnarement.

[jesusisawesome]

Pilgrim it is stories like yours that make me at times really embarrassed to be an American. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

Other events make me thankful, but knowing stuff like this makes me sad.

[banshee]

jesusisawesome: EN's leadership being willing to face the gates of hell for the sake of the ministry

Considering the stories of guys lying about song selections, the money that was embezzled, the various stories of abusing members, maybe there was a LOT of truth in that statement ;)

[jesusisawesome]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[jesusisawesome]

The humor of your comments struck me, but as I think about it, it's a very sobering thought Banshee. I guess only God knows each individual's heart . . . but I wouldn't wish the actual facing the gates of hell on judgment day on any of these people.

[pilgrim]

matt_hatter,

Thanks again for your post.
You wrote, I remember all the jive talk about James learning "Instant Spanish", it was presented at an MLTS and we all oohhh'd and ahhhh'd. It is something that gullible American Christians are so guilty of, we think because it happened "overseas" that these things actually happened.

You are one of the witnesses of the lie about James Thomas instantaneous spanish and I am one of the witnesses that James Thomas did not learn spanish that quickly!

To everyone,

I wonder, how many people in this board had heard the lie of James Thomas instantaneous spanish?

Where and how was this lie taught?

I also wonder why did he lie like this and how could such a lie being taught without the feeling of guilt and why no other missionary who went to Argentina came forward to say that it was simply no true?

[pilgrim]

jesusisawesome,

You wrote, "For some reason, I didn't connect "Pilgrim" with "Argentina". The word Pilgrim connects in my mind with Thanksgiving and the U.S., so my apologies to you for not making that connection."

I called myself Pilgrim for the following reasons, and for these reasons I also addressed one of my posts to other pilgrims on a journey.

Philippians 3:20

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 11:13-16 (You can also read the whole chapter)

13. All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.

14. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own.

15. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return.

16. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Blessings

From a pilgrim

[flo1151]

Pilgrim

I believe that the instantaneous learning of spanish came from Bob W. True James did learn spanish quickly but probably because he was a very intelligent young man. When I say smart I mean very smart. It probably started out with a quickly learned spanish and then rose to the spanish miracle. By then it was probably too late for James to take it back.

To give a little history of James, I first met him when he was about 14. He had maybe the world's worst father. A horrible person. I taught him how to drive a car in that his father basically disowned him for joining Maranatha. Hope things have been patched up since, doubtful if you know James' father. He I'm sure was looking for a father figure in Bob and Bob was eager to oblige. Pilgrim, I am sorry for your bad experience in Argentina. Sounds like you got out quickly which was good. I actually went down there after James and Jamie had left with Robert Hucklebridge. The leadership there was to say the least insufficient. I am sorry for yours and others pain and pray for your healing and recovery.

Alan Tomlin

[jesusisawesome]

Pilgrim I love the promise and hope of those scriptures. The thought of meeting Jesus face to face. No longer seeing in a mirror dimly and experiencing the fullness of God's presence.

I did made that connection also, but my mind still thinks of the first pilgrims to this country and Thanksgiving . . . and food . . . a hot juicy dripping turkey, steaming mashed potatoes and gravy . . . mmmmmmm! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

No more leftovers to indulge in, so now I can only fantasize, sigh . . .

[matt_hatter]

JIA, stop it you are causing me to stumble. We will stand you up before the Bunny Trail Sanhedrian. Mainly to serve more turkey and dressing. We are a forgiving bunch.

[mdillon]

I remember James' testimony as well and flo is correct. This was standard MO with Bob, taking something ordinary and making a miracle out of it for what reason one can only assume, little man's disease I guess. I cannot speak to what James was overseas, but he was always kind and encouraging to me.

pilgrim I don't necessarily agree with your eschatology but I have so appreciated your posts here and can see the Light that shines through you.though I had no involvement in any MCM missionary endeavors, I too apologize as a former pastor for your pain. God help us all.

dilly

[lablady2]

"This was standard MO with Bob, taking something ordinary and making a miracle out of it for what reason one can only assume, little man's disease"

Now, mr. d, as someone who is married to a height-challenged man, I have to take issue with your post. Bob didn't suffer from little man disease (I have a cure for that by the way...hehe), he suffered from "little heart disease."

Pilgrim, I'm sorry for what you experienced. Words fail me.

[jesusisawesome]

I will willingly stand up before the Bunny Trail Sanhedrian for one more heaping plate of turkey &amp; mashed potatoes! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[osakadan]

LL2, maybe dilly is referring to the OTHER little man's syndrome.

[lablady2]

Ohhhhhhhhhh, thanks for an image I'll live with forever, Dan-O.

[osakadan]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[pilgrim]

Flo1151,

You wrote,"True James did learn spanish quickly but probably because he was a very intelligent young man. "

I have seen other people learning English in the same amount of time that it took James Thomas to learn spanish and some with even less help. However I have also seen people that are never able to learn another language.

So James did well in his learning of spanish but it was not instantaneous at all!!

[pilgrim]

Flo1151,

You also said,"I actually went down there after James and Jamie had left with Robert Hucklebridge."

In which year did you travel to Argentina?

[flo1151]

pilgrim,

It probably would have been about 1985. Within2-3 years as you get older you forget dates. Bill Strange was there and Pam (somebody) had left the place was in a shambles. Anne Lorenz may have still been there.

flo

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All
Catching up ,I was at a meeting with James and Jamie, when the story about learning instantaneous was covered in great detail. Then the play was made to get more to go overseas. Bob was not there, and we were all lead to believe this was true. It happened more than once. What happened to Al and Sandy in Venezuela? Does any one know.

To pilgrim- I have heard from more than one person that I knew and trusted of harsh treatment by them ( James and Jamie) to others in their group.}

[flo1151]

the last I heard of Al and Sandy they were in Cadiz Ky. Al was doing some kind of work like me and dilly.

[mdillon]

Al came through C-town several years back to help a friend of his work on his house and I got to visit briefly with him. I believe he was in some sort of remodeling biz. Good brother, good friend.

dilly

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All
Sorry but C-town? Was this out west?}

[mdillon]

i'm sorry coppertree, its Columbia, TN. where I now reside. where I was born. also Mule Capital of the World. no surprise there now, huh?

dilly

[pilgrim]

flo1151,

You wrote,"It probably would have been about 1985. Within2-3 years as you get older you forget dates. Bill Strange was there and Pam (somebody) had left the place was in a shambles. Anne Lorenz may have still been there."

If Bill Strange was there and Pam was still there you probably went to Argentina after I left Maranatha in 1982 or in 1983. Probably if I write an email to Jorge and Pan Rodriguez they may still remember you!

I heard that in 1985 the house in Corboba, Argentina became empty as they closed Maranatha and that Gustavo and Mirta Giraldo were left to look after the house. The person who told me this did not remember all the details very well. Maybe if you try to connect your trip to Argentina with other things that happened in your life in that year you will be able to remember the year that you went to Argentina.

I normally remember particularly well the things that shocked me the most in my life and that is one of the reasons why I remember so much about Maranatha.

[flo1151]

Pilgrim

I don't think Pam and jorge Rodriquez were there.. I believe they would remember me. I think our recommendation coming back to the states were to close the ministry. Bill Strange was the only person for sure that I remember from the states that was there at that time.

flo

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi All,
As I am thinking about thoughts here and conciseness and logic about who is "a good brother" and whom is not. Perhaps , it is situational was we begin to see actually.Al sees James and Jamie differently then as I and others see and have experienced them. It depends when last they were seem. It can without an open eye, look like when we were there. The memory of eye can be clouded,unless you were the victim, then it is clear, so to speak. It is a gift of history to see the fact of the matter. Those whom we love have bludgeon others. They looked good in staff meeting, but sins were hidden , and hide still,now. In our history, as we rewrite it commonly.

Some may see as Al and I do differentaly depending on time when we last saw actions. This is what I was feeling.........a little while ago. As in the book, "The Shape of Time',about who we are now, and how others see us then...We all seem to be a Yates boat at times. Or the little I bit now about Rugmuffin's gospel, sides of the same coin....not enough all seeking the same.............GRACE}

[pilgrim]

flo1151,

Pam and Jorge told me that they think that they left to Guatemala in March 1983.

Was Jose Miguel and Adriana still there during your visit?
You would have remembered them because they were elders like Bill and Susana Strange.

Jose Miguel and Adriana left Maranatha... Adriana thinks that it was in 1984 to join another church.

I met Bill and Susana Strange twice after they left Maranatha. I am sure that they did tell me when they left but now I forgot the details.


Talking about something else, I heard about a lot a dating revelations nightmares that happened or came to a head right after I left from some of the people involved during short visits to Argentina. Most of these nightmares would have been avoided if the leaders did not play God in others peoples revelations or relationships. A Christian brother should had been allowed to take a sister in Christ for a wife without the leaders interventions.

Flo, I am just curious, why was your recommendation to close Maranatha in Argentina?

[flo1151]

pilgrim,

I do not remember the individuals that were there in Argentina. I believe the reason we recommended closing the ministry was because of a lack of leadership there in the church and we thought that there was a pretty good church in the town(maybe a ywam church) to take in the few folks left.

[pilgrim]

flo1151,

The nearest YWAM base was in Buenos Aires that is over 800km away.

You wrote,"I believe the reason we recommended closing the ministry was because of a lack of leadership there in the church "

I think that you were right there. Primitivo Plaza who was a good, wise and kind leader was already shunned by the system. He was the only elder who was unsupported financially and had to work to feed the family before he was shunned.

The system was so ungodly that the best thing that could be done to stop the abuse was to close down.

[pilgrim]

flow1151,

Do you know what did the leaders at the top of the pyramid of Maranatha do with the proceeds from the sale of the house in Cordoba, Argentina.

(Message edited by pilgrim on November 30, 2006)

[flo1151]

pilgrim,

I have no recall of that. Probably used it for another ministry or if we couldn't get the money out of Argentina we gave it to another ministry. I do recall that the church in Cordoba was started because of people going to I believe the world cup or some other big event there. Also during the time of closing the church there was much discussion on our mission of reaching college students and we didn't think that Cordoba was a major college town. Pilgrim, I believe I would have been near the top of your so-called pyramid and I do not recall a large profit from the sale of the building. Cordoba was very depressed during this time and real estate I believe had taken a nosedive. It seems that we barely broke even in the sale of the building. I may be wrong but that was my memory of the building.

[pilgrim]

flo1151,

You said,"Also during the time of closing the church there was much discussion on our mission of reaching college students and we didn't think that Cordoba was a major college town."

flo1151, I think that you are mistaken with the above statement!!

Cordoba City was one of the best places in the country to study almost any university career that you wanted to pursue if after you finished the secondary school you were lucky enough to have normal parents who could provide you with room and board.

I tell you this because my mother was mentally ill so I was practically alone in the world although with God's help I finished the secondary school in 1980, ie.pre-university school, with the top marks.

In Cordoba they have the Ciudad Universitaria ( University City), I remember that I was often told that Corboba City and Buenos Aires had the best universities in the country, I heard this from Cordoba and Buenos Aires.

During part of my time in Maranatha I used to preach the gospel in the university city daily from 1979.

I remember that in 1981 the elders laid hands on me and another man called Carlos Segura and the elders of Maranatha chose us to be the official evangelists in Maranatha in a church meeting. They said a lot of NICE and KIND things to the church about us on that day.

I was often send to preach the gospel with Carlos Segura. (I remember that I always thought at that time, how nice it would be if I could go to preach the gospel with the man that I submitted to get married in 1980 INSTEAD of Carlos Segura!). I did NOT put the above information in the History of Marantha in Argentina. My worst problems and false accusations from Maranatha started at the end of 1981.

YOU CAN SEE THE SOME INFORMATION ABOUT THE UNIVERTIES IN CORDOBA IN THE FOLLOWING WEBSITES BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE IN PREACHING THE GOSPEL ONLY TO STUDENTS BECAUSE IT IS UNFAIR AND UNBIBLICAL.

It says in the second website that Cordoba was the latinoamerican city which had the greatest percentage on University Students in 2005, 12% of the population in Cordoba were university students.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba,_Argentina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba%2C_Argentina)

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba_(Argentina)

You also said,"we thought that there was a pretty good church in the town(maybe a ywam church) to take in the few folks left."

Corboba was not just a town. Cordoba is one of the largest cities in Argentina.

YWAM was in Buenos Aires in 1982, I did the DTS in YWAM Buenos Aires from september 1982 to March 1983.

I remember that Pamela and Jorge Rodriguez came to visit YWAM with thier first baby boy in the beginning of 1983.

After March 1983, I worked. in secular jobs in Buenos Aires to save enough money to work with YWAM in the USA.

I left Argentina to go to the USA for the first time at the beginning of July 1984.

YWAM moved from Buenos Aires to Palmira, Mendoza sometime after my DTS and they were in Palmira, Mendoza when I was in Argentina in the beginning of 1986.

In 1986 as far as I remember the argentinian currency was stronger against the dollar than in previous years. For this reason with God's help it was easier to save up money to live the country for the second time in 1986.

The house in Cordoba was sold after I left the country for the second time in July 1986.

[pilgrim]

flow1151,

I am posting the second link again I am sorry that it is in spanish.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba_%28Argentina%29

The fourth paragraphs said in spanish that 12% of the population in Cordoba were university students in 2005.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Catching up,

I am reading here the huge discrepencies of what commmittee and people like Flo were told, and the actual facts of reality of the real situation. One can see the skeleton of the backstory of who and what was really in charge of Maranatha. One got the information others wanted you to have, so you could be led into making a decision they wanted you to do. He whom controls the information, really rules and controls things and the way the group will move and how they will function.

This was done a lot in Maranatha , Msi and now En. I am so thankful for the net. We can begin to finally see the truth and not the party line.}

[matt_hatter]

Thirty years is a long time to try and remember events. I had forgotten most of what Tikie blogged about in those early years at Auburn. It only came back because of his incredible details. Lot of water under the bridge, eh Flo? Life goes on...

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Matt
The point that I was making is that :


I think that Flo remembered well. The salient point is that he was fed information that they wanted him to see. This information feeding is part of the control.}

[flo1151]

copper and pilgrim,

The truth that there is a lot of water under the bridge as far as remembering certain facts. The thought that I was in someway fed some misinformation as to be manipulated could be true. This is politics as usual. However I did go to the church around 1985 and saw the remainder of what was a church. It was not a pretty sight and it was not fair to continue the church with the present leadership. I do not think things in this event were misconstrued. Cordoba was not in our thinking a major college town. Just like Memphis Tennessee was not a major college town or Atlanta Georgia. They are fine cities but the town does not revolve around the campus. It seemed at the time we were having most of our sucessess in small towns with large campuses.

Pilgrim,
We need to try and wrap this conversation up as quickly as possible. I am not here to debate at what a great city Cordoba Argentina is. I am talking about the church that we had there. That is my only reference to the place. I may have been wrong about the ywam(I said maybe a ywam church)so don't go off on some tangent about who is right and who is wrong. I do not care.

copper,

I am sure that everyone on the executive board was not told everything about a certain church. Bob W. always wanted to spin a positive light on everything. For instance Robert Hucklebridge and my trip to South America consisted of first going to Venezuela and seeing a small but basically happy group of people in Caracas led by Al and Sandy Dodd who were sleeping on a cot on the floor. We were able to come back raise funds and by them a bed and to raise some more monthly support.
Then we went to Brazil were Bert and Karen Turner along with Doug and Miriam Pacheco were leading a rather successful ministry in Rio. We accessed there needs and reported back.
When we got to Cordoba there was a handful of people with a building they couldn't afford and no leadership to bring any change. We recommended the ministry closing its doors. There was another church there in town (I do not know which one) but the people were encouraged by the acting leadership to go there. This is really all I know and I have no interest in trying to remember something that was so long ago. I hope this helps. If not I doubt if I can comment further

flo

[annelewis]

Pilgrim, the term "college town" in American English means more than a town or city with colleges in it. In a college town, the economic, social and civic life is driven by the university. If the town is also a regional or national center of art, goverment, industry or commerce then it is not a "college town".

I went to school in Washington DC a city that is home to many internationally respected universities. But in no way is it considered a "college town". Cordoba sounds as if might be too big and cosmopolitan to be a college town.

[maranatha1984]

Pilgrim: wonder, how many people in this board had heard the lie of James Thomas instantaneous spanish?


Tikie_ James and Jamie were semi permanent plants at the Auburn Start up and I very much admired them. They went from Auburn for training thence to Argentina. It was at the first MLTS after Argentina had been planted where Bob stood up and proclaimed the instananeous learning of Spanish by James. I was so gullible- or at least wanted so badly to believe in these "miracles" that I swallowed this. IT does not surprise me in the least that it was NOT True.Of course it would NOT be true!

[pilgrim]

flo1151,

You said, "When we got to Cordoba there was a handful of people with a building they couldn't afford and no leadership to bring any change. We recommended the ministry closing its doors.
"

Click on History and read The history of Maranatha in in Argentina and you will see some of the reasons for the self-destruction of Maranatha.

I copied from part The History of Maranatha in Argentina what I had written below.



Membership “For University Students Only”

In 1982 something else happened. By then the church had a mixture of families, students and young people. Then two men came from the United States with a message that they said was from God. They said that the reason for opening Maranatha was to preach to university students and that it should have been for them only and that a mistake had been made in having families and non-students. They said that all the families and older people would have to leave; only the students and young people with a vision to preach only to students could stay. I think that it was at this time that Primitivo called one of these two men and said that he had a word of knowledge for him. I believed this was a prophetic word of the Lord from Primitivo. Later when I visited Primitivo in 1993. Primitivo said He told the 2 Maranatha leaders thay they travelled around the world saying many words and that those words were nice words and everybody listened but that those words were not from God. Primitivo also told me that he did not want to say these two prophesies. It was very painful for him to do so. But he felt that the Holy Spirit convinced him that was very important to do this. These prophecies became reality as eventually Maranatha ceased to exist and the building was sold to Christ for the Nations.

[pilgrim]

In 1979, Maranatha bought a house in Avenida Colón, which is now a Christ For The Nations (CFTN) facility. In early 1979 some missionaries from YWAM like Jorge Rodrigues and Pamela Barnett joined Maranatha and were married. He was from Colombia, and she was from the USA. They became the main Maranatha elders in 1980.(I forgot to say before that Jorge and Pam Rodriguez got most of their financial support from her parents) There were other elders like William Strange, Jose Miguel Aguero and Primitivo Plaza. Primitivo unlike the other elders, was older, was living in a shanty town and was the poorest of them all. And as far as I know he was the only one who did not get any financial support from Maranatha. But he used to invite different young people to his house and his wife used to feed us very well and was very loving. On one occasion Primitivo told me that he worked 14 hours a day to support his family. And he did a lot of repairs at Maranatha during some weekends - he was a builder, decorator and trained the Sunday school teachers. As far as I know he did not get any financial support. I heard many times about the other 3 elders being supported but not him so I'm almost certain he didn't. The other 3 elders did not work in a secular job but Primitivo Plaza did. Primitivo was from Bolivia.

Primitivo was the elder who said two prophesies that did come to pass which resulted in him being excommunicated from Maranatha. He was also accused of causing trouble in a previous church. We were told that “he was in rebellion now,” and that we were not allowed to see him anymore. I have not seen any evidence of Primitivo's wrong doings apart from the two prophesies which I believe in my heart that these prophesies were from God.

First prophesy

One of the prophesies was rather long. I believe the date the prophesy was given was in 1982. I do not remember all the words but I do remember the meaning. He said that Maranatha in Argentina was not walking well with God, and as a result it would cease to exist and the sheep would be scattered in many churches, many places and that the building would be spared to be used to preach God's words by another organization.


In mid 1979 when all the missionaries came from North America, there were at least 30 missionaries I think. Primitivo invited them to his poor house. His house however was better than my room. But it was a shanty town house. And his wife cooked some delicious empanadas for all the missionaries. I am sure that some people in the US must still remember him. The food he gave us was big chicken Bolivian empanadas. Everybody said he was so loving at the time.

[pilgrim]

Tikie,

You said, "I was so gullible- or at least wanted so badly to believe in these "miracles" that I swallowed this. IT does not surprise me in the least that it was NOT True.Of course it would NOT be true!"

I was gullible too. I did not want to believe that these leaders were such liars.

The people who told me about this for the first time in Los Angeles CA in 1984 were extremely excited about it and didn't seem prepare to believe anything else. I did not believe that they would believe me in 1984 if I told them the truth. I was afraid to accuse "an elder i.e. James Thomas" without another 2 or 3 witnesses at the time. My english was also very poor at the time.
Now I feel ashamed of myself because I did not have the strength to expose James Thomas back in 1984.

I am sorry.

(Message edited by pilgrim on December 01, 2006)

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi
My point would be that the building's sale was well in the works as being sold before a fact finding trip. Other things happened like this ; it is but one example of what really was going on. There was real power and an illusion of power.

I am just saying we were all part of this disgrace that turned many from His grace. Granted some of us were on different sides of the table, ( dining and serving) so to speak. But we went along, not unlike Germany with their king, in the last century. This was pointed out to me by some knowing, and astute former members.}

Flo-Think 1985, and the things there started then..the picture will come clearer,

[flo1151]

I am through thinking

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi Flo
If you are thru , finished thinking, this is how we got here. We thought that things had changed. According to many in 1981, 1983-84, 1985; a new day was coming. .Many are watching, the inner story still goes on, Larry Tomazak, joined En, it was reported today. NOW is not the time to stop.}

[pilgrim]

copertree,

Many times I have wondered if the reason the two Leaders, who came from the USA to Argentina to ask all the families and older people to live in 1982, ie that was the majority of the members of Maranatha and they all had to live the building, was to start vacating the house for a possible sale in the future.

Please note that they could have easily allowed the older people to use the building at a separate time than the students. But instead they did not want the older people to come to the building anymore.

I wonder if anything happened in America in 1982 to confirm some of my thoughts. I am thinking of things like the following events.

February, 1982—Kansas deprogramming bill passed by state House, as a result of Dee Dee Tillman’s involvement with and deprogramming from Maranatha. (The bill was ultimately defeated, however.)


1982-1984—Ad-hoc Christian committee investigation of “Maranatha Campus Ministries;” Maranatha invited the investigation. Note that this was not yet the legal or even legally assumed name of this organization.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>hi Pilgrim,
As far as I have seen, and know from myself and others, the control of assets began at this time. Churches became incorporated on their own, Ann Arbor had left, losing monies to Gainesville and leaving a debt. This debt was shouldered by others in their region. In Gainesville with the things that they yet controlled were sold, or readied for sale. The wagons were circled so to speak. True colors were seen in people, for what they were after. Lawsuits were being won in the millions in Ca. It was a business, and those involved are not talking. So history , and inside reports are what is left. As they say follow the money.}

[pilgrim]

Annelewis,

Thank you for your definition of college town.

flow1151,

If we use Annelewis definition of a major college town, I can see that under that definition Buenos Aires is less of a college town than Cordoba. Although Buenos Aires has good universities as far as I know unlike Cordoba it does not have an University City with all the main university buildings next to each other.

So my question is why did they open Maranatha in Belgrano a wealthy area of Buenos Aires?

I believe that the house in Cordoba was already empty when they opened Maranatha in Buenos Aires.

Alex the main elder in Maranatha Buenos Aires was trying to sell the house in Cordoba in 1986.

Why did Maranatha in Buenos Aires close down so soon after the sale of the house in Cordoba?

[flo1151]

I do not remember a Maranatha in Buenos Aires

[pilgrim]

To everyone,

Has anyone in the USA heard of Maranatha in Buenos Aires, Argentina in 1986?

If not, I would wonder why this branch was not as well known in the USA and promoted as Maranatha in Cordoba, Argentina?

You can also go to Teachings/Bible/Practices in this board click on Dominion Mandate Question and you will be able to see some information about Maranatha in Buenos Aires in my posts number 227,228 and 229.

[wwjdwwjd]

Weiner and Benny Hinn, Jim Jones, David Koresh are in the same category. Liars. Anything for stats. The SAVE-O-MATIC MINISTRY, GOD'S GREEN BERETS. Foolishness, witchcraft. I worked with the Gainesville crowd.

I have seen more honest people in the world than in Maranatha. 4 years of my life wasted. I still live in the fear that Weiner and his followers taught.

Hitler and the Mafia MO is fear. Just like Maranatha.

[lc_20]

wwdjwwjd,
I have been reading a book - The Nazi Officer's Wife - about a woman who survived the holocaust. I spent almost a decade in msi/en. But, thankfully, I will most likely never know the fear that this woman knew. My escape from msi/en was tough emotionally and spiritually. I regret the loss of the money they manipulated out of me and I struggled with my identity as I left. But, my escape was no where near as difficult as the escape described in this book. The mafia example though... yes I agree. I believe EN is a form of organized crime held together by obligation or "family".