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xman3

12-10-2006, 03:34 PM

Greetings folks,

I want to thank you all at this site for providing such up to date info regarding EN,MorningStar, and Maranatha. The time line is awesome and a great source of info on things that interest me, albeit for far different reasons than most here. After spending hours perusing the site, I find myself quite intrigued by the topics of discussion regarding not only these ministries, but so many others. I'd love to comment on so much of what I've read, but I just don't have enough time to deal with all of the misinformation and misinterpreted scripture, so I'll start in here where I am somewhat familiar. I was in Maranatha for 7 years, and later, through almost a chance occurance in MorningStar for approximately 4 more years, though I am not currently in Every Nation as there is no church in my area, though I might or might not attend there if there were a church here. Although I attended one of the most tightly controlled Maranatha churches, I seem to have a far different view than most of the posters here. I am acquainted with many of the men involved in all of these ministries and consider most of them to be true Christians. I lived through the dissolution of Maranatha without incident and am quite secure in my theology and relationship with God which clearly does not mirror the beliefs of the most diehard posters. Leo Lawson was my pastor and father in the Lord, so to speak, and I thank God for him and his ministry, "bad doctrine" and all. I normaly don't post on multiple religious oriented forums, but there just doesn't seem to be enough posters with a view differing from what I see here. A lot of what is posted here is, however quite enlightening and well documented so I swallow the bad with the good. I think it is a noble intention to expose cultish behavior, though I percieve much of the enthusiasm as misguided. Fortunately, you will have an eternity to deal with me and so many of these men and ministries when we all meet in Heaven and find out just how far off we all might be in our beliefs, so I shall endeavor to share some of my views as topics warrant in the here and now. It seems that too many here neglect to consider the fact that many of the people being lambasted here are just God loving and fearing men and women like the rest of us with real lives and real families and real humanity. Mistakes were and are made and sin was and is committed, but if I could only be a fly on the wall in your lives I think we all know the reality is that it works both ways.

I must attempt to split my message now due to size limitations. Future posts will be smaller. Part 2 coming.

xman3

12-10-2006, 03:35 PM

. Since I don't know exactly where to begin, I thought I'd just introduce myself a bit, and partially enlighten you on a bit of my perspective and then take it from there. I am more than confident that Every Nation is not a cult and that things are far different than they were 25 years ago and that is from personal experience. Of course, there are some things that troubled me years ago, and some that still do today, but not to the extent of some of what I've read here. I read that the quality of a post will be determined by the response it generates, so I will not cut and paste any of the things I'd like to question, but just see what comes of this initial message and take it from there. Perhaps this is merely a short-lived diversion for me that will generate little interest and that is fine, but I've found that differing views passionately presented are what make these discussions productive and interesting. Since I am registered now, however, I will at least occasionally comment on various postings of interest regardless of any response here because the zeal and sincerity of many of the regular posters here has piqued my interest. Who knows- perhaps someone may just enlighten me to the truth and value of what is being presented and I'll be a better man for it in the long run. I must admit, that this does not really seem to be much of a discussion or debate regarding any of these matters, but more like a web forum where those with a one-sided view and presentation take opportunity to vent and discuss their bad opinions and experiences, so it may be that it is totally inappropriate to even begin to present another view on any topic. It is a cult-watching group after all sanctioned by the rules of the website, so that aspect is unclear to me. It could be, though, that those who view things differently just don't want to spend the time and effort in this particular group for personal reasons. I'll soon find out I suppose.

lablady2

12-10-2006, 03:40 PM

"I'd love to comment on so much of what I've read, but I just don't have enough time to deal with all of the misinformation and misinterpreted scripture"

I'm so relieved to know that someone with all the correct information and the correct interpretation of scripture has finally arrived.

Welcome to the board!

lc_20

12-10-2006, 03:49 PM

xman3, You have my attention. Pick a topic for discussion. Toss out one of the items of perceived misinfomation for discussion.

matt_hatter

12-10-2006, 03:55 PM

I have been waiting for someone to logically and intelligently present EN's case. I think you just might be him. I am not being sarcastic, your posts were thoughtful and I am looking forward to your comments. Welcome!

I am probably here for my own selfish reasons to renew friendships, etc. But--- There were some despicable characters in my past, and some wonderful ones too, as there are probably those types today.

I have a real issue with very wealthy preachers, ones who have manipulated others to get that way, wherever they are. The trinket church is what makes me sick. MCM had fewer of these than EN does now, but the whole prosperity bunch is so far from Jesus' ministry that I ache at what has happened in America in this particular area.

My pastor holds a Doctorate in one of the most successful Southern Baptist Churches in the south, and you would never know it by what he drives, where he lives, etc. These people with 200/congregation do not warrant the salaries they are raking in.

Again, welcome, and I would encourage you to state some specific points of contention so others can respond. You have heard mine, and I think it is well documented with the leadership of EN. And no, I am not envious, my wife and I are doing fine and live a wonderful life.

Looking forward to yur posts,
Matt

(Message edited by matt_hatter on December 10, 2006)

flo1151

12-10-2006, 04:02 PM

xman,

Hope you are right. Welcome aboard.

flo

coppertree

12-10-2006, 04:16 PM

Hi and Welcome Xman3,
Can I ask if you were in leadership in your Maranatha group, or Msi. I ask because that is were the inter dealings of the group become known then. A cell group leader would not be aware of these things. I found that as one moves up into eldership etc., the choice comes to violate's one conscience in regard to the Word. Thank you for your post.}}

xman3

12-10-2006, 04:40 PM

Thanks (I think) for the welcome. I admit I worded my post in such a way to get a response because I really am quite interested in this stuff. I do not have "all the correct information" and never claimed to. I have some though, as experience is a good teacher. I lived it, like many others have, with a different perspective. I think a lot of the information gathered here is actually quite excellent, whether I like it or not. As for scripture interpretation, I am referring to many of the other topics regarding other ministries and minsters being discussed, and the Biblical basis for such. There is actually very little scripture involved with much of this discussion to quibble with because it seems a lot currently centers in on the financial situations that appear to be currently going on. I could go on and on about the doctrines of healing, tongues, faith, the cross, the tithe and many others that I believe are incorrectly represented here and in the course of time I may do so, but much of that doesn't really apply to this particular group's discussion at this time. Some does, however, and I shall carefully consider what direction I will pursue in presenting any position I hold and try to present some intelligent prespective rather than something that will be perceived as some sort of blind acceptance of all things EN. I realize that if I expect everyone to share my personal view of scripture in this discussion group I will be sorely dissappointed. I simply started in this topic because I know Every Nation is not a cult, and I have personal experience from within. There are quite a few ex-pastors and leaders who have posted and do post here, and they may see things differently and I respect their viewpoint and feel their pain in many areas. I've seen many lives affected by their experiences in these ministries, and although I personally do not think that anyone will get very far with God blaming their troubled lives and past on either perceived or actual abuses sustained during their time there, I know there were very real grievances and hurts resulting that can not be made light of. For me, the positives far outweigh(ed) the negatives and I believe that ultimately we are somewhat a product of our own choices concerning our faith and religious experience. Most knowledgeable (in experience) people will agree that the East Lansing church was one of the most controlled of all, yet I continue to thrive as a believer. I butted heads with Leo many, many times, yet I love him as a father and I know of his love for God and for people. I never did like some of the doctrine and some of the practices, but I harbor no ill-will whatsoever. God used those ministries in my life and I cherish my experiences both good and bad. Personally I am amazed that so many people haven't been able to move forward after almost 20 years and to me that is a sad indictment of their own relationship with God in addition to whatever indictments are made against these ministries. I shall consider my next post carefully and be more specific in choosing a topic for discussion.

lablady2

12-10-2006, 04:51 PM

"I do not have "all the correct information""

Well, that's just great. You come here and get my hopes up....

Truthfully, there was supposed to be a smiley face by that statement but my 'puter has been screwed up since I downloaded the newest version of Internet Explorer (thanks, speak!). Inserting an icon sometimes freezes up my machine.

So, X, please feel free to insert smiley face or preferred sarcastic icon in the following space: / /

And, about moving forward....I'm into the next century!

Welcome to the board. Mean it.

xman3

12-10-2006, 04:53 PM

Cross posting here I see. I was not a pastor and did not have intimate knowledge of the details of the executive board decisions. I was a cell group leader and had some unique experiences in training with some higher level ministers, but little authority. In MSI I was an administrator with little influence outside of my own churches dealings. Much of the details presented here are as clearly presented as I've ever heard them and quite enlightening as I've said. I must be circumspect in some of what I say here, but suffice it to say I have had some interesting experiences in regards to the operation of our Morningstar church. You might be surprised to realize how much each individual church was more a product of the pastor's views towards Morninstar and doctrine than the international ministry and its leadership. I was a mere child in the Maranatha days, and I'm not the same person I was. Perhaps time has softened my perspective a bit.

osakadan

12-10-2006, 04:53 PM

xman3, Do you consider MCM was a cult, or at least bordering on it?

xman3

12-10-2006, 05:06 PM

I think that MCM definitely had some tendancies towards cult-like behavior. These seemed to be in the realm of using pastoral authority to an excessive degree. The problems that most disturbed me revolved around family issues and career issues. Impressionable college students were not encouraged to seek counsel and wisdom from "unsaved" parents and often steered away from their influence. I also abhored the degree to which the marriage and dating "revelation" was taken. I do not believe it was a cult, but I do see that there was a lot of potential for people to fall victim to these things if they were young, zealous, uninformed (scripturally) believers. We all wanted to please God and sometimes pleasing MCM seemed the same thing. I guess I'm saying certain types of people were more succeptible to the flaws, and I understand the thinking in regards to MCM much more than MSI or En.

osakadan

12-10-2006, 05:14 PM

Thanks for the response. About the dating revelation, personally the no dating thing didn't bother me BUT do you think it is ok for an organization to have a blanket ban on dating?

xman3

12-10-2006, 05:22 PM

Matt_hatter

I'm a bit like you I suppose. Googling ex-maranatha friends always brought up this site and frankly the information here is more productive and accurate than I could get elsewhere. I have grown more and more disgusted with the financial state and teachings regarding prosperity of late. I see too many church members struggling to get by giving 10%+ to the church, believing for some sort of influx from God, while the only ones actually having their laps overflowing are the preachers. I wouldn't mind, since I see the scripture basis for some of it, if it were producing the same results for the givers, but I've yet to see it. That having been said- Every church I was involved with (and I was the administrator of the finances) the Pastor was the largest giver in %. Someone might say so what, they are really just giving to themselves anyway- and I say touche. Never-the-less, they were generous givers and diligent tithers and our church did give away a lot of money to other ministries and people outside of the MSI family of churches. I do find fault with 10 million dollar homes though, but not 600,000 ones. Just my opinion. I know Rice took no salary (or donated I suppose for tax purposes?) and he didn't need the money as his family is/was wealthy already. How long that went on, I don't know though. Of course, I never looked at his income tax statement either, so what do I know. I'll edit this by saying that that's what I was informed of. I see in some of these documents that he had a salary listed and I am not fully apprised as to the details as you would expect, and it was several years ago.

(Message edited by xman3 on December 10, 2006)

xman3

12-10-2006, 05:34 PM

I believe a church can ascribe to any rule they want to and we choose to accept it if we want to be a part. We should be free to leave when we must cross the line of our own faith and conscience though. When I was in MSI I was required to tithe as a part of being a "leader", and though I may or may not have agreed with their belief, I accepted it because I felt I was called to serve there. I am not as diligent to tithe right now, but I certainly see that tithing came before, during, and after the law and is not a legalistic issue. It is an issue of the heart. I want to tithe and give, but sometimes I still struggle financially.

xman3

12-10-2006, 05:44 PM

lablady2

I wish I had seen the smiley as it sounds much less sarcastic and welcoming. I highly recommend firefox. IE7 is an improvement, but just updating to it caused me a few minor glitches, and I never use IE unless I have to.

I will sign off for awhile and post later. This is turning out to be more enjoyable than I thought it might be. I think a lot of us have much common ground and history.

ginger1

12-10-2006, 05:48 PM

Xman3 welcome. I was also told that Rice did not received any salary from his church, BUT according to the EN 's communique, Rice Salary is overpaid by 30%. Meaning he is receiving salary from EN not from the church. Currently I was told that Rice do still received salary from EN. Though this one is not in the communique. And his salary is cut down so far down , my guess he is only receiving 20% from his original salary before.

According to Steve Murrell, EN revenue is now less than $1 million.

osakadan

12-10-2006, 05:49 PM

All that aside is it natural to dictate that people cannot date?

lablady2

12-10-2006, 05:53 PM

x-man: I apologize for a lame attempt at humor. Sarcasm doesn't play well with new posters on a message board,and I forgot that. Just FYI, my presence on the board is almost entirely for fun. The issues with MCM (I am a former member) and EN (no personal experience) have very little interest for me.

I will grow on you.

xman3

12-10-2006, 10:53 PM

I appreciate the sarcasm and humor. I heard what I anticipated rather than what was intended, though I must admit it made me laugh right away.

osakadan- I think it is ok to not allow dating in a church in theory. I must, once again, make a comparison to illustrate my point. I believe that God heals and that we can receive healing by faith and many other scriptural ways. Without elaborating on that lengthy topic, I will simply say that not all people (for whatever reason is irrelevant for my point) are able to receive healing. God has provided many other acceptable ways to be healed including doctors and medicine etc... If we were limited to simple faith healing or nothing, most people would get sick and/or die. I liken dating to that pattern. It may very well be that God's best way is to show us His choice for us and for us to receive that in some faith-filled mystical way, but left to that method only, very few people would ever get married. That method is a difficult road for a young new believer and produces much frustration and other problems. Dating, particularly multiple people does not set well with me as a Godly answer to this frustration, but if an individual has a sincere heart and desire to marry according to the will of God, it is a neccesarry(never could spell that word right) method to find out. Outside of marrying, I see no purpose in dating and consider it a great opportunity for compromise. Like so many things in the modern church, the theory is good, but it just doesn't work for the vast majority of the body of Christ, so we must accept other acceptable methods. I guess I'm simply saying its a good, Biblically based theory, but not practical or workable for most people, and that is not an attack on their faith or relationship with God. Personally, I bucked the trend and talked to my wife outside of the system and subsequently received the blessing from Leo and he married us. We did not date previous to my telling Leo, but we didn't submit it either. By that time, MCM was preparing to dissolve, and it soon became a non-issue. You want a bottom line though, so here it is. I don't think it is workable to ban dating completely, but it is an acceptable rule for me regarding church leaders. My observation was that more people left MCM over that issue than almost any other in our college environment. Its hard to keep people of that age apart in any setting and the system always "favored" those pursuing ministry and leadership.

coppertree

12-10-2006, 11:07 PM

Hi Xman3,
Thank you for your posts. Since you mention the dissolution in East Lansing, did you know why Leo left and went to Texas? What happened to his the church.
}

xman3

12-10-2006, 11:45 PM

The more I study these posts, the more I find myself in a dilemna. First off, the posters have had real experiences and received very real hurts which I don't want to belittle. To boil anything down to a simple get on with your life would cheapen their experience and perhaps be an arrogant response to very real situations that are ongoing in their lives and ministries. I believe there is an element of getting on with life and forgetting the past stuff, but that is no where near enough of a defense for any past or current practice. It is obvious that many of you here have concerns and such that are rooted in far more noble motivations than simply harboring past anger and bitterness. The second dilemna is that some are also from much "higher" levels of leadership than I was and have a perspective from the inside that I do not have. Honestly, I never did receive an adequate explanation for the dissolution of the ministry and my perspective and opinion may be vastly different than others. I was not privvy to the inner workings of the executive board and could not begin to accurately asess (gee they think I'm cursing so I'll misspell intentionally) some of the decisions made long ago. It appears that although I find general issues and statements that would label EN as a cult distasteful and wrong and ultimately sin, I certainly can not make that same statement in regards to the specifics of each posters experience. This will force me to give much thought to how I pursue my posting and I want to be careful to stay scriptural and compassionate. I'm going to give this stuff much thought before I jump into any more in-depth specifics, but I shall return. Perhaps I'm out of my league in this forum. I get more stirred up over much of what I've read about other ministries and men in regards to the posters' personal theology and its application in their statements, but here, I feel I must be very careful as there seems to be some very well informed people with seemingly good reasons for feeling as they do. I'm going to ponder whether to respond to current posts as a devil's advocate, or start a thread of my own and go that route. Im feeling inclined to begin with a new thread discussing my perspective of the general motivation of this discussion group and how it plays out in comparison to my undersatanding of scripture, but that would be woefully inadequate in addressing specifics being presented. My original intent is to defend MSI/EN from being labled a cult as it is not. Doing so in view of these experiences is no easy task and will require more time and diligence than I can muster up on a whim, so I will consider what I'm going to do very carefully before the Lord. God bless all.

xman3

12-10-2006, 11:57 PM

I do know why Leo left and I must admit not everything went smoothly during those tough times. The specifics are not important as it was not related to this discussion at that point. Over the course of time the church bought a building and after a couple of attempts to affilliate with other ministries or denominations it eventually settled in with a group out of England led by Bryne Jones. Once again, it split off after a time and is currently succesfully operating in East Lansing with a more community ordered approach rather than university. It has 200-300 members and is pretty succesful, but I left many years ago. Many of my friends still attend including some of the staff, but their vision and way of doing things just isn't for me, but I like the pastor and respect what they are doing. It's not all that bad a part of Leo's and MCM's legacy so to speak.

john_r_jones

12-11-2006, 12:05 AM

xman,
there is an assemblage of thoughtful folks here who aren't beligerent in general. (a few times we might push the envelope.) What I find in light of the past as well as the present is that this sort of dialog is healthy and it creates a place to grow personally which I certainly have. I sometimes felt like a mental or theological pygmy by comparison. Whether a ministry does or doesn't progress I find most often people do. What I find in your postings is someone whose in transition and becoming more aware. That awareness comes at a price though, we let go of some of our teddy bear notions of reality and life before we can grasp what it is we are to become. Hope that doesn't sound like gibberish.

Jonesee

coppertree

12-11-2006, 12:18 AM

Hi X man3#
You remind me of me, I would and did say things that you have said here. Have you gotten a chance to study us, then you wanted to post a new thread. You have done so already, so take it easy ,relax. You might learn when you see more, you don't have to be perfect, or even correct. You can join in, that's all. I knew Leo as Butch in Lexington, and wondered. Please keep posting.}

(Message edited by coppertree on December 10, 2006)

aferrill

12-11-2006, 12:30 AM

I used to think covenant churches were absolutely wonderful!!! I swore they were scripturally sound. It wasn't until I needed answers from the pastor and he avoided my answers for YEARS and I saw a pattern, that I started to wonder what was up. I never thought they were a cult either. As long as we don't confront, we're fine and they love us.

xman3

12-11-2006, 12:38 AM

jrj-

A little hard to understand, but not gibberish. I see that what you say is true and my initial impressions may not be totally accurate. I may push the envelope myself if I continue talking so I appreciate the leeway these discussions allow. There is a real mixed bag of opinions and experiences here all of which are interesting to me. Maybe I will just relax and join in and follow along for awhile while I ponder my defense of EN as a non-cult. It's not as though I'm going to add much earth shaking information to a discussion that has continued for years before I joined in, and will most likely comtinue long after.

priceless

12-11-2006, 12:41 AM

xman,

Well, at the risk of repelling individuals away from me, I have to wonder if Factnet isn't "the Cuckoo's Nest" and we are all patients!

I think the site does help one when they are at a certain point in their life. I'm not so sure it isn't time for me to close the book on this chapter in my life though.

Name it or coin it whatever you want to - but I think I am starting a new chapter.

Learn from the site while you are here. If you have areas that need to be healed be prepared for them to eventually erupt like a volcano - this site does that to one.

PS - Please pray for me - not feeling too well today - major stomach virus has attacked our area.

xman3

12-11-2006, 01:05 AM

Fortunately I need no healing in regards to my past experiences. I dealt with whatever I had to a long time ago, but I was just not all that affected. I believe that people who were prone to put too much of their faith in men and ministries had a much harder time when they failed, then those who put there faith in Jesus and His word. Sorry if that sounds critical, but that's how I see it. I've now been through 2 major church breakups and there just isn't much more that could phase me in regards to what goes on in a church. I've seen pastors divorce and good friends turn on me so I guess the Lord has blessed me with a strong faith and hope in regards to so many of these matters.

aferril-

I can only say that I often confronted and had a few 8 hour meetings with the staff over my disagreements with doctrine and practice and was never kicked out or ostrasized, and was always in leadership at some small level. The only thing that kept me out of ministry at that time was the demise of the international ministry. I still believe I'm called to some ministerial purpose perhaps, but I'm in a lot less of a hurry and quite content to see where God takes me. Starting afresh for the 3rd time takes some effort, but I will be able to serve people from a perspective that has been actually enhanced by these things rather than destroyed in whatever capacity I work within the church. I see how things could erupt around here though as there are certainly some strong opinions and viewpoints.

priceless

12-11-2006, 01:12 AM

Best wishes to you.

Unfortunately, I didn't even realize that I really had any unfinished business so I erupted. There are good people here, there are very hurt people here but I think for me it is time to move on.

I find that satan sometimes uses this board to confuse me. Sometimes God has used it to teach me. All in all though - I feel like I'm through with it.

God Bless,

wildwood_

12-11-2006, 01:16 AM

Welcome XMan3! (part 1 of 2)

And this will be the first of 2 posts...the second (because it's too long to fit) is a copy of my first post on the board (somewhere over on the Leader thread maybe you saw it already, there may be others who don't know how a "Wildwood" stumbled into such fine company here...LOL). There's a longer story as to why I saw the board at all & several days of prayer before I posted...I was not expecting to be welcomed...or to stay LOL I was wrong about the hearts here...(and I've found out some things, possibly a lot of things...sigh, I was clueless then and clueless now...clueless works for me BUT I'm not clueless about about JESUS LOL that I've been clear on by God's Grace & My Parents for Always...a few side trips...but I knew they were the wrong direction when I walked them).

I SAW Jesus Here...so I stayed http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif I came looking for a friend I've been praying for since 1975 and I Still Expect to see him...read the next post and you will see...and I found many, many more that are friends now too....

There was a song a long long time ago....Called Two Hands...With One Reach Out to Jesus...With the Other Bring a Friend and truly I believe and have continued to be believing for years...that we've all been bringing each other along to Jesus for a long long time.... It's not the path I expected; It doesn't look like what I thought the Lord's Face would "look" like when I was 18....hmmm, not all of course (hey public message board & that's the wonderful open thing about it and as it should be) but many Hearts you will find here...will be part of the "Body of Christ" the SAME JESUS, the SAME LOVE, the SAME JOYOUS WONDERMENT in the Astonishing Mercy, Grace & Love of the Lord God for His Children....that I remembered that my old friend spoke & sang of often. The Lord says "Seek and Ye Shall Find !"

God Bless You in your seeking.... and the folks here...they've let me keep seeking and hoping and praying and never ever criticized me one time--and I know they bear wounds from things I do not understand...yet, they Hug Me and Say Keep Hoping and Looking...and praying for my Friend...they want me to find him, too. So I DO. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

wildwood_

12-11-2006, 01:22 AM

Astonishing Our God is An Awesome God isn’t He?? !!!…. Here’s Part 2 of 2 (sorry to all who’ve read this before months ago…)
_______________________________________________
Hello. I stumbled across this thread searching for an old friend from college at the University of Kentucky in the mid to late 70’s. While I have never “met” Leo Lawson, I was there when “Maranatha” arrived on the UK campus. Also, at the time various “Latter Rain” type doctrines were being voiced by a variety of very young, very dynamic college students affiliated with a variety of church groups from Asbury Seminary (individuals not “school” theology), Covenant Community, Assembly of God, Maranatha, and remember Jed Smock??? The one “thing” all these “leaders” had in common was the concept of a unique Baptism of the Holy Spirit that would be manifest (usually) by the “gift” of a “prayer language” and of course the follow-up of “forgotten” sins that must be re-confessed, etc…

If you all will indulge me briefly, I’d like to tell you about the old friend I was looking for and how he came (as I understood it) to also be impacted by Leo.
My Brother in the Lord was one of, if not THE kindest, gentlest, most Spiritually & Scripturally grounded young Christian leaders on Campus. At one point, an impromptu weekly Bible Study/Prayer Group that he initiated with just a couple of friends, grew from 4 to about 50. There was no criteria for coming, no doctrine preached, just Christians representative of just about every “official” and “unofficial” campus ministry, coming together to simply pray and worship the Lord. Each individual securely grounded in their “Home” Church; typically the “Old Fashioned” kind with actual ADULTS as “Elders”, etc… To this day I’ve never experienced such an innocent and Holy time of worship. Alas, enter above mentioned groups who felt a need to begin to “instruct” the unenlightened and backward children who did not have a prayer language and suddenly our unity was gone and in its place a wide gulf of heavy doctrinal issues. Many of unenlightened, became “enlightened”, and left their respective securely grounded Churches to form or join what I would now term “Cult” Christian Groups (me too).

The Brother who’d started this impromptu gathering saw this happen and he tried to work with those who believed you could not pray without a “prayer language”. Scripturally, my Brother just did not see that as a grounded teaching. And he thought if the Lord had "Saved" you and "already added you to His Church" and you'd been immersed--that re-baptism wasn't scriptural either and he declined to participate in doing so on more than one occasion. But, more and more people kept getting “Baptized by the Holy Spirit” and receiving their language…people whose understanding of the Bible he respected and whose “walk with the Lord” was almost revered by other Christians (the key being…YOUNG oh, we were so foolishly young in our “wisdom”). Prior to this, above all else, this Brother’s belief of sharing Christ with another person…started with letting that person “see Jesus” in his life. And we did. I wish you all could have met this Brother in the Lord because the kindness in his heart still stands out in my mind after all these years. Now, that was before his understanding was enlightened by “Maranatha” and he started going by his middle name: Leo. Leo Lawson.

I cannot equate the Brother I knew with the leader you all have discussed… And I posted in this manner so that maybe you could catch a glimpse of the Man of God that I knew...that man's heart would be broken in pieces if he understood the depth of pain caused.

My heart still grieves for the innocence of faith lost back in 1976/78 by so many souls… My prayer is that someday Leo by the Grace of the Lord, can be seen by some of you as a wayward Brother and not as a “henchman”.

wildwood_

12-11-2006, 01:35 AM

I would like to add just a little tiny P.S. (ah...when I do get a chance to type on the board I tend to ramble)... I do not believe that there is ill will on this board towards any of those in leadership or even towards Butch... But there is a desire that new hearts not be wounded by the same heavy burdens that broke so many years ago....and standing in the light and being seen and speaking openly and lovingly and tenderly calling... does not have to be casting stones... It can be Jesus reaching out to Peter as Peter takes his eyes off Jesus and starts to sink because...Peter noticed that he was in fact walking on water.... Jesus is Lord, His Joy Our Hope...The Father's Love and Faithfulness Our Refuge...The Holy Spirit...OUR COMFORTER...Never Our Accuser...or a salesman... No one needs to be sold out for Jesus...that's silly... You sell out for things that can be "bought"; we cannot buy anything. Jesus "bought" US. We should say "Thank You" and then run around and tell everybody about the Free Stuff that God's Handing Out to His Kids...and yes I think it should be that simple (there are much wiser heads than me with all the details...MCM78, Tikie, Ginger, Hatter, JohnR, Copper, Ulyankee,Lablady, J2t, JIA, Flo, Dilly, SAMEO, Dovey, Dustie etc hey I cannot list everyone I'm not excluding anyone on purpose...BillM 40/40even). Joy...that's why the burdens aren't heavy...He's carrying them... Butch knew all these at 20...and I expect his heart still knows them at what 50ish...ouch...(I'm only 29...holding...).....

So, enjoy and buckle up though...it's kinda a bumpy ride on this message board at times....Nice Views though http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

xman3

12-12-2006, 04:13 PM

It's hard to ramble too much here because of the frustrating size limitations of a post. That was a good story and well presented. I was mildly surprised you were reffering to Leo, so to me you did a good job. It's been a long time since I heard him referred to as Butch, and it still strikes me as funny a little. I saw that Leo quite a bit. I was always amazed at the way he could sit down with someone and "preach" the gospel to them, taking them through the word, and challengs them in a fashion few others could. He was (and is I presume) always outstanding at reaching men in particular I thought. I am not sure how much you've spent time talking or seeing Leo over the years, and it's been a few years for me too, but how do you know his current take on varying beliefs concerning things like tongue in christianity? Since I do pray in tongues regularly, I never encountered any problem with him or anyone else concerning this except the opposite from other religious folks who don't believe in speaking in tongues who foolishly make dangerous accusations concerning this area. I don't think tongues are neccesary, but an added blessing to be sure that for me is essential. It may very well be an issue that keeps people from worshipping in the same church family as their home, but not as a church as a whole. I can't believe he would think a person is unsaved because they don't do so, but there is certainly a communion that exists when people share like beliefs even in these types of things that is unshared by those who believe otherwise. I do see that you are expressing the same view as me in the sense that these people so often crucified here are real people with real lives and families who I know love God and people. I have a lot to say here, and I will over time, but I have a busy life like so many and can only devote so much time on my many different endeavors at once. I am painstakingly reviewing so much info here so I can be well spoken as so many of you are, and address those things I am led to address. So much stuff, so little time.....

matt_hatter

12-12-2006, 04:32 PM

that these people so often crucified here are real people with real lives and families who I know love God and people.
Good Morning,
One thing that you may challenged on is blanket statements, just a warning!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

Please specifically tell me (1) who you are talking about (who has been crucified) and (2)how you know that they love God and people.

I can only go by what has been reported as factual regarding the finances/homes/ etc of some of the EN leaders.

Men living lavish lifestyles on the backs of college students and others does not add up to men who love people, rather they love the money that those people been rooked out of by guilt and false doctrine.

Thanks for your thoughts, and looking forward to your reply,
Matt

dust

12-12-2006, 05:42 PM

And, Matt, you have really simplified it. It's so much more that they love. They love POSITION, and KINGDOM of the WORLD. They love THEMSELF.

I like to repeat a story that happened to me that is true. Corporate prayer meeting. It was getting frustrating, the prayers getting less spirit led, very flesh led. Holy Spirit saying get up, get up, go pray for love. I asked for the mik. The pastor asked me, "what are you goiing to pray for?"

I said, Love (please note I was known in leadership and an intercessor with good repuation, so I wasn't wierd). He said, no you can't pray for love, you have to pray for the leaders.

I handed the mik back to him. He took it a walked away.

However, he did call me back a few minutes later, saying the Holy Spirit convicted him. I'll give him that, but I'm making the point that so much of the time it's LEADERS over LOVE. And just what does that lead up to.

More like the congregation getting crucified so that leadership can be glorified. But their glory will not last forever, for God's judgement will come and they will stand condemned for their heavy yoke.

matt_hatter

12-12-2006, 05:50 PM

They love POSITION, and KINGDOM of the WORLD. They love THEMSELF.

You are right, the love of money, lavish life, etc. is simply the fruit on the tree. The root lies in the above statement. It existed in my day, and sounds like the mantle was passed easily in EN. It was that lust for position and power over others that was the driving force in a number of my contemporaries. Very good point.

xman3

12-12-2006, 07:10 PM

Hello. Another post too long that I have to split. I will learn to be less wordy, I just know I will. Part 1 and 2 coming.

xman3

12-12-2006, 07:11 PM

That is fair enough. I'll retract my blanket statement and from now on I will only make a blanket statement in response to a blanket statement about EN. What's good for the goose must also be good for the gander. I know what I've read here as I've read many topics, and I know men have been referred to in a negative fashion, and I know this ministry is often blanketly referred to negatively despite the fact it is made up of a large variety of individuals, but I have no desire to compile a list of what is so obvious to me (crucified is probably way too strong and part of my overly flamboyant writing style which I will try and control). Perhaps not by you or even some of those who specifically respond to me, or by moderators. Since I don't want to do that, I will attempt to not do so. My opinion of men who love people include Rice, Leo, Phil, and most of the leaders of EN. That may not stack up in your eyes or others here, but it is my opinion. Facts and figures don't judge a heart as far as I'm concerned. They may expose problems and even sin, but that does not equate to not loving people. I humbly acknowledge that I can not see into the hearts of men as only the Spirit of God can, so in a sense I actually do not know. I myself find fault with the perceived insights into men's hearts I see, so I probably ought not do the same thing in a positive fashion. I will merely respectfully disagree with those who think EN leaders don't love people and move on. I feel if I dredge up a bunch of past posts I'd be wasting my time and not be doing what I'm here for, so I'll try and respond within specific posts and threads, rather than refer to general things I've read and unwittingly begin to attribute things said to individuals who never said them or don't represent this community. I apologize for the generality. To me, the evidence I've experienced in relating to different leaders speaks as loudly as the financial facts speak to you, yet both are merely the fruits we have chosen to base our judgment or discernment or whatever on. You've touched upon the difficulty I encounter here. The facts are what they are and they are often disturbing. I see that and acknowledge that. Some of the conclusions made based on these things are merely opinions and personal discernment, which to me hold no greater value than my own discernment and experience. I'm finding that it will be easier for me to respond to postings and threads outside of this one because the examples that I might want to discuss are to be found within them. I love the facts and I will learn from them and probably, as has been suggested, grow immensely in my insight about this ministry through them. Just in my short time here so far, I'm more open to trying to understand and appreciate why people here feel as they do. The facts and timeline are what really initially "inspired" me to register. I both appreciate and hate them at the same time, if you can understand that. This is after all, FACTNET, not opinionet. I will most likely always be frustrated by the reality that while the intent of this site seems to be to present facts which appear to support certain conclusions, I object to the conclusions despite the "facts".

xman3

12-12-2006, 07:12 PM

Perhaps this very frustration will be my undoing in regards to any support of this ministry I maintain, perhaps not. I'm not there yet though and I can at this point, only base what I think on what I am reading and how it is both presented and what it is used for. I don't deal as well with so called (by me) facts and figures and the conclusions reached through them as I do with things I perceive as the underlying reasons these conclusions are reached in examining these things. That is where I will find myself in, perhaps even opposition to what is being said. I will write some things as if they are generalities, but they will be based on the body of the thread I'm responding within and not simply individual remarks referring to just one posters statements. It's sort of like the old line that I've often heard, and disliked usually, that so and so said the right thing, but the error is in the spirit of how it was said. Just because the facts or statement is a truism doesn't make it or the conclusion reached right, and this is often due to underlying causes. People here seem to be extremely mature and well spoken and I may not seem so speaking as I do, because I appear to be coming from a different perspective both spiritually, theologically at times, and experientially. When I expect to be attacked or disdained I have been responded to with nothing but love so far. I suppose my ire was provoked in some of what I've read and came here almost ready for a fight, but I can see this a thoughtful and mostly loving community. I still must say what I must say, but I must temper my enthusiasm a bit at times and accept the fact that I'll be in the significant minority if not alone. When I compare my ministry experience with so many others here I am surely overmatched and I'm sure many here know that. That would seem to make what I have to say perhaps less valuable or insightful, and it may well be. Yet, as Popeye says- I yam what I yam. That post felt good for me. I'm going to erase my response to sudarats posting thread and start a new one since my initial distaste has tempered a bit. I'm going to instead try and go with smaller posts and ask some questions instead of espousing things as if I already have the answers. Thanks all, for listening to my babbling. Thanks matt-h for keeping me straight here too. I want to be as respectful to all you as you are to me. I really am a bit unsure as to whether I should continue to post here as the value of this site for some of the posters lies, at times, in the very things I dislike about it, and perhaps its not my place to intrude upon this community. I would feel as if I were almost “fighting” with my own family with some of you, and I don’t know if I want to do that.

xman3

matt_hatter

12-12-2006, 07:19 PM

Some of the conclusions made based on these things are merely opinions and personal discernment, which to me hold no greater value than my own discernment and experience.

While I do agree that this goes on, I am basing my thoughts on the fact that I have known one of the men you mentioned since he was 15 years old. I do not want to rehash that relationship, but it is my personal experience, both in this relationship and my time as a MCM pastor that I speak from. But I do enjoy your thoughtful posts.

dust

12-12-2006, 07:32 PM

Xman,
Can I make a suggestion to your posting. every few sentencs, make a paragraph. Just because it would be easier to read. I end up skipping over, and I would like to read what you say.

It's not that these men don't love people; it's where they place their emphasis in their teaching and preaching. After five years of faithful service, I can say we rarely felt loved. We felt like tools for their vision, laborers but not beloved members. We got so very few loving moments, just assignments.

And the preaching of JESUS as LOVE and LOVER of us, well this is not where they go. Eventually, sunday after sunday, we would come home feeling heavy, burdened and far far away from Jesus. It would take all week to get that heavy yoke OFF. Not that anything is black and white, ANd, I don't think we're talking PEOPLE here.

I believe its POWERS and PRINCIPALITIES that have taken over to deceive the leaders too. It's a serious spiritual issue.

So maybe I should correct myself when I speak. I believe the folks in charge, the pastors, etc. are not walking as God intended but are under the influence of POWERS AND PRINCIPALITIES.

This is what we are against. I am FOR their restoration, and redemption and I am FOR them to feel God's love themself. But, I stand against the Powers and Principalites that have replaced God's LOVE with another message.

xman3

12-12-2006, 08:44 PM

dust

That's a good explanation. I'll take your advice on posting also. IF, what you believe is true, then it is indeed a serious matter to be dealt with.

Some might say you are under the influence of powers and principalities though. It's a very difficult thing to for me to accept your belief, and I don't accept it as true. It is food for thought though and would explain your viewpoint.

I do see some of what you are saying come through some of the teaching, however. I might even be able to accept that a few individuals have fallen prey to some level of that sort of deception, but that is just the kind of blanket statement I'm cautioned to avoid when you indict the folks in charge as a whole.

matt_hatter

12-12-2006, 08:55 PM

I would feel as if I were almost “fighting” with my own family with some of you, and I don’t know if I want to do that.

Please continue to post. It is not the disagreement and exchange of ideas that causes problems, it is the caustic and hurting comments that may follow a disagreement. I have learned through my own foolishness to try to avoid flame ups, as it detrimental to the factnet community. I am trying to keep serious threads serious, and fun threads fun. You are more than welcome on some of the fun threads, btw.

I must say that you are one of a kind, most EN defenders come in with guns blazing, and repeat a mantra, "get over it, you are angry, you are bitter, you are deceived." Veteran posters will chew these posts up into bits, as it is like listening to a broken record. I am so far beyond all of that, and it is frankly an insulting argument. We may have different reasons for posting here, but it is NOT (in most cases)because we are bitter and need to 'get over it'.

It has been nice to see someone, who although I may not agree with, present his case in a thoughtful, respectful manner. I think you will find that your responses will be in the same manner.

Matt

john_r_jones

12-12-2006, 09:15 PM

XM3,
I echo the Hatter most EN'ers start out like Dan Ackroyd, "Jane you ignorant ••••..."
Then proceed with a diatribe of how we're all losers and seek to scrape their boots of us in disdain. Frankly though I find it amusing mostly because I ask myself, "Why are you here if we're so insignificant?" As I said earlier growth and awareness come from asking questions without predetermined answers in our minds. One of my favorite authors divides people not as lost or saved, or any other consideration but of either being aware or not. To awake from sleeping is something I think we're all called to do, scripture speaks to this in fact.

Jonesee

wisedove

12-12-2006, 09:18 PM

Interesting discussions here.

lablady2

12-12-2006, 09:25 PM

"Please continue to post. It is not the disagreement and exchange of ideas that causes problems, it is the caustic and hurting comments that may follow a disagreement. I have learned through my own foolishness to try to avoid flame ups, as it detrimental to the factnet community."

X-man: Matt always says it so well. There will always disagreements here, and, as Matt says, most of us have learned through our own foolish mistakes that arguing accomplishes very little and is detrimental to the board. However, like a family, it does happen, and when it does, most of us either apologize or agree to disagree, make peace and move on. Sometimes Factnet makes me crazy, and sometimes I make myself crazy on Factnet, but truth be told, I've developed a lot of affection for the people here.

I can't comment on EN since I was never a member, so I try to spend my time on the more humorous threads (referred to here as Bunny Trails - don't ask me why). They may not be your cup of tea at this time, but you can learn a lot on those threads as well.

I look forward to your posts.

xman3

12-12-2006, 09:49 PM

Well, like I said, I was ready to come in with guns blazing actually and the get over it theme has been a part of my post MCM/MSI days, but seeing the way the people here carry themselves and express their views makes that unproductive and unneccesary to me.

Frankly, in view of the info gathered and related here, making a defense for some of the practices is hard if not impossible.

Its not hard for me to defend many of the people, members and leaders alike though, and I guess I still feel the good outweighs the bad. Having said that, I haven't had the experiences some here have and sometimes ignorance is bliss they say.

One of my pastors had what I considered an exhorbitant salary commensurate with the size of our church and it always bugged me, but I just kept pretty much quiet and accepted it as a neccesary evil so to speak. Neccesary because I wasn't going to change it, not that it was "ok". He was and is my very good friend and brother though and in the end it did not serve him well.

Until this week, I was unaware of the more serious charges of financial impropriety, though as I said earlier I am not sure where I draw the line in determining what is unacceptable salaries and compensation. A ceo of an organization the size of EN could easily expect to make millions of dollars in salary, and I've always felt pastors were grossly underpaid for their work.

Jesus spent a lot of time talking about faithfulness in finances though and it is a sticky issue to say the least. I'd not really seriously ever considered that there might be significant spiritual problems in the finances of EN.

I see big problems in a lot of ministries with lavish living and lifestyles, and find it hard to believe that this is the same thing. I can't begin to defend this aspect of things though, because I just don't have enough information or insight.

Actually I've spent more time explaininmg myself rather than defending anything because I'm still getting a feel for things here. Apparently my church experience, particulary with MSI was vastly different than what is perceived as the norm and I enjoyed my time greatly and thought it barely even resembled MCM. No controlling, no discipleship type oversight, and little pressure to conform to the greater vision.

We had VLI and all that and I guess money did stick in my craw a bit, but I never sensed or found that we were pressured from Nashville over things. Sadly (for me) other completely unrelated circumstances affected our church and I've moved on, but certainly a wiser man for my experiences.

I can not say that I'm completely convinced that there aren't influences present here that are not righteous in their origin, but I'm not so critical as I might have been either. Hec, maybe I am unknowingly influenced in some areas of my life and belief so I tread carefully. I don't have the infallible pipeline to God I'd like to have, so I must glean what I can from what is being presented here and form my "opinions" from that. So far I'm impressed for the most part, and I don't think that this particular section is infused with what I believe is some of the garbage I've seen written about some of the other men and ministries.

xman3

xman3

12-12-2006, 09:56 PM

john r

You've dated yourself there with that SNL reference (a show I watched far too often way way back in time). Anyway thanks for the encouragement and kind words. I'll check out some of the lighter topics as this one can indeed get quite weighty.

coppertree

12-12-2006, 10:23 PM

Hi All Catching up,
Hi XM3
Thank you for your posts. I have read them once, I will go back and read some more. It may be helpful, to leave your lawyer -like mind set a little. If you don't like the conclusions, that well may be but don't throw out expert testimony. Munch on it a little, dwell on it. It is a little like looking at art, or reading a novel in that , not all is cut and dried. I hope this helps.Glad that you are here.}

dust

12-12-2006, 10:42 PM

X: Some might say you are under the influence of powers and principalities though.

Dust: I believe that I certainly WAS under some influence of powers and principalities while in EN. Started getting puffed up in a very disfiguring way, MY pastor, MY church, WE are the best. GET TO WORK, PROVE YOURSELF to CHRIST. And, that spirit that was coming on me was NOT ME, was not feeling right, was NOT what I signed up for when I became a part of the Body of Christ.

You know how I know HOW WRONG that was and what I was becoming was wrong? I am in a healthy church, and I am so much more humble, less zealous, and I want to HEAR what you have to say. I welcome that we discuss with scriptures together these issues and that we allow God to teach us.

You will often see us come under strange attacks here. But that's par for people exposing what I believe to be evil spirits in a ministry. Sometimes our actions, and our postings are not our best behavior, but God's spirit comes in and straightens us out. I see growth in myself and in MANY that come here.

We CAN wrestle issues and we can beat some of them to DEATH, but a quick apology and we do forgive each other. This is God, it's a zigzag for sure, but in the end, the Lord has gathered His sons and daughters for a purpose, and for healing.

sunshinesaint

12-12-2006, 11:30 PM

Dust - you are a true sister in the Lord...wish you lived close by http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

X-Man - listen to Dusts words about Jesus...

I believe that it boils down to His Character and then compare with EN/Maranatha.
How do they compare??

Was Jesus as person loud and "in your face"?

Was Jesus's ministry one of extra "rules" like dataing outside of the Law?

Etc etc...If you are seeking the Lord with your whole heart all these other issues outside of the law should be pretty clear...as Christians we spend too much time mucking around debating this sort of things when we should be on our knees laid our before our KING.

EN I believe takes the focus off Jesus, the real King and onto themselves - through all said above and in personal experiences of all here - the sheperding and over zealous discipleship.
Issue is: Do and Have they done this deliberately?

What is clear is that they have hurt many people...I wonder what Jesus would think of this???

I do not believe we will be discussing this in heaven we will be flat on our faces worshippping the lord, not questioning Him...

although the human in me would love to be a fly on the wall when these "pastors" and "leaders" meet their maker...I do not believe it will be a pretty sight - BUT the Word states teachers will judged with a higher std. I fear for their judgement on their behalf...just for a moment.

Pause...I personally believe that most are valid Christians who have gotten misled by over zealouness to the extreme!!

ISN'T THIS EXACTLY WHAT THE PHARISEES WERE LIKE??

...rules and red tape...in the name of the Lord...

Their actions are complete opposite of what Jesus says, in Matthew 20:20 onwards...
(Just like in EN where in the congregation spend time fussing about their 'positions'..and becoming great leaders in the world...to please God...) BUT Jesus said,

"instead whoever wants to be great among you MUST be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave - just as the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve."

The leaders in EN expect to be served - whenevr I went around to my leader's house I had to her housework, pick up her kids etc etc...THEY ARE USED TO BEING SERVED...seems a little different to Jesus - He was our GREAT leader and yet was NEVER served.

I have no problem serving BUT we also need to be wise and smart as to when we are being used!!

Hope this helps.

PS, I am not bitter about EN I am so happy to be free - perhaps you should visit the "congratulations we are free" post.

Being set free from EN has been the most incredible experiencein bringing me closer to who Jesus really is and quite frankly He is opposite to everything I "felt" or was taught in EN.

Praise God for setting me free!

maranatha1984

12-12-2006, 11:49 PM

xman:Mistakes were and are made and sin was and is committed, but if I could only be a fly on the wall in your lives I think we all know the reality is that it works both ways.

Tikie: Actually Christ makes a distinction between the sins of the Pharisees and those of "regular sinners" as He does between sins of the laity and those in leadership. I think the exact quote is "it would be better that they have a millstone hung around their neck and we cast into the sea than to mislead the little ones". Pretty tough language.

You see sin can be forgiven but its consequences cannot be avoided. IT is not enough to say "mistakes were made." That is a cop out. Peoples lives are being destroyed. A false chuch, IMHO counter to what is taught in the Bible , worshipping money and exalting worldly status on the backs of those who are trapped and sucked into this.

I have an e-mail two days ago from a gal at Auburn whose cousin was recently married into and by EN. She is completely distraught by what she saw and heard at the wedding, as she should be.

Sorry- your post is a carbon copy of Bob Weiners non- aplogy apology. It holds no water with me.

lablady2

12-12-2006, 11:49 PM

X-man: As a form of introduction, it would probably help if we had our individual stories on one thread. Unfortunately, we don't.

For what it's worth, you can find part of my story related to my MCM experience on the thread "asking for forgiveness", my post #1070.

I think it would have been helpful to me if the regular posters had their info on one thread, so you could know who was EN, who was MCM or MCM/EN. Maybe others would like to post the names of the threads that their stories are on. It may or may not be information you want or need. If not, just pass.

maranatha1984

12-13-2006, 12:03 AM

x-man:actually very little scripture involved with much of this discussion

Tikie- Are you rading my posts; lets have a a go at it

EN Quote: we are not a hospital church

Scripture:But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise 1 Corinthians

EN Quote (Steve Murrell): Mighty men of God...etc etc

Scripture:We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! 1 Cor

EN places great value on "achievement in the world and on appearances (in the letter I got yesterday the author commented on the Pastors Armani suit and the 2-3 carat diamond earrings his wife wore)...EN worships, and I use the word intentionally the NFL players and people like Newsboy they hold up "Stormy" as an ideal contrast this with

Romans 15We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! :

I am a Calvinist- but I do not hold my Arminian brothers in disregard, I am Protestant, but I do not hold my Catholic brothers in disregards, this is not a matter of doctrinal difference but between a false church focused on men and their goals and those, who however imperfectly seek to emulate Christ and serve the Church.
EN exists to serve the wallets and egos of the leadership. And I personally KNOW each of the three founders.

sunshinesaint

12-13-2006, 02:30 AM

Well Put!!!!!!!
Hear hear!
Call a spade a spade!

xman3

12-13-2006, 06:17 AM

sorry-your post is a carbon copy of Bob Weiner's non-apology. It holds no water with me

I seriously doubt that it is a carbon copy of anything as it is completely original. I suggest you take the time to read the body of my work rather than quibble with something you don't like as you have missed the boat here. You seem to think your perspective is more valuable than mine which clearly is evolving as I work through this discussion. I thought I clearly stated that I worded my first post (from which I have clearly changed my perspective a bit already) the way I did for some effect. At that point, I didn't know what I'd encounter here so I stirred the pot. I'll probably keep doing so a little I suppose.

In this forum it ceratinly is more palatable, but I'm not convinced. I'm glad you think you personally KNOW (or is it knew) 3 of the founders. I feel your anger where I sit. You may think you are above holding those who believe differently in contempt, yet you disdain my post. Sounds like contempt to me, but I digress.

Actually, I'm not here to defend MCM or any of the leaders or founders of that group, which I might add, had many positive influences on my life and many others. There were, obviously, many negatives also, but we all know that. I was in MCM over 20 years ago, and I am so much a different person now, and would have to seriously seek the Lord on how to deal with someone who kept a timeline of everything I've done for 20 years and constantly tried to tie all of my current activities to my nefarious past.

Having said that, I realize the problem is a real or perceived continuation of these practices, rather than a blatent smear campaign from which there never will be an escape. I'm glad not everyone is the same in the congeniality extended me and my viewpoint so I can remain sharp. Apparantly if something is said that goes against the grain of your virtuous calvanistic or whatever beliefs, it can arrogantly be pushed aside as nothing. I don't mind.

I see many of the things you all do, and some I just flat out disagree with. My choice of how to deal with what I have seen and do see is different than yours. At this point, I don't think Jesus would deal with things as some do. Obviously some here think it is Jesus' method.

I am living in the present time here, and I say that not to indicate others aren't, but merely to explain that I am only here to present, perhaps, a different perspective of the current EN, which I really don't know that much about. What the difference between MSI and EN is besides a name change I am still learning, but I will still maintain there was very little resemblence between MSI and MCM in my vastly different experience.

I must go to work, but I close saying to sunshinesaint-

You call a spade a spade. Then Call that disregard (which a claim to be above is made) shown my view what it is, just as you so heartily agree with 1984's other well put statements.

There's a lot here and obviously I can't respond to or acknowledge all the responses, but thanks all for taking the time. Its a lot to digest for me in such a short time. I've only been here a couple of days after all.

xman3

wildwood_

12-13-2006, 07:35 AM

Greetings xman3....! You said <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Yet, as Popeye says- I yam what I yam<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> AMEN! That I can relate to...cuz I is what I is...which remarkably enough (or not actuallyhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif) is the same Heart I was 30 (ah...except I'm a bit confused about my age being 29....now) years ago when I wasn't 29 but 18...not because of me, but because of the Love of God through Christ Jesus Our Lord.

Only I've come especially through this board to understand more deeply & fully just how deeply, how tremendously, how incredibly wondrously FAITHFUL the Lord's Love has been to me...ALL the time...It was not an accident that I "stumbled" onto this board but the Lord reaching out for me as surely as I thought I was reaching out for a friend (and still am).

I wish that I had the time to type what my heart has been praying for you the last few days, but it is all good things and Joy. And I hope for time tomorrow...but didn't want to leave tonight without at least a "Hello" back at you.

My one thought if you do happen to see this before I get back to clutter it up more....instead of trying to explain EN's viewpoint, just give what yours is....unless that somehow has to be stated differently... Seems like that's what you are really all about anyway. It so much easier to share and to learn...and as tangible as an intangible message board can or probably should be... Exercise discernment or just plain ol'caution because as you say not all eyes who read or fingers that type here have the same hearts...LOL (it was a shock at first...especially when I venture further afield...). But, maybe I said this alread...I think that is a Blessing and a Gift from the Lord...because Jesus Would Walk Among Us...and I have seem HIM HERE A LOT...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif He has wept with His Children's tears, laughed and sung with silly songs, and hugged us all as One by One we each "search the Scriptures daily to see whether these things are so".... And You Know What...What the Word Says IS SO...Always Has Been...from the Beginning.

(Well, I typed more than I thought and said none of what I planned...for a brief "Hi"...LOL Typical for "me"...hmmm, I sound like a hobbit tonight.)

osakadan

12-13-2006, 10:51 AM

xman3 said Actually, I'm not here to defend MCM or any of the leaders or founders of that group, which I might add, had many positive influences on my life and many others. There were, obviously, many negatives also, but we all know that.

Thanks for your post...seems a bit like you are getting the third degree. I am going to ask another question if you don't mind.

Do you feel that the balance of positives and negatives was a balance? Or would you have to say that, overall, MCM was a compromised and deeply flawed organization? That just happened to have some positive outcomes also?

In Japan the extreme rightists push the view that Japan liberated Asia from colonial rule. I once sense this is true but it was just a lucky outcome of Japan's expansionist but failed view.

MCM was much the same. The positive outcomes were just lucky under a fatally flawed rule.

robert_unknown

12-13-2006, 12:56 PM

" A ceo of an organization the size of EN could easily expect to make millions of dollars in salary, and I've always felt pastors were grossly underpaid for their work. "

xman, the thing is a church is NO business. i always found it iritating when pastors compared themselves with CEO´s of businesses on one side, and on the other side, they expect people to sacrifice their time into their ministries, and if they get employed the get payed peanuts.

there is often a double standart in this area.

another problem is, that a church is not a profit-organisation. it does not generate profit by selling/ producing products. they even use the "non-profit" juridical definition, to gain taxation benefits.

to compare a pastor with a CEO is also inaccurate, because a CEO holds miuch more responsability, has a better education, a bigger workload, etc...etc...

in my opinion the comparision of the church with business proofs to me a lack of understanding what a church is about. i do not mean this personally and i dont say YOU lack this understanding, i am talking generally about this subject.

one of the qualifications for leader-/ eldership, that the apostle Paul defines in 1.Timothy is that an elder shall not "love money". there are other several warnings in the bible to avoid the trap of "wanting to become rich".

the emphasis on big salaries, is often resulting in greed, false priorities, and questionable use of funds.

in my opinion it is more important to come back to a real understanding of servanthood. Christ gave a good example about it, also did the apostle Paul.

I dont say, that leaders/ pastors shall earn peanuts. But where is the borderline?

As long as they have to hide it from public, and as long as they gain absurd high salaries without the knowledgte of the church, they KNOW themselves, that they steped over the line.

people who abuse finances are, in my opinion, not worthy for a leadership position in church!

maranatha1984

12-13-2006, 12:56 PM

X3Man:In this forum it ceratinly is more palatable, but I'm not convinced. I'm glad you think you personally KNOW (or is it knew) 3 of the founders. I feel your anger where I sit. You may think you are above holding those who believe differently in contempt, yet you disdain my post. Sounds like contempt to me, but I digress.

Tikie: I welcome your posting here first. Second, I am well known on the board here and my anger is directed towards those who misuse the name of Christ and cause people to confuse Christ with the leadership and the church with EN. I run a small blog and have at least 50 people who have contacted me who have been devasted by EN and the practices there in, who have dropped out of church and have lost their wayt.

This is no mere quibble but your position as I read it is "sins were committed and things happen" it reminds me of Lenin's quote on the Bolshevik Revolution "One must break eggs to make Omlettes". This thinking is contrary to that of Christ.

I knew/know Rice, Steve and Phil very well, Phil was one of my closest friends...and I write about this in my blog. Rice I worked with and Steve I knew well. Steve, I will admit is an anomaly for me- as unlike Rice and Phil as can be.

Having said that you are welcome to FACT. With regards to FACT there are many things that are written here and written in ways that make me cringe it can be heated, insulting and sometimes just plain stupid. But as Winston Churchill said about democracy "it is absolutely the worst form of government that is better than all others."

FACT is all we have- and one of the reasons it is so crazy (IMHO) and out of control is the people who post here were controlled by people and will not put up with ANYONE being annointed leader or controlling posts.

Thanks again for the post

Tikie

robert_unknown

12-13-2006, 01:00 PM

robert_unknown

12-13-2006, 01:06 PM

with one word:
if a man wants to earn money, then he shall go and do business.
if a man wants to serve through a church office, he can not expect the same income and luxury like a guy who works hard in an business environement.

the thing that really iritates me is, when these people use non-profit organisations to gain tax benefits, and use believers to work for free for their vision. they also use qwuestionabel methods to raise funds for their salaries...

how does it fit together to use a non-profit/ charitable/ church environement to live a life like a CEO? thats a contradiction in itself.

in my opinion the CEO argument is not legitim and shows what these guys REALLY are up to!

robert_unknown

12-13-2006, 01:10 PM

if a pastor gets payed like a CEO, he shall be consequent, and pay his employees also like in a profession outside of the church environement. he also shall not expect people to work for free for himself (lawn mawing, babysitting...) or his church. further he shall pay taxes from the income of his church.

another thing to consider is the fact, that the audit EN did on the salaries of their big guys, was done by a copmpany who did compare their positions with secular business environemnts!
and they still found that ie Bonassos salary is 66% >TO HIGH<...

xman3

12-13-2006, 01:24 PM

Greetings,

I don't at all feel as if I'm getting the 3rd degree because I chose to come here and "stir the pot". I look forward to each response and every question since this is a fresh and exciting site for me righht now. I'm somewhat of a computer nut and this site forces me to pray, read the word and examine my own attitudes before the Lord which is a lot better than wasting my time on much of what I do online etc...

wildwood, you are right about expressing my own views rather than trying to defend that which I am finding I know less and less about than i might have thought. Actually, I'm feeling quite a kinship to many of the posters that surprises me a bit, and I like it here, rather than feeling compelled to attack and defend like I may have initially intended.

I suspect that many of the posters here were saved through some aspect of MCM's ministry, so that alone is one of the positive outcomes, and if that is just "luck" or coincidence, than so be it. I was saved as a direct result of Leo's ministry and I will never forget that very important fact. My earthly parents have many flaws and I still love and respect them in all their unbelieving glory (although my mom is now saved, but not my dad), and I guess I'll always feel a bit the same towards my MCM "roots".

I believe the positives did indeed outweigh the negatives. Without elaborating for the time being, the number of people saved and positively ministered to far outnumber those who left feeling abused and devastated. That in and of itself doesn't excuse anything, but is just my observation. The organization itself was more flawed than it was able to recover from, and it's ultimate demise is evidence of that. MSI, or EN now, is still alive and kicking and I for one believe that the men and the ministry will get it right. We will see about that though.

I was never much of a yes man in any of my affilliations and the theology that I disagree(d) with, I just kind of ignored as far as myself was concerned and tried to do what I believed God wanted me to do. Many people don't have that attitude though, and apparently there were many victimized by some of the poor theology and practices.

The more I read the many posts, the more I respect the hearts and beliefs of so many of the people. Some I want to just scream at sometimes, and others I sit amazed at the maturity and wisdom expressed. This is unlike any religious forum or site I've encountered, because of the depth of understanding and maturity of the people, and I really like that, whether I agree or not.

Every church or denomination on this planet is flawed to some degree. Some more than others, and the seriousness of the flaws talked about here are obviously felt to be great enough to cause people to devote themselves to exposing and ultimately bringing down EN unless the sought after evidence of desired change and repentance is achieved. My initial view was that the overall message I am seeing here is overboard and often the methodology employed is no better than the very things that are being brought to light. I am not going to be so arrogant that I can not be persuaded to change any of my views, but ultimately I'll have to be convinced by something greater than what I've seen so far. Each painful story and experience is gut wrenching though, and I understand why people speak and act as they do. For the time being I'm going to spend quite a bit of time here because I want to, rather than I feel like I need to. I fully agree that I will learn much here and that Jesus is present in many ways, hopefully in me and some of my words, and certainly in many others'. I guess i stumbled into something that will have some value to me that I didn't expect, and that's a real blessing.

xman3

xman3

12-13-2006, 01:33 PM

I must agree with the ceo comparison. As I pondered my statement at work last night, I decided that I stand by my statement about pastors being underpaid (though apparently not some of these it seems), but concluded that buisnesses are there to make money, not serve people. That's a big difference.

It was a poorly thought out statement, and it doesn't really stand up as a legitimate argument in this case. I stand corrected. Sometimes I speak before I think. Oops. I'm not surprised at all that so many jumped on that one. You folks are sharp and I don't expect I'll slip much past anyone here.

the humbled xman3

lablady2

12-13-2006, 01:50 PM

"Without elaborating for the time being, the number of people saved and positively ministered to far outnumber those who left feeling abused and devastated. That in and of itself doesn't excuse anything, but is just my observation."

X-man: I appreciate the fact that you admit that this doesn't excuse anything, but I find your response troubling. I guess the fact that, on balance, a little more good is done than harm wouldn't be so bad if we were talking about numbers on an Excel spread sheet. Again, churches are not businesses and people are not statistics.
The harm that is done to some individuals can take years to overcome, and, unfortunately, the damage doesn't stop with that person. Often, the entire family is affected - parents, siblings, and children - sometimes for years to come. I speak from personal experience.

robert_unknown

12-13-2006, 02:03 PM

thanks xman. i know pastors who definitely are underpayed for their work, compared to a average salary. i do also believe that pastors shall not be "poor", but the boderline got expanded too much into an unhealthy direction, in my opinion.

thank you also, for beeing here at this forum. i really enjoy your thoughts and comments, and your way of articulating your thoughts!

xman3

12-13-2006, 02:08 PM

I don't mean to trivialize the sins commited at all. Some are rather serious, others are not so. I did not understand that tikie and maranatha 1984 were the same person either until now. I've read some of the blog, but it's pretty lengthy. That's a lot of people and I didn't know that. In that sense, I see what you are saying.

I think I said that because I was a bit heated at first over this site and initially thought it was a lot of sour grapes. Its sort of like sins were commited, but so what. That doesn't excuse what I'm seeing. Now that I've seen more and heard more, I don't see these things as small as I did originally because I believe that I had the wrong impression of what was going on here.

As I said, I'm evolving as I go along here in my view of what's happening, and I wouldn't speak so flippantly were I to write the first post(s) at this time. I guess I'd really like to be a fly on the wall and see how some of those 50+ were traeted and affected, and then I'd have a more accurate view of your perspective, rather than judging statements in light of all of our personal flaws and limitations.

I don't analyse each statement I make as if it were scripture and some things I say seem to stir up different things in different people for their own personal reasons. I'm learning to be a little more careful each time I speak up here.

For now, I'll let these things keep me in check a bit and use them to help me prepare future posts with more diligence. Somewhere down the line, I'll find a way to say some of the more important things I want to say, but I'm being prepared and learning the ropes here at this point. As I learn more and more about many of the posters here, I also am learning more and more how to better say what I have to say to this particular group. I'm finding it more valueable to listen to what others have to say thus far however, rather than just speaking my own peace. It's harder to glean the value and growth that can be found here if I were to just spout off without first listening to the wisdom and experience of others.

That's as good as I can explain it for now because the Lord is helping me find my purpose for being here right now. It may not be exactly for the reasons I thought. It might be though...

xman3

mdillon

12-13-2006, 02:11 PM

in my opinion the comparision of the church with business proofs to me a lack of understanding what a church is about.

Robert your posts here on this subject is so strong and right on it makes me want to jump and shout. This is not just a problem with EN, though they have taken it up a few notches, but a plight that seizes the majority of the church in America. Its all about the business. Another note about the CEO comparison is that not only do they take ungodly salaries, but the tax codes allow them to claim a ‘housing’ allowance that is non-taxable, which over a lifetime is worth several millions of dollars not afforded to the rank and file underlings.

The second a ‘church’ body signs the paperwork for a 501c3 they have become co-opted by our government, no longer sovereign under His Lordship, a tax shelter for the leaders with the rank and file getting their Holy Tax Receipts that saves them a pittance compared to the tax sheltered millions the leaders pile up over time.

Take away the tax exempt status altogether first, and we will find out who really wants to play church. Do we really think God needs salaried pastors? C’mon, who are we kidding? The Body lives because of Him, He is the head.

Scene just before the Marriage Supper of the Lamb:

God gathers all the pastors from their luxury cars, salary perks, and starter castles and makes them line up one by one and go into a room where a small gathering of first century martyrs are having small talk….

Can you say ‘awkward’…

Robert, thanks for these posts, you need to write a book on the subject.

Xman, I’ve enjoyed the exchange and love your spunk.

dilly

lablady2

12-13-2006, 02:18 PM

"For now, I'll let these things keep me in check a bit and use them to help me prepare future posts with more diligence."

"x-man: It's a message board, not brain surgery. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

It's important that we all take care in the words we speak and the tone we project, but I hope you can relax a little and not feel as though people are lying in wait for you. In my experience, the majority of the people here don't operate that way.

My post was an observation and not a condemnation.

"That's as good as I can explain it for now because the Lord is helping me find my purpose for being here right now. It may not be exactly for the reasons I thought. It might be though... "

When you figure this out, please let me know. I've been saying the same thing to myself for 5 months now.

Peace.

xman3

12-13-2006, 02:27 PM

lablady

That's a good point. I'm not merely saying more were helped than hurt so the positive side wins 220 people to 50. What can I say about the people who were hurt. I don't know all their stories, and a lot of the people I knew and know who claimed to be hurt were not as devestated as others. Even 1, I suppose, is too many. I'm not sure if I fully understand the complete responsibility that EN has in many cases. Perhaps I believe we are more responsible for ourselves and what choices we make in regards to church teachings and practices than you and others do. Perhaps I haven't seen the depth of abuse you have. I don't know for sure what the absolute truth is in this regard.

I shoulder most of the blame in my own life for what occured in my own life during my MCM days, and it never really occured to me to place so much responsibility for people's situations on other men or the church. At the same time, I also see that the pressures exerted by the leaders were at times, almost impossible for young believers to overcome in the context of our environment.

I did not see this pattern in MSI though. I did see it in MCM. Therein lies the difference in my perspective. The reason i said I don't defend MCM paractices or leaders is because of those past things, but I did not realize that these same things were continuing. The only justification for this site would be the ongoing continuation of abuse and control. I guess for me, the jury is still out as to whether this is continuing and that is quite important to my view.

Just because I didn't or don't see it doesn't mean its not there. That really is the crux of the issue I think. Maybe I'm being enlightened.

xman3

osakadan

12-13-2006, 02:37 PM

Obviously this sounds like an attack but that is not really my intention. But to be honest you come across as a MCM apologist. It also feels that you are not ready to accept that a major part of your life was devoted to a cult (of some sorts). It took me 15 years after leaving MCM to admit to even one person that I had been part of a sociological cult.

You came close to endorsing the "dating revelation", you basically swept the negative aspects aside as if they were inconsequential....It really feels you have yet to sit back and evaluate from an outsiders perspective.

I read your posts but have forgotten - have you ever spent time outside the mcm/ms/en group? Except what may be a growing discontent, you seem enamoured of them.

Tikie mentioned getting 50 emails of discontent, abuse, misgivings. That is just the tip of the iceberg. In just my year and a half,I can point to at least 10 people who were messed up. This is out of only about 50 members. I suspect the number would be higher but I just didn't hear the other stories.

lablady2

12-13-2006, 02:44 PM

" Perhaps I believe we are more responsible for ourselves and what choices we make in regards to church teachings and practices than you and others do."

I can only speak for myself, and I have said in several previous posts (which, of course, you probably have not read), that I take full responsibility for my participation in MCM. I spent several years post MCM actively trying to figure out my reasons for being there, and I do think that's the primary thing someone has to do upon leaving an abusive or cult-like group. I figured that if I didn't do my "interior" work, I would likely repeat this cycle, not only in the religious areas of my life but in many others.

The difference is that I was a follower, not a leader, and leadership assumes a greater responsibility. I accept my part and acknowledge my sin. Those who harmed my family greatly? Well, it's been 25 years and I haven't seen it yet. Does that mean that I walk in bitterness and unforgiveness? Not at all. It's just that I expected pastors and leaders to live by the Word they taught.

mcmstaff78

12-13-2006, 02:47 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

osakadan: I suspect the number would be higher but I just didn't hear the other stories.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>My experience has been that religious groups which teach a "perfectionist" theology foster either delusional (I may sin but I'm not a sinner) rationalization or "play acting" (I can't let people see who I really am or they wouldn't accept me). Of course, we all do that to some extent - it is part of our human condition. But one of the things I've noticed very common among those who leave these types of groups is that immense sense of relief from not having to put on an act or lie to oneself any longer. It's being under constant stress to be something, to live up to an unrealistic expectation where your acceptance, being loved, is dependent upon your performance. When that is gone, wow, what a sense of freedom (sometimes too much, but God is gracious and merciful to draw us back into balance if we'll let Him). Many folks simply can't admit this, not to others, not to themselves. So they go about, all bottled up inside.

osakadan

12-13-2006, 02:50 PM

" Perhaps I believe we are more responsible for ourselves and what choices we make in regards to church teachings and practices than you and others do."

That's a bit disingenuous considering many that join are new christians. Of course it is something to aim for but what baby has the knowledge?

osakadan

12-13-2006, 02:54 PM

I forget the exact numbers but don't corporations view one letter of complaint as representing the view of 1000 customers?

That means a lot of discontented people in the MCM group.

xman3

12-13-2006, 02:54 PM

I think some people ARE lying in wait. Most responders are not. I am relaxed and am enjoying this, though maybe a little hyper at times because its how I am. I want to be more careful because I think I have some things to say that get muddled when spoken in a fashion that elicit responses that show me I have been unclear. If it's happening when I'm really saying almost nothing in particular, it will surely happen if I say something more controversial.

I don't feel pressured to be a catalyst to transform this forum into something its not though, although initially I wanted to. I now feel I have "all the time in the world" to share my views as I am led. At first I kind of wanted a quick strike and get out sort of thing. That was pressure, because it doesn't fly well here. I'll try and take your advice though, but i don't want to lose my perspective in the process.

It's easy to lose sight of the Lord's workings and even the truth if I get too bogged down in the trauma of other people's experiences. People's lives are the most important thing here, and I would like to better speak in love and grace than I sometimes do, even if I have things to say that don't appear to fit that mold. Must be that old perfectionist demon I was told I had.

robert_unknown

12-13-2006, 02:58 PM

@mdillion
i read a study recently. it was about the costs that the "new american churches" face: administration costs, rents, salaries, honorariums, travel-expenses... of course these not all of these costs are necessary. ie its no one forcing a big administration upon a church, but the church itself.

these costs have been compared with the "rate" of new salvations in the USA...

the conclusion is: in the USA the average costs for every new convert are US$ 300.000,- ! i am not kidding.

somehow something is deeply wrong. question is: is there no other way to build churches? i am glad that there are other ways.

(Message edited by robert_unknown on December 13, 2006)

xman3

12-13-2006, 03:05 PM

I don't think I'm a MCM apologist. I also don't think it was a cult. Just my opinion based on my understanding of what a cult is. I just happen to believe dating multiple people is unproductive. I also told you I abhored the "revelation". I may well be an EN apologist to some extent though, we'll see. I have experience within and without this lineage, but most of my time was within, I'll grant you that, and I'm not ashamed of it all. No offense taken in the least. Not everyone will see these things in the same light as others, but I am certainly willing to be taught. Thanks for your take.

lablady2

12-13-2006, 03:14 PM

"That's a bit disingenuous considering many that join are new christians. Of course it is something to aim for but what baby has the knowledge?"

That's an interesting point. I was not a new Christian when I came to MCM, but my religious background was a little confused - I was raised in both the Catholic church and a Southern Baptist church.

I can admit that I had many moments/experiences in MCM that probably should have given me pause, things that just didn't "feel right". In fact, they did give me pause, but I chose to ignore them or dismiss them as really not being all that important. Obviously, a big mistake, and I've learned since to trust my gut, my first impression.

It's interesting that my husband, who also had a denominational religious background, visited a fellowship much like MCM in his late teens - the age I was when I was first exposed to MCM, and turned on his heels and walked away almost immediately, recognizing the b.s. for what it was.
I've often wondered how some people were able to see a lot of the craziness for what it was while others of us weren't.

I'm not sure that being a "baby" Christian would make you any more vulnerable. I would guess that the majority of us in MCM had some previous religious background, and still, we were there.

xman3

12-13-2006, 03:20 PM

Though I'm not ashamed of the fact I was in MCM, which I have said multiple times had characteristics that were in error and cultic and stated I won't defend, I am ashamed at much of what happened in that ministry to too many people. I didn't cause any of those problems though, so I would fall into the victim class if anything. I feel I should state more clearly if there is any question in anyone's mind that i don't endorse or defend MCM. That aspect of my life played a part in my coming here because I was looking up people from way back then I've lost touch with. That's all. I don't believe EN and MCM are the same thing though. Don't anyone confuse my statements about EN with MCM. They're not the same to me. Hope that's clear, but if any see it otherwise I'll just accept that perspective from here on out.

osakadan

12-13-2006, 03:20 PM

I don't think I'm a MCM apologist. I also don't think it was a cult.

I can't judge mcm's status as a religious cult but as a sociological cult I would rate it as worse than scientology and almost up there with the moonies.

osakadan

12-13-2006, 03:29 PM

I'm not sure that being a "baby" Christian would make you any more vulnerable. I would guess that the majority of us in MCM had some previous religious background, and still, we were there.

I agree with you labby, there were plenty of people with religious experience but at what point do we actually have knowledge enough to make an informed decision? In my case, other than a christening at 6 weeks of age,I had NEVER been inside a church. And even for the more stepped in religiosity, I doubt many had ever felt the need to examine the message so closely. There aren't many of us who are educated well enough to realize we need to examine and measure ALL that we hear.

ulyankee

12-13-2006, 03:37 PM

btw, I wanted to extend my sincere greetings as well to you xman3... I'm not lying in wait lol and while I've been kind of keeping up with this thread I admit haven't really taken the time that it requires to be able to truly engage in a discussion here. Like Dust I do appreciate posts being broken up into shorter paragraphs b/c I I was having difficulty with the longer posts - my poor aging eyes were going a bit haywire http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif and as a result I haven't gotten through your original posts yet. But I did want to at least say hi.

That's an interesting statistic, Robert, and also I wonder how much of that $ is going toward truly new converts vs. transfers between churches, and where the $ is coming from. Can you imagine if that $ was spent on missions, or the poor, oh wow or the poor. One thing I will definitely say for Every Nation is that as of late it seems their growth in terms of church plants has been outside the US (not counting the Nashville area church plants, that is--there's several more of those too in the last 2-3 years now), and that the newer churches especially in Asia, the Middle East, etc. tend to be in countries that are largely unevangelized. EN's rationale for reaching "every nation in our generation" (Great Commission vs. Apostolic/Dominion/Cultural Mandate) is probably another topic for another day (or thread since there are threads devoted to that topic), but I know I've tended to pay more attention to what has been going on in the US, so last night I scanned through the intl directory to look at churches which have been added in the last year or so. I know that EN's missionaries in these countries truly have a heart for the Lord, a burden for those nations, and sacrifice a great deal personally to be able to raise the support to go.

My late father in law used to go crazy about his denomination, which is one of the oldest "classical Pentecostal" denoms... while there were people who really took the Great Commission to heart, the prevailing attitude in his perspective was that prospective pastors tended to view Bradley County, Tennessee as their mission field.

blessings,
ulyankee

matt_hatter

12-13-2006, 03:37 PM

"x-man: It's a message board, not brain surgery.

Lab, you made a couple of posts that were almost the same thoughts going through my head, so I don't need to repeat them. Let your thoughts fly, x-man, it's cool.

I will say that I agree totally with Dilly about Robert's assessment of the CEO thing. Some EN study came out (ULY help me here) about Phil's salary would be commensurate to a CEO blah blah blah.

Here's the deal: Upon graduation from Auburn U. with a degree in history, he went from selling shoes at PicNPay, to commission sales of metal buildings, (he did not sell one building as I recall) to working for Firestone selling tires. Noble work for many people with degrees in history and sociology. The chances of him becoming a major CEO with this educational background would be slim to none. The logic behind that study was faulty to say the least.

Becoming a 'CEO' within the MCM structure was a perfect way for someone like him to make a great living. He told me to my face that this thing was cultic but it was the only way to control these folks.

Just another thing that kept me up at night after I became a pastor. Think about the struggles a young idealistic couple like my wife and I had when we heard things like this.

The remnant lessons of these experiences have not left me bitter or jealous at 'Nasso's luxurious lifestyle. The experiences have told me to throw up a red flag every time I hear a preacher bragging about his prosperity, because I know he has attained his wealth on the backs of others all the while claiming it is from God. One only needs to remember the cleansing of the temple story to know what may be in store for those who, as 'leaders' fleece the lambs.

xman3

12-13-2006, 03:39 PM

My view of a cult, I suppose, centers on what is preached about salvation in relation to Jesus. The reason I don't feel it was a cult is because people really got saved, filled with the Spirit, and that sort of thing. In no way do I view it as bad as scientology. Having said that, it fits the bill for what you call a sociallogical cult and many of the techniques employed also fit the bill. I am speaking from that more narrow religious perspective. I don't at all disagree with your assessment for the most part, and have no problem saying it was a cult or anything else one wants to term it in that sense.

I read someone else's point on that same topic and their definition of a cult and why MCM wasn't one and saw the responses and have no problem with the prevailing view here. I guess I'll have to accept the fact that I am in the minority in believing it was not a religious cult. This place is the first time I ever heard of a socialogical cult.

I remember so many times sitting in "counseling" sessions where it seemed the councellors were not satisfied until I accepted what they said and acted like they wanted. It was almost the only escape from the situation. That's the kind of pressure I feel here in regards to my view, as if I'll be labled a certain way unless I fully accept it was a cult. I must not realize the damage done and how I was controlled because I won't attatch that label. Given enough time, and maturity I'll come around when I see how a good church works.. Well its been over 20 years of serving God and I still don't see it that way yet.

osakadan

12-13-2006, 03:41 PM

I just happen to believe dating multiple people is unproductive.

The dating revelation as such never affected me. I was happy not to have to worry about it for a while, BUT that doesn't mean that it was correct.

I should have the freedom to date one or 20 people if I see fit. The idea that a group can dictate my actions is abhorrent. I should be guided by my own morals or those of the god I believe in.

This sounds like I had a big problem with the dating thing but actually I didn't. I think it is just indicative of the control MCM sought to excert upon a bunch of naive children.

We can make our own decisions, be it upon on own judgements, or consultation with our parents or pastor, or our god.

lablady2

12-13-2006, 03:41 PM

"I don't think I'm a MCM apologist. I also don't think it was a cult."

x-man: I don't know many pastors in a denominational church who would ask to see my checkbook, pressure me to pay a 20% tithe, or show up on my doorstep to escort us to a meeting because we had been late on a couple of occasions.

I don't know any denominational church that would close down a local fellowship, give the members a list of names of college campuses and tell them they have 5 days to pray and get a word from God as to where they should move. Not IF they should move, but where, and tell them that this is not to be discussed with anyone (as in rational extended family members outside of MCM). And, if I am remembering right, those who did not move were "goats and not sheep".

I don't know any denominational church who would require this of you and then disfellowship you because your baby was born prematurely and almost died -according to MCM, due, of course, to the sin in my life - when, in reality, his troubles were most likely due to the stress of the move and the lack of prenatal care due to a loss of medical benefits when we gave up our job to move.

I'm pretty sure that qualifies MCM as a cult.

xman3

12-13-2006, 03:44 PM

Matt

That's a pretty tough thing to hear. Just another example of insight you and others have that I don't. That probably would have driven me off, and I can't even imagine being a pastor under that way of thinking. How could you even stick it out after that sort of thing? That's kind of a ridiculous view, and quite disturbing.

xman3

12-13-2006, 03:51 PM

lablady

More disturbing stuff. In some sense, I've almost forgotten some of those old tactics and practices because they were so long ago. Some of the horror stories you "guys" know of are just awful. I'm glad I never "rose" into any higher levels of leadership. It dissolved in the nick of time for me I guess. Hard to believe pastors would buy into that trash. It is just plain awful. What more can I say.

lablady2

12-13-2006, 03:51 PM

x-man: If you need verification of the story regarding my son, you can dig up an old copy of the Forerunner, probably an issue from the summer of '81. Of course, the MCM spin was that my son nearly died because our family was under attack because my son would "be a prophet to the nations".

In reality, he will be an engineer as soon as he finishes college.

osakadan

12-13-2006, 03:54 PM

I remember so many times sitting in "counseling" sessions where it seemed the councellors were not satisfied until I accepted what they said and acted like they wanted. It was almost the only escape from the situation. That's the kind of pressure I feel here in regards to my view, as if I'll be labled a certain way unless I fully accept it was a cult. I must not realize the damage done and how I was controlled because I won't attatch that label. Given enough time, and maturity I'll come around when I see how a good church works.. Well its been over 20 years of serving God and I still don't see it that way yet.

A little passive aggresive aren't we? I don't seek to convert you to my way of thinking.

As a non-christian I won't discus the religious "cultic" factors of MCM but by your own admision MCM engaged in many cultic practices, sociological cultism. If you sat in sessions as you say, you have to admit it was cultic. And if that was the basis of their "ministry" all the fruit should be examined.

osakadan

12-13-2006, 03:58 PM

The reason I don't feel it was a cult is because people really got saved, filled with the Spirit, and that sort of thing.

But I would question the number of people who got "saved". Many people ran to, or stayed in, MCM for reason/needs beyond Christ.

lablady2

12-13-2006, 03:58 PM

"In some sense, I've almost forgotten some of those old tactics and practices because they were so long ago."

Yeah, maybe if my son hadn't nearly died, if we hadn't been left with a $22,000.00 bill, if I didn't have to still look at the large scars on my son's chest, and if I hadn't had to work for years to forgive myself for the guilt I felt for being complicit in my son's near death, I could have probably forgotten those old tactics, too.

matt_hatter

12-13-2006, 03:59 PM

How could you even stick it out after that sort of thing?

I didn't stick around. But it did take some time. Planning an exit strategy was going on the whole time I was a pastor, even unknown to my wife. You have to understand the cultish sociological pressure of this group (at the leadership level) to know that a young pastor of a dying church would never stand up and say, "This is WRONG!"

Survival was the key for me, and survival came through a humiliating resignation, a move 900 miles away to a truly foreign land (Ann Arbor MI) and eventually with the love of our dear friends the Caulks, a move back to our home state. (saw them recently, wonderful people).

We all had secret plans back then, I am sure. I am letting you in on mine. Too bad mine just didn't involve getting rich, I should have sung "Lift Your Vision Higher" a few more times, I suppose!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

ulyankee

12-13-2006, 04:00 PM

matt: here's a quote from the 8 April 2006 communique (http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=documents&action=display&thread=11 47468358):

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

On October 5, 2005, at the first meeting of the new board of Every Nation Churches, the executive director was commissioned to enlist the services of two professional firms to review the past three years of compensation (2003-2005) for the top four executives of our ministry and their wives, namely: Rice and Jody Broocks, Phil and Karen Bonasso, Steve and Deborah Murrell and Jim Laffoon (Cathy receives no income). The two firms selected were Capin Crouse LLP, a respected firm that deals with many of the Evangelical groups who are a part of the ECFA (Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability), and Osteen & Associates, a firm that works more within the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches and ministries.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

xman3: Some time back I discussed a similar issue--"what is a cult?"--with a Christian "cult expert" on the ad hoc committee that Maranatha invited in during the 1980s--so his take was from a Christian, theological perspective. He believed that if it was possible to be or stay a Christian in the group, then it wasn't truly a cult, no matter how harmful or controlling it might be. However, it could be "cult-like" if it used thought/behavioral control tactics or engaged in spiritual abuse more often used by "cults" even though the group could still be considered theologically "Christian." He further believed that if MCM had made the changes recommended by the committee, then it wasn't a cult, but that without those changes (which he believed it didn't really make other than on the surface) it teetered on the edge between being a theological cult and a Christian group which used "cult-like" techniques to attract, retain, and indoctrinate members.

(Message edited by ulyankee on December 13, 2006)

lablady2

12-13-2006, 04:01 PM

matt: made me laugh.

osakadan

12-13-2006, 04:04 PM

Dear Labby,

I had heard what happened with your son before and felt for you when I heard it BUT I didn't realize that it had been used to feed the MCM/Forerunner machine. Truly disgusting, it brings tears to my eyes. The cynicism is sickening.

May he grow to be a good and respected man.

40days40years

12-13-2006, 04:07 PM

xman3 I saw a lot of sincere christians in MCM. I view MCM more like a messed up church. Questioning leadership was the same as questioning God, they may not say that to you but it was implied. They also wanted a person to die so MCM could live it was not just about Jesus. In the mid eighties I did not see the horrific stories that are being told but that is just my experience.

lablady2

12-13-2006, 04:09 PM

"May he grow to be a good and respected man.'

Your prayers (so to speak http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif) have been answered. He's a wonderful son and a good person. We keep a copy of the Forerunner in his baby book; serves as a good reminder as to why I will make my own decisions and trust my own judgement. After all, no one else paid the consequences of those decisions, just our family.

osakadan

12-13-2006, 04:12 PM

Matt, it would be interesting to know how many "staff" had an escape plan.

It was the rank and file as well. Mine was being discussed with a dear friend just 6 months after joining. The final plan took 6 months to implement, with a move back to my parents house before a move to another city.

What makes it a cult is that we had to even hide these ideas, to engage subtufuge.

matt_hatter

12-13-2006, 04:12 PM

Although the Capin Crouse report found that Phil and Karen's combined salary was overpaid by a total of $22,798 over a three-year period, it should be noted that the report stated that Phil could have earned an additional $45,000 over this same period in the position he held if he had an MBA or equivalent corporate experience. In any event, as was stated in Palm Springs, Phil has agreed to repay the above-mentioned amount of $22,798.

And those big bullfrogs down at my folk's pond had wings, they wouldn't bump their a$$es as they were trying to escape my gig.

This type of reasoning is pure poppycock. He has a degree in history, not an MBA. Again, a pastor is like what I do for a living, a counselor. I am not a CEO with profit sharing, that is my choice, and that is what a pastor should expect going into his profession!

xman3

12-13-2006, 04:12 PM

Ah yes. Ann Arbor and Mr. Caulk. Imagine the spin I received living in East Lansing at this time. Quite a bit different than yours I imagine. Their's was a major split and problem for us as I recall. Ah, such fond memories.

I can see why this site would cause someone to erupt as they had earlier said. I forget who said it now though. Rarely do I change my perspective on important matters based on other people's stories, but I have to say that I am detesting much of what I'm hearing here. Funny (and I don't mean humorous) how insulated one can be from so much, even in the very midst of the storm.

I have a rather clear recollection of that entire incident now, which I'd long ago forgotten, and your view is quite different from what I heard. Of course, having said that and heard so much it begs the question for me now- is this stuff still continuing in EN?

osakadan

12-13-2006, 04:15 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

osakadan

12-13-2006, 04:24 PM

With all due respect 40, I think there are a number of us here who were having "horrific" experiences in the mid eighties. I can understand that your experience wasn't that way but for many it was.

My experience wasn't so bad as to endanger my life but bad enough that out of almost nowhere I am back discussing issues from 20 years ago...and not out of nostalgia.

But my friend who recently had his marriage disintegrate...it could well be attributed, in part, to what MCM did to him.

mcmstaff78

12-13-2006, 04:33 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

xman3: My view of a cult, I suppose, centers on what is preached about salvation in relation to Jesus.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Well, one could argue about that as well. However, as someone else has pointed out, you need to explore the sociological aspects of a "cult" as well as just the theological aspects of it. Spiritual abuse can occur anywhere just as physical or sexual abuse is not confined to socially ratified marriages. There *are* those pastors in mainline churches who are spiritually abusive, though it seems to be predominate in those places that teach "pastoral rule". Google the term, in quotes, "spiritual abuse" and see what you find.

I was not in MCM very long, not like a lot of folks here, but long enough to have seen a lot of phoniness. I've posted my experiences at staff meetings elsewhere along with the joy of playing B'ball with Bob W and some of the other senior "leaders" and don't really want to rehash it here. Suffice to say if you had to pick folks who reminded you of Jesus, these guys just weren't it.

xman3

12-13-2006, 04:41 PM

All these quick posts and such, and now while I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for an answer, silence. AAArrgh! I ceratinly see how MCM would be viewed as a cult by the definitions offered here, and although it may not fit the narrow religious definition I generally use, it becaomes even more difficult to even give it that much credit.

Never-the-less, I have been aware of much of this stuff, though almost forgotten now, and I have a hard time lableing it a cult in the sense of examples I would choose for cults.

These examples, though they don't really meet that particular criteria, are in a strong sense even worse than what might happen in a group I would label as such. As heart breaking as these tales are, and they are, I will sign off for now and check in later on any responses, but I will ask again in parting- are these things continuing in EN. I would like to know if that is the case, since I never intended to defend MCM anyway, and once again I see why afresh.

I better understand why there is such trepidation regarding these men even today after some of what others have gone through.

matt_hatter

12-13-2006, 04:43 PM

What makes it a cult is that we had to even hide these ideas, to engage subtufuge.

Excellent point, Odan. I told a former pastor about 8 years ago that we were changing churches, mainly because his church had a very weak youth program, and our son was about 10 at the time. He wished us well, and we still go out for dinner with friends from that church. My best friend here at work is a deacon at our old church, yet we still meet with each other frequently for lunch and have times of prayer in our offices.

This COULD NOT, WOULD NOT happen in those MCM days, and I think from testimony from folks like dust, things haven't changed much in the Holy Shrine of Nashville under EN.

Cult? Cultish behavior? Matter of semantics. It was, and is wrong, and not an example of the Body of Christ.

mcmstaff78

12-13-2006, 04:46 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Mattie: This type of reasoning is pure poppycock.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> To put it mildly. You know, if I had a PhD in computer sciences and programming, over the last 25 years I could have earned a few million dollars more. Now that makes as much sense as the line of reasoning they've used.

I wish I could remember the formula we used for determining pay when I was at Lexington. It was a certain percentage of each offering, so the more that was given the more we made. You can see where a "leader" might have a little conflict of interest in terms of advising his "flock" on being financially responsible. In the short time I was there, I not only paid for all my living expenses, but was able to save enough money in, I believe, six weeks to pay for a mover to pick my stuff up from the "staff house" and haul it back down to Athens. I had approx. 1000 lbs of goods in those days, which wasn't all that cheap to have someone else haul. Of course, I never let anyone know I was actually saving money - boy, that would have been a testimony to my "lack of faith".

Mattie, do you have a special recipe for cooking those frogs you gig? Would you be willing pack a dozen or so on dry ice and ship to a neighbor as well as share that recipe? Frogs legs. Man, that would taste good right about now!!

40days40years

12-13-2006, 04:51 PM

Roger that Osakadan. Still even if your church was pretty good leaving is tough if you bought into the destiny thing which you assumed was suppose to be through MCM. There was a sense that if you left you were walking out on Gods best plan for you or even God himself if you were not well grounded. I can see why people have had nervous breakdowns when leaving something like this even though that did not happen to me but I know some it did happen to.

lablady2

12-13-2006, 05:06 PM

"I've almost forgotten some of those old tactics and practices because they were so long ago."

When my son had emergency surgery at Childrens hospital, he was left with 3 - 1/2 scars on his tiny chest. However, as he grew, so did the scars. Today, at almost 6 feet tall, these irregular, ugly scars (stitched in haste) are prominent and only in recent years has my son begun to accept his disfigurement.

When he was small, I would sometimes cry as I bathed him or took him to a pool party or the lake and watched him swim with his shirt on. I remember having more than one mother-son chat, reassuring him that, yes, one day some girl - the right girl - would love him just as he is, scars and all.

You mentioned thinking that perhaps people here were angry and bitter and couldn't let go. Believe me when I say that I was never as angry at MCM as I was at myself for what I, his mother, had allowed to happen.

Your post made me realize that, as painful as it has been at times, those scars were a daily reminder to me to be my own person and to make my own decisions. More important, they served to remind me that my actions and my words could impact the lives of others in a either positive or negative way. They reminded me not to be so quick to be judgmental about peoples choices, to make assumptions about the "sin" in their lives.

I didn't have the luxury of "forgetting old tactics and practices" and today you've reminded me that I should be thankful for that.

matt_hatter

12-13-2006, 05:12 PM

Well, I have deep fried them but now just grill em, you know, heart healthy stuff now! It is so loud at night when I am fishing with the bullfrog croakings that you could not call it "peace in the country". OK, sorry for the diversion. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

I honestly have had difficulty labeling it as a "hard core-moonies-type" cult myself, I really don't know if the wording is worth the discussion, at least to me. What I do know is that very few have come out of this thing with pleasant memories, except for the ones who have made and are making tons of greenbacks.

(Message edited by matt_hatter on December 13, 2006)

robert_unknown

12-13-2006, 05:14 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

This place is the first time I ever heard of a socialogical cult. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

xman, others and i have done much research, and we have proof that the theological roots in some of the main aspects of EN´s "theology", or let it say in a better understandable way "worldview" (there is no real defined and common theology in EN) is in NOLR and therefore the foundation of many of the sociological problems...

i linked the thread in one of my posts here...

dust

12-13-2006, 05:25 PM

X, How do like all this attention? Must be for a good reason.

For the record, I did NOT get saved at EN, and anyone I did help lead to the Lord, NEVER STAYED at EN. I could never figure that. But, now I'm grateful.

Perhaps later I can elaborate on this is a subthread. I am not MCM, EN leadership only, and very much was a part of the way the ministry does things now. I am in my gifting and heart, a passionate evangelist, so I thought I was in the right place.

EN's methods for evangelism are converts making converts making converts through formula cell group model. As an evangelist, this is wrong. The Holy Spirit is REMOVED from the process. It becomes men converting men with a MIND change, not a SPIRIT change, which can only be done with the Holy Spirit.
This was the main reason I had to leave. I could not be a part of building the kingdom MAN'S way and for Man's glory.

REGARDING the CEO/Church leader thing. I come from corporate America. Had our directors done the things with the books that this leadership has done, they would be probably be in jail, and due to our freedom of the press, it would be made known. ANd, for example, once a grave sin with money is commited, they wouldn't continue to get paid (paid from the pockets of the members) the way that Phil B. STILL COLLECTS a very healthy six figure salary. In business, this wouldn't happen.

And, additionally, in business, a good organization will promote and properly pay its rank and file. Also, they would not be able to use and abuse membership for a lot of FREE work, while they made sure they were collecting big salaries.

So, they want the glory of THINKING they are great business men, CEO types (such big egos) and yet they break all the rules that are standard in the business world.

They do it with the WORST POSSIBLE FORM OF MANIPULATION. They use God, and this is a very serious offense. The best way to LOVE THESE MEN today is NOT to be quiet, not to cover, but to cry out to them to repent for their own souls.

coppertree

12-13-2006, 05:46 PM

Hi All-Catching Up,
Xman , You asked , if this stuff was going on in En. Well,

Robert-unknown was an En pastor

Dust- was a recent member of the flagship of En ,under Rice Brooks at Bethel

Ul was in an En church

Dove was in an En church

I hope that this helps. I know how you feel though , I was a bit overwhelmed at first. I am glad that you stayed and listened.Keep posting and I know you will be thinking, and taking things in. And then you will make up your own mind, that is the best part of freedom. }

dust

12-13-2006, 06:08 PM

I was reading one of the letters Paul wrote and this really hit me, the contrast of Paul and any sermon in EN.

The Blessings of Ephesians chapter 1, tells us:

Ephesians: God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing.
EN: We are to bless EN with our financial blessing. Blessings are seen in terms of money. Spiritual blessings are judged by EN.

Ephesians: In love, God has adopted us as sons and daughters and freely bestows on us His grace.
EN: Grace is a term very diminished, EN teaches that God freely bestows his rebuke.

Ephesians: God has redeemed us and lavishes us with his grace.
EN: This church has redeemed you and we don't preach a grace message here. That's the church down the street.

Ephesians: We have an inheritance in Christ and we are sealed in Him.
EN: You may lose your salvation and if you don't do what we say, you lose your standing with Christ.

Ephesians: ALL things are in subjection under His feet, and Jesus is head over all things on each.
EN: All the members here are in subjection to the leadership, who is your head, even before your husband.

Just to believe this alone in the first 23 verses is counter to the way EN teaches.

matt_hatter

12-13-2006, 06:10 PM

So, they want the glory of THINKING they are great business men, CEO types (such big egos) and yet they break all the rules that are standard in the business world.

Bingo!! We have seen stories about top level government/executives using illegal immigrants for domestic help and paying them under the table, and it usually results in their demise.

These folks use some cockeyed religious reason for abusing help, by calling them "handmaidens", like it is some kind of ministry gift. Clean your own toilets, we do.

It is truly the worst form of manipulation to invoke our Great God into a scheme to make one's life more "comfortable".

Called to serve, not to be served!!

dust

12-13-2006, 06:47 PM

Right Matt.
Since I left EN, I have gotten heavily involved in community projects that feed the hungry, lodge the poor, and I was simply shocked to see how MANY churches group together here in WIlliamson County to provide for families. Rice says it takes the "WHOLE church to reach the WHOLE world. I say it takes the REAL church to reach the REAL LOST, poor, sick and needy.

At every event I am at, distributing Christmas gifts, etc. I never see anyone from an EN church. I don't blame them; I would have felt very GUILTY to be out in the community doing these works of charity. Why?

We were very discouraged from fraternizing outside of EN and with other churches or projects. It was a very sheltered existence. Most of the real "serving" hearts of EN are too busy serving pastors so no time to meet the real needs of the community or they have been put in a mindset that it's disloyal to go out and be involved in outside projects.

mcmstaff78

12-13-2006, 06:47 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Mattie: Clean your own toilets, we do.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Better yet, clean the toilets of some of the people in your "churches" who aren't physically able or don't have time to. Clean up after a supper (my priest often does, though I hate to see him half to do it. While I don't believe pastor's of a church should have folks "fetching and carrying" for them, neither do I believe they should be dumped on and treated like the church's hireling when there are lots of able bodied folks around). Listen to the Lord's words in the Gospel of John:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
(John 13:12-15)<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>And also these, from the Gospel of Mark:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. (Mark 10:42-44)<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Don't give me "ruling and reigning" and "God's anointed" teaching based on OT scriptures. Let me see you do the words of Jesus! It's not those that hear the word, but those that keep it who are blessed of God! (Luke 11:28)

coppertree

12-13-2006, 09:58 PM

Hi All and X man,
I am in much awe of lovely wisdom that I see here:

Dust -Thank you for posting here, I refer in singularity to # 878, but in whole I rejoice,
Here you talk about, En taking the place of the Holy Spirit in men's lives. You said so well:

God is removed from the process.." It becomes men converting men with a MIND change, not a SPIRIT change, which can only done with Holy Spirit ."

This would be my major charge against them and the most dangerous.
}

Xman -that is why you had such long sessions with them.

coppertree

12-13-2006, 10:05 PM

Hi Lab Lady
Than you so much for your involvement here ,and your sharing your wisdom and posts here. Your post #1330, especially hit home with me. It was about the scars,on your son , that was profound, to say the least. Thank you.}

lablady2

12-13-2006, 10:47 PM

copper: Thanks. Had to admit, it brought up some emotions...again...that I wasn't exactly prepared for.

Also, I forgot to add one very important point in that post. It seems that x-man was able to leave MCM relatively unscathed. Please correct me, X, if I am wrong, and if that's so, I am happy for you. I would not wish an experience like mine on anyone. However, it's important to realize that MANY who post on this board, not just me, left with painful reminders they live with to this day.

coppertree

12-13-2006, 11:39 PM

Hi LL,
I think that X man is more affected than he knows, he said some things were setting home to him. I was like first when I first came here, but as I read and saw more, the very present loving Shepherd showed me more. Not unlike what you felt today. I think that it unending process, as Paul said, not to let any man think that he has arrived..}

dust

12-14-2006, 12:05 AM

Matt: I am not a CEO with profit sharing, that is my choice, and that is what a pastor should expect going into his profession!

Dust: They go out and seek "leadership" material, and they take giftings that the world loves, dress them up to look like spiritual giftings. This is not led by the Spirit and it's dead works.

Maybe such a person can even preach the gospel as they could deliver a good sales presentation or ad campaign.

The problem: Gifts and leadership do NOT move heaven. Faith moves heaven.

Gifts can grow a church population, but not move heaven.
Gifts can raise a lot of money and even implement fine schools, but not move heaven.
Gifts can win political offices, but not move heaven.

Faith moves heaven. There is no faith when men think it takes MBA, lawyers, doctors, mayors, CPA's, scientists, and entrepreneurs to build a church and take position. That just builds a worldly vision that never really satisfies.

That's why there is NO HEALING in these churches, but betrayal. There are no MIRACLES, NO REVIVAL, for there is no Holy Spirit. There is just a bunch of good looking, well versed, positioned money makers, with outgoing personalities.

But they are not moving heaven. That takes faith in God and faith in God cannot be replaced by faith in men.

jesusisawesome

12-14-2006, 03:29 AM

Hi Xman, and welcome to the board.

My story is posted in scattered bits and pieces here and there over the board, and I am "Alaina" in Tikie's blog, where my experiences with this ministry are summed up.

I walked away years ago and left all of this behind, thinking my path would never cross with this ministry again. Posting my experiences on a public forum is a decision that I wrestled with, and one that was not made lightly.

Within the past couple of years, I have 3 friends that were all in leadership positions (leaders that I worked with, and that were known for their years of dedication and faithful service) that left due to control and abuse of authority. These 3 friends have been involved with this ministry from MCM days all the way through the current EN . . . and they have very painful stories. (Hopefully, one friend in particular will be sharing her story soon.)

As I've walked with them and heard their stories, it has been a repeat of my own story in many ways, only their experiences are over a longer period of years, spanning the full history from MCM to EN . . . for all 3 friends. As one of these leaders stated to me a couple of months back when we were discussing EN trying to deny the past and say they've changed and are different, "Give me a break, it's the same thing."

I did a lot of soul searching and praying before ever posting on FactNet, and it is the story of my 3 friends that has been the motivating factor for me to be here. History has a way of repeating itself if the lessons are not learned from it.

What I see is that the abuse has not just been limited to a few people. I can sit and count off of the top of my head a dozen people I know that were hurt through the abuse and control and false accusations . . . these are first hand stories of people that I knew. It is very serious stuff. From an international student(struggling financially) that was kicked out of Phil Bonasso's church because he didn't tithe, to a girl that was accused of jezebel and witchcraft and sent home from an outreach, all because she was giving her opinion to a "leader" on the best driving route to go.

Then there are the stories that I don't know personally, and the ones that left because as leadership said, they "couldn't cut the grade". In all of my years of involvement, I can only recall one couple that left (at least in my circle), that had the blessing of this ministry. Every other couple or individual I know that left was looked down upon as giving up on their 100% commitment to God and becoming compromisers, regardless of the reason.

During my years in this ministry, I've also watched new baby Christians that weren't "sharps" leaving in worse condition than they were when they first joined this ministry.

Personal observation: The walking wounded that join have a tendency to become even further wounded, rather than receiving the healing balm that Jesus would have applied.

jesusisawesome

12-14-2006, 03:30 AM

Xman, I want to share with you that the board here has also helped me personally. The Lord did a tremendous amount of healing and restoration in my life over the years from the pain of being blackballed and called a jezebel, but there was some residual stuff that I was set free from through the support and love shown by former pastors that are posting on this forum.

I am thankful for this now, but I would have loved to have had a place like this to come to years ago. My healing and restoration would have probably taken place at a faster rate. Regardless, I am so grateful to the folks here that are sharing and caring.

Jeremiah 23 is a serious warning for those that would abuse His sheep. If there wasn't some serious abuse going on, this place wouldn't exist in my personal opinion, and God is using this forum to help the confused and hurting.

I don't agree with everything that is posted here, and I have also posted comments that I regret posting, but this is a place where there is freedom to speak, and freedom to exchange ideas without censorship. Something else I am deeply grateful for.

jesusisawesome

12-14-2006, 03:49 AM

84: "there are many things that are written here and written in ways that make me cringe it can be heated, insulting and sometimes just plain stupid" . . . "one of the reasons it is so crazy and out of control is the people who post here were controlled by people" . . .

JIA: Leadership said "jump". I said "How high do you want me to jump?!" Then upon leaving this ministry I had a "knee-jerk" reaction to any threat or hint of control . . . a natural reaction when you've walked through an abusive situation.

It's a great observation Tikie makes, and I think he's right on in the comparison to what is happening here. Hopefully those that have not walked through this abuse can really hear with their hearts, and not just write this stuff off because it wasn't their experience.

It can sometimes be very hard to understand and show empathy to someone until you have walked in their shoes and experience what they have experienced. A lack of personal experience does not invalidate the abuses that have occurred.

jesusisawesome

12-14-2006, 04:03 AM

Lablady: people are not statistics.
The harm that is done to some individuals can take years to overcome

JIA: Jesus stopped for the one, and emphasized the importance of the one.

Matthew 25:40 - To the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even to the least of them, you did it to Me."

jesusisawesome

12-14-2006, 04:14 AM

Lablady, thank you for sharing your personal experience. The MCM spin and resulting disfellowship . . . http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif . . . I'm sorry for what you and your family have had to go through Lablady.

I'm glad that you are hanging out with us. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

xman3

12-14-2006, 04:48 AM

Hello again to all of you,

I work at night and sleep (sometimes) during the day, so I have literally slept on some of this. I'm sure anyone posting knows I can not possibly comment on all of what is written or my post will be even longer than they are now.

I'll probably post several times here as is my habit, befre I leave for work. Several quick thoughts. I have to admit that as I think back, some of the things told here come back to memory. Some of the experiences being related were quite serious and made the MCM headlines, so to speak. The version and particulars were not quite the same, but the gist of the situation was not always unknown to me.

Some are so awful I just can't even comment because at this time, I don't even know what to say. This is why (one of the reasons) I question whether it is my place to ever come to this group and bother trying to express either the good of EN or the bad of what is being presented here. PLEASE, hear the spirit of what I'm saying in that.

In no way am I even hinting anything like its a bunch of sour grapes and these people won't listen anyway. It's because my heart is broken over this stuff and I would feel even more so now that it would almost be insulting to many of you to do so in the face of what you've experienced. It brings tears to my eyes, and I am so sorry.

Lablady-

I almost (almost because you did, like all of us choose to be here), feel like I caused these horrific memories and things to come up and be told. I am deeply grieved by your experience and words fail me at this point. I have tears in my eyes even now as I write this post, and I am so sorry for your experience. I see why you stay on the lighter side of things here, because the heavy stuff is really heavy indeed. To be able to forgive and move forward is a testimony to God's great faithfulness and grace, and of your own heart of love and humility. To say you were never in EN is quite an understatement to be sure. I imagime you would run the other way as fast as your legs could carry you.

Since I have a bit to say, I'll guess on my post sizes and start a new one when I think I'm nearing the magic 4kb mark.

matt_hatter

12-14-2006, 04:53 AM

LL: Not IF they should move, but where, and tell them that this is not to be discussed with anyone (as in rational extended family members outside of MCM).

Labby, this was from your 1325 post. These types of demands are so foreign to me now that I just look at them and my eyes cross. But I know the things you say were true. The same thing happened during the big send out from Auburn. M&M, as I recall, really did not want to go to Ann Arbor in the first place.

JIA:I've also watched new baby Christians that weren't "sharps" leaving in worse condition than they were when they first joined this ministry.

I think many of us saw this, and I was guilty as charged of treating the 'non-sharps' with less interest. I can only imagine the pain some of them had, hearing a message that spoke of a total commitment ( I despise that false friggin' phrase) to God and one another, but in reality, it was the zit free, frat and sorority types who ALWAYS had the upper hand.

Testimonies from EN-er's on this board seem to confirm this ugly caste system in today's organization.

A few folks' faces have come to mind as I have typed this post. It is with deep regret that I treated them with disdain. Have mercy Lord.

matt_hatter

12-14-2006, 05:10 AM

I question whether it is my place to ever come to this group and bother trying to express either the good of EN or the bad of what is being presented here. PLEASE, hear the spirit of what I'm saying in that.

I cannot speak for Labby, but I can for myself. Though we may disagree, because of the humble way you are presenting yourself, I think you do not have to worry about feeling like you are the cause of any bad feelings surfacing, at least in me.

I am so far past all of that, and I mainly hang out on the fun threads, because life is fun. That is not the case for all in here, and was not for me a few decades ago.

Most who are posting in here, from what I have gathered, are not whining about the past, they simply want to (1) fellowship and (2)create a forum to have current EN members come and read these stories and think about what they are involved in.

If some of the things said confirm some of the current practices in their church, I would urge them to not give up on God, simply find another church. PEOPLE CHANGE CHURCHES ALL THE TIME IN THE REAL WORLD! Cultish teaching wants someone to believe this is a life changing decision (leaving an EN church) and the consequences will be horrific! Uhhh...not so much. Not happy? Leave. Simple. God will be with you all the way!!!

lablady2

12-14-2006, 05:16 AM

x-man: It has been 25 years post MCM for me, and my son is now a wonderful, grown young man with a beautiful daughter of his own. He has no recollection of MCM or our life in Boulder. To be honest, he knows what happened but we have never dwelled on the MCM/religious connection to his traumatic birth. His understanding is that he was one of several very sick babies in a neonatal intensive care. The most important thing to me is that he lived, not that he almost died.

Please don't feel that your post caused me to recall these events; in fact, that was the point of my post - I live almost every day with a reminder. It's almost impossible to look at my son and not be reminded because I so appreciate that I still have him. I look at my granddaughter and think about the possibility that she might never have been born. This is why I stated in my post that lives, generations of lives, can be affected by the thoughtless actions of a religious organization.

xman3

12-14-2006, 05:19 AM

As for myself. I know it's hard for many to accept the fact that I was "unaffected" by my MCM experience. I have to accept that many will just keep saying that I must be affected more than I know and related stuff. So be it. Given all these experiences, I think many have "earned" that right.

I was not unaffected. No one in any level of leadership was. It's just that I dealt with it many, many years ago, or rather me and the Lord did. As I said several times, my MSI experience was nothing like my MCM time. Nothing at all. I "joined" MSI as a direct result of Pastor Ray McCollums ministry. I won't elaborate any further, but suffice it to say that despite present circumstances, I would find it hard to believe that even to this day, pastor Ray would think he was duped in his experience. I can't say for sure though.

Its strange in a way, because I had an experience which once again I just shoved aside for good reason which I again won't elaborate on, where I was told I had some sort of anti-maranatha demon of some sort (can't remember the exact term used). It centered on my changing view of personal prophecy and my own prophetic bent. This councel was so far off, that I simply ended up gritting my teeth and waiting for the person to leave town rather tahn arguing, which I started to do. I passed on any prayer or deliverance.

I feel like the same thing when people tell me I was more affected than I think, as if through these posts and words such insight can be gleaned about me with such sketchy knowledge and presentation. The Lord can do some wonderful things in our hearts, and he has graced me tremendously in this area. I am affected, but I believe in a good way more than you know, despite all that transpired.

My beliefs and theology or whatever you want to call them are a result of far more than MCM or EN teaching and theology. Actually, there's is a minority representation in my life. I'm a Bible nut, not a church nut.

As Matt has said once before, I am one of a kind. I hear that more than you would know, because I do not now or ever before adhere to the party line just because it is so. Of course, some call me a rebel and you can imagine the intensity of the sessions I sat in trying to sway my views, but it just never took. Not then, not now.

Clearly it should be seen that that's not because I'm an arrogant fool who always thinks he's right, because I've already evolved so much in my view here in this short time. It's because my faith and trust lies in my savior, Jesus Christ and my faith is in the Word of God and the love of my Father.

I sense 4kb coming....

lablady2

12-14-2006, 05:34 AM

"As for myself. I know it's hard for many to accept the fact that I was "unaffected" by my MCM experience. I have to accept that many will just keep saying that I must be affected more than I know and related stuff. So be it."

Actually, I can believe that you might not have been so affected. This is a generalization, and Matt touched on it earlier, but I think it's safe to say that "key" people, such as athletes, college kids from wealthy or prominent families, physically attractive people or people who towed the party line faired much better than others...at least for a while.

There are so many variables that come into play - the amount of time you were in MCM, which fellowship and which pastor you were under, if you were single or married with kids, if your finances were pretty stable - that I couldn't presume to say that all people were affected in the same manner.

matt_hatter

12-14-2006, 05:36 AM

Just curious, do you feel comfortable sharing your MCM location, time and place? NOT trying to psycho-annie-lize you, just curious.

I believe there are some who were unaffected, or possibly just a minor blip in their lives, in fact I know one quite well, been married to her for 28 years.

She has no interest in this stuff, and we rarely talk about our years in MCM, unless it has to do with people we are still friends with.

So yes, even folks who were in full time ministry can come out rather unaffected. I know others like this. Me? The remnant with me is mainly involving my distrust of jiveass preachers. Sorry to be so blunt, but that's me.

osakadan

12-14-2006, 05:41 AM

X3, Thank you for the thoughtfulness of your posts. I was wrong in my assumption of you being an apologist. While we definitely don't agree on some points that is ok. That you don't attempt to invalidate people's experiences is more than enough.

xman3

12-14-2006, 05:47 AM

I think I'll get ready to go now, but I will be pondering this stuff throughout the night. My head is full of these traumatic occurances and fresh recollections of things I'd mostly forgotten, and it is easy to get caught up in the emotions of the postings at first. Thr truth is, though, most of these things occured so long ago we've all dealt with them and received healing and forgiveness, most likely long ago or even on an ongoing basis.

I'm going to prayerfully evaluate my thoughts and position in reagards to EN in view of many of these things and my current knowledge and experience.

In one sense, the past is just that, yet it has such strong implications on who we are today that that is really not much of a statement in many cases. I will say here, in a momentary time of weakness (tongue in cheek), that my wife did not escape as easily as I did. The trauma of her experience trancended mine exponentially. I often thought I was made of stone because I was so able to move forward where I felt others could not, and I don't mean I thought I was a rock of faith. I know now, there is a reason that God has made me as I am and it is not so I could happily go on my own way despite all of lifes trials, but so that I can better serve others who are not able to do so so "easily".

I have a great job where I can do all the praying and thinking I want to as i perform work a well-trained monkey could do. Probably not as good as me though, I hope. I'm sure I'll be back tommorow though so God bless you all and have a good night (or day as the case may be in the marvelous world of the internet).

xman3

matt_hatter

12-14-2006, 05:48 AM

That you don't attempt to invalidate people's experiences is more than enough.

Niiiiiice point Dan-o. This will get a factnetter steamed more than anything! X3 is a smart man or woman.

matt_hatter

12-14-2006, 05:53 AM

that my wife did not

Make that a smart man. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

matt_hatter

12-14-2006, 06:13 AM

Sorry X3, I went back and read your first post and got the info on the ministry and timeline. One good thing about getting older and losing your memory, you can't hold grudges.

sameo

12-14-2006, 07:38 AM

Hi xman, welcome! :-)

Am curious, do you think the fact that you were able to sit in a staff meeting for 8 hours and discuss issues you didn't agree on, helped you move on? you were able to have a voice...and be heard. At least if nothing else get things out in the open-about how you felt.

Just wondering...

thanks so much for your posts!

SameO

xman3

12-14-2006, 01:43 PM

I'm back. More musings from the xman. Xman merely means ex member of the 3 churches, though EN was merely being started when I left, or rather was left. Its not my usual online moniker, but i changed it so in another or other forums people can't so easily google it and place me in MCM and thereby discredit my past. How sad is that, that I still must avoid that attatchment. I'm not as unlike some of you as it appears sometimes. I must chuckle that sameo thinks they were staff meetings. Thankfully in the staff meetings I attended they weren't 8 hour long, but apparently some were.

These were personal meetings just to discuss my disaggreements. I remember one in particular I brought a tape recorder so I would have evidence of what was said, and in turn the pastor(s) also recorded it for whatever reason they felt was necessary.

I did have a voice I suppose, but it was due to my friendship with Leo, and I think, a recognition of some of the strengths I had in relation to understanding a little scripture and a bit of a prophetic annointing. Of course, that was then and i am far more God fearing and circumspect in dealing with the prophetic now, and have some real questions about what was and wasn't "the Lord".

These meetings had little if any effect on our own churches' direction, and were more a trial for me than anything. I didn't receive good explanations, and more time was spent trying to get me to come around than any listening. Time has vindicated me on many, many occasions, and years later I had that acknowledged to me.

Several things enabled me to move on. One day, the Lord spoke to me (at least I'll say He did, whether He did or not is almost immaterial) a scripture that helped. After Moses died, the Lord spoke to Joshua and told him Moses was dead. Now he was to lead the people. The Lord told me Maranatha was dead. Move on, so I did. Almost too simple. Also I was part of a "rebellious" segment within the church that held some differing views and we all felt vindicated and free to believe and live as we felt was right. Most notably, however, was the fact that I just never put my trust in MCM or any pastor so nothing i really trusted in was affected. My future plans were much affected though, and my ministry aspirations took a hit. Good thing for me.

Like now, even back then I did a lot of things that I didn't like or agree with because I felt God had placed me in MCM. I still believe He did, and I take the good things with me still, and as far as my life is concerned, never worried too much about the evil control and theology because it no longer applies to me.

Thanks all for giving me a voice here. Next post.

wisedove

12-14-2006, 02:16 PM

Good morning, x3,
and welcome. I have been trying to catch up a little as I have had a lot going on this past week, and had actually gotten away from the board for a while before last week.

I like the word the Lord gave you concerning Joshua and Moses. Perhaps MSI/EN thought they were going to be like Joshua and carry on leading the people, but many were led astray.

The moving on part is awesome, too. MOVE ON. Weeping endures for a night, but joy comes in the morning. weeping endures for the night, but JOY comes in the morning. weeping endures for the night, but JOY comes in the morning.weeping endures for the night, but JOY comes in the morning.

that's how many times i heard that THIS week. I lost a young friend (posted about it already on another thread in general chat) who died in her sleep Fri. night. My other friend and I have tried pondering God's plan in this, leaving a husband with 3 YOUNG boys and no wife or mom to wake up to anymore (though I pray God sends them a very special woman when the time is right). Some dead bones aren't to be prophesied to. Let them lie. I pray for EN, and for the body of Christ at large, for a spirit of HUMILITY to sweep across His body and all ministries involved. The spirit of pride in ministries makes me nausiated. The era of "It's all about me" needs to die. It's supposed to be all about JESUS.

xman3

12-14-2006, 02:25 PM

I was talking with my wife about the progression of this thread and I'll share a bit of it. I came here with a certain agenda I suppose, but things have gone far different than I thought they would. That comes as no surprise, I'm sure, because several people told me that would happen. Such wisdom. I am so glad I did not take the approach of chiding everyone with the old get on with life theme and instead, listened first (mostly).

I was telling her this morning that I almost feel a bit wishy washy about myself, because I am generally pretty firm in what I believe and perceive. Yet in a mere 3 or 4 days I have an entirely different view of many of the regulars here, and this site and its purposes in general.

I hadn't given much thought to the depth and breadth of the real pain and damage done to so many people through the years. Its not just that memories of incidents and such have been rekindled and I am somehow feeling afresh the old grievanves and disagreements. Its more of a clearer understanding and first hand perspective of how actual people who love God were seriously abused by some of these men and the ministry.

In the midst of the spin put on these things, it was easy to put the blame and stuff on the people who were hurt, rather than the people doing the hurting. I may recall lablady's situation in the back of my mind and some of these others, but always accepted that it was their weakness and sin that brought those circumstances about, and that only served to strengthen my notion that not following the MCM path would lead to those things. Makes me want to puke now. When I hear real people telling the other side, I wish I had more sense back then.

I suppose what I'm saying, is that even though I think I don't need healing or something like that, I really did need to hear this stuff "again". With many more years of growth and maturity behind me, it actually is somewhat freeing to hear that these practices were wrong and that real pastors and churches treat people with the love and grace that God intends. Of course I know that, but in my mind i've probably sold too many other ministers and ministries short because they didn't measure up in other areas.

Its difficult to articulate, but I sense a greater freedom to accept even some my own shortcomings that I've allowed to play a part in my choice to not pursue some of what I feel God has called me to do. Darn it, I just have to swallow my pride and accept the fact that although i was not affected in the sense that I hold onto past bitterness and anger and am unable to move on with the Lord, I probably have made chopices based on these things that have affected the direction I've gone.

That's not easy to admit after spouting off how unaffected I am. Another dose of humility for the xman. Though personally I seem to have thrived despite these things, there are undercurrents in my thinking that have kept me from, as the army says, being all that I can be. No sense holding on to false pride around here though, as I feel real love and kinship to many of you without ever having met most (maybe). The annonymity of the web does hide who we are to an extent, though anyone who knows me and reads these posts will have no problem "guessing" who I am.

At least one more post of musings to come. Got to get this stuff off my chest I suppose.

lablady2

12-14-2006, 02:35 PM

"I wish I had more sense back then."

Okay, you made me laugh. I think the title of this entire website could be "I wish I had more sense back then".

Guess that just makes you a member of the stinkin' human race.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

xman3

12-14-2006, 02:44 PM

For the moment, I'll just say that I see God had His own reason for bringing me here, and used my ire to get me to register, and then calmed me down enough to listen. Like you all haven't seen that many times before.

Anyway, I think I'll hang around awhile and see what else the Lord wants me to learn. I may think I have things to say, but they are taking a backseat for now as I prefer His purposes to mine. I'm not really beholden to any church or pastor at this point anyway, so I'm relatively free to take in what I ought to and "chew on it" for awhile as someone suggested, and see where it takes me.

As a new member I suppose I've been granted the privilige of hogging a new thread rich with responses and it will be mildly dissapointing as it winds down. Without having a stir the pot agenda, I won't be able to illicit all that response so I'll take what's been said and add it to my cache of spiritual knowledge and join the fun with a new perspective.

I might still have a day or 2 left in me though, of stuff to say and I'm sure you'll all bear with me. I guess I won't be the one to make EN's case like you hoped, even though I hold a different view of the current organization. Its not that I couldn't do so, because I believe I have some good ammo so to speak, but in this place I don't really have the drive to do so as I had earlier. I think that God uses this group to different things with different people and He knows a little better than I do.

Since I was incorrect in my initial perspective of the MCM/MSI/EN section, I believe my intended approach was also incorrect. For now, I'll take this new approach and thank you all for listening and responding in the fashion you have. That'll be enough babbling for now.

xman

sas1963

12-14-2006, 03:08 PM

xman - oh my gosh - I just realized that you may well be the person who would know this. I have read on and off here cause of my friend. Reading here has helped me relate to that experience.

I wrote about my friend on an earlier post. I am sure they were in an Every Nations or moringstar church in mid michigan, (Lansing maybe?) Anyway, if this is you guys can you tell me why they didn't want people to celebrate christmas? http://www.biblestudying.net/christmas.html

They seem to have harsh views on women too.

I have turned my papers and stuff in and - gosh!!! look at the time - gotta go pack my stuff in my dorm and get out of this library!! Home!! Mom!! Hot chocolate!! Real food!! I will check back to see if you know these guys after I get home.

By now - luv ya guys!!

matt_hatter

12-14-2006, 03:20 PM

I won't be able to illicit all that response so I'll take what's been said and add it to my cache of spiritual knowledge and join the fun with a new perspective.

Hey, just another member of the diverse bunch of folks in here, that is what makes it good.

I am amazed at how so many folks in here lead happy, healthy lives now. Free from the paranoia of doing something "wrong" and resting in the Grace of God.

Speaking of paranoia, the incident with the tape recorder...the need for both parties to record a conversation...indicates to me such an unhealthy, church family relationship.

That it was necessary on your part was probably so you could not be backbitten to the gates of hell (SOP for MCM) and that they did it was pure freakin' intimidation! Cultish to the max.

"It was for freedom that Christ set us free..."

wisedove

12-14-2006, 03:33 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Home!! Mom!! Hot chocolate!! <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

good stuff, sas, goooood stuff. Enjoy!

xman3

12-14-2006, 04:22 PM

sas 1963

Only one was in MSI and I don't need to go to the site to check. It is the most heartbreaking story of my life involved here and they are so ruthless in their error and pride that they are devastating as many lives as they can including their own family. If I thought I could do so without causing unnecessary damage to anyone they could contact I would share a very twisted tale. I constantly feel their wrath and my entire family has been seriously affected by their trash. I would advise you to run as fast from anything to do with them as you would run from MCM or the devil himself. I can only tell you he was the best friend I ever had and merely writing this brings tears to my eyes yet again. Pray for his family as the situation appears hopeless outside of a miracle. Fortunately God is in the buisness of performing miracles though, and I tenaciously hold out hope for the sake of his wife and family and all those they encounter. I am sorry that I can not paint a better picture, believe me.

sameo

12-14-2006, 04:25 PM

Wow-amazing, xman...thanks for sharing your heart so openly.

Ok, where'd that post go you made? please don't make me think I'm crazy! hehe I read you said you met with the 'staff' in 8 hours of meetings, or something like that. I really didn't think it was a 'staff meeting' in the MCM/EN sense. (trust me, I know those could be 8 hours long) ha Anyway, it doesn't matter-I was just wondering if venting in that meeting/get together(whatever kind it was);-) helped. Did they let you share your thoughts? did they listen...or try to tell you how wrong you were?

that is verrry interesting that they too recorded you. I agree matt...i would understand xman recording, but that was plain wrong for them to do that-I agree, they were using pure, intimdation tactics.

You know, the hardest part of being in maranatha was not having a voice of my own,(or I should say not being able to use it) and the hardest part being/getting out was trying to find it again.

xman3

12-14-2006, 04:46 PM

Matt

Unhealthy indeed. That meeting caused me a lot of personal grief, but I got over it. The vindication was extra sweet, though given the ultimate results bittersweet.

I suppose I did say meeting with the staff. It was a 1 on 3 meeting. I was allowed to share every thought and given complete freedom to lay out my case scripturally. I was not "allowed" to share these things with other church members (at least not openly, but you know how rebellious kids can be), but always had freedom to share with the staff, or really Leo. He was always firm in his convictions and methods, but treated me as fairly as i believe he was able. I still just love the guy no matter what ever happens. Its really hard to ever say anything bad about him and I very rarely do. Nothing changed, of course. I was really just a nobody then so to speak.

lablady-

That is a good title. I wish I had thought of it.

matt_hatter

12-14-2006, 04:48 PM

and the hardest part being/getting out was trying to find it again.

Yeah, well, you found it... Keep talkin'! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

sas1963

12-14-2006, 04:58 PM

Just one final check of my email before I hop in the ol car and head home. Saw these last posts. Thanks Wildwood you are right - good stuff!!!

xman, wow - one other guy here knew something of them too. So one of them was in EN? Are they really as harsh to women as my friend says? She is really scared of them. Were you serious that I should get far away from them? I was going to email them but my friend said to be careful. I won't keep asking - this will be the last time - but any thing you CAN tell me might help my friend who I think still knows people around these guys. While this is an EN thread there was some connection - and I came here originally cause it was a cult site - but they don't have any thread on these guys. Maybe someone should put one up and look into them. It might help a lot of people like my friend.

Again luv you guys - can't check now till I get home - best to ya and Wildwood - you have some hot chocolate and sit by the fire too!!!

xman3

12-14-2006, 05:19 PM

Their actual group is insignificant. About 5 people who are laden with major problems. You can't imagine the hell his poor wife lives in. He couldn't care less about her needs. She is my hero. I am totally serious about avoiding them. It is unfortunate they have a web site that others will get sucked into studying because that is the only way any Christian with any amount of discernment will bother with their stuff. One meeting with them and anyone would know why.

He was not in EN. He was in MCM and MSI. He left before the church closed. I am not scared of them. I fear only for the weak they might prey upon. Their stuff is so shallow and error filled that anyone with an ounce of scriptural knowledge could destroy their doctrine and theology so in that sense there is little to "fear". They just attack and hurt ALL people who disagree with their stuff. I attempted to discuss some stuff but was forced out of the study within 2 days and am now treated as in infidel because I was married and divorced before I was saved, and am now nothing but an adulterer and my children are bastards. Does that methodology remind anyone of anyone? I suppose some , hopefully not here, are in hearty agreement with that though and I must live with that belief system for the rest of my life.

I couldn't care less if people judge me that way anymore because I guess I'm stuck with my beautiful and lovely wife for the rest of my life, right or wrong. I'd be accepted back in if I divorced my wife though. How tempting.

Thats just the tip of the iceberg. All that aside, the ex-member of the church is one of the kindest men I've ever known and I am just absolutely flabbergasted that something like this could happen to a person like him. I'll always love him as my good friend and I hope to have an eternity to forget about that stuff with him. Not looking too good for this life though.

jesusisawesome

12-15-2006, 01:50 AM

Xman, I've just read through your posts, and WOW . . . thank your for your listening heart.

From what I see of your heart so far, your "beautiful and lovely wife" is blessed to have you. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

matt_hatter

12-15-2006, 04:29 AM

Just curious xman, I looked over the site and I could not find any names, just "two christians". How much credibility can they have? Care to identify them? I am wondering if they are folks I knew from the old days. Some weird stuff for sure.

xman3

12-15-2006, 06:48 AM

They have no credibility or influence outside of their own minds. I'm not merely exagerrateing for effect either. Almost everyone, including many ex-EN/MSI/MCM people quickly recognize the problems upon meeting them. I suppose they may well be christians. I can't go so far as to say they are not, but the hypocrisy and mean spirited (as good as I can put it) approach makes those of us who know them well wonder.

Note that this indictment is coming from someone who DOES NOT think EN is a cult at all (me). I've said enough now that anyone who knows me knows who xman is, and believe me so do they. The 2 christians had no affilliation at any time with any part of this lineage except when my friend became the 3rd part of the triumvirate. It would be total coincidence if you knew them.

They operate under extreme paranoia and I could curl your hair with some of the practices, outside of the theology. I won't identify them. Remember, this was my best friend and I love him and his family and have very mixed feelings on whether I've said too much, despite my hatred for their stuff and how they've treated my family. There is a better hope for me that he will get out before the "2 christians" ever change their ways. They are in full agreement at this point though, in thought, theology, but worst of all actions.

I'm the blessed one as my wife is far better than I ever deserved, but thank God she loves me despite me http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

xman

robert_unknown

12-15-2006, 09:05 AM

thats also a good point xman: the families. often we forget how they suffer.

i mean - i can give my family as an example - my lives dream was to build churches in a certain region in europe. i told my wife even before we got married, and this good and pure soul agreed to leave her family and home (far away from me) to help me fulfill my dream.

she and i got messed up so badly by what we experienced in ministry, that we had to take medication for many years, after engaging burn-out, nervous breakdown and suicidal tendencies. even my first child, who was born in this difficult time was affected all too much by it.

i am not blaming EN for ALL the difficulties that we encountered, but i do hold them responsable for NOT taking responsability as a "spiritual family". there have been expectations by us. but this expectations have been produced by these guys and their promises. when we REALLY needed family and their help, no one knew us anymore. they have ignored us for several years, and we had to dig us out of the sh*t by ourselves...

however - the good thing was, that all of this helped me to understand that EN is a joke, that its "apostles" are false apostles and no fathers and that this "spiritual family" is a dysfunctional and harming environement, but not a living and loving church.

back to my point: my wife is the real hero in all of this. that she can laugh again, and that she did stay with me all this years, is the thing, that impresses me most.

the "Mister wannabe CEO´s" who abuse their flock for their livestyle dont impress me anymore.

its often/ mostly the "little people" who no one ever might recognize, who are Gods real heros!

matt_hatter

12-15-2006, 01:52 PM

Seems like a lot of us have had our wives bail our butts out over the years.

That particular web site has showed up here before, xman, and I found it rather disturbing then. I still have problems reading stuff like that, and I guess that is why I enjoy the humor stuff and the message of Grace so much. Have I gone too much the other way? I hope so.

xman3

12-15-2006, 02:09 PM

I had to carefully consider whether to give so much info about myself here, as I sometimes wonder whether it will come back to haunt me. I decided I don't care since I'm only giving my own thoughts and such anyway. I don't believe too much in coincidences and the fact that someone brought up those other fellows might be just what was supposed to happen here.

They know me well, and I would absolutely love it if they were to see this and post. You will then see a different side of the xman, believe me. Unlike MSI where I realized that although I have complete knowledge of my particular church and all of its doings, we were perhaps, unique in many aspects and not really the best true representation of all that EN believes.

In their case, however, I have factual insight and knowledge of how they apply their twisted ideas and the effect it has had and is having on a variety of people.

Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun, and despite their notion that they have come up with some unique views and such, its is merely regurgitated stuff that I've found repeated in many places. I do want to say this to sas 1963 - Although I urge to you to avoid anything to do with their group and beliefs and actions, I don't feel that way about my friend personally.

He's actually a great guy and a good friend to many, and keeping in touch on a personal basis doesn't have to revolve around this part of his life. He's totally absorbed in this, and its probably difficult for him to relate to people much outside of it right now, but its probably ok to just let that part go in one ear and out the other. Be wise and aware of the potential pitfalls involved though.

One ironic side of the story is that he was my best man in my marriage and a friend for over 15 years. Our children were best friends and our wives also are great friends. This aspect lost is the part that upsets me still. My suffering I can deal with, but the families suffering, both mine and much more so his is hard to swallow . The only thing that they claim as objectionable is what I mentioned. There is no other reason for his actions towards me or my family.

It takes a little work to piece together the flaws in their application of ideas which cover a large variety of issues. They've confused themselves and contradicted their own doctrines multiple times. If their group had any significance at all, I would label it as a cult, but its really just 2 brothers personal ideas unknowingly rooted their own lifes failures. If it weren't for the website they would be almost harmless to the real world outside of the few people the actually have opportunity to harm. The weak, and the families that were duped and inescapably attatched through the very fact they're in the family.

Because I respect his wife, I refrain from revealing many specifics.

Those 2, I wouldn't give the time of day to and could actually care less what they think. I'd wade through anything for my friend though as it would be worth it to me.

I'm mildly surprised they don't proudly reaveal their identities on their site in view of their high opinion of themselves. I would have no problem exposing their actions were the challenge to come forth. It would simply come ont thing at a time as I like to fully discuss every thing before jumping to multiple subjects. I almost hate to give them more press than they deserve though.

xman3

12-15-2006, 02:22 PM

If I go back and examine the last years of my life, I'm almost amazed my wife put up with me this long. Having made it through so many tough happenings including the dissolution of MCM, the demise of our MSI church, and the divorce of some of our best christian friends, in addition to some of the dumb choices I've made, it just seems that it can't get much worse than that and yet we are so much better now than ever before.

I still get excited every day when I see her or talk to her no matter what mood or situation we're in. We're so full of hope for our future its kind of odd because we have no concrete direction to go. Faith tells us the future is bright though, and the pieces are slowly falling into place.

jesusisawesome

12-15-2006, 04:17 PM

Robert, thank you for all that you add to this board. I am thankful to have had the privilege of meeting you here in this place.

I believe God is going to vindicate you and your family, and like Joseph turn your sufferings into triumph. He is so good at doing that!

Isaiah 49:4 But I said, "I have toiled in vain, I have spent my strength for nothing and vanity; Yet surely the justice due to me is with the LORD, and my reward with my God."

This is my prayer for you and your family, that His justice and reward will be with you for all of your labor of love in His name.

None of your labor for Him has been in vain.

xman3

12-15-2006, 04:35 PM

jesusisawesome

That was post 666. What can it mean? Sorry for thathttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

lablady2

12-15-2006, 04:44 PM

x: most likely means that it was the post right after number 665.

robert_unknown

12-15-2006, 05:36 PM

thank you JIA.

but its me who feels privileged to know you and others from this board. ou people helped me tremendously to come over much pain, confusion and anger. Thank You for your prayers and thoughts!

You guys are really very precious!

matt_hatter

12-15-2006, 05:51 PM

Robert, you have been a blessing to this forum, brother. Merry Christmas and a blessed New Year.

xman3

12-15-2006, 05:52 PM

or before 667.

I don't know why I noticed that anyway, but I guess I needed some twisted humor with what I am dealing with at this time. I am going to have to "vent" here later as a bad situation is occuring very appropriate for this site. 4 days ago I wouldn't have had a place to do so.

coppertree

12-15-2006, 05:59 PM

Hi All
Robert- you came here just at the right time to help us, and I am so glad that we help could you. We can praise the Lord for that, indeed}

lablady2

12-15-2006, 06:06 PM

Yes, it is a good place to vent, decompress and heal, something that's needed following traumatic, life-changing events.

I have found your openness to hear and your willingness to change touching. Your words about "moving on" have gently prodded me to re-examine some things in my life - maybe because the timing was right - and I am grateful.

xman3

12-15-2006, 06:13 PM

robert

A belated thanks for your comments and response. You seem to be a real blessing for people here, though I am unfamiliar with your posts so far. I got caught up in my own post there and it slipped by as I'm somewhat overwhelmed by the amount of stuff here right now.

This is a fast moving place I'll say that. Almost like having a face to face conversation some times. I'm cooling off over some news I received within the hour. Bad stuff. I must watch myself as I am uncharacteristicly angered right now.

coppertree

12-15-2006, 06:18 PM

Hi X man,

I enjoyed your pun!! I almost could hear, 'God has redeemed post # 666, to His use', He,he. We had jokes that we used to say thread here somewhere on this site. X-man you are a blessing , also. I am so glad that you stayed, and joined in . My , you may like the bunny trials here also.}

jesusisawesome

12-16-2006, 05:53 AM

Xman: I guess I needed some twisted humor

JIA: Haha Xman, You've come to the right place, LOL . . . http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif you fit right in here! Back in the main section of "Religious Cults and Sects" there's a place called the Cuckoo's Nest. You will be welcomed there with open arms, if you care to check it out. Great bunch of people that like to laugh and enjoy each other.

jesusisawesome

12-16-2006, 06:03 AM

Xman: robert A belated thanks for your comments and response. You seem to be a real blessing for people here.

JIA: That he is!

Xman: That was post 666. What can it mean?

JIA: Dog . . . did you have to remind me Xman? . . . I'm never going to catch up with Hatter now . . . http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

Robert: but its me who feels privileged to know you and others from this board.

JIA: Robert there's a bunch of people here that I hope I get to meet someday in person this side of heaven!

xman3

12-16-2006, 09:36 AM

Well, I was able to deal with the situation here so I won't have to vent after all. God is good!

I apologise ahead of time for this post if I transgress the rules. I have a dilemna concerning my "friend" and ther situation. I really do wonder if it would be beneficial to list the site and begin to expose some of the beliefs and more importantly actions of the "2 Christians".

Forgive me for a moment, but I want to goad them into a response if possible because they are so paranoid and fearful that they go out of their way to hide the truth. I guarantee they monitor mentions of themselves because that's the nature of the egotistical beast. They are 2 punks who think they can push around and prey on the weak and there aren't many weaklings here. I can't commit to discrediting many men or ministries, but based on what I know for a fact I have no problem doing so with them.

It may not appear so, but I am choosing my words very carefully and with a purpose. I am convinced that I was brought here partly for this purpose. Who would've thunk it.

I have a question. How would I properly go about any endeavor to test the waters on this matter. They themselves are not in any way affiliated with EN, so this is probably not the place. I've said enough about it in this unrelated discussion, but I shall seriously consider taking further action. Factnet seems to be just the place to expose some things, but I shall diligently get the facts and actions either documented or relate them first hand. It's touchy only because I'd like to protect my friends family for now. Hypocrisy and error are pretty easy to document though, because they have so kindly provided most of the evidence on their very own site. I don't understand legal issues and such in referring to their stuff either. Any help would be appreciated. Their influence is so limited that only those they physically encounter are hurt, but they are very abused. Factnet is probably too large and credible to devote time on their small scale lives, but what do I know.

It is time to allow them to experience "being cut off with the sword of Christ". Chew on that boys http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif And you think I don't know you. Heh, Heh, Heh.

xman3

ps- I am sorry if this all seems so out of character. If only you knew them and their treatment of dissent no matter who it is, family or not, friend or foe, you would understand I am as passionately disgusted and angered at them as most are about MCM. Of course if their website should fail they are as insignificant as a grain of sand in their embarrassingly small club. Nothing deep repentance and a change of heart can't cure though.

xman3

12-16-2006, 09:50 AM

I might add that they have a history of doing just what I've see mentioned on other posts. That is, coming in under the guise of someone else and pretending to be who they are not. I'd be embarrased to admit I was them if it was me though also. I would not trust any link to their site, not knowing the secuirity involved around here.

No offense sas 1963, but I am as skeptical of anyone who posts asking about them as 1984 is about posters from EN. If you are who you say you are, just go on with your life without them for now. That's my advice.

If they post and engage me, I will put my full name on my post so there will be no question that its me and not the others here behind it. Unlike them, I'm not ashamed about my views of their stuff and actions. 99% of the people here wouldn't know me anyway since I was never in leadership outside a low level local area.

xman3

xman3

12-16-2006, 11:48 AM

As I study factnets legal stuff and other sections, I can see that these things aren't as cut and dry as I might imagine. I came here to defend EN, and found that this is not the place to do so, at least for me. In no way do I believe it is undefendable in many aspects, but the experiences of the people here override my inclination to cheapen them by defending abuse to the abused.

That's not to say all were abused. My experiences were minor, and I had my fights, but don't class them as abuse. I suppose my take on most matters will be softer than some, occasionaly harder. I sometimes wonder how well received I will be when I do post a different perspective, but at least in this section I will remain quite circumspect.

There is a whole 'nother world of factnet in other sections, however, where groups defenders and antagonists are not so well informed and factual or even very nice in their conversations. Who wants nice anyway...

Just because I would like to pummel someone both literally and figuratively doesn't, I suppose, grant me that right unequivicably. Some places allow me to call them punks. Other places don't allow it. Maybe I'll get censored. I just hate to see my family (real and spritual) abused, and this is a place to fight back to an extent when there are sometimes few other avenues to do so.

There aren't that many sections in this site I would post in probably because I either don't know enough (or care) about the groups or I absolutely don't believe they are error filled or abusive. This is like my home base, disagreements and all and where my heart for discussion lies because of my past and fairly recent history.

Its pretty obvious I'm not a diehard anti-EN person, but I ain't no dummy either. I am a die-hard lover of people though, and the people are what it's about for me. There are many wiser people than me here, and perhaps, a few who are not always so wise, including myself.

Its difficult for me to walk the fine line between acting and speaking as Jesus would, and letting my humanity take over, particularly when I am angered. Sometimes I see myself as Jesus clearing the temple, and other times i see myself as a raving mad man. Jeckle and Hyde personified.

How strange and coincidental that I come here for one reason, and remain for another (others). My pattern is many posts initially, and then on to other things, but as I was warned, this place is strangely addictive.

This ugly group of individuals I would like to expose doesn't have the influence (and never will) of an EN so maybe its just a personal crusade for the sake of my many friends who they are beating down. I would appreciate any comments and advise in how I should approach this, and actually I am asking for that from the people in this section.

I don't want to do something I will regret later. It won't be because I'm wrong in my assessment, but because I chose the wrong path in dealing with it. The can of worms has been opened, so I'm digging in, but this is a bit heavier than I intended. All comments are welcome and appreciated, and I'll take in all that is said. Thank you all.

xman

wildwood_

12-16-2006, 12:55 PM

xman3 Hi Again, Ready for a long read? Just saw your post #55,lemme pray more & sleep & I'll be back LOL shorter though... Part 1 of 4

This is to you X...somethings that have been on my heart about Butch but I'm not sure exactly when I'd have "voiced" them...timing..., but in a way it may explain a little bit to some of those on the board...so it's LONG... A Record...but I still think Dovey's ahead with the Rapture posts...LOL

Definitely Thankful that you've successfully survived those first few critical days and have not fled from the board muttering oddly worded comments re: strange animals, and woodland creatures who inhabit this particular message board! I saw an old Errol Flynn Captain Blood or Robin Hood (Same Difference) Movie and he was bemoaning the various cuddly cutthroats that he'd fallen in with LOL seems he felt that he'd fallen in among disreputable Companions with good Hearts!

Your restraint on not venting whatever upset you today is remarkable (perhaps it has passed now while I've been typing….nope…just looked…YUP..looked again.55.later....does anyone here other than me remember a percolating coffee pot????); however, know that if the strain become too great the xman must "blow" so be it. We will be prepared, having now either witnessed these situations from time to time or been the "venter"...

We stand Ready to pray when you need the support and ALREADY stand silent and praying even though you've not indicated a need yet (why wait?)

Here's my email: MSGUSA0601@yahoo.com All email welcome (except the strange jonmosley who was not polite). xman3, if you are not too worried about my "secret" identity...LOL Butch knows who I am and we almost exchanged a couple of emails at the beginning of my journey here...alas it did not continue....I wish it had. My impression was that contact would not or maybe could not (sigh) continue from him while I was posting on this site...even though my posts are quite different from anyone but me (oh, we all say that don't we though..LOL) I did send Butch an email stating that I saw the pain here and it was something that I did believe he would need to address; however, I did not need to receive or to know or to learn anything from him about what he had done, said, or believed in the past...that was his story. What I would most hope to know is that his heart Loves the Lord Jesus NOW TODAY and that He serves Jesus as His Lord, Redeemed by the Mercy, Grace & Overwhelming Love of God. Other than that...I'd be willing to stand right with him while he addressed those folks whose hearts had been wounded by him; however it happened...fix it…help heal….the reasons to me where none of my business. I also emailed him that as he should remember from my youth...I always kept my own Counsel and I still do. I also believe ultimately ALL Truths (unless Conspiracies of Grace...a story in the Ragamuffin Gospel) will always come out into the Light and the sooner the better for all concerned.

But sometimes (as an adult...there is timing that can and should be waited upon). I did let one person here on the board know that I had hoped to talk with Butch...before I started posting on a regular basis...because I did not want to come in under any "secrets". LOL. In a way, I did ask to be a bit accountable...I let "Tikie" know and he's been solid and straight forward with me; and that's been a blessing because I know that my Sweet Brother Butch is not the personality that they encountered...sigh...and Butch, well...He did and probably still does have a bit of stubbornness to him...(so do I)

wildwood_

12-16-2006, 12:57 PM

Part 2 of 4

(God Bless You Butch if you see this somehow.)But, my name was removed from their mailing list and I've received no reply to any emails since the early steps of discovery onto the board. If Butch contacted me and asked me for the moment not to mention that with anyone...I would respect that request until he chose in due time to reveal himself.

That's not a statement that I could have made a couple of months ago because the folks here did not KNOW MY HEART...and although I think it still would probably take a little bit to adjust to the thought... They know I'd not betray a single tear of theirs to be hurt again by anyone from MCM or EN or Anyone...not even a long-lost much loved Brother from 30 years of praying...those tears are too precious and it is time for them to be "Redeemed". Did you ever hear the song "Come to the Water" Butch use to sing it and play it on his 12-string <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Chorus
And Jesus said,
"Come to the water, stand by my side
I know you are thirsty, you won't be denied
I felt every tear drop, when in darkness you cried
And I strove to remind you,
It's for those tears I died"
Your goodness so great, I can't understand it
And dear Lord I know now that all this was planned
I know You're here now and always will be
Your love loosened my chains, and in You I'm free
But Jesus why me?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I will tell you this, Brother Butch was not a just a casual acquaintance of my heart but a beloved Friend and Brother in Jesus particularly in ’76, 77 parts of 78. I'd say that at one time he knew my thoughts unto my Soul, we studied the Scriptures together often, prayed often, I typed papers for him a few times, cooked lots for friends gathered at the BSU and I knew some of his hearts hopes for his future and one or two of the girls he dated before he didn't "date" LOL. He knew me as a girl, a Sister who had an unfortunate habit of at times speaking Truth without the wisdom to handle its sharper edges...and that did cut us both a time or too. But he always knew I spoke Truth. Neither of us were where we thought we were going to be...LOL but for a time many of us in that community of Believers were pleased with being exactly who we were and where we were and when were just serving Jesus and loving as Jesus would have us Love....http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif No Rules. No Expectations even of each other...Just Love and an openness to accept each Day as a New One the Lord hath made....WOW!! Hardly sounds at all like the EN Church of Today...which seems to have perfected a formula for every good deed. In fact, it was that type of formula attitude that recently sent me to my knees for some more extended prayers for Butch....just two days before your post "appeared".

My husband's Military, in fact the news of his deployment to Kuwait for the upcoming Iraq Conflict was what prompted me to “find” Butch and another friend from years ago. The two best PRAYERS that I knew….and so I did, and Butch & his wife prayed for my husband during that entire year of deployment. There’s a probably second deployment coming up very very soon to Afghanistan this time and I’d like to have Butch and Pat praying again…I hope it will be so.

wildwood_

12-16-2006, 01:00 PM

Part 3 of 4
I do worry that having an individual "Wildwood" who posts on “FactNet” "Hey I'm an old friend" has brought a level of attention to him & family that has been difficult for them…not from the folks here but from his actual real life friends now sigh. I just don’t know. We are moving soon so I did another “Google” search a few days ago to see if there was still an address for them listed near the base where we might be…never actually checked because I saw something else that distracted me. “Leo” had been a guest speaker for several nights at a City Blessing Church in LA (I don’t know if that’s EN or something other Group…you see I know absolutely NOTHING about all the alphabet letters involvedhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif. The Pastor (Paul Tan) had a front page message on the bulletin which included this paragraph <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

A loser is a person who has an abundance of opportunities to learn, who has successful role models everywhere, But chooses not to try. There is a big difference between growing old in the Lord and growing up in Him. The first one is automatic and does not require any effort at all, it is just getting older. But the second is never automatic or easy. If you want to go to the next level, it will take a personal discipline, having a winning attitude, and a desire to learn more from the Lord. "Truth is like soap. It's only good when it's applied" (Ed Cole).
A winner will say: "Yes, I can. I will make the time. Let's give it a try. I'll be glad to help and I will do my best." A loser has a different attitude and will say: "I cannot, I don't have the time. It won't work. It's not my job, and I don't do these things." "So be careful how you act; these are difficult days. Don't be fools; be wise: make the most of every opportunity you have for doing good. Don't act thoughtlessly, but try to find out and do whatever the Lord wants you to" (Eph.5:15-17, TLB.) You can tell you are on the road to success - it's uphill all the way.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Well, I stared at those words for a minute or two and then I must confess that I YELLED at Butch..."Where's JESUS? WHERE did you put Jesus? You know better than to be around that kind of heavy stone burden preaching. What are you thinking standing beside a minister who just said, basically that serving the Lord Jesus Christ was an uphill battle all the way & if you didn't get your shoulder pushing the rock up the hill RIGHT NOW that you were a LOSER because these are difficult days and the Church needs wise people who know how to work soberly, be disciplined and get that darn Rock up that hill for the Lord NOW! What do you want them to do...SEAL HIM BACK UP in the Tomb??? He's OUT. Resurrected! Risen! He's ALIVE!!! Maybe I took it wrong but this was my reaction: ick ick ick NO NO NO NO Serving the Joy is NEVER a Burden...It is Our Joy...As Natural and Over Flowing within Us as Water pours over Niagara Falls...The Joy of the Lord is OUR Strength. Always

I was becoming a bit miffed and I started praying and typing a couple of emails...none to Butch but I thought about it. Because I know His Heart must REMEMBER THE WONDER OF THE JOY OF THE LOVE OF THE RISEN CHRIST !!! I know that Butch was just visiting that Church, but...with him as the former Dean..VLI etc.I assume there's a connection to the Pastor of some sort. And to see a verse from Ephesians somehow used as supporting a heavy burden…be a good salesman for the Lord walk...wow, that's a stretch, Ephesians is the Power of the Love of the Grace of the Mercy of the Lord...FOR US through Jesus--You have to work hard to get a "heavy" load from it...You almost have to be looking for one.

wildwood_

12-16-2006, 01:02 PM

Part 4 of 4

I know Butch has read Ephesians, especially this section: 3:14-21<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

When I think of all this, I fall to my knees and pray to the Father15 the Creator of everything in heaven and on earth I pray that from his glorious, unlimited resources he will empower you with inner strength through his Spirit. Then Christ will make his home in your hearts as you trust in him. Your roots will grow down into God’s love and keep you strong. And may you have the power to understand, as all God’s people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is. May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.
Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think. Glory to him in the church and in Christ Jesus through all generations forever and ever! Amen<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
One by One…God the Father knows the number of the hairs on OUR heads. He loves us enough to have been with us one night or every night and COUNTS….Wow. Now does that sound like it is an uphill battle with a terrible burden trying to pull you back down? Sure we tumble, fall,roll down mountains, get lost in wilderness or stuck out on ledges or drowning or a 10,000 other things…and Jesus Still Comes LOOKING and Picks Up Silly Lambs and totes Us Safely On Back to Daddy. And it is time I hope for Butch to be “fetched”. (No disrespect intended Brother Butch if you peek at this board but I have spent a lot of time praying for you and lemme tell ya…I really do have some other issues to deal with LOL I could use your Real Good Prayers)

Thanks’ xman3….
I wrote a short story sorry….hope you don’t mind and hope in some way it helps you in what you are learning or in the processes of “becoming” on this board….

I think it’s going to be much fun! Here's a nonsense question:
Do you happen to like Lynyrd Skynyrd?

There's a slight PS to this...when I came to the board...I was still confused and still am a bit about the group that I was involved with that was and was not MCM and my own unpleasant "Leader" moments with a Billy. As I recall now...we never actually once had a direct conversation with each other...all my information was what I was "told" he said to "tell" me. I suppose all his info re: me was from the same "sources". Maybe I enjoyed holding onto my "distaste" for Billy. The bittersweet taste of being RIGHT ! Hmmm, except that's holding onto something and holding onto anything...even small is not holding onto Jesus as Completely as He'd Like... It felt nice to let the little critter fly away a few weeks ago...and then rather funny when I heard my sister mention the name in reference to an unfortunate statement re: my crazy cult people & why Billy prayed for a resurrection & his reason it didn't occur being due to the good man's sin (NO). Families hurt by just being near. Sigh. Somehow it's related but I don't know how. It was a shock to learn... gee, thats still bugging her..."let the little gnat go"...then you won't hear it buzzing around your ears... (still the urge to take a fly swatter...I understand it. Right. I'm putting it down. Back to just opening the hand and letting it fly away quietly...LOL it is still difficult.

xman3...I hope you have good eyes...
and SAS1963 Glad you made it back around...stay away from those folks....far far far AWAY...

OH...Anyone with Questions about anything I said I left my email...as said just a tad busy right now.... ALL PRAYERS MUCH Welcomed and NEEDED. Blessings and Joy to ALL. "Wildy"

sas1963

12-16-2006, 02:47 PM

Wildwood, thanks so much. I am pretty scared to deal with them.

Back home now and going to be having apple pie with the family.

xman - you are my hero. Yes, I learned the hard way to keep my identity hidden on discussion boards. In part by watching what these guys did to others. A young single woman cannot be too careful. Also, my friend, who was involved with them was paranoid about these guys. (I cannot mention any names here cause as you say they seem to monitor stuff)

I am going to take Wildwood's advice and stay far away from them. I will let it drop - even though I would love to see their web site challenged. The web presence gives them a feel of being large and powerful. Thank you xman for showing me just how small they were.

Now that I know the MSI/EN connection is tenious at best - I guess this wasn't even the thread to ask under. That said I feel I have found a neat community and will keep listening to you as I do know EN people.

I will really really pray for your friend xman. I know how painful it can be to have someone caught in this. I can tell from your love for him that he is a good man who is temporarily blinded. Though we may never meet know I will pray for him.

Now back to my home, family and the good stuff! I will keep listening to you guys - thanks for being you - luv - sas

wisedove

12-16-2006, 03:05 PM

wow.

matt_hatter

12-16-2006, 03:07 PM

Sassy, have a wonderful Christmas with your family!
These two lightweights seem to be people to ignore. Their website is so tedious that no one has time to read all that crap. Two delusional religious nuts to be avoided.

In reading your thoughts about them xman, you can get some idea how the folks in here who were involve deeply in the leadership can feel the way they do about MCM/EN. Many of us have left, not bitter, angry etc (the simplistic "get over it" response we get at times) but educated to wolves...and the urge in us is sometimes just to warn others to think about what they are involved in.

Enjoying His grace, knowing that He loves us without having to "put on a good face", and with zits, warts and all.

wisedove

12-16-2006, 03:52 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

How strange and coincidental that I come here for one reason, and remain for another (others).<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Once again, wow. Wildy- I'll get to your post (S) in a bit. Awesome, btw. I think you topped mine in length, though. hehe

xman3,
The above statement you made (and I will limit my response to this part of your very long, well thought out post, only because I don't feel I am the right person to address your concerns with the other group you are concerned with) but the comment you made above is something I think about often when I come back to these threads.

For all who has already read my story over and over on other threads, I don't have the energy to post links to them, so cover your eyes or ears and skip over this if you don't wish to read about my experience again...perhaps I might be able to share a tid bit of information that I had not before.

First of all, I have had a hard time swallowing the whole "cult" thing, and truly never wanted to classify my former (recently) church as one, even though many times during different services, when I heard things like "covenant relationship with other leaders in EN, and wearing a ring to symbolize this" (from Pastor Ray, who visited my church in louisiana) and other things like "covering, and accountability to people" I thought "that's cultish". But, I knew God called me there.

So I prayed.

and i stayed.

And prayed.

And stayed.

What led me to factnet in the first place was a google search of Every Nation Ministries, and this was done back in May of 2005, when I was told that I stepped out of their "covering" by attending a church outside of EN with 'sheep' from within our EN church. I got disgusted and very serious about research at that point. So, I found countless articles via the web about the "covering doctrine", and my google search of EN led me here. My heart sank. I was able to see that other churches involved with this ministry were the same across the board, that people across the WORLD were going through and seeing/sensing some of the very same things I had sensed in my heart and in my spirit for almost 5 years after our very new church joined EN.

What this site originally did for me was confirm some things. I will say that I have not agreed with all that has been posted here. I have been quite vocal at times about my disagreements (which are just that...) other times, like yourself, xman, I have chosen my words very wisely (prayerfully) and bit my tongue on several occassions. (more than several, because my desire is to be led by the Holy Spirit, and He gives me a green light sometimes and a caution light sometimes, and a flat out red light at other times, but let me get back to my thougts. (sorry, i left the computer to go cook breakfast for my two hungry children and one of their friends, right in the middle of this post, so i need to recollect my thoughts.)

wisedove

12-16-2006, 03:53 PM

I stuck around in 2005 for a bit, until I felt the Lord saying that was enough (of factnet, i mean.) I still stayed in my church, which I love to this day btw. Love a lot about it. I love my pastor and his family, (he was my pastor over 6 years, and it is still fresh to me that he is not literally my pastor any more, but I still call him that.) O.k. After stumbling across this site 1 1/2 years ago, I knew I would be leaving the church eventually, but also knew very well that God would have to do it, so i stayed, and prayed, and stayed...Then, this past June, it all fell into place in such a way that it was only the Lord's doing and timing. My last service at my EN church was the first week of June. I didn't know it was my last service then, but I did June 11th, when we visited another church and my husband said "this is where we are going to start attending." Bam. Our intent was just to visit, b/c he had not been attending our other church with me. He had missed several months. He visited one with me, and bam, that was it. I couldn't even give a 2 weeks notice (serving in the ministry). Nope, that was it.

So, after having been away from factnet about 9 months, on June 25th, 2 weeks after I felt yanked out of my other church, I decided to take a peek to see what was going on and what was happening. No, I didn't need to catch up on all of the threads and posts that I missed all of those months of being away. Right at the top of the thread was a brand new post saying the La. churches (there were only 2) had left EN. I was shocked and crushed and amazed at this information. WHAT?!!!! You mean, Lord, you answer my prayers, but you pull me out first, before I could find this out? WHAAAAATTT??? I had a breakdown. When you carry a burden, you have the tendancy towards a breakdown, and that's what I had. I cried so hard and for soo long you'd have thought my loved one died. My friend happened to call me just at the moment it was confirmed to me that indeed what I had read was true, but not from anyone from my church, because no one had even known this there at that time. No, it was confirmed from dear friends here who had connections and insight.

So, there you go. After that, I wondered why I still needed to even come here anymore, because truly, it didn't pertain to me or my former church anymore. They were not a part of EN, and I was not a part of them. It is very difficult, but I still feel God's protection from something for whatever reason, and don't feel it's o.k. to go back JUST because they are not EN anymore. He wouldn't have pulled me out if that was the case. I would have just stayed, perhaps had I been allowed to give my 2 weeks notice, and THEN checked the site the very same day, June 25th, perhaps I wouldn't have been obedient with leaving. It hurts. It really does. That will heal, I'm sure.

So, coming here for one reason and staying for another. Let's just say "I'm with you on that one."

matt_hatter

12-16-2006, 04:12 PM

Hey Dovie, thanks, I took in every word. Any disagreements you and I have had in the past have been like a mud fight with a kid sister. Usually laugh like crazy when it is over.

Any word on a deer?? Gonna have to bring that man of yours to Bama.

Time for Santa Matt to do his thing--the one day a year that he will shop.

(Message edited by matt_hatter on December 16, 2006)

wisedove

12-16-2006, 04:17 PM

Hey, Matt. That's good to know! I guess I'm the kid sister...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

I have not heard from him yet. Perhaps that's good news? too busy cleaning the thing? I would LOVE to go to bama with him and shop while he hunts...that seems like a real plan...

mcmstaff78

12-16-2006, 05:05 PM

I agree with SAS regarding young single women keeping their identities hidden on a board like this. When dealing with people with spiritually abusive tendencies, confronting and resisting them can have ramifications in the "real world" and not just putting up with boorish behavior on an internet forum. I've seen what folks can do to harass people who "dare" to stand up to them on forums - being "stalked" virtually and even having employers called, etc. There is no shame or sin in being careful and protecting yourself from folks like this.

xman3

12-16-2006, 05:45 PM

sas1963

You asked under the right thread, believe me. There is no question I was meant to see that post. You they could harm. Me, they can do nothing to me they haven't already done. There's noone they can discredit me to, no lie they can tell, and no story they can make up that could cause near the pain I live with for the sake of those they continue to abuse. I long for discourse, but they in their fear and paranoia quickly dismissed me in an erroneous , impetuous, and pompous act of selfishness.

a poem by xman

They said jump, my friend said how high. They said jump, and I said why? Of course, in the end my take didn't fly. xman 2006

I think that sometimes the Holy Ghost plays this board like a freakin' piano its so coincidental. Some of the keys might be broken and a bit out of tune, but the melody is sweet at times. If my little tirade can save one person from trouble that's not bad at all for me.

wisedove- What a story. A lot of similarities I guess and more coincidences. The pain in leaving these churches reveals to me how deeply so many loved their friends and pastors even in the midst of all that was going on whether known or not. Unfortunately it also shows how the teaching makes it so hard to leave and know that it is our Father's will.

I'm glad you have found what I hope is a good "home". Sadly I have found none yet. It's tough to pour your entire life into something and have it yanked from under you twice. Better hit me in the head with a 2 X 4, because apparently I'm a slow learner. My wife suffers immeasurably over friendships lost and we are basically alone. Almost 25 years of friendships gone.

We have friends that we keep in contact with, but most have moved away and its only occasionaly we see them or talk. Funny how deep the relationships were that were forged though, as speaking with people we haven't seen for years seems like we were part of the same church family yeasterday.

Remember my rebellious little segment of the church. Those were some of my best friends, and you can probably understand that they were not all sent out in the grace of God. A few were though, but it was really an opportunity to get rid of them. Don't recall anyone kicked out though. Not all MCM stuff either.

more, of course to come.

xman3

12-16-2006, 05:58 PM

wildwood

Have to read that several times. There's a lot there. I understand why you always call him Butch. You knew him. I call him Leo. That's who I knew. I love him as much as you love Butch and I have nothing bad to say. I pray you'll find that man if he exists, but I hope you'll find an even wiser and gentler friend when you do.

Your post has more meaning than I can discuss here. I'll leave it at that for now. Thank you.

Lynrd Skynrd? I smashed all my albums years ago, don't you know? heh heh. Secretly kept my CCR though. Don't tell anyone.

coppertree

12-16-2006, 06:40 PM

Hi All
X-man you can start a new category, as this MCM/MSI/EN. I hope this helps.}

mcmstaff78

12-16-2006, 07:12 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

xman3: Lynrd Skynrd? I smashed all my albums years ago, don't you know? heh heh. Secretly kept my CCR though. Don't tell anyone.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>No he didn't! Oh man, you see what a corrupt and unjust religious system that is? I mean, no Freebird? No Sweet Home Alabama? Tell me you at least kept some Allman Brothers?

You must get thyself post haste to the nearest parish of the Primitive Orthodox Missionary House Church of the Latter Day Blues and Southern Rockers (P.O.M.H.C.L.D.B.S.R. for short). You may find a thread regarding this here (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/26544.html). Just keep scrolling down, you'll find many enlightening posts that will help redeem you, musically speaking! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

Dilly, Mattie? We must pray for this poor, lost brother!

(Message edited by mcmstaff78 on December 16, 2006)

xman3

12-16-2006, 07:50 PM

Now that was an interesting read. Redemption is coming.

wisedove

12-16-2006, 09:01 PM

Hi, xman,
thanks for your responses. Don't mind Matt and I's cleaning up after some mud fights in the midst of your thread. That's the beauty of this place.

It's all about choice. Choose this day whom you will serve..God or man? People can idolize their service inside a church, especially one like I just left, where EVERYTHING is done with such excellence, and this attracts people. I am not suggesting doing things WITHOUT excellence, but it's the heart motive that truly only the Lord knows exists behind the reason for "hollywood-ying things up in church."

Yes, there was and is a great deal of love for relationships, especially our pastor. I get fliers in the mail from them still, and it's like "AWWWW-we just love him..." but it is still a "NO" from the Lord not to be there anymore.

It is sad that you have 25 years of friendships gone. This verse comes to my mind from Mark. which states:
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. 19Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. 20And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. 21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. 22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions. 23And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? 27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. 28Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. 29And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s, 30But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. 31But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Emphasis on verses 29-31. God has a plan, and it's bigger than we can understand. I beleive it is important to find another church family if you haven't done so. Pray before hand. Seek the Lord for direction and placement into His body. The steps of the righteous are ordered by the Lord. Believe that, trust that, and trust HIM.

God bless all of you. Happy shopping!

matt_hatter

12-16-2006, 09:13 PM

Dilly, Mattie? We must pray for this poor, lost brother!

I confess and agree with Brother X, "Redemption is COMING!"

There's 'One Way Out' (Allmans) bro. Walk through the door, go down to the local used music store. Your redemption will be complete.

Xman, if you read that thread, you got a good taste of what we call a bunny trail. Nutty, but fun.

maranatha1984

12-16-2006, 09:32 PM

X-Man
Wow just read through and I must tell you I feel like one person started this thread and another X has shown up. I mean no offense just and observation. This truly is the Mother of All Threads!

maranatha1984

12-16-2006, 09:43 PM

Oooh that smell\
Cant ya smell that smell
oo ooh that smell
the smell of death's around you
Lynrd Skynrd [Ronnie Van Zant]

So XMan- your posts are like reading an MCM/MIS biography.

It does remind me reading Wild that Butch, as many were (including according to Dilly Nick) a gentle loving soul. Did MCM/MSI warp thse people or was it latent in them...or was it...SATAN (no kidding).

I think of the "change" that occured in my own pysche and behavior going from "caring for others" to walking over people in the name of the Kingdom.

I trust Matt will not be offended, but I see him as the poster boy of cognititve dissonance- here is/was a man who was a gentle and kind as any I have known (wired this way by God) force into the hard ••• money raising Hootahing MCM pastor. He had the good sense finally to flee once he saw the "reality of MCM"

But others like Butch, Nick, Greg < Rice, Phil maybe they were wired so that MCM EN etc was a drug they could not kick...I have often wondered why I could not "take" what I saw,,, and did not stay in...

Tikie

maranatha1984

12-16-2006, 09:50 PM

Wild quotes:"If you want to go to the next level, "

Tikie: this is stomac turning- there IS not NEXT Level...arrghhhhh...Paul wrote "I the worst of sinners...but thanks be to God for His Lord Jesus Christ...

the idea that we can better ourselves somehow in the sight of God and in our relationship is wrong for we can do nothing...and HE does it all.

Thanks Wild for sharing...

Blessings Tikie

mdillon

12-16-2006, 10:09 PM

according to Dilly Nick

tikie, mannnnnnn, was it something I said? mess with me and I will post that pic of you and mattie in your green izods http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Xman, listen to Southern Rock Bishop MCM78, he has an anointing that doesn't require a tithe.

dilly

matt_hatter

12-16-2006, 10:13 PM

I have often wondered why I could not "take" what I saw

That's easy, Allie said it about you many times. You were a young guy with impeccable character, wired that way? raised that way? No matter, I think both. That is who you were and are. That is why you almost wigged out at the end, it went against every thing good and Godly that was innate and taught by "Mama and them".

As Lucy told Charlie Brown, "That will be 5 cents please." http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

40days40years

12-16-2006, 11:23 PM

Oooh that smell\
Cant ya smell that smell
oo ooh that smell
the smell of death's around you
Lynrd Skynrd [Ronnie Van Zant]

My friend and his brother almost drove their car over a cliff to their deaths and the car was stuck hanging there on the edge and that song was blaring through the speakers. Anyway he said the experience was surreal.

mcmstaff78

12-17-2006, 01:14 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

dilly: Xman, listen to Southern Rock Bishop MCM78, he has an anointing that doesn't require a tithe.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Shhhhhhh, we don't want to ruin our credibility with all those big wig pastors if they find out we're not charging...er...taking up an offering. Come to think of it, an offering isn't a bad idea, just send it in to Mattie's paypal account, he's already all set up!!

(Mattie, I'll take my cut in frogs legs and venison!)

matt_hatter

12-17-2006, 02:47 AM

With John's cookin' our vittles, Miltie's beverages, we could have a heck of a party.

Watch out MCM78, Krems is playing out "Groundhog Day" on another thread with some fresh meat. Run Forrest Run!!!

john_r_jones

12-17-2006, 02:50 AM

I love the "...what's wrong with that?" uh we'd be like you.

Jonesee

robert_unknown

12-17-2006, 09:10 AM

"this is stomac turning- there IS not NEXT Level...arrghhhhh"

LOL - "next level rethorik" reminds me on Doom or another Video-Game

xman3

12-17-2006, 12:08 PM

Its time for more xman musings I see. We've strayed from topic here. What was it again.....hmmmmmm.. Can't find it here. Anyway.

MCM/MSI biography point. You mean, I presume, a biography of the negative. I could, if I thought it was my place, tell a twisted tale of the demise of our MSI church that would be damaging to any effort of mine to support EN. I've lived through some of the worst of MCM and MSI and think I've come through pretty well thanks to the awesome grace of God. Too many haven't come through so good though.

Things I sloughed off as unique to our church or individuals and was able to shed like water off a duck's back, are patterns of sin that have brought great harm to others, and I've somehow been blinded to their pain just because I didn't feel it. Even when people weren't all that harmed, leaders appear to have been reaping unjust benefits and glory that I refused to see or was unaware of.

In time, I may share some things that will explain why I have been able to take in what has been said to me here and so radically ( 1 xman in post 1 and another now) change my perspective. For the time being, I want to see if the changes and repentance that is demanded take place. If I don't see it, I may well feel that I must add more fuel to the fire. Even here, the truth gets buried deep in long dormant threads and postings which sre discovered only through diligent study and research, which many never attempt to pursue.

My story is seemingly an insignificant one, but oh so revealing in the larger picture. For now though, I wait. I hope. I believe. I also weep. I hurt for the people who have been abused. I hurt for the ministers who have been sucked into these practices. I hurt for a ministry that seems to have gone astray, if they ever were on the right path. I hurt for myself because I've had so much stolen from me and know even now that I will be labled by many for even sharing my thoughts to this point. I live with these things alone for the time being. I have no pastor to turn to, no church to support us, no friends to rely on.

In the midst of this, I very surprisingly find myself felling a kinship with the very people I came here to "argue" with. It's absolutely inexplicable to me how I could feel this way having come here with the notion that this site was simply a divisive result of unjustified attacks on a ministry that caused a lot of problems for cry-babies and weaklings who wanted to blame their problems on someone else. That's a little strong, and I'm embarrased to say that, but that's just the way it was.

I've always avoided the EN antagonists and considered complicity with anything like this site as, well, you all know the party line there.

I won't go back to the post and I don't remember who said it so forgive me, but I was told early on that learning and listening will come at a price. I see there is a price and it would have been easier for me to have never registered and gone on with my life in many respects, but I didn't do that and now I am no longer so innocent.

xman3

12-17-2006, 12:09 PM

Man, can I babble or what. Shut up already xman. Nope, not yet. See you have me arguing with myself now. At least I can't lose an argument that way though.

Its an internal struggle to deal with this stuff that came unexpectedly. Years of teaching and thinking that says that it is significant sin to expose pastors, elders, leadership, and ministry failings as occurs here is not easy to reconcile with what I'll call this enlightened perspective. WWJD? How can I know?

Have I been enlightened, or have I been poisoned? I speak as a crazy man here because I really am expressing what almost anyone with this background will have to deal with. Maybe it will help someone else as I articulate my little journey here. Maybe I'm experiencing a little of both. Maybe a lot. I just don't know. Its serious buisness to speak of my brothers and sisters in Christ, and they live on both sides of this reality.

I would have no voice here if I had come in with
guns blazing and I'm glad I didn't. More importantly I would have learned nothing. What I do with all of this is a wnole new ballgame for me. Maybe I'm not what I appear to be, as in writing in a forum I can be who I really am and say what I really think without concerning myself with pleasing anyone but the Lord. Sometimes I regret what I write. Sometimes I wish I wrote more. Some of it is now preserved for all to see and can not be retracted easily. Is that good? Maybe, maybe not.

This isn't the xman blog, but I'm treating it like it is I suppose. I know you all graciously bear with me in my rantings. I am grateful for much of what has happened to me in my time in MCM and MSI. I am also disgusted with what went on at the very same time.

I will close this particular post, though I'll probably come back with more babbling later, with one thought that plagues me. Despite pouring every fiber of my being into building these churches, and believing that I was building the kingdom of God, when they were yanked out from under me with no warning or compassion, I was absolutely and completely abandoned by every single person in those ministries.

I have never had anyone, not one single person, come to me and ask if I was ok. How is my family. Have you found a church. Can we help you. Nothing. I don't exist as far as they are concerned, and that hurts if I allow it. That, my friends, really hurts.

xman

robert_unknown

12-17-2006, 02:18 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

I have never had anyone, not one single person, come to me and ask if I was ok. How is my family. Have you found a church. Can we help you. Nothing. I don't exist as far as they are concerned, and that hurts if I allow it. That, my friends, really hurts.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

dont forget, that God made you human, and not super-human. grieve and pain is part of our beeing. it forms something inside of us - heck - ic dont know what, but i know i went through all of this during the last 3 years several times. always when i discovered, that the way i have imagined EN is, is wrong, a disolution so to say, i was in pain, in anger. i didnt invent my ideas about the nature of EN or how EN should be, by my own.

It was the deep and inner dreams of church life that got attreacted by what people like Paul Daniel, Bonasso, Brooks, Eckleben, and the guys around me told me. They have promised us that EN is a "better place" than others. a "better family" that really cares for everyone. theoreticaly they created the pictuer of a wonderfull place, where i would have loved to be and to serve.

heck - but, when my world broke, and when i needed this family, several years ago, they betrayed me. They slandered, ignored me. such a pain.

but time heals. you come over it. until i recognized that the guys who promised so much lived double standart lives. and that the things i had to experience are not singular, but many people suffer this way.

and at the end you have to realize, that the roots of this "family of churches", which was your life for many years, are filthy and rotten, theologicaly.

Xman, dont hinder the pain in you. it will come up one day, and in my opinion, its better to let it come up. after a while God can deal with it and heal it.

My pain is gone. my anger is gone.

today i feel sorry for my foolishness and my failures during this years, and i will have to apologize to the ones, i abused and to the ones i made suffer.

dust

12-17-2006, 03:20 PM

Xman, Just so you know, they didn't call us, or anyone that has left that we know of. Their "system" is set up like this way; nothing can be examined. People who "leave" are traitors, jezebels and you are with Satan. OR, at best, you are "spiritually and emotionally weak." But, they don't play by God's rules.

They preach walking by the spirit, but They walk as slaves to their mind, will and emotions. They are mind-controlled, and emotionally bound to the system. They use and teach a form of WILL POWER, not spiritual strength.

One time a pastor boasted that he prayed non-stop in tongues for 8 hours because he wanted to see if he could do it. I'm sure (in his mind) he saw himself pleasing the leaders, winning the race, being a good boy. Jesus doesn't want this man-made display of strength which can turn into arrogance. Jesus wants us broken and humble so that all we have is HIM. Paul understood this when he wrote, "when I am weak, then I am strong."

God obviously has not forgotten you. God forgets no one. Jesus said, "I am with you always." I love a God who doesn't expect us to do horse and pony shows for love. Satan uses a measuring stick to beat us up with. How great are your worldly talents? You were made FOR greatness, instead of "you were made BY Greatness.

What you said about being "enlightened" or "poisoned", hopefully, will shed some light on the dynamic of EN and give people a break for their display of loyalty to EN. If they are here and they are posting, they are searching. They might "appear" to be on the other side, but as I've said before, it's not red team/blue team, it's powers and principalities.

Xman, I pray for you as you might experience some post traumatic stress, and I pray you do not measure yourself with the devil's yardstick, but that you feel valued with the immeasurable love of God.

Robert, you are always a gentleman and even in the pain you have shared, you are so graceful. I have hard time seeing you in an abusive role.

robert_unknown

12-17-2006, 03:39 PM

"I have hard time seeing you in an abusive role."

well - thank you dust http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif
but i was also part of the system... i am sure, that there are people from my former church, who are waiting for an apology.

xman3

12-17-2006, 04:48 PM

Actually, I "feel" a sense of relief to an extent. Unlike many here, I did not leave MSI, they left me. I had no choice in the matter, although I did have an important role in the circumstances that led to our church being disbanded and abandoned.

I have a bit of unfinished buisness that I will take care of, but for the first time in over 20 years, I now am absolutely sure that regardless of what direction EN goes I will not be a part. I have still, until this day, always held to the notion that I would eventually be a part of that ministry in some location.

It isn't at all that I have suddenly become convinced that they are a cult and are responsible for any of my troubles past or present, though there are those who may one day have to answer for any number of things, but rather that God has closed that chapter of my life and shown me why. I simply love God and I love people and God has a new and better plan FOR ME and a new place to walk that out.

There's a small element of wanting to kick myself for not being willing or able to recognize some of even my own treatment as the very opposite of the covenant love and relationship that was espoused, but for the most part, my intentions and motives have always been pure before the Lord. My experience is my own, and it may or not mirror that of others, but I will relate to others through the eyes of my insight and experience in this place and beyond.

I have a bit of indignation over some things, particularly near the end, and I will ponder how to direct it. I hope it is a righteouss indignation and that I will focus it in a righteous fashion, but for those who want to be part of EN for the wrong reasons or through a false pressure through poor theology or self serving motivation, I may or not be able to stand idly by. The mere fact I am so enraged over the treatment of people by this other small group of individuals shows me that even I have my limits of tolerance. When I fear for the lives and sanity of others due to bible abuse and control, its hard for me to be some ooey gooey bucket of love towards the perpetrators.

Soon, my little tale here will slide down the board and fade into internet onlivion, so I have seized my moment here and somehow allowed God to show me what He wanted me to learn about myself and others here and throughout EN. Its not like I now have it all figured out, but I most assuredly have have put some of the finishing touches on some things God has been preparing to show me for years. Some will read it and conclude I am no better than others who have allowed bitterness and anger to turn them against the Lord's men and ministries. Others will , perhaps be inspired to listen and find out what they too can learn, and perhaps even become better for it. Some could care less and are entertained by what goes on here- I know I am.

I don't care all that much really, since I am ultimately judged by no man, and I will stand before God on my own merits, viewed by my Father through the blood of Jesus.

Its not like I'm going anywhere since I like it here and as I've said, I feel a kinship and love for many here, but I still want to thank you all. Your diligence in researching the facts and presenting your own stories has ministered to me in an unexpected fashion, and whether I agree in fact or principal with all that is said or even always the "spirit" of its delivery, is immaterial to the value I have taken from my time here.

I suppose its somewhat on to the next phase for me. I'm moving to the next level. oops. Old habits die hard you know.

xman

lc_20

12-17-2006, 05:05 PM

"I simply love God and I love people"

That's the bottom line. Cheers.

xman3

12-17-2006, 05:21 PM

Well, since I don't have to go to church, what a term, I wish you all well today. I am going golfing on December 17 in Michigan. And they say God doesn't still do miracles. 52 degrees. I could grill some of matts venison steaks today if I had 'em (jealous icon to be inserted). I might tip a beer (or even 2 afterwards though). A toast to freedom, sponsered by xman.

matt_hatter

12-17-2006, 06:00 PM

Soon, my little tale here will slide down the board and fade into internet oblivion,

It's to the bunny trail or the Cuckoo's Nest for ye now matey.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

Got some venison steaks marinating in the fridge for later on. Gonna have an Abita from the land of JRJ as I grill em.

One of our winters in Ann Arbor was one of the mildest on record. Only about 15 in. of snow was recorded. But it was enough to send me back to Bama! We had some nice time up there though, going to Frankenmuth, etc. Mighigan is actually a beautiful state and an outdoorsman's paradise, once you get away from DEEEEtroit. Too much human huntin' with handguns going on there.

wisedove

12-17-2006, 06:58 PM

wisedove

12-17-2006, 07:03 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Some will read it and conclude I am no better than others who have allowed bitterness and anger to turn them against the Lord's men and ministries. Others will , perhaps be inspired to listen and find out what they too can learn, and perhaps even become better for it. Some could care less and are entertained by what goes on here- I know I am.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Profound statement. I am going to say that I have struggled with posting here (convictions personal to myself, but then there's the red,yellow (caution), and green lights that I get from the Lord to post, but I have struggled with thoughts like "is this slander? Have I slandered? Is this gossip? Have I gossiped? Am I bitter?

I feel more SAD than anything. Disappointed, at most. I repent if I have personally slandered or gossiped here.

robert_unknown

12-17-2006, 08:50 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
I have never had anyone, not one single person, come to me and ask if I was ok. How is my family. Have you found a church. Can we help you. Nothing. I don't exist as far as they are concerned, and that hurts if I allow it. That, my friends, really hurts.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Listen, this is how it must be across the board. This is something that baffles me to this day. You can call it what you want, but it is despicable that no one asks how you are, or if you have found another church, and can just say "God Bless You" after leaving this ministry. I was talking about this very thing yesterday to my friend. I told her that "once again, I ran into someone I served under, and NOTHING." Sure, they can offer small talk, but to this day, (it's been 6 months, and my husband and I had both served as leaders in some form or another for 6 years) and I have run into countless pastor's from my church, and all it is is small talk. Not one of them has acknowledged we are not there any more, or asked how we have been since we left, etc. Just small talk.

Well, I'm off to watch my New Orleans Saints hopefully clinch the division championship today and get a "bye" in the playoffs. Who'd a thunk it.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Xman, Dove, the problem is, that they share the idea of either you are called by God to follow the vision of the pastor and EN or not.
They have told me, that I am the pastor, and God has given me the vision. If someone doesnt want to follow it, they are not called by God for this vision. And this they are telling others as well...

its the idea of the leader beeing a kind of "MOses". Its so far away from what Jesus thaught and from what church is all about.

you only realise how evil it is, once you have to suffer from this attitide by yourself...

I see the same thing happening here in Europe. People who have been serving in church for years loose their reputation imideately when they question certain things...

Its time to find a better place.

wisedove

12-17-2006, 09:32 PM

Robert,
Once again,
thanks for opening up and sharing your perspective and firsthand knowledge and experiences here.
Blessings,
Dove

mcmstaff78

12-17-2006, 11:38 PM

Xman3, I've gotta say I have more respect for you than any other poster who's come on this board to defend MCM/MSI/EN. You didn't caricaturize, you didn't sling those "hypocrite" and "mean" labels. You didn't tell folks to just "get over it". What you did is make a statement and then you listened (well, really read, but you know what I mean). That takes a lot of guts. To see the progression in your posts is impressive. The introspection required is immense and it is difficult. Having one's world view changed, even just a little, is disconcerting. But you've been willing to examine a big chunk of your life and share that with folks here. Very, very cool!

It will get harder, emotionally, I promise you. The internal "butt kicking" you do to yourself as it really sinks in. Right now it's still not visceral enough, at least not as much as it's going to get. Sometimes, given 12 years out from my own experience (not with MCM, but with a spiritually abusive WoF church) there are times I still look back, see the impact my choices had on my family and get that "thunk" in my stomach and think "you idiot". Well, God is good and can redeem all things. The thief on the cross is a wonderful example, as is the Prodigal son. Anyway, just wanted to say what a pleasure it's been to interact with you here and see how you've interacted with others. May God's Grace always be with you!

wildwood_

12-18-2006, 07:44 AM

xman3...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif You are a huge Blessing...given the time of year, you don't happen to be wearing a red suit, have a long white beard and a red hat & drive a sleigh...with 8 tiny reindeer??? If so, watch where you park them...hmmm, there are "hunters" on this board....maybe you just work for Santa? Just a quick check back in...and to point out the obvious to you...which you've probably noticed from the folks here now:

We want to know if you are going to be ok....when you feel like talking about it. And we hope that your family heals also and that you do find a safe "home" for your hearts to worship. We want to know if we can help....and as much as possible for a message board (which actually has no "impossibles" because with God All Things ARE Possible Through Christ Jesus Our Lord). We want to help...because you are helping us. You are not a random piece...that your posts "exist" are now a particular piece of whatever it is-- of whatever it is --that is being woven by the Lord...

And although none of us have it figured out yet, it makes a very nice warm quilt on a cold winter night...so I'm not asking Him too many questions and yanking at the covers. Besides if you aren't Santa...we gotta be quiet...so those Angels and Sugar Plum Faries Dance in our heads...and so JohnR & Hatter can go hunting wascally wabbits...or am I confusing the forest critters again...?http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

SAS1963...HUG...I do not do "wary" very well, but I am learning from the wiser eyes on this board. Sigh. Hope you have a wonderful Christmas!

And MCM78...is there a thread on here with the good solid Christian Music....but not taken over by MCM et al and played until it warped the LP and ruined the needles??? I had a young person actually ask me...who was Phil Keaggy??? !!! That's criminal. Of course they knew his daughter's music (I don't....guess that's a minor offense also). Still...I'd like to go to a John Denver Concert, but I'm in no rush for the stadium floor seating even if it is in Heaven.

Dovey...no, really...you win...lol...ok...rambling is a gift and I have it...but I think maybe X has the "gift" as well...come to think of it...seems to be a common "Family" Trait for MOST of Us on this board....from time to time...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

And to ALL...A Merry Christmas...if I do not make it back somewhere on this board before then to say so... I will be and have been praying for all of you... When I go through the thread and read it like tonight...I pray for each poster as I read...I usually start at the bottom...read up praying and then read back down praying....even if I don't post. Just so you all know. I may not know who you are-- But God does & He Loved Us First & Still Loves Us Best of ALL. Nite.

xman3

12-18-2006, 01:59 PM

don't forget God made you human- not superhuman

You mean I'm not one of the x-men?

mcmstaff78

12-18-2006, 02:04 PM

Wildwood, I'm not sure I've seen a thread regarding good "Christian Music". I'll be honest, I've listened to practically no CCM made in the last 15 years or so, and probably longer. I can tell you who I like and can still listen to. Some of my issues are theological, but some are simply the shallow nature of lyrics and thoughts expressed. Anyway, rather than hijack this thread, start one over in General Chat and see what folks recommend. I've got some thoughts, but I'll save those for a specific thread.

robert_unknown

12-18-2006, 02:40 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

don't forget God made you human- not superhuman

You mean I'm not one of the x-men?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

well, what do you think-... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

robert_unknown

12-18-2006, 02:42 PM

... i wanted to say: i respect people who can go through difficult times without much harm. but if you feel, that it hurts, dont push the pain down... just let it come, and God will heal it really... we all often tend to be to hard to us, and to push hurt down... only to recognize, that it will come back sooner or later http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

xman3

12-19-2006, 04:54 PM

Thank you all for your kind words and encouragement. Actually, I'm just peachy over all this. Its been several years since I was part of MSI, and really the only tie was an ambigous plan to attend one in the future. This frees us up to find a church that better suits our family for the long term.

I'm kind of analytical about it really. That lawyer like mindset someone mentioned probably turned the tide for me. I was just enough involved to have a very few things happen near the end that concerned me. After hearing the experiences of those here, though small in numbers alone, seeming to represent quite a few more who wouldn't venture in this lion's den; and seeing the evidence presented here, I concluded my concerns were not necessarily isolated, but unfortunate patterns that I could'nt overlook.

I feel pain a whole lot more for others that didn't come through so well, regardless of where ultimate blame lies. Even my MSI church was completely different than most anything I hear here, so I can believe that with certain changes, individual churches can thrive under good pastoral care. We shall see though.

Truth is, there's more than enough on this website that I disagree with where I can argue and debate to my hearts content if I want. There's also my other little diversion. I think for now just a mention here and there will do. Well, not here anymore. There, wherever that is.

Thank you Robert, and wildwood, and ..... too hard to look 'em up and spell em correctly. I'll resurrect the thread if I ever want to prevail upon all of your good graces for any related things that come up. Thanks for the prayers and good wishes.

Its time I'm banished to the bunny trails and beyond! I guess I'm not an xman after all- I'm Buzz Lightyear.

maranatha1984

12-20-2006, 01:55 AM

MY Friend Robert Writes:It was the deep and inner dreams of church life that got attreacted by what people like Paul Daniel, Bonasso, Brooks, Eckleben, and the guys around me told me. They have promised us that EN is a "better place" than others. a "better family" that really cares for everyone. theoreticaly they created the pictuer of a wonderfull place, where i would have loved to be and to serve.

Tikie; Writes: this says it all my friend Robert. I remember I was talking to Mike Caulk after he pulled his church out and I was still in limbo...and he recommended Animal Farm. I still remember the quote from Napoleon "All animals are equal only some are more equal than others".
As I read Animal Farm I could see in the characters all of the people in MCM that I knew...I heartly recommend this as compulsory reading for Exers and those trying to "get by"...especially those who cannot stomach opening their BibleS. Animal Farm is a tonic...

Tikie

maranatha1984

12-20-2006, 01:56 AM

Dilly:tikie, mannnnnnn, was it something I said? mess with me and I will post that pic of you and mattie in your green izods

Tikie: Yeah LOL we look like Siamese Twins with the Preppy disease!!!!

maranatha1984

12-20-2006, 02:00 AM

Wildhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gifne time a pastor boasted that he prayed non-stop in tongues for 8 hours because he wanted to see if he could do it. I'm sure (in his mind) he saw himself pleasing the leaders, winning the race, being a good boy. Jesus doesn't want this man-made display of strength which can turn into arrogance. Jesus wants us broken and humble so that all we have is HIM. Paul understood this when he wrote, "when I am weak, then I am strong."

Tikie: Repeat in Unision: This guy is a WHACKO!!!!

dust

12-20-2006, 02:20 AM

Tikie, the really bizarre thing is that this guy is NOT whacko......
which makes the whole thing really whacko

jesusisawesome

12-20-2006, 02:55 AM

84: As I read Animal Farm I could see in the characters all of the people in MCM that I knew...I heartly recommend this as compulsory reading for Exers and those trying to "get by"...

JIA: Animal Farm and also 1984 . . . the parallels in both with some of the ways that this ministry operates are uncanny . . .

maranatha1984

12-20-2006, 03:32 AM

Dust:which makes the whole thing really whacko

Tikie; Precismo! Would Rice have been Rice without MCM, would "Butch Leo been Leo without Bob...

maranatha1984

12-20-2006, 03:38 AM

JIA:JIA: Animal Farm and also 1984 . . . the parallels in both with some of the ways that this ministry operates are uncanny . . .

Tikie: I can remember my wife to be "Sissy" saying "Tikie why do you keep talking about this book I read in Highschool (I did not)... MCM and Animal Farm are the only thing that we have never "understood" together...it is funny in our 22 year marriage (is it that long) the only thing we are not absolutely on the same wave length on is MCM...she says about FACT and the Blog (Much like Allie Matt's wife) I don;t get it... but those of us who have been burned as if by fire (credit to Oliver Wendell Holmes) do understand.
JIA DOVE and I both understand. Dove have you been following the posts from SIXTA...

Anyway this may be heretical itself But I learned more from Animal Farm post MCM than I ever did from the Bible.

Blessings to my two sisters in Him.... JIA And DOVE...and may HE who give us strength and GRANCE bless you abundantly...

Tikie

coppertree

12-20-2006, 03:46 AM

Hi All
I would disagree about pre-destinity to Leo, whom know better than Rice..I knew Butch at U K as Wildy did. I saw the transformation, he was trying to please people and God in doing what he thought was good and helpful. At Uk he led about 100 people to the Lord. Not all were in our group. As we all in leadership ,we also did similar things that were wrong; our hands are dirty also. I see his story line was at a similar one to yours when you were in full time. And then you got free. We all were there at one time. God' grace can do much.}

wisedove

12-20-2006, 02:30 PM

Hey, Tiki!
Thanks for the Blessing wishes! I HAVE sorta been following sixto's posts on here. Not so much the past few days. I am trying to finish Christmas shopping! I will try to catch up later today, though.

Blessings to all.
Dove

xman3

12-22-2006, 03:04 AM

After reflecting a few days....

I've really been studying all available sources on the financial stuff and I am astounded. I can't address the changes being made in EN as I'm not privy to them really and the most current information I can get is actually from factnet and related links, and that seems incomplete to me. With my involvement as it was in administration, I can not believe the concerns I had were so much more than I thought.

I was removed in the nick of time really, as I was too involved in this stuff. This is the one area I could kick myself in the head over for many reasons. I can not speak for anyone else, but a conspiracy theorist might go so far as to suggest that our church was shut down solely for financial reasons. Somehow, despite the commitment we demonstrated despite our small size, we became enough of a liability that it was able to override the "covenant" relationship we had with EN.

The deeper I dig, the more astounded I become. I am not happy about what I am seeing here and it certainly sheds another light on my experience. I am quite eager to hear EN's explanation for all of this, but everything seems so sketchy. Am I missing a key thread in here somewhere?

Anyway, merry Christmas to you all.

xman

osakadan

12-22-2006, 03:08 AM

Thing is xman, some conspiracy theories are true. Guess you will never truly know about your churches closure.

Merry Christmas.

ginger1

12-22-2006, 03:04 PM

Shutting down the church can mean two things, since it happened in Hawaii. Phil shut down a church in Hawaii because the Pastor is "disobedient and rebellious" to the EN leadership. Thats Phil Bonasso and Tony Fetchel. The people were send to Sam's church. The new guy in the Apostolic Board.

Second. its Finances. Liability. Money that was supposed to go to Missions or to your church was being diverted to the top EN leadership pockets. They prefer their pockets than sending money to your church.
There are more than 13 people who are making in the low $200,000. And several more are making in the low $100,000 this includes people from Phil Bonasso's church, like the administrator and several pastors. These are not supposed to be in EN's payroll, nor even their wives should be in the payroll. And yet they are. These people income is not even coming from the church. Its from EN payroll.
Then there is the secretary also making $80,000.

People who are making a little over $200,000 , we based it on their mortgages in Nashville.
And those who are making a little over $100,000 , we got it from a leak inside.

Mission money that was actually used for Missions is less than $500,000. AND even with that, according to January Palm Spring meeting, not all the $500,000 even went to mission.

So yes, they shut you down for liability. Their pockets comes first. The less you get, the more they get.

ginger1

12-22-2006, 03:06 PM

And the way Phil Bonasso run VCM, Only 20% actually went to VCM of all the was collected.
So Mission money actually received from WorldWide $2.5 million - $3 million.

The Mission money does not includes tithes from World Wide. Since the World wide tithes all of that went straight to their pockets.

40days40years

12-22-2006, 03:16 PM

Ginger it can't be that bad, where does the money come from for the monster salaries?

maranatha1984

12-22-2006, 04:31 PM

Ginger:Second. its Finances. Liability. Money that was supposed to go to Missions or to your church was being diverted to the top EN leadership pockets. They prefer their pockets than sending money to your church.

Tikie: This is Potentially a violation of the law...that is raising money for one purpose...and then funneling these gigantic money streams into your own pocket. I have NO proof that this happened. 40 this is the point theoretically, and this MAY not have happened: EN raises money for Various causes- mission etc etc. The money is funneled back to those at EN who sit on the board or boards as salaries etc. Ask this- Phil's churches were never MEGA churches- yet he makes $ 600k plus- five times what the head of Campus Crusade makes- how

Follow the Money- sit on differing boards of orgs that are siphoning money from EN and get paid a huge salary for the one you head and smaller salary for sitting on the other boards. Ensure that everyone on your board of your org is a friend and on the boards that you serve on is a friend. Be sure not to disclose any financial statements and stay away from any reputable auditing firm.

Then you too can make $ 600k plus expenses includng anything you want to charge to the charitable org.

I will tell you that is why I say the leaders of EN make Bob Weiner look like a two bit con artist.

Some have said" But Tikie you are an officer of a company what about you? You hypocrit!"
Well, first my salarie and any bennies are disclosed in a 10k filing. Don't like my salary or what you think I contribute- then have me sacked. The shareholders rule and I serve at the discretion of the board and shareholders...everything is wide open as regards compensation in a public company...especially post SArbanes...

xman3

01-14-2007, 12:10 AM

Sorry for dragging this up here, but I am bumping it up because I wanted someone to read it and I am making it a little easier to be located. I am still intrigued though, just from a different perspective.

Good day all.

xman

robert_unknown

01-14-2007, 12:49 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Some have said" But Tikie you are an officer of a company what about you? You hypocrit!" <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

there is NO way that one can justify it biblicaly to compare a corporate environement and corporate salaries that get financed through business with a church office/ charitable office, that gets finances by contributions and offerings!

i always find it irritating when ministers compare these things to justify themselves. my first qestion then is "how much does your secretary and your other employees earn?" - these people often pay them just peanuts if anything at all, because they shall "serve the Lord"!

its incredible - yesterday evening someone told me that bill gates earnes around 600k a year! and then you have ministers who think its morally legitim to earn as much as one of the top business leaders in the world?!

(Message edited by robert_unknown on January 13, 2007)

anti_fascist

01-14-2007, 01:35 AM

Tikie: This is Potentially a violation of the law...that is raising money for one purpose...and then funneling these gigantic money streams into your own pocket. I have NO proof that this happened. 40 this is the point theoretically, and this MAY not have happened: EN raises money for Various causes- mission etc etc.

hi everybody,
some good news: a new law has come onto the South African statute books in 2005, and is prooving a very effective tool for obliging organisations to hand over sensitive financial information, as all organisations who receive moneys and employ people even on a voluntary basis fall under the scope of this radical law.

It is the Procurement of Access to Information Act (PAIA)of June 2000, and all entities have to lodge a manual, explaining the procedure and contact persons, with the South African Human Rights Commission.http://www.sahrc.org.za/sahrc_cms/publish/cat_index_70.shtml

I'm convinced that if EN/His people members want to have answers to their many questions, this is the tool to use, as EN is not going to be forthcoming by themselves.

I've checked today, neither Every Nation, nor any His People's church, nor the Louis Group of Companies have submitted their PAIA manuals to the SAHRC, and are therefore in CONTRAVENTION of the LAW in the RSA.