Leaders Please Repent

[dust]

I cannot get this off of my mind. I feel compelled and I pray it is the Holy Spirit and I believe it is.

Leaders (and I use this term loosely) please repent.
You know in your heart you are covering sin, have walked in sin and have been confronted with sin.

Please repent before it's too late. Before you are disgraced beyond restoration. You now stand condemned for preaching and teaching a false gospel, for loading the burdens of men's desires and masquarading it as God's wishes. This is the gravest of sins. I know my heart aches greatly for just the dollop of this I myself commited, and I feel it is one of my gravest sins, for which I have repented.

There is nothing that can taste better to you than the nutrition and counsel of God, through the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, the ministry of Jesus Christ. What you serve now tastes bitter. You deserve to be in the arms of God, and I grieve for you that you have chosen the camp of the enemy's fire because now it warms you, but it will burn you, completely destroy you.

And I believe God is saying:
I don't blame you, you were given a wrong map and you went in a wrong direction. You had your eyes on me and on the things of me, but you were misdirected. You are so comfortable with this fire of the enemy, and you light other fires with it. But, it will grow to such dangerous proportions and you will not be able to stop it.

I am sending you fresh water to put that fire out and find your way back to the camp I designed for you. It is much less comfortable. The campground has little room for you, so you will share your space and be crowded. But there is still room.

It's not too late. But, there will be a day, when the camp is closed and you can't get in. The time is now to repent with a godly sorrow and be a prodigal son. I will rejoice in your return, but I will make my mercies short if you don't take my grace now as I extend it to you.

I love you as a Father, I see the work you have done, but I give you NO HONOR for with every deed, you crucify. Find your way back home and do it quickly.

[dust]

I had to repent myself, I fell for the "leadership" trap, because my personality (not my spirit) can talk and walk and persuade and glitter. And, the world really likes this, but it doesn't build anything except a man-made ministry of worldy talent.

Worldy talent will not move heaven, or save a marriage, or heal an illness.
Worldy talent will not feed the poor, aid the sick or raise the dead.
Worldly talent will NOT REDEEM. It is dead.

Worldy talent builds walls, tears down faith, and bloats the body.

But, it does not move heaven, does not welcome the Holy Spirit because worldy talent doesn't NEED God. Worldy talent often uses God to display itself.

Faith is free and simple and comes through brokeness.
Worldly talent abhors brokeness.

Worldly talent never brings revival.
Faith brings revival. Faith moves heaven.

A worldy sorrow leads to death.
A godly sorrow leads to repentance and eternal life.

[mdillon]

dustie, write it up, I'll pay the postage:

Every Nation
P.O. Box 1787
Brentwood, TN 37024-1787

I'll also do sandwich boards for cheap. somebody has to get me within the gates, though, I lost my membership card in the moves.

dilly

[lablady2]

md: I have to say, you never fail to impress me. You are fearless.

[mdillon]

fearless? that comes easy when Death knocks labby, you should know that.

dilly

[ulyankee]

dust, this morning the Lord confirmed the same thing on my heart that you posted. He is extending His mercy and grace, and is showing EN leaders such mercy right now though they may not be fully aware of how much by their focus on how much attack they may seem to be under. The Lord confirmed that I need to not get distracted by other things or other activities, but continue to shout the alarm as He has called me to do, to those who have forgotten that Jesus Christ alone is the Head, to remember and come back to Him as the Head. He has delegated His Headship to no man or entity. Jesus Christ alone is the Head of the body of Christ.

Some will repent and some will not. The Lord made this clear to me, but He also made clear it is not up to me or indeed any person to determine or know who will or who will not. I have just been called to shout a warning to those with eyes to see and ears to hear. There is still time to repent and come back to Him. But as you posted, He also made clear to my heart as well, that the time is now and that there will be a day "when the camp is closed and you can't come in."

Do not follow any man or group of men as Christ, no matter how ethical, moral, or Godly looking they may be. Jesus Christ alone is the Head. Repent and follow Him.

ps - I probably should add as you did Dust that I believe this was the Lord speaking to my heart - not at all meant in a "thus saith the Lord" type spirit but certainly needs to be tested as the apostle Paul taught, do not despise prophecy but test all things and hold fast to what is good. But the NT does state that Jesus Christ is the Head of the Body of Christ, so that part I believe is in accordance with God's Word. This part is very consistent with what I believe the Lord has been telling me for nearly three years now, to bring a word to a body that has forgotten that Jesus Christ is the Head.

(Message edited by ulyankee on December 14, 2006)

[wisedove]

Amen. I agree with the both of you.

[lablady2]

Dust and UL,

I have an observation and a very sincere question here. I know that we are of different faiths, but I hope you will be willing to hear me from my spirit.

I felt that I had a personal word almost exactly like this regarding some of the leadership of MCM over 25 years ago, yet some have continued to flourish in their ministries. Your thoughts?

Also, I am curious as to what is meant by "the camp will be closed". Does that mean that mean a spiritual death as in "no forgiveness" (I'm assuming then that they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit) or a literal physical judgment?

I ask these questions not only for myself but for those who might be "lurking".

As for me, I will have no response following your response (should you choose to do so) because it's not my intention to spark a dialogue but to understand.

I assume that you expect comments, otherwise you probably would have e-mailed it or sent it directly to the leadership of EN rather than posting it on a public forum.

Thanks.

[ulyankee]

LL, I had thought of that btw, was first going to email it privately first but felt specifically led to post here publicly just as I have been doing for almost 3 years now, so I totally expect comments.

I quoted Dust - those weren't the specific words I felt were laid upon my heart but the meaning behind it was the same which is why I quoted her, as affirmation. The time is now, but time is running out. I don't know if it's because of spiritual death, physical death, physical judgment, legal consequences, etc. It may be different for different people, or perhaps Dust can elaborate. I don't believe that is mine to judge or determine but is up to God in His sovereign will and timing. I do know of at least one concrete area in the "natural" where the Lord is showing real mercy but I can't go into more specifics here. But the time to repent of these sins is definitely NOW. Real repentance that bears the fruit of repentance. Not just the words, "I repent" as if they are a magic formula in and of themselves as Ginger has posted about before, but a HEART of repentance for He sees our HEARTS.

Any good fruit borne by this ministry is because it was borne by those are abiding in Him despite the ministry's faults, not because they abide in EN. The more one abides in EN and becomes disconnected from Him, the less true, good fruit. The fact that these men have financially/physically flourished in the ministry doesn't necessarily indicate that the fruit is truly good fruit imho.

[lablady2]

I've been thinking about my post 1342 and I am disgusted with myself.

I just recently posted on another thread that I dislike religious jousting, and I do. I dislike using scriptures and bible verses like chess pieces. However, speaking the truth is an all together thing , and I feel compelled to speak the truth.

I am ashamed of the passive/aggressive tone of my last post, and I pray God's forgiveness for not being direct.

Dust: I find your "word from God" to be nothing of the sort. It is a tactic of threat and intimidation in the name of God that MCM used and that, according to your own post, EN uses also. I fail to see any difference at all.

How dare you, in God's name, threaten these people with separation from God when your own scripture says that nothing, NOTHING, can separate one who has accepted Christ from the love of God?

I am disgusted by your cowardice. If you believe this warning to be a true word from you, YOU have every obligation to see that it is received by the leadership of EN and that doesn't mean posting it on a message board that they may or may not frequent.

In my opinion, at least in respect to your original post on this thread, you are not so much different than those you condemn.

[wiseasaserpentgentleasadove]

wow, ll.
i did not find your post 1342 to be passive/aggressive. I was actually going to post right after you and say that I thought it was nice that you came sincerely wanting answers to specific concerns or questions you had. Now, you come right back for whatever reason and change your tone.

We are to judge words. We are not to blast each other.

[dust]

Ulylankee,
I knew it was bit risky to write this, that not everyone here posting believes in prophecy, but so far it has been respected. I felt this was from God, for the words surprised me and I had to ask God to please clairify the same thing that Lab asked. I felt nothing but LOVE for these people/leaders when I wrote this, warning them for their own good. It truly felt like a father's love.

Lablady,
"the camp will be closed". The camp is NOT heaven. It is the Body of Christ, here, where true spiritual fathers and mothers can help to restore them back to God, to the true gospel and back to ministry as servants not leaders. I think of the apostle Paul who was humbled and although he was VERY EDUCATED in Judiasm, he had to start at the beginning and learn the true gospel, starting with Ananais. He didn't preach for three years.

These leaders are in very high and comfortable positions, where integrity did not match their worldly talents. A true repentance will require a great humility, and SHARING GLORY, like you share a tent, with other men of God who can help them who are NOT EN. Like Paul couldn't help himself, he was BLIND, these men cannot help themself; they are blind.

Lablady, if this WORD you received was similar 25 years, you know that SOME have repented. They are here on the board. It may also mean you still have a role to play. I don't know.

Also, I can tell you that some pastors I know (from MCM days) have also repented, but I will protect their identity. These pastors helped my husband and I leave. They were not junior guys, so I have hope and sincere love for many of them inside, even for Rice Broocks, who I still consider my friend, although I don't know if he would appreciate that at this time. But, he is the one I pray the most for. (I'll say more on that later).

There was a bit of unrest this summer on the inside with pastors struggling and fighting for public repentance. There are many leaders very unhappy, very much in pain.

This is not a war like the red team against the blue team. It's a spiritual battle and the supposed enemy is not red or blue, it's Satan who doesn't care or discriminate. He wants us all to have our eyes on the things of this world and not on God. Satan couldn't tempt Jesus in the dessert to be the ruler of this world, but that doesn't mean he went away.

EN wants to take their worldy talent, turn it into worldly power and rule the world. We can SEE how ungodly their ambition is, but they do NOT see it. They are SURE of themself. This is blindness. And, these words will mean nothing if God doesn't activate the words into their heart.

[ulyankee]

I can't and don't want to speak for anyone else... but I know that several top leaders do read and monitor this board and that there's actually a better chance of reaching many of them through here than through personal correspondence, or at least that is what has happened according to my personal experience and observation. I wish that weren't true and would personally prefer to approach individuals quietly and privately, but I know of several posters, including myself, who have tried to appeal to leadership directly and privately in various ways and have not gotten anywhere - have been stonewalled, ignored or had it turned around on them where the person bringing the message is the problem because they aren't "submitting to authority." One specific example where the opposite holds true has to do with EN's statement of faith which has been changed as a result of what has been posted here, or at least it seems to have been a contributing factor to that change. Or what was reported in communiques. Also, one will see what happens as far as the ECFA is concerned which is a promise that has been made by this ministry and its "ancestors" (MCM, CFC) for many, many years and since the communiques are common knowlege and not just restricted to a small group of leaders they can be held "accountable" to that pledge that was made (since EN states it believes in accountability).

blessings,
ulyankee

[dust]

Lablady

I was writing my response to you which took a while and did not even see your post until after I had answered you.

The camp has nothing to do with hell, but ministry.

I believe if God led me to post, then He also leads those he intends to read it here. I trust God. And, I know that if I lost my way in ministry, I would want someone to come and get me. This is a cry out to those who once followed Jesus with all their hearts and God is telling them they are loved and that there is grace for them.

That you missed this and looked for evil intent on my part is sad to me.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All
I had a similar word that I delivered to a regional staff meeting. I had told this here before. It was not as complex , or detailed, as those here on this thread. It was from James, were he was telling about not giving the best seats to the wealthy and the important, James 2:1-13

James 2 :
My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism.

#3- For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes,

#4- and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say" You sit here in a good place, and you say to the poor man, " You stand over here, or sit down by my footstool,"

#5-have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives?

#6-Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?


#9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

#12-So speak and so act , as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.


Well, there was silence, and then began the campaign to discredit me and my family. I hope they are now listening, some there are now at Bethel. I hope that they find the courage.}

[wiseasaserpentgentleasadove]

good word, coppertree. love it.

[dust]

Copper
Thanks for sharing that.

[xman3]

coppertree

That scripture was one of the issues I laid out my case for in the meeting I referred to in another post which I recorded. It was one of 5 issues I recall. I recall that the explanation of why I was incorrect centered primarily on the fact that that scripture dealt with money. Gee, now financial impropriety has arisn.

Maybe I was ahead of my time.

No-one ever bothers discrediting me though. That's the joy of being just another brick in the wall.

[wildwood_]

I do not quite know how all the pieces fit...but I have found the the things that were "REAL" from the Lord in 1975 and 1976 for me as personal words that I thought were related to a specific event of an 18 year old girl...were not just for me alone...(goes back to beginning to more "fully" understanding and "Seeing") That a pattern was being set that I didn't see then or maybe became too confused to follow....of the the Lord's Presence...and HIS GRACE.

All I know is that one of the absolute times I KNOW I had a word...it was related to falsehoods but it was a broader "feel" it was given by the Lord to me specifically to discern His Wisdom from Men's False Words or a False Gospel I think I've posted it before. Perhaps, I memorized it as a child and it returned to me as prompted by the Holy Spirit when most needed...It saved my Soul from doubting Jesus. There's nothing appropriate as described above in how EN treats or treated its more affluent individuals... preferred seats, better parties, special invites...ick...that is not Godly "Wisdom"...on any level....and it cheats the "Wealthy" of the one thing they need the most...to give of themselves....and not receive....EN is robbing them of their chance to have an Abundant Life of Joy by not allowing them to serve, to take lower seats, to be valued for who they are becoming in Christ and not for their Gold.... It's rather brutal if you think about it...starving men and womens' Souls....for money.... And They KNOW BETTER.... Shame on them.

James 3:17 Amplified <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

But the wisdom from above is first of all pure (undefiled); then it is peace-loving, courteous (considerate, gentle). [It is willing to] yield to reason, full of compassion and good fruits; it is wholehearted and straightforward, impartial and unfeigned (free from doubts, wavering, and insincerity).<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

XMan...hmmm you may have been ahead of your time but ah.....
<font size="-2">pssst, I think your time is NOW too!</font> http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[40days40years]

I know there are lots of sincere believers in EN at all levels but as far as the camp being closed, maybe it means that God will write Ichabod on this thing if their not careful and do not repent. God can remove the candle stick. The Holy Spirit can pack his bags and fly off in regards to this ministry if he wants to. There are spiritually dead churches all over the place, that does not mean they might not have a smattering of believers in them but those churches that has happened to are dead.

My greatest fear in regards to this movement would be that un-repentant elements in it would be used by the false prophet in a very powerful way. Of course I do not believe the great tribulation has taken place. I have always had a sense of foreboding about this ministry, a general feeling of unease that something is terribly wrong. You know this ministry can end up being "very special" in a very bad way also and can be used to fulfill a horrible destiny. Lets pray that does not happen.

[dust]

The letter Paul wrote to the Galatians warns us all of a false gospel and it's reward.

Galatians 1: 6-10

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--

7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

10 Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.


And the Matthew Henry commentary explains these verses this way:

The apostle solemnly denounces, as accursed, every one who attempts to lay so false a foundation. All other gospels than that of the grace of Christ, whether more flattering to self-righteous pride, or more favourable to worldly lusts, are devices of Satan. And while we declare that to reject the moral law as a rule of life, tends to dishonour Christ, and destroy true religion, we must also declare, that all dependence for justification on good works, whether real or supposed, is as fatal to those who persist in it. While we are zealous for good works, let us be careful not to put them in the place of Christ's righteousness, and not to advance any thing which may betray others into so dreadful a delusion.
Verses 10-14 In preaching the gospel, the apostle sought to bring persons to the obedience, not of men, but of God. But Paul would not attempt to alter the doctrine of Christ, either to gain their favour, or to avoid their fury. In so important a matter we must not fear the frowns of men, nor seek their favour, by using words of men's wisdom. Concerning the manner wherein he received the gospel, he had it by revelation from Heaven. He was not led to Christianity, as many are, merely by education.

[dust]

Today I remembered something that so disturbed me, and at the time I brushed it off. It was in our first year or so, and the sr. associate pastor got down on his knees during worship up on stage.

Then I saw the look of disapproval from Rice, and the tense atmosphere, the whispering.

I never saw that pastor or any pastor kneel down after that.

What we all bowed down to, including me, of which I publicly here repent before the Lord, is I bowed down to this spirit that prevented free worship to Jesus Christ.

A few years later the same pastor who kneeled before the Lord in public, exhalted Rice Broocks at a staff/leadership Christmas party, as the NEXT BEST THING TO JESUS CHRIST. This man did not start out like this when he arrived on the scene, so I have great mercy toward him, and I think just represents many of the leaders that have been trapped in idolatry.

I believe when the pastors and the church were no longer allowed to BOW DOWN TO JESUS and WORSHIP, (according to the desires of the Holy Spirit) that it became a true temple of idolatry, and I repent for participating, for following men and not God.

I pray for the leaders to be FREE to publicly kneel before the Lord be cleansed with repentance, experience the freedom to walk humble and open up the gates for the congregation to experience TRUE worship.

And, that same pastor then developed a worship primal scream at the end of the music, where he decided that what pleased the Holy Spirit was screaming as loud as you could. This felt so man-led, not spirit-led. But, I would do it anyway. I feel embarrased for some of the things I did. I repent. I ask the leaders to repent and stop making your sheep do things they know stink in the Lord's eyes.

[maranatha1984]

Okay I will end my Blog with something like this and it will be an appeal to Steve Murrell (like an idiot I hold out hope that Steve is different than the EN Mighty Men- he was different than Phil Rice et all thity years ago)

Here is my manifesto;

1. Drop all tithing requirements of EN affiliated churches. Let the churches give what they will willingly and not by compunction (sound familiar- it is Paul's advice!)
2. Remove the clauses that allow EN to remove a pastor. Devolve completely the charge of the local ministry to the local elders and deacons. Let no one say I am of Cephas or Apollos.

3.Rebuke the church and its leadership from elevating those that are celebrities and have wealth. Publicly repent and set your face away from celebrity worship. It is ANTI CHRIST behavior to engage in this and completely against the scriptures> UNtil the Christians came along the idea of ANONYMOUS Donations was unheard of. Preach on the widows might for 12 straight weeks and use as EN's tag line "Do not let the left hand know what the right hand is doing"
4. Publicly state that EN is no better and possibly worse than other denomincations. That they have NO SPECIAL PLACE WITH GOD. Preach the parable of the late workers four Sundays in a row and post it on your site. GOD DECIDES Who shall sit at HIS LEFT AND RIGHT. REBUKE PUBLICLY THE IDEA THAT YOU WILL RULE AND REIGN WITH CHRIST for we will but NOT IN THE SENSE THAT EN IMPLIES. Publicly declare yourselves in line with Christ teaching from the story of Andrew James and John arguing who would be at his right or left hand.
5. Rebuke all pastors who are living in mansions...they should sell their homes and move into more modest quarters donating the surplus from this sell to the poor or needy.

I have no finished all 10 points and have not cleaned these up but there you go

[maranatha1984]

Dove:A few years later the same pastor who kneeled before the Lord in public, exhalted Rice Broocks at a staff/leadership Christmas party, as the NEXT BEST THING TO JESUS CHRIST

Tike: Not only is this sickening it is HERETICAL...no man can stand to look at Christ in His Glory...even the Angels bow in fear and and the beast with wings shout out Holy Holy Holy is the Lord God Almighty.

Call me crazy but Martin Luther and John Calvine would have had ANYONE who uttered such a BLASPHEMOUS statement flogged at best or burned at the stake at worst...

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Dove: A few years later the same pastor who kneeled before the Lord in public, exhalted Rice Broocks at a staff/leadership Christmas party, as the NEXT BEST THING TO JESUS CHRIST

Tike: Not only is this sickening it is HERETICAL<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Forget about heretical, for a moment...isn't it just pathetic? There are 5 billion people in the world and, out of all of them, Rice Broocks is the next best thing to Jesus Christ? ::Insert eyeroll here:: It's a well known fact that David Bowie and Michael Cane are at least 1000 times cooler than Rice Broocks.

[forword]

Tikie... I know you are not finished and I like your first 5, but I will go ahead and add a few big ones on my reform list...

OPEN THE BOOKS FOR ALL TO SEE...Post financial reports on the web site so anyone can see where the money is being spent.

Use the churches "Helps" misistry to serve widows and orpahans rather than pastors. Pastors should pay for movers, babysitters, and airport shuttles like the rest of us do. Save the free help for those in the body that really NEED the help.

[ulyankee]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

OPEN THE BOOKS FOR ALL TO SEE...Post financial reports on the web site so anyone can see where the money is being spent.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

BTW, making an audited financial statement available to ALL who ask for it, not just senior pastors, not just core leaders, but ALL is a REQUIREMENT for membership in the ECFA. Also, restricting access to this information is grounds for being removed, so ECFA membership is not akin to Calvinist soteriology where once ECFA, always ECFA. Every Nation stated multiple times in last year's communiques that it was committed to joining the ECFA. Also, several people have stated off list that they have been told by senior leadership that an audit has been completed. However, as far as I know none of those people who have been told this actually saw an audited financial statement, and EN is not currently a member of the ECFA.

Or... if EN cannot gain ECFA membership, an explanation why to its rank and file membership (again, not just "leaders") might be in order since it did pledge that it would submit an application for membership as part of its reorganization (reformation) process.

(Message edited by ulyankee on December 20, 2006)

[ulyankee]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Devolve completely the charge of the local ministry to the local elders and deacons. Let no one say I am of Cephas or Apollos.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

1984, this is "how" that works in conjunction with the "required bylaw" that you referred to in your post, or at least worked up until recently. In addition, EN leadership (what was once known as the IAT; now IMT) at least in the past appointed local leadership, including pastors and elders, and expected ELDERS in particular to be "joined relationally" with and "accountable" to EN international team leaders. This supposedly "protects the Senior Pastor from potentially unwise decisions."

This is from the old Guidelines, Policies and Procedures for Convention Membership document, so perhaps this has changed and we aren't aware of this. However, the current guidelines on EN's website (http://www.everynation.org/en/top/about-us/every-nation-churches.html) state that one of the responsibilities of local churches is "recognizing the role of Every Nation’s International Ministry Team in the spiritual leadership of their local churches," and that one of the current responsiblities of the IMT (http://www.everynation.org/en/top/about-us/global-oversight-structure/international-ministry-team.html) is to help "train and appoint elders," which are very broad statements and certainly can allow for the same kind of practices (and potentially divided loyalties as noted in your post) as before.

See robert_unknown's post about what transpired when the Salzburg church decided to leave EN (http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&amp;post=368568#POST368568) for a fairly recent example of how EN has put this into practice. However, in that case the local elders' decision prevailed.

(Message edited by ulyankee on December 20, 2006)

[philiprosenthal]

See thread on how not to repent of adultery cover-up.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/27112.html?1166622274

[40days40years]

Well marantha84 these men are not going to give up their large houses unless they can't make the payments but the suggestions here that they open the books and make the leaders pay their own way like forword says makes a lot of sense.

One thing I noticed is that you never heard Paul tell Timothy to make sure that the people tithe and to bring him his share. He does say that those who preach the gospel should be able to make a living preaching it even though on a personal level much of the time Paul would not burden the congregation by asking them for support. He would receive offerings and gifts so he could help the poor or ask those who were better off to help the poor.

Pretty funny j-2 about the next best thing/ pathetic comment.

[wwjdwwjd]

Weiner, Barker, Brooks, Papes and Russel can do no wrong. They are nothing but false prophets who spiritually raped those you sought Jesus with a pure heart.

Even after 20 years I suffer minute by minute. How I suffer is totally irrelevant. And believe me, not even God can heal this. After 20 years...well, like the songs says, "Crying won't help, praying will do you no good."

[sameo]

I am so sorry wwjd for the way you were hurt by these guys. You and many others.


Sameo

[playstation]

i couldnt agree more. God is angry. But he will comfort us.

[exhrcmember]

The Apostle Paul says," I will not charge for the preaching of the Gospel lest I hinder it."

[exhrcmember]

I'm new to this thread but isn't Morning Star have something to do with Rick Joyner. I thought I came from a messed up church but you all seem to have really suffered from this ministry that you all are writing about. Trust me hell will be a horrible punishment for some of these leaders. Just a slip of the greek or hebrew in either direction and those " holy " "sanctified" self righteous leaders will have an eternity of torment that I actually don't wish on anyone. What is the name of this church and where is it located? I come from Harvest Rock Church where the self proclaimed false Apostle Che Ahn has a church, located in Pasadena, Calif.

(Message edited by exhrcmember on January 13, 2007)

[xman3]

Hello ex....

Rick Joyner's Morningstar is a different Morninstar that MSI (Morningstar International Ministries). There are some loose theological ties, I think, but no formal relation. The many different Morninstar ministries is supposedly one of the reasons that MSI changed their name to EN (Every Nation) to avoid confusion.

EN is an international ministry shrinking all over the world from half of what I read here and elsewhere. It's current leadership and major bases are better related by others more informed than me, though, and you can find most of that info scattered throughout the forum. When I was a part, Bethel World Outreach center was the flagship church and home base. I think it may still be, but there's been a lot of shuffling going on.

There are certainly current and ongoing problems, but a lot of the "suffering" took place in an earlier incarnation of EN called Maranatha Christian Ministries, often referred here as MCM.

A lot of the posters here have long gotten past any personal bitterness and have long since escaped any abuse. I liken this area to a watchdog area to provide a place for those who have suffered to vent, inform, or heal, or whatever God wants to do in them, and to monitor supposed changes taking place as EN deals with major issues of error and sin that have come to light , especially over the last few years.

Me, I just like the people here and enjoy a sort of fellowship with people who share a common "heritage" of both good and bad. There are some real pitbulls here though, and EN won't just slip things by and sweep anything under the carpet easily, as many are quite concerned over the potential abuse or control of current, past, or prospective members of this ministry.

Personally, I believe that the grace of God is greater than these things and don't necessarily think that too many will actually suffer for eternity. There are certainly consequences though, but I'll leave those judgements to the one who sees our hearts and lives as open and laid bare before his eyes. I will hope for the best and continue praying for them as I feel like it, and leave the real hard hitting stuff to other, more discerning individuals who have a better handle on the fine line between sin and accusation and a righteous way of dealing with their ongoing practices and reputation.

That's just my perspective, and you can see I'm rather new here also, but this was a large and important part of my life.

xman

[dust]

X: You summed up beautifully the way I see FactNet. I may take this post and start a thread with it.

You wrote: A lot of the posters here have long gotten past any personal bitterness and have long since escaped any abuse. I liken this area to a watchdog area to provide a place for those who have suffered to vent, inform, or heal, or whatever God wants to do in them, and to monitor supposed changes taking place as EN deals with major issues of error and sin that have come to light , especially over the last few years.

[ginger1]

xmen , remember the communique that EN release in the past. All these problems are due to "growing pains". Well, it look like they are not having any "growing pains" any longer. And the problem of control and abuse are still there and is still growing worse and worse.

[40days40years]

shrinking pains ?

[40days40years]

shrinking wallet pains?

Less money for charity donations, smaller boats, bad news.

[ginger1]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[40days40years]

One thing that strikes me about the title of this thread. It says Leaders "please" repent. Would Rusty Russell say "please" repent, would Phil ? Come to think of it, did any leader in EN ever say please when addressing people from the pulpit?

My bet is people like Phil would consider saying please as a weakness. After the service they would grab you and say, what are you doing? Never ask them and say please, tell them.

[xman3]

There it goes again. I read a post, and I just have to laugh out loud too often, whether it is supposed to be funny or not.

shrinking pains?

shrinking wallet pains?

Please tell me that someone was at least trying to be a little funny, or I may be forever banished to the Cuckoo's nest for a lack of respect. I find if I look for a little humor here now and then, it makes it a lot easier to stomache the real problems and issues covered here.

Its a little bit like a child growing up and realizing that his father really isn't superman after all. When you're young you think everthing your told is true and wish you grow up to be just like them. When you get a little older, you might rebel completely for awhile as you find your own way. Then, after awhile, you settle somewhere in the world of reality (hopefully) and can recognize the faults and deal with them, while still being able to love them and respect that which is worthy of respect, while you and those you touch can better see and move forward in a greater measure of wisdom and grace.

I love and respect my parents, for instance, but I take great pains in making sure that some of the stuff that I was brought up with are not passed on to my own children, while somehow trying to teach them that despite anything I feel compelled to deal with doesn't mean that we don't love them as a part of the family believing they did their best to bring me up as best they knew how.

Of course, there's a limit to this loose analogy. My parents never tried to take over another families children, aren't continuously starting over again to get it right, and they never used God or the Bible to manipulate me to do their bidding on purpose or in ignorance. Never took my money under false pretenses either. Love doesn't do those things. Sometimes I wonder if the leaders of EN have done or are really doing these things and if they will ever stop, but mostly I hope for the best and keep the surrounding debate in my own mind. Whether they've done it to me or not, there's a trail of destruction that just can't be overlooked and this is one of several places that will see to it that it is not. I'm glad there's such a variety of views here, as there is more wisdom in a number of viewpoints than just my own limited view.

There are occasional flare ups and ill thought postings here, but I notice people are quick to apologize (repent) and most often go out of their way to consider other's views and "feelings" whether there's full agreement or not.

Keeps me coming back http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

xman

[ginger1]

Well, they did blame it on their "growing pain", IT's Those churches and the People's fault , we are getting to big to handle this. So the churches and the people Reverse it. Big time. I do wonder whats the next communique would be, anybody want to guess ?

[xman3]

ginger-

I only read part of the past communique. Growing pains? I missed that in my study of scripture.

On a lighter note though, you are, I presume from or in the Phillipines? I was there in '85 for 2 weeks to help establish the Makati (can't remember how to spell this) church. Steve Murrell picked me up from the airport after I waited in terror at the airport for a long time thinking they forgot about me. I spent 1 day on the campus and was seriously chided for a couple of things.

Greg Ball preached a scathing message one of my first mornings about some of us (I thought he was talking to me alone) who weren't, and this is the God's honest truth, smiling enough and manifesting the life of god on our countenance while there. I'm kind of low key and never fit the evangelastic mode very well, so I took it personally.

Also, I wasn't there to be on campus but to work with someone else particularly which I then did. I absolutely loved that experience. I supposedly "led one person to the Lord" there in my powerful ministry, and I left soon so I don't know what happened with him anyway. I always wondered if he stayed around or what happened in his life afterwards. Did you know a guy named Artemio Royo(not 100% sure of the name).

We also had a wonderful girl here in Lansing from the Phillipines, but I'll not mention her name here. She was one of my favorites in our small church here. I thought Manilla was quite unique. Great opulence in Makati, with ramshackle "houses" and poverty a mere fence away. A lot of burned up remnants from Marcos' time there also. I have a great heart and affinity for the Asian people and for the Hispanic people and culture more so than american. If I ever do go back into ministry or missionary work, it will probably be in that vein.

Anyway, I'm interested in these things I mentioned and have some rather fond memories of the Phillipines, my only foray outside of the U.S.

xman

[ginger1]

I was from the Phillipines from 1983 to 1990. I was there when the church was still newly planted. One of the 250 people. I never visited the Makati church. I have always stayed at Recto church. The church as I recall, there are people who were controlling and legalistic . But for the most part I did enjoyed it, it was fun. As long as its not about courtship, you will be fine. There was once a girl , I think her name is Miranda who just literally harassed me to evangelize, yelling and screaming at me because I don't evangelized. I just avoided her. The next thing I learned was that she was fired.
We left in 1990. I just recently found out how Luther Mancao drag the church down through his offensive legalism and control. He was removed after several years. It is well known that Steve Murrell won't do anything until there are several hundreds of witness. Which is pretty sad. By that time too many people has been spiritually injured.
Pastor's job was suppose to protect the sheep, not the wolves. The wolves are highly protected sad to say. It was not like that in the beginning. It was the opposite while I was there.
I think during the time when Makati was just being started, the church was still fine and powerful. Its very different now. Quite the opposite. It is now the EN's reflection. Not Christ reflection any longer.

[xman3]

Thanks for the response. I take it you did not know Artemio. It seems Steve Murrell told me he eventually ran the sound board for awhile, and he was, I believe, at Recto. That's too bad about the current state of things. When I went to recto, there were over 600 people at those meetings. I never saw so many people in one area in my life as near that church in Manilla. I always hated the pressure to evangelize. I just wasn't good at it because I didn't have the right personality to fit the MCM profile of evangelism. I really beat myself over the head about it back then and often felt like a failure because of it.

Not anymore though, even though I'm still not much of an evangelist. Hope you've come through it all allright. You seem well informed of things, particularly on the asian front. I'm probably not as much of an EN opponent as you, but you seem to have your reasons for feeling as you do which I don't take lightly.

I never heard of Luther Moncao. Legalism is a killer.

xman

(Message edited by xman3 on January 15, 2007)

[robert_unknown]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I only read part of the past communique. Growing pains? I missed that in my study of scripture. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif
growing pains? EN advertised itself as THE healthy environement for churches and people. They always told us that these sort of things can not happen if there are accountability relations and covering in a movement.
now - not 10 years after HP has joined - we have to learn that it all was empty words.
its not "growing pains" - its false promises, false disciopleship (sheperding), false mission (reach and rule) and spiritual abuse which makes people disilusionised (which is in fact GOOD - better to live withou illusions!) and disapointed, not to metion all the people that got really damage in their soul and in their spirit!

[anti_fascist]

Dear all,
I can't but help to think that EN, and now also His People are clever pyramid schemes, where objective numeber one is to MAKE MONEY.

All the nice things claimed about the Gospel, Jesus, reaching the lost etc,etc only apply as long as that it allows those at the top to MAKE MONEY.

Imagine, somebody is going to contribute say $200 a month for 40 years. Invested at 4% interest you get to have in excess of $200 million dollars! That's the bottom line: making sure people will tithe. Jesus, God, etc? Great alibi.

[xman3]

Robert-

Yup, growing pains is not much of an excuse for anything. Still can't find 'em in the Bible. I'm not sure that many of these problems wouldn't have been avoided or at least existed on a much smaller scale if indeed there was true accountability. When you are accountable only to yourself for so long, however, its hard to recognize error much less correct it.

I'm probably in the minority here, but I still have a difficult time indicting the motives of most of EN's leadership. I still believe that EN truly wants to preach the gospel and accomplish the will of God in the earth, in whatever fashion they believe God has called them to do it.

Somewhere along the way, certain men or things have crept in and perverted what I hope were and are pure motives. It would have been nice if they had realized the sins and errors on their own and made wholesale changes and repentance, but it seems outside pressure and input was the only way for much of it to come to light, particularly in their own realization of the depth of the problems. I really believe a lot of these problems crept into peoples lives and ministries unnoticed, and were explained away easily in view of prevailing teachings concerning financial blessings and a strong adherance to a false perspective of authority, accusation towards that authority, and how to work these things out in leading a church or ministry.

One can't ignore 30 years of this stuff in many instances by simply saying we were wrong and we're changing, and expect those who have suffered to simply forgive and forget even if scripture may direct us to do so to an extent, because we are real people who have to deal with this stuff and its effects until they're really dealt with. I ceratinly am disillusioned over aspects of EN and the church in general, and I also think that in some ways that is a good thing because I won't be so quick to just buy into all that my pastor's or church feeds me. Too many are more than disillusioned though. Some have left christianity, some suffer physically and mentally and have difficulty trusting any church at all.

Personally, I'm at a loss as to what God's real view is as to how to deal with some of these realizations. I see more in the New testament leading me to practice forgiveness, and show grace and mercy, even in the face of blatent abuse to an extent. I get incensed at some of what I see and read, but still try to let christian charity and sensibility govern most of my responses. This is a frustrating perspective because it's tough to reconcile that notion with some of what wells up inside me concerning much of this.

I'm not saying anyone in particular here is not doing so, but I have difficulty in this area. I think I would feel differently had I personally experienced the level of mistreatment others have though. When it gets too heavy for me, I just pop over to the cuckoo's nest or elsewhere and let myself go a bit. I'll probably never stop being interested in what EN does though, and I guess part of me will always be a product of both the good and bad of my time there.

xman

[john_r_jones]

Ginger,
when you say "Recto" is that the Tandem theater on Recto Blvd. where the meeting place was in the basement of the building? Just curious if it was the place we fixed when I was there.

Jonesee

[dust]

Xman: I'm probably in the minority here, but I still have a difficult time indicting the motives of most of EN's leadership. I still believe that EN truly wants to preach the gospel and accomplish the will of God in the earth, in whatever fashion they believe God has called them to do it.

Dust: I have WANTED to believe this, but in talking to various people still inside, I can tell you, the blood of Jesus is not flowing...It's worse.

I want to shed light on something. There is a church here in Nashville, called Church of Christ. They are all independent so one can be different from the next one. My mother belongs to one right near the neighborhood of the EN leaders. My mother lives in apt. on fixed income. Most of her church is well off.

Last night we hosted her group for a big dinner, as MONTHLY her group takes turns for a big dinner and just for fun and to see who needs some help, etc.

We NEVER experienced the love in five years that we experienced last night.

My husband said, "I rec'd more THANK YOU's from this group than in all the five years at Bethel. And the hugs, kisses, and pleading with us to come and be served by them at the next meeting as a thank you.

It was INCREDIBLE. No preaching.......just the flow of the blood of Jesus everywhere. The ELDER was incredible. I felt what we're supposed to feel, and that is,

A LITTLE OF HEAVEN ON EARTH.

Tell me, do we hear these kind of stories in EN. The only way my mother would be invited to participate would be to put an apron on her...That's a fact. EN abused her. They kept money from her that they owed her and make her beg for it for months. They treated her very badly, like a servant.

Last night, the elder just went on and on about how much they love my mother, and she doesn't need to do anything for them to get this love. ISN'T this how our GOD IS?

Bethel loves to MOCK the Church of Christ. Calls them dead!

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All,
Still visiting, hard to get on line.
I am catching up , a little. It is interesting to note that En , used "growing pains" term to explain some of it's problem. The light of recent history-1984-5, shows that this was used by MCM, and quoted in the Wall Street Journal, by Bob Weiner to explain some of MCM problems. This article can be found on Ross's site, under MCM.
Very interesting...}

[marchingin]

You know what Dust. I had to be reimbursed for some money in the NZ church here and I asking, requesting in my nice christian way for months and months and finally had to lay it and demand it. It should not be this way! Who are they that think they can abuse their "followers" like this!

[ginger1]

xman, can you email me, I want to ask you about some people in the past. I never heard of Artemio, but I can ask around. Anyway, here is my email address anniegrey@msn.com

John R Jones, yes that is the Tandem church in Recto. Basement. Sewer smelling place. Rats running around the whole time. You guys did fix up the place pretty good. Bad thing is that , its a church with no bathroom. Everybody has to go to the neighboring restaurant to used the bathrooms. The sewer odor, we get all used to it. I also bought some Rat Poison, it killed a few rats. But it won't fix the rat problem. Its all restaurant upstairs.
When the church moved across the street, Tandem was soon become a Billiard Hall. The owner gave the church a hard time, the church wants the glass front door and the owner refused to give it. He wants to speak to Bob Weiner in person. Even though the church puts the door there and fix up the place. Nobody likes him. Eventually he gave the glass front door. I still could not believe that these people made a big argument of a glass front door when I heard of it. Its so menial.

[robert_unknown]

the term "growing pain" ALWAYS gets used in the context of problems, when people start to leave.
I heared this already during HP times long before EN...

[ginger1]

xman, I think i know who is Artemio now. if I am right, he is living in California now. Anyway, email me. Anniegrey@msn.com , he is out of EN.

[marchingin]

They have been having growing pains for 20 years http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif They must be pretty sore by now http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif

What I find so dangerous is the manipulations that are involved in EN. They say "we love you" and yet behind their back they are nasty, back stabbers who gossip often to their children about people in the church etc. Wow, great leadership model EN!! Why don't you start to fix yourself up and stop all this pretense of making changes when you have no intention or desire to.

I am heading back to the States and am totally disappointed by the whole EN thing. I left EN about a year and a half ago and decided to stay and check out this country and work a bit. NZ was a buzz - the country was spectacular - such a great place to have a holiday and the people are awesome. It is a pity about EN though.

Not sure what is really happening with the Auckland one except what I read here and it seems not so good. Christchurch is also not so good.

[dust]

Hi marchingin, and welcome!

Do you have a story to share? You say New Zealand? I've heard quite a few stories from that area.........not pretty either.

[john_r_jones]

Ginger,
the reason I ask is that I pointed out those issues and the investment of a rather huge sum of money to fix up a place that we didn't own and was rebuked for it. Seems the same sort of ideology is in place today "Damn the reason full speed ahead!"

Jonesee

[marchingin]

I didn't see anything to the degree of what has been mentioned on this site (some of that is just plan scary and I am glad that I did not) but I did see a lot of manipulation - coercing people into doing what men wanted not God.

The leaders basically worshipped the people pastors in Auckland.

I left because of a whole lot of little things. Nothing as dramatic as other have suffered but enough to make me question what is up and things that made me feel uncomfortable. I am glad that I did leave because I don't want to have any of this rub off on me.

I am from Grand Rapids if any knows of a good church there - heading back in about 2 months. Wasn't a christian when I left to study downunder so didn't really take any notice of the church scene there.

[ginger1]

Well, John that attitude was pass on to the Filipinos. As long as the leaders are not paying for it, they would squeezed it out of the people. The bad news is some did not even materialized.