CONGRATULATIONSto all of usWE ARE FREE

[sunshinesaint]

I think that we should have a thread that is simply and purely dedicated to the FABULOUS fact that most of us on this site are FREE. We should break out our best glasses and toast to each other! SERIOUSLY...we are all healing and that is the best gift we could have been given considering what we have all gone through! I have read some terrible hurts from this sick ministry and WE ARE OUT!!!! YIPEE YAY!!! so....I propose a toast...to all of you... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Now I shall progress with why I am so please to offer you all this toast...

[sunshinesaint]

- I no longer have to attend meetings every night of the week...just because i 'had to' rather than 'love to' attend.
- I can wear whatever I like to church. I can go in jeans and a baggy shirt http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif
- I can speak to the person next to me on the bus, without trying to "sell them" the idea of coming to church, becuase my "discipler" is on my back about bringing more people to home group.
- I can talk to people about Jesus and how much he changed my life without the purple book or 2 QUESTION TEST...
- I can make friends with people regardless or the "sins" they are involved in - before I could not do this as these people were "compromising" and I was not allowed to "hang out" with them. I can now show Jesus's love to everyone and that they are worth it! And that Jesus thinks that they are worth it!
- I can CONFIDENTLY pray to God and know that He is able to speak to me directly about my life and life decisions.
- I know longer have to pass every decision I have to make through my discipler! I can go direct to God YIPEE!
- I can speak to a member of the opposite sex, without fear...knowing that I won't fall into sin by this action - that I can have self-control through Christ who strengthens me NOT through my discipler who holds me back.
- I can attend other meetings that are held but other church organisations, without thinking "less of them"
- I can go to Christian music festivals and enjoy them!
- I can make REAL FRIENDS...who won't backstab me at staff meetings
- I can walk my life knowing I DO NOT HAVE a 'spirit of assumption' or "spirit of pride" or any other spirit that was cast upon my shoulders! Praise Jesus for carry that burden!
- I can go to a church and know it is not on founded upon deceit and manipulation and "sheperding"!!!! (Hopefully http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif)
- I can spend time with my family and love them, rather than being pulled away from them and told not to see them.
- I can watch TV and go to movies!!!!!
- I do not feeel guilty if I miss a Sunday at church...
- i do not have anyone to "account" to except Jesus!!! Yahoo!!
- I do not have to pay hordes of money to do ENLI/VLI!!! SAVE MONEY
- I do not have to be FAKE
- I do not have to suck up to anyone!!!
- I can throw away my copies of, 'Everynation in our generation' by Broocks
- I AM FREE....I AM FREE...
- I do not have to attend a world conference in LA and pay stax of money to get there!!!
- I do not have to use words like, "CHAMP", "WE LOOOOOVE YOU", "COMPROMISE", "HIGHWAY OF HOLINESS" AGAIN!
- I can throw away "SUPERNATURAL CHILDBIRTH" the most fanatical book I have ever read! Yay
- I AM FREE...I AM FREE

IF YOU ARE NOT FREE...REMEMBER THAT YOU TOO CAN BE FREE!

IF YOU ARE FEELING...in your gut that something is wrong get out and BE FREE!
Jesus wants to be free in Him

[sameo]

Woohooooooo!!!! Amen Sunshinesaint! good job!!!!!

And I agree, it's so great to be free!!!!!

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"><font size="+2"><font color="0077aa">
Amen !!! Indeed !!!</font></font></font>

[flo1151]

I'll drink to that! Of course not in excess.

[mdillon]

WOW!!!!!
Sunshine, what a perfect name for you. Thank you for busting out this party. (I knew sameo would be the first one here, ha) Not only is your post a lot of fun, but powerful. Way to expose those religious wackazoids.

ss-I do not feeel guilty if I miss a Sunday at church...

me, sameo, and flo? we don't feel guilty if we miss a church on Sunday....

dilly

[40days40years]

sunshine that is an awesome post. If Rice read it he would pull out his hair.

Could you imagine if sunshines post 26 and 27 was put on flyers on car windshields at Bethel with the proper factnet URL?. That would case quite a stir. Don't try it anyone there are parking guards there protecting the BMW's

[miltietoast]

The Lord practiced catch and release on me

[wisedove]

<font size="+2"><font color="aa00aa">CHEERS!</font></font>

[jesusisawesome]

Sunshinesaint, I've been away from the board for a while, just recently trying to catch up and read. I am curious to know your story and where you're from. It would take me more time than I have to go through everything and read everything I have missed, but if you could point me in the right direction on these threads . . . blessings! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[sunshinesaint]

Hello again!! Yes this is great!!
I am happy to email you offline as I recently shared my story with an old friend who is also free from EN...just this week. Email me at sunshinesaint@hotmail.com I also have problems searching to find other member's stories. "Anyone know how yo do this easily?" Thanks

[40days40years]

It is not that easy sunshine. Perhaps a new category titled, Testimonies can be established. In the old days it was easy to keep track of everybodies stories but no longer.

[sunshinesaint]

I really wish we could use something like this to share with current EN members - who are mostly dying inside I bet just like we were! I thought all of the above that I went through was "normal" - BUT I AM NOW FREE....>glass being raised again> this time with coca cola http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[40days40years]

O.K I will raise a diet coke to you. Do you really think that current EN members are mostly dying inside? That is very sad, considering this is suppose to be a cutting edge ministry.

[40days40years]

Sunshine It is great you want to share with current EN members. Good for you.

[mdillon]

ctree-<font size="+2">Amen !!! Indeed !!!</font>

dove- <font size="+2">cheers!</font>

ok, i'm having what coppertree and dovey are drinking, 'cause they're a little boisterous, you know.

40/40 i like the idea of posting flyers. am also considering pasting sunshine's text to a sandwich board and walking around Rice's neighborhood. I'm not scared because he'll just think I'm Nick.

dilly

[40days40years]

LoLhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif Look Dilly I would be scared if Nick gave me a forboding word from God even if I was Rice I would be concerned so it might work (that tends to be a Rusty style though, oooh I'm getting mad, cool water, deep breaths). Heck post those flyers around certain wealthy neighborhoods, lots of bang for the buck since the leaders live within a stones throw of each other.

[40days40years]

O.K we must restrain ourselves since this is a thread created by a young EN person to reach youngsters in EN. I will say this Dilly before I gum up this wonderful thread to much. The Lord works in mysterious ways. The young ones in EN think Phil is a mighty apostle and are afraid of offending God if they oppose him. 40's theory: The Lord understands this and sends Phils childhood friends to throw his caboose back into the sandbox where it belongs along with the dorky hat and cane. Ditto for Rice. It is wonderful I luv it.

O.K Sunshine on with your mission, again great job.

[freedom43]

There seem to be stories on the "When you left and Why you Left Thread" but I haven't seen many elsewhere.

Welcome, Sunshine -- I love your list. It was about 15 years ago that I left but your list brought it all back. And, for me, it took a while to get past the guilt (i.e. baggage) of leaving befire I could really celebrate. I'm happy for you! Cheers! (Raising my coffee mug.)

[dust]

Freedom for me to be out in the community working and not inside of a church....involved with para ministries and NO GUILT, no one telling me "our church doesn't have that calling." (Calling to help the poor, sick, needy).

Freedom to live a week without thinking about "targeting" someone for my cell group.

Freedom to be authentic, talk about CHRIST, not a church or a pastor.

Freedom to mention where I attend church without a worry of hearing a "story of abuse."

Freedom to commune with the Body of Christ, not just EN people. Losing that "elite" attitude.

Enjoying other Christians as my brothers and sisters.....


Yes, certainly a lot to celebrate!

[lc_20]

Sunshinesaint,
The silver lining to the cloud of an EN past is the wonderful appreciation of freedom and peace that many never learn in this lifetime. We are truly blessed. Thanks for the reminder.

[sunshinesaint]

Yay -GO DUST!!!!
That is exactly what I mean!!!

Thank you all!
Who thinks i'm young!!! I feel pretty old...those years in EN take alot out of you!!! hehehe.
There we go again...
- freedom to feel young again!

Actually there is a little activist in me screaing to come out BUT I realise that we would have be careful and senstive...so generally I lay aside that nature and think it is the flesh...my poor husband has to hold me back though http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif chuckle chuckle...

HE had a few to add, but his log in has not arrived yet so on his behalf....


"william wallace"
....
"Here I go……………
I AM FREE TOO!
- I don’t have to say sorry about things that I am not sorry about that I did not do wrong. So that I can have the same opportunities at other people who are not “naughty”
- I don’t have to feel to ask permission if I think of looking for a new job…because I have my own brain!
- I don’t have to feel like I have to be a particular “Broocks” type of man because I am different to Rice Broocks
- I don’t have to console my wife after her discipler continuously crushed her
spirit
- I don’t have to go on a VICTORY weekend to gain victory over something I do no need victory OVER, nor knew I needed victory over &amp;#61514; and then feel like a dick when I do not have a FABULOUS story to share on stage then next day at church.
- I don’t have to feel guilty anymore when things aren’t going particularly well in my life, like I have someone personal or curse over me or something.
- I don’t have to feel pressure to go to “events” when I am too tired, busy or when the cat has died and I want to mourn at home.
- I don’t have to feel like I HAVE to laugh at my pastor’s jokes even though I have heard that MANY previous sermons! And they are not funny anymore!"


Celebrations to you all from us http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[sameo]

WOWOW!!! MORE great reminders!! thanks again Sunshine, and also Dust and William!!!!

I am free to DO absolutely NOTHING on my day off &amp; not feel guilty about it.(And NO chance of having to give my day off up to go on campus and witness) And NO getting rebuked for NOT going.

I am free to simply be a MOM and not feel I must have some great vision for my life from God. Being a MOM is a great vision. Now I see that. Now I KNOW that.(but I also don't have to feel guilty for having an outside job if I choose, in fact I don't need permission from an elder, and I have choices to do what it is I want, or think is right for me. Like William says...I've got a brain)

It sure is good to be Free!

[j2theperson]

I'm free to take a breather from church if I feel like. God can speak to me through my own prayers and Bible reading, and He loves me and knows that I love Him even if I'm confused about the whole church thing and feel like taking a break from going to Sunday services. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[wildwood_]

And I'm free to arrive late to this thread and to Church services and to sit in the back quietly if I want to...

I am also Free to raise my hands in praise to just shoulder height &amp; still be fully praising God! Or to sit out a Jericho March around the church pews without having my commitment to the Lord doubted.... Or to join in a Jericho March around the church pews without having my sanity doubted!! And to sing in JOY to My Creator with or without musical instruments in a worship service...and to still think that "A Cappella" does really SOUND best, even if a bit off-key....!!!! I am Free to post &amp; ramble on this board without fear or condemnation and to simply enjoy the fellowship!(And thank you SunshineSaint for starting this thread!!)

<font size="+2"><font color="ff0000">H</font><font color="119911">a</font><font color="0000ff">l</font><font color="ffff00">l</font><font color="aa00aa">e</font><font color="ff6000">l</font><font color="0077aa">u</font><font color="808080">j</font><font color="ff0000">a</font><font color="ffff00">h</font><font color="0000ff">!</font>
</font>

[jesusisawesome]

Sunshinesaint, thanks for the e-mail address . . . and the rays of joy leaping from your postiings . . . like warm rays of sunshine!

[maranatha1984]

Free for 23 years and counting...freedom is GREAT!
For where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Liberty. You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."

Free to study the Bible without some "pre-set agenda" that furthers someone other than God's agenda.

Sunshinesaint welcome- if I have not said it before...

What a blessing your opening post was!

Tikie

[flo1151]

Just like the song "We won't get fooled again" from the Who. Lyrics
We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

The change it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that's all


I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

And everybody said amen.

[miltietoast]

tik you were predestined to study the bible in freedom

I was ruined or saved in that when I got saved I read the new testament through several times without anybody telling me what it meant. I had never been to church and barely knew Jesus. Best thing that happened to me,kept me asking questions did not swallow follow(afraid of the filet and release leaders

[hawaii8085]

I am a newbie to this board.

the more I read here the happier I am that I was in the hawaiian fellowship of maranatha. there seemed to be great benifit to the geographical isolation.

I left in early 85 because it suddenly occured to me, my father was an elder in the Church (big C) If I submitted to maranatha rather than him, he would have to quit his position to be properly lined up with scripture. I was given a lovely set of saki glasses as a parting gift, I still have them displayed in my dining room as a reminder to look before I leap.

My question is: how is what brooks et al are doing now related to maranatha? Is the same kind of mind control being used? I have been away from it for 20 years now, but will be living near a fellowship and am questioning the effects visiting could have on my children.

[dust]

Welcome Hawaii:

Please take some time to read through the history if you can. What you will find out is that while there are some differences in Maranatha and EN, IMHO, the indoctrination to their belief system of control is more subtle and, thus, more dangerous.

You can be there a for a long time and not realize what you are involved in (as we were) until you get closer to leadership. Our personal experiences included heavy handed control and discipleship, false teaching of headship and covering doctrine, misuse of spriitual authority, VERY LIMITED BIBLICAL teaching, disregard for the poor, and much more. In the end, this ministry broke our heart.
The good news with the Holy Spirit, the Word of God and this board, we have been able to wrestle scripture, get out of the clouded theology of Every Nation and rest that there is Freedom in Christ, and we uphold CHrist as the HEAD of the church, not man.

Welcome and Feel free to ask questions.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi Hawaii-85
Welcome I agree with Dust, if you can read the threads here. You may find them helpful. I see many similar things from EN as it relates to Maranatha. They are as Dust says more subtle, hide their doctrine more. I would be very careful with my children in this group.}

[hawaii8085]

Thanks, I did read many of the threads, but my eyes started to cross, so I thought I would just sign up and ask.

I knew Katchen quite well, so going to a church where she is the pastors wife isn't something I would be comfortable with on a long term basis. she was a pet project of the leadership at the time, as an umwed mother Tomi Warren made sure she stayed off welfare by setting her up as a co house leader and forcing me to move into the house so I could help pay her bills. Frustrating from my side of things since I was paying over half my income to stay in a house with a yard so the kids could play, I'm sure it wasn't fun from her side either since I was not a good person to have arround kids at the time.
I ran into her a couple of years ago and she introduced her son asking him if he remembered me, I remember half praying, God, I hope not!

Thanks for the heads up! If I do visit friends there I will leave the kids at grandmas!

[jesusisawesome]

Hi Hawaii8085, and welcome to the board.

Regarding your question: "Is the same kind of mind control being used?" I left this ministry before EN, however, I know those in leadership that have been there through every change, from Maranatha to VCF to Morningstar to Every Nation, and have ended up leaving due to the damage that is done to people and the abuse of authority. To quote one of them that has lived under all four names, when it was mentioned that EN is trying to separate itself as having changed from the past: "Give me a break, it's the same thing."

[lc_20]

Hawaii8085,
I left more recently - while I was still in, I brought my two nieces to MSI/EN while they were in town visiting. I dropped them off at the childrens church while I went to the sanctuary with their mother (my sister). I was shocked at what I saw when I went to pick them up. The church was large and there were at least 100 kids in the room. They had taken my two neices and made them the center of attention during the class. By the time I came to get them, the girls were preforming for the group - doing gymnastics moves that were actually dangerous without a spotter. They were also pumped up with candy. They always gave the kids lots of sugar while they were in kids church. When I asked what the lesson was about for the kids that day, it was clear that all eyes had been on love bombing the visitors for the whole meeting. The girls had a great time. They loved being the center of attention for the day and they loved all the free candy. ... But, there were no teachings about Jesus and as we have all learned the love bombing turns to slavery fairly quickly. My worst fear is that these girls will try joining an emotional based group (notice - I did not call them a church) themselves when they get older because of all the love bombing they experienced and they will lose their freedoms to the real motives of the group - preform gymnastics now - wash my car and watch my kids later.

[hawaii8085]

**********
My worst fear is that these girls will try joining an emotional based group themselves when they get older because of all the love bombing they experienced
***********

I wouldn't worry about it. I am seeing a huge move of God in the last 2 years away from church. I thought it was just in my area. I also thought it was just because I had been pushed out of the church I had been an elder in for 5 years. That is not the case. The out of church/home church people (if they were organized into a denomination) just passed up the southern baptists as the largest denomination in america. Barna wrote a book on the phinominon a year or so ago called Revolution. It is an excellent record of believers separating themselves from sin, and therefore the church. In the process of writing the book, Barna himself became an out of church Believer

(note I do not use the word Christian. The name has come to include so many unbiblical activities that I have a hard time calling myself one anymore)

Spiritual abuse is rampant in the church. I remember when I got out I thought all I had to do was get away from maranatha and it would all be better, Arogant, self congratulating, sinful controlling leaders are a cancer in the church.

If I had to guess, It looks to me like the church is being prepared to go underground. Let the blowhards attract all the attention. I am discipling the way it was supposed to be done, parent to child. I spend a lot of time asking my boys what they see in various groups.

Teach the children to hear God, to recognize his presence and see sin and they will get to the point where they see it before you do.

We visited one church where my son ask (about half way through worship) mom, how come everyone sits down when God shows up? My other son wanted to know why no one was talking to God like they knew him.

out of the mouths of babes

[osakadan]

Hey hawaii8085! Hard to believe but I visited the Hawaii "church" while you were there - on the return trip from MLTS '84 in Dallas.

[hawaii8085]

I can't remember if I went to MLTS that year, I probably did, just as an excuse to get more of my stuff mainland, for some reason it was important to me to get out without being excommunicated (and I had to finish my series in international law before transfering to oregon state without losing my housing etc...)

I don't quite know how I did it, I got away with so much that year.

I told my overseer that I was going to spend time alone with my ex fiance while I was mainland for 2 months and she said that was fine as long as I didn't "date in my heart"

I also took a job working evenings so I missed all mid week services that fall.

No one knew I was leaving until 7 days before my flight left. (even the brother who helped me ship all my stuff mainland in creates)

What month were you there?

I just had Dave Barbours sister come up to me at a july homeschool convention I help organize and ask me if she knew me. It was so weird.

I used to love bringing hawaiians to mlts. they always had such great reactions to minor stuff.

One girls name was Jung Shin pronouced junction. we flew to the coast that year and drove the rest of the way to dallas with another church. all the way there every time she saw a highway junction sign she would get so excited and giggle Junction, Junction, that's my name! Oh, and the first time the hawaiians saw the smallest dirtiest patch of snow, the giggling and the pictures! and the successive stops for more pictures everytime the snow got deeper or cleaner! (the girls reactions were even worse)

[osakadan]

Interesting hearing someone else's escape story.

Guess it was in September I was there but the memory has faded a bit. A guy in the military was kind enough to put us up.

[blueboy96]

I just realized that this coming January will mark 10 years since I left the Waymaker/KPIC/Every Nation chamber of horrors. Like I need another reminder that I'm growing old.

[sunshinesaint]

Yay we are free!!!!

[wisedove]

Still!

cheers again!

[genesis_truth]

I am free from feeling like I am doing something wrong when I feel tired and want to spend the night at home relaxing rather than spreading the word with every single person I can find on the street

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Genesis Truth,
Welcome !
Yes, I agree it is good to be free from compulsion. When He gives you and me an open door to share, if that is what the Spirit says...that is freedom indeed. And it is freedom not to share, also. I am glad that you are here.}

[dust]

genesis: I am free from feeling like I am doing something wrong when I feel tired and want to spend the night at home relaxing rather than spreading the word with every single person I can find on the street

Dust: Welcome to the board. And, I'll bet those people are a little more free too, free to find out about Jesus more naturally and inside a relationship instead of being targeted. Well, that is how i felt anyway...I couldn't stand this heavy yoke of growing the church for these guys. They didn't care for the individual, just the outward expression that the "numbers" in the church are like gold stars....that translate to success, not to mention tithes, money from ENLI, Money from MPD, money from the Pastor's School, the Grad School, Marriage Retreats, Prayer and Worship Seminars and soon an Evangelism Seminar. It's a money making machine. And EN gets a cut on everything from the local churches.

Oh I just went too far on this post.

[genesis_truth]

Dust - totally agree with you. My former church was into numbers. Home groups were based upon bringing new people (which in itself is not a bad thing) however the motives were - we need more people so that we can feel like God is working here. Let's take a photo of the people who got "saved" this Sunday morning so we can send it back to head office to show how much we are changing the world! From my experience, I have seen this regularly and then the people who got saved then disappeared off the face of the earth. I believe it is either because they were compelled (ie. "I know there are 2 more people out there wanting to know the Lord") or because they then get greeted with a list of rules and regulations and commands (purple book) rather than being taught the wonder of grace, the miracle of salvation, and to learn how to pray, worhsip in order to grow in the love of God

[dust]

Genesis, I had to ponder a bit on your last statement,

"rather than being taught the wonder of grace, the miracle of salvation, and to learn how to pray, worhsip in order to grow in the love of God"

A newly saved person didn't get to enjoy the JOY of his or her miracle, didn't get guidance in prayer and worship for their own personal growth and get to enjoy the love of God. This is touching me deeply here.

This is bringing me to tears tonight to think about just DISMISSING the beauty and joy of someone coming to the Lord, and getting hung up on putting them through a program, marching them to the book store to get a purple book.

I feel like EN took my positive attribute of my do everything 100% no matter what it is and turned it DARK inside a church. I am sick over this master manipulation.

While you were taking photos, we were fillling out cell group reports with the number of people and emailing on Sunday nights.

At the ministry team retreat in January one year, we had to huddle with our own team and give PROJECTIONS for how many people we would get into our cell groups, just like sales forecasts. It was very distasteful. We all felt very heavy.

[40days40years]

Welcome genesis_truth, about the numbers thing and especially the last 2 paragraphs above in dusts post? Filling out cell group reports and making "sales" projections?

That sounds kind of cultish. ICC which is a non charismatic sheperding type of group is very into submitting reports on how many people were contacted...etc. I do believe ICC is far more abusive then EN but they rely on reports and the arm of the flesh. How do you make a projection on how many people will get saved anyway. In a way those reports are kind of saying were not trusting the Holy Spirit to bring revival. Those cell group reports are controlling because there is an implied commitment to meeting the numbers and ofcourse the leaders are going to try to load you up on your "contact" numbers. What a yoke of bondage and what away to keep people busy and control their activities and time.

[genesis_truth]

Hi 40days40years. Tell me about it. It is a sure way to burn out and losing the ability to trust God rather than my abilities

[dust]

Those cell group reports are controlling because there is an implied commitment to meeting the numbers and ofcourse the leaders are going to try to load you up on your "contact" numbers.

We didn't get contact numbers. We were supposed to FIND the people at our work, in our neighborhood. Do you know how wierd and awkward it is to do this. How it turns into something so creepy.

Evangelism without love is DEAD and creepy.
Evangelism for church growth is DEAD.
Evangelism forced on new believers for gold stars is DEAD.

True evangelism really doesn't need smoke and mirrors, horse and pony shows, purple books, and slickness. It simply requires trusting the Holy Spirit and truly believing in Jesus Christ and love in your heart for people. God has given us these things. And, a REAL bible.

TO THAT, ADD this: Do not witness to people to get them to YOUR church. Let them decide and be led by God to go to the church God leads them to. We are witnessing for the kingdom of God, not the kingdom of man.

[40days40years]

Well when I said this: Those cell group reports are controlling because there is an implied commitment to meeting the numbers and ofcourse the leaders are going to try to load you up on your "contact" numbers. I did not mean they would give you the actual contacts or their phone numbers, addresses...etc. I meant they are going to give you a general idea of numbers of contacts they expect out of you. If they do that then they can pretty much figure out how much time you will have to invest to reach that number of people. Not everybody is a salesman, what happens if you want to be a cell group leader but hate selling? I use to hate going door to door in school as a kid being induced to sell trinkets, raffles, some type of blankathon for a school fund raising function.

Why not just let a cell group develop naturally? I mean pretty soon people are going to figure out which group they want to belong to and which group they don't. With these cell group reports did they try to manage prayer at all? Hopefully not but you figure that prayer may be more beneficial then emphasizing the sales approach.

[genesis_truth]

Hi All, I have just thought of another one. I am free from feeling guilty about not having someone come and stay with my wife and I. I tell you, I was so sick and angry from "leaders" in the church either referring people to me or asking mer to have someone come and stay with us (homestay etc). While this may sound stingy and rude, you have to understand that my wife was either pregnant with the worst pregnancy going around (which the leaders just rubbished and told her to get over) or else we had just had the baby. For example, our daughter was 3 weeks old (and my wife was struggling with post birth mobility problems) when I was approached by a pastor saying that it would be good if I had someone come and stay with us. No details etc. All I knew was that it was a 20 year old boy. I said no and that it wasn't a good time. I distinctly got the impression that I had gone down in this leader's opinion and then was racked with guilt for weeks until I thought, stuff it! I am not obliged to cause upheavel in my house and will not stress my wife and cause a burden on her. From then on I felt so much better!

[dust]

Genesis,

Believe me after one of them just had a baby, they would want someone staying with them, ONLY a girl, who could change diapers and cook and clean.

[ginger1]

Dust, Ever heard of Evangelism by guilt ? They tried that on me during Maranatha times in the Philippines. Yea, I got somebody saved, but I have no joy to it. I don't even remember who it was now, since they are the ones who has to do the follow up.

[genesis_truth]

That is a good one Dust. At our NZ church, they called it gleaning from those who are more established in the Lord.

[dust]

"Gleaning from those more established in the Lord."

That is sheer manipulation. I could never, in good conscience, want someone to do my housework for me and then me think I am benefiting THEM on some spiritual level.

I just wonder when some story is going to break on TV about EN.

[sunshinesaint]

I am free from not having to go to church on New Year's eve and stay up with them all while they play basketball and other American sport games...that I don't know how to play...and then pray in the New Years - in the typical prayer manner..."yes Lord...yes lord" and the louder you pray the better you are!!!

No more of the fake prayers!
Yipee!

May have an early New Years!! and perhaps shout with praise to the Lord 'Thanks' when I wake up.

[genesis_truth]

Awesome stuff Sunshinesaint!!!! I like to be free to chill out on New Years Eve and hang out with my wife and baby daughter without people hassling me to come out to their sports night and leave my family at home!!!

[osakadan]

That is the sad thing, the wholesale imposition of a foreign culture.

Don't get me wrong, I am not an American basher, and even count a few as friendshttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

But, the whole idea of importing these churches is just another form of cultural imperialism.

[genesis_truth]

I do have to admit that a lot of the things they do is as if this is part of America. I also love American things - people and especially the sport but the culture there is different to here in NZ and certain things will not work here

[dust]

Hey hold on there. My husband and I are Americans. And, WE are now FREE to celebrate New Year's Eve without looking at the clock in the nice restaurant and rushing to church for Jim Lafoon's prophecy and pretending we didn't go out somewhere else and pretending we didn't drink any wine.

And we are NOT into American football. And it was a relief to get out of that sports culture church.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[osakadan]

Yeah, American football is for sissies. You gotta try Rugby or Aussie Rules.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

There weren't any sports people in MCM Sydney. That whole jock thing passed us by. Maybe I would have left sooner if the jocks had invaded.

[lc_20]

Dust, I just had memories of praying in the new year with my msi/en church... Everyone was expected to attend. Leaders made great performances of kissing their wives at midnight... the wives were definitely not enjoying it. Then the inner circle would go off to a private party while everyone else was expected to do nothing. In all my msi/en years, I only did that twice. As brainwashed as I was, I new the New Years eve thing was very weird. The years that I didn't go, I had to go through all the questions about what I did, where was I, who was I with... If I mentioned people outside of msi/en such as old college friends, I got definite signals of dissaproval which the rebellious side of me actually enjoyed a little. It is good to be free this New Years.

[maranatha1984]

IC:Everyone was expected to attend. Leaders made great performances of kissing their wives at midnight... the wives were definitely not enjoying it. Then the inner circle would go off to a private party while everyone else was expected to do nothing.
Tikie: This was the same practice at MCM- although few of us were married...I used to hate the praying from 9- midnight- but was alsways afraid to say anything about it...

[lc_20]

Ha... I remember being done with my prayer list by about 9:30 and wondering what I was going to think about for the next 2.5 hours... Some people would group up to pray together, but I would sit alone because I couldn't stand having people praying in tounges at me loudly and repetitively. There were some very dramatic performances - mostly for the attention of the pastors not God - in my opionion. Once I was just sitting by myself and one of the pastors came over to pray for me. I remember feeling so priveleged... it was early on in the love bombing phase... gag. All about man pleasing for everyone involved. I never said anything either. But, my dad had always taught me that in any situation, I always had the option to "vote with my feet" ie. walk away. So, I stopped going to those holiday prayers. Should have walked away from the whole church at the time - figured that out years later. I also joined the church in this once on Christmas eve... even the pastors didn't show up for that. Just an obedient associate pastor. I did ask about the christmas eve prayer once. Someone told me it was very important to the head pastor that we be there. I thought, if it is so important, why isn't the head pastor here. Didn't do that again either.

[maranatha1984]

IC:There were some very dramatic performances - mostly for the attention of the pastors not God

Tikie: Yes...especially the loud groaning and crying and wailing in tongues was in DIRECT violation of what Jesus spoke of about praying in a closet for THE VERY REASONS YOU JUST CITED

[sameo]

"Congratulations to all of us!" for real!!!

Reading your stuff Ic &amp; tikie...makes me wanna puke. YOU guys are nailing EXACTLY how it was. Isn't it interesting NO matter which Maranatha and probably EN, you were at-the story is EXACTLY the same. the MCM procedures.


Nothing could be worse then telling one's biological family or friends "I can't come over and celebrate the New Year..." gotta pray for 6 hours.

This was just another form of control...to keep tabs on us. To hold us there. To test our committment. Today I feel a righteous anger. To see remnants of this cult still IN me....reminds me of just how strong a hold it had. But it also let's me know I can continue to be free...and get more emotionally free.

I AM loving that I can celebrate the New Year MY way, instead of theirs.

SameO

[sameo]

Oh, i think you know this tikkie and Ic...I don't mean YOU guys personally are making me puke..haha just that crap you talk about....UGH! But everytime I read exactly what I also saw....it confirms to ME that it WASN'T just my own weakness or "just MY imagination." I mean, this stuff really happened.

NO LIE.

thanks guys!!

tikkie-you back at work yet?

[genesis_truth]

Don't you just hate the feeling within you of a compulsion to obey these people and the good feeling that you got when they decided to talk with you!!! I now realise how much I hated the way they made me look at them as people to admire not for character but for their position and esteem. It makes me seeth actually. I did not realise how angry I was about this until now!!

[israel_rules]

sunshinesaint,

I wish I was free as you.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif

[genesis_truth]

Hi Israel. Can you tell us your story? If you are able - where you have come from, where you are at etc?

[genesis_truth]

Another thing I am free from - having to fit the pre-requisite mold of what a man should be. I was sick of the way I was always told that a man should be this, this, and this. Look at Rice, I was told. He knows how to be a leader - he has presence (being 6-4 or whatever he was helps I guess). The cloning process was like a machine. The men were told to be strong in the Lord and to take dominion of all we came in contact with so that soon you felt so pressured to try and dominate in times and places where it clearly was not applicable or appropriate that you turned people away from any chance to share with them (yes, share, not recruit, order, and clone).

The ladies were so catty and nasty to one another. It didn't take much for them to take offence and they all seemed to try and outdo each other - best clothes, best nails, best hair etc. Once, when my wife was on staff at the start, they took her to a mall and bought her "nice" clothes to wear. At the time she thought this was nice of them but now we realise that they thought she wasn't good enough they way she was and so they tried to "flash" her up so that she looked nice.

[genesis_truth]

Once the pastor's wife was quoted as saying, come to NZ to be a missionary. It is great because you can do it without getting your hands dirty! Oh what a sweet heart for the Lord - not!!! I would love for her to wander the streets of India or Bangladesh ministering to the people there. But wait, that won't happen because that is not her "calling".

I am glad that I have left behind the people who are more concerned about the condition of their nails look rather than the condition of society and the unsaved!!

[osakadan]

That truly is despicable, and hurt my stomache when I read that.

I don't expect people in ministry to be blameless and above making mistakes but that is so cynical. Reminds me of dirty politicians.

[robert_unknown]

genesis... a friend of mine (with also EN background) married to another european country and wórks for a mission ministry. its a typical mission ministry, and its wonderfull. they work for poor and underpriviledget people in guinea, brasilia,---... they build places for street kids to get educated...

the interesting thing is - when i compare how EN understand mission, and how clasical mission ministries see it - many EN missionaires are more concerned for themselves than for other. who serves ME (who cooks for me, who pays for me, who helpes me with the kids...) in exchange for this they get engaged in church-ministries like worship, cellgroups, etc that other local churchmembers also could do.

Do make it clear. i have met WINDERFULL people who served as missisonaires here in europe as well. people who are loving and full of compasion for others. people who we have become dear and good friends with, and who i deeply love and apprechiate.

so what i say is of course NOT valid for everyone who is out on the missionsfield for EN.

but i have also - unfortunately not very seldom - seen the other missionaires. the guys who need others to serve them, so that they can do the work local people should/ could do in church.

the thing is: the top leaders in EN set such a bad example. they live in expensive mansons, take absurd high salaries, live in expensive hotels at conferences (for nearly NO performance, and for weak sermons). they are so arrogant that they cannot greet ushers, who serve them for free in their sparetime. they are so prepotent, that they think that their presence is already a blessing for others (*sigh*)...

thats the problem.

and within EN you dont even KNOW that there are other churches and ministries serving in underpriviledget regions of the world...

in EN everything is theoreticaly. its all about teaching and preaching and praying, and hard missionwork, like building schools, serving the poor, etc gets ignored or overseen.

this has to do with the mindset EN has about "mission". Mission in EN is dominion.

i deeply regret it, that i have not spend my years as a minister in afrika or southamerica fir /with a solid mission work.

[dust]

Robert: in EN everything is theoreticaly. its all about teaching and preaching and praying, and hard missionwork, like building schools, serving the poor, etc gets ignored or overseen.

Dust: Here's my question now when I hear about all these BIG VISIONS to take the world, take the city, etc. It's simple:

Who do you love?
Who do personally lead to the Lord and tarry with?
Who do you serve?
How have you served them?
What do you sacrifice for them?
What do you know about THEM?
How do you show your love to them?
What are THEIR dreams?
What do you love about them?
How have THEY made You a better person?
How have THEY enriched your life with the love of Christ?
Did they have to pay you back with "gleaning" duty, with church duty, with new disciples or with favors?

[out_of_hiding]

If I may reiterate from another post-

Amen Dust!!!!!!!!!

[genesis_truth]

Another interesting thing is that when MSI first came to NZ they rented a house here. This house was a huge, tudor mansion on a large piece of land. This is what initially had me concerned about them but stupid me put that aside until recently and when I read Robert's post above which referred to expensive mansions.

Anyway, my friend rented the place to them and they rented it for over $1000 per week (NZ Dollars) which is an incredible amount here. They could have easily (at the time) rented a good sized home for about $250 per week!

Consider this, if they had paid $250 they could have had about $39,000 extra a year for ministry-related work!!! What a filthy waste!!! Since then they have bought and sold several times (all ridiculously expensive homes - including a farm).

Now what irritates me is that they so often ask for faith offerings to bless visitors and to pay for property or maintenance etc. Maybe if they had been more prudent at the start they would not be asking for this all the time. Maybe if they all lived in normal (less flash neighbourhoods) they would have more money to put into their "ministry". The money from the states is wasted on these people and what they use it for - huge cars, expensive flash houses. Particularly when the majority of the church is made up of poorer people who must feel horrible when looking at these leaders living the high-life.

I used to look at these guys (as bad as this is going to sound) and think that I wanted to be a pastor because it looked like such a good, bountiful (material speaking) life. That makes me sad and ashamed that I used to think like that. I never did when I was first saved (outside of EN).

My friend once said - I don't mind if they have expensive cars or big houses as long as they also give the same to the church because we wouldn't want people thinking they were exploiting the people tithing for their "ministry".

[dust]

Another interesting thing is that when MSI first came to NZ they rented a house here. This house was a huge, tudor mansion on a large piece of land.

Genesis, THIS is the HOME that SHE had DREAMS of, down to the window, the patterns, everything. She gave the women a full SERMON on how God had blessed her when she came back to visit the states. She was invited to be the guest speaker for Ladies' night. I thought I was out of my mind. People brought guests to get ministered to, etc. and the whole hour was her descriptions of the above tudor mansion. That was the entire sermon!

Now, WHY didn't I leave then? I was so new to the area and I told myself, "it's a fluke."

[genesis_truth]

I do not know if it was God who blessed them http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[genesis_truth]

I am free from sticking up for EN when they screw up and scandal is uncovered - "that is just the enemy wipping up foes to come against God's annointed people and those actually doing the work of Jesus". How arrogant and blind was I??

[sixto_sabrosso]

Greetings to all who've read my entries, and especially to those who where "there" during those crucial years of our lives. Hey, it's 2007! I for one am so much relieved from the mental anguish my family and I endured during those MCM/MSI/EN/xyz years. After finding this site, I was able to get the last few remnants off my chest. When I look back I realize that I only bought into the MCM culture on a marginal basis. My family was way too important to me. I never placed MCM before my wife and children. It's of no wonder that phil bonasso asked me to leave 3X's. ha! ha! ha! I write this as if it were a badge of HONOR! ha! ha!

So, it's time for me to bury the hatchet and not hold on to ancient grudges, as I've previously stated. Hey, our lives are way to short to devote so much precious time to an organization that was established to serve the needs of the "elders" and it's cultish ways. I chose to cast that behind me...and to look forward to the future with a smile. I honestly believe that the best years of my life are ahead of me despite my 40+ years of life.

May your lives be filled with goodness until the day we all meet in Heaven! Ciao!

Muito obrigaddo!!!

Sixto Sabrosso

[40days40years]

Say it aint so Sixto don't go.

[robert_unknown]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Now what irritates me is that they so often ask for faith offerings to bless visitors and to pay for property or maintenance etc. Maybe if they had been more prudent at the start they would not be asking for this all the time. Maybe if they all lived in normal (less flash neighbourhoods) they would have more money to put into their "ministry". The money from the states is wasted on these people and what they use it for - huge cars, expensive flash houses. Particularly when the majority of the church is made up of poorer people who must feel horrible when looking at these leaders living the high-life. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

now - thats the same with the Morris family. they come to our church and ask for money. they tell us sad and heartbreaking stories about how they cannot buy milk for the kids or go to the dentist with the daughter, because they lack so much in their mission.
But then you realize that Mr Morris lives in a big house in an expensive suburb of Sydney. The you realize that he raises money in every church where he goes. that he is out for dinner with the beatyfull and the rich in sydney... (tahts the things HE shares - btw!)

hey - why do I need to give my hard earned money to such a hoax?

the thing that disturbs me very much in EN is, that EN provides an environement for such people who can live on the expense of others.

if he cannot by milk for his daughter its HIS responsabilty. why not move to a more humble place, and save money? why not work a normal secular work with honest and regular income?

[osakadan]

Not attacking you Robert but I think we have to be careful here about the things we say.

Does Morris really live in an expensive suburb? Or is it that most suburbs in Sydney are expensive now? The only cheap ones are those in the outer western suburbs and these are far from anywhere.

My brother's home in a middle-class suburb, nowhere near the beach, and only 3 bedroom one bath, is now worth over a million $AUD. It was bought for $300,000 about 15 years ago.

And that he socialises with the beautiful and the rich in Sydney? Really? There has been nothing more than heresay.

[robert_unknown]

the "hearsay" comes from him personally. i am just quoting what he tells people and what he tells people and from stage here when he is on a visit.

but of course we must be carefull. but only to give you some background. i was part of his church in austria since the beginning and i know many people who was on board personaly. we know him and how he deals with people and with finances. its - like in many chruches - inmoral. it led people who were in eldership or in responsability for the finances to leave the church...

my point is however not talk about the Morris. I am just concerned about an environement like EN, that makes it easy for people to controle, absue and manipulate people and finances, the way like it is happening in EN. Thats my concern.

Everyone must stand before God by himself one day. But its a pitty that many honest and faithfull people get sucked into this cult-like environement and get mentally and spiritually damaged.


(Message edited by robert_unknown on January 10, 2007)

[sunshinesaint]

I am FREE from Champ Talks and having someone having a HOLD over my life.
I am free to be set free by Christ!

I am free from being spun into a web by manipulators.

I am free from being told I have an independent spirit and am in rebellion because I seek out the TRUTH.

[genesis_truth]

I am free from wondering if the leaders or other busy-bodies in the church are talking behind my back (I know they are now - good for them). I am sick of the way people in the inner circle (who are supposed to be mature, solid people) gossip and have no idea about real life.

I am free from hoping that someone want think and talk of me like I saw them talk about others - the person is not right with God because they are doing this and that - we should be careful of them.

I am free because I don't give a stuff anymore. Previously an attitude like this would have had me sitting back thinking I had a independant and rebellious spirit. I would have beat myself up and pleaded for hours with God to cleanse me of this evil. What a sucker I was!

Go God! I am free indeed!!!!

[ginger1]

Ain't it funny, People in the church compete to be part of the "inner circle" and at first people thought this is about how holy their lives are or what God would be saying to them and how they live, when it gets down to the real truth, The inner circle is about Gossiping and Backstabbing church members back.

[osakadan]

double post

(Message edited by osakadan on January 18, 2007)

[osakadan]

It is so sad to hear that Ginger. I was very lucky that I never experienced that. For all the faults of MCM and the Sydney chapter, it didn't really happen. It was much more like family (and I wanted to punch some of them like my real family). I guess I was part of the inner circle to some degree. Or maybe cool circle is more accurate. But it was never about gossiping. Just about fellowship and enjoying each others company, along with implementing some crazy plan of our "evangelist".

Can you believe we had a campaign called "Rice is Life". Sounds sacriligous in hindsight.