Exposure of the Coverup of Paul Danielbs Adultery

[speakword2004]

http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=abusive&action=display&thread=1156 407556

Today a document outlining a call for repentance to the leadership and members of His People Church has been posted as above. It exposes the cover-up around the Paul Daniel scandal which was first made public in 2003 and shows that there was a problem long before that and the church was kept in the dark by the leaders of His People and Every Nation regarding this.

[speakword2004]

The following articles are posted:

COVER-UP OF PAUL DANIEL ADULTERY 1993-2006
http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=abusive&action=display&thread=1156 407556

WHY MUST AN ADULTEROUS ELDER LOSE OFFICE?
http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?
board=abusive&action=display&thread=1144675734

HOW ORGANISATIONS SHOULD REPENT BIBLICALLY
http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=abusive&action=display&thread=1146 572014

WHY WE SHOULD NOT COVER UP SCANDAL
http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=abusive&action=display&thread=1146 820045

SHOULD WE FOLLOW ABUSIVE LEADERS?
-IS IT BIBLICAL TO SUBMIT BLINDLY TO CHURCH AUTHORITY?
-HOW DOES ONE IDENTIFY ABUSIVE LEADERS?
-WE MUST OBEY LEGITIMATE CHURCH AUTHORITY
-PREPARE FOR PERSECUTION

http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=abusive&action=display&thread=1144 675412

[robert_unknown]

well, what shall I say. Thank You for providing us with this delecate facts. It saddens me, that there has been already something in 1993 and that it has been covered up.

No wonder that everything went down finaly.

[ginger1]

Its the cover up that is more upsetting than the adulterous affair. A lot of EN sins would not have continue on . Its people , these EN leaders who are more concerned about money coming , their salary, they are concerned about . Its not God's business they are concerned about, its Money . Anytime A cashflow is threatened, they will do a cover-up. Its a lot more hellish attitude than the adulterous affair, I think.

[philiprosenthal]

I think this is extremely strong evidence for the existence of a wicked sociological cult of compromised leaders existing within His People/EveryNation - although it would be unfair to pin this label on all the leaders. The question is whether other decent leaders will have the guts to clean out this cult. The other question is "What else are they hiding?" I think that all members need to demand full disclosure, full repentance, disciplinary action and an end to the no-talk rule. Answering of questions and reform to stop such abominations happening again.

[ginger1]

The coruptions exist from the US to Africa to the Philippines. What we know now, its Worldwide. I won't be surprised there are more corruption that has been hidden and will soon be exposed in the future.

one thing for sure though, There is NO HONOR AMONG THIEVES. They are all doing it . Because of the Cover-Up, these corrupt Pastors think they are the only ones doing it. They do it Secretly. Only in Factnet that they are all exposed , its ALL of THEM. ITs in their Spiritual DNA. Not just control and abuse but also Corruption .

[philiprosenthal]

No. Sorry Ginger. I don't think that's entirely fair. There are maybe a thousand or more full time workers in EveryNation denomination. I don't think they are all dishonest. As far as I am aware, the majority are honest ministers who just want to serve Christ, but they get deceived and intimidated by those who form part of the sociological cult. New people are joining the ministry teams all the time. They are not corrupt when they join, but if they allow themselves to be mentored by the wrong people, then they risk being corrupted. I think the situation is similar to that of modernism/liberalism in the mainline denominations. People join the ministry full of zeal to serve God, but after a few years of indoctrination with unbelief, they become confused and compromised.

Read this link to see how people get corrupted from wanting to serve the Lord to becoming hypocritical and abusive:
http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=doctrine&action=display&thread=115 2000403
One of the reasons I am exposing this is that I don't want any more good ministers going down this evil road. Good ministers must turn around and tell the Pharisees to repent.

[philiprosenthal]

FACTNET THREADS ON THE COVERUP AND LEADERS INVOLVED

General discussion on the cover-up
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/23745.html?1156563679

Bill Bennot now appears to be overseeing EveryNation churches in Africa
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21844.html?1152276428

Gareth Stead
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/22666.html?1156564885

Michael Swain as administrator of His People Cape Town and now administrator in Nashville. He has refused to answer questions on the scandal so we don't know for sure whether and how long he was involved.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21845.html?1156533358

General discussion on His People South Africa
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/22655.html?1155199753

His People Cape Town
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21846.html?1150899829

His People Johannesburg
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21847.html?1153134981

His People hypocrisy and paralysis on abortion (now understandable in view of above scandal)
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/22667.html?1153396587

Discussion on EveryNation excuses to cover-up scandal
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/23230.html?1154888929

Discussion on why an aulterous elder should lose his position
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/23285.html?1155731915

Religious elitism - does it cause AIDS (Aquired Integrity Deficiency Syndrome)
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/22820.html?1154089529

[philiprosenthal]

There has been some interesting discussion on the Bill Bennot thread.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21844.html?1156614828

40years asks whether if His People had heartfelt repentance for its sins, would revival return?
My first answer is yes. By definition that would be revival in my understanding and I would expect God to respond with mercy.
My second answer though, is that we reap what we sow and a lot of bad spiritual seed has been sown in the past decade. It is going to take a long time to sort out the mess, and His People will probably suffer the consequences of its sins for many years to come.

It is going to take a long time for example for leaders badly mentored by Paul Daniel and his henchmen to unlearn their hyper-authoritarian behaviour patterns. It is going to need structural reform to make it harder for abusive leaders to operate. I don't expect an instant return to paradise.

The longer though that His People postpones serious repentance, the more good people are going to leave and the fewer there will be left to help rebuild the movement on Godly lines. Also, God's patience may run out with the movement.

Whether the Cape Town church itself will survive in its present form - I don't know. Whether the American EveryNation denomination will survive in its present form - I don't know either. I don't think that is really the main issue anyway. The issue is whether we are being obedient to God and doing things the way the Bible commands.

In some form or other, however the people in the movement are going to carry on in some or other form of christian grouping. And my concern is that we take the good from His People /EveryNation and not the bad. And hopefully we learn to tell the difference.

[40days40years]

You know here is a thought and I chose to respond on this thread but the SA thread would have worked also. Maybe this deserves a thread of its own but I will let philip do that if he so desires.

This is cynical but EN is in the business of taking over churches. If you want to take over a church can you think of a better plan then to get Paul Daniel to join EN? Rice must have known about the earlier sin of Paul Daniel that philip says was covered up. Look here is the thing, you could get His People to join EN then when the opportune time arises you could blow Paul Daniel out of the water by exposing that sin and then take over His People lock, stock and barrel. It's perfect. The best scenario for EN would be cover up Pauls sin, have His People join EN and then wait for Paul Daniel to fall into sin again and then boom His People falls completely into EN's orbit of control in the States.

If His People congregants had no idea of Paul Daniels sin what a perfect lever of control to have over him. You see if Paul Daniel had been clean the danger would be that in the future he might get disillusioned with EN and pull out of EN all together like the folks in Louisiana did, once Paul joined EN he could not do that if the congregation did not know about the earlier affair. EN in the states would have that rabbit to pull out of its hat if Paul tried to leave.

This is a perfect machiavellian plan. Just wait for Paul Daniel to sin and then boom swoop in or if he does'nt sin? sometime in the future if he is not playing ball let his former sin slip out in SA. It is perfect insurance to keep His People in line. In the back of the mind of Rice he must have known this. Like I said brilliant.

Philip in Maranatha a Paul Daniel coverup for a sin like he did would most likely not have happened I can see why that thing should have been exposed but it worked in EN's favor in the states to keep it quiet. Did Rice know about the earlier indiscretion of PD in the early 90's and when did he know about it?

His People congregation is locked in, Every Nation - Bonasso/Broocks win big time a guaranteed win. Wow their good. Ofcourse maybe it was not planned this way and it just happened.

(Message edited by 40days40years on August 26, 2006)

[40days40years]

Questions for philip or speakw. How could this affair be covered up without the truth coming out fairly quickly? The first affair took place in 92/93 and the woman got around to telling a pastor at another church in 96 who then brought the IFCC (Independent Federation of Christian Churches) in for disciplining PD. How could his affair been kept a secret from the congregation if outsiders from the IFCC were brought in? I mean would'nt the word of his affair spred to pastors at His People and then to the congregation? I don't live in South Africa but if Paul Daniel threatened to withdraw from the IFCC why did'nt they threaten to go directly to the congregation or are there laws against that in SA? Was the IFCC afraid of being sued or afraid of losing donations from HP?. Why did this thing take so long and why was IFCC disclosure so weak that Paul Daniel was able to hoodwink a few pastors with the "it was only a kiss lie" three years later in 99?

It just seems amazing that this thing could be hidden after 1996 when the IFCC got involved. Any theories? Are you guys sure the congregation was in the dark at this time in 96?

A few more questions. When did Bill Bennot find out about this earlier affair? Do you think Rice was informed about it from him at the time? What year did his people join EN? When HP did join EN was the congregation still in the dark about the first affair.

thanks guys.

[ginger1]

40/40 its the same question that we have been asking for EN. How can this misuse of funds, embezzlement , fraud has been able to kept hidden for over ten years ? The same thing with Phil Bonasso, his embezzlement ,how can this kept hidden for over twenty years ?
why did it took so long to uncover this ?

Who are the people who did the cover up during Phil Bonasso's reign of terror ?

[40days40years]

More questions: why did Pauld Daniel join EN? You figure Paul Daniel knew that he could be removed from His People but it would not be easy. He got away hoodwinking some of his pastors three years after the IFCC exposed him privately. EN can be pretty rough and tumble why join a group that could remove you especially when the congregation does not know about your affair? Paul Daniel got away with his sin the first time but doing the same thing over again a decade later just seems crazy and self destructive from a common sense point of view. This is a little like when Jim Baker brought in Jerry Falwell after he sinned.

After Paul Daniel fell into adultries again and was removed was he then transferred to Nashville to live? Is that how it went down it does not make sense since this was his second offense and his ministry would be over for sure. Could it be that the big EN boa felt more comfortable with PD in America so it could swallow its meal in peace and not worry about PD starting his own church? Any thoughts on this philip.

[40days40years]

Yeah it is crazy Ginger. I understand that the leaders feel entitled to $$$$$ but this cover up stuff about PDs behaviour seems strange even by EN standards.

If anyone is reading this thread you might want to go over to the leader section and check out the Bill Bennot thread to get some perspective about what is being talked about here and then read this (http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=abusive&action=display&thread=1156 407556).

(Message edited by 40days40years on August 26, 2006)

[40days40years]

Well I guess the obvious reason to cover something like this up philip would be to prevent losing revenue and tarnishing the ministries reputation. If you kept PD then people like you would quit or reduce their giving and if you got rid of a loved PD then other people would also quit and stop giving. Either way it is lose, lose for the people getting their salaries from that ministry. No one wants to take a pay cut.

And I guess I could see why philip would be so ticked off about it because he ended up giving to something for years that if he had known about the pastors sin and the ministry deciding not to remove Paul Daniel? If he had known he might have stopped giving to this ministry or possibly saved himself a lot of grief by going somewhere else. I do think His People owes people like philip an apology because this is like fraud and it is having people give under false pretenses.

(Message edited by 40days40years on August 26, 2006)

[philiprosenthal]

40years. You ask a number of interesting questions.

1) How could this thing get covered up by the IFCC?

I am also upset about this. I have asked Ray McCauley, the head of the denomination for an apology. It has not been forthcoming. The current administrator of the IFCC was not in office at the time. The public relations man said he didn't know the detail at the time.

Why not contact them and ask them yourself. I think an apology is owed and I think it would help for others to ask for it. Especially, we don't want them to do something like this again.
http://www.rhema.co.za/ifcc_contact.html

With regard to the prosecuting pastor (who was not IFCC), he was threatened with a lawsuit to get him to back off (just like now). I think basically he is a nice guy who was out-manouvred by a group of people ten times more manipulative than anyone he had ever met before. I can't speak for him but I get the impression after about a year of bothering the His People elite he just got sick of dealing with His People. Personally I feel he made a mistake by trying to deal with the elite in the first place and if should have gone to the congregation, but he tried hard and I think we should forgive his mistake.

Regards why Ray McCauley and why he didn't expose Paul and why he won't apologise now. Well why not ask him? I personally don't have the energy for a fight with the IFCC as well as His People. I don't feel they are my responsibility to sort out, but Ray McCauley's and his church have problems of their own.

Ray McCauley's excuse was that that IFCC constitution didn't empower him to do discipline. I don't accept that excuse, because I say the Bible empowers him to do discipline via 1 Timothy 5:20. i.e. Publicly rebuke the sinning elder. Then we would have heard about it and then we would have kicked Paul out in no time.

Regards whether the IFCC may have been motivated by money in the cover up. No. The IFCC is quite a different organisation to EveryNation. It doesn't collect tithes from member churches. Basically, the biggest church in the denomination (which is Ray McCauley's church) seems to pick up most of the denominational admin costs. He has no shortage of cash. His People to the best of my knowledge made no significant contribution.

With regard to whether His People leaders may have been motivating by money in the cover up. Yes. Paul Daniel was our best and only good fundraiser. In 1996, the church was rolling in spare cash. It had just jumped from a tiny poor student movement to probably the wealthiest church in the city. Nevertheless, I am told that Paul Daniel was the only pastor who got a serious slice of this cash. But the cash was being used to fund the ministry activities and their salaries. Had they exposed Paul they would have lost cash and had to seriously cut back on their activities. But Paul was also someone with leadership ability 10x more than anyone else in ministry. He had the vision and ability to make things happen. The rest did not.

[philiprosenthal]

I respond to 40 years question on 'Why did Paul Daniel join EveryNation at.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/23830.html

This is a big issue - lets keep it on a separate thread.

[robert_unknown]

"his is cynical but EN is in the business of taking over churches. If you want to take over a church can you think of a better plan then to get Paul Daniel to join EN? Rice must have known about the earlier sin of Paul Daniel that philip says was covered up. Look here is the thing, you could get His People to join EN then when the opportune time arises you could blow Paul Daniel out of the water by exposing that sin and then take over His People lock, stock and barrel. It's perfect. The best scenario for EN would be cover up Pauls sin, have His People join EN and then wait for Paul Daniel to fall into sin again and then boom His People falls completely into EN's orbit of control in the States. "

I think Paul Daniel was very aware of the potential in him of commiting the same thing again. I think he joined EN out of honest concern and honest feelings of need for other man standing around him and helping him to overcome. I think he understood very well, that it is not healthy that he carries this responsability of a fast growing chuch movement.

what EN did oder did not: they did NOT help him to overcome this things. brooks is NOT the right guy to handle such situations properly. Nor is Mister "False-propheties-Yoda" Laffon, nor Mister Phil "Skywalker" Bonasso.

EN promised us so many things, and all of it was just blank lies and false promises. There zeal is NOT helping people. Their zeal is to take over other churches because of carnal motivations!

This does not excuse Pauls sin or how bad this was handled by the Capetown church.

But in my opinion Paul better would have taken the opportunity in 1996 instead of giving his whole movemnt over to a bunch of greedy and evil cultists!

The problem is however, if you are already brainwashed by elitism and if you are already involved in a personal cult, you dont recognize another personal cult anymore.

therefore it was possible that we all got deceived by this false apostles. They took advantage over the situation and stole the church from God.

We pastors have however NEVER been asked personaly or in written form, what we think about the whole thing. I mean we have been INDEPENDENT churches. HP International was just a roof-organisation. Legaly they would have needed to get our agreement to join EN.

Look at the fruit of ENs "blessed" influence on HisPeople?

HP Capetown shrinked from 7500 members to 2000.
HP Europe has lost some churches, others are shrinking continually and have already droped in size by about 50%!

Maxwell wrote one interesting thing in one of his books. I dont remember word by word, but will try to quote it as good as possible:

"You can ly about your real beeing to some persons for a short amount of time. But you never can cover up a lack of charakter/ integrity for ALL people for all of your lifetime"

With one short word: if something is wrong people will find out. THANK GOD FOR THIS!

Beware false aspostles of EN! the people WILL discover your rotten flesh. And the WILL react! No matter how much you try to cover up.

So better you repepent NOW and REAL!


(Message edited by robert_unknown on August 27, 2006)

[40days40years]

philip when did you find out about Paul Daniels first covered up affair? It sounds like you had contacted Bill Bennot and was satisfied by his original explanation once upon a time that Paul Daniels earlier problems had been dealt with in a Godly way? One more question: when did you reject Bill Bennets explanation to you about the situation? I guess I can understand what happened to PD after reading what Robert_unknown posted, that many young women were giddy with adoration toward Paul Daniel, he obviously could not handle the temptation.

12,000 members on campus what a move of God nothing like that happened in Maranatha at least in the states. I am sure God answered intercessors prayers but it also sounds like His People was a sovereign move of God to help raise up Christians to prevent and influence South Africa from going down the wrong path like you see in Zibabwe/Rhodesia. Maybe God had more motivation to move in a big way then he had with MCM in the States?

Like I said before Paul Daniel's ability to take His People lock, stock and barrell into Every Nation without clearing it with the congregations and leaders, no debates, no voting on it?, that seems unnatural. That type of stuff could happen in Maranatha or the ICC though.

[robert_unknown]

"Like I said before Paul Daniel's ability to take His People lock, stock and barrell into Every Nation without clearing it with the congregations and leaders, no debates, no voting on it?"

I do not know if they have discussed this in Southafrica. When I was talking with Paul one time about it, I got the impression, that teir was some pressure, to join MSI came rather from some of the Pastors of HisPeople than by PD himself. Or at least they pushed him very strongly into this direction. He mentioned some Southafrican pastors in this context.
I do know also that in Europe a very strong influence/ preassure on this decision came from Morris and Eckleben, and as I stated sometime earlier in this forum, I have my doubts about the pureness of their motives behind it.

But - and thats crucial - I know that many many pastors, like myself and others who lead smaller churches in Europe (well - we had 80 to 120 members in our "small" churches, others had less), have NEVER been involved in the decission making progress! they always took it for granted, that we join MSI.

[robert_unknown]

what i want to say. i never got the impression, that we have a real choice to NOT join MSI.

there was no formal meeting or questioning before this decision.

of course there was talk behind the scenes, but i never think hat we had an option to say no.

normaly every pastor should have been asked, and every pastor should then have asked his churchleaders, elders and of course the congregation wheter to join MSI or not.

this means that MSI and PD also should have provided us with ENOUGH informations about MSI to get a picture about their past and their presence.

ALL MSI told us was nothing else than MUCH self-advertising, much exageration and the typical holywood-starmania-thing that the guys love to use.

If I would have known then what I now know, and if I would have had the option to discuss this with my church (the church I have build together with locals from scratch!!) then we would seriously have decided AGAINST MSI.

In fact i have lost half of the church later, because i introduced the foolish purple book into the church and because I said that we walk the way with MSI, and I didnt care if the congregants liked it or not.

Within 2 months half of the church left!

This people was called "fallout"!

Thanks to MSI for ther fascistic view on people and for their incredible cover up right from beginning...

ARGh - i have to stop now.

[philiprosenthal]

40days
1) I found out about the affair in 2004, after Paul had been kicked out. I immediately started investigating and challenging all the people allegedly involved. I was never satisfied with Bill Bennot's explanation. It seems other leaders in His People knew about it much earlier than me, but in some cases they may have not been told the whole story. After I had investigated, I challenged the various His People leaders involved to repent, plus the current leadership. I have been involved in a continuous process of investigating and challenging since that time till now. A number of other leaders have been involved in the process. It would have been best for His People/EveryNation to tell the truth themselves, but they sadly rejected every attempt I made to persuade them to do this - and responded rather with attempts to discredit and manipulate me and others involved in the process. It has been rather painful and stressful. The only response I got from EveryNation apostolic board was a request from Phil Bonasso's administrator asking me to resend my fax because he couldn't read some of it. The various leaders wouldn't even return my phone calls or reply to my letters. I am still waiting for them to do so.

2) Yes there were lots of young women giddy with adoration for Paul Daniel. But that happens to most leaders with a lot of charisma. If a man can't resist that temptation then he shouldn't be in ministry. Sadly I think a lot of people of both sexes idolised Paul Daniel. In the case of some women, that idolatry can turn to romantic attraction. It must be called what it is - idolatry.

[philiprosenthal]

3) Yes. The whole ability of Paul to take His People into EveryNation without voting or consultation was a big mistake in reterospect. We didn't care too much at the time because EveryNation didn't have any influence on His People until Paul Daniel left. He was a buffer for us. But when he left, then people started asking questions as to why these other people could run the show. Those who opposed mostly got kicked out or left voluntarily. In 2003 was when the takeover really happened. At the time then, His People was in a crisis and MorningStar seemed to be saving us from the crisis - so most of us were rather grateful for their intervention. They got a lot of credibility for kicking out Paul Daniel. A lot of us knew he was off the rails with abusive behaviour for a while before that although we didn't know about his adultery, so we were very pleased to see him gone. Rice Broocks told us he had the same experience with Bob Weiner - so we felt he understood our problems. It took about another year to realise that EveryNation had its own problems.

His People was always a bit autocratic, as many fast growing new organisations tend to be. But I think after the first affair it progressively made the transition from 'a bit autocratic' to cultish. Paul built up a personality cult of people who idolised him and would answer his every whim - and demoted all the leaders who might challenge him. Result was that by the time he joined His People to MorningStar he had built massive defences around him. Most of that personality cult seems to have now sadly transferred loyalty to Rice Broocks. I say such people must repent of their idolatry and return to Jesus. Some though have had enough of elitist abusive leadership and want more balanced church government.

Remember we were young and naive when His Peoples governance structure was formed. We swallowed what we were told that certain people were anointed by God to lead and one should just let them do what God was saying. That whole theory breaks down however when the leader is a fraud. That is why I and many others had to do a lot of hard thinking and read up on church governance and ask other denominations and churches how they did things - so we had to change our views. My views started changing in 2001, when I saw things going crazy and double standards etc. That is why I have written so many articles on church governance to try help reform the movement. The shocking reality is that His People's method of church governance was invented by an adulterer to cover up his adultery. It is not from the Bible.

Please read them and give your comments at:
http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=abusive

I am hoping the exposure of this information will motivate others in EveryNation to force a change of church governance to stop such autocracy happening again.

[40days40years]

robert: what i want to say. i never got the impression, that we have a real choice to NOT join MSI.

40: join the club Robert that is Maranatha, close this church, open that one, move this one, consolidate this one. Have Rice Broocks pop up or Bob and tell you what the plan is for your local church, no input from the congregation what so ever.

robert: I do not know if they have discussed this in Southafrica. When I was talking with Paul one time about it, I got the impression, that teir was some pressure, to join MSI came rather from some of the Pastors of HisPeople than by PD himself. Or at least they pushed him very strongly into this direction. He mentioned some Southafrican pastors in this context.
I do know also that in Europe a very strong influence/ preassure on this decision came from Morris and Eckleben, and as I stated sometime earlier in this forum, I have my doubts about the pureness of their motives behind it.

40: some of those pastors are going to be in Bill Bennots camp but Paul Daniel is shrewed. He knew you had reservations so maybe he played the pawn. Yeah robert I agree but I was under pressure, blah, blah, blah I had no choice. I "40" am not saying it went down like that but it would be easy for Paul to play you like that.

philip, you found out in 2004 about the 92/93 affair? That is pathetic. You said: Those who opposed mostly got kicked out or left voluntarily. In 2003 was when the takeover really happened. At the time then, His People was in a crisis and MorningStar seemed to be saving us from the crisis - so most of us were rather grateful for their intervention.

40/40: I don't know man it sounds like you guys got played. Bob Weiner should be proud of his disciples!

[philiprosenthal]

40 years. I must stress that I did not just sit idly on this information. I was involved in a continuous process to try to deal with it since then in the least damaging way possible.

i. First there were several months in which I investigated and clarified the facts from multiple sources.
ii. Then several months of confrontation with the His People leadership, plus informing the Manila, Nashville and Los Angeles offices of EveryNation. No response.
iii. Confrontation of His People leaders with other church leaders. The result was they firstly tried to get me to agree to do what the other leaders said - accusing me of being unaccountable if I did not. Then they secretly threatened the other church leaders with legal action unless they silenced me. It took me another year to find this out.
iv. During this period, I was bound by my promise - otherwise they could have accused me of breaching process and being unaccountable. Then earlier this year, the other leaders released me from my silence agreement.
v. Then once ungagged, with the handover to Steve Murrell, I tried to get him to deal with it, but got no response. I have no quarrel with Murrell, but I would like him to respond.
vi. I then spent several months posting information on FactNet and Reformation station that I felt would help direct the reaction to the scandal in a constructive rather than a destructive direction - so it would hopefully lead to reform and healing rather than just a cynical exodus. Also much time praying for the denomination together with others.
vii. Attempts to get a meeting with Paul Daniel to get him to repent himself. (Still waiting).
viii. Now finally I go public.

Now my request to those who read this. Please don't just treat this like the latest soap opera scandal - I don't want to just provide sordid entertainment as an alternative to TV. Please rather respond in prayer to ask for God's mercy on this organisation and as you have influence in whatever way to work towards reform and repentance to stop a recurrence of this. Your posting of constructive suggestions for reform can be one part of this. But please seek God also.

That is the difference between a surgeon operating with a scalpel to heal and an abusive gangster who just stabs with a knife. Both cut, but one is trying to heal. The other is trying to hurt. I hope leaders in EveryNation who read this will understand from the above record that while I hurt the organisation now, I am trying to cut like a surgeon and not like a gangster.

I also hope others will not use this board as a first resort to air their greviences against leaders in EveryNation, but rather will go to them first as I did and try confront them according to Matthew 18 process. Yes, it is much tougher that way, but that is what Christ commanded us. I don't want people to use this scandal as an excuse to declare an 'open season' to attack EveryNation leaders. Many of them are my friends. We need reform and healing - not just a civil war.

[40days40years]

I thought Paul Daniel did repent. By EN standards that written repentance I read was very honest at pointing out problems in the church at large and with himself I thought. PD is gone I guess I could understand that he thought it was enough and over? His confession of sins is a lot more then you will get from most people philip.

As far as the discipling trick how is that possible? So if I want to shut you up I get you to commit to a discipler then I threaten the discipler with discipline or a law suit if they don't keep you quiet? No offense philip but if I was a discipler I would be saying to the person talking to me, ever hear of freedom of speech? you keep philip quiet if it is so important to you, and if he does not remain silent we get to sue you o.k?, sounds like a plan. Who came up with that plan to silence you philip? it sounds unchristian and unworkable.

(Message edited by 40days40years on August 27, 2006)

[robert_unknown]

"I thought Paul Daniel did repent. By EN standards that written repentance I read was very honest at pointing out problems in the church at large and with himself I thought. PD is gone I guess I could understand that he thought it was enough and over? His confession of sins is a lot more then you will get from most people philip. "

i think so as well. i mean it must be very humiliating to confess something like this on videotape, and then go back and live there. it even was in the newspaper.

and he is not in ministry anylonger. on the other side, two well known men in EN have not confessed anything publicly nor have they left ministry. we rather concentrate on them.

[speakword2004]

I think the issue is that Paul Daniel was unrepentant of adultery committed in 1993 and as late 1999 was denying it as his fault to his elders. The issue is that it was covered up and he allowed it to be covered up. This probably led to him doing it again in 2001/02 although there are rumours of other infidelities.

Again, you are missing the issue. His People was complicit in the covering up of adultery from 1996-2003 and so was EN.

Do you really think the EN guys knew nothing until Jim Laffoon got a word of God? It is clear that Rice and co. gave Daniel enough rope to hang himself with. They came out smelling of roses.

[robert_unknown]

yep - thats also true. But I doubt that there will be much effort from PDs side to dig this up again. However. People who have been affiliated with HP Capetown should mail Gareth Stead and ask questions about it.

[philiprosenthal]

To respond to the questions above. Paul Daniel repented on video tape of two affairs committed over an 11 month period. He did not repent of:
* his first affair in about 1993/4;
* his lies to cover it up;
* remaining in a job for which he was spiritually unqualified (see 1 Timothy, Titus);
* failing to carry out his spiritual responsibilities during this period (e.g. stopping other moral compromise in the church - obviously he couldn't do so - he had no moral authority);
* setting a bad example as a leader during this period, thus leading many people astray;
* creating an intimidating and abusive church governance environment to cover up his deceit where numerous people get hurt (many abandoning not just His People, but church as a result);
* causing His People to lose the blessing of God and rather suffer under his judgement;
* taking a ridiculous salary during this period and wasting tithe money which could have been much better spent on other things.

Yes. He did partly repent, but he did not fully repent. As a result he has continued to suffer.

Furthermore, the cover-up team who helped him has not repented at all, but have been defending such action and trying to coerce others into joining them. Thus the legacy continues. Do we want more ministers whose lives follow this disastrous path? No. Let them repent before they go any further down this road.

But my issue is not primarily with Paul Daniel. The point is that the ministry hierachy as a whole has a broken relationship with God - starting on this issue, but extending to many others - they need to repent and return to God. Repent corporately and personally. Only then can God's blessing return. Some people are going to say that they personally are innocent as they knew nothing about this. Maybe so, but the ministry as a group is guilty before God. Those of us who do not share personal guilt need to intercede before God for this backslidden ministry for him to have mercy on the ministry. That is what Moses, Ezra, Daniel did with Israel.

[40days40years]

philip do you want to ground Paul Daniel into the dirt? I think PD did a pretty good job at repenting with dignity. It is enough everybody knows, he should not have to go down a long list of sins. PD is done, gone, I don't see the need to ask for every sordid detail in his repentance. PD did his part maybe he needs to do some restitution I don't know. Remember philip we are suppose to be better then Maranatha I read those stories about the athletic Godly Steve Jellicorse crying like a baby in repentance to a bunch of bastards and we don't want to be like those men who were not half that man but still driven to get a confession and repentance for sins not a fraction as bad as their own. Forgive, PD is gone and as a normal citizen of the world he owes us nothing. It is between him and God now in my opinion.

I kind of agree with Robert. There are men in America living large who have not shown 1/50th of Paul Daniel's repentance, they are more worthy of your attention. philip may God bless you but you are not a popular fellow in South Africa, America or the Phillipines.

(Message edited by 40days40years on August 28, 2006)

[philiprosenthal]

40days.
The issue here is not primarily about Paul Daniel, but about the fact that the ministry has seriously compromised itself and offended God through this long term cover up - and ongoing failure to repent of it. We are not talking about just an individual, but a whole denomination that has offended God - and turned away from its original belief and practices. The ministry has also not recovered or even turned the corner in the consequences of this backsliding. The problems of the ministry will carry causing destruction until they have repented.

[40days40years]

PD was compromised, the boys in EN in the states coveted HP in SA and London and all over. My bet is they knew this would happen, that PD would fall into sin and they could be the heroes that would swoop in and save the day. If PD was the pastor of a pathetic small church in nowhereville
he would have been kicked to the curb as a sinner and an adulterer from day one.

About turning away from original beliefs and practices? Maybe the pure ones at the top left? maybe the rotten ones stayed? I don't know I hope I am wrong.

[speakword2004]

40/40
I made the point above that the covr-up between 1996-2003 gives leeway for a conspiracy amongst the senior leadership of EN to nail Paul Daniel. Maybe there was no conspiracy against Daniel. Maybe the senior leadership of EN knew nothing until Laffoon supposedly got his prophetic word.You see that is the big problem with cover-ups. Also you can not measure the level of Paul Daniel's sins as we do not know the full extent of what EN covered up. There may be more which Philip has not found out.

I must say that I never thought it would be in Bill Bennot's character to make such a poor judement on his part regarding the His People churches. I can only think that he was unwisely counselled; if I give him the benefit of the doubt.

40/40 please go and read the Pauline epistles to Timothy regarding eldership and those who commit adultery. It is clear that Paul should not have been allowed to continue in his ways from 1996 and even clearer that he should not have held eldership nevermind apostolic leadership of a church family. Please note that His People was an autonomous and fast growing denomination long before it joined MSI/EN.

Other ministries such as those in the States are not our standard. Our standard as Christians in His People was the Bible: The Word of God.

[philiprosenthal]

In terms of the issues above, FactNet is full of stories of people complaining about power abuse and hypocrisy. But I am arguing here there is cause and effect between leadership sin and the result of hypocrisy and abuse spreading through the organisation. Maybe you get a little power abuse and hypocrisy in any church, but when things get totally out of hand, then there is usually an underlying cause. In the case of His People, this cover-up is the underlying cause. Unless it is dealt with Biblically, the power abuse and hypocrisy will carry on and burn lots of people's lives. I have now investigated about seven different case examples of seriously abusive organisations. In all the cases I have been able to investigate, the origin of the problem is a gross sin by the leader not properly disciplined. I won't say that is true in every case, but it is true in the cases I have carefully investigated. The same pattern is evident more or less every time: control, manipulation, hypocrisy, majoring on minors, deceit, and a repetition of the same sins and patterns.

It follows therefore that the solution to such behaviour patterns must involve repentance for the sins of the organisation in failing to excercise proper discipline.

So many people on this board are moaning about abuse and hypocrisy, but here is the cause of it and here is the solution to it. Repent. Sin of a leader if not properly treated, spreads through the whole community. See the link of the cause and the effect. Our ministry breaks God's law by tolerating an adulterer, so the ministry becomes full of the work of the devil. We want to get rid of the devil, we must repent. See this link for how an organisation must repent.

http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=abusive&action=display&thread=1146 572014

In the early stages of the AIDS plague, doctors saw various symptoms like tuberculosis and pneumonia in young individuals, but they didn't understand why. Then eventually they realised the immune system was compromised. That is why the people caught all the other infections. So when leaders refuse to do biblical discipline the way the Bible says they must 1 Timothy 5, then the whole organisation starts to catch all sorts of spiritual diseases.

And such discipline is in the own best interests of the man who has sinned. Otherwise the poor guy wanders around in purgatory without being able to either enjoy his sin or enjoy freedom from it in Christ. He half-repents and gets half-healed. And the organisation half-repents and limps on from one mistake to the next, but God isn't involved anymore. They have not returned to him.

Now for those who worry about privacy. You take on a position of senior Christian leadership - and you lose your right to privacy for your sin. It is a public issue (1 Timothy 5:20). In the old testament, the leader had to offer public sacrifice. If you aren't happy with that anyone - I suggest you get out of Christian leadership. It is a serious responsibility. That applies to me too. I am also a Christian leader. If I fall into scandalous sin, that will be a national issue. I will have no right to privacy.

[philiprosenthal]

And this is biblical. Joshua 22:20 we see that when Achan sinned against God, the whole community suffered military defeat until they disciplined him. But now we don't just have one mans sin, we have the sin of a whole group of ministry elders in assisting with this cover up.

I am saying it is not just a sin to commit adultery. It is also a sin to allow an undisiciplined and unrehabilitated adulterer to preach in a church pulpit. Christian ministry is a holy office reserved for holy people. It is not to be defiled by those who have made their lives filthy. You don't need a university degree in theology to be a church minister, but you do need to be holy (1 Timothy, Titus. If you are not holy, you must get out.

[speakword2004]

Let me give you examples of how such compromise can affect the church or show it up as hypocritical. Jesus was ver concerned about religious leaders causing his little ones to stumble.


1. In one particular South African EN a girl who was single and pregnant was summoned to the front of the church during a service and publically rebuked and chastised. Now it may have been that she had refused to repent or that she may have refused any discipline in counselling, but for someone to have that done to them whilst a senior minister who has committed serious adultery is a double standard and indicative of a spirit of deception on the church. Time and time again from across the globe we have accusations posted here and elsewhere of a double standard. In the church there should be no double standard or preferential treatment. In the church there actually is a higher standard for ministers. Not an exlcusive standard and not one in which the church is protected by wordly measures, but by the word of God.

[philiprosenthal]

RESPECTED BIBLE COMMENTATORS SAY FAILURE OF DISCIPLINE OF A LEADER CAN DESTROY A DENOMINATION

I found the warning from the great Bible commentary Hendriksen and Kistemaker on 1 Timothy 5 (the discipline of leaders) which is very relevant to our situation. See his warning about how:
i. Corruption usually begins at the top.
ii. If not dealt with properly, it can destroy a whole denomination.

"Now in the matters discussed in verses 19 and 20, and, in fact, in any matter
touching the discipline of church-leaders, one is easily influenced by purely subjective
considerations. But this can spell ruin for the church and for all those concerned.
Timothy, as apostolic delegate in the churches of Ephesus and vicinity, must not
allow this to happen to him. Even today biased judges, ecclesiastical “machines,” so-
called “investigating-committees” manned by job-hunters, “buddy-ism,” and the like
can easily destroy a denomination. Corruption generally begins “at the summit.”
Church History furnishes many examples. The man in the pew does not know what
happened “while he slept.” When he wakes up — if he ever does! — it is generally
too late.
Hence, absolute impartiality and unimpeachable honesty in all such matters are
essential. It is for that reason that the charge which the apostle now lays on Timothy is
so very grave. Everything is at stake! The church of the twentieth century may well
take to heart these solemn words: I charge (you) in the sight of God and of Christ
Jesus and of the elect angels that you observe these instructions without
prejudice, doing nothing from partiality. "
http://www.biblecentre.net/comment/nt/hend/past/past-Index.html

Therefore I call all leaders who read this to take it very seriously. If we don't get serious repentance and reform of this denomination, this sin will continue to spread and the whole denomination may be destroyed. We need prayer and repentance like in Ezra 9 and 10.

[speakword2004]

Philip was a lay leader in His People who found about this cover-up 8 years after it happened and he believes that there was compromise. Now, how many other people found out about it before him and what did this do?

Should Philip have stayed and kept silent? Would he not be complicit in this silence? The next time some person raised an issue should Philip lie about it? Any criticism of the church or any query that makes him or the church look bad? Then lie or tell half-truth? After all, his seniors did it supposedly for the good of the church. Why can't he?

Then if pastor A knows about the cover-up but does not tell anybody,except on a "need-to-know basis" then what? Could the "need-to-know" thing not become a tool of co-option. And so, just who needs to know? What is the criteria for being bought into the loop?

When a university chaplain asked me IN 1998 on a mission that I led to his university if Paul Daniel was a godly man I said he was. You may say that I as missions leader was left out of the loop on this one, but I did need to know. I needed to represent my church with integrity. Why did I not know the truth? It was kept from me and I neglected my feelings when I sensed something was wrong with the ministry 1998 to the time I left in 2004.

I needed to know and be given the oppurtunity to decide if I wanted to represent a church that had an adulterer as its President. Or if I wanted to represent a church that told lies to its members to cover up shameful things.

[speakword2004]

For a number of years we had weekly prayer meetings at His People Johannesburg where we had corporate repentance prayers and times of praying at various prayer stations including one for the His People/EN/MSI main idol: "Leaders".

It is one thing to have fuzzy wuzzy times of corporate repentance where people all fast for non-specifics or general issues, it is another to put on those issues on paper and deal with specific issues at hand.

For example, I very much doubt if the church will admit to operating in a spirit of deception and then admitting to the reasons for it without some embarresment and fear of loss. I would far more want the judgement of my fellow Christians than the judgement of God for unrepented sin.

[speakword2004]

The fact is is that Paul Daniel's leadership was affected by public scandal and that others now know about the fact that Paul Daniel committed adultery and remained in leadership for over 8 years after other leaders, including leaders of other denominations, came first to know about it all. Ray McCauley could say that the IFCC had no teeth regarding Paul Daniel, but it did have a voice and it should have barked loud and clear when Paul fudged the issue.

[speakword2004]

http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/5405.htm

HERE'S ANOTHER COMMENTARY THAT DRAWS ON CALVIN AND SPURGEON

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

a. Do not receive: In these verses, Paul hit the balance between believing and acting on every bit of gossip that comes along about a leader in the church, and ignoring serious sin in a leader’s life. Either extreme is wrong.

i. “Nothing does more harm than when some people are treated as if they could do no wrong and others as if they could do no right.” (Barclay)

ii. “The reason of this difference is evident: those whose business it is to correct others will usually have many enemies; great caution, therefore, should be used in admitting accusations against such persons.” (Clarke)

b. Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses: Any accusation against a leader should not be automatically received. The accusation should be carefully verified by two or three witnesses - not just two or three others who also heard the gossip. Timothy can’t allow false accusations about church leaders to circulate.

i. “It is indeed a trick of Satan to estrange men from their ministers so as gradually to bring their teaching into contempt. In this way not only is wrong done to innocent people whose reputation is undeservedly injured, but the authority of God’s holy teaching is diminished.” (Calvin)

ii. There is an old story about a pastor who was trying to defend himself against criticism. He said, “There’s a story going about that I told my wife not to go to a certain church that has wild meetings. They say my wife went anyway, dragged her out of the church by her hair, and hurt her so badly she had to go to the hospital. First of all, I never told her to stay away from that church. Second, I didn’t drag her out by her hair. Third, she never had to go to the hospital. Lastly, I’ve never been married so I don’t have a wife.”

iii. Spurgeon advised in Lectures to My Students that when people come to a pastor with gossip, he should say, “Well, all this is very important, and I need to give it my full attention - but my memory isn’t so good and I have a lot to think about. Can you write it all down for me?” Spurgeon says this will take care of it, because they won’t want to write down their gossip.

c

[speakword2004]

. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest may fear: However, if leaders are in sin, it must be addressed forthrightly - with public rebuke, to promote a fear of sin among the leadership and the entire church.

i. Many churches have had great trouble because sin in the leadership was not forthrightly dealt with. It’s important that everyone understand that leadership in the church does not shield one from accountability, it makes one even more accountable.

ii. In the Middle Ages, the church protected its corrupt bishops against accusation by demanding that 72 witnesses be brought forth to confirm any accusation against a bishop.

3. (21) Do not be prejudiced or show partiality.

I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.

a. I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels: This strong statement reflects the seriousness of the job of leaders in the church; they serve an eternal God and must please Him first in everything they do.

i. “We are safe in saying that the elect angels are identical with ‘the angels which kept their own principality’ (Jude 6), ‘that did not sin’ (2 Pet. 2:4).” (White)

ii. “He adds to Christ the angels, not that they are judges, but as future witnesses of carelessness or rashness or self-seeking or bad faith. They are present as spectators, for they have been given charge to care for the Church.” (Calvin)

iii. “And indeed the man who is not shaken out of his carelessness and laziness by the thought that the government of the Church is conducted under the eye of God and His angels must be worse than stupid, and have his heart harder than stone.” (Calvin)

b. Observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality: Prejudice and partiality are grave sins before God. In the New Testament, the emphasis is on partiality according to class (James 2:1-9); but partiality according to race and gender is also included (Galatians 3:26-29) and regarded as sins.

i. “Do not treat any man, in religious matters, according to the rank he holds in life, or according to any personal attachment thou mayest have for him. Every man should be dealt with in the church as he will be dealt with at the judgment-seat of Christ.” (Clarke)

[philiprosenthal]

I did write to Ray McCauley and ask him for an apology for failing to publicly rebuke Paul in 1996 acccording to 1 Timothy 5:20. He hasn't responded. I think he owes us an apology, but my main interest is not Ray McCauley or Paul Daniel, but the repentance of the EveryNation/His People denomination. Especially those directly involved with the original cover-up, plus those joined them later on and tried to manipulate the Matthew 18 process. But I don't think it is just a case of leaders apologising to us. In a sense we are all part of this movement and this movement has sinned greviously against God, by tolerating an adulterer in the pulpit plus a host of other sins. If we are responsible and have a heart for God and for the movement, then we need to intercede before God in identificational repentance. For those who don't understand this, read
http://www.pastorray.com/cms/content/view/80/33/
and
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=2710

Biblical examples are Ezra 9&10 and Daniel 9.
The issue was not that Ezra or Daniel had personally committed all these abominable acts,
In other words. They had been holy. But they were the peoples spiritual representative before God. They interceded on behalf of the group that had done wrong for God's mercy. And God did give mercy. This is the only way for a backslidden organisation back to God. Muddling on and saying it is all in the past won't work. Just blaming other people won't work. We need to beg God for forgiveness for the rebellion of His People/EveryNation ministries against this.

If we don't we will not have God's help in fighting sin in the organisation. And one of the main reasons why we need God's help is that one of God's primary methods of judgement is to hand people who are backsliding over to more and more sin until they eventually realise the severity of the pit they have fallen into (See for example the pattern of Romans 1).

Thus if we do not have identificational repentance, how is the organisation going to get out of that pit?

[speakword2004]

Another writer whom I have found helpful in reading all of this is the great puritan: John Owen. I find myself in an interesting position as a Christian as I am not currently a member of any church. I did resign covenant membership of His People in 2004. It just seems we can become very legalistic about all of this and come up with all kinds of excuses and reasons on either side not to bring resolution. The fact is besides my personal indignation, an offense as well as an injustice/sin/wrongdoing has been committed against the church and its Christians and what is the EN leadership going to do about it all? It is now public domain, I think a public apology and full repentance with disclosure is in order now.

[dust]

Speak
I was going to highlight a few of your statements as especially powerful and correct, but I couldn't pick just a few, as everything you said was awesome. I agree with what Philip is doing and commend his dilligence.

Everything you said: well thought out. What strikes me from all of this is that it also be in THE EN LEADERSHIP's BEST INTEREST to humbly and publicly repent, with a broken heart and a fear of the Lord.

It is RIGHT. It is NECESSARY. And, it is better to do so NOW than when they each face God alone.

Speak, Well spoken! I also feel "fortified" in the faith.

[speakword2004]

Dust,
You will knowe by experience that people are chewed up by the ministry and many are discarded by carelessness, lack of love and stupidity. I for one am not blameless as being an ignorant brute at times and also slipping into a pride and arrogance within the ministry.

I believe it was God that alienated me from my brethren for a reason. His purpose was to awaken me not only to my own stupidity and hardheadedness but also that of others. The irony is that even though I think they are a bunch of palookas their best kingdom interests are also my best interests. I don't believe that many leaders in EN do not love God or want His Kingdom to come. I think and hope they do. Come on guys, repent!

[philiprosenthal]

40days
With regard to your comment I may be being harsh on Paul Daniel in asking for a full apology, consider the damage he has caused to this movement and the mess that still needs to be cleaned up.

* Consider the quantities of time and money donated in good faith by people who were deceived by him and if they had known would have used their money differently. Consider such money wasted by himself on his luxuries. Can he pay it back? If he does honest work for the rest of his life, I don't think so. The least he can do is apologise.
* Consider all the people who have abandoned church - who I try to persuade to come back - that there are other non-abusive churches with ministers they can trust. Is it unreasonable to ask him to help a bit with the task of healing these peoples spiritual wounds by making a proper apology?
* What of those formerly good young leaders who have learned from him the techniques of manipulation, intimidatory leadership etc. How will one bring them back to their original pure faith and obedience to Christ? How does one free them from their delusions of self-importance taught by Paul? Wouldn't it help them a bit to have a proper apology to realise they have been spiritually misled for years and years?
* What of the shifted and softened attitude His People made under his later leadership towards moral absolutes like abortion and sexuality? (This was my main fight with the organisation). Can he correct all the harm he has caused? He could help a bit by admitting he did wrong in leading them in the wrong direction.
* What is sad, is that while he has left, many of the top leaders still seem to be under his bewitchment (Galations 3). They can't any longer think for themselves. They need the hierachy to tell them what to do. Whatever the hierachy says is right is right and whatever the hierachy says is wrong is wrong. I think an apology could help break this spell of bewitchment.

And these are just a few of the problems.

He cannot restore all the damage he has caused even if he spends the rest of his life trying to do so - at least he can do his part by making some proper full apology. Yes I appreciate he has written to a lot of letters of apology, but these don't attempt to deal with the above types of harm he has caused.

[robert_unknown]

"Everything you said: well thought out. What strikes me from all of this is that it also be in THE EN LEADERSHIP's BEST INTEREST to humbly and publicly repent, with a broken heart and a fear of the Lord. "

The problem is this: when you decide to build a ministry based on a authoritarian leadership style, you are handicaped by this, whenit comes to comiting failure and even sin.
because you painted a picture of infailabilty over many years, you cannot just confess failure.
so this people are trapped by themselfes.

of course the blame for failure gets shifted over to others.

- first they will blame the people who discover and question it
- if this doesnt work, they will blame others and they will paint their role as beeing a victim rather than an offender

they dont understand that people CAN forgive, when failure and sin gets confessed and delt properly. they dont understand that people dont believe in unfailibly leadership.

authority is in their eyes not mainly connected to integrity (even if they would agree on this), but rather to charisma, self-advertising, status-symbols, succes, intimidation, "anointing", vision, purpose...

so the problem is housemade. if there would be more emphasis on character from the beginning, the ends would look differently.

[robert_unknown]

therefore self-humiliation in the form of REAL repentance is no real option. its not part of their thinking. you must understand, that THEY have (in their eyes) a godly mandate and that THEY are chosen . Failure is no option, and if failure happens, they are not prepared to deal with it properly.

we have seen the most painfull cover-up here in Europe. Everyone, even people from outside the church and from other churches understood, why pastor left.

But the leadership played a whole concert of "he got promoted", and "God led him differently", and all the other blabla...

while everyone understood the REAL reason!

[robert_unknown]

i dont say, that this men are not able to repent, and that there is no repentance hapening at all.
but my experience is, that it is DIFFICULT for people with a mindset filled with false concepts of authority and submission to repent REAL.

[ulyankee]

robert_unknown, see the current discussion under the Bill Bennot thread under "Leaders," where we are discussing among other things the covering doctrine and "covering in love." Yes, you are right, if you have a false concept of authority, have accepted "covering," and have sin "covered in love" as a benefit of being "covered," then it is difficult to repent for real, b/c you think it's taken care of, covered.

This "covering" by so-called apostolic authority is NOT the covering of Christ. We are covered by Christ Himself, by His Blood, his perfect sacrifice on the Cross. Not by apostolic intermediaries who cover for us.

[philiprosenthal]

I don't know exactly why these guys didn't discipline Paul or why they don't want to repent now, but I would speculate that it has a lot to do with the mindset that puts senior leaders on a pedestal and then creates a huge hierachical structure based on that concept of a 'superman leader'. So everyone looks up to the superman leader and needs to defend him in order to keep the whole hierachical superstructure in place. i.e. defending the deception of the false leader is part of defending your own place in a false hierachy. If the false superman leader is discredited, then people may lose their respect for the entire false superstructure - and demand some real accountability. So now even when the superman is gone, one needs to do damage control and try raise up new supermen leaders to fit the gap of a need for a superman that keeps the whole false hierachy in order. It's hard to see until you get out of the system and realise that you don't need any supermen leaders to run the church at all. The junior guys drool over the supermen leaders and hope maybe will also be a superman one day. So we must keep up impressions. This is in stark contrast to Jesus teaching of Jesus:

MT 23:5 "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries* wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'

MT 23:8 "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.* 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

[40days40years]

Here is a question. Is it possible that MCM/EN/HP really is not a new testament church in regards to the mechanics on how it is run and administered? Is it really a hybrid system built on both the old and new testament?

All leadership has to do is pray and say God wants to do this and as a normal member it is like Moses has just spoken and if you don't go along your in danger of God smiting you. I understand obeying authority in the church but where do you or they draw the line. Is it basically upper leadership in this system has carte blanch unless they tell you to do something obviously sinful? What happened to fellow heirs in Christ? EN is not about brothers it is about the rulers and the ruled where the rubber hits the road. It is like as a Christian were heirs in Christ but some are more heirs then others with this thing. I know there are positions of authority in the church but still there was only one Moses and only one David and obviously one JESUS. I can't put my finger on it but this movement seems so obsessed about offices and titles and their positions of authority which cannot be challenged lest God be challenged. That is why reform is so hard here because people don't want to give up their power and people are afraid to confront this thing because there is some fear there thinking what if I am wrong?

[philiprosenthal]

HOW HP COVER UP TEAM TRIED TO MANIPULATE ME TO PARTICIPATE IN THEIR COVER UP:

40days writes on the Bill Bennot thread: "Even philip had a muzzle put on him for quite awhile and I am sure they commited to a biblical course of correction with the promise that you will be quiet about it. At the very least they can buy time with this approach and when you finally realize you have been lied to and had, they can then say, come on that was 5 or 10 years ago, water under the bridge, lets cover it in love."

Just to clarify what happened here. I never bought into this lie. It was part of the evil manipulations of the cover-up team. We met in May 2005: Myself, Gareth Stead, Err.ol Nai.doo., Mike Cerff, Rob Young plus some outside ministers. The meeting started with them trying to get me to agree to secrecy. I refused. Then they accused me of lack of accountabilty and being a lone ranger. I denied this. They wanted me to agree to keep quiet unless everyone at the meeting agreed to release the information. I refused. So I say to the other group of ministers I agree to keep quiet temporarily while the process is underway, but not forever. Then they asked me who I was accountable to. I said I was accountable to the ministers present at the meeting, excluding the His People ones. So they then asked me if I would cover up if the other ministers at the meeting told me to. Now this was a major manipulation because if I said no then they could try drive a wedge between me and the other ministers by saying I was unaccountable. If I said 'yes', then they could argue that I was doing exactly the same as them and thus had no right to criticise them - since they had also agreed to cover up under authority. So I said that the bible says according to 1 Timothy 5:20 that this issue must be public. So they asked me who interprets the Bible? I told them the meaning of the scripture is plain to see. So they again accused me of being unaccountable. So I ask them what was their interpretation of this scripture. They refused to say. They want to leave it open for them to decide and they want me to kind of agree to sign a blank cheque to go along with their interpretation. So then there are new threats against me unless I agree which I will not share since it may hurt good people. I will agree to abide by their interpretation of 1 Timothy 5:20 provided that they publish it and I have the right to publicly debate that interpretation. I knew by doing this that if they came up with the wrong interpetation that I could then beat them in public debate on the issue in principle and get them to reverse their position - at which point I would again be free. So then when I agreed to this then His People cover-up team asks me what is the difference between my agreeing to participate in the cover-up and their agreeing to participate in in - since both of us were just following orders. Anyway they didn't understand my strategy to navigate their manipulations.

So then behind my back, Gareth Stead threatens some of the other ministers 'Unless we put this to bed, I will have no choice but to take legal action.

So then some of the other ministers, not wanting to get mixed up in an ugly fight, withdraw from the process. So now I am in a fix. If I go public, I will be accused of breach of Matthew 18 process. If I don't go public I will be accused of cover-up. So I keep bugging the ministers to give me a decision on their interpretation of 1 Timothy 5:20. They just say they have withdrawn and give me no response. Then a year later I find out the real reason why: they have been threatened by Gareth Stead. So anyway then I get most of them to agree with the my interpretation of 1 Timothy 5:20, that it means that the scandalous minister must be rebuked publicly. So then I take that as permission to go forward with the process.

[philiprosenthal]

Do you see how manipulative these guys are? Do you see the same evil spirit working in this cover-up as manipulated things in 1996 and beyond? These are false ministers. Do you want to get yourself mixed up in this wicked web of cover-up, threats and deception. My advice for everyone in EveryNation: separate yourselves from these guys. Help bring them under God's righteous judgement and discipline, but don't submit to their authority and don't get caught up in their web. Tell them to repent. Don't get muddled up in it.

[philiprosenthal]

IS HIS PEOPLE/EVERYNATION CHURCH GOVERNANCE

40days writes: "Is it really a hybrid system built on both the old and new testament? "

I think the system of governance is much worse than that. EveryNation is not even trying to obey the Old Testament law.

* Under the Old Testament law, an adulterer is stoned. Now one can't apply that in the church, but at least you can kick him out of leadership - maybe stone him with rotten tomatoes till he gets out the pulpit.
* Furthermore, the Old Testament law allows any two people to initiate a disciplinary process. In everynation, only the top guys can do so.
* There has to be a proper investigation. There is no proper investigation in EveryNation - just cover up.
* Under Old Testament law, if elders won't exercise discipline, then they and their whole group are guilty and may themselves be subject to discipline. In EveryNation responsibility is just buck passed and denied.
*In Old Testament law, there were requirements of purity for the priesthood. In EveryNation those who sin are just glossed over.
* In Old Testament law, there were much tougher penalties for leaders and priests if they sinned - including public sacrifice. But in EveryNation small guys get hammered for sin, but big guys are let off scot free.
* The old testament law discouraged Kings and if they were allowed forbade them wasteful luxuries. In EveryNation we have kings (rulers with total authority in their own fifedom) and they waste lots of resources on their luxuries.

No. EveryNation does not abide by either Old Testament or New Testament ethics or law. It is a cultish system of governance, which in the case of His People we have evidence was invented by an adulterer to cover up his sin. It is wicked. The congregations must insist on proper accountability of leaders to the scripture.

[40days40years]

Well I meant old testament in that when you deal with a leader psychologically it is like you are dealing with Elijah or Moses. There is fear that you don't experience at most christian churches.
And there were a lot of corrupt priests back then and it is not like men were commited to one woman. Remember it was a system based on the old testament interpreted by the pharisees that put Jesus to death.

Philip did you ever ask these coverup guys if they thought it was wrong to withold this stuff from the congregation? If you did what did they say? It is amazing they were stressed out about it in 2005 and it is amazing it was covered up for so long.

[philiprosenthal]

40days
The problem is not with the Old Testament law. Jesus affirmed the Old Testament law. The problem was that that Pharisees were hypocrites (Matthew 23), who despite the fact they had good evidence that Jesus was the messiah (his miracles and his resurrection from the dead) decided to do a 'cover-up' of Jesus resurrection by bribing the guards to say that his body got stolen. They loved their religious positions more than the truth.

The Pharisees did not obey the old testament law. They didn't find good reason to put Jesus to death. They just assumed him guilty in the mockery of a trial. They also ask for the guilty Barabbas to be set free by Pilate.

So just the same with our modern Pharisees in EveryNation who kick out, slander good people who have done nothing wrong, let the guilty go off free and cover up their mistakes. Same attitude and practices. They must repent!

"MT 28:11 While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, "You are to say, `His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." 15 So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day."

[40days40years]

Scary stuff.

[philiprosenthal]

40days writes "Philip did you ever ask these coverup guys if they thought it was wrong to withold this stuff from the congregation? If you did what did they say?"

At the meeting I argued they had done something wrong. They refused to acknowledge this, but rather I was doing something wrong by bringing up this issue.

Nevertheless, one of them privately told another friend of mine he realised they had made a mistake. I don't think they realise though the severity of the mistake.

It was also evident that they have all suffered a lot as a result of this. One commented 'we have been through hell'. But I don't think they have grasped that their suffering is a direct consequence of their sin in colluding in the cover-up. Also though that the much that thousands of other people have also suffered seriously as consequence of their sin.

I also don't expect that this suffering of the ministry will stop until there is repentance for this sin. If you have had trouble from the dysfunction of the His People organisation. The reason is that the organisation is under God's judgement. If you haven't had trouble yet, well just wait....... If the organisation doesn't repent of this hypocrisy, the trouble will eventually reach your doorstep.

[40days40years]

They don't seem to bright philip and I am sure they are intelligent men. Surely they must understand that your average dues paying member would not like to find out that this thing was kept secret from them for years? Common decency would say tell the members what happened, tell the members what is the proposed course of action and then let the individual members decide for themselves if that is adequate. Most average members will go along being led around like little puppy but not in a case like this if their not happy. This is about disrespecting the congregation on a very profound level and no covering/covenant theology can justify it. Those men were told to be quiet about it and they went along with it. If I was an average member I would not be happy about that.

[philiprosenthal]

I don't think there is a lack of intelligence here. I think it's basically a cultic mindset, that Paul Daniel has bewitched them with. I don't think the see themselves as accountable to members or anyone below them at all. Rather it seems there is a fuedal mindset, where they see themselves as in a feudal hierachy, where they 'own' the vassals and serfs below them. If the vassals and serfs don't submit to their every whim then they are at fault for being disobedient, rebellious vassals and serfs - and thus they deserve to be corrected or punished. If they leave, then they are obviously disloyal to the church. Why, under the feudal system, would you as a good noble baron need to explain anything to a serf, who is so much below you - or to a disloyal vassal knight who has rebelled against his masters? The very fact that he has disobeyed on another issue proves that he is outside the feudal system (apostolic covering) and thus should be shunned altogether. Anyway, why should spiritual nobility mix with commoners and those rebelling against the God-ordained apostolic feudal system?

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Phil
I have heard Maranatha described as a feudal system, as you compare EN/HP now. This elite state is so not what the Word shows. But I think that there is a subtle difference here, in this system. The lower level support the upper, so someday they , too could be upper,also. It reminds me of Chicago, Boston political machines, grinding and moving on. I think that is why, it goes on , some think they can go up , and others don't know the scheme. It is hidden from them.}

[speakword2004]

Coppertree

One of the characteristic features of empire is co-option.

[speakword2004]

http://www.reveal.org/library/psych/stumpk.html#authority

See this book on the ICC. I find some interesting comparisons with EN. EXCERPT:

"Sometimes an abuse or other wrongdoing by the ICC cannot be denied or ignored. One of the key ways of handling such issues is by treating all problems as if they were things of the past. A healthy way of handling problems is realizing what problems have been left in the past, learning from those errors, while facing those in the present. Generally, this is not permitted as relates to the ICC as a group. All problems of the group have to be viewed in the past tense. When it comes to the individual, there certainly is a never-ending barrage of alleged shortcomings with which the leadership berates the ordinary member. However, no acknowledgment is permitted that the ICC as a group has a current problem – especially if it relates to systemic abuse and control."

Also see a great book about the ICC that investigates the roots of the discipling movement.

http://www.somis.org/TDD-01.html

EXCERPT
The first root of the modern discipling movement may be found in the Roman Catholic Spiritual Directors of the fifth century and later throughout Roman Catholic history. The Spiritual Director system operated in monasteries and convents for many centuries. Those being trained were told to reveal their most secret thoughts to their Spiritual Director and submit themselves totally to their Spiritual director's decisions as to what is good and evil. This is essentially what is now called a "discipling relationship." The idea of confessing sins to a discipler obviously comes from the Catholic tradition and their doctrine of auricular confession. Because of abuses, the Roman Catholic Church built in a safeguard in their Spiritual Director arrangement. They found that personal domination and manipulation can easily run out of control when one person is both the confessor and the Spiritual Director. They began to require, therefore, that the confessor and the Spiritual Director could not be the same person. In this regard, the modern discipling movement is about where the Roman Catholic Church was almost 1,500 years ago. They have not yet learned the danger of having one

[40days40years]

speakword wrote to me at the Bill Bennot thread under the leader section: 40/40 I think elements in the church would be happy to chalk it up as old news or something in the distant past to be forgotten.

40/40, I thought my response would be better over here, the question is when is it old news and not worth sqwalking about? For instance with PD having his first adultry in 92/93 discovered and then covered up in 96?

For a new christian that was a long time a go. If I had been born again in the year 2001 and I just found out about this in 2006 I would most likely think, yeah the congregation should have been told but who cares it's old news. Even if I had been born again in in the mid 90's I might not care so much if I was a big fan of Paul Daniel and I was born again under his ministry. The funny thing is if I was already a mature believer in 1996 at His People and I found out that as a member of the congregation I had not been told of his infidelity by the pastors there I would be angry about it and consider it a coverup and disrespectful of the congregation.

At what point do you say this is old news especially in light of the fact that Paul Daniel is gone? Now ofcourse if you were talking about keeping a child molesters crimes covered up then that is differant because it is never old news but if that had happened PD would have been thrown out immedeatly.

I know what Philip is trying to do but what would prevent His People leaders from saying, yeah we made a mistake not informing the congregation but Paul Daniel had a strangle hold on the place and at the time (which is true) it seemed like a good idea not to have a bunch of sordid details exposed. Would that explanation be good enough for most? If leadership did that and said it would not happen today would there just be some grumbling but things would continue on their merry way? since it is in the past? Like I said if I was a newer convert it would not bug me much because to me it would be filed under old news.

What percent of the congregation at His People is fairly new and would not be upset about this coverup because its old news and PD is gone? what percent would be quite upset?

It is an interesting question where does time factor into this thing? Scandals do happen but PD is gone. Philip says God is judging HP over this but maybe it is the other things going on that has the Lord upset? I am just throwing this stuff out there. Personally if I was HP leadership I would use the PD had a stranglehold on the place and the congregation being held in the dark won't happen again if the main pastor is caught in a sin like this. As a member that would most likely be good enough -- Any thoughts?

(Message edited by 40days40years on September 02, 2006)

[philiprosenthal]

40years. Whether people are old or new members is not the main issue. This is not just about the emotions of the congregation. The issue is that this is a gross sin against God, which was colluded to by numerous leaders still in leadership in EveryNation for a long long time. The sin is also not just the adultery. The sin is that an adulterer was allowed in a filthy spiritual state to lead the movement for eight years after being found out. These are the issues:

1) How does His People/EveryNation gain God's forgiveness for this abomination? Answer: By corporate repentance and discipline (e.g. Ezra 9-10).
http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=abusive&amp;action=display&amp;thread=1146 572014

2) How do we restore the integrity of the ministers involved in the cover up?

3) Do we trust the ministers involved in the cover up with spiritual responsiblity in future?

4) How do we reverse the damage to various mentored leaders and the movement caused by about ten years of being spiritually misled by Paul Daniel? (I encourage all His People leaders to read the stuff posted at www.everynationreform.com (http://www.everynationreform.com) to help unlearn some of the bad stuff introduced during this period).

5) How do we cleanse the rot out of the movement?

6) The fact that such a cover-up occured is evidence that at least part of the movements leadership is operating in a cultic manner. How do we de-cultify it?

These are tough questions. I am interested in others comments.

--------------------------

* With regard to other sins of the church. Yes there are lots of other sins the church has committed, which they need to repent of. What do you expect with an adulterer at the top? But this is where it started, and that is where the repentance needs to start.
* With regard to Paul Daniel having a stranglehold on the place - yes that is true, but it is not an excuse. There is a moral obligation to stand against wickedness in leadership. Secondly, the governance structures and systems he set up have not been reformed and have been copied by numerous other churches planted by the movement. Thus these churches are also vulnerable to a sad similar degeneration. See recommendations to reform governance structure
http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=abusive&amp;action=display&amp;thread=1145 953642

[jonmoseley]

I think it is very clear that while His People (in addition to Paul Daniels pesonally) probably engaged in a cover up, EVERY NATION DID NOT.

You need to stop spreading this filth.

The "proof" that you point to all reinforces the opposite.

Unless you have some pretty strong, convincing proof that Every Nation -- who actually removed Daniels from the ministry -- participated in a cover-up, you are in sin for repeatedly spreading those lies.

HP, apparently yes. EN, no.

[40days40years]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[philiprosenthal]

In my exposure of the cover-up, I said that if any fact was found to be incorrect, I would post a correction. His People has disputed one of the reported facts and since most of the witnesses are supporting His People's version of this fact and the person who made the original claim has failed to respond, I have posted a correction. Read it at the bottom of this thread dated 4 April 2007.

http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?action=display&amp;board=abusive&amp;thread=1156 407556&amp;page=1

[jia]

HP, apparently yes. EN, no.
dear Jon Mosely. Perhaps you did not realize it, but EveryNation IS HisPeople AND MornigstarInternational TOGETHER. the merger happened between 1998 and 2002 (decisions have been made earlier while the congregation was led into the whole thing over a period of years). only AFTEr HP and MSI have joined the whole unholy alliance got renamed into EveryNation.

i still remember the banners witch the printed word "HisPeople and MorningstarInternational are now EverNation"....

[philiprosenthal]

Jon

As JIA states, EveryNation is the organisational successor to His People. Many His People leaders now form part of the senior organisational structure of EveryNation. Most of the EveryNation leaders are not personally guilty of this cover up - but the same is true of the His People leaders - most didn't know about it (obviously otherwise it wouldn't have been covered up). But before God, His People and its successor organisation EveryNation has sinned - and this sin needs to be cleansed from the organisation through organisational repentance - as was done for example in the days of Ezra (Ezra 9-10).

There are incedently some allegations I have heard which may provide further information on Jon Moseley's question, but I can only go public if and when I have witnesses willing to testify.