Is the ragamuffin gospel dangerous

[40days40years]

Look at this link (http://herescope.blogspot.com/2006/11/false-ragamuffin-gospel.html) I really can't take credit for this new thread. A lot of people I like adore this book but this info should be out there. We all like it hard and edgy right? Don't cut yourself.

[wildwood_]

Hey 40/40 Have you had an opportunity to read it yet? I have and it's going to be tucked into my husband's gear for an upcoming extended vacation to desert & arid region mountain regions...weight being an important consideration, I think He's going to be delighted with just how light the Lord can help his heart if not his Boots feel as they march along in Grace...

I wrote a longer email to a friend, almost a book report on the Ragamuffin Gospel (it's just too big to post), but as hard as I tried to find the dangerous contemplative spirituality discussed as a concern by two people named Yungen & Craddock... I saw no such thing...I did see Jesus, His Mercy and the Love of God extending towards men just where He found them...in a tree, fishing, counting money, taking time off between "night" clients... Ugliness & Sin & Hopelessness with out being born to a "New Life" in Christ.

If I see something amiss, I'll holler out...No Book replaces the Word of God--but the Ragamuffin Gospel to me so far...just preaches the Jesus I know. I have a couple of chapters left so perhaps I'll see something unexpected...if so I'll give a shout out. Until THEN...Anyone who can should take the time to read about a Ragamuffin....you might be one...turns out I am!!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[40days40years]

Gothcha wildwood http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif. This is what the internet is about. There are more links that I may post about this book. Anyway about your hubby? I hope he has a great vacation and does not end up saying inside, OOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!

Yeah this thread is going to be good. Hatter, JRJ, come on in.

Brutally truthfull, edgy all that good stuff.

40 putting his sword down for now I do want to hear about this book, those who adore, those who detest.

[john_r_jones]

Have you read the book? If not I won't bother you with my opinions about something that has no real interest for you.

John

[40days40years]

Have you read the bible?

[mdillon]

didn't take you long to pick your sword up again, now did it?

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

40/40: Have you read the bible?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
What kind of a question is that? Everyone here knows John R. Jones has read the Bible.

I think his questions asking whether you have read The Raggamuffin Gospel is relevent. How is anyone here supposed to engage in open and honest discussion with you about this book if you haven't even read it. If you have not--and so far you haven't given the impression that you have--then why are you posting about it? Do you share the opinion of the people on the blog you link to? If you have read it and are concered, why don't you just come out and say "I read this book and I have concerns about it which are shared by the writers of [the blog you linked to]"?

[speakword2004]

Having read Ragamuffin Gospel I do not think that Brother Manning cheapens Grace at all. He points directly at the Reformation and Faith which informs and directs our understanding of Grace. Manning successfully takes grace away from the RC church as a dispensation into it being a reality of the character and nature of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Reading 2 of Mannings books did not inspire me into monkish navelgaving and neither have I been converted into a mantra chanting mystic. Instead I have had my suspicion confirmed that the half-life of works persists in modern day Christianity to our detriment. Authentic Christian works are the expression of the individual believer and not the micro-managed mantlepiece trophies of the modern mega church. Instead Christian works are the natural outflow of a life centered in Christ Jesus to his obedience and worship.

[matt_hatter]

40, you are nothing more than a bomb thrower. This author, along with many others (some non christian), makes me think. You on the other hand, just make me mad. I think you and frankie might be in cahoots, who can keep factnet stirred up the most. Why even start a thread like this? You are one of the big proponents of topics relating to EN, can you give me some reason why this might relate to EN? Never mind, I don't even want your answer, it will probably be another molotov cocktail. I am getting weary of factnet. sheesh.

[speakword2004]

I have read through the article linked from Herescope and must conclude that the arguement is a bit forced. I do not see Manning advocating any other saviour than Jesus Christ. Perhaps quitely chanting "Jesus Christ of Nazareth loves me" ten times a day would be more beneficial to a person with poor self esteem than kissing their own ugly mug in the mirror ten times a day.

[speakword2004]

Having said that please could we keep discussions here topical and relevant to EN. 40/40 a few weeks ago you were complaining of same.

[wisedove]

lost my other post..

40, thanks for posting this here. I don't think you are out of line posting about a book that has nothing (perhaps) to do with EN, as I have started threads here about Coffee, Rainbows, and have given movie-picks and recipes, even. I think this looks like a good read, and perhaps we shculd do a Book Club thing, read, and post about it.

I will add this to the other 2 books I bought this week to read. I'll have a trilogy of sorts going. Perhaps I will be able to recommend the next book.

[40days40years]

Thank you wisedove. Matt Hatter I know you like this book, it is all the rage it seems. If everybody is going to be quoting it on this site it is relevant. J-2 take a chill pill, M dillon I dropped my sword some where please retrieve it for me. Hatter I love M-80's. When I was a kid some guys would launch cherry bombs into the atmosphere where bats fly. Lets just say it gave them a wake up call.

[wildwood_]

40/40...if Mr Dilly does return your sword to you...it's going to have a very dull edge, be slightly rounded, highly polished and lookin' might pretty as the hood ornament of '57 Chevy-BelAir (of course). Hmmm, if it's runnin' good I'd like to road test it for you... just let me know where you live...no, I don't want to drop it off there...I want to avoid a flock?herd?gaggle? of bat cast landing on a freshly waxed hardtop...I'll meet you at Starbucks but leave the M-80's at home. I'll have J2t &amp; Dovey in the car (Morning Ladies!)...possibly we will bring Mr Jones &amp; Mr Hatter along stuffed in the truck to change a flat tire or general good company(in a '57 Chevy it's huge &amp; they'd probably be stretched out napping comfortably)...I guess Mr Dillon could relax at home since he refurbished the hood ornament (we'll bring him back take out). I hope you don't mind having the coffee ready &amp; waiting... Well, I didn't say "how long I'd test drive it"...or "where"... it will give you time to read Ragamuffin Gospel if you haven't yet. If you do...I think you'll like it. Really. I wanted to use a highlighter on it...I cannot tell you how many years it has been since that urge has come over me...and I would have if I could've found one that had a cap on it &amp; wasn't dried up...My Daughter likes markers...

Speakword...Hi and I really enjoyed your comments on the book. The blog seemed to be quoting other peoples' comments about Manning's views of spirituality that just didn't mesh with what he actually wrote in "Ragamuffin Gospel". I finished the book, and the one section that might have been considered contemplative prayer was...only it was contemplation of specific Biblical passages...radical concept that...LOL. Not Mystical...Practical...or perhaps a "Human"... Loved with the Grace &amp; Mercy of an "Abba" Father.

Speak, You also said: "Authentic Christian works are the expression of the individual believer and not the micro-managed mantlepiece trophies of the modern mega church. Instead Christian works are the natural outflow of a life centered in Christ Jesus to his obedience and worship".

That actually sums up my view of what Manning was writing of in a "Ragamuffin Gospel". Our Relationship with God through Jesus Christ...who dwells in us and works from the inside...to the outside for His Glory. What benefit is a whole auditorium full of people to a lost world if most sitting there do not know the Joy of their Risen Savior?? Or if they do, are still a bit afraid to meet "Their Lord &amp; Their God" in the quiet time alone??

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

40/40: J-2 take a chill pill<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I find it interesting that rather than actually responding to the meat of my post you decided to dismiss my questions by telling me to "take a chill pill".

If you have concerns about The Ragamuffin Gospel that's fine. And if you want to discuss those concerns, I have no problem with that. However, the manner in which you broached the subject did not strike me as promoting healthy discussion or debate, and your response to John (i.e. "Have you read the bible?") seems to me, at worst, an unwarranted attack and, at best, simply very rude--did you intend it to be so?

I would like to know what your thoughts about The Ragamuffin Gospel are. Do you agree fully with what was written in the link you posted? Or do you agree only partly? Or do you not agree at all but thought that what the authors of that blog wrote had enough value that it warranted being linked to even if you didn't agree?

You yourself stated, "We all like it hard and edgy right? Don't cut yourself." My questions hardly rose to the level of either hard or edgy; they were (and are) simply basic questions that naturally result from your first post, and yet you have, thus far, refused to answer them.

[wisedove]

Wildwood,
It's funny that you mentioned the <font color="ffff00"><font size="+1">highlighter</font></font> because I had those same thoughts last night as I began a new book. I thought "Should I, or shouldn't I?" I passed, but I think I will dig them (multi-colored that I hide from my children!) out and perhaps highlight in an array of colors as I read.
Thanks.
I like the road trip, btw.

[wisedove]

I have an obsession with pens and highlighters. It's pretty bad. I just love gel colored ink, and many different choices for hightlighters. The smoother they glide, the better.

Pray for me.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All
40, I would say back to you with a question-What isn't dangerous?????????


Ps. With thanks to Lablady}

[jesusisawesome]

I'm a total fan of The Ragamuffin Gospel. Some parts I have highlighted:

"Our experience of God's unconditional love must be shaped by the scriptures. God's written word must take hold of us as His spoken Word took hold of Isaiah and Jeremiah, Ezekia and Hosea; as the spoken word of Christ mesmerized Matthew and Mary Magdalene, and captivated Simon Peter and the Samaritan woman.

The Word we study has to be the Word we pray. My personal experience of the relentless tenderness of God came not from exegetes, theologians, and spiritual writers, but from sitting still in the presence of the living Word and beseeching Him to help me understand with my head and heart His written word. Sheer scholarship alone cannot reveal to us the gospel of grace. We must never allow the authority of books, institutions or leaders to replace the authority of knowing Jesus Christ personally and directly."

"Jesus spent a disproportionate amount of time with people described in the gospels as: the poor, the blind, the lame, the lepers, the hungry, the sinners, prostitutes, tax collectors, the persecuted, the downtrodden, the captives, those possessed by unclean spirits, all who labor and are heavy burdened, the rabble who know nothing of the law, the crowds, the little ones, the least, the last, and the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

In short, Jesus hung out with ragamuffins.

Obviously His love for failures and nobodies was not an exclusive love - that would merely substitute one class prejudice for another. He related with warmth and compassion to the middle and upper classes not because of their family connections, financial clout, intelligence, or social register status but because they, too, were God's children. While the term poor in the gospel includes the economically deprived and embraces all the oppressed who are dependent upon the mercy of others, it extends to all who rely entirely upon the mercy of God and accept the gospel of grace - the poor in spirit (Matthew 5:3)."

[jesusisawesome]

"One of the mysteries of the gospel tradition is this strange attraction of Jesus for the unattractive, this strange desire for the undesirable, this strange love for the unlovely. The key to this mystery is, of course, Abba. Jesus does what He sees the Father doing, He loves those whom the Father loves."

"Human love will always be a faint shadow of God's love. Not because it is too sugary or sentimental but simply because it can never compare from whence it comes. Human love with all its passion and emotion is a thin echo of the passion/emotion love of Yaweh."

"I could more easily contain Niagara Falls in a tea cup than I can comprehend the wild, uncontainable love of God."

"We need to ask ourselves: Do I really believe the good news of Jesus Christ? Do I hear His word spoken to my heart: "Shalom, be at peace, I understand?" And what is my response to His second call, whispering to me, "You have My love. You don't have to pay for it. You didn't earn it and can't deserve it. You only have to open to it and receive it. You only have to say yes to My love - a love beyond anything you can intellectualize and imagine."

These are some of the parts I've underlined, that capture the essence of the message of this book . . . about God's incredible love. Our love is but a drop of water in the vast ocean of His incredible love.

[40days40years]

Wildwood, very good stuff and very funny. mdillon DO NOT TOUCH MY SWORD! It will come back looking like a dull chrome fin off of a chevy. NEVER!!

JIA I will talk about Brennan Manning tommorrow not all of it is bad just some concerns and I did read some of his stuff but that is for later. You served Phil Bonasso for years who is the anti Brennan Manning.

Same bat channel, same bat time.

[speakword2004]

I undertsnad that at least one EN church in SA promotes Manning's books? I think that this can be a good thing.

[40days40years]

Manning does believe in the Hospital Church and being sold out completely to Christ and leaving the entanglements of the world behind so I can see why he appeals to people here. He compels people to seek God I have been browsing one of his books. There are many christians out there who are convinced that he is a universalist however, just google ragamuffin gospel. Also he quotes dozens of people (usually that is a semi endorsment) some of these folks are christian mystics who steer people towards and eastern style of meditation. I would be concerned about young people having a super natural experience doing these practices and then how do you reach them if their experience is not from God? There are a few other things I will mention later.

[wildwood_]

Hey 40/40... I know I over simplify things but ...it's a book written by a man about his experiences of faith. It doesn't claim to be the divinely inspired Word of God, it says "merely" to believe the divinely inspired Word of God... Toss Manning's Book out the door and it still leaves the Gospel &amp; Books of John which sound very much like "Ragamuffin Gospel" and that doesn't even include the references made specific to the specific teachings of both Peter &amp; Paul on Freedom, Grace, Mercy, and Change... All accomplished and through the Cross... (Read the book please).

I understand (or I am beginning to) why there's concern regarding "Universalism" &amp; "Mysticism" &amp; a variety of worries that Gospel of Jesus is being watered down or falsely presented to the world. As you you mention, lots of web pages on the subject....all written for Christians who are already of like mind. The solution to fears about false gospels...is not dissecting books sentence by sentence to expose scriptural conflicts (there will be); the "solution" is to preach, to teach, to live, to show, to be the "Real Gospel of Jesus Christ"-- Once people have seen and known the Reality of their Risen Savior...No Counterfeit can truly fool them...His Love cannot be duplicated...Signs &amp; Wonders can be...His Grace &amp; Mercy cannot be... The Father will not give stones to Children that ask for Bread... Hearts seeking Jesus will find Jesus--Because HE is and has always been seeking us first.

I've read hundreds of books on Christian faith...but I accept nothing that conflicts with what I believe &amp; have searched out for myself in the Scriptures. I don't take anyone's "word" for what Jesus says...I have knees that bend, I pray and ask Him myself. He does not always answer as directly as I'd like, but He never fails! I'd recommend "Ragamuffin Gospel" to any older Christian...possibly even a new Believer depending upon their background. But, I'd always and have always "recommended" reading the Gospel and Books of John FIRST. No Substitute for the Original http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

Do you have any books that you would recommend for reading? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[wisedove]

hi, wildy
dove

[wisedove]

Pilgrim, if you are reading here, you might get confused once again with wisedove and wildwood, posting on the same thread!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[matt_hatter]

I would like to know what authors have made you the caring soul that you are 40. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

I could care less at this point of my life who is a mystical writer, a fighting fundie, etc. All I care about is if this writer points me to the love and grace of Christ. And Manning does. Read JIA's quotes from the book and tell me this man doesn't worship Christ. I couldn't give a rat's rump amymore about some fundie's view of Manning.

[john_r_jones]

I wrote some stuff in the nest if you like.

John

[40days40years]

The Apostle Paul, Smith Wigglesworth and Popular Mechanics.

If Manning has error should he not be addressed? It does not matter if he is a spiritual being 50 times more advanced then me and you and jrj, combined.

Hard and edgy, ruthless trust, brutally truthfull- yeah that sounds great till your holy ox gets gored.

Brennan Manning might like this?

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

40/40: If Manning has error should he not be addressed? It does not matter if he is a spiritual being 50 times more advanced then me and you and jrj, combined.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
A person's character either adds to or detracts from their credibility, so, depending on what your definition of "spiritual" is, then it could indeed be relevent if Manning were, in fact, 50 times more spiritually advanced that you or me. A Christian is judged by their fruits--are they loving, are they joyful, are they peaceful, patient, kind, gentle, self-less, in control of themselves? I don't think you can truly disconnect theology from the fruits of the Spirit. The result of a particular spiritual teaching is one of the ways a Christian can discern whether that teaching is correct.

[wildwood_]

Wow J2t! (Jesus 2the Nth Degree!)What an annoying bit of remarkable insight from a mere child; hmmm, according to my flexible math I'm just a couple of years older &amp; holding... You said <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I don't think you can truly disconnect theology from the fruits of the Spirit.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> If the Fruit isn't there...Jesus isn't there.

And 40/40...this may sound a bit odd, but I do not consider anyone more "Spiritually Advanced" than myself (except of course great elders in the Faith such as my Grandmother or my Aunt "Ruth" whose life every single minute showed the Living Savior). I don't consider myself more "Spiritually Advanced" than a brand new Believer. Although when I "first" discovered the "Fullness of the Holy Spirit" at 18...I did suffer from a foolish arrogance of youth and sadly tolerate folks like my Aunt "Ruth" for lacking this "indwelling wisdom" and remaining "stuck" instead of growing more "Advanced" in their Faith like me...LOL I'm still prone to silliness.

I'd have no problem sitting across a table from Manning or the Pope and discussing their literature &amp; what I believe to be the Truth of Jesus: My life's walk with Him, progression &amp; regression. I'm grateful &amp; blessed by insights offered in "books" and glady use these as "tools" in my "Garden". We are unique individuals in the Lord's Hand. From His view...very very tiny little ants...each called for His Own Work. So,to ever hold something a man has written in reverence between the Lord &amp; Myself seems dangerous and usually a disappointing thing. Only Jesus is the Word: Only He is Worthy. I must work out my own Salvation in Fear &amp; Trembling...In His Word...which taken in context of Phillipians 2:1-16 (NKJV) is a remarkably awesome, joyous, determined journey <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.


Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Light Bearers

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Do all things without complaining and disputing,that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

[matt_hatter]

Hard and edgy, ruthless trust

It is ironic, there is such a peace in trust. And a discomfort for me now in certitude. I wonder sometimes if I am wired to be certain of everything in life. Where would faith and trust come in?
The WoF stuff amounts to lying, and so much of western church thought is just that, western big mouthed "I'm the cowboy with all the answers and the $$$".
The debate about Manning is interesting. 40 calls some of his mentors eastern mystical thinkers. What the heck is Christianity, but an eastern faith?

It is the west that has polluted it into some trinket religion---I mean how much worse can you get than TBN having a telethon and pulling out some obscure scripture with a reference of 80:12 or something, and telling a bunch of gullible old bluehairs that this means to pledge $80.12 a month? Certain blessing!!!

Give me trust with questions...I will pass on western certitude with purple haired blessings!

[jesusisawesome]

40/40, personally I think we all see in a mirror dimly, and that every living person has blind spots. None of us has the full picture, not Manning, nor anyone other than Jesus Christ himself. What I look for is the heart in a person. 1 Corinthians 13 is a favorite passage of mine from the scriptures. We all see in a mirror dimly, but love never fails. We can have all knowledge, speak with the tongues of men angels, give all of our possessions to the poor and give our bodies to be burned, but if we do not have love, it profits us nothing.

The Pharisees and Saducees and other religious leaders knew the scriptures better than anyone else around . . . their lives were wrapped up in the scriptures. Despite all of this head knowledge, they knew not Christ. They may have had a lot more head knowledge than others (and that is debatable), but it wasn't worth anything because their hearts toward God and their fellow men were really cold. They were puffed in pride and unaware of their own sins.

There can be mentally handicapped children that are closer to God than a Christian man/woman with the IQ of a genius, because it is not just a matter of the head, but also the heart. I'm not advocating that Brennan does or doesn't have all of his ducks lined up theologically, but I see Brennan pointing to Christ. There's a lot that can be debated in the scriptures, but the simplicity of Christ is easy to understand.

Yes, I did serve Phil Bonasso for years, who was the opposite of Brennan Manning. I was not saved through Maranatha, however. It was the love of Christ that drew me and saved me, and gave me the starting foundation in my Christian walk. In my zeal without wisdom, I became a stumbling Galatian and joined Maranatha, but God has been faithful and kept me through all of this.

Sin skews. Who, other than Jesus Christ, has not had their minds darkened through the deception of sin? Jesus Christ alone as a human being can claim all knowledge and perfection.

[sameo]

Nice, JIA!

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi Jia, Well said !
If you are looking for a man, what about Christopher Hitchins. You would love his quick wit, and he does need prayer however.}

[jesusisawesome]

Hi Sameo and Coppertree, thanks for the kind words. Coppertree, I don't think I'm familiar with Christopher Hitchins. What has he written? I'm always looking for new books to read if you can recommend any!

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi Jia,
Well he has a new short bio, on Jefferson, reviewed this last Sunday at Miami Book Festival, Book Tv. He is a prof. at New School in NY, ( can be found at Lindy's) complains too much abut God and Jesus not to be interested. Was on a poetry fest about Thurber for children, on Book Tv, writes for Harper's, Vanity Fair, Oxford grad, sorry if it is Cambridge, new USA citizen. Thinks that our revloution is the last, and only viable one. I think his upcoming book is in response to the mud on his nose about his book and stiring stance for new war in Iraq. Which in all sense is why I think, he is coming out against God. Should be interesting.. as the Bard said ' methinks that he protests, too much.' Good hunting....he would be a plum!!}

[40days40years]

Ruthless Trust is the title of one of Mannings books. In the east they have rat temples, multitudes starving to death. In the east there are many holy men walking around thinking they have "got it". Trust me, they have a lot more religous trinkets then we do! a lot more.

J-2 I think it is quite possible to be depressed and messed up and have a superior theology to someone who appears to have it all together. Truth is truth.

I understand Manning is preaching to the ragamuffins the damaged and that he does not believe in license to sin but he so much pushes your accepted and the message of GRACE that he becomes weak on repentance. I could see why Manning fans might adopt an embrace the sin theology. Manning quotes Fyodor Dostoyevsky when he said about Christ: And he will say to us: "Vile beings, you who are in the image of the beast and bear his mark, but come all the same, you as well". Manning talks about a christian woman who has a child she needs to support and decides to continue working at a brothel in Nevada in one of the richest nations in the world. It is like hey, we will all get it right eventually.

One danger with this way of thinking with this message of relentless grace and acceptance is that it can lead to this type of thinking.

Relentless acceptance = God accepts you = God accepts your sin = Embrace your sin it is part of you and leads you to Christ. This is not exactly a work out your salvation with fear and trembling type of message. I do realize that Manning is not promoting license, he does want folks to be honest with themselves and their sin but this is a mixed message.

Is anyone really a ragamuffin here? The real ragamuffins have been chased off. There can be spiritual elitism I am a ragamuffin I get the message of Jesus. These bible thumpers and pharisees, they don't get it like me and my fellow ragamuffins (we don't judge). You just did, enter fellow pharisees how about a sip of southern comfort.

[mcmstaff78]

I would just point out that theology doesn't save, but Christ does. I would also point out that if one dispenses with the idea of salvation as solely "justification" or forgiveness of sin, but rather a relationship with Christ that transforms a person, spirit, soul and body through the Grace of Christ working in them, one can dispense with the "instantaneously holy" notion that permeates much of American evangelicalism (and I use that term very broadly).

God doesn't accept sin, but He does accept the sinner. We don't get ourselves all nice and clean and THEN come to Christ, we come to Christ to GET clean. We are called, then, to "work out our salvation in fear and trembling" and, through the Grace of God, get the trash cleaned out of our lives. Repentance is a change of heart, a change of mind, a change of direction, but it doesn't mean we have instantly become "holy as God is holy".

And Mattie, I would say "you are not far from the Kingdom of Heaven". http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[john_r_jones]

So 40,
Question remains have you actually read the book?

John

[jesusisawesome]

Nicely said MCM.

As far as the concept of "hospital church" goes, we all needed the patching up . . . Jesus is the best EMT around! He's not just the best EMT . . . He is the cure. :o)

Narrow is the path that leads to life. There are two ditches on either side of the narrow road of life. One ditch is using God's grace as a license to sin, the other ditch is trying to earn our way to heaven through our own efforts and good works. The grace is God is not a license to sin . . . but we all fall short, and only the grace of God and Christ on the cross can bring us home.

[matt_hatter]

40, you post only confirms to me that you don't get Manning's message of grace. You have made several innuendos about some in here who walk "above" the Bible Thumpers, therefore they are Pharasees.

Honestly, you really have no idea how people live their lives daily from their posts on a message board. The message of Grace that has come to me has actually caused me to approach God with much fear and trembling...why would You love me this much...I am a fool and a sinner. It is humbling to the point of scary.

I cannot say this gently, so I will just say it. If you want to present yourself as a "fundie", fine, but I cannot understand why you throw so many bombs and insults at people. It is like you seem to enjoy stirring the dog pile. All it does is stink up the neighborhood. What causes you to do this?

[40days40years]

Yep John been reading the book two of em actually but I do like to jump around books written like this. Actually his later work, The Importance of Being Foolish, How to think like Jesus is far more convicting then Ragamuffin to me anyway I wonder if Manning was trying to address the critics a little with that one and make his message harder hitting? If I had to make EN leaders read one book that might be it. It is basically this is a hospital church and you should be sold out to Christ and not the world or your own ambitions...etc. The writing is a little to flowery and verbose for my tastes though but it is convicting.

Yeah I agree with that JIA and we still want to have a little fun and not be a stick in the mud. I gotcha.

Well mcmstaff I think either your saved or not but sure sanctification comes from having a relationship with Jesus Christ. You said: We don't get ourselves all nice and clean and THEN come to Christ, we come to Christ to GET clean. That is kind of funny because that is what Rice preaches. One of the former EN leaders I think it was LWM complained about this and said Rice was not being to smart (I am being charitable). Rice would say don't come to Jesus until you get the cigarettes and junk out of your life and we are talking EN time not Maranatha.

Hatter there are some serious questions about Manning and his mysticism what am I suppose to say? So his firewall and your firewall in your soul is adequate to keep you out of major theological/spiritual trouble with this eastern stuff. You get some young girl and she starts looking up Mannings sources he quotes favorablly and she starts doing Hindu style/new age prayer techniques? Heaven help her because she most likely will have very eastern revelations. Were all one, Yin and Yang, no absolutes or black and white it's all relative just love Jesus? I will talk more about that later but maybe you to could be more tolerant of traditional beliefs and practices?

This board is not just a big frat party where everybody pats each other on the back and plays nice and talks about nothing controversial. Differant strokes for differant folks I kind of like a Martin Luther or Bill Mack shaking things up a little.

(Message edited by 40days40years on November 21, 2006)

[matt_hatter]

40: I am a member of a Southern Baptist Church. I led my own son in the sinner's prayer. He was baptised in water about a week later to the joy of his parents and grandparents. What could be more traditional than that?

I asked Bill Mack this question twice and never got an answer. What, pray tell, is an acceptable denomination to you? All I got was more stuff about the 17th century. I guess I will ask you the same thing. Are we all to still be in charismatic churches that practice deliverance to fit your view of traditional beliefs? I honestly don't know who you are, what MCM you were in, and where you have ended up on your journey. Knowing this might help me understand you a little better.

Shaking things up is one thing. Stirring the dog pile is another. I wonder sometimes if you might be one of those people who listen to too much talk radio and think that the world around you is always ready for something "controversial". There is a guy like that in our office, we all go the other way as it gets old fast.

[jesusisawesome]

40: Yeah I agree with that JIA and we still want to have a little fun and not be a stick in the mud. I gotcha.

JIA: Actually, I wasn't trying to say this 40. What I was referring to didn't have to do with having a little bit of fun and not being a stick in the mud. Let's see if I can get my tired brain to function right now . . . okay, I'm laughing right now. I am just too tired tonight to go back and try to rephrase. Maybe I will catch you tomorrow after a latte and caffeine have kicked in. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/yawn.gif

[john_r_jones]

Congrats 40 maybe a larger world waits. As to eastern mysticism as I read Manning’s books I began to read the authors listed in his bibliography. I don't see a danger in his writings that you reference in regard to prayer. Richard Foster is an author he referenced about prayer; Foster has a very good book on prayer and touches on contemplative prayer. I would say any practice a young believer engages in not just this form of prayer needs guidance. Evangelism, bible study, spiritual formation all require wisdom and like it or not some form of discipleship. If you're reading Ruthless trust the forward is written by Richard Foster.

As to his latest book, he rewrote and compiled earlier writings in the light of his experience later in life. As I read Ragamuffin gospel I found someone honest as an author. I found it interesting several other Christian authors such as Max Lucado in coming clean about their own personal demons have cited Manning’s example of honesty for their inspiration. As I read this book by Manning I thought how different would Maranatha have been had we grasped these truths.

Finally-for now, the Quotation of Dostoyevsky about come one come all isn't an invitation to water down the Gospel message quite the opposite it impugns our self-righteous efforts to impress God with our self improvement efforts apart from His grace. In my now several years study of his writings and teaching about them in church I've had plenty of scrutiny from the church staff both liberal and conservative. Our local congregation has a tradition of scholarship both in the pulpit and in the adult education activities such as Sunday school. In my class for example there are a couple of PhD’s, a physician and a couple of engineers, so I get challenged on a regular basis when I teach.

One "eastern" author he quotes is Anthony DeMello a Jesuit priest who teaches on awareness as Manning quotes from his writings in his lectures as well as books. I bought a couple of his books and shared them with a couple of friends here on the board, he rocked my world. I am trying to understand and learn that I have much to unlearn from MCM, 40.

John

[matt_hatter]

JRJ:Max Lucado in coming clean about their own personal demons have cited Manning’s example of honesty for their inspiration. As I read this book by Manning I thought how different would Maranatha have been had we grasped these truths.

This was very eye opening to me...Max who I believe is Church of Christ, to come clean about his love affair with beer, knowing the ramifications that may happen within that denomination, was pretty awesome. I recall the same thing, John, it was Manning's example that helped him through.

Thank God Max is still turning out his simple, inspiring reads. I bought one of his devotional books for a secretary in our office who has been struggling lately, she soaked it up like a sponge!

[banshee]

matt_hatter: to come clean about his love affair with beer

"Mmmmm.... Beer."

what's wrong with a love affair with beer? As long as your faithful and don't indulge in wine.

Wait, which one did Paul tell Timothy to drink a little of?

I always liked Max, even though I grew up Southern Baptist, then turned Morning Star. I mean, I know the Church of Christ always had that screwy "no instruments" thing, but Max Lucado is alright in my book (available soon at a bookseller near you).

I think it's instructive to go back to the Old Testament and how they viewed people in "authority" and out. The Old Testament is almost like sitting around listening to a bunch of old ladies on the porch gossipping. NOBODY comes out lilly-white. EVERYBODY is a screw-up. And maybe the New Testament church needs a little of that "We're all alike cause we're human screw-ups" to balance what's turned into "We're following Christ so we all need to pretend we never screw up."

The funny thing is, do you think anyone in the world actually cares? They're going to make fun of you for being "too holy" and they're going to make fun of you for "being a hypocrite". So who are you trying to impress?

[matt_hatter]

Haha you need to go read some of the recent posts on JRJ's thread "whirled peas" on the Cuckoo' Nest.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/25082.html?1161146261

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

40/40: This board is not just a big frat party where everybody pats each other on the back and plays nice and talks about nothing controversial. Differant strokes for differant folks I kind of like a Martin Luther or Bill Mack shaking things up a little.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
It is one thing to talk about controversial issues. It is another thing to approach those controversial issues in an arrogant and/or offensive manner. Your initial post was, frankly, rather rude, and I would guess that turned a lot of people off. Your post #1463, on the other hand, was far more open and honest, and in it you discussed your concerns, your problems, and your experiences with Manning's books rather than just posting a link to some blog and not even giving us the courtesy of telling us whether the opinions advanced on that blog echoed your own opinions.

I think that if you compare the response you received to your first post in this thread to the response following post #1463 you will see that that second (more respectful and open) post stimulated more interesting discussion about Manning's books than your first post did, which mostly resulted in ill will toward you and confusion over where you were coming from.

There is nothing wrong with holding a contrary view toward a given subject, and God could very well have created you as the sort of person who goes against the flow and sees things from a different perspective. However, that does not give you a right to be discourteous to other people. Honestly, I think that you would get more people to listen to you and your opposing point of view if, rather than trying to excuse your adversarial tenor by comparing it to Martin Luther, you instead tried to approached people in a more open and respectful manner.

[john_r_jones]

Thomas Merton as quoted by Brennan Manning had a salient thought which I again wish had been heeded by Maranatha. "If it is God you've found so easily, is it God you've found?" I think in the matter of prayer, contemplative and otherwise it is a matter of personal discipline which he advocates and through the practice and habit of devotion and prayer spiritual formation occurs. So much of modern spirituality is palative it consists of the seeking of relief from something, Jesus in the beatitudes inderstood this. He in my understanding called us to stand in our poverty spiritually and otherwise and seek the Father. Not to disclaim our impoverished state but to reckon ourselves unable to attain, grasp for, or seek through manipulation to gain any standing other than that of a child in expectancy of a Father's love. Jesus unerringly refered to God as Abba not as some unutterable being who found it insulting to be named from the lips of humans as was tradition in the use of YAWEH (vowels added). The one issue which became manifestly clear through <u>The Ragamuffin Gospel</u> is our need to understand God's desire for fellowship with us that His forgiveness preceeds our repentance and that in our childlikeness we are not innocent but incompetent.


Jonesee

(Message edited by john r. jones on November 22, 2006)

[osakadan]

40/40 said: In the east they have rat temples, multitudes starving to death. In the east there are many holy men walking around thinking they have "got it".

In the west we have televangelists and megachurches raking in the millions but still multitudes starving and living on the streets. In the west we have posers on message boards believing they "have it".
I have lived in the east for nigh on 2 decades and have yet to meet any "holy man" with the arrogance that I have seen in Broocks et al, or any other pentecostal preacher, and more often than not, believers.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

40: You said: We don't get ourselves all nice and clean and THEN come to Christ, we come to Christ to GET clean. That is kind of funny because that is what Rice preaches. One of the former EN leaders I think it was LWM complained about this and said Rice was not being to smart (I am being charitable). Rice would say don't come to Jesus until you get the cigarettes and junk out of your life and we are talking EN time not Maranatha.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I'm not sure which part of my statement you say Rice preaches, the "come to Christ to GET clean" or the "get yourself all nice and clean and then come to Christ" because the whole "don't come to Jesus until you get the cigarettes and junk out of your life" is that second part that I don't believe.

Just what do you mean by "saved"? I don't believe "salvation" is a possession. It's certainly not simply the "declaration" of forgiveness or "justification". The evangelical sense of "saved" is pure reductionism compared to what the scriptures teach about salvation. The separation of "justification' and "sanctification" started with Luther, but even he didn't say you could have one without the other, just a way of logically speaking about God's economy of salvation. But the problem is that when you start applying "logic" to relationship, to Grace, to God, you start messing the whole thing up.

When you start looking at the New Testament passages regarding salvation, you realize it encompasses so much more than what is commonly taught in many evangelical circles.

I'll simply close with what our Lord had to say to the Pharisees, "They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Luke 5:32-32) I believe repentance is a lifelong adventure.

God bless!

[matt_hatter]

J2, good post, you said what I want to say without the confounded emotion. You have the brain of a Vulcan, and that's a compliment.

Osakadan, I happened to flip by the Paula White Show today, I know many love her, she is perky and cute and has that Marlboro girl southern accent (hers I think is from all that yelling) so please excuse me if you are a fan.

She has some guy on there who looked like Henry Gibson on "Laugh In" (OK, I am old) and he begans to share this "revelation" from God that is so outlandish, involving the #6. It has to do with the verses that have sixes in them etc. (No thought that man came up with the verse and chapter thing) and that this "Year of 6" will extend until next Easter, as "we operate on the Gregorian calender, but God operates on the Hebrew calender". (HUH? God, our infinite, omnipotent, Creator...needs a Jewish Palm Pilot?)

Sorry to jest, but here is the point...the "teaching" gravitated to prosperity of course, and the "year of 6" conveniently is extended to Easter so the shakedown can continue. Paula was about to need a Depends. I guess I am too jaded, I know.

Give me a man who admits to being a knee walking drunk in desperate need of a Savior anytime.

[speakword2004]

Matt

Is there any coincidence that there are three sixes in your ISP number? Still no luck with the Lotto? Must be God's Grace or something, eh?

[lablady2]

Matt: I run across Paula White on the tube from time to time. Thanks for channeling my thoughts. You scare me.

[matt_hatter]

Hahaha--speak and labby, maybe my ISP is the mark of the beast. I am going to be careful when I buy that dog food at Wal Mart today... if the UCP code has 3 sixes in it, poor Belle ain't gonna get her "fat girl food" (Purina Fit and Trim) and will have to settle for Uncle Sam's 'Ol Roy brand.

Pastor Henry Gibson, help me out here. You say you want $50 bucks first? Forget it. I can finish out the Hebrew year in 'Ol Roy for that amount! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[jesusisawesome]

Okay, I've had some coffee and am semi-awake . . .

40, how you extrapolated "having a little fun and not being a stick in the mud" out of my comments, I really don't see.

To rephrase what I said, God's grace is not a license to sin, and it is a serious thing if anyone assumes this (not something at all to be taken lightly), yet neither can we earn our way to heaven by our own good efforts. The suffering of Christ on the cross and the sheer grace of God are the only way, and to be flippant with the suffering of Christ and think we can just do whatever we want is an affront to God.

[osakadan]

Luckily none of the televangelists have made it to Japan. But always "enjoy" them when I return home. Good for a laugh over a beer.

Not sure what is worse though - the sad people who fall for it or the shysters themselves.

[matt_hatter]

I sit in amazement sometimes watching TBN. I may have to get a Japanese beer in your honor, osakadan, any suggestions?

TBN is offering a ceramic jewelry box for a donation of $25 bucks right now. It has Mary and the "baby Jesus" on top and is truly a trinket that you would see in the road side flea markets of the south. My son usually buys something like this as a joke for his Grandpa every Christmas. The ceramic largemouth bass jumping through a Confederate flag was a classic. We have a cabinet in the Cabin that we put all this crap, fishing pigs, talking fish, etc.

It is sad that I mention these gag gifts and the name of Jesus in the same post, actually. How much can a jewelry box cost to still make a profit on a lousy $25??? Sickening.

[speakword2004]

http://www.armorofgodpjs.com/

Matt

Here's a suggestion for the next Xmas gift.

http://www.shipoffools.com/Gadgets/index.html

[osakadan]

Matt: Not sure if you can get Yebisu (pron. ebisu) stateside but it's one of the best. If not, Asahi Super Dry is at least better than Bud.

Knowing production costs, they could be getting them shipped from China as low as $3 per unit, depending on quantity and if they are many middle men involved. A profit of about $15-22 dollars is a nice little side scam.

[matt_hatter]

Speak, I am "Speakless".
I need a Depends, seriously, Labby and no recycled ones...Sheeshamighty!!!!!

[mdillon]

Hey speak, thanks for the pitch on my armour of god p.j.'s......sales are brisk.

osakadan thank you for the way you bringitonhomenow. and also for the beer tips. mattie, i'm thinking we need to start a 'beer and bible' club.

dilly

[osakadan]

Ship of fools rocks...some great presents there and some other interesting things.

Love this one http://www.shipoffools.com/Lookalikes/39.html

http://www.shipoffools.com/Lookalikes/40.html

Thought it was fake until I checked the "churches" site.

http://www.alm.org.uk

You know something is wrong when they start selling it this way.

(Message edited by osakadan on November 22, 2006)

(Message edited by osakadan on November 22, 2006)

[wisedove]

CAtching up.
Matt,
All UPC codes have 3 unmarked lines representing 6's, one in the beginning of the barcode, middle, and end.

Make it out to mean what you want. I just see it as a system for buying and selling only if you have the mark encoded on your forehead or hand is already in place. EVERY product has this one Universal #, hidden as unmarked lines on the barcode. While individual product numbers vary from each other, this main # is on every one, and it is 666.

As you mentioned about the person on Paula Whites show, some will take this to the extreme and end up being weird with it all. What I shared about the UPC lines up with the prophetic word of God. How else will people be able to not buy and sell unless they have this mark (during the 7 year trib. masked under a 7 year Peace Treaty) if the mark is not in all product codes somehow? It's there. We can mock and joke, but it doesn't change things. My stance is not one of "ooooh, uh-oh, we are in the end times. Shudder..." Praise God He chose us to be alive during this time. Search Him for the reasons why that might be.

[osakadan]

Dove, I don't doubt your sincerity but.....

Can it not just be that barcodes are designed with the simple intention of cataloging and distributing goods?

[wisedove]

Absolutely. Here's my thought, though. Why have hidden, unmarked lines representing 3- 6's which makes all products have something in common? Why not mark those lines? Why are they hidden? Why is that the only thing ALL products have in common?

In case you didn't see the reference i posted a link to on another thread which got this topic started, here's a link describing the unidentified 3 "LONGER" sets of two lines which represent a 6.

http://www.av1611.org/666.html

[wisedove]

Pull items off your shelves and check it out for yourself. I'm not trying to be an alarmist. I DO want to share info. that I feel lines up with prophetic events in the Word reguarding the end times. Search these things out for yourselves, let the Holy Spirit confirm them.

[mcmstaff78]

Well, the following comes from Snopes...<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

THE EAN-13 barcode system is used in 85 countries, making it the most popular product scanning system of its kind in the world. It works by representing numbers as a series of seven vertical lines. Each of the seven lines is either black or white, and the sequence of lines forms a pattern which is recognized as a particular digit when scanned by a computer. Every product is assigned a unique thirteen-digit number (ten digits for the product itself, a check digit, and a couple of flag characters to indicate which organization assigned the number).

Contrary to popular myth, no bar code includes the number 666. This belief arose because the number six is represented by a pattern similar to that of the guard bars used to mark the beginning, middle, and end of every bar code. Since the guard bars always appear three times in a given bar code, people who mistakenly read them as sixes claimed that the pattern 6-6-6 was embedded in every bar code. However, if you look closely at the '6' in a bar code, you will see that there is a wide white bar either to the left or the right of its pattern (depending upon where within the bar code the number is positioned), which is not the case with the guard bars. The only numbers on the bar code which are scanned are those shown in the conventional numerals underneath it.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>You can see the original here (http://www.snopes.com/business/alliance/barcode.asp).

I will simply add that in Orthodox teaching, the acceptance of the mark must be joined with a conscious denial of Christ and the acceptance of the law of Antichrist. IOW, you won't get the mark by being tricked or deceived into it.

(Message edited by MCMStaff78 on November 22, 2006)

[wisedove]

Once again,
Ask the Holy Spirit to enlighten you.

[wisedove]

I'm not saying that each product will scan the 6's. The 3 6's are the UNIVERSAL hidden number tying all products together under the system that is being put into place RIGHT NOW for when the antichrist rules during the 7 year "tribulation."

[wisedove]

Of course there will be two explanations. Just as there are True Believers of the one TRUE God, and people who refuse to beleive in Him and His Son or Holy Spirit.

There are always the true and the false. True Christ, false Christ (s), true Prophets, False Prophets.

which story lines up with the prophetic events of our time? Which story lines up with the Word of God? Bring the cashless society into play. we are there. The ground-work is being laid for the system of the Antichrist to take his rule.

[osakadan]

I much prefer to believe the conspiracy theory that the barcode system was designed by management to make large chunks of labour obsolete, and be rid of the associated problems of labour management, and to reduce costs. And so that they can raise prices with the press of a few buttons, rather than change all those price tags.

(Message edited by osakadan on November 22, 2006)

[wisedove]

Whether what I posted about the product code thing will prove to be true or not, it really doesn't matter to me. I will be gone either by natural death or will be part of the rapture, and won't have to worry about the mark thing. The signs are around us, that's all I am trying to bring to a focus.

Many signs point to the fact that the tribulation is near, thus, Jesus is coming back, first, i believe, to take the Bride to an awesome wedding feast, then, the actual 2nd coming will be to put a stop to Satan's shenanigans on the earth after the trib.

[osakadan]

Belief or not in the rapture aside Dove, it does matter about the product code as you are almost peddling this as if an absolute truth.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

dove: Ask the Holy Spirit to enlighten you.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> I'm sorry, this type of response is crap. I could easily say the same thing to you, Dove. This, to me, demonstrates the biggest thing wrong with Pentecostalism/Charismaticism - a subjectivistic orientation that elevates my personal experience/sense of the "Holy Spirit" above that of reason, intellect, differing scriptural interpretations and Church tradition. I would suggest that not every spirit that you think is the Holy Spirit is, in fact, so.

[wisedove]

Not to belittle the signigicance, here, osaka, just (nice restaraunt name here, btw-OSAKA-great hibachi grill) that it isn't meant to put an unholy fear in people, and that it won't affect those who will be raptured up. We are to tarry until He returns. We are to buy food, and products, etc, and go about our daily lives.

Whether it is true (and I definitely choose (emphasis on choose) to believe that it is, because I believe the Word of God and it all makes sense to me, does not mean i should walk in any kind of fear about it. i just want to throw the information out there for others to ponder, and if you are saved, ask the Holy Spirit to confirm these things to you. He will give you a peace about them.

I didn't mean to be confusing in my post above about it not mattering to me. I only shared that from a personal level, that it won't matter to me, because I won't be here for the trib.
That is, if I understand the pre-trib. rapture thing.

I shared WHY i believe the "snatching away" will be BEFORE the 7-year trib. which begins when the 7 year peace treaty is signed with Israel led by the Antichrist. If it were to take place mid-trib, we would have a precise time to know when it would take place, based on the signing of the 7 year peace treaty that will be broken mid way by the anti-christ.

The Word is clear that we do not know when this day will be.

If it were to be post-trib. we would also have a precise time to know when it was going to take place. Therefore, the rapture seems to have to take place BEFORE the signing of the 7 year peace treaty with Israel, and this may be closer than we know, for a man is already in power ready to present "a" peace plan with Israel as early as Jan.

[mcmstaff78]

Actually, scripture simply says no man knows the "hour or the day". Our Lord Himself said we were to read the signs of the times. I suggest a careful reading of Matthew 24 is in order.

[wisedove]

http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/comprehensive_peace.html

http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/solanas_new_enp.html

these two links tell more about this 7 year agreement with Israel set to be considered in Jan.

[wisedove]

http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/herbs_date_setting.html

This site is a new one to me that I came across as I have done research on Javier Solana.
This is a more recent entry on that site. It is interesting, at least. More to chew on, for those interested in these events.

[wisedove]

mcm. I agree! God had me read Matt. 24 before bed last night, and 25. Thanks.

[wisedove]

on a much lighter note, my precious daughter out of the blue the other night said, "Is Jesus really coming back here to get us?"
Yes, I responded.

"Will I see Him?"
Yep! You sure will.

"Will we get to play in my room?"
Oh, you can do that right now. you don't need to see Him to talk to Him and play in your room.

"O.k., I think I'll do that tomorrow."
O.K.

[matt_hatter]

Dovie, I see you as a very sincere person, but some of your posts seem naive. I don't know how long you have been a believer, but 15-20 yrs ago, charismatics were warning people to avoid grocery stores with those new fangled scanners, as they will accept the mark of the beast by going there. Now, there is not a major chain store in America that does NOT check you out this way. It is the same mumbo-jumbo today, just taken to the next level.

Let me ask you, if the Holy Spirit has revealed this UCP stuff to some prophet, and you are a believer (not saying you are, but you seem to lean that way) why are the believers in the revelation still shopping? Why is TBN taking credit cards? Either it is to be believed or not.

It just seems so shallow that we listen to these revelations, and then tell others to "ask the Holy Spirit to enlighten you" as you have somehow gotten the truth and others are in the dark.

It is this "subjective orientation that elevates my personal experience/sense of the "Holy Spirit" above that of reason, intellect, differing scriptural interpretations and Church tradition" (78)that has caused me to reject the nonsense of the charismatic world.

I am not trying to belittle your beliefs Dove, we just see things differently, I love you as a sister in the Lord. I just have come out of the whole Maranatha experience much more cautious about this "The Lord told me, The Lord showed me" mentality.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

dove: mcm. I agree! God had me read Matt. 24 before bed last night, and 25. Thanks.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>You're welcome. What did you take away from your reading of those two chapters? Particularly, do you not see how Christ destroys the notion of a "pretribulation rapture" with the following words?

<font color="ff0000">Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.</font>(Matthew 24:25-33)

[wisedove]

Matt,
As a believer (Christian) I beleive we are living in the last days as prophecied in God's Word. I got saved at age 8, in High school and college I backslid terribly, and rededicated my life to Jesus in 1993.

It is foolish not to shop, buy and sell, and use debit cards, etc. I don't fall into that category of people who felt the way you described above. I'm only saying that I beleive the system is in place for the antichrist to come on the scene and when he does, during the fake peace plan for 7 years, people will have to choose to follow Him and take the Mark which will allow them to buy and sell, or they will have to choose Christ, not take the mark, be martyred, go to heaven, or make it through the trib. somehow without taking the mark, and will be ushered into the milinneal kingdom when Jesus Comes back for the 2nd time to this earth to rule and reign for those 1000 years.

Don't reject hearing from the Lord just because of your negative experiences with Maranatha. While in EN, this mindset was still prevalent, that we cannot hear from God for ourselves. God desires a relationship with each of us. He speaks in many different ways. I have peace when I seek Him for an answer or revelation about something. Then, I have a "check" that it is from Him. Peace, true peace, will be there.

I didn't even suggest originally that any of this UPC stuff was revealed to a prophet. As to why some ministries do what they do, well, only God can judge, I use credit cards and debit cards. I don't claim that those who do so are doomed. That is rediculous. All I am saying is that the system is in place...

[mcmstaff78]

Consider these three verses:

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:31)

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:52)

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

It should be quite obvious that they all refer to the same event. The event as described by our Lord in Matthew explicitly occurs after the "tribulation" (see verse 28). Consequently, the "catching up" is at the Lord's Second Return, which will be as "lightning which cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west".

If one rejects that interpretation, than one must explain how there are more trumpets after the "last trump" (1 Cor. 15:52).

(Message edited by MCMStaff78 on November 22, 2006)

[wisedove]

Matthew 24


24:3 The Olivet Discourse is the fifth and last great discourse in Matthew (chs. 24; 25), so named because of the location of its delivery on the Mount of Olives overlooking Jerusalem. It is given its most extensive form in Matthew (cf. Mark 13:1-37; Luke 21:5-36). Three questions have been raised by the disciples: (1) When is the destruction of Jerusalem prophesied by Jesus to take place? (2) What will be the sign of Christ’s coming? (3) What signs will foreshadow the “end of the age”? The first query is given less attention than the last two. The coming destruction of Jerusalem, which was accomplished by the Roman general Titus in a.d. 70, is pictured along with the course of the entire age in 24:5-28. However, even this is clearly viewed by Jesus as a foreshadowing of the fateful days of the Great Tribulation period. The greater portion of the material relates to the awesomeness of those days.

24:6 Jesus anticipates warfare as a way of life throughout the present age. He cautions the disciples not to be unduly alarmed by these necessities, for the end is not yet.

24:15 The terminology “abomination of desolation” is found in Dan 9:27; 11:31; 12:11. This text is one of the clearest examples in Scripture of a prophecy with multiple fulfillment. (1) The first reference is to Antiochus (IV) Epiphanes, who reigned in Syria from 175 to 164 b.c. Antiochus halted the sacrifices in the temple and defiled the temple by raising up an idol, a pagan altar to Zeus. (2) Jesus seems to have in view, at least typically, the near destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in a.d. 70 by the Roman general Titus. That Christians of that time so understood this prediction is evidenced by the fact that many followed the command of vv. 16-18 and fled to the mountains during the Roman invasion and siege. (3) Daniel and Jesus, and even Paul (cf. 2 Thess 2:2-4) and John (cf. Rev 13:14, 15), see a future eschatological and ultimate fulfillment in the actions of the Antichrist during the Tribulation (Rev. 6-19), also identified as Daniel’s Seventieth Week (Dan 9:24-27). In Dan 9:26, 27 it becomes apparent that a reenactment of Antiochus’ treacherous desecration will occur when “the prince who is to come” (v. 26) makes a seven-year covenant with Israel (v. 27). The “prince” who is the Antichrist (Paul’s “man of sin” and John’s sea “beast”) breaks his covenant after three and one-half years. There follow the desecration of the temple, great persecution of Israel, and the more severe judgments of the Tribulation. This chapter then is a further description of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, and in a number of instances parallels the sixth chapter of Revelation, as the accompanying chart, “Abomination of Desolation,” shows.





(Message edited by wisedove on November 22, 2006)

[wisedove]

24:22 The shortening of those days could not reflect the fall of Jerusalem in a.d. 70. The Tribulation period is clearly in view. That period is strictly limited by God for the elect’s sake. This world, bent on self-destruction, would finally succeed in destroying itself if God did not intervene. The Tribulation is climaxed by the glorious return of Christ to establish His millennial throne (vv. 27, 29-31; Rev 19:11-20:6). This coming will be visible to all men even as lightning is seen across the face of the sky (cf. Acts 1:9-11).

24:29-31 The culmination of the Tribulation brings its darkest hour. At the intervention of Christ from heaven, the elect will be gathered by the angels from the ends of the earth.

24:34 The key word in this verse is “generation,” which can mean a period of anywhere from 30 to 100 years. Several possible explanations for the text are available: (1) Generation (genea, Gk.) refers to Israel as a nation and guarantees her perpetuity until the end times. (2) Generation may mean “age” or “time period” and therefore is a reference to the dispensation of grace. (3) Finally, genea may carry its more usual meaning of 30 years. If the latter is the case, then Jesus is saying that one generation would not have passed until all of these signs begin to be fulfilled.

24:36 The exact time of Christ’s coming is not to be the concern of God’s people (cf. also Jesus’ parting words in Acts 1:6-8). That Christ, in His humiliation (incarnation), was not aware of the time is not a denial of His deity, but an evidence of His functional subordination and temporary surrender of the use of certain attributes while living a life of faith and dependence upon the Father.

24:37-38 Noah’s day was characterized by preoccupation with trivial matters and neglect of spiritual concerns. Oblivious to the judgment of God, the inhabitants of the earth were caught unprepared by the Flood. Such a state of unpreparedness will exist when Jesus returns.

24:39-42 The context of the passage would seem to indicate that the judgment of Christ’s return and not the rapture of the church is in view. The “one taken” (vv. 40, 41) is taken in judgment; the one remaining is blessed to enter with the Lord into kingdom blessings. Indeed, the rapture of believers (1 Thess 4:13-18), it would seem, is not discussed in Matt. 24; 25.

[wisedove]

the above is from the Believer's Study Bible.

I agree that Matt. 24 speaks of Christ's second coming, not the rapture.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Me: I'm sorry, this type of response is crap...<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I just wanted to apologize for this comment as I think it is unduly harsh. There are certainly better ways to have made my point. Please forgive me.

[wisedove]

The Olivet Discourse came after Jesus spoke of something significant in Matt. 23:39. I think what He described here in this verse, He goes into detail about in Matt. 24.
"I tell you this, you will never see me again until you say 'bless the one who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

[wisedove]

Mcm,
Ironically, I missed that comment until you pointed it out! Forgiven, though!hehehehe

[wisedove]

MCM,
Do you agree that the Rapture is an event with no prophetic signs leading up to it before it must occur? I believe it is an "any-moment, signless event. I think the Word is clear about all of the signs listed that must occur before the tribulation and second coming takes place.

Daniel, Matt. 24-25, and Revelation relate to the second coming of Christ to the earth, not the Rapture.

[matt_hatter]

Dove, the thing I am pointing out is that it is not you who suggested the UCP thing. I actually heard "prophets" tell us to stay away from scanner stores, unless you want to get sucked in to the antichrist system. It just continues...my Mom, who is A/G, stored up water and canned goods for the great computer crash of the year 2000, all based on "prophecy" from her TV shows...she has since wised up, and rarely watches things like TBN.

"Hearing from the Lord", as described in the charismatic world, is stuff like I posted this morning on the Paula White show. I know you read my blog...it is with much sincerity that I wish to hear the leadings of Christ for me and my family. I only reject the nonsense that has emerged in what I call the trinket church. My experiences in Maranatha have not jaded me towards God, just the stupid, and I mean STUPID revelations of man.

[mcmstaff78]

No, the "rapture" is part of the second coming of Christ. It cannot be otherwise unless the phrase "last trump" is meaningless.

BTW, I think you're missing more of my posts. See my post 466 above that compares the pertinent scriptures and makes this point.

(Message edited by mcmstaff78 on November 22, 2006)

[matt_hatter]

I have a gentle request. Some of us may not be real interested in Bible study-end times discussions. My UPC post got this started I think, so I am partly responsible. Reading long posts from some Bible Study interpretation of end time events causes me to scroll very quickly.

Dovie, how about starting a new thread to continue the discussion elsewhere...just a thought.

The discussion on the Ragamuffin gospel was getting good. No offense y'all, just not my cup of tea.

[wisedove]

Matt,
I apologize if my comment about the Holy Spirit enlightening you (generally speaking) sounded elitist. That was Sooo not my heart. It is with all sincerity that I believe He enlightens us to truth.

Perhaps this can be taken up on another thread. If I don't get around to starting one, I'll watch for it...It's also O.K. that you scroll quickly over something that is not of interest to you. I do it all the time as well. No biggie.

[wisedove]

Also, can you explain how you thought this thread was getting good before I got on this rampage? There seemed to be a lot of silly comments that had nothing to do with the rag. gospel prior to all of the latest infor. here about the end times and the UPC code thing.

[pilgrim]

wisedove,

You wrote:" Therefore, the rapture seems to have to take place BEFORE the signing of the 7 year peace treaty with Israel, and this may be closer than we know, for a man is already in power ready to present "a" peace plan with Israel as early as Jan".

I am hoping for the time to be delayed because like you already know I do NOT believe that Christians will escape the tribulation.

I personally believe that the saints will be the temple of the Holy Spirit during the tribulation and they will be guided by the Holy Spirit in the same way as in the present time.

I believe that we can not live a Holy life on our own strength. Christians during the tribulation will need the guidance of the Holy Spirit more than ever. The bible does not say that the Holy Spirit will taken away from the saints in the last days.John14:16 The Holy Spirit will be with us for ever.
Mark13:9-11 the Holy Spirit will be with the saints during the tribulation.
I believe that saints during the tribulation will also be saved by grace they will wash their clothes the blood of the Lamb, will overcome by the word of their testimony and the blood of Lamb. Read Revelation 12:11 , Revelation 7:14.

I am posting another post tribulation rapture website.

http://www.velocity.net/~edju/


http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/

Please note there are two resurrections that will happen in the future and are mentioned in the New Testament the resurrection to life for believers which occurs at the rapture and the resurrection of the damned when the unrepentant are judged and sent to the lake of fire (not Hell because even Hell is thrown into the lake of fire). See Revelation 20:4-5 believers who did not take the Mark of the Beast in the foreheads or the hands were included in the first resurrection. This scripture shows us that Christians will go through the tribulation.
Christians who do not take the mark of the beast in the hand or forehead will not receive God wrath Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 16:2, but they will be persecuted by the kingdom of the antichrist. Rev 13:5-9 and the false church/religion. Rev18:24.

With a lot of love in Christ,
pilgrim

[matt_hatter]

Don't care to argue about it dovie but I will say this: The whole silly stuff related to the great contrast of the simplicity of Manning's grace message and the horrible tackiness that seems so prevalent in the church today. Seeing "Armor of God" PJ's confirms in my mind a need to seek a deeper contemplative relationship with God.

I'll bet, however, without looking, you can't recall the specific dissertations of all you posted. Minutiae comes in many forms.

The end times Bible Study is one of them, forgive me, and I may need prayer, but just my opinion.

It is a thread that seems to have generated some interest, the old Gen. Chat folder has been dormant a long time...just a suggestion.

[lablady2]

Dove, maybe you don't realize it, but you use the term "mock" in several of your posts. Just because someone doesn't agree with your particular take on an issue doesn't mean they are mocking the Bible, Christianity, Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it means they just interpret something in a different way. Just my thoughts.

[lablady2]

I have trouble reading large chunks of printed material in cut and paste form no matter who posts it or why. It may just be my decrepit (sp) eyes, but I tend to scroll over it. I will never be a fan of watching movies or reading entire books on line.

I find it easier to read posts that reference a scripture but reflect that the poster has put some genuiune thought and insight into a subject. I don't get that from unoriginal, cut/pasted material that is continued over 4-5 sections.

I agree that a separate thread for in depth, paste and cut discussions of a particular subject might be just the ticket.

[pilgrim]

mcstaff78,

Thank you for writing the following verses.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:31)

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:52)

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

It should be quite obvious that they all refer to the same event. The event as described by our Lord in Matthew explicitly occurs after the "tribulation" (see verse 28). Consequently, the "catching up" is at the Lord's Second Return, which will be as "lightning which cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west".

mcmstaff78, I can see in the same way as yourself that all the above verses refer to the same event,"the catching up of the saints" i.e the second coming which some people call the rapture.
Rapture is a word used by christians to describe the second coming of Christ in the clouds of heaven and the saints meeting him in the air.Acts 1:11 also refers to this event.

Jesus will defeat the antichrist and start the millennium in the earth after this event Rev 19:11-13. The confusion arises because some people also called this event which happens after the marriage supper rev 19:7-10, second coming. I think that to avoid confusion I will call the event described in Rev 19:11-13 third coming.

Blessings
pilgrim

[matt_hatter]

Speak:
"Matt
Here's a suggestion for the next Xmas gift."

You know my friend, we have had some arguments about what is 'real' football. I have finally relented. Instead of playing this American sissy stuff with helmets and pads, I will encourage my son with this gift to learn the real game of futball.

http://www.shipoffools.com/Gadgets/Toys/114.html

Like I said, I am dumbfounded. No wonder I like an honest drunk author who walks with a spiritual limp. Lord have mercy on these money changers!!!!

Matt

[banshee]

Ugh, can't UPC codes just be the most efficient way of dealing with thousands of products being distributed across a country of 300 Million people? I prefer to just stick to the most rational explanation.

And this system's going to bring about the AntiChrist? the one where the poor girl at the register has to swipe my milk over the sensor once, twice, three times? And when nothing comes up, she looks at me and asks "Do we carry this?" then stares around blankly for a manager?

If Barney Fife is the Anti-Christ then, yes, this system will produce him. ;)

Now, if you excuse me, I need to go to my magical horseless carriage which is powered by the black elixir of the gods and go down to the Big Box Temple, where I will make many offerings upon the throne of Lord Visa and his consort Card International.

[lablady2]

Rational? Rational?

What....is....this....rational?

[matt_hatter]

"And this system's going to bring about the AntiChrist? the one where the poor girl at the register has to swipe my milk over the sensor once, twice, three times? And when nothing comes up, she looks at me and asks "Do we carry this?" then stares around blankly for a manager?"}

Ahhhh....another hint! You lied. You live in Alabama.

[lablady2]

If the girl has to call customer service to come to her register to confirm that the mysterious item in the plastic produce bag is indeed ginger root ("I never seen that before") then, my friend, you may be in Kentucky.

[banshee]

lablady2: What....is....this....rational?

From the people who brought you Nexium, Verizon, and Flozium, Rational! Clear blue skies! Waves of green grass! Warning: Rational may cause interdenominational distrust. Can cause liver failure. May be hazardous if you are nursing, pregnant, or human.

Sorry, I made that up. Rational is a false god that arose in the 17th century. He was discovered by the self-proclaimed prophet Newton, who claimed to be struck on the head by a golden apple. His religion gained a large following until the latter 20th century, when an offshoot of Newton’s followers who worshipped a rainbow-colored Apple came out with an electronic representation of the great prophet. This ”Newton“ was decisively exposed as a fraud by the prophet Matt Groening, who showed that writing ”Beat up Martin“ into a ”Newton“ would turn into ”Eat up Martha“. After this, belief in the god Rational dwindled until he was declared dead by a man on an internet message board going by the name digi-Nietzsche late in 1999. We now live in the grand and glorious 21st century where computers are again magical boxes of wonder and government satellites track our whereabouts using little magnetic strips in twenty dollar bills!

[flo1151]

flozium,

Did someone call

[matt_hatter]

how about flonase? That's a goodun too. Especially with a snoze like mine.

You picked a good nickname flo.

You said you caught some spanish. Any kings?

[sameo]

flo, I didn't get any mail from you?!! hmm...

[flo1151]

sameo,

will try again, although it was Monday and the mail has lost some of its timing.

flo

[matt_hatter]

speak: "Reading 2 of Mannings books did not inspire me into monkish navelgaving and neither have I been converted into a mantra chanting mystic. Instead I have had my suspicion confirmed that the half-life of works persists in modern day Christianity to our detriment. Authentic Christian works are the expression of the individual believer and not the micro-managed mantlepiece trophies of the modern mega church. Instead Christian works are the natural outflow of a life centered in Christ Jesus to his obedience and worship.

Reading back over the posts regarding the topic, I thought this was an important idea. And the whole area of the trinket church (with great examples on this thread) show just how far we have strayed from works as "the natural outflow of a life centered on Christ".

It is like the church is caught up in the need to worship what has been created (mega-churches, 'sharps', etc) instead of the Creator. The silly trinkets noted on this thread tend to support my argument; replacing that urge to center our lives around Him with the trappings of religion.

Manning, IMHO, has done a wonderful job of helping me return to the heart of the matter, the personal relationship just between God and me, resulting in a true natural outflow of eternal gifts, not ceramic junk.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

pilgrim: Jesus will defeat the antichrist and start the millennium in the earth after this event Rev 19:11-13. The confusion arises because some people also called this event which happens after the marriage supper rev 19:7-10, second coming. I think that to avoid confusion I will call the event described in Rev 19:11-13 third coming.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I would suggest that if you read Rev. 19 and 20 in context, you'll see that the "millenium" is actually the Church age. Notice carefully Rev. 20:4, "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. These are the "souls", the saints who reside now in the presence of God, not resurrected believers. In the next two verses we read "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

We could go on, but as I've said in earlier posts, you can see that I moved from a pre-trib, pre-millenialist in those early Hal Lindsey days (mid-seventies) to post-trib pre-millenialism, to pre-wrath pre-millenialism (a modified mid-trib view), to post-millenialism to, finally, amillenialism. (I also looked a Preterism in it's various forms at one point, but could never quite buy into it.)

Okay, I'm done discussing eschatology (well, maybe) since Mattie is getting restless with the discussion. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif Let's suffice to say that I am fully convinced the Church will be here for the reign of the antichrist and the Great Tribulation and that the "rapture" is part and parcel of the Second Coming of Christ and that there is no secret coming to "snatch" away believers in a great escape.

(Message edited by mcmstaff78 on November 23, 2006)

[matt_hatter]

Haha, no prob, 78, btw, dovie did start a new thread for all who are interested in singing "I'll see you in the rapture" by the Three Amigos or whatever their name was that Jim and Tammy had on all the time.

[pilgrim]

matt_hatter,

Thank you for being so patience with us!
You wrote, It just continues...my Mom, who is A/G, stored up water and canned goods for the great computer crash of the year 2000, all based on "prophecy" from her TV shows...she has since wised up, and rarely watches things like TBN.

The false prophecy of the millenium bug was unbiblical and many of us believed these false prophets but now I hopefully learnt not to listen to false reconstructionist prophets.

The prophecy written in Revelation 13:16-18 is in the bible and I believe that one day it will happen.

I hope that after this message you can still be patience with me.


wisedove and mcmstaff78,

I have recently read these interesting websites the chart is still under construction what do you think?

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emcd/TheFrontOfIt.pdf

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emcd/TheFrontOfIt.htm

Blessings

pilgrim

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All
I sold log homes with a freebie that year consisting of one year supply of 2000 products of food and water and other needed things cache, that only a few knew about... He, he eh One would be me. We brought them from the Mormans}

[wisedove]

Pilgrim,
I'm not sure what to think about them, exactly! I find it rather interesting, though. Scary, too. All of those groups are severely deceived...that's my thought right now. The masons, etc. All of them.
Dove

[matt_hatter]

Pilgrim and all, please feel free to post anything you wish to talk about, it was wrong of me to stifle your conversations. I am not one to care about thread order, so y'all post what is on your heart. Sorry if I made anyone feel unwelcome on this thread.

[mcmstaff78]

Well, just a quick perusal (I mean really quick) seems to show this is a conspiracy theory site along the vein of the "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" book of the early 70s and the John Birch Society. Conspiracy theories are, by definition, irrefutable. Any evidence one uses to counter the theory is simply turned on it's head to be evidence that the theory is true. Having gone through that in the late 70s, early 80s, (after having been introduced to "None Dare Call it Conspiracy" by Mark Caulk on a visit to Knoxville when I was at M'boro) I've found it is not a productive way to live one's life.

[john_r_jones]

So,
I'll add a final thought here I believe <u>The Ragamuffin Gospel</u> is a dangerous book. It unearthed in me much false pretense, fear, posturing, and spiritual cosmetics that I've discovered are offensive to God. In short twenty-odd years of a spiritual dynamic based in unreality were swept away and I was left standing there just me and the Father. No nothing other than my me-ness, no world domination theology, stacks of good works, complicated fabrications of virtue, or fantasies of adequecy, just my self before God. The sun came out and I experienced something profoundly freeing; God liked the way He made me.

John

[matt_hatter]

And with a nice follow up:
"Christianity is not primarily a moral code but a grace-laden mystery; it is not essentially a philosophy of love but a love affair; it is not keeping rules with clenched fists but receiving a gift with open hands."
Ragamuffin Gospel

[40days40years]

I have been thinking about this lately so here goes. O.K if your born again already and making an effort not to sin I think the book is good even though I think Manning is to cozy with the eastern prayer techniques rooted in Hindu practices.

I am just more concerned about the message Manning gives to the next generation coming later who has not accepted Christ yet. Kind of like it is all good Jesus loves you and that is it. I had that in a spritually dead church as a kid and it did not take. Some hardcore EN/MCM types saying your a sinner repent and explaining that Lord means master. Well I am just saying there is a place for soft and fluffy but the Lord can use a tough message also. Lets call it tough love.

[40days40years]

Oh and just to clarify I was just saying there is a place for a strong gospel message some how I did not complete the above post, ooops and I can't edit it. Yeah some need a loving message but some do need a time to repent message. Not to say that Manning does not preach a cling to Jesus message but I could see how some might miss that message with the emphasis on hyper grace. I guess were all in need of hyper grace but you know what I am saying.

I am not defending EN but I am just saying that remember Jesus said about the pharisees something like do as they say but don't do as they do. I think that applies to EN leaders to when they tell people to repent and come to Jesus.

[bgmark2]

Gods grace is amazing, but if you think you will be saved without the Holy Spirit first, you have been decieved by the son of perdition (http://jesus-survival.com/son-of-perdition-revealed.htm)