Jesus Camp and EN part 2 [Archive]

blueboy96

10-17-2006, 06:27 PM

Don't know if you guys saw this in the flame war--but I've had a look at Fischer's Web site.

http://www.kidsinministry.com

This woman is HARDCORE Latter Rain. I can't say that she's much cleaner theologically than EN, even though her setup isn't nearly as authoritarian. Only makes my heart break for those poor kids even more.

I saw this film on the Sunday after it premiered--and I came away thinking the same thing that I thought about Waymaker and KPIC. Becky Fischer had a tremendous opportunity on her hands--and fumbled it away.

One of the things that has always befuddled me to this day about Waymaker is that when I was at Carolina, it was the only even remotely integrated Christian group there. They had a chance to break away completely from their Maranatha roots and be a real force for good in Chapel Hill. But they didn't--and I'm beginning to think they couldn't.

It's almost the same deal with Fischer and Co. While her ministry's mission couldn't be loftier on paper, all she's doing is indoctrinating these poor kids in Kingdom Now claptrap. Nothing about getting out of your comfort zone to reach out to people who are really hurting--all it seems to be about with her is getting these kids to put more notches in their Bibles.

And look at Fischer. Her hair's cut really short ... remember, we're talking about a fourth-generation Pentecostal here. Levi too ... long hair. Another flashback to KPIC days--I saw a lot of people there who didn't fit the "cloned Christian" stereotype. Sadly, that seems to be one way KPIC attracted people--those who didn't look like the kind of people you'd expect to see at pentecostal and charismatic churches.

Sad, sad, sad.

(Message edited by Blueboy96 on October 17, 2006)

j2theperson

10-17-2006, 07:09 PM

Ms. Fisher seems to be selling some interesting items in her online store (http://www.kidsinministry.com/OnlineBookstoreEnter.html).

Dancing Feet (http://kidsinministry.com/OnlineResources/DancingFeet.html)

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Dancing and physical expressive movement was the topic of these workshops taught by Carol Koch at the 2006 Extreme Prophetic Workshop for Kids. She did an outstanding job of teaching the children to allow God to speak to them through music and show them what types of physical movement to release. You will hear children's testimonies of how they followed the leading of the Holy Spirit, and what they were sensing and feeling they were accomplishing by their obedience.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
That just seems weird to me--the idea that there are somehow holy or prophetic physical movements you can make. What could possibly be the point?

Hands Made For War (http://kidsinministry.com/OnlineResources/HandsMadeForWar.html)

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

A single DVD that shows how to teach children prophetic drumming for the purpose of participating in worship and intercession. Valerie does an outstanding job of working with young drumming enthusiasts, which showed in the final night of the Extreme Prophetic Conference in 2006. This is a very unusual, yet effective tool in hearing and following the leading of the Holy Spirit.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
How could drumming possibly be an effective tool for hearing, much less following, the Holy Spirit? Drumming is cool...but it's not that cool.

Extreme Prophetic Conference for Kids (http://kidsinministry.com/OnlineResources/Indescribable.html)
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

This set of three DVDs are of the evening services at the 2006 Extreme Prophetic Conference for Kids. Guest speaker Stacey Campbell leads the children in learning to pray the Bible. Becky Fischer teaches them the importance of not just hearing, but also obeying the voice of God. Finally the third night, which is the culmination of the conference, shows the incredible explosive intercession and warfare the children engaged in praying for their generation to come into their destiny. It was during this meeting the children played a part in bringing a dead baby back to life again!<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
What do they mean by "learning to pray the Bible"?

The "importance of not just hearing, but also obeying the voice of God" sends up definite flags for me.

And, of course, I would like to know exactly what "part" they played in raising a baby from the dead. (But I don't want to know enough to shell out $42.)

mcmstaff78

10-17-2006, 07:29 PM

I haven't read a lot about this stuff in a long time, but it seems to be this approach is quite paganistic. What this stuff seems to be doing is training kids to be open to familiar spirits. The mind, the reason, is the gatekeeper to our soul. When we learn to bypass that gatekeeper, we open ourselves to many things that are not of God. This is shamanistic not Godly!

robert_unknown

10-17-2006, 07:42 PM

i watched this one: VIDEO (http://livedigital.com/content/52110)

i am confused. hte prayer of the girl, which seems to be the dominant prayer on the video, sounds so familiar to the prayers of the grwon ups, that i have heared for so many years.

is she really praing it from her heart?
is she just praying what she heared?
where did she hear it? at home? at the camp?

i am confused. my son is nearly 6, and he does not pray like this. des he need to pray like this? will this change the world?

or the black boy on the picture. in a suit, holding his bible. is this the thing God needs to change the world? how does he change the world? by us making little mini-me´s out of our kids?

strange. very strange.

if its really God who is doing it - wonderfull. but in my opinion, well, to be honest, its a performance rather than something real.

but i am open for other opinions.

edit: another question: what are the violent pictures good for? stoning, whipping, burning at the stake? and kids praying. and people burning american flags? what the heck is this all about?

jbkrems

10-17-2006, 10:55 PM

Robert:

I watched the video you linked to. I didn't see anything wrong with it.

I think the girl really was praying from her heart, and if so, she heard it from the Holy Spirit, not from someone at home or at camp.

Should your son pray like she did in the video? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe you should ask the Lord how HE liked to be prayed to?

I thought some of the pictures in the video were a bit graphic and overdone. However, I think the video was moving enough to get people to pray, because PRAYER WILL change the world.

Those are my thoughts.

robert_unknown

10-18-2006, 06:24 AM

i dont believe that we should expect 5 to 10 years old children to pray like adults. and i dont think God expects it from them. i think children should be children at first! have fun, play, make friends, and learn God to know as friend.

in my eyes this whole thing is close to brainwashing. its an attempt to make little clones who behave the same way like the adults.

the most shocking is the picture of the black guy in his suit with the bible and the microfone.

is this REALLY something we want our children to copy? make them little "preachers" and little "warriors"? i have bigg doubts. looks like the TV shows, where parents make their children behave like Michael Jackson or other celebrities... i think it rather expresses the whish of parents to have little "christian soldiers", than the kids hearts to serve God! children serve God differently... normaly!

i will talk to a christian psychologist about it soon. will be interesting to hear her opinion about it.

jbkrems

10-18-2006, 06:39 AM

Robert:

So God is a respecter of persons? Hmmm...

Well, I don't think God cares how we pray, so long as we pray God's way.

What's wrong with children praying like adults? I mean, eventually they need to learn to "pray like adults," whatever that means... why not start early? I think the earlier we start "training our children in the way they should go," then we can stand on the Scripture that says, "When they are old, they will not depart from it."

I didn't see the black kid in a suit with a microphone, but I'll take your word for it that there was a picture of that. I found some of the pictures to be a bit graphic and overdone, but I would not describe them as "disturbing."

Yes, I think we really should teach our children to become little "warriors. Actually, at my church, the Toddler class is called "Wee Warriors," and the Infant class is called "Infantry." Normal Children's Church (ages 6-12) is called "J-Force," named after a series of plays the Children's Choir did. Yes, we're a fairly militant church.

I think it is a little different, however, to compare this to parents making their kids behave like Michael Jackson (heaven forbid) or other celebrities. I think what you saw in the video is more from the children's heart than you may think is there.

Finally, given the above, what do you think of the Scripture, which I alluded to earlier, which says, "Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it." - ???

robert_unknown

10-18-2006, 07:07 AM

"So God is a respecter of persons? Hmmm..."

???????

"Well, I don't think God cares how we pray, so long as we pray God's way."

exactly. and i have big doubts that its GODS way whats happening here!

remember NOLR with all its extensions and expressions (revivalism as we know it, spiritual warfare, "prophetic ministry" as we see it...) is only 50 (!) years old!!! christians did not engage in this things all the 2000 years of christianity until NOLR gained momentum. but still christianity had more succes and prevailed and grew during all this 2000 years of church history. but thats another discussion.

i have BIG doubts that this is Gods way. I rather believe its the parents way (who believe that christian spirituality has to do with this), and they are happy, that their kids behave like them.

I have been 100s of times in prayermeetings like this. i have heared this prayers hundrets of times. from adults! from preachers. it was considered praying "with fire" and "with authority"...

but i have NOT seen any results. no revivals. nothing. in 20 years!

christian children education is a good thing and a biblical mandate, i agree. my doubts are, that whats happening in this "ministry" has to do with christian children education...

j2theperson

10-18-2006, 07:10 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Rober: i dont believe that we should expect 5 to 10 years old children to pray like adults. and i dont think God expects it from them. i think children should be children at first! have fun, play, make friends, and learn God to know as friend.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I agree, Robert, and I would be very interested in hearing what your psychologist friend has to say about it. I think that it is much healthier to allow children to simply be children, to relate to God from a child's perspective, and to grow up at their own speed.

Adults pray the way they do because they have an adult's perspective--something that results from physical/biological growth to say nothing of the experience of time. Children cannot relate to God on an adult level (they can only pretend to) because physically, intellectually, emotionally, and experience-wise they are children--that's a biological fact.

I think that by pressuring children to pray as adults and know God as adults, you run the risk of putting God out of their reach--of making them feel He is inaccessible to them if they do not act in a mature enough manner. They are not able to approach Him honestly as the children they are, but instead end up feeling like they have to put on a mask of maturity and strength to approach Him.

Real growth and real maturity is not something you can force yourself or anyone else to experience. It's something that simply happens over the course of time. I think it is better to wait for real adulthood to occur than to force faux adulthood on a child who is not ready for the real thing

jbkrems

10-18-2006, 07:51 AM

Robert:

I know adults who pray that way, and I know adults who pray other than that way. Likewise, I know kids who pray that way, and I know kids who don't pray that way, either. All who go to my very own church, by the way.

However, I do know that there is a kind of prayer that gets results, and if these kids are learning early to pray THAT kind of prayer, and they are getting results, then I think that is something we should applaud, that they are learning to come boldly before the Father, and so forth, and see the kinds of things changed here on earth.

Since you do NOT believe that the kind of prayer demonstrated in the video is "God's way," what kind of prayer DO you see as God's way??? How would you describe such a prayer???

Also, I don't know what is going on in the video, and the motives of the person(s) who produced this video. I did go see "Jesus Camp," but that's a separate product. It has similar kinds of praying in that, but the video you linked to is what I am presently discussing.

Now, I have a question for both of you, Robert and J-2:

What about teenagers? Most of the teenagers who attend my church pray like adults do, and are fairly "mature" for their age. Do you see that as a healthy and good thing, or a negative??? And, please explain WHY you believe that way, regardless of if you think its healthy or not. Thanks.

robert_unknown

10-18-2006, 08:08 AM

the first question is the question about christian education, that you brought up:

"Finally, given the above, what do you think of the Scripture, which I alluded to earlier, which says, "Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it." - ???"

christian education, and i remind you that the scripture you quoted was written in a jewish OT context, was always seen as "charakter education". of course its important to teach knowledgte, but charakter education was in the jewish and in the christian context the most important focus when it comes to education of children.

children should learn self-controle, patience, love for the neighbor, to reject tempation and sin, to live without greed and jealousy, to share,... etc...etc...

NOLR brought something totally new. it brought a new form of spirituality and mysticism. "spiritual warfare", a new form of the "prophetic", ...etc...etc... we all eagree, that there is much controversy about this!

in my opinion parents should rather be concerned, that their kids develope a good and sound charakter rather then to engage in controversial ideas about a new spirituality, which, in my opinions, and after what i have seen during the last 20 years of my life, produces more problems than solutions!

robert_unknown

10-18-2006, 08:10 AM

"I think that it is much healthier to allow children to simply be children, to relate to God from a child's perspective, and to grow up at their own speed."

thats also my opinion, J2... and my wife shares the same views!

robert_unknown

10-18-2006, 08:13 AM

" I think it is better to wait for real adulthood to occur than to force faux adulthood on a child who is not ready for the real thing"

the next question is, what is "the real thing"! is an adult in suit, shaking his bible, yelling to the people "the real thing"? is this something we want our kids to become?

robert_unknown

10-18-2006, 08:16 AM

"However, I do know that there is a kind of prayer that gets results, and if these kids are learning early to pray THAT kind of prayer, and they are getting results, then I think that is something we should applaud, that they are learning to come boldly before the Father, and so forth, and see the kinds of things changed here on earth. "

so you think that its the "kind of prayer" that makes the difference? its "the kind of prayer" that brings results? and you believe that the demonstrated prayer is the "right kind of prayer"?? do you understand how religous it is what you say?

dust

10-18-2006, 08:40 AM

I think we ALL should pray like CHILDREN,..with child-like faith..without pretense, with that innocent faith, from the heart.

I've been around a lot of praying, different styles, etc. You can just TELL when its showoff prayers or when it's someone praying who (like a child) isn't thinking about what it looks like or sounds like...just allows the Holy Spirit to lead.

And issue that concerns me about children praying like adults or "warriors" is that children are not to carry such burdens,. They can't understand spiritual matters the same way, and the spiritual battles and world burdens don't belong to children, and for a child's mind, you can even traumatize kids putting adult issues on them. It's enough to teach them to praise, be thankful, and pray blessings.....WARRIOR STUFF IS NOT FOR KIDS.

jbkrems

10-18-2006, 08:46 AM

Robert:

Do you think parents/churches should teach their kids how to pray, as part of godly character?

If so, why should parents NOT teach their kids how to pray in an "adult" or "mature" manner???

I agree with you that children need to learn all that you described, but I also believe children need to know how to witness to their non-Christian friends (so they can win people to Christ at school and on the playground), and children need to learn how to pray.

Robert, finally, you asked "Is an adult in suit, shaking his Bible, yelling at people 'the real thing?'" and is this something we want our kids to become???

My response to THAT question is that parents need to pray and ask God what is His destiny for their kids. God has a plan for everyone's life, and some people are called to minister and be preachers. Benny Hinn has that calling. Lots of adults have that calling. Sure, some of what you see might be pre-mature, but if a kid has a calling of God on his/her life, then why should we limit God, or stop development in that area???

jbkrems

10-18-2006, 08:56 AM

Robert: I didn't articulate or describe WHAT kind of prayer gets results. Of course, this also depends on what kind of results you want. If you want to see signs and wonders, healings and miracles, and lots of CHANGE on earth, then that takes a certain kind of prayer. If you want other kinds of results, then such requires other kinds of prayer.

Now, whether the demonstrated "kind of prayer" in the video you linked to is the kind that gets results --- that is a different question. Quite frankly, Robert, I don't know whether the prayer in the video gets results. I was not there when those children were praying the way they prayed. I don't know what happened, or if any results were reported. So, I cannot say the "kind of prayer" demonstrated in the video is THE same "kind of prayer" that gets results.

I just know what works in my own life, and in the lives of the intercessors and leadership at my church. Personally, its not EXACTLY the same as what was demonstrated in the video, but it was similar. People at my church, for those that are intercessors and/or in leadership, tend to pray militantly and fervently, but without some of the crying, tears, and emotionalism expressed in the children's prayer in the video. However, much of the prayer in the video dealt with repentance, which can and should, at times, produce the crying, tears, and emotionalism you saw in the video, Robert.

Am I being "religious," by saying this? No, but I do believe I'm being spiritual about it.

Dust: Amen to that, at least your first two paragraphs.

Unfortunately, Dust, I disagree with you on the concept that children should NOT be trained to be young "warriors" because that forces them to carry burdens they are not prepared for. First, the Bible does say, "Train up a child in the way he shall go, and when he is old, he will not depart from that." Dust, why should an adult be trained to be a warrior, but NOT a child? That does not make logical sense to me. Rather, I think children need to learn the "way of the warrior," so to speak, from a young age, so they will "not depart from that" when they are older.

Dut, did you see my comment that we call the toddler class at my church "Wee Warriors." We have a rather militant approach at our church. The Children's Church is called "J-Force" and emphasizes evangelism. What do y'all think about that???

dust

10-18-2006, 09:30 AM

Krems: Dust, why should an adult be trained to be a warrior, but NOT a child?

Dust: I'm not into the warrior thing...I think I know the heart of what you're saying....but I've mediated a lot of Ephesians 6. The Armour of God is often a misunderstood concept.

Let's agree to disagree. Go read that scripture...don't hear from me...it's not important what I say...hear it from God.....

speakword2004

10-18-2006, 11:43 AM

Krems,

I was a school teacher at a WOF school for a year. I had kids in some of my classes who could recite Bible passages from here to Christmas from memory. They could play act like their seniors and do all the things the adults could do. Many of these kids were the worst kids I ever taught in 5 and half years in education where I taught from grades 4 to 10! This including a couple of years at a school for gifted children who had been kicked out of their schools for being a disruption due to their intelligence and subsequent boredom etc.

The honest truth is that the meanest, nastiest and un-Christian children I ever met were in that WOF church school. Why? Besides the spiritual stronghold that gripped the church and the school at that time, many of these kids were pumped full of relgiosity, false sense of superiority and an arrogance and pride in self that made me want to run a mile in the opposite direction each day.

You can indoctrinate children to kingdom come, but unless a transformative Christlikeness is modelled by the parents, teachers and other adults in those lives, you are just going to churn out little monsters.

speakword2004

10-18-2006, 12:02 PM

As for children trained to be warriors. Well, my gut as a parent, Christian and educator tells me that kids need to be allowed to be kids. They do not need to be "warriors".

You don't train an 8 year old to be a bus driver. Why? They can't meet the responsibility yet. Same as an accountant or a lawyer etc. They do not have the maturity, developed intellect, capacity for decision-making, etc. that would be needed in any of those vocations as an adult.

Yes, train a child with truth and model being a prayer warrior etc. to them but do not demand they mimic and perform on a Sunday like you. Christianity is about a transformative reality in a person's life. It is about encountering Jesus and becoming like Him. It is not about encountering the law and pretending to be holy to please an earthly daddy or mommy.

Then how different would these children be to the Hitler youth or Maoist communist brigades who could recite and outwardly conform ad nauseam?

I pray aloud over my son each night. By doing so I model my love, concern and care as a Christian to him and before God. I am not overly pleased by his simple recitations of prayers at mealtimes. They are nice to listen to and he can say them in two languages and he actually sings his latest favourite and it sounds very sweet etc. but what my heart yearns to hear is the day when it actually sounds like he is in dialogue with his saviour simply out of the love of his heart for Him and not because daddy or mommy say that it is good to pray.

speakword2004

10-18-2006, 12:02 PM

speakword2004

10-18-2006, 12:09 PM

Please see
Christian Education Without the Problem of Indoctrination

http://www.quodlibet.net/tan-education.shtml

speakword2004

10-18-2006, 12:26 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp_Documentary

robert_unknown

10-18-2006, 01:05 PM

thank you speakword, also for the resource you provided with the link!!!

"I pray aloud over my son each night. By doing so I model my love, concern and care as a Christian to him and before God. I am not overly pleased by his simple recitations of prayers at mealtimes. They are nice to listen to and he can say them in two languages and he actually sings his latest favourite and it sounds very sweet etc. but what my heart yearns to hear is the day when it actually sounds like he is in dialogue with his saviour simply out of the love of his heart for Him and not because daddy or mommy say that it is good to pray."

its the same here. I pray for my son, and the family together WITH him! if i forget it, he reminds me or his mummy. he doesnt say much by his own, because he is too shy, but then and there he adds little things, and i understand he talks to Jesus. one time he kissed towards the sky, to express his love to God. e understands much about God though, and has many questions about Him. But i dont force him to behave like I (!) expect him to behave.

we feel that modelling a christian livestyle is more important than to train behaviour (how to pray, etc...etc...)

christianity is about relationship with a LIVING God!

speakword2004

10-18-2006, 01:21 PM

Amen!

Ted Haggard makes some very telling comments in the video when he tells the young boy who says he is a preacher:" . . .use your cute kid thing until you are 30 and then you will have context (to preach from)".

Hmmm. Pres. of The National Association of Evangelicals saying it like it is or not?

blueboy96

10-18-2006, 06:01 PM

Now you're scaring me, Speakword ... did you see stuff like that in EN's kids' ministry? I'm wondering because two of my former Wrong-Waymaker colleagues are now the children's ministers at KPIC.

jbkrems

10-18-2006, 09:40 PM

Speakword:

That's interesting. We actually have a school that operates out of our church, but actually, a lot of students attend the school (at least a significant number, possibly a third to 40%) who do NOT attend our church, and whichever church they DO attend is NOT charismatic in the traditional sense, nor is WOF. However, they are welcome with open arms at the school, they actually DO WELL at the school (grade-wise), and they make friends well, also.

Further, not every teacher is WOF, although most are, and the administration is definitely from a WOF background.

Last May, I attended on a Friday night the school's graduation ceremony. Three students graduated (this is a SMALL school). Of these three students, only one of them attended our church. The other 2 were great students, and attended other, non-charismatic, non-WOF churches (I believe at least one went to a Baptist church).

The point of all this is that you simply cannot extrapolate your own experiences, and say its true everywhere. I don't think what you experienced at your WOF school is necessarily typical everywhere, and its definitely not my own personal experience here in Edmond, Oklahoma.

Speakword, I think I agree with your sentiment addressed in this paragraph: "Yes, train a child with truth and model being a prayer warrior etc. to them but do not demand they mimic and perform on a Sunday like you. Christianity is about a transformative reality in a person's life. It is about encountering Jesus and becoming like Him. It is not about encountering the law and pretending to be holy to please an earthly daddy or mommy." I think that is a rather accurate statement of what I believe, too.

speakword2004

10-19-2006, 09:31 AM

Krems

My illustration was not meant to cover all Christian or WOF children's ministries at all. You misunderstand me. What I was trying to show is that Christianity is not about "performances" but rather about an inward reality becoming outwardly expressed in true love and fellowship.
I am glad we agree on that.

Back to my experience. The WOF church school I worked at also had many kids from different churches. In fact, parent and child church membership was a prerequiste to school admission. Sadly, once again, a determination to apply this legalistic constraint meant that both some pastors and parents ended up forging church membership or attendance to comply with admission to this seemingly island stronghold of moral integrity and virtue. Once again this illustrates just how low many "Christians" regard the sanctity of true community and fellowship.

jbkrems

10-19-2006, 10:47 PM

Speakword:

Ok, thanks for that clarification. Unfortunately, some of the other folks who post here tend to take their experiences, and then treat them as a blanket experience for all churches that are WOF, or all churches that are charismatic, or whatever. And I have a big problem with that (its a major pet peeve), because its just not so.

I think we operate the same, and desire parents and their children to be members of some church, somewhere, even though its not necessarily at OUR church. So, there are Baptist children, and children from other denominations at our church's school, in addition to children from my church.

Side journey: We also, by the way, operate a daycare center, and I believe it is under the same rules, although I do not think the parent/child church membership policy is in effect there, because the daycare/school administration desires these programs to be an outreach to the local community. This can become very interesting, as we were told last night. Apparently, earlier this week, one of the daycare kids had an asthma attack. When his mother found out the staff layed hands on him, and prayed for his recovery, and as a result the child DID recover and feel better, she was surprised. So, it does function somewhat as an outreach.

j2theperson

02-09-2007, 09:58 PM

Hey everyone, I thought you might like to know that Jesus Camp is available for viewing at Google videos (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8877708936425212842&q=jesus+%20%20 camp+duration%3Along).

osakadan

02-10-2007, 12:58 AM

I just watched this a few weeks ago. One of the scariest things I have ever seen. Reminds me of Nazi youth camps.

ulyankee

02-12-2007, 05:33 PM

j2, it looks like it's been taken down. It is now available on DVD so I would guess that it might have been posted illegally online.

jayhernandez

02-15-2007, 11:54 PM

I have this film going in the other room right this very second and almost got sick so I came here instead to see if there was a thread on it. I'm not surprised to see is.

Not only is this film reminding me of EN but of the small house church group I've been attending lately. Some might say it's because they are taking over the world but I say it's a new day and God wants me to love everybody. This is not false humility- believe me-it was not fun being in Tampa making choices to stay or leave, arguing with my roommate who was being supported and was staff, and was being told by the pastor wife that I should leave.

It is sad for me to think I might have to go through what I did with EN because it isn't easy. But I also know the damage this kind of authoritarian thought brings. My brother tells me our brothers in Cali are still broken over their church scandal. Their trust has been broken. They'll visit a church hoping to get through a service but hardly ever make it through if even one sentence sounds like an EN message.

This small group I’ve been going too sounds like speaks like those in this film and those at EN. They have begun to realize that their "special message" of dead churches in America doesn’t have the power to hook me in. This message is usually followed up with how "this group" is being raised up to take over the world, and finally ends with another pass of how they need to stick together because the churches "out there" are dead.

If I don't jump on the band wagon; they'll become impatient. They'll find a way to get back to the way they do church. The way they did it before a new person shows up. EN would like to think they are up front but they aren’t upfront (examples of this are clearly covered in other threads). They hold back what they practice like a Christian who endures falls teachings. When I think of not wanting to be blamed for causing division, it reminds me of the fear that EN leadership face. The only difference is that EN leadership has rights to correct it when I do not. Not anymore. According to the Word I should not. I also hold back because there are younger adults who will be broken. I have no church that is perfect. How then should I dare disagree?

These children will grow up with no more or no less of a need for Christ then any of us. This hope in Christ is that power that gives me peace when I watch this film or meet groups like EN.

Jay

coppertree

02-16-2007, 12:49 AM

Hi Jay,

Nice is hear from you again. I pray , as others here will also. for your brother and his friends ,and you. I think, if we know , things are not right we should speak up. I did, a long day ago, and He has been so good to me, to heal me, so I could see my way again.

I pray this for you. it says in the Word for us to contend for strong ( correct) doctrine. He will show you what to do.}

jayhernandez

02-16-2007, 07:20 PM

Hey Coppertree,

Thanks for the encouragment. I will send out peace- and will be a witness if it returns.

If it does not return- I can do no other then dust off my feet. This will not be quick-my desire is not to retire myself.

You are correct about healing- healing like blindness require Gods mercy. It was not so much that speaking up healed you but learning the truth of Lord. If this truth is what you spoke of... then you've been met with opposition. And even greater, you've also been met with grace to move forward.

You've also been met with other Lord serving people who are just as brave in the simple "faith alone in Christ" message. This I think is the greatest of these. Opposition I could do without. =) You know exactly what I mean.

Trying to correct wrong thinking always appear as an attack on the person? DO you know why?

A person can be corrected without direct reference to the bible- this I call common sense; it is free for everyone. Is it met with the same sharpness though?

Speaking of correct doctrine intels the bible. Now what kind of sharpness is added?

Do you know the hardest part about speaking to a loved one about the bible is? It's knowing they've had thier hand in the cookie jar- either they been caught or they haven't.

I think knowing that anything being said in Truth- about the Truth- goes to the core of us.
I don't like to think I'm cutting anyone- I don't even like to think God is cutting anyone. But he does and it's good.

freedom43

04-16-2007, 04:38 PM

I finally saw this movie over the weekend. The messages delivered to and spoken by the children in the movie were consistent with what I heard in MCM (and Grace Covenant Church) in the 1980s and early 1990s. The intensity, the emotionalism, the style of praise and worship (and criticism by one little girl of other churches being "dead churches"), the encouragement to engage (and engagement) in political activism, etc. was exactly like MCM. They reminded me of the young adults in Maranatha 25 years ago -- but they were only ages about 8-12 (it seemed).

The movie seemed balanced in that it let the folks portrayed speak for themselves and just gave footage of what was happening and interviews.

The movie was made (I think) before Ted Haggard's fall -- but I thought the clips of him were interesting. I had never heard or seen him before. Rather than let the film-makers just capture his preaching during a church service, he kept kind of engaging the camera person and making silly barbs to the camera. You would think he would have just preached. Also, he made an interesting comment to Levi (the young Christian warrior). He was asking him if he ever preached/was a preacher. And, he basically told Levi he could use the kid angle to get an audience while he worked on content. A friend watching with me remarked how odd that seemed, i.e., it was all about getting an audience and not what you had to say.

Anyway, I think the filmmakers' goal was to show these young militant kids being endoctrinated as political activists and how scary/dangerous that would be for those on the other side of the political spectrum.

The children were very much engaged in activism around abortion and demonstrated on the Supreme Court grounds with tape over their mouths that read "Life." They were praying for the confirmation of Samuel Alito and seemed to adore President Bush.

Objectively, the worship, intense prayer (warfare prayer) would seem very odd/weird to watch if you had never experienced something like it. They had a series of deleted scenes that I also watched. One of which was how to deal with demonic manifestations by the children, should they occur. The adults were in a planning/prayer session getting ready and discussing this. One guy basically said that when the Holy Spirit really starts working that sometimes you can see the demons fleeing and that it will sometimes manifest in a child doing something funny with their hands or something. He was saying, he usually goes up to the child and puts his arms on their shoulders and ministers to them.

Here's a question for you parents out there (most of the children seemed unaccompanied by their parents at this) how would you feel about any/all of this?

Anyway, I'm still thinking about it, but the thing most disturbing to me, I guess, was that I felt the kids were being manipulated emotionally, much like I was as a young adult. The intensity made them seem far too old for their young years. It made me sad that they couldn't just be kids. They were taking the weight of saving the world and ending abortion on themselves at such an early age. Additionally, the way they prayed, talked -- squirmed when slain the spirit, etc. -- all seemed to be channeling their parents and ministers. I probably said many of those exact same words when I was in MCM.

To me, it seems like brainwashing at a young age. But, I can see why others who might agree with the end result and don't have a problem with the message or theology might think it is okay. Overall, it just made me sad that I heard the exact same things I heard 20 to 25 years ago.

jia

04-16-2007, 07:20 PM

One guy basically said that when the Holy Spirit really starts working that sometimes you can see the demons fleeing and that it will sometimes manifest in a child doing something funny with their hands or something. He was saying, he usually goes up to the child and puts his arms on their shoulders and ministers to them.

Here's a question for you parents out there (most of the children seemed unaccompanied by their parents at this) how would you feel about any/all of this?

i think if a guy tries to "deliver" my child "from demons", i would deliver the devils out of him (in a not very spiritual way, perhaps)...
thats just weird. children MOVE and usually cannot sit still for long time.
i think that much of the delivery things is just psychological. i mean adults just do not behave the way they do in a delivery session. in my opinion much of the "manifestations" is just a nothing else than a psychological reaction on unexspected strange behaviour.

to let this happen to children is VERY concerning and absolutely iresponsible!