What does Every Nation mean

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

I've reposted this to its own thread for discussion, as requested by another poster. Note that the original 2004 World Conference series is copyrighted - anyone wanting to hear the series should purchase it from www.everynation.org (http://www.everynation.org), borrow it from a library lending it, etc. I'm posting these quotes in accordance with the fair use provisions of copyright law, which allows quoting from sources for educational and free speech purposes.

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Jim Laffoon (with Rice Broocks)
“To Reach and To Rule”
Morning Star International/Every Nation Churches and Ministries
2004 World Conference: Every Leader – Every Church – Every Nation
July 15, 2004
Conference audio and video available for sale from www.everynation.org (http://www.everynation.org); www.everynationstore.com (http://www.everynationstore.com)
Note: original recording is © Every Nation Productions, 2004. This is a transcription from the original recording.

[Jim Laffoon]: I want to share a word with you tonight which I’m going to entitle, “To Reach and To Rule.” Who will possess the nations of the earth? The issue facing us tonight is not, “Will the nations of the earth be possessed?” For possessed they will be. There is only one issue facing us tonight, is “Who will possess them?” Who will possess the nations of the earth? What entity, what ideology, what force will possess the nations of the earth in such a way that they become the inheritance they give to their children?

I want to divide this message into three very simple parts. I want to look for a moment at our place and time, at a very simple plan we find in the book of Psalms, then I’ll picture it. In Isaiah 62 it says the nations are going to see our light, the kings are going to see it. I’m convinced that God has bestowed a new name upon us. Every Nation. Every Nation Ministries and Churches. The issue of the hour is not, “Has God bestowed a new name on us?” The issue of the hour is, “Will we live up to that name?” In reality, what does it really mean? Every Nation what? What will we do in every nation of the earth? What will we settle for? What is it that God has called us together as a people for? It says in this passage in Isaiah that God bestows on them a new name and latent in this name is the promise of authority. There’ll be a crown of splendor. A scepter. Diadem. In the hands of God. But how does this happen? What is God after? What is on the heart of God? Look with me in Psalm chapter 2, as we come into the essence of what I hear the Lord saying. In Psalms 2 if you remember, later in Acts chapter 4, when the church is being persecuted, they’re trying to wipe them out as they’re spreading through Jerusalem, all of a sudden Peter stands up under the anointing, when they’re facing persecution, and uses this passage to illustrate God’s sovereign hand in the death of His son. God’s hand in what seemed like a dark moment. Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gathered together against the Lord and against His anointed one and says, let us break his values, let us shatter his standards, we will live any way we desire. We will have same sex marriage. We will cast prayer from our schools. We will rule this planet with ideologies that violate his very nature. This God is not going to chain us down. This God is not going to hold us down. And although it says these boasts are empty in this passage, when you look at our world you wonder, how empty they are. Much of our planet dwells in darkness. Ideologies hostile to God rule. Our campuses are places where faith and righteousness seem to be destroyed. Political systems, whether they be Communist, whatever they might be, seem to be anti-God in many places. Yet God says they’re vain. God says they’re empty. God says, “I have a plan to establish my power on this planet.” Peter stood under the anointing of the Spirit of God. He stood under the power of God, looking back at the crucifixion of Christ, seemingly the darkest moment of his life, Christ dead, disciples scattered. And he said, “even then God was at work with a plan.” Even in the thickest darkness, even when it seemed all was gone, even when it seemed all we hoped for and longed for was shattered, every dream we had was smashed, even then God’s mighty hand was moving, and it was only darkest at the dawn of a new era.

It goes on to say in this Psalm, “The one enthroned in heaven laughs.” I’m here to tell you today that God looks down from heaven, as much as He hates sin, He has a plan for the earth. He looks down at every movie mogul. He looks down at every empty educator. He looks down at EVERYONE stealing the values of our children, and says, “You’ve got to be kidding if you think you’ll thwart my plan on the earth. I have a plan you don’t understand! I have a plan for every campus! Every school! Every specter of society! Every region of the world! I have a plan! And though it’s so dark you cannot see it, my plan is going to win.”

He who sits enthroned in the heavens laughs, he scoffs at them, then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath with this saying. You see, the thing that terrifies the enemy tonight is not that God rules in heaven. He has conceded that. The thing that terrifies hell tonight, that terrifies the enemy tonight, is not the fact that God is on the throne in heaven. Because the thing I’m going to tell you tonight, that’s going to terrify the enemy is, “I have installed my king on Zion, and that I have a plan to rule the earth like I rule heaven. That I have a plan to come down into every area of society and establish my kingship! Establish my lordship!” The thing that terrifies the enemy is not some mass meeting with people crying, coming forward with no change in their life! The thing that terrifies the enemy is that there could be a place on this planet where the kingdom of God comes on the earth like it is in heaven. The thing that terrifies the enemy, that there could be a people, there could be a place where God’s rule is expressed on the earth. He goes on to say, now watch this, because I’m building here, “When I’ve installed my king on Zion, when I have done that, then you can ask of me. When this begins to happen, when I’ve installed my king, then you can ask me and I’ll make the nations your inheritance.” When you begin to experience this kind of rule, the thing you’ll give your children is the opportunity to have nations. When I’ve installed my king – and this is not some one thousand year reign promise, I don’t know what your millennial view is, it doesn’t matter – I’m not waiting for some millennial though, I believe one in my own theology, I believe NOW we can experience some of this.

“When I’ve installed my king, ask of me, I’ll give you nations, not only that, I’ll make the ends of the earth your possession. You will rule them with an iron scepter. Because if you ask of me, not only will I give you nations, I’ll begin to give you real rule and real authority.” I’m utterly convinced, as I stand here tonight, that God has raised up this family in the earth to reach “every nation in our generation.” But the ultimate purpose of God is not for us to reach every nation, it is to raise up a generation long after my generation is gone who because they have reached nations can begin to rule nations! [audience cheers] Have you ever wondered why the church has spent two thousand years reaching the same nations OVER and OVER and OVER again? It’s because we’ve only set a goal of reaching them and not understanding what it is to rule them, and one generation reaches them, and never transfers the burden of rule to the next generation, and we reached them over and over and over in a cycle! I’m here to tell you, the generation of Phil [Bonasso] and Rice and Steve [Murrell], our generation, will plant a church capable of reaching that nation, in every nation, but your generation, twenty-five and under, thirty and under, God wants to install something, God wants to do something, where we not only begin to reach nations, we literally begin to possess them.

Now, it’s interesting, as you look at this passage, we know from the book of Acts that David wrote this psalm. Peter says, “from the mouth of your servant, David.” And everything in this passage is dependent on verse 6. What does this verse 6 mean? God is saying, listen, your plans aren’t going to come forth, in fact, I am going to install my king on Zion. And when I do, then you’ll begin to reel. Then you’ll begin to rule. In order to understand this psalm, we’ll turn there together, you have to turn to the book of 2 Samuel, chapter 5. For this is not merely a prophetic psalm, this is a real event in the life of David. And in 2 Samuel 5 beginning in verse 6, we find a powerful story with a parallel in our own generation. Four hundred years before David they had conquered almost all of the Promised Land. But the most strategic hill in the Promised Land was Zion. And that hill was called, “The fortress of Zion.” For four hundred years it had resisted conquest. It seemingly was impregnable. And the Jebuzites owned it, and as long as they had that strategic place in the Promised Land, they could control much of what happened. For four hundred years, it had resisted God’s people. No one could take it. No one could affect it. They had the rest of the land, but one strategic strongpoint was binding them. In fact, as you look at this passage in 2 Samuel, the inhabitants of this city had been there so long that they had a statement, they said this, “Even blind men and lame men can defend this city.” And when David became king, he knew that even though he had the hearts of millions, he knew that even though he had a lot of territory, if he did not break this strategic strongpoint, the nation would never really be his. And he came up and began to besiege this stronghold. And they looked down from the walls and laughed and said, “You may have all the people, you may have all the land, but you’ll never get this. We could be blind and lame but it’s impossible for you to get it.”

David said this: “The only way into this stronghold is through the sewer. Is through the waterworks. There has got to be some man, some group, some where, so well trained, so well disciplined, so under authority, that they can swim up through the sewer, without being defiled, without being contaminated, they can come up in the waterworks and open the gates to let the rest of us in!”

I’m here to tell you tonight, there are strategic areas in the nations of the world that control everything that happens. Fortified areas. We go to nations where everyone’s been saved five times according to evangelists. But nothing changes. There are nations of the world where revival comes and revival goes and we long for it like a tide, EBBING and FLOWING but when it’s all done there’s no change! As I look at our own nation, as I look at the Western world, I look at these strategic areas, revival comes, revival goes, and they interpret the events to the common people. I look at the media. I look at the education area. I look at the entertainment business. I look at the judicial system. I look at our political systems. We could go on and on. But in every nation in the world there are areas resisting the penetration of God’s people YEAR after YEAR after YEAR after YEAR! They mock us! They laugh at us! We’re lame and blind but you can’t take us! You’ll never get in here. And at the very essence of our calling as a people is to raise up a generation of men and women from every sector of society from the medical field [builds with growing cheers], to the judicial field, to the political field, to the entertainment world, to the real estate world, to the finance world, to the corporate world, who have been SO well trained, SO well discipled, SO filled with the vision of God that they can go into the bloodstream of that area into the sewer of that area that has defiled so many and they can swim up as a disciple, into the heart of it and open the gates for the rest of us. [Cheers and applause] And I’m here to tell you, by the spirit of God tonight, there is a mandate on this family, to raise up a generation of men and women as we go into every nation in the earth, and plant a church, at the very essence of that church is a heart to make disciples and train leaders. We’re not here just to train preachers. We are not here just to raise up teachers, no, we are here to disciple every area of life. And there is a passion, there is a fire in our heart! I look at the man God chose, his name was Joab, he was desperate and alone, he swam up into that city all alone, UP the sewer system, in the BLACK of NIGHT, and came up out of the water and opened the gates! Typically, by the time someone has swam up the sewer of that culture, by the time someone has paid the cost to get into a place where they finally have power, because they’ve never been discipled, the very waters they swam in have contaminated them and drowned their faith. I’m here to tell you by the spirit of God tonight that when you are discipled, when you are trained, that when you begin to understand that we are called to take these strategic power structures around the world, that we are called to take them, that we are called… and I appreciate George Bush, but I’m not interested in meeting the President, I want to disciple the next one. I am utterly, absolutely convinced that we will disciple the future leaders of every nation in the world. [cheers and applause] It is our mandate. And as we disciple them, that which is normally defiling, as I’ve prayed about this today, I thought of the man with leprosy, and God said, “go and dip in the Jordan River,” he said, “man, it’s filthy, it’s polluted, it’s dirty, I’m not gonna get in that thing,” but when he went by the word of the Lord not only did it not pollute, it transformed him! And there is a generation of men and women coming out of this family [cheers] DISCIPLED, ACCOUNTABLE, TRAINED, FILLED WITH EXCELLENCE, ENTERING EVERY AREA OF LIFE, SWIMMING IN THE SEWER, GOING UP THE DARKNESS… to open up the gates to the rest of us.

As I look at this nation, as I look at the nations of the world, I’m here to tell you, that before we’re done, we’ll not merely plant a church in every one of the world’s nations, we will study, analyze, and penetrate the cultures that control her. Have you ever wondered why God has given us the youth of the world? Have you ever wondered why we’re on hundreds of universities? Have you ever asked the question why? When Moses and Aaron came together the only thing they understood was that we’re going to lead some people out of captivity and there’s a Promised Land. They never understood that out of their meeting would come the foundations of Judeo-Christian society. They never understood that out of their meeting would spring the very people that would spring the Messiah! Never understood it!

When I was at Innsbruck, one night in the middle of the night the Lord began to speak to me and I saw the globe. Explosions of fire, all over it. Wherever there was an explosion, there was a stadium with thousands of young people, but different than I’d ever seen. They weren’t being entertained. They were being equipped. The hotel room was just filled with the sound of a marching army. God said, “Because you’ve asked for the youth of the world I’ve given them to you. And I’m going to give you an army of young people like the world has never seen. And if you preach destiny to them and disciple them, you’ll make history.”

God has given us the hearts of the world’s youth. We might shape them and mold them to go beyond reaching to ruling. I look for the day when God helps us train them and equip them how to think, how to affect their region, how to affect their nation.

Let me draw one more picture for you. Turn to Revelation chapter 12. In Revelation chapter 12 we find a tremendous picture [several second pause] of birthing. [several second pause] A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven – a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head – a picture of the church, righteous like the sun, standing on the moon, overcoming evil, twelve stars, speaking of the twelve apostles – apostolic authority, twelve tribes – spiritual family. And the second great sign was she was just crying out in pain. And she was in travail. And she was about to give birth and another sign appeared in heaven, an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his head, his tail for a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. Trying to destroy the earth. Trying to infect it and destroy a culture. And the dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth. Many of you my age – and I’ll be fifty soon – those of you in your middle thirties and forties – you say, “man, the devil’s been standing in front of me, ever since I’ve joined this ministry he’s been in front of me, he must really fear me!” Let me tell you, for all your might, and all your power, the thing the enemy fears is not you, it’s what you’re capable of birthing! The thing the enemy really fears in [?] for tonight, in Camp Morning Star tonight, in the students tonight, the thing the enemy fears is not Phil and Steve and Rice, it’s what the synergism of their lives can BIRTH and PRODUCE! [several second pause] What the enemy really fears, in the end, is not just another church plant. It was the fact that that woman was pregnant with something as you read on, that was not just going to reach nations, it was going to rule nations. That scared the enemy. You see, when the enemy finds an apostolic family under authority, when he finds a people who walk as family, with power over the enemy, filled with righteousness [builds] yet realizing their great destiny on the earth is not just to shine and not just to look good, that they are there to somehow birth a generation that once they’ve paid the cost to reach every nation they could hand those nations to their children and their grandchildren and say, “NOW RULE THEM!” [applause and cheers]

Before I die, I expect to see an incredible apostolic center in every nation in the earth. Before my children die, I expect they’ll begin to see every culture in those nations begin to change. The enemy hates us. Not because we’re the greatest, most wonderful thing on the earth. He hates us because we are capable of birthing that which will rule. He’s given us the greatest universities in the world. No one’s really asking for them. We’re raising up a generation of children who I believe if my generation is faithful to reach nations, the next generation can begin to rule nations. It is my passion.

What am I saying tonight? The nations, the earth, are up for grabs. Up for grabs. God has bestowed a new name on us. Every Nation Churches and Ministries. But what in every nation? I am convinced, Phil and Rice and Steve and Ronnie [Ron Lewis] and my generation, Brett [Fuller], have been called together to reach every nation in the world, and like David, to bring together every ingredient they will need for our Solomons to rule it. I believe that. I believe we are capable of birthing that which the devil fears most. We are capable of birthing the generation of Joabs who can swim in the culture without being defiled. Who can swim in the darkness and still see by faith. Who are so excellent, so anointed, so passionate, so skilled in their craft, that they can come into these power centers in our culture and open the door for the rest of us. I believe it is our mandate. I believe it is our purpose. Every nation in the earth I see an apostolic center. Every nation in the earth I see us penetrating every segment of that culture. I see it. I see it. It is our mandate. I bestow on you a new name, make you my crown, make you my diadem.

It goes on to say in Revelation 12 that when the Lord saw this new generation threatened, he snatched them up to heaven. What does that mean? It says to God and to His throne. He didn’t just snatch them up to knowing God, he snatched them up to lordship, snatched them up to the throne. That’s why Rice and Phil and Steve and others, the great passion of our heart is to snatch our kids out of degradation, to lordship, and relationship, and intimacy, and presence, knowing that at that throne and in that presence they are molded and shaped. That is why like the woman in Revelation we are willing to go through the desert and face ALL OF HELL where they are being made ready to rule what we have reached.

Yes, before it’s done, God will give us hundreds of apostles and prophets, evangelists, teachers, pastors, thousands of campus workers, but it’s only the beginning, for they are going to equip the greatest army of professionals, and lawyers, and doctors, and entertainers, and fashion designers, and politicians, [cheers] and mayors, [building cheers and applause] and congressmen, and congresswomen, and athletes, and entertainers that the world has ever seen. And that’s why I say tonight, movie moguls beware, ungodly dictators be afraid, anti-Christ political systems be worried, [cheers] ungodly educators your day is coming. [Building cheers and applause] For we believe that the kingdom of God can come to the earth as it is in heaven. We believe that we are called to not only reach but to rule. We believe that we are called to change history. [full cheers and applause] We believe that we are called to produce a generation that will rule. I believe that one day we will leave to our children NATIONS and REGIONS and CONTINENTS! [continuing cheers and applause for 30 seconds]

The thing that Kath [JL’s wife] and I want to leave Andrew, Peter, Robert and Katie, is [sic] not some heirlooms or a million dollars. It is the SKILL and the WILL to RULE THAT WHICH WE’VE REACHED!

[approx 25 more seconds of cheers and applause, ending in brief audible speaking in tongues by unknown speaker]

[Rice Broocks] Let’s remain standing. We’re about to close. But I want Pastor Jim to pray a prayer. It says in Revelation that there’s this conflict that the church is called into. Here in this struggle that many theologians and… again, we’re not wanting to get sidetracked into end-time debates and scenarios and speculations, but… it seems when you look at the popular theology it’s all about leaving this planet and somehow that there are nations that will be reached after the church is gone, and there’s these elaborate speculations and themes and charts, yet that’s probably the greatest gamble in history. To gamble away the fate and the souls of men and women, for many times, a preoccupation with Western convenience and comfort. But in this battle of Revelation, in this struggle where the revelation is of Christ, and His rule and His authority, there was a moment when he said, “Seal my bondservants on the forehead, seal them.” Now I think that just the prayer I would pray tonight, is Jesus, John 17 said, that “I prayed for my disciples” – interesting that he said, “ I guarded them in Your Name, Father, I didn’t lose any except one, that the Scripture may be fulfilled.” But I believe that as we are commissioned, just to be presumptuous and jump into that sewer, that’s right, could be devastating not for you, not only for you, but for others that might just follow, it’s not just about jumping into the sewer, I can do this, it is about making sure, like any army would do, that you go through the training, that you understand how to use the weapons that will save your life, that you know how to fight and how to stand with others. We’re not fighting. This isn’t a charge to reignite a new generation of angry fundamentalists. That thing is not going to work. This is an army of love, this is an army of kindness, this is an army of prayer… [applause] A new spirit, a new spirit. I just want you Pastor Jim, just where you know where that passage is specifically, but just to pray, and let’s ask God to do a miracle, even as Jesus said I prayed, guarded them that I did not lose one. I’m just praying that this ceiling, this… just in the minds and in the hearts, so many images, so many thoughts, that it’s going to be a miracle for us to do what he’s talking about. So Pastor Jim, go ahead.

[Jim Laffoon] There in the book of Revelation, where it talks about the mark of the beast, whatever that is, it talks about those that had the name of their Father written on their foreheads. They were sealed with that. The Lamb stood on Mount Zion, “Father come now, write your name upon our foreheads, as we meditate on your word, as we confess your word, as you transform us, let your name GLOW on our foreheads!” God I pray that you would SEAL this generation! You would SEAL us with discipleship! SEAL us with accountability! SEAL us with family! SEAL us with your word! Filling us with your LOVE and your GRACE and your POWER. And as you seal us, keep us, give us the wisdom to be inserted into every area that affects culture, that we’re trusting your sealing, your blessing, and your help.

[Rice Broocks] Thank you Father. Let’s just thank the Lord tonight for what we’ve heard. [applause] Let’s praise Him – ushers, if you’d move this, let’s give the Lord praise tonight. [cheers and applause, recording ends]

(Message edited by ulyankee on December 06, 2005)

[40days40years (40days40years)]

What does EVERY NATION mean?

May God be true but EVERY MAN a liar. Where does every man live? He lives in EVERY NATION.

The Lord is a consuming fire.

[ontheroad (ontheroad)]

In the context of my personal experiences with Marantha-ites and in readin the above quoted sermon, the words "Every Nation" make me physically ill. To me, the name is the biggest reminder that they want to infiltrate by force every nation - every nook and cranny of the earth. They sugar coat it so that it sounds like it is for the Lord, but really, it is a self-serving goal.

When did Jesus instruct us to take dominion, to rule by force like this? He didn't force Himself on people in His own ministry. He wooed them to Himself with love, letting them *choose* to come into His kingdom. He is never about forcing control on people. He is about wooing them and loving them so that they *choose* to yield to Him.

What EveryNation and other so-called apostolic, kingdom-now movements want to do is force their beliefs on others, dominate them, and control them. Control is fear-based and shame-based. It instills bondage and an unhealthy fear and shame into those under control, so that they feel like the *have* to choose. It is also pride-based, because those doing the controlling assume that they have the right to do so. These quotes demonstrate Every Nation's pride and power-hungry goals:

<font color="0077aa">"We are not here just to raise up teachers, no, we are here to disciple every area of life."</font>
Every area? If that's not control, what is? I have seen and experienced this first-hand, to the point where I and others were almost incapable of making any decisions on our own because we had been "submitting" every decision to the pastor for so long, as he had instructed us to do. This isn't discipleship; it's dictatorship.

<font color="0077aa">"You will rule them with an iron scepter. Because if you ask of me, not only will I give you nations, I’ll begin to give you real rule and real authority."</font>
Control...control...control. Authority and rule to what end? An iron sceptor in the hands of EveryNation? God help us all!

<font color="0077aa">"You see, when the enemy finds an apostolic family under authority, when he finds a people who walk as family, with power over the enemy, filled with righteousness [builds] yet realizing their great destiny on the earth is not just to shine and not just to look good, that they are there to somehow birth a generation that once they’ve paid the cost to reach every nation they could hand those nations to their children and their grandchildren and say, “NOW RULE THEM!”</font>

It's all about them, about EN. Is it about helping the lost? About helping the hurting? No. It's egocentric and about them: the "price" THEY paid (what about the price Jesus paid?); THEIR destiny, THEIR rule (what about Jesus' rule?)

Satan is all about forcing himself on others and controlling them. Jesus was about sharing Himself with others and saving them. This makes me wonder....in their very heart of hearts, at the core of their consciences, just *why* do they want to take dominion of the earth? Is it truly about loving the nations and wanting them to come into God's kingdom, or is it about who can tally up the most people so that they can feel big and have more people to rule over in their own kingdom?

This type of grandiose thinking reminds me of people who are schizophrenic and believe themselves to be kings or famous people. EN borders on being a mentally ill unit. They don't seem to be grounded in actual reality. They are in a fantasy world where they are the elite chosen ones to rule a planet.

Someone else brought up a good point in a post on another thread. EN seems to believe they are the elite chosen for this massive destiny. What about other churches? If they truly corner the market on this dominion quest, then what happens to other churches trying to reach the lost? Does EN plan to lord themselves over other churches as well?

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

From Al Dager's "An Examination of Kingdom Theology" (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/l04.html) - for a basis of comparison:

The basic premise of Kingdom Theology is that man lost dominion over the earth when Adam and Eve succumbed to Satan's temptation in the Garden of Eden. God "lost control" of the earth to Satan at that time, and has since been looking for a "covenant people" who will be His "extension," or "expression," in the earth and take dominion back from Satan. This is to be accomplished through certain "overcomers" who, by yielding themselves to the authority of God's apostles and prophets for the Kingdom Age, will take control of the kingdoms of this world. These kingdoms are defined as all social institutions, such as the "kingdom" of education, the "kingdom" of science, the "kingdom" of the arts, and so on.

Most especially there is the "kingdom" of politics or government. This naturally implies the concentration of military and police power in the hands of those in control during the Kingdom Age. They are referred to as the "many-membered man child," whom Kingdom Theology adherents believe will be the fulfillment of Revelation 12:1-5: "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars....And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron."

Those who hold to Kingdom Theology assume that the Church (some believe only a small group within the Church, called "overcomers"), under submission to the latter day apostles and prophets, is that man child, and that it has the responsibility to put down all rebellion and establish righteousness. This necessitates the utilization of supernatural power and the full implementation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. This theory is based upon the idea that all authority in heaven and on the earth has been given to Jesus. Since believers are indwelt by the same Holy Spirit that indwelt Jesus, we have all authority in heaven and on the earth; we have the power to believe for and speak into existence things that are not, and thus we can bring about the Kingdom Age. The many-membered man child must take control of the earth before Jesus can return.

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi All, Thank you ul, for your excellent research and through this you show your love for us and His Church.
I would agree whole heartly with Al Dager's writings about the dangers in this abberant teaching. This was commonly taught in Maranatha although there were warnings. It disheartens me to see, it continue as Ul and Bill have shown with their research with original documents. It seems to be a call to those who maybe didn't know then ; but now with the evidence out for all to see. Something needs to done by these persons. The Breans searched the scripture , to see if they were being told as true. And in addition did this line up with the whole counsel of His word, as it says the sum of the Word is truth. We are all call to do this.

[john_r_jones (john_r_jones)]

Every Nation is another way to spell HUBRIS.
John

[another_brick_in_the_wall (another_brick_in_the_wall)]

Jim Laffoon: He looks down at every empty educator.

Jim Laffoon: I look for the day when God helps us train them and equip them (the youth) how to think,

Jim Laffoon: ungodly educators your day is coming.

<<<<<Do you guys see a pattern of subtle verbal denouncing of education, educators, and a child's right to think?

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

"Up for grabs"! Well keep your grabby paws off my family, my city and my nation in Jesus name.

It is not theirs for the taking. It is for Jesus Christ to decide who rules and reigns. I for one as a Christian don't let anyone steal the values of my children and neither am I ever going to allow EN to dictate those values either in a Theocratic regime with Pastor Rice Broocks as World President.

EN's values include having a senior leader whose daughter has an affair with one of his own pastors right under his nose and who is careless and untrustworthy with finances. This same pastor accused of other affairs and mismanagement, another senior apostle finally dismissed for infidelity and financial impropriety after some months and previously years of coverup. Neatly dismissed after a cooling off period. A lawsuit for abuse in Nashville?

Since when is humanity sewerage to swim in? God does not look at man and see @#$% ! He sees a world He loves!

Why has God ordained EN only to do this great work that Rice boasts about? What evidence has Rice that God has mandated EN alone to do this?

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Hey Brick - Good to hear from you. Yes - I did notice that too. The book Rich Dad Poor Dad was very popular in my MSI/EN church.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Brick, in a way I know where the stand on education comes from b/c I have a masters degree in English from a secular university. I was a baby Christian too when I started grad school... I was saved in January and started school the following August. Anyway, I soon learned that the point of grad school wasn't to teach freshmen how to write, it was to show us how to dismantle students' existing beliefs and thought processes and turn them into postmodernists - and basically undermine the existence of absolute truth in their minds.

I had a few things going for me (1) I was a Christian and indwelled with the Holy Spirit, even though I was a baby Christian at that (2) the assumption was that the master's students, most of whom had gone through that university as undergrads, were already inculcated as postmodernists, while I was 15 or so years older than most of them and so still believed in things like absolute truth even before I became a Christian (3) I was determined that I wasn't going to turn freshman English into a political seminar of any persuasion, right or left, and that I was going to encourage critical thinking and teach them the best I could how to make logical arguments on paper - and also prepare them for their future classes in whatever major - which I knew later on down the road might include what I was being "taught" to teach them to believe/think but wouldn't go along with. In fact, among my assignments in my second semester academic writing class was finding the logical fallacies of articles that were supposedly "foundational" to postmodern thought (even though it's technically not built on a foundation but on an abyss - Derrida). I have to say that was a lot of fun!!!!

So my solution at the time (I must add I wasn't getting "discipled" in a very systematic way, even though yes, I was active in a charismatic church) was to not do anything that violated my conscience, be as much of a Christian light/witness/salt as one can legally be in a secular university classroom, and teach my students... several of whom were also Christians btw... to express themselves and argue points coherently in writing. That last part was challenge enough, let me tell you http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif. And most of all, I TAUGHT, I didn't INCULCATE. I didn't win any popularity contests throughout the semester b/c I also asked them to do things like work and attend class regularly (for a while I got a bunch of 8AM sections for that reason, hehehe), but I did get a lot of comments about how I taught them things they could use later on... things like, this was the most useful class I had this semester, etc. etc.

I see so many parallels between what I was exposed to in grad school and what EN's solution is, even though the ideology is somewhat different. It's become... who can inculcate first. Who can deconstruct and reconstruct first. However, it's the Holy Spirit Who leads God's children into truth. While discipling is certainly important, since one of Jesus' commands in the Great Commission is to teach all that he taught us to do (so it's not Reach and Rule, it's Reach and TEACH), the real Teacher is the Holy Spirit - see who discipled Paul, btw - it wasn't the other apostles. Jesus appeals to our hearts AND minds. His apostles, like Paul, did the same thing, rather than just commanding even though Paul said he had the authority to do so. Jesus doesn't want us to be automatons, not even for Him. And while I wasn't fully cognizant of this then b/c I was still such a young Christian, the main thing I tried to do was get out of the Holy Spirit's way and not try to replace or supplant it in the lives of my students who happened to be Christians.

blessings,
ulyankee

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

ulyankee,

"You see, when the enemy finds an apostolic family under authority, when he finds a people who walk as family, with power over the enemy, filled with righteousness [builds] yet realizing their great destiny on the earth is not just to shine and not just to look good, that they are there to somehow birth a generation that once they’ve paid the cost to reach every nation they could hand those nations to their children and their grandchildren and say, “NOW RULE THEM!”

Now I see what Bruce Harpel meant when he would blurt out, "He's mine!" Harpel believes that he can own people since he thinks he's part of this New Agae paradigm of claiming the nations and people for his "inheritance" as the Manchild Company. Lafoon just made what I suspected all along crystal clear. Bruce Harpel creates psychological slaves out of University of Minnesota students and uses them as his "inheritance" i.e. involunatry servitude.

ALCHEMICAL DEATH AND RESURRECTION

You wrote,

"Who can deconstruct and reconstruct first.

You are describing the process of age-old alchemy applied to brainwashing. This has already been documented in numerous medical publications and many books.

The alchemist must first break down the compound they are working with, through fire (real or philosophical), into prima materia. After that, the alchemist "resurrects" the prima materia into a higher form by rearranging the compound.

In the case with the post-modern English instructor, they are led to psychologically break down or "kill" the student. This represents the "death" part of alchemy. Then you mention a process of "reconstruction" where the students are taught to think postmodern. This is the act of "resurrection." When the vast majority of students are "resurrected" or "reconstructed" to the desired postmodern paradigm thinking, society then shifts into the quest of a "New Age" of Human Potential and a non-reliance upon the God of the Bible.

There very same alchemical (or using the older word "alchemystical") method is continually used and cycled by the false leaders of MCM/MSI/ENC and the NOLR. They "kill" or break down the student's cognitive thinking by refusing to let the student challenge what the false leaders are telling them. To make the process toward "group-think" smoother, they couple the brainwashing sessions with the LOVE-BOMBING of after-service dinners and weekly "fellowship" encounters.

I watched a 20/20 show where the host interviews a groups of 20-year-olds for the purpose of understanding their buying habits. The "New" generation apparently isn't watching TV and hence the $billions of dollars spent on advertising isn't working like it used to. The host stated that this new generation had the following characteristics:

1) Homosexual marriage was acceptible
2) They had to work in groups. There was virtually no individual initiative.
3) They grew up being trained to expect a reward (small or whatever) for each task accomplished. The host kept mentioning this reward-oriented attitude.
4) A great amount of time was spent on the web. Everybody had their IPods.

I believe, based upon perhaps 100's of personal encounters, that the above holds true in many respects. If so, then we have a generation that is easily manipulated "hoodwinked" into believing the quest of the Philadelphians i.e. to create a "Christ" within this generation. This would be the luciferian "Man-Isis" that Rosicrucian Swinburne Clymer wrote about in his book, "Sons of God."

The quest of "Apostle" Jim Lafoon and other ENC/NOLR leaders is to get a new generation to commit to unconditional contemplative submission to brainwashing techniques aka "Discipleship/shepherding" or "accountability partners" and lockstep their New Kingdom Age paradign in parallel with the political and economic One World Order. But they must continually play with the wording and terminology. If they are questioned as to what they are doing, they give vague answers or no answers. There is also a strategy they developed to deal with resisters (http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/04/4-purpose-resisters.htm) as well.

These Alchemcal techniques of "Death and Resurrection", especially as applied psycho-spiritually, have been used for centuries in the Greek Mystery Schools, Rosicrucians, Freemasonry, the cults of the 1960's and 1970's all the way to the 21st century.

--Bill

[aletheia (aletheia)]

Lafoon's pep rally for Dominionism, Kingdom Now, XN Reconstructionism? Behold, the next generation of God's Green Berets.

Rice Broocks' closing comment <font color="0000ff">"it's not just about jumping into the sewer, I can do this.."</font> (Rice in a sewer - LOL!)

Ulyankee - I don't see any Manifest Sons doctrine in there. Your thoughts?

Many thanks again to you (Ul) and Bill Mack for transcribing that long sermon.

a.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

ENLI quotes:

"God is our Father and we are all brothers; the only enemy is any attitude that undermines universal unity." (Evangelism I)

"If we are to experience the blessings of spiritual family it will take both commitment and a biblical understanding of authority." (Foundations)

"If we leave a church every time our feelings are hurt or we don’t get our own way, we will never experience the benefits of spiritual family." (Foundations)

"Spiritual foundations are established through obedience." (Discipleship)

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Aletheia,

I see quite a bit of Manifest Sons of God doctrine in the following:

--implying that the generation of 20s and under as the (man)child who will rule that will be birthed by us, the church, which is equated to the woman in Revelation
--stating that they/we will be the ones to rule with an iron scepter if they/we merely ask for it.
--implying that the rapture will not be a literal event but that the next generation will be brought up to lordship and protected in order to rule the nations of the earth.

(that's just a start)

" Latter-Rain teachers (http://www.ozemail.com.au/~rseaborn/New_Apostolic_Reformation.html) have long used Revelation 12, teaching that the woman in this passage is the church and the "Man child" to be born is a spiritual second coming of Christ into His corporate body."

" All Scriptures (http://www.reachouttrust.org/articles/doctrine/manifest.htm) that refer to being caught up to the throne of God are thought to have their fulfilment at this manifestation of the Sons of God, the "many-membered man child" company that will rule the nations with a rod of iron."

"Some believe (http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain1.htm) that the second coming of Jesus is to be “in the Church,” before he comes for the Church. That the Church, his body will actually become Christ on earth, glorious and triumphant. They will go Conquer the land and then rule the nations with a rod of iron. Some believe that after the Church has taken dominion over the nations, she will hasten the day that will call Jesus back to earth and hand the nations over to Him."

"This great end-time (http://watch.pair.com/rain.html) Company is really the "Manchild" of Revelation 12 which will rule the nations with a rod of iron. (You will need to replace Israel with the Church in this passage.) Yes, this end-time Church is also the prophetic fulfillment of the dreadful army in Joel 2, which is God’s agent of judgment to cleanse the earth of evil during the "times of restitution." (You will find this army also in Revelation 9!) Since the Manifest Sons of God are "the Christ," they will be putting all things under their (oops!) His feet, including the "old order" brethren."

Hope these links &amp; quotes help. If it's not explicitly Manifest Sons of God, then it's at the very least Kingdom Now (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/k00.html#kingnow).

blessings,
ulyankee

[another_brick_in_the_wall (another_brick_in_the_wall)]

ulyankee,
thanks for your insight into the education aspect of JL's sermon. imho, i still feel that JL is bashing education and critical thinking, as a whole.

lc20,
great to see you on board, too. good insight on that book.

and to echo speakword's posting... i cringe at the thought of JL's and RB's "sermon" or "exhortation" to a hotel room filled to the max of MSI-turned-EN members cheering, applauding these words. once you take time to really analyze JL's 2004 conference speech...

i can't believe that no attendees had any bells, flags to go off when the EN leaders are comparing a victory by being good little workers and inserting themselves into the sewer...

[40days40years (40days40years)]

I still think that sewer is the love of money and the EN leaders are already defiled before they jump into it. Another thing I don't think the leper was saying, man I don't want to dip into that dirty Jordan.

Their message of restoration rulership has already been tried it is called colonialism. What do you think the Catholic church has done for hundreds of years combined with the colonial powers?, they ruled. Another thing that bothers me about Jims message is how he talks about the message has gone out over and over and nothing changes. You know, so what? Every generation and nation has got to decide who they will serve, they have to hear the message and then decide if they will accept it or reject if for themselves.

Rulership I thought the greatest would serve? Why after giving the message to people and they accept it, why would you want to rule over your fellow brothers and sisters anyway? Slavery has two evils, one is what it does to the poor slave the other evil is what it does to those who possess the power of the slave master that is why the institution is so dastardly. Being a ruler in the context of a reconstructionist/dominionist is a pretty messy thing. Lots of power, lots of pain, why pray that your child would have a part in that?, why not pray that they would love and serve Jesus and maybe get that pony farm they always wanted.

Look at Jims last prayer closing out the service.

“Father come now, write your name upon our foreheads, as we meditate on your word, as we confess your word, as you transform us, let your name GLOW on our foreheads!” God I pray that you would SEAL this generation! You would SEAL us with discipleship! SEAL us with accountability! SEAL us with family! SEAL us with your word! Filling us with your LOVE and your GRACE and your POWER. And as you seal us, keep us, give us the wisdom to be inserted into every area that affects culture, that we’re trusting your sealing, your blessing, and your help.

Now compare that to the prayers of Christ before his crucifixion asking the disciples to love one another I want that prayer I don't want to be sealed with accountability to what they call discipleship, thanks but no thanks. I would like to think that when God says ask me for the nations it means what the missionaries of old thought it meant that God would let them reach the lost, not some mandate to take dominion.

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

brick,

"i can't believe that no attendees had any bells, flags to go off when the EN leaders are comparing a victory by being good little workers and inserting themselves into the sewer..."

I went to a WWII discussion group last year with my dad, a WWII vet. The subject was the German ship Bismark (http://www.kbismarck.com/painting30.html) -- one of the largest amd most dangerous ships (http://www.kbismarck.com/genedata.html) ever built during WWII. The quest was to build an unsinkable warship in record time that would turn the tide in favor of the Nazis.

The guest speaker was one of the Germans who, as a youth just out of high school, was recruited among 1000's to build the ship. It was a secret project at the time and all workers were carefully screened and sworn to secrecy according to this guest German speaker named "Fritz".

"Fritz" describes to the group what it was like when Adolf Hitler (http://www.britishpathe.com/thumb_clips.php?id=4560) came to look at the finished Bismark and give a victory speech (http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=5562). Fritz told the crowd of WWII vets that when Adolf Hitler spoke, there was a hypnotic spell that captivated everyone with a strong sense that he was a type of god. The German workers were mesmerized. No one dared speak out against this Furher (http://www.graphicaddicts.net/tutorials/hitler.jpg) because he commanded such a presense and his Plan of World Dominion (http://www.cronologia.it/storia/a1940zd.htm) was described by "Fritz" as a plan to restore the world to a utopian state (http://www.time.com/time/pacific/magazine/20001120/utopia.html).

Hitler spent a great deal of time and money collecting occult paraphernalia for the purpose of obtaining supernatural powers so as to take the world into a 1000-year Reich or "Rule." One of the items Adolf Hitler secured was the "Spear of Longinus" also know as the Spear of Destiny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear_of_Destiny). This is supposedly the spear that the Roman Centurian Longinus (http://www.ar-t.org/What_s_New/Spear_of_Longinus/spear_of_longinus.html) used to pierce the side of Jesus Christ when he was on the cross. According to legend, whoever possesses this spear with also possess the power to rule and reign.

So it is with the ENC/NOLR leaders. Whether they fully realize it or not, they have secured occult writings and believe these writings to be prophetically truth and genuine. Like the NOLR, they are using music, using the Bible metaphor of "the Restoration of the Tabernacle of David" to lure their members to create this state (http://www.richard-seaman.com/USA/States/Hawaii/Oahu/KualoaPoint/KualoaPointWithPalmTrees.jpg). Of course, this has all been tried before (http://www.welcomehome.org/rainbow/graphics/utopia.jpg), but when the members are mesmerized, they can't get out of the psychological box they are in.

ENC is offering to its members nothing less than the immortality promised to all Christians after they die. The Bible says that Jesus Christ will finally descend from the clouds, per Revelation chap 1, and take up those who remain alive. The occult writings that ENC/NOLR are reading mix all sorts of non-biblical occult beliefs with the concepts from the Bible. The resultant mixture promises a quick trip to the Promised Land, but only if one *OBEYS and SUBMITS* (the two top words in Bruce Harpel's vocabulary) to the new *RESTORED* "Apostles and Prophets." Like the Germans were sadly led astray by leadership who had secretly delved into the occult, so it is with MCM/MSI/ENC and NOLR self-proclaimed leaders who embraced the 17th century occultic writings of a particular society whose objective was to usher in a NEW AGE.

We ask ourselves, "How could these Christians go along with such stupidity, especially when the evidence is so clear that what they are doing is not of God?"

Of course, this is the $10-million dollar question. I witnessed a 25-year-old member of Mike Bickle's occult music society go through psychological treatment after he was spiritually abused. Even during his horrific experience with mind-control, he still could not understand that Mike Bickle (http://www.pitch.com/issues/2002-10-10/news/feature_print.html) was an occult leader. Of course, Mike Bickle is good friends (http://www.intotruth.org/tb/toronto2.html) with Bob Weiner and both share the same occult utopian theology.

When you look at a cult, you must realize that the cult members do and say things as a group that are often contrary to what they would do as individuals outside of the cult to the degree that the "group-think" psychological state has taken hold of their mind and soul.

Blessings,

--Bill

[upcase20 (upcase20)]

Glad you mentioned "group think". Yes people acting in a group will behave quite differently than if they were acting as individuals. This was well documented in the Stanley Milgram experiments.

(Message edited by upcase20 on December 08, 2005)

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

I must admit that my reaction to hearing JL's preaching was much different while in the office, alone in the car, and particularly when transcribing it (so you have to pay attention to every single word and inflection) than it would have been in a group setting. To be honest, I couldn't get through the whole thing the first time around b/c I was nearly ill, and had to force myself to go back later.

My hope and prayer is that people either listen to the tape/cd/dvd or read what is quoted here and make their own conclusions, between themselves and the Lord, as guided by Scripture and the Holy Spirit, and not as colored by a stadium atmosphere. This isn't a football game. This is serious stuff, imho, regardless of what one ends up concluding about it.

I didn't realize until after I left EN and started going through my notes, tapes, etc. how much totally went under the radar. I was just as gung-ho for all things EN as anyone else... I was shocked, and humbled too. My intellect, education, etc. meant NOTHING. My ONLY strength, protection and deliverance is in the Lord Jesus - and this sure drove that point home.

Brick, I *totally* agree with you. My point is that disdain exists on both sides of the fence, even if it is for seemingly different ideological reasons. However, if you do some digging, the philosophical and theosophical roots of what we're seeing in the resurgent Latter Rain and in postmodernism are almost exactly the same - and in several places cross paths one to another. In contrast, it makes me think of the apostle Paul and his opposition to Greek philosophy. He certainly didn't advocate incorporating it into the Gospel to make it more palatable.

blessings,
ulyankee

[fast_mph (fast_mph)]

Questions for you all:

If you’re a Christian what does it mean to "Go &amp; make disciples"? What does this look like. Please don’t rip on the abuse but tell me what you believe bibliccally it means.

Secondly-
How does God see unsaved humanity? Be more than 1 dimensional. How does he see sin?

Are Christians supposed to rule &amp; reign in life at all? What or who?

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

fast_mph, I'm glad to hear from a current EN member. I believe that Jesus told us in the Great Commission to go to all the nations to preach the good news of the Gospel of Christ - that Christ is the salvation of those who believe - and to teach people to do the things He commanded. Those who repent, believe in Christ as risen Lord and Savior, and so are saved and indwelled by the Holy Spirit will be empowered to do this - apart from the Holy Spirit it is impossible, just as the Law was impossible to keep perfectly. That last part-teaching to do all that Christ commanded-is what I believe "discipleship" is. I think Acts and the epistles are the best Biblical examples we have in how the "next generation" after Christ's death and resurrection did this. I don't believe that literally ruling nations is part of what He taught us to do before His return. In fact, one of the things He taught us was to render unto Caesar (secular government) what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's - so we are to respect secular governments, even corrupt ones. So I don't believe that attempting to infiltrate and overthrow secular governments is at all in line with this - in fact, I believe it contradicts this. I DO believe that we will rule and reign with Him in His time... but I don't agree with a dominionist mindset that Christ can't or won't come back until we take dominion for Him first. As others have noted, that has been tried before at various points in church history with disastrous results. I'm not at all saying that Christians shouldn't be in the political realm... but I do believe that we should always remember that our citizenship is not of this world.

John 3:16 - God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but shall have eternal life.

He loves the world but hates sin. Jesus Christ is the ONLY salvation for a lost and dying world. There WILL be judgment for sin. However, I also believe that will be in HIS time, for He is allowing time for as many to come to know Him through Jesus as possible, in His grace and mercy. He isn't just grace and mercy... and He isn't just judgment - he is both. (See 2 Peter 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&amp;chapter=3&amp;version=31).) Jesus said that only the Father knows the time of His return. So anyone who claims to know when that time will come claims to know something that only the Father knows. We are to be always ready for His return, and keep watch.

fast, what is your take on Jim Laffoon's World Conference sermon, if you don't mind me asking?

blessings,
ulyankee

[dust (dust)]

This is my first post..but it will not be my last, now that I have finally decided (with nervousness) to come forward. I was there at that conference, and you have no idea what it is like to sit there and "hear" something you know absolutely, without question, just CANNOT be from the Father. I had already, at that time, had many moments of my spirit feeling sick in this ministry. The "sick" part comes from hearing wrong things, in the wrong spirit, from people you have grown to love, admire, respect, and have also become a part of YOUR OWN IDENTITY.
The psychological trip of the opened eyes and ears of this ministry is that you must also see yourself and what drew you in.
I am not here just to expose, but also please know I have had to do a lot of repenting.

Getting back to the SERMON ON REACHING AND RULING. I just couldn't believe what I was hearing....and the crowd (group think) truly not realizing that this is never something Jesus could preach, went crazy with their applause. I don't want to say that these men are evil. But this speech was NOT from God. I don't say this flippantly or bitterly. I say this because I tested it against scripture. I wept. I prayed. I was turned inside out from this. The Word is one tool God gave us for truth, and the Holy Spirit is another venue, and the Holy Spirt shook me up that day.

I chose NOT to post, until I felt healed and in forgiveness. So if anything spills out of me that sounds unloving or bitter, please correct. (Gal 6:1
Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.)

I want to expose truth mainly so people who LOVE GOD, BELIEVE in JESUS CHRIST will know they are not rebels when they begin to “see.” But the main thing I want to do is OPEN THE EYES OF THE LEADERS To SEE the TRUTH and so themselves will be able to repent as I have. I am not claiming here victim-hood and hurt feelings. I was part of it and I take responsibility for my own self-ambition.

God showed me my ways and corrected me and put me back on the right path. He can do this for those who truly seek Him.

For by grace you have been saved by faith, and that NOT of yourselves, it is a Gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. (Eph 2:8-9)

Dust........

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Go and make disciples means by experience, As a Former Discipler in maranatha is that I have to live and practice like Christ. Then as I people got saved, I teach them by EXAMPLE in my life NOT LORDING OVER THEIR FAITH as Peter said. I teach them how to hear Jesus voice, because Jesus said that for the SHEEP HEARS MY VOICE (not mine like EN always do).
Great example of discipleship is that when you are married, then your children start to look like your BEST FRIEND . Would you be concerned and worried ? Or even start to get angry ?
HOW DO YOU THINK JESUS FEELS ????

Discipleship is the same way. OUR DISCIPLES ARE SUPPOSED TO LOOKED LIKE JESUS CHRIST ! NOT YOU NOR ME ! They are supposed to learn to HEAR HIM ! and LOOK LIKE HIM !

how does God see unsaved humanity ? Simple John 3:16. For God SO LOVED THAT WORLD, That he is able and willing to give up The one He love most , His only Son. SO that the whole world would be Saved.
My answer is LOVE.

Bible also say ITS THE KINDNESS AND GOODNESS of God That leads to repentance.
Its being kind and good to people, by showing example that make people repent NOT TRY TO SCARE THEM TO HELL. NOR NAG them that they should repent.

How God see sin ? He see Jesus is the answer.

Are Christians supposed to rule and reign in life at all ? YES. Paul already said that the Holy Spirit have GIVEN US EVERYTHING we need in life.
WE rule our own emotions, our own thinking, NOT OVER PEOPLE. Because Jesus said thats Paganistic (demonic).
FOR PAGANS EXERCISE THEIR AUTHORITY OVER YOU BUT NOT SO WITH YOU .
It meant we do not rule over people we serve them thats how we rule and reign in life. Jesus gave clear example in His walk.

[livingwaterman (livingwaterman)]

Fast_mph

Fast when I look at the commands at the end of Matthew and Mark I remember that Jesus is my example. The first step in making disciples is to become one yourself. For instance at the end of Luke it says not to go...but to wait and at the end of John it says to recieve the Holy Spirit and then talks about forgiveness. A big thing about a true diciple is they do what they see the Father doing and say what they hear the Father saying. The only way for us to do this is by a deep abiding relationship with the Holy Spirit. When you are led by the Spirit you "draw" people. The people in EN (and I know this from first hand experience becasue I was once a leader at least locally in this movement and I have personally met and argued with a lot of the people being talked about here)"push" people. Jesus held loosly and allowed people space to repent or leave. EN in general holds people by downgrading all other Christian movements and by using fear as a manipulative tatic. The word Christian (which EN downgrades all the time) means little Christs or like Christs. To be a follower (disciple) means to imitate Christ. Based on my personal interactions with these people when they are not behind some pulpit they do a very poor job of imitating Christ. They generally do not have deep abiding relationships with the Holy Spirit. They talk a good game but without the fruit in their life their words are empty. The most important thing in life is not dominion it is love (agape to be exact). To disciple people you must model agape and Paul says in one place the only thing that matters is faith expressing itself through love. You must love people enough to tell them that they are wrong but you must love them to embrace them as they are if they are truely trying to repent and change. To know if they are trying to change vs. playing some maniputlative game of their own you need to the discernment that comes from a deep abiding relationship with God through the Holy Spirit.

Regarding unsaved humanity we can only see glimpses of how God views things. Sin is awful and it pushes God away. He can truly not tolerate it. That is why the Cross had to be. I am struck by what Moses saw in Exodus 33-34 where he saw the back of God and heard how gracious God is. God once gave me a revelation about the grace and back of God. A body so beaten it did not look human. Thats what sin did and that was the price that had to be paid. We must always confront sin but it is very clear we must do it in a loving way. Rice at times when he says don't come to me with those cigerates etc... clean up and then talk to me about God is frankly a fool. It is the Holy Spirit indwelling inside us that cleans us up not outward acts of will.

Christians are supposed to rule and reign but not in the way EN thinks. First you must rule and reign your own life. What does that look like? A good book on this is the 7 Habits even though written by a Morman and it has some objectionable content at times it has very good principles about living a self controlled life. The bottom line though it looks like Jesus. A scripture somewhere says that it better to control yourself than to own several walled cities. Many people are controlled by sin and lusts of the flesh etc.. and I am talking about Christians here. Once we regin here we help order our families, friends businesses institutions and as far as we can run them and influence them to be Christlike. Frankly it is up to God to decide how the world will go we must do our part (i.e. occupy until He comes). I do not think from scripture we can say that Christians will take over the world before His return dogmatically like EN does.

Bottomline is these guys talk a good game in public but have all kinds of issues in real life. There really are Christian ministers that live what they say these guys don't. As scripture says you will know them by their fruit.

Have to go....

May you be blessed and a blessing

LWM

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Dust, welcome and thank you so much for posting. I went through the same exact thing as you, not at the World Conference, but three months earlier while a visiting EN leader/teacher came to our local church and taught something similar about taking literal dominion and having all Christ's authority now to do so. At the end we were supposed to shout a shout of victory but I just cried to the Lord. In fact, I cried for most of the next two months, until I left my former church. I got the tape just to verify for myself whether it was really as bad as it seemed at the time, and when I listened to it was actually worse than what I remembered (throughout I was praying that the Lord protect me and my heart from what I was hearing, and even though I was taking notes like crazy I didn't catch it all). That was the first sermon I transcribed btw, b/c I found it was one way I could know for sure what was really said in context, by going through it word for word.

I was told later on that perhaps I had a "religious spirit" keeping me from accepting this teaching. There's a book out now edited by C. Peter Wagner about this so-called "religious spirit" keeping people from accepting what "the Spirit is saying to the churches" (it basically states that holding to Christian orthodoxy is the result of deception by this "religious spirit") and the person who gave this sermon in my local church contributed a chapter to this book! At the time, I believed that this wasn't a "religious spirit" at all but the HOLY SPIRIT convicting me of the truth in Christ, and I am utterly convinced of this now. The HOLY SPIRIT testifies to Christ Jesus.

I am so grateful that the Lord protected me and that I didn't trade in the Holy Spirit, didn't trade in my birthright through salvation in the Lord Jesus, for this other spirit, and I am glad you didn't either. My prayers are with you, my brother in Christ.

blessings,
ulyankee

[fast_mph (fast_mph)]

Ulyankee- Hello again. Yes, I'm a current member of EN. I come back to this board because I want to try to be a different viewpoint to the people who just read this but don't respond. I personally have friends that have joined the church family here in Indy and then they start building relationships, maturing in there faith. Many time returning to there first love, Christ. They feel God called them to this family and they are really pleased about God's faithfulness of helping them find a church family. Than they stumble on this website and they end up dazed and confused questioning everything the pastor says. They are looking for an angle upon any suggestion. Fear &amp; doubt set in and then they feel so defeated. I have to come along at that time as well as others and encourage them to ask God what he desires for them and what has there experience been with these tremendous accusations. I'm sure this site helps some but it really hurts others.


Your question:
fast, what is your take on Jim Laffoon's World Conference sermon, if you don't mind me asking?

I read it.
I wasn't there to fully understand the context.

Just by reading it without being there. I agree with 90% of it and the 10% I don't is mainly is from a lack of understanding of his heart and motives behind the message to rule.

Could there be error? Yes.
The word of God will is my final authority, not Jim Laffoon. I respect him and believe he operates in the Prophetic gifting. I believe as I've met him that he's genuine. I have a gift of discernment and sensed very much he a authentic and loves Jesus Christ. He's still a man.

The rule &amp; reign concept is perceived by most people as Christians Lording over people by being in places of powerful influence all over the world. World domination mentality.

The bible tells me I live on planet that is ruled by Lucifer &amp; his band of angelic realm who are demons. Fallen Man is under his rule. The way I interpret this is people are under the rule of darkness until God's kingdom advances through Christians. John 8:42 says we are Children of the Devil and we do what out master desires.

Let me put this in real prospective. I desire for God's Kingdom to be advanced in Every Nation. I would bet you do to! I know he's going to use Christians. HE will use Every Nation Church and others to do this. We are not elite, we are not the only ones but God has given this Church a specific mandate to reach Campuses and Nations.

The stats are that more than 80% of people receive Christ before the age of 25. That's the college years. Most all these people will be in a place of influence over other people because of a job in 10 years. Why not have them be committed followers of Christ. I want that.

EN gets into nations where preachers aren't welcome because of Athletics and the business world. Why not have powerful influential people who nations respect and leverage this to get in these countries to share God's love and his kingdom rule "over darkness"

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi FastMph,
You and I have chatted before. One thought to consider is that if the gospel being forwarded by En is tainted ; in the opinion of many experts not the true word but Kingdom Now teachings gospel mixed in with Latter rain teachings. Would this be a good idea , would that be blessed by God. I was a leader in this group, and agree with many other former leaders and members have said here. If fellow Christian read the threads here; maybe they are seeing and hearing the truth with a witness in their hearts.}

(Message edited by coppertree on December 08, 2005)

[forword (forword)]

Fast, thank you for your bravery posting to defend MSI/EN here. I have been lurking these boards for a year and a half now and have only posted once almost a year ago, I think using a different name. After reading your last post, I was moved to respond to a few of your statements.

<HE will use Every Nation Church and others to do this. We are not elite, we are not the only ones but God has given this Church a specific mandate to reach Campuses and Nations.>

Did He now? Where does scripture back this up? Our only specific mandates are from Christ. Any mandate for a church to reach out specifically to Campuses and Nations is from a man.
" Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (Matt 22:37-40)
This is our mandate!

<The stats are that more than 80% of people receive Christ before the age of 25. That's the college years. Most all these people will be in a place of influence over other people because of a job in 10 years. Why not have them be committed followers of Christ. I want that. >

So what! Jesus wants ALL to be saved. (1Tim 2:4) I was taught not to waste my time on anyone that wasn’t a potential leader. This is not the gospel, which is good news to ALL. (Luke 2:10) If Jesus had been following Morningstar mandates, he surely would not have wasted time with Zacchaeus… oh, wait, yes he would have because Zacchaeus was rich. Well, he wouldn’t have spent so much time with Mary and Martha. He might be tempted! And besides, we all know women tend to gossip too much so he wouldn’t want to be in a prayer group with them. You think I am stretching? Well I’m not, because these are the kind of things witnessed with my own eyes and heard with my own ears from mouths of top MSI leaders.

<EN gets into nations where preachers aren't welcome because of Athletics and the business world. Why not have powerful influential people who nations respect and leverage this to get in these countries to share God's love and his kingdom rule "over darkness">

That all sounds so good, and I bought it for almost 5 years, but it is a lie. If it were true, then Jesus would have gone to the prominent in Jewish society to reach out to the world. God’s way is to use the most unlikely people. He finds the diamonds in the rough. He hides things from the “wise” and reveals them to babes. (Matt 11:25, Luke 10:21) He used illiterate fisherman to change the world. He does not need our sports heros or our wealthy businessmen to reach the world. That is a fleshy, corporate, man driven mindset.

There is so much more I could say and will eventually, but here is my bottom line. Jesus came to serve. He taught his disciples to serve. (Matt 20:25-28) While there is nothing wrong with speaking in tongues, prophecy, or martyrdom, 1 Cor 13:1-3 makes it clear that these things are meaningless and useless without Love.

Your church in Indy may be great. People are probably getting saved and all may look well with the world. However, beware. If there are ties to EN, then there will be troubles ahead, because EN does not serve God but serves the visions and agendas of men. It cannot and will not stand. When it falls, people will be hurt. I hope you do not become one of the wounded. Do not put your faith in men, no matter how great those men appear to be. Look to the Lord, study your bible, and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you and teach you truth. You do not need Me, Rice Broocks or anyone else to find what is true. BP

[dust (dust)]

Fastmph,
You said:
Just by reading it without being there. I agree with 90% of it and the 10% I don't is mainly is from a lack of understanding of his heart and motives behind the message to rule.

A great help for you would be to see if the Word agrees with it. Take the statements and take them to the Word. Also, pray for illumination of the Holy Spirit. We all have our biases for wanting to believe something. Get a good solid Christian friend from a non/never been involved EN church to look at it with you.....

I try hard not to say statements, such as "I agree with 90%." because I don't trust my own thinking...I must go to where the standard is set. Also, something I learned in VLI.

The devil will give you the truth and then put in a lie somewhere so you don't recognize it. So if you believe 90%, what 10% might be a lie?


What does it mean when a people rule. He didn't say, Jesus will rule the heart...he said, our children will rule...and it will be different than what missionaries have done for the past 2000 years, which is preach the gospel and reach people for Christ. Now "we will reach and rule." So, what does rule mean? We will rule with OUR heart? Well,surely, the missionaries who went, to REACH, preached the gospel and did it from a Godly heart. So what is DIFFERENT?

What does RULE mean? You seriously must face this. Does it mean: that all the law will be changed and the only people who can hold political positions and media positions and education positions and movie producing positions and medical positions will be Christians? How, do you do that? Why, do you do that? Where did Jesus do that? He left this world a mess, politically, and made ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that if anyone was coming to Christ, it was through Jesus and not through anything else. Just because your doctor is Christian, and your teacher is Christian, and your mayor is Christian and your accountant is Christian, doesn't mean you are going to be Christian. I was completely surrounded by non Christians when I got saved. You see, those unsaved people actually "helped" me realize I needed something different than what they could offer.

Christians do INFLUENCE a culture MAINLY by their LOVE, KINDNESS, and unwavering belief in their Savior, and in their HUMILITY, GRACE, MERCY, and TRUTH. Yes, but when you paint a picture of "ruling" you don't paint love, mercy, kindness, humility. You paint PRIDE, Self-Righteousness.

[dust (dust)]

And jim Lafoon goes on to say that they are realizing their great destiny on the earth is not just to shine and not just to look good, that they are there to somehow birth a generation that once they’ve paid the cost to reach every nation they could hand those nations to their children and their grandchildren and say, “NOW RULE THEM!” [applause and cheers]

Okay, how do you hand a group of people over to another group of people to rule. If they had already reached them, what need would there be to rule them? And, again this is a very dangerous speech, because you CANNOT legislate righteousness in the name of Jesus Christ. This is what ISLAM does. Track the history and you will see the "reach and rule." Also, it's been tried by the Christian church too. And, it is something the church is now ashamed of. So, please, don't let other men do your thinking for you.

Why is EN birthing a generation that is better than what Paul and Peter birthed? They are saying in essence that they will do a better job than any past missionaires. Is EN better than the apostles that planted the first churches. Is there "mission" of a new and different design...one that only athletes could bring.

Remember Paul said, when I am weak, then I am strong. It was in his WEAKNESS that he could preach Christ, because Paul had to remove everything that was Paul.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Thanks for posting fast mph. I know there are lots of kind sincere christians in EN and some of your churches are much better than others. To a certain extent I feel kind of sad for your friends that love their church and then stumble into here, no one likes to hear that their church leadership has a history of major problems. It hurts I do think it is a valid question though, what does rule mean to your leaders? There is a history behind the theology of that message Jim presented. Ultimatly they are talking about throwing people up against walls, intimidating people or God empowering them to take control. Their rule is fleshly. They want to promote a system where apostles walk in unlimited power and cannot be questioned because it would be the same as questioning God. Many of the upper leaders do not seem to comprehend that absolute power corrupts absolutly unless your God. These men really have no checks or balances on their use of power or very limited checks and balances. They have a long history of abusing their authority I don't believe it is just a little minor thing. Why should they be trusted to rule? Why are those at the top not truelly repenting and putting in some checks and balances to their system and giving themselves a demotion in their own hearts?

[another_brick_in_the_wall (another_brick_in_the_wall)]

dust, fast_mph, and forword...

welcome to the board. thank you so much for your courage and strength to post your opinions and insights.

blessings.

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

dust, fast_mph, and forword...

*DITTO* Welcome aboard. You guys have made my day and the bad guys and the Lord and everyone else is watching this little arena. I'm itching to see what the "neutral party in Japan" will say about all this when he gets a round tuit.

--Bill

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

The claim that some Christians within EN have a tough time dealing with what they read on Factnet is interesting.

1. People obviously realise that something stinks. They can't quite grasp it or have suspicions and therefore do their own research instead of swallowing pulpit propaganda. This confirms my belief that the Holy Spirit is helping people to hear or see.

2. EN is failing to indoctrinate its members well enough or its indoctrination program relies on people to get to a certain level which takes time and commitment that some just don't have. Or the indoctrination programme is outdated and does not hook people as effectively as EN would require.

3. The true colours of the ministry are showing through and as people search for authenticity they are put off by the rampant hype and bizzare culture EN creates and engenders.

4. People can't quite understand why EN is so obsessed by apotolicism, making sure it has a multi-ethnic front, leadership and hierachies and other subtexts or unspoken agendas. They look for explainations elsewhere.

5. People are accused of rebellion against God if they query anything with the leadership so fear or a thirst for the truth drives them to look elsewhere?

6. The issue of people leaving and then rejoining and then leaving again points to a deeper failure of the ministry and its discipleship program. Also people come to belive that after EN there is no church anointed enough and that people are missing out on their detinies and God's perfect plan for them.

[dust (dust)]

UlYankee
Peter Wagner spoke at this same conference...could we get a printed copy of this speech. It also made me feel very sick. I couldn't handle his corny jokes, his predictions, and his book selling. This was part of the indoctrination.....and it is hard to believe now, that people actually sit and listen to this stuff. I left that conference so disgusted, so unedified. Experience with God....I felt like I had "sold out" and had moved far from God by being joined up with this group. I KNEW how wrong it was. The crazy thing...there were two workshops that were decent. One was with Rick Shelton. Where is he? I hate to be disappointed to hear something negative about him.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Fast, I believe that when people start questioning certain things is healthy. That means these people are trained to think for themselves. Its biblical. For the Bereans did question Paul and went to the Bible and check if what Paul preach is true. As long as that is open, then the church can stay healthy. But when a pastor became impatient and rather have the people just take his word for it, then its not a healthy church any longer, Its a sign of a cult.

If my children have questions about my decisions, I always have to sit down and explain to them why. And to tell my children to rather shut up and obey, that will hurt them as they grew up. And also hurt our relationship. Even God does not do that. Sometimes He wants us to obey and we do not know why, but later on He always explain why and we see the results.

And I have seen EN leaders children were usually mistreated like that. They were told to shut up and obey, and the same way they treated the people. Thats why I am not surprised that Phil Bonasso first born daughter got into relationship with Tony Fetchel , a married man, with 3 children and a campus minister.

I saw how Phil treated his kids badly a few times as they grow up. Pretty harsh. There are people who was around them and saw how harshly they all were treated by Phil.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Dust, Rick Shelton is not doing well spiritually. It gotten worse when he became part of EN. When EN start courting him,his church was at 4,000 members. Now because of EN , his church has dwindled to 1000 or less, People are still leaving. Rick Shelton was put on sabbatical by Phil Bonasso. It was Phil Bonasso's plan to remove him out of his church. Probably to take over the finances of his church. So he is not going back to his church any longer. Its a sign in EN , anybody who went on sabbatical, never comes back. Rick Shelton I was told is just a travelling minister now. Now, that he lost his church to EN. Even though they have not signed any papers yet. EN is in control of that church. Its the EN people who are preaching there now.

[fast_mph (fast_mph)]

ONCE AGAIN- No-one is arguing with you that there are people in EN that are in error. It's obvious! Over &amp; over you want to make the same point. We get it, you get it, and everyone gets it. You were wronged by people in Every Nation Church. There are still people in EN that are wrong or have error in there understanding of the bible. There are abusers in Vineyard, Willow Creek, Saddleback, Olsteen, Crystal Cathedral, Bickle's church, Joyner’s group, TD Jakes.

Many I know is EN examine the word, study the word, and line up what they are being told with what God's word says. Many I know have strong marriages built on the rock of Christ. Many I know have kids that are strong in character, strong in there identity in Christ. Many are faithful to not just be hearers of the word but doers. Many I know in EN are in love with Jesus Christ, they think about him all the time, they have given there life to him. Many I know care deeply about the lost, the hurting, the broken, the weary, the heavy-burdened. Many I know disciple baby Christians in the foundations of the faith not Manage them, not force them. Discipleship is offered to anyone who wants it. Discipleship is a blessing to most everyone I know because they get one on one bible teaching and understanding. They get to get direction on how to follow Jesus not direction on how to follow the teacher. The people I know in EN are serious about following Jesus not a movement. The people I know desire to build churches where Jesus Christ is is exalted

Finally the people I know make mistakes, say things they have to take back once on a blue moon, they sometimes have faith more than wisdom sometimes, they sometimes speak the truth to people that abuse them, they sometimes get frustrated with people that say one thing and do another. They sin, they repent and turn back to God, they struggle with being a good pastor and a good husband and a good father or mother all at the same time. They struggle with when to love and when to disipline a person whose in continuous sin. They struggle on discerning Gods will at all times in all occasions.


Do you think I should find a church, a movement, a place where there isn't any of these hypocritical problems?

[dust (dust)]

Regarding Rick Shelton, how tragic? BUT then again, maybe this is the best thing that ever happened to him. He may be alone and able to NEED the savior more than he needed Rice. I remember his vulnerability. He felt "alone" as a pastor, and was so excited because Jim Lafoon and Rice Broocks would frequently call him and stroke him, "hey Champ, Superstrong, man of God. He publicly told of these calls and you could see how much he was needing some strong comradeship, how much these phone calls meant to him. He was vulnerable and needing something these men were supplying. Who DOESN"T NEED the LOVE of the BRETHREN. God wired us this way. But, it can never replace or OUTSHINE the need of the Love of GOD.

Now, if what you are saying is true, something went terribly wrong or terribly right. Perhaps Rick Shelton just didn't fit in...couldn't go the party line or his congregation was too mature for it and this may be the best thing he could learn. What's important is Rick's personal relationship with the Lord....and I do hope that this grows stronger. Is he traveling for EN? That throws it a different way? You see, at Bethel, he was exalted and we loved Rick Shelton. He spoke at TWO conferences...and then he's gone. How does a congregation that teaches "relationship" deal with all this? You LOVE people and they are gone! I want to know WHY. I want to hear specifics about why he was put on sabbatical. He preached for decades and then sabbatical. I need answers to this. What did he specifically do that he lost his church? Where did the 3,000 people go? I would like to "hear" from people that went to that church and left or are still there. We should not live in the dark.
EN, why don't you answer this. If you have nothing to be ashamed of, give the reasons for Rick Shelton's departure. Give the reasons his church declined. This means there are 3,000 people who moved out of relationship possibly with each other. This is not right....it is not Godly, not holy.....Be accountable, EN and give your reasons for Rick Shelton's departure. If he was found to be in "sin" then why did you go there? Did you want a big church? Why did you join with him? Did you check him out?
OR, was he not able to get his "flock" to become your flock? Everything that happens on this earth means something......the actions inside this ministry affect people and affect the spiritual realm. Pray....Father, I pray for the Sheltons right now...that they are sealed in you, healed in you, and that redemption will mean something to them and to their flock...all of them.

[dust (dust)]

Fast,
I am sorry you are so frustrated. I was just exactly like you. Yes, all churches have problems because they are faciliated by people, and we all have flesh that still needs to be sanctified. I don't speak to you from a patronizing position, but doing my personal best to be loving to my brethren.
You came to this board for a reason. And, you continue to read these posts. That says you are "seeking" truth as I was.

And, you named a few churches that have problems. God have mercy on us all for this. And, you are right, there are some wonderful outstanding Christians in EN, including pastors. I know; I still have friends there. And yes, strong marriages. And, I believe my marriage is stronger because of EN. I think they have a real good teaching in that area and that is one of their strengths.

How do we live inside the church and keep it honest, accountable and fixed on the gospel of Jesus Christ?

And if you are testing everything against scripture then you are being responsible...you can sit down with those you have come alongside and help them do the same.

And the way you will know if you are in a healthy church...(not perfect, but healthy) IS MAKE AN APPOINTMENT WITH YOUR PASTOR. Take these posts, especially the speech by Jim Lafoon and ask the real meaning of rule. Ask, what is the difference between the missionaries that have gone before to these countries versus the missionary work of EN. Why would the past missionaries be considered only "reaching" the nations, and EN considered something greater, "reaching" and "ruling." Does this mean that EN will reach the entire nation and it is no longer able to be under Satan's rule? These are good questions for you to sit and discuss. Then you will able to answer other people's questions.
Perhaps your pastor can invite Jim Lafoon to come and expound on this speech and do a teaching of it. This would seem to be one way to be free of what is here, to communicate in a holy way with your leaders, to get equipped the way you need to be to help others in your church. When your leaders (and perhaps Jim Lafoon) come to discuss this, you will have learned how to sift the junk from truth.

You have used the word accusation, and that is something done where there is no fact. The posting of Jim Lafoons speech is not accusation, but brings up the right questions. Christians must DEMAND FREEDOM to wrestle scriptures and ideolgies with each other.

I would love to be the first to say I misunderstood that speech, and I jumped to conclusions and I must repent, and you now have full permission to go and get those answers and let me know. We can look at the scriptures together....
It is not my intention to be right; I just want my heart right.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Discipleship is offered to anyone who wants it. THATS A COMPLETE LIE !

DISCIPLESHIP IS NOT OFFERED TO ANYONE WHO WANTS IT. IT IS FORCE UPON THE PEOPLE ! AND MY OWN BEST FRIEND WAS KICK OUT OF THE CHURCH FOR REFUSING DISCIPLESHIP, SHE TOLD THEM THAT SHE IS NOT GROWING UP WITH THE PEOPLE WHO DISCIPLED HER ! ANYBODY WHO REFUSED WILL BE LABELED AS REBELLIOUS AND IN SIN !

SECOND, Granted that NO MINISTRY IS PERFECT , But where can you find a ministry that has EXTORTION, SCAMS , FRAUD, TAX EVASION, TAX LAWS BEING BROKEN AND CHEATED , MONEY LAUDERING , BRIBERY , EMBEZZLEMENT , THREATS ,ADULTERY , ABUSE OF AUTHORITY , CONTROLLING ETC. ? ONLY IN EVERY NATION MINISTRY , !!!

You do not find these problems in Joyner, T.D. Jakes or any ministry !

ANd please JESUS IS NOT EXALTED HERE , you said it yourself that YOu have athletes that drew them to the church.

AND HERE JESUS SAID. LIFT UP THE SON OF MAN AND I WILL DREW THEM UNTO ME .

IT NEVER SAID LIFTED THE ATHLETES AND HE WILL DREW THEM UNTO HIM ! YOU LIFT EN, NOT CHRIST !

WE LIFT JESUS AND HE WILL DRAW PEOPLE TO HIM !

SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURES THAT WE SHOULD LIFT UP THE ATHLETES TO DREW PEOPLE IN !

[fast_mph (fast_mph)]

Let me make something very clear before I continue at all in this dicussion. I'm not in anyway searching these boards and wondering about my decision to be apart of EN. I know it would make your "cause" of this site to seem of value. I'm not swayed in any way by any of your postings to leave what has been the place God calls me. The only way I would leave is if God calls me and I would immediately. Call me an idiot, deceived, whatever you want. I come here because I desire to defend what I beleive is just one-sided wounded people coming together to bash a church without any openness to error.

Dust
Your posting is worthe reading. It's the only different viewpoint that I see that is slightly open to the idea that there are good people in EN. Unfortunatley, Ginger I cannot say that about you, it's obvious you got NOTHING from being apart of EN that was of any value. I'm very sorry to hear that.

I come to this website about 1 x a month just to see what the fuss is now. I am on other boards regarding dicussions on church growth, seeker model, Signs &amp; wonders, Post-modernism. I like to disuss, debate, an learn.

[formermaranathapastor (formermaranathapastor)]

God to Fast:

GET OUT NOW!!!!!!

[dust (dust)]

Fast
I, too, like to discuss, debate and learn....and I also am a teacher. I want to bring some "hope" to this board because that is what will glorify God.

And, I am the first to admit that I had to repent and take responsibility for my own carnal ways....i.e. self-ambition, needing approval. And, God has so gently corrected me to look to Him, to be humble. And, I see anger flare that I do not like in myself. The Word says to walk in forgiveness, lest we be tempted to sin, (anger/hatred, etc.)

So, if we can take the emotion out (I see how much you love your people and your leaders) and we can look at some theology, while seeking our teaching from the Holy Spirit, we can work together and should arrive at the same place.

I will be the first to praise many things of EN. I am a different person because of EN. And, truthfully, I actually learned from EN how to leave EN. I learned from Rice Broocks how to stand in truth, how to be bold, how to "stand against what seems popular." He is excellent in these impartations.... If I were coming here in anger, I would have come onto this board 18 months ago.

I STILL have friends in EN, and I am friends with pastors in EN. I will not throw an entire people away. I don't think it is so much individuals as something that has happened when certain types of personalities all came together.

However, after a long silence of reading this board, I have come forward because I am sure (through my own debates, study) that there is something (some theology that has gone down an unchristian road) that needs corrected. I want to believe that this can be rooted out and repented of. I believe in my heart that each individual person/pastor/leader wants to represent the full, true gospel. However, the "grouping" of certain individuals isn't working. . This is the road to freedom.......

So, before your hurt (this board can hurt too) escalates, look for the reason God sent you here....look for the reason God has given you information that is painful, and people who need you to help them in your church. Be strong and courageous in asking questions. I admire your fight and I can see why EN appealed to you as it did me. I live with passion for Christ and I see you do too. That is not over, my friend. God wants this passion from you......seek, pray, and I'll pray with you.....

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Fast, I agree. I got nothing out of EN, in fact I wasted 10 years of my life in EN. But the first 7 years, my pastor was Steve Murrell. He at least put a good foundation in my life. After that, in 10 years with Phil Bonasso, its a waste of my life and time.

What I am glad is that Steve Murrell himself start to see the bad and evil things in EN and his eyes is WIDE OPEN. He does not make any excuses like you do.

Steve Murrell has even a name for this CONTROLLING EN. He calls it a monster that he thought is dead but is alive and well .

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Dust, In regards to Rick Shelton, he is travelling within EN from one church to another. EN completely removed Rick Shelton to take over the finances of his church. Rick Shelton's church donates $400,000 a year to EN. Which most of the money was misuse. Anyway, back then that was 4000 people. Since the church has dwindled ever since EN has put their hands on that church, now to a 1000 people I do not know how much money is going to EN now.

You also have to understand, Joyce Meyer is a public figure that EN is after. Joyce Meyer's pastor is Rick Shleton. Anyway, Rick Shelton church , what I gather is falling apart. Spiritually and the building is in much needed repairs. I highly doubt that EN will return the money to rebuild the building. And since the church has dwindled so much, it might as well close it soon.
People I heard are still leaving left and right. Jim Lafoon goes there and preach most of the time and still people leave. He(Jim Lafoon) is not as anointed as he used to be. it was already prophesied by one of the top apostle Cartledge last year in hawaii. Jim lafoon was already given a warning by Apostle Cartledge. IN FRONT OF 3,000 people in hawaii. EN people were there also to witness it.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Dust , also to add , EN is searching for well known ministry that they can take over. Thats what Happened in Bethel, that church actually belong to Ray Maccollum. Not Rice Brookes. Rice Brookes slowly removed the board of directors and replaced them with his people one by one till Ray Maccolum left. Thats when Ray has to give his church to Rice.

Same thing with Rick Shelton. There is a pastor also in Las Vegas, same thing happened to him.

Rice Brookes goes as far as south america and africa to do the same thing. Rice Brookes lost in South America , when the pastor over there rejected Rice Brookes offer. But Rice Brookes did got the largest church in Africa and removed Paul Daniel. Though Paul Daniel has commited adultery instead of replacing a co pastor, Rice BRookes put his people in.

There are several pastors who lost their church to EN. And was told they are on sabbatical.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

First off it sound like Rick Shelton might be dependent on EN. I wonder if he feels betrayed or is just fine with what has happened.

Dust, going to the upper leaders and asking what rule means? They will lie and that is such an easy lie to tell (it means love and serve like a missionary then what do you say?), you have to read what Rushdooney, the modern Christian reconstructionists, Earl Paulk, Cronquist...etc. and what the others who layed this foundation say about the subject of what rule means before Christ comes back and what their opinion is on unconditional submission to modern day apostles and what that means. It sounds like papal infallibility to me. EN obviously believes the man-child doctrine.

To fast_mph you acted like you had a dilema about hanging around and then turned around and acted like you had no dilema at all and that EN is the place for you, that was a little confusing. Sure every church has problems but??? My theory on the MCM/MSI/EN thing is that you will find an extremly high percentage of sincere, kind christians there who really do love God. You will also find a very high percentage of men who behave very heavy handedly and act in unGodly ways in the name of Christ and they get away with it because they hide behind the cloak of God. So much good is why people want to stay and so much bad is why they want to leave all at the same time, that is part of the torment along with missing out on your destiny. The system allows the pain to continue. Like Dust says this machine traps new believers and older leaders alike. Waiting for reform or working on reform from the bottom up won't work. You need to work from the top down. It sounds like Steve M. and EN leaders from outside the maranatha stream is the only hope of bringing true reform in my opinion or perhaps the Lord just needs to pull the plug on this thing. If you go the reform route you do need some people who have been around for decades who will not allow the old maranatha/msi pretend reforms and doublespeak to continue.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

HERE IS EN type of so called that God is moving in the church/ministry.

1. Sing charismatic songs.
2. Prophesy controlled by man.
3. Speaking in tongues. Controlled by man.

Here is what lacking.
1. Almost all the entire gifts of the Holy Spirit. That includes, gift of wisdom, gift of knowledge, miracles, signs and wonders, interpretation of tongues, interpretation of dreams, helps,gift of faith, gift of healing etc.
2. No miracle.
3. No Answered prayers among the top leaders.
4. NO current testimonies that God is moving in their lives. All testimonies are based 20 - 30 years ago.

And they say that God is moving just because they have those 3 thats pathetic.

2 Corinthian 12
12The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance.

PAUL Clearly said that a MARK or a SIGN OF AN APOSTLE HAVE SIGNS, WONDERS AND MIRACLES. When did Rice and Phil Bonasso ever perform signs and wonders ? Thats what the bible say, we do not lower GOD'S Standard.

by the way, I do agree that NOT all people that shows signs and wonders is from God. In fact , John the Baptist never showed signs and wonders and is from God.

However GOD's Standard of an Apostle is having performing signs and wonders thats clearly in the Word of God.
Jim Lafoon declared that Rice and Phil are Apostles in EN.
Its clear that those two are false apostles according to biblical standard. ANd for Jim lafoon to declare that, then I would start to question his anointing, discernment and authority in the Lord.
Be clear also Jim Lafoon is the one who discipled Tony Fetchel personally.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

40/40, I am waiting for Steve Murrell to leave EN in disgust of its sin. And I do believe he will.
EN will never change, they have been doing this for almost 30 years.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

ginger you said: You also have to understand, Joyce Meyer is a public figure that EN is after. Joyce Meyer's pastor is Rick Shleton.

Ginger from a common sense point of view that would be crazy for EN. Would'nt they be dealing with a hospital ministry kind of, a lot of high maintenance people there? I mean EN values its public image and they do the best to put spin control on things with PR and hide if they want. Like you said their image and PR are the most important things behind wealth and power. Rice and company would have to be dealing with the press 24/7 if they were involved with Joyce Meyer and they could not hide from the media. It would be like letting 1500 cats lose in the church and trying to herd them.

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi All, Small two cents from me recovering from an another group of national
tests, I hope this floats. I saw Joyce in summer of 2003 around July 4th, on her show with a group Marananthires talking about American history and our right to rule set-up. God bless her, she looked like that old rock and roll song about the one eyed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.}

(Message edited by coppertree on December 09, 2005)

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Ooooooohhhh! don't do that copper. That is a sore spot for me how Maranatha tried to appropriate American history for their own PR agenda, how hypocritical. I would have loved if they had appropriated concepts from the revolution like freedom, justice, liberty.

Elections, town hall meetings where everyone had a say and the wonderful idea of standing up to tyranny and not submitting to it in mind, body and spirit would have also been novel ideas we could of pondered on besides just acknowledging that God performed countless miracles in the creation of America.

[dust (dust)]

Fast: You posted that "I desire to defend what I beleive is just one-sided wounded people coming together to bash a church without any openness to error." The bible not only allows for but requires error to be dealt with. Error that cannot be approached or corrected turns into more error and eventually heresy as the generations go. Sin that is covered up......well, read what Pastor Ray McCollum has to say. He is the senior pastor at an EN church, a VLI teacher and known for his great teaching. He should have some credibility with you as he is in EN.

Pastor Ray McCollum in his most recent newsletter talked about the importance of exposing and publicly rebuking sin of leaders. Here is a copy of what Pastor Ray wrote and it copied exactly. I can get a copy forwarded to you if necessary.

Lying To God
By Ray McCollum

"You have not lied unto men, but unto God..."
Acts 5:4

For many years I have struggled to understand the implications of the story of Ananias and Sapphira.

In the midst of great revival, the early Church was sharing all their earthly goods and there was no poverty among them. Some were selling property and possessions so the proceeds could be distributed to the poor. But Annanias and Sapphira sold a parcel of land and gave a portion of the income to the Church. The trouble was that they presented a portion of the money as if it were the whole. You can read the entire episode in Acts 4:1-11, but the bottom line is that, in their turn, God struck them both dead, right in the midst of a church service!

It seemed to me that this dramatic judgment seems to be so out of line with the incredible grace and mercy God had been pouring out on the New Testament church since the Day of Pentecost, only three chapters earlier. How could this dreadful act of God be consistent with the Gospel of grace so bountifully revealed in Christ? What is it about what they did that made God so angry? If God treated these hypocrites so harshly, what would happen if He decided to make a habit of it?
There are at least four lessons here that we ought to learn:

1. Lying to God is worse than lying to men, but the two are intimately connected within the Church.

2. God hates hypocrisy, when we use our religion to deceive others into thinking we're more spiritual than we really are.

3. God's grace and mercy in the Gospel do not protect us from His righteous (public) judgment should we intentionally choose to commit sin and practice deception.

4. Finally, I believe God included this terrible story as an example of how much He hates religious deception and evil practices and how He will send judgment into the church to restore the "fear of the Lord" to His house.

"And great fear came upon the whole church
And upon all who heard of these things."
Acts 5:11

God is telling us that while grace and mercy are the cornerstones of the Gospel of Christ, New Testament believers will occasionally be publicly judged, so that the "fear of the Lord" may be experienced by all. Lying to God is a sin worthy of death.

Leaders are especially responsible for blameless behavior. And while they ought to be respected and protected from idle gossip and speculation, Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Evangelists and Teachers are not above public rebuke and exposure if they have intentionally sinned.

"Against an elder receive not an accusation , but before two or three witnesses.
"Them (the elders) that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear."
1 Timothy 5:19-20 KJV

Sometimes, church members are warned about "touching God's anointed", and cautioned about being careful as to how they speak about their spiritual leaders. Paul affirms this. He basically says, "Don't listen to accusations against your leaders unless they are thoroughly documented". But then he goes on to say that if the elder has sinned, he is to be publicly rebuked. As in Acts 5, the purpose is to instill a holy, healthy "fear of the Lord" within the Church.

No Leader is perfect. All Leaders sin occasionally, losing their temper, making an unkind remark or committing gossip. But there are disqualifying sins. When we attempt to "cover" serious sins committed by spiritual leaders in the name of love and mercy, we inevitably place ourselves in a position of having to lie to the people we're leading. The "cover" becomes a "cover up". "Covering" a brother in a fault is one thing. But "covering up" his serious sins is another. When you're "covering up", you find yourself lying to people about the situation and calling it "mercy". You tell a "part" of the truth and you call it the "whole". This not only betrays the trust of the people you're leading, it usually means you've somehow lied to God to give yourself an excuse for what you're doing!

When it comes to lying to God and the fear of the Lord, we should be afraid of not being afraid.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.."
Proverbs 1:7

ALL OF THE ABOVE IS DIRECTLY FROM THE NEWSLETTER. I hope it was okay that I copied this. It was an email newsletter.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

40/40, Joyce Meyer does not have a church, she is a travelling minister. So there is nothing to take over. What EN is after is Joyce Meyer's money. Remember that all EN churches are required to give 10% of their tithes to the top leaders. Its written in their own bylaws. SO you can imagine 10% of Joyce Meyer Ministry of $100 million. Thats huge. EN has no plan of taking over Joyce Meyer's ministry, just the money.

I do know that EN leaders, have been bribing churches and ministries to join EN. The ones who did not accept the birbery , are the ones who are talking. Thats where I got all those info http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

But those ministries that have been bribed, I would not know which one. Just the ones who rejected the offer.

ANother church/ministry that EN has stolen from is Greg Ball. Greg Ball left EN. I have posted it here months before EN found out that he left.
Then when EN found out that Greg Ball left, EN lied to its members that Greg Ballleft with thier blessings . BUT the most recent "communique" that came out from EN, is that Greg Ball just left with no goodbye, and have problems with communicating with EN top leaders.

EN is known to lie all the time. If you have time read the Communique, as you can see, they themselves tried to sugar coat the finances too, when the truth of it all, basically, they could not even get a clean sheet of audit. It was that bad. The whole communique is just sugar coating what truly is.

The communique also prove that what I have posting here are ALL TRUTH.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Thanks Ginger on your insight, especially about 2 Cor:12. You were in Maranatha do you remember Nick Pappis? His services and his tapes seemed very annointed like reading a book from Smith Wigglesworth. I do think you can go to a non charismatic church that is blessed though. I remember reading books by Luis Palau and feeling the annointing. Rice seems to tell lots of stories when he preaches it reminds me of hearing a convention speaker (name any convention) telling interesting stories.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense what you said about Joyce Meyer. Hey Greg Ball left like most of us here it seems, just snuck offhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifThe Lord set him free even though he did not want that.

Did you say earlier if you have a big church they might buy you a big house to join EN or give you a big salary? It would make sense though if you thought like the world to swallow up a church and then bring in mandatory tithing and gift offerings. That is so bad Ginger if true.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Ginger where do I read the communique? do you have a link for us? ---- thanks

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi 40/40, You got my point well about Mararnathites, by ex I meant that Maranatha no longer exists. I will fix that. Yes, we knew about Peter Marshall and that got the ball rolling in Maranatha, soon we were reading those books from Ca. about the consitution. But we never got to practice those town meetings, as you so talked about. I wish we did.}

[ontheroad (ontheroad)]

Can someone explain why Maranatha placed such an emphasis on American History in relation so their perceived destiny or purpose? I remember it being emphasized, but never did understand why.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

40/40 here is the link , its on top of the part 11.
Ulyankee posted it.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/15454.html?1134158209

I remember Nick Papis. I remember a lot of people who are anointed during the maranatha days. Some are pretending to be anointed but you can tell the difference. LOL !

Yea, Ron Lewis offered several chinese minister, big salary, house, private schooling for their kids etc. Ron lewis got rejected twice.

Anyway, this is how I got the info, it started with Rice Brookes, Offering(bribing) $10,000 to a south american minister who has the largest church in that country to join EN. Well the minister consulted Edwin Cole and Ed Cole ask, did he offer you money ? he said yes, did he offer you a position in the ministry ? he said yes. Then Ed Cole said it sounded like the devil to me . So the south american minister went back to Rice Brookes and rejected the offer.

So with that info, knowing Ron Lewis has the China Strategic initiative, I went to the most famous chinese minister, the one who wrote the heavenly Man. Guess what ? I WAS RIGHT LOL ! EN Offerred him too , not just him but a few other s LOL ! a house, salary, private schooling, anyway, he got turned down immedietly. Ron lewis finally got one chinese minister who has 12 million members to accept his offer, on his way here to america, he got caught and currently is sitting in jail. In china.

THIS IS WHAT EN IS BRAGGING ABOUT THAT THEY ARE GETTING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE SAVED BY BRIBING MINISTERS TO JOIN EN THEN TURN AROUND CLAIMING THAT THEY DID IT.
Rice Brookes and Phil Bonasso DID EXACTLY the same thing to the philippines. When the filipino missionaries went overseas to preach the gospel, BOTH of these false apostle turn around and claim they are the ones did it, PLUS they claim they have been sending money to these missionaries thru WORLD PARTNER. WHEN MOST OF THE MONEY THAT WAS RECEIVED FOR WORLD PARTNER WENT STRAIGHT TO THEIR POCKETS. READ THE COMMUNIQUE.
World Partner was not even mentioned LOL ! Thats how bad it is.


Anyway read the communique about the finances, check how they sugar coated it , when the bottom line it really means they cannot get a CLEAN AUDIT. IT IS SO BAD !

[40days40years (40days40years)]

ontheroad there is the concept of manifest destiny which would fit in good with Maranatha's "divine" destiny to reach the world for Jesus. I personally think that the emphasis on America fighting for liberty and freedom of religioun was just good PR and that is all it was, it made leadership feel good and nothing is more patriotic than appropriating the image of a minute man. We certainly did not appropriate the concepts of the American revolution into Maranantha. Roll back the clock over 200 years ago Bob W. and company would be working for the crown locking up those pesky freedom seekers into the stocks. Our job would have been to trust the king, pay our taxes and submit to him. I got in disagreements with others over this I said that according to Maranatha theology (taxation with or without representation was irrelevant, the king would be our represenative) you could not justify the American revolution. Let's face it your job would be to submit to the king which God put over you, trust him, forgive him, serve him, pray for him, give him the benefit of the doubt. I guess if the king had told you to worship satan you could rebel then but that was'nt going to happen. JMHO http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/angry.gif

Coppertree I remember that book "The Light and the Glory" (a good book), original Webster dictionaries. Did that course on the constitution have a big multi masted sailing ship on it?

(Message edited by 40days40years on December 10, 2005)

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Thank you so much for the link Ginger. To all EN leaders, hey this is America!! Any EN leaders want to post a repudiation to what Ginger has said? Those are serious charges I would want to respond if I was innocent. Come on guys the water is warm and we are semi gentle.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Actually, I <u>didn't</u> post the communique... just to give credit where credit is due.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Aren't among EN's values that churches come into EN through "birth, not adoption" (so church planting, not church takeover)?

Obviously people would be seriously hurt if one revealed confidences and identities in anything having to do with the Chinese church, but I was also able to verify the information Ginger posted about the Heavenly Man through a reliable source. At one time it was announced in at least some churches that he was part of EN, but he is not. I find it interesting that when EN courts a church or leader, they seem to consider the marriage complete - that the covenant is made at the courtship stage, not merely the marriage stage.

blessings,
ulyankee

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Ginger, your post about World Partners made me think of an article (http://www.stevemurrell.com/content/view/40/0/) on Steve M.'s site that I read a couple weeks ago...

And how can they be sent unless someone gives? And how can they buy plane tickets unless churches take up mission offerings? How can they be supported unless pastors make missionaries a priority in their local church budgets?

All over the world, thousands have responded to the Great Commission by saying: "Here I am, send me." It is time for thousands of pastors and ministry leaders to respond by saying: "Here’s some money, we’ll send you!"

I felt really bad because I gave to World Partners (http://churches.everynation.org/default_churches.asp?nc=6573&amp;id=353) thinking that this is where it really was going. I thought that it really was saying, "Here's some money, we'll send you!" At least that's what the World Partners Sunday presentation led me to believe... It made me wonder, how could the World Partners contributions raised by the US-based churches NOT be going to missionaries abroad, and why is the Filipino/Asian EN church, which seems to do much of the missionary work for EN, having to ask for money that they should also be getting through World Partners?

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

coppertree and 40/40 - the concepts (http://www.kycouncilofchurches.org/Packet/Kemper_Christian_Nation.html) of America as a Christian nation as as well as EN's version of covenant theology come from Christian Reconstruction(ism) (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/r10.html). I've said this before so I apologize for repeating myself, but my current hypothesis is that EN's most predominant "working" theology is a synthesis of Christian Reconstruction (radical Reformed &amp; Puritan) and resurgent Latter Rain/Kingdom Now (radical Pietism). Rice Broocks has said that his vision for EN is to have the fire of Pentecost burning in the fireplace of evangelical Christianity (rough paraphrase, sry). But I've seen a fair amount of evidence that the fire is largely Latter Rain-influenced fire and the fireplace is largely Christian Reconstructionist.

I've heard that EN may be including a systematic theology class in the newly revised ENLI. That should be very interesting to see if and how these streams can come together in a systematic theology. My take is that other than the eschatological goal (http://www.equip.org/free/DR125.htm), there are several contradictions between the various sources of EN's working theology that it is problematic at best... and that's not even getting into the areas that I think may cross the bounds of Biblical orthodoxy. Perhaps whoever comes up with this systematic theology course (assuming it's fairly comprehensive) may figure this out in the process...?

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Does anybody know whats going to Happen to World Partner since it was not mentioned in the communique ? I wonder if EN leaders will try to drop it off quietly since now they found out that most of the money WENT STRAIGHT TO THEIR POCKETS, during Phil Bonasso handling of the Finances. Plus now since they are definitely going to have an independent audit. The independent Auditor will know what happened to the World partner's money. And I am pretty sure EN leaders do not want that.

Or will they continue to scam people. if they do, hopefully the independent auditor will call the IRS.

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica">
Hi All, Thank you ul for stating your hypothesis on this group. From being on the inside with an ear to others on the inside watching the current history, I would agree. You have said it well.
40/40, About the books, I remember 3 books, one being the 1828 Webster dictionary, and the other two were a study on the Constitution, and a handbook of sorts on the much larger text. This came from two women in Ca. </font>}

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

copper,

I recieved a booklet of prophecies that circulated in Maranatha prior to the 1982-84 Ad Hoc Investigation. I believe this booklet is important since it includes prophetic declarations from the well-known apostate MSOG adept Bill Britton (http://www.kingdomlife.com/kingdom/BILLBRITTON.htm). Do you recognize the following title:
******************************************
PERTINENT PROPHECIES NO.7

This edition, like the other six editions of Pertinent Prophecies, is made up of a variety of prophetic utterances, and other supernatural communications from the Holy Ghost such as dreams, visions, etc. They come through people in various parts of the country who, in most cases, have no contact with one another. We present them to you in this convenient form for your edification and spiritual growth. All titles are added.

If you wish copies of the other six previous issues (or back issues of Lamps Unto His Feet Nos. 1-41, which is our other publication) let us hear.

Dorothea M. Gardner, Editor
****************************************
The dates in some of these false prophecies date back to the middle 1970's. You are familiar with many books and literature that circulated in early Maranatha and that is the reason I am asking you.

--Bill

(Message edited by Bill_Mack on December 10, 2005)

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Ulyankee I would agree with your assesment of their endtime theology. I would guess its 45% Reconstructionism/post millenium, 45% Kingdom Now/MSOG and 10% standard pre mil endtime theology. 3 differant systems operating on differant time lines with radically different interpretations of scripture. One ugly mess. It is like trying to put a jalopy together from parts that came from 3 differant car companies.

I have been thinking about how nonsensical this whole thing is.
With reconstructionism like you find at the forerunner site you see that revelations is old news and was mostly completed 2000 years ago when Jerusalem was sacked, Antichrist came and went and satan was bound around the first century. I thought after satan was bound though Jesus would immedeatly rule after he seperated the sheep and the goats? During that time everybody knows the Lord and men don't learn war any more.

Then when you look at Kingdom now they appropriate the scriptures referring to Israel to themselves and walk as godmen as manifested sons of God/ the man child/144,000. Now these folks don't believe in a rapture either but they believe they are transformed into immortal beings. Problem is that when these manifest sons of God are revealed during the tribulation nature will be half dead. I thought romans 8:19 states that creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God, creation is released from futility not exposed to more futility and judgement from God. Time trouble there, obviously nature/creation is released from its futility when Christ returns with the saints in resurrected bodies. Then the good times roll for creation not before. The NOLR also seem to forget that before the living receive a resurrected body the dead in Christ receive one first and those glorified saints are suppose to return with Jesus and the angels in the clouds. Messy, messy contadicting theology I am sure satan can work something out though.

Then I remember Bob Weiner appropriating a little pre-mil theology here and there. Like saying when the olive shoot sprouts which which is symbolic of the creation of modern Israel, that generation that see's the creation of Israel will not pass away before the return of the Lord. Problem is the other 2 endtime theologies discount the importance of Israel altogether.
What a tangle web they weave but yeah I agree with the link you provided, there is a definate combining of reconstructionism with kingdom now.

[livingwaterman (livingwaterman)]

Fast

Several posts back you asked "should I find a church without hypocracy?" Fast I think both you and I both know that Church does not exist. You are facing a deliema I had back in 2001. I know very well that there are legimate ministers within EN. Unlike some on this board I do not see EN as a repackaged Maranatha at least at my old Church. However they had ties back to it and when in doubt would often reach back to the old ways. In the 1980's I viewed Maranatha as an abusive Church but did visit it from time to time out of curosity because they were on the campus I was attending. After they imploded in the early 1990's the Church that was once Maranatha reformed and associated itself with a healthy set of Churches. It was at that time that I decided to join them because I liked the Pastor so much and respected his teaching so much. However after several years they decided to become a MSI and now an EN church. I got to meet many of the leaders and I even visted a couple of the LA churhes and what I saw was appalling. When asking my local leadership (which I was part of by that time) about my concerns I kept hearing you need to understand their heart (i.e. they did not mean it). However when people keep saying heritical or abusive things over and over and these people are trained and experienced speakers that explanation does not work. Fast at one point you actually said that same phrase regarding Lafoons sermon as an excuse for his error.

On balance you have to ask the question is there enough good enough hope enough anticipation of change and reform to stay? I saw how they courted and took over churhes and even wooed leaders in Churhes to split and dared call it Church growth. I saw hype filled serivces that they dared call spiritual. I saw maniputlation and control that they dared call ministry. I had to look at this and say to myself do I really want my sons and daughters to grow up into this? Would I really advise my son someday to go the graduate school of campus ministry? If I would not then what business did I have training people in what is now called ENLI and was then called VLI. What business did I have recommending people to go down there. What business did I have having a tithe of my tithe go to this unworthy cause. Even though much of the abuse did not really reach or affect my local Church except on limited occasions my conscience would not allow me to continue.

While we did take some shots from certain people I really did not feel "hurt." I know many here were legimately hurt and after observing the LA church I can only imagine. All I can ask is this movement really worth supporting with your time treasure and talent? Are you called to stay in and be an agent of Change or are you being called out? A hard decision but remember the Body of Christ is huge and many parts are in no way inferior to EN. May you find your way.

May you be blessed and a blessing

LWM

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Do you all remember how the teaching of the rapture especially the pre-trib rapture was continually mocked by Maranatha/MSI/ENC leaders on a regular basis? What a joke.

Well I am glad Bills link to Bill Britton is there because in that site is a link entitled "A closer look at the rapture" this reminds me of a very controversial topic in MCM/MSI/ENC. What is that topic you might ask? It is the rapture or perhaps I should say the denial of the rapture. Whenever the rapture was brought up Bill Brittons explanation was used to attack it and falsly say it was heresy based on a vision that a scottish woman named Margaret Mac Donald had around 1830. The story goes that one John Darby picked it up from there and then it was adopted by the Schofield Bible. Britton claims the teaching came from Margaret MacDonald. NOT TRUE! http://www.raptureme.com/rap26.html It appears there is documentation showing the teaching goes back to the 2'nd century and bets were lost for a lot of money more than once when people were challenged to show the rapture existed in scripture long before the Margaret MacDonald vision. Differant publications were produced showing the teaching of a pre-millenial rapture were around LONG before Margaret MacDonald. Here is another link http://www.biblicist.org/bible/pretrib.shtml I found a bunch more.

In fact John Darby believed in the rapture before Margaret MacDonald had her vision. He said that when he started to diligently make distinctions between the church and the nation Israel in scripture the teaching of the rapture jumped off the pages of the bible when he did this. Remember John Darby lived at a time when there was no Israel! He lived at a time when men believed Israel was the church in the book of revelations because there was no Israel in physical existence. There is and Israel now though and the world hates it just like the world in the book of revelation. The fact is that there is an Israel and it's existence makes most older interpretations of revelations and especially the MCM/MSI/EN interpratation nebulous and highly suspect. In fact the NOLR version tells you not to worry about the antichrist and his mark (denies him outright or said he was Nero of the past) and preaches of christians overcoming and ruling like Christ and taking over the world system completly til Jesus Christ returns, this is in conflict with scripture which shows martyrdom is the fate of most christians during the time of the tribulation in Revelations ofcourse NOLR adherants who don't believe in the rapture will say they are part of the 144k or manifests sons of God who attain fantastic powers. Also in regards to bible prophecy the down playing or the out right denial of the importance of the nation of Israel by both the Kindom Now crowd and the Restorationist/Dominionists and their appropriating scriptures/promises for themselves at Israels expense is troubling. Most traditional iterpretations of scripture view the great tribulation starting when Israel makes a covenent of death with the antichrist who will most likely come from a revived roman empire (probablly the EU which is like the iron and clay feet of the statue depicting the great world kingdoms that ruled and will rule before Christ takes control. The iron of the past Roman roots of the EUC and the clay of its present lose political configuration make it a good candidate for the beasts kingdom).

Get this Britton and company then turn around and accuse the conservative evangelicals/fundamentalists/pentecostals of adhering to heretical teachings which need to be fought. This is coming from the NOLR/MSOG crowd who have no problem with having a host of incredibly bizarre beliefs a thousand times more controversial than 1 Thess 4:16-17 (I'll get back to this troubling situation later)These people are accusing traditional christianity of heresy in regards to the rapture, the absolute nerve of these little planet creating gods!! This crowd then goes on to say that if there is a rapture the wicked will be taken! I guess if the critics on this board are gone one day they will say the stumbling blocks were removed and that would be funny because there are some newagers who believe the same thing. When I was in Maranatha I believed in the rapture of the righteous with my pentecostal friend there because of scripture. About the only thing I agree with Maranatha/MSI/EN in regards to the rapture is that someone might find themselves in a dire situation and be relying on the rapture to save them and when it did'nt happent their faith could be shaken.




(Message edited by 40days40years on December 11, 2005)

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

40days40years,

One of the ways I've seen this addressed first hand in EN is that when one has questions about their eschatology, one is told that eschatology is a non-essential of the faith and isn't reason to "leave spiritual family." In fact, this was stated even if leaving wasn't raised as an option at all... just if questions are asked.

Technically, this is true, if one is discussing the differences between pre-trib &amp; post-trib, and pre-mil, post-mil &amp; a-mil - the standard positions that are outlined in most systematic theology courses. However, it is possible to hold an eschatological position which is not supported at all by Scripture and as such is not considered orthodox. Some of these positions, and I believe that Kingdom Now, Latter Rain and Manifest Sons of God positions are among them, also reveal issues with other areas of the Christian faith which ARE essential, like the uniqueness and full divinity &amp; full humanity of Jesus Christ, the sovereignity of God, salvation by faith alone through grace alone (not works), the sufficiency of Christ's work on the cross as full atonement for sins, things like that.

I have to say that for me personally, discovering what EN's predominant eschatology really was woke me up that perhaps there were some significant areas in which I didn't and couldn't agree with EN... which opened the door for me to see past eschatology into some of these more essential areas. So I didn't break fellowship with EN over eschatology, nor did I leave because my "feelings were hurt."

Jim Laffoon states "in my theology" in his World Conference talk, and I've heard similar things before from other EN leaders... but it ceases being just "my theology" when the agenda of the movement is based upon that and that's where you are leading everyone whether they agree with "your theology" or not or even are aware what "your theology" really is.

One thing I did before I left that was extremely helpful was to make a chart of things I believed and contrasted them with EN's positions. This wasn't just so I could test EN's positions against Scripture but as much to test MY positions to make sure that I was on solid ground... like the Bereans, who *eagerly* searched the Scriptures to see if what Paul said about Jesus was true. I have to say that this helped me ensure and articulate the foundations of my faith in Jesus Christ much more than completing the Purple Book did.

blessings,
ulyankee

[dust (dust)]

ulyankee,
Thank you so much for saying and I quote,

"One thing I did before I left that was extremely helpful was to make a chart of things I believed and contrasted them with EN's positions. This wasn't just so I could test EN's positions against Scripture but as much to test MY positions to make sure that I was on solid ground."

Your posts are a blessing. This is a very balanced position and with such an important topic (your eternal life, your view of your creator), we should all do this. I did the same thing...because
(1) they do not teach the bible at EN. They teach a survey of the bible in ENLI, and they teach selected scriptures in their cell groups.

There is no real, thorough bible teaching. There is an area that SHOULD BE OF MAJOR CONCERN in this ministry and should be questioned.

It appears that the Purple book has replaced the bible. Young Christians who do not understand the weight of the bible....start to rely on the PB AS the bible. But, the Purple Book doesn't give the whole picture..... The bible must be understood in its entirety. There is a reason why it is so large, and has all the books it contains. It can't be condensed. The bible interprets itself. The sad thing in EN is that they are raising a biblically illiterate people. The bible is (cleverly, subtly) banned in the discipleship process, because you can't teach the WHOLE BIBLE. You are only allowed to teach SELECTIVE passages.

The ministry team has been under the law in this sense: uniform, restricted teaching only allowed from their published books. For at least two years that I was there ONLY the Purple Book could be taught, and nothing ADDED additionally to bring more light. It was said in the meetings that if you ADD anything, if you bring any of your "own thing" to your teaching (like a deeper understanding of the bible from the bible) you would be SHUT DOWN. Now, as if this wasn't controlled enough, they went to smaller, ENP published books that had even less bible in them, all in all-out recruiting effort to grow the church. This was problmatic because there was not plan to GROW THE PEOPLE past these little books.

They explain this away by saying that this is an easy way to bring NEW/UNCHURCHED people in and not intimidate them with the bible. That would nearly be acceptable, if after six months of feeding milk, they had a plan to give them real food. But, what you see in this ministry is babies feeding babies just baby food for years. They don't have the biblical background to question anything or to know when something is in serious error, or a different gospel.

Catholics do the SAME thing. They have little catechism books and decide WHAT they will learn from the bible, and NO NEED FOR A BIBLE. They are taught NOT to venture into anything they don't put their "nihil obstat" or "imprimatur" on it. (The bishop approves of a writing, book, etc) and it means, "nothing stands in the way" and "it may be printed." A catholic is then assured that they are not reading something that doesn't line up with the Catholic approved canons. A tremendous problem in catholicism is a large group of people that don't know any bible because they've been duped into thinking they can follow their priest and not have to know scripture for themselves.

There is not much difference with EN having their own published teaching books COUPLED with an edict of not being allowed to learn in a group setting or teach in a group setting from any other books, even well-respected biblical teaching books such as precepts books.

So unfortunately, the saints are not only ill-equipped in true, full, biblical foundations, they are often forbidden from deeper study. It is the CONTROLLED study that is the problem here...

I'm not saying the Purple book is evil or their publications are evil. I'm saying that it is unbiblical to craftily censure teaching with STRICT RULES about how and what you can teach and learn and especially, when there is a command that this is the ONLY WAY, not just one way. All Christians should be FREE to learn in deep waters.....

We should be seekers of TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH.........and when that freedom is cut short by men and their idea of what to EXTRACT from the bible as "sanctioned teaching" that is not the truth, and they are not GOD that we should look to them, for we have GOD to look to, and we have HIS word to look to....and therein, lies the methods that a twisted, different gospel can be born.


Dust

[dust (dust)]

I just remembered a few more things taught in the "new way" to do cell groups a few years back, (using only the "little discipleship books).

1. We were taught NOT to bring a bible as a leader, so we wouldn't intimidate anyone and appear religious. How perverse...not being allowed to bring a bible is RELIGIOUS.

2. Not ALLOWED to mention events at other churches or paraministry events (Joyce Meyer, Billy Graham, etc). inside our cell groups..

3. Not allowed to help anyone in our cell groups financially....which I did and I knew I was being rebellious doing so, but it was what I was called to do. Isn't this what the early church did. As they met in homes, they prayed and they asked who was of need, and people shared and met those needs. We did these things as we could and as we were called. It's the beautiful part of being a Christian.......help those God puts in front of you....

The thinking here is that people would "know" and "use" the groups. Okay this can happen, but doesn't God give us wisdom and once we are in "relationship" with each other, we would know hearts and how to help each other. To watch someone in need, when my pockets are full is sin.......this is the duping of the infallible authority of men.....

Jesus said take care of the poor. I would rather be ripped off a time or two than live cynical, holding onto my money and only trust the men in the church to give my money away (which can make one a lot MORE cynical).......How lovely to fill a need of a single mom or a widow or a family directly than make them go beg the church of which they will jump through degrading hoops to get help. Okay, yipes, I'm getting worked up!

[fast_mph (fast_mph)]

Dust-

If you were taught NOT to bring a bible to an outreach group then I disagree with that. I do agree that you have to approach different cultures in different ways using wisdom. I want to get to know someone in a relationship first, then invite them to an outreach group where we teach from the bible and use the 4-12 books. I was taught its best to just be upfront with people of what they are coming to. I like using the 4-12 books in the outreach my wife &amp; I lead because we have an easier time planning the meeting with having 3 kids. We were told to use them if WE WANTED; it's a tool nothing more.

I like the one2one book because it does lay a some building blocks for the basics of the faith that are key foundations for a new believer but is limited. When I meet with New believers I find they have such little confidence in how to read the bible, how to pray, what is faith, etc.. The one2one is simply an overview and that's what its supposed to be. An in-depth study on any of those topics can be don in time which we were told is a great thing to do.

The Purple book is a great book to further encourage people to open the bible, read it, meditate on it, think about it, discuss it, etc... I see nothing wrong with this and many things right with it. Its a tool. It's not the all-end and certainly not the whole bible. I encourage the new believer to use these tools to open to a scripture and then read the entire context of that scripture and then write down questions to discuss when we meet. If a tool is encouraged that works in getting someone in the Bible when otherwise they wouldn't it's serving it's purpose.

Eventually they will finish these books and then what.. Hopefully they have developed a daily habit of opening up the bible to continue on in growing and maturing. If anyone teaches these books above the bible then they are clearly wrong. I have heard nothing of the sort in any way. If I didn’t have these tools I would go to a Christian bookstore and use something to guide me in how to lead a bible study for a new Christian.

2. Not ALLOWED to mention events at other churches or Para ministry events.
At an outreach group why would you? but I've never been told this.. I have been told that if someone in the outreach has another church they go to they really like then encourage them to get plugged in there and grow. Some even come to our outreach and when there invite gets excited they take them to there church not EN. The goal is to present Christ so they can be free of the life they are leading. They need a church. They need to discipled, I don't care who does it and either does EN as long as it's happening and these people are not just brought into salvation with zero follow-up.

3. Not allowed to help anyone in our cell groups financially....
This is nuts! If you were taught this I would have been right on board with you! The way we reach the lost is not meet them were they are. In our outreach we have helped people financially as well as EN Indy helping people that DON"T even come to EN. They aren't members. They had a need, we couldn't meet the need on our own and our church came up with the money. The family was blessed and didn't praise EN but praised GOD! This opened the door to even more show them God's kindness to them. They are growing in there faith and have re-committed there life to Christ.


Dust- I'm so sorry you were taught those things. Just plain out there.

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

ulyankee, 40/40,

POST-MIL THEOLOGY AND NOLR END-TIME ESCHATOLOGY

Yes, this is a major deal. The issue of eschatology in MCM/MSI/ENC and the NOLR *IS NOT* between post-mil and pre-mil as they would have you to believe. Bruce Harpel feigned outrage several times in his preaching that he was against post-mil members and that he was "going to root them out" etc. There as a cadre of members who would read The Chalcedon Report (http://www.chalcedon.edu/) which I knew by looking at some authors and doctrinal articles was off. A classic example would be the Jay Grimstead (http://www.forerunner.com/revolution/grim.html) and his "Coalition on Revival." (http://www.reformation.net/) There's an entire chapter on these Reconstructionists in Al Dager's book, Vengeance Is Ours: The Church in Dominion (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0962663204/qid=1134413310/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8723184-0883108?s=books&amp;v=glance&amp;n=283155)." I highly recommend reading this book as it is probably the best primer for understanding the foundation that MCM/MSI/ENC and the NOLR is built upon. The other book I highly recommend is Woodrow Nichols unpublished manuscript on John Robert Stevens and “The Walk” from Spiritual Counterfeit Project (SCP) (http://www.scp-inc.org/). This manuscript explains the workings of "Apostle" John Robert Stevens (http://www.dci.dk/?artikel=451) and "Apostle" Royal Cronquist was (one of Bob Weiner's mentors). Sometimes it is confusing to “connect the dots” (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emcd/index32.pdf) which is why some graphics (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/4948/torchart/sld001.htm) are necessary.

Getting back to the reconstruction issue that ulyankee raises, we need to realize that the when Rushdooney (http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/fundienazis/royal_race.htm) and the rest of the reconstructionists (http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v08n1/chrisre2.html) covenanted with Bob Weiner and other NOLR leaders with COR signers (http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/cor/general.htm) in front of the Lincoln Memorial on July 4, 1986, the post-mil theology that the NOLR believes surrounds the notion the personal deity is possible through "becoming" a Manifest Son of God. One "becomes" through the classical method of having another "perfecti" (http://www.etyries.com/sects/perfecti.htm) call them or speak them into existence ala one of Maranatha’s teachers, Kenneth Hagin (http://www.gospelgrace.com/falseprophets/kenhagin/KennethHagin.html). In other words, once the "female principle" is groomed/prepped with the right amount of gnostic beliefs (the seeds are planted) Then these heretical seeds are "activated" by the "prophets" (the male principle) who come in as "trans-local apostles and prophets" and speak forth "light" (false destiny) to the “seeds” (internalized doctrines carefully implanted along with Biblical doctrines; tare among the wheat). In other words, they plant truth with error. The truth becomes the food and nest for the error to incubate.

The eschatology is that when enough of the "Elected Seed" is activated in the hosts i.e. high school and college students they "manifest" the supposed return of Jesus Christ corporately on a world-wide basis. To pull this religious scheme off, they need unified teachings so the participants of the experiment will agree with one-another when they merge different group.

This is how Maranatha false leader Bruce Harpel worked with Maranatha false leader Tom May in planting their "Elected Seed" into high school and college students. Tom May cooked up a theme, “Arise and Shine for Your Light has come.” Tom May, who is a big follower of Rick Joyner, then organized a “prophetic conference” at Lake Geneva, Wisconsin in an extravagant hotel. The “translocal apostles and prophets” were Winkie Pratney and another former LSD-head named Vaughn Clark (http://www.ddmi.org/aboutddmi/Bios/vaughnbio.htm). There was hours of singing, praying-in-the-spirit (with no interpreter – NONE!) along with many sessions from Vaughn Clark (http://www.propheticworshipcenter.org/evangelism/waycross/default.html) and Winkie Pratney pumping us with the notion of A COMING REVIVAL! I witnessed many of these students become completely mesmerized, especially when they had their fortunes told, er, I mean “calling” by “Prophet” Vaughn Clark.

In other words, 'Jesus Christ' here is the classic heresy where Jesus was just like you and I. The "Christos Anointing" came upon Him through the "pattern" of self-imposed death and he was resurrected as the combined "Jesus Christ". This “death and resurrection” pattern stems from a 17th century spiritualized alchemical heresy and used by the Philadelphian Society to reconstruct the fallen church (denominationalism) of their day. The Second Coming or Millennium of Christ is where one gets a revelation of “Christ within” which comes by the “apostolic-directed” (Weiner, Joyner, Hamon, Wagner, etc.) and “prophetically-spoken” (this is the neoplatonic ‘call’) light that strikes the “Elected Seed” i.e. the heresy that one can become co-equal to Jesus Christ by following the “Pattern” laid down by the Son.” This is why the NOLR doctrine on the “Pattern Son” from Bill Britton -- another mentor for Bob Weiner and Rice Broocks – needs to be understood in terms of eschatology if we are to understand this deadly cult.

This is the actual NOLR "Pattern Son" or "Elected Seed" doctrine that MCM/MSI/ENC and NOLR leaders use to deify themselves. Please notice that Christian salvation is only a step towards this deification. This is why forword writes:
***********************************************
“While I don't have a complete understanding of dominion theology, I have seen the result of people living by it and that is a big part of what opened my eyes. As a ministry team member doing alter ministry at Bethel, I was told not to “waste my time on the train wrecks. Instead, look for leaders”. I was told, "we are not a hospital church. There are other ministries already in place for that.”
********************************************
These false leaders have a timetable to their MSOG agenda – a raise up a “Joel’s Army”, a “New Breed” (http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/crj0044a.txt), an “Elected Seed Generation” (http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00093_the_kansas_city_prophets_web.htm) of end-time alchemystically-transformed (http://www.istanbul-yes-istanbul.co.uk/alchemy/Spiritual%20Alchemy.htm) “Joshua Generation” (http://www.268generation.com/passion06/www/p06_intro.html) -- high school and college student who will unconditionally submit their very minds and souls to the Kabbalah-based teachings of the new Illuminati (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07661b.htm) – the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) (http://www.agetwoage.org/ApostolicJustFacts1.htm), the New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR) (http://www.dtl.org/shield/latter-rain-1.htm). These NOLR “Apostles and Prophets” (http://www.ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/4195_apostles_prophets.cfm) have been filled with the Doctrine of Demons (http://www.intotruth.org/res/theglory.html) and they are definitely “spirit-filled (http://demons.monstrous.com/pictures/Gargoyles17.jpg).” In fact, when one examines the call/sermon of “Prophet” Jim Laffoon spoken at the MSI/ENC World Conference, and seeing that Laffoon is a typical example of the other NOLR leaders, they are definitely filled with many spirits that make up the doctrines of the NAR Unholy Alliance (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1585020192.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg).

There is really no need to single out Jim Laffoon either. He is simply parroting the very same doctrines as Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, Rick Joyner, Bob Weiner, John Wimber, and “Super Apostle” Clarence Peter Wagner and his wife Doris. These Bat-Men claim to be able to run through walls, travel from point A to point B instantaneously, be immortal, etc.

Forword states on another post:
********************************************
“Therefore, one Sunday morning after a rousing sermon, I went forward. The pastors were lined up waiting for people to come forward, so I walked up to the only pastor I knew because he had taught the foundations class I went to a few weeks before. I stood there in front of him, waiting for him to look at me, talk with me, pray for me, SOMETHING?!? He did none of the above. He looked past me like I wasn’t even there, as if he was afraid he might miss someone more important. I stood there looking up at him, waiting for some eye contact or ANYTHING for an embarrassingly long time. I was humiliated. I finally started talking even though he was still looking past me. He finally leaned over and spoke a very quick prayer to get me out of his hair and I went back to my seat, humiliated and confused.”
*******************************************
Forword, how would you have known that to these leaders you encountered, to be complete in Christ, you must go through an *ADDITIONAL* process of submitting to the new “Apostles and Prophets” (themselves) and unless you do, your heartfelt and genuine response to the altar call was meaningless. You had NO WAY OF KNOWING what the doctrines were that caused these leaders to exhibit such callousness. You responded to God’s call in a genuine fashion *IN SPITE* of being surrounded by false leaders in a dangerous cult. Now you know why the psalmist says in Psalms 23:

Psalms 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

God has blessed you and will strengthen you as you stand fast in the Liberty wherein Christ has made you free. In a very real sense, you now have compared true Christianity to the workings of this deadly cult. They tried to put themselves between you and God. It didn’t work. They showed their hand.

Blessings,

--Bill

[pilgrim (pilgrim)]

To Everyone,

Re The end Times

I have found this two web sites helpful although I have not yet read the whole web sites.


http://www.velocity.net/~edju/ (This is Ed Tarkowski’s site.)


http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/

[dust (dust)]

Fast,
What I say is true and I believe I may have some of it on CD, so it is not my words....
Regarding number 2 (mentioneding EVENTS or para ministry events), I didn't mean to refer people to other churches..I mean be able to say, there is an awesome conference at this other non EN church. I never understood why we couldn't trust Christians to get in union together at other events. EN is very "closed"...you won't see guest speakers that are not EN. You did in the early days...this brings up the I'm of Paul, I'm of Apollo kind of thinking.....it turns into the snare of the enemy and brethren against brethren.

Fast, I'm with you on teaching newly saved saints in a way that does NOT intimidate them. I remember my own struggle when I first got saved. But, you know it's the spirit in which we teach and it's by the sensitivity and wisdom of the Holy Spirit that we will know how to teach those before us. Guidelines are useful. Laws about teaching place us back under the law and presuppose that we don't have access to the Holy Spirit.

Fast, I think we are on the same heart page. You say you and your wife were teaching together? Not allowed at Bethel World Outreach Center. All couples groups/ co-ed groups were shut down in favor of men w/men and women w/women as the ONLY model. Again, RELIGIOUS. What happens with these kind of rules is that they are NOT GUIDELINES; they become the LAW of the CHURCH and eventually they turn into doctine and somehow become the THING we are debating instead of the gospel.

This is dangerous. We argue about rules that don't SAVE, that make absolutely no difference in our eternal life.


This kind of good IDEA to-GUIDELINE-to RULE-to-LAW-to-DOCTRINE is the same thing that created NO MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS in the Church of Christ. It's not the gospel, it doesn't matter, and it has become the center of the doctrine....and an area of pride. It's a real trick of the enemy to deflect from what is important and what it means to be a true Christian.

Once this kind of bondage spirit enters the church, you can see it on the faces of the people. Bondage has replaced LOVE.

[dust (dust)]

Bill Mack: I will make a conscious effort to study what you have proposed. It is disturbing. If this NOLR/Latter Rain, is NOT at the root of EN, what is? And, do you believe that pastors are in EN and don't know what they have gotten into?

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

dust,

Some pastors, especially the junior "YES men" who have submitted to their superiors may not have a clue what they made a covenant to. Maybe they came on board because, like I did at first, they believed the legitimacy of the statements and proclamations, especially in light of the real potential harvest of souls.

And let's be real here: MCM/MSI/ENC leaders have had decades of "Leadership Training Seminars" and one-on-ones with their leaders who, like self-decieved Bruce Harpel, groom their underlings real well so they can "multiply" their ministry.

For Harpel and all the rest, there is also the financial end of things. We know from testimonials, eyewitnesses and primary documents that this whole cult movement is run like Amway or Shaklee in that there is an "upline" and a "downline." The "downline" churches who buy into the lie that "God is resoring the office of Apostles and Prophets" and wind up signing a covenant with the "ENC Convention" must agree to pay monthly dues. In the case of Bruce Harpel, I was eyewitness is a meeting where he signed on a black leader Alan Holt. Since Harpel plays the part of the "apostle" or some in-between demigod, Holt must pays dues meaning he pays part of the Sunday service offering that gets offered up by his congregants who know nothing of the connection between Holt and Harpel, let alone the New Order of the Latter Rain!!! the congregants, like those in Bethel World Outreach and all the rest are actually paying for their own spiritual and financial destruction.

AND SATAN IS LAUGHING ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK!
YOU CAN COUNT ON IT!!!!!

I have a new article I'd like to send you one of Weiner's heretical sources. It was written by the late Dr. Walter Martin. Ask ulyankee for the article on "The Church of the Living Word" and after reading it, get back to me.

You know, this whole deal has been the worst traumatic experience, but it could have been worse had it not been for the overwhelming number of documents on this whole cult movement. One just has to connect the dots. Big things are taking place and the bad guys will only hope they could squirm out of what's coming. It is so sad. All they had to do is confess what they have done and be very open and specific about the history and details. Instead, they, like the heretical leaders of old, are so entrenched, self-deceived, and arrogant, they have no other option to suffer swift and direct judgment from God who has been very patient and longsuffering. Imagine giving these heretics well over 3 decades to repent and return the $Money they have swindled 10s of 1000s of students out of. Students who just wanted to become right with God after they screwed up a few times in college right after going to Bible camp their last year of high school, etc.

I am also well familiar with the backgrounds of broken families, domestic abuse, drugs, sex, rock, you name it. I have shared the gospel with these very people since I was saved in the 70's. It breaks my heart to see these people become experimental guinea pigs for some very clever heresy from the 17th century -- some being burned never to return to Christ for betrayal.

These leaders think after all the treachery to students that they would somehow escape judgment from the Throne room of God???? You *would* have to be decieved to believe that, now wouldn't you?

This is what the Lord means by telling us that He is coming back for a Bride with [heretical] spot or [doctrinal] wrinkle.

But of course, on the other side of the coin, we absolutely must look at how the Lord is interacting here. God said He would "send a strong delusion" upon all who do not "love the truth":
******************************************
II Thess 2:912
"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders[saling in the spirit, fortune-telling, divination, alchemystical music experiments],
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: ["we are litte gods!!]
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
********************************************
He wants us all to be the Bereans and the testers like He admonishes us to be in his Word. We must try the spirits and prove all things. I thought I was doing that with Harpel, but he simply lied to my face! This is fraud and is illegal in all states. It is subject to criminal prosecution. Evidence is needed which is one reason I advocate the use of wireless recording devices (http://www.supercircuits.com/) where they are legally permitted....

--Bill

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

dust,

I would give anything that MCM/MSI/ENC are not part of the NOLR and that this was somehow all a mistake, but the evidence, eyewitnesses testimonies, documentation, videos, audio tapes, sermons and unholy alliances all point to a very bad end-times nightmare.

The good news is that we don't have to participate in their error any longer and, by the grace of God, we can warn others so they can escape as well.

--Bill

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

dust, I think a few days ago you asked me if I had transcribed C. Peter Wagner's talk from the 2004 World Conference. I haven't done the whole thing but I did post some pertinent excerpts here (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/9244.html#POST231177).

Also, see here (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/arise.html) for a full transcription of another recent C. Peter Wagner talk... even though it's not exactly the same, a lot of the content (including about the restored government of the church, the "strategic gates," etc.) was also covered in his World Conference talk, so you might still find some of it familiar. He used the same warm-up joke about the gender of computers, btw. This talk about overthrowing secular governments with the government of the church complements JL's World Conference talk nicely, imho.

Thank you for your encouragement. I've been very blessed by your posts the short time you've been here.

blessings,
ulyankee

[dust (dust)]

Ulyankee
Good morning....and I just read where you sent me. I've seen Petr Wagner several times.......and the people stir like a guru is coming....it's because what he is bringing to the group is self-importance. Destiny in the church becomes "identity." People everywhere are searching for an identity they can attach to. If they aren't "stars" in and of themselves, they ATTACH to celebrity.
Church celebrity is big now. In fact, in hundreds of years from now, I will guess, that there will be commentators writing about the Christian movement imitating the "culture" inside the church under the deception of self-importance, glitter, and adoration, NO DIFFERENT from Hollywood. People are devouring creepy books/tapes/publications just like buying those movie magazines in the grocery store.

I have a lot more commentary on this....and, hopefully, I can give an intelligent review of what I think is just "nutty."

It's not enough to say, Wagner is "nutty." I want to be able to present exactly what is nutty about him. Of course, when you see him in person, corny, book-selling, and outrageous, manipulative talking, it feels "nutty."
And what's "nuttier" is watching people's faces drink it up and, and I realized these people are under some kind of spell. Now as nutty as that is, I "witnessed" Wagner deliver a pastor from the pastor's school from a "spell of witchcraft" (supposedly he'd picked up in Afica. I witnessed this...I was there to help pray. So, if he's removing, witch doctor spells, he is quite familiar with the occult. Am I stretching things....No this stuff scares me.


Simply, Dust

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

dust, good morning to you too. Other things that have helped me articulate what is "nutty" is reading what these folks are written, on top of doing a lot of Scripture study. Some will make sense Biblically, but some likely won't, as you've observed first hand. With the help of the Holy Spirit we as believers can "test all things and hold fast to what is good," and separate the wheat from the chaff.

It also helped me to also read some decent Christian critiques of these movements... here are some websites to help get you started.

www.deceptioninthechurch.org (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.org)
www.intotruth.org (http://www.intotruth.org)
http://cicministry.org/

Bob Dewaay, the pastor who hosts that last website, has written some really good articles from a Biblical perspective on the modern spiritual warfare movement... here's one that helped me a lot (http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue78.htm).

You should start seeing the same names and concepts come up, the more reading you do.

I also found the following Assemblies of God position papers extremely helpful... I learned that I wasn't the only one from a charismatic/Pentecostal perspective who had issues with some of this stuff...

Apostles &amp; Prophets (http://ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/4195_apostles_prophets.cfm)
Demon Possession (http://ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/4176_possessed.cfm)
Endtime Revival (http://ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/endtime_revival.cfm)
Discipleship &amp; Submission Movement (http://ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/4174_discipleship.cfm)

Finally, an excellent book to start with that places some of these streams (Kingdom Now, Latter Rain, Christian Reconstruction) in perspective is Vengeance is Ours: The Church in Dominion (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0962663204/qid=1134491292/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-7779662-7431830?n=507846&amp;s=books&amp;v=glance) by Albert James Dager.

(BTW, none of these links/sources to my knowledge come from a cessationist perspective - they acknowledge that the works and the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still available to us today.)

BTW, even someone who claims CP Wagner as his friend and mentor had this to say (http://www.intotruth.org/apostasy/cell-church2.htm#wagner) about the apostolic movement (that EN is very much part of)...

I personally worked with Wagner for over five years. He was a friend and mentor to me. I was at one of his harvest meetings recently, (11/01 Pasadena, Ca), where I was shocked and appalled! They are on the verge of cult status with crazy, unbiblical doctrine. They claim to be real apostles, they search for demons under every bush, and they lift prophecy over and against Biblical precepts. They have a total disregard of solid, essential Biblical doctrine. They ridicule people who hold to the Bible, while they lift themselves up rather than our Lord! If you are very, very, very discerning, you can pick up some good insights on prayer and some other things, but it will be like digging through trash to find bottles!

So no, you are not stretching things, imho.

blessings,
ulyankee

[forword (forword)]

I am wondering if there is anywhere one can go to find financial information for Bethel and EN. Is there anything someone can find in public record being that they are a non-profit?

Every other church I have ever been a part of, other than Bethel, would publish financial information in varying levels of detail, either weekly, monthly, or at the very least annually. I have never seen anything from Bethel or EN. Anytime I ever asked anyone at Bethel about this, I would be told I should just trust the leaders, that my only responsibility was to tithe, and that what happened beyond that was between the leaders and God. That is just too easy. I am absolved of any responsibility, I just write a check.

It seems to me that any organization that operates as a non-profit and collects donations should have to report how that money is being used. I really want to reserch this because I gave a LOT of money to Bethel over the years. Does anyone have ideas or information about this?

[formermaranathapastor (formermaranathapastor)]

This is another example of how things have not changed from Maranatha until EN. There has never been financial accountability nor disclosure of fiscal info. I would call or write the accounting firm that EN is using to audit their books, and tell them about the lack of financial responsibility, and ask them for a statement, balance sheet or listing of assets and liabilities. EN announced they were having a third party come in to audit the books. Does anyone know who it is?

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Forword and Formermaranatha, the reason why EN never publish their financial information was because most of the money was diverted to their pockets. According to MSI/EN Bylaws, the finances , that includes tithes of all churches will be handled by the top leaders as they fit. WHich in other words, straight to their pockets, according to the insider who saw the books. For over ten years. Phil has been embezzling for more than 20 years in the small church and EN. None of the top leaders knew it.

Ray Maccollum has an auditing firm that audits the Bethel books but Because Rice Brookes took over Ray maccollum church, he replaces the auditing firm to Phil Bonasso. (Phil Bonasso at that time has already been diverting funds of the entire MSI/EN money straight to his pockets without some of the top leaders knowledge)

Now, since Steve Murrell and the rest of the EN leadership ask for financial disclosure from Phil Bonasso. They saw whats going on, Phil has to step down.

The auditing firm was RE-Hired to handle the entire EN finances.( I do not know if this includes Bethel though ) Its on the communique.

The Auditing Firm is a pretty honest man.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Peter Wagner comes to our church once a year. I missed the one this year. But the last year one, was not a good one. He talks about the Apostles in the Marketplace. Its a new thing he is trying to promote.
But what impresses me is that on the pulpit he acknowledge that he has been doing spiritual mapping and spiritual walk FOR 14 YEARS AND IT DOES NOT WORK. HE SAW LITTLE RESULTS FROM IT. (at least he acknowledge his mistakes LOL ! and wasted 14 years of his life on this) .
So now he thinks that apostles in the marketplaces will work.

I know that Rick Joyner has been very vocal about Peter Wagner teachings that has been out of place. And has since been avoiding Peter Wagner for several years now.

I do not know how bad it has gone, since I was not in my church this year to hear him preach. I will wait next year and give you a report.

Also its one of Peter Wagner's top apostle Cartledge who prophesied to Jim lafoon. About EN is spiritually DEAD and telling Jim Lafoon to leave EN if he wanted his prophetic ministry to be RESTORED.

Personally, I truly think that Peter Wagner is spiritually out of place. But so far , He is not as spiritually damaging as Rice Brookes , Phil bonasso and EN.

I have not heard any testimonies about Peter Wagner teachings that led to abuse. Unlike Rice brookes and Phil Bonasso, both has been abusive spiritually and financially.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Ulyankee, thanks for the info on How Deliverance Ministries Lead People to Bondage.

Its true that Inner healing and deliverance does not work. Its a band-aid solution. Its all about heart issues. My own mother who got born again went through so much inner healing and deliverance in the church. AND still
she would still rather worship the occults.

Repentance is always the key. Maranatha - Victory - MSI - EN have never shown any repentance toward God of their abusive behavior.
Another key scripture because there is no repentance, I will curse those who curse you and blessed those who blessed you. Because of the abuses
of EN on His People, God has CURSE EN Ministry. While the Philippine church has repented , even the pastors who come forward and repented to the congregation of their control ,abuse and legalism. Has been Blessed.

And the Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. (2Timothy 2:24-26).


Thats the difference between the Phillipine church and the EN churches. Only in REPENTANCE will they escape the snare of the devil. NOT inner healing nor deliverance.

Though some of the EN churches does not practice Control and Spiritual Abuse, it is spiritually DEAD. DUE to lack of repentance. All they did was changed their behavior and doctrines. ANd fake the moving of the Holy SPirit in the church.

I want to tell you a story how my pastor is recently dealing with this, He said that he had a couple who went through a marriage counseling with him. After hearing the problem, he said to the husband "YOU ARE MEAN !" There is no inner healing and deliverance will work on that.

[ontheroad (ontheroad)]

Ulyankee -

Thank you for the link to the article by Bob Dewaay. It really rang true with what I experienced in my church with the drastic overemphasis on deliverance/spiritual warfare. I read a few of his other articles on that site related to the one you posted and found them helpful as well. It really is amazing how the focus on destiny is tied in with an obsession with spiritual warfare. It can easily get perverted and chaotic. People get hurt in the process, too, as they become viewed by the deliverance ministers as tools to win another battle rather than as hurting individuals. I know this happened in my church.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

forward,

Bethel World Outreach Center, Every Nation Churches, Inc. and Every Nation Ministries, Inc. (among others) are all separately incorporated non-profit churches. This means that (1) yes, you can get public record corporate information on them but (2) no, you won't be able to get financial records because they are churches and are not required to file IRS Form 990s (annual financial reports) like other non-profits because of the first amendment of the US constitution. However, you can get started on the following websites:

http://www.tennesseeanytime.org/soscorp/ (Tennessee corporations)

http://kepler.ss.ca.gov/list.html (California corporations)

You can then use the information you get online to order the corporate documents for yourself.

Some states allow you to access corporate documents online, including Texas, Missouri and North Carolina.

If you need more info on how to do public record corporate research, feel free to write me at ulyankee@yahoo.com.

blessings,
ulyankee

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

formermaranathapastor,

Capin Crouse LLP

It was in the communique. To clarify Ginger's post, my understanding is that the accountant who according to the communique has been hired to be EN's CFO used to be Bethel's accountant - though I don't believe he is part of the auditing firm - that's separate.

IMHO, one should watch and see if EN and/or its member churches follow through on the financial transparency promised in the communique - if they are trustworthy, then they shouldn't have any problem with revealing their finances. Actually, if they go forward with joining the ECFA they will have no choice but to do so. "Trust the pastor" just won't cut it with the ECFA.

(Message edited by ulyankee on December 14, 2005)

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Titus, that means the churches have adopted Bill Clinton Military policy. "Don't ask and don't tell policy ".

[dust (dust)]

Ginger makes some good points on repentance, but humility precedes repentance and pride disolves it.

To understand "repentance" is to understand Christ. I sometimes wonder if EN understands the true theology of God, what He gifted us with THROUGH Christ, and how He keeps the flame in us THROUGH the Holy Spirit. We don't need a man to control our behaviors, when we get this, because man is an inferior "conscience," an inferior judge of righteousness, and, certainly, an "inferior" legislator of righteousness. This must be the Holy Spirit's job.

At the root, I don't know if EN (the overall culture of this group so to speak) understands repentance in light of the true gospel, because in the introduction of the Purple Book before Contents, Rice Broocks says: (April 2000 version)


"Whenever a professing Christian fails in a public way, we stand before the ruins, asking "Why? Later after a spiritual autopsy, we discover there was never a solid foundation in the person's life. Sure, they believed in Jesus, but they had no real understanding of repentance or His lordship? Many of these casualties were never taught the need to open their lives to fellow believers who could challenge them and stand with them during times of temptation. Who knows what disasters could have been prevented if there had been "building inspectors" examining the foundations."

I truly believe Rice Broocks meant well, but HE has a fault line, called FAULTY THEOLOGY. WE (people) are NOT able to be building inspectors. We are NOT the architects of the gospel.......The Word says, GOD IS THE ARCHITECT. How can we truly be the inspector. NOT OUR JOB. Therein, lies the problem of NO repentance, and the public failures of recent years. I truly believe he has been shocked by the public failures because in his heart, he thinks with legalism, reporting in, micromanagement of "outward" behavior, he can control the "faith" of men, and their ultimate salvation. But, the Word, says, a worldly sorror leads to DEATH.

Men can point out things all day long, even WE on this board, but it is ONLY God who can raise us from being dead in sin, and ONLY the Holy Spirit's counsel that will bring the repentance needed here.
." It is not works in the physical sense, but it is THE WORK the cross has provided. The repentance is true surrender, and can only be preserved by a flask of humility. Pride kills repentance. Fear of losing personal vision and personal power/dreams and positions kills repentance. Jesus PROVIDED forgiveness, by sacrifice. This is necessary to be restored back to God. It is NOT just putting down the porn magazine or attending church on Sunday. We can take credit for that. It is the deep sorrow that is felt first at the offense to our God. The repentance is spiritual, emotional, and not of this world; we can't take credit for this kind of heart.
A human being (made in God's image) repents because his wiring is such as to be in communion/relationship with his Creator...it is truly our wiring to repent and be restored to God.

Why are WE here? To hope for a fault line not in the deception, but in the opening to the Holy Spirit, to heal ourselves and to show the SAINTS who are not yet fully deceived. And, make no mistake...we are faulty ourself and inferior ourself in unveiling the truth, but it will be GOD by the Holy Spirit who makes it crystal clear.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

ulyankee and Bill: I agree end time theology ends up playing a huge role in this ministry because it defines what they aspire to be, a vision of a ruling christian who "rules" society as a glorified being before Christ returns . The congregants are being taken some where that many of them would disagree with if they really knew what that vision is. I think you would be hard pressed to find a movement where end time theology plays such an important role while the subject is seemingly down played, glossed over and presented as not being all that important. Ironic.

As far as Peter Wagners marketplace apostles? About the only thing I acknowledge is that people are in the workplace for most of the week and that is significant but market place apostles? How would that fly when half the employees at a place are not christian and the whole purpose of a business is not to promote the kingdom but commerce and wealth? How would you enforce this thing? Differant apostleships were mentioned like an apostle of the arts? If I was some talented wacky painter or musician why would I want to submit to one of those "apostles" I would want to do my own thing.

What Wagner says really does not make much sense. You can find non christians who are great at business and managing money while there are sincere christians in business who are'nt. I mean Wagner talks about producers but most ministries get most of their funds from the little people who are not rich. I guess Wagners plan might work if you put a great effort into converting the rich to Christ. The only way your going to get that huge transference of wealth he is talking about is by going outside the pentecostal world and taking the restored apostle/enforced discipleship thing to the main line denominations especially the Episcopal church. Then putting those people under the tithe and some apostle who can tap into their wealth and put the screws to them. That is where the big bucks are.

Ginger: I agree with both you and Bill. I can see why you might say Peter Wagner is not abusive like others, just some wacky guy trying to promote something that won't work. The problem is though that a lot of the apostles/prophets in his organization are controlling not just EN. Hammon is there and I noticed other ministries on that list who are very controlling. I can see why a lot of the controllers love this guy, instead of these guys being told to repent, Wagner tells them to take dominion.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Dust: You know I would like to think that it is poor theology that causes the no repentance but I think the main reason must be demonic. Were going on 30 years with these EN leaders. They have heard your type of concerns thousands of times but don't deal with them.

I guess they believe that Jesus is not enough, they need the law to make sure their people are committed and free from sins of the flesh. I guess I can understand how they get trapped with that point of view and end up trying to control things but how can they not repent of their attitude towards the poor? What about the train wrecks, the people that have limited abilities (in their eyes) to contribute to the ministry? I mean read through the gospels and it is pretty easy to see what Jesus thinks about elitism, the poor, the love of money, the sense of entitlement of the pharisees obsessed with image, the attitude that this is not a hospital church. I mean these guys do read and it seems to be pretty easy to figure out what the Holy Spirit wants.

When I left Maranatha and I told my mom a little bit about what I went through it took her just seconds to say that they do what they want to do and that is the way it is. When I talked about the same thing to a young lady she instantly said that is institutionalization. The leaders in EN are so tied up with their EN identity and how their institution defines them. I noticed when abusive systems need to be changed it is not easy because the leaders fight to keep it the way it is. West Point had some terrific abuses going on there in its history along with the marines. Almost all of the high ranking old timers (except for a few exceptions) who came from these institutions did everything to hinder needed reforms. These leaders were not repentant in fact they gloried in the abuses they endured as young cadets. They viewed the abuse process they went through as something good that toughened them up. They were loathe to change the system and make it easier on those coming up after them. You see the same thing with doctors in hospitals fighting reforms that limit the number of hours you can work a hospital intern. Common sense would say you don't want an intern working on someone or administering meds if the guy has been awake for 2 days or has worked 90 hours that week. The thing is time and again these old timer doctors were not repentant of promoting a system that endangered the public, their attitude was I use to work 90+ hours a week it built character. Why change the system? I like it, it weeds out the losers, blah, blah, blah. These old doctors and military men were not repentant, they liked the broken system they identified with it to the detriment to those under them. In cases like this it would almost always take outsiders to come in an change the system, sometimes the system might have an enlightened leader who saw the need for reforms but that was not the norm.

(Message edited by 40days40years on December 17, 2005)

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Well Titus your pretty cynical I would still rather live in a main stream protestant oriented country than any other place on earth. Less corruption, more freedom in every way, some checks and balances, elections, compassion. I think the Japanese companies can be a little cultish and the idea that NOLR missionaries can control the strong willed incredibly corrupt Nigerians? I am very skeptical on that one.

That aside I would hate to have to have people that think like MCM/MSI/EN apostle leaders in charge of my paycheck at a company, ugghhh! I like the present system where work and church are seperate and no one has all the power over me. The problem is that these new apostles from the NOLR are experts at pinning you into a corner and using their bag of tricks to get what they want (guilt, fear, destiny, commitment to God...etc.) and I don't trust them. A normal christian boss not taught in the ways of apostolic manipulation is fine but having people over you as apostles playing those maranatha control and guilt games?

My friend went into business with some controlling manipulative christians and it was a nightmare. They would dock his pay for damage not his fault all in the name of God and then he could not correct them because they were his spiritual superiors.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

40/40 One of the japanese company here in Califoria has a great policy. When Toyota took over GM , The first thing they remove is the "class" structure. Example , when the PRESIDENT OF THE TOYOTA is late , there is no such thing as PRIVILEDGE parking for the CEO. He had to park all the way at the back , far back. There is no special parking, everybody is treated EQUAL. Unlike the american culture including the american churches, the name of the senior pastor is in the front parking lot. Some have valet parking like Bethel.
Their policy is that they believe that the people like the assembly people ,or people who does actual work in the plant,are more important than those people who work in the office. Unlike in EN, people who works in the office or has a title are the "important" people.Instead of the people who actually brings in the money to keep the church going. Or the people in the assembly line. The way the japanese run the company is exact opposite of the way EN run.
Universities and Colleges here actually study their policy and its one of the best run company here.
Its a shame that EN churches will never learn how successful churches run. They have to rely on lies and fantasy how great they are doing.
All we have to do is look at Rick Shelton church, its down to 1000 people from 4000 people? And EN call that success.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Ginger maybe I am wrong but I remember watching the company workers in Japan acting like robots. Toyota is a great company for sure and I do remember seeing Japanese managers giving handicapped workers a break who are trying hard. The American managers would have fired them for being to slow. Every culture has its good and bad but EN seems to take the very worst of America and institutionalize it in its culture.

Titus I have know idea where your coming from and I disagree with most of what you say. If you are in America maybe you should move if you despise it so much. America may not have the highest standard of living anymore or the longest longevity but that is because we allow millions of poor immigrants (many in bad health) into this country that no one else would take, let the rest of the world do that and then let them talk. That is called mercy but somehow you use our mercy to attack America! More bankruptcies yes (it has always been like that read what the french writers said a century ago) but Americans start huge numbers of new companies every year some go broke and people are forgiven their debts unlike other countries. You forget you have to break a few eggs to make an omelot.

You offend me when you say:----> US Gov't support for defense, and a flagship and edge in an area otherwise becoming more inclined to Islam, whose adherents unlike Xianity do not take afvantage of each but actually help in development.

Your defending Islam, there are 20 wars going on all around the world started by Muslims and you don't mention their holy prophet slept with little girls under 10 years of age. Slavery is going on in the Sudan little christian girls are raped, maids all throughout the mideast are treated in beastly ways by muslim employers in muslim nations. Females cannot drive, their heads covered, no democracy, if their wife cheats on them they kill her and I have had many phillipinos tell me if you turn your back on the muslims they will stick a knife in your back. You say America is the most corrupt? Compared to Nigeria?, Pakistan, all of Latin America, all of the mideast, all of Africa, the Phillipines and asia? NOT A CHANCE! They might be better family people but you seriously expect me to believe what you say? I can't cheat on my taxes and I don't have to pay off the judge or police and I as an American am treated fairly by my govt and have freedom of speach. You are typing on this internet tonight because American Christian men died for you by the hundreds of thousands so you could have that right too. If the Russians or Nazis or Japanese warlords or communist Chinese had their way it would not be so. I am offended I could type all night but I am just letting you know that you are way to hard on christianity and America.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Titus one more thing. For the last 50 years there has been an all out assault on Christians in the United States. Why are you offended if guys like Falwell and Robertson finally said were gonna fight. Why be offended when the christians got sick of things like the outlawing of prayer in school and normal traditions like nativity scenes and merry christmas? Congress from the beginning started with prayer why is it illegal for schools? Why do the marxist get 100% freedom of speech and the christians are denied that same freedom? Ofcourse we are free to pay taxes to a bunch of people who deny us religous freedom and try their best to curse God. Why is Jesus a bad word but the same school administration will teach kids in a 3 week class all about Islam and give the kids islamic names and indoctrinate them into Islam? What a load!!! of you know what!
You brought up a Tutsi lady converting from Christianity to Islam because the Hutus murdered her family. That is tribal warfare what does that have to do with christianity?

[livingwaterman (livingwaterman)]

Titus

I would rather follow Rice or even Phil than you and that is saying a lot. Bill Mack note the supporter you have. He apparently feeds on your conspiracy rants. Titus you have no idea what you are talking about. Look back to the abolishionist movement or the sufferage movement using reliable sources as opposed to blogs and you will find strong fundementalist type Christian roots. For instance, a Christian College, Oberlin was the first to have a female black graduate way before it was cool to have blacks let alone women in College. Are you aware of the Christian influences regarding Uncle Tom's Cabin? Are you aware of the Christian influence regarding the end of the slave trade in Britian? Maybe you could read the intro to A tale of two cities but maybe Dickens had it all wrong regarding the influence of Christianity and the preaching of John Wesley. Maybe we need some internet blogger to redefine what actually happened then for me. Those history books and orginal accounts are so tedious and these left wing web sites have cool graphics. Titus I live in a city full of people like you and I find they listen to air america and the like with every bit of sheepism as you accuse in your email regarding Fox news and Rush L.

Very sad you have so much rage but what would you expect.... Maybe you consider this harrassment I do not know, but if you are going to say stupid stuff expect to be challenged on it. If no one challanges you they have probably written you off as a lunatic and don't want to waste the keystrokes.

By the way I do agree with you there has been little hostility towards Christianity in America compared with other countries. However, your socialist buddies not Islam were responsible for more deaths in the 20th century than any other force when you consider what happened in Russia and China. Bible believing Christians have been hammered in China, Russia and throughout the Islamic world over the last 100 years and it is really sad to read such an ignorant email as the one you recently posted considering all the blood that has been spilled.

After all this I can honestly say:

May you be blessed and and blessing!

LWM

[livingwaterman (livingwaterman)]

Titus

I would rather follow Rice or even Phil than you and that is saying a lot. Bill Mack note the supporter you have. He apparently feeds on your conspiracy rants. Titus you have no idea what you are talking about. Look back to the abolishionist movement or the sufferage movement using reliable sources as opposed to blogs and you will find strong fundementalist type Christian roots. For instance, a Christian College, Oberlin was the first to have a female black graduate way before it was cool to have blacks let alone women in College. Are you aware of the Christian influences regarding Uncle Tom's Cabin? Are you aware of the Christian influence regarding the end of the slave trade in Britian? Maybe you could read the intro to A tale of two cities but maybe Dickens had it all wrong regarding the influence of Christianity and the preaching of John Wesley. Maybe we need some internet blogger to redefine what actually happened then for me. Those history books and orginal accounts are so tedious and these left wing web sites have cool graphics. Titus I live in a city full of people like you and I find they listen to air america and the like with every bit of sheepism as you accuse in your email regarding Fox news and Rush L.

Very sad you have so much rage but what would you expect.... Maybe you consider this harrassment I do not know, but if you are going to say stupid stuff expect to be challenged on it. If no one challanges you they have probably written you off as a lunatic and don't want to waste the keystrokes.

By the way I do agree with you there has been little hostility towards Christianity in America compared with other countries. However, your socialist buddies not Islam were responsible for more deaths in the 20th century than any other force when you consider what happened in Russia and China. Bible believing Christians have been hammered in China, Russia and throughout the Islamic world over the last 100 years and it is really sad to read such an ignorant email as the one you recently posted considering all the blood that has been spilled.

After all this I can honestly say:

May you be blessed and and blessing!

LWM

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Titus I will try to make this short because this is not a board devoted to politics. We should not be hijacking the threads that are devoted to seeking reform in EN but hey you posted and I will respond. First off we will not agree I am a WASP republican I was a conservative before I became christian. You brought up a lot of points so this is gonna be disjointed. I still believe that govts. that came from protestant nations are the best govts. on earth because those folks knew their bibles. If I had to choose where to live my first choice would be in one of those nations. My second choice would be Spain or Italy or one of their more benign colonies, good family people, not under the protestant work ethic bondage and they seem to enjoy life. This is my bias and I think it is obvious that historically christian oriented places are the best places, if I was in africa I would want to be in a christian area of africa. Humans are sinners and selfish by nature and are capable of anything, bad things happen no matter what the religion. As far as so called christians committing horrible crimes?, they are not christian but african tribes are victims of circumstance. The colonial powers created a whole bunch of nations composed of differant tribes that hated each other and these tribes should have never been grouped together into the same nation but that is the way it is.

Christians did fight sexual slavery in europe and Britain, they did fight slavery in America, they did promote education and healthcare all throughout the world I disagree.

I agree healthcare is ridiculous and expensive in America but that is the christians fault? America is worldly and likes a lot of filth and has an appetite for it but to blame that on the christians?. Why not blame the left that fought to make that stuff legal and liberal judges sided with them. You said that christians are not being discriminated in America? Hollywood certainly makes christians look like sociopathic idiots in their movies. The left certainly seems to promote Islam on PBS all the time in a sympathetic light. What percentage of this nation is marxist, what % christian. Now you go to the universities and what percentage of the profs. are conservative christian? Of course there is systematic discrimination.

The liberal wing of the democratic party has a foundation. A foundation laid down by guys like Marx and Nietzche I believe that. Joe McCarthy believed that America was at risk from the communists who had 3 million members at one time in the USA, did he go to far? perhaps. The fact is that most of the people he labeled as communists were communists and sympathetic to Marx and many were sympathetic to mass murders like Stalin and Mao. Hey I just can't get to worked up about it sorry the nation was at risk.

Thank goodness the evangelicals have at least put up a fight after getting tired of the christian hating left waging war on them for years. Thank goodness they did not take Billy Grahms advice. You despise evangelicals I am not an evangelical but at least they make an effort to stand up for the fundamentals of the faith that cannot be said about the charimatics and the main line denominations who seem to tolerate apostasy.

I do appreciate you pointing out the whiffs of totalitarianism and heresy in this modern apostolic movement but lets just agree to disagree on the rest of this stuff.

[formermaranathapastor (formermaranathapastor)]

Sorry folks, but Titus is right on this issue.

The abolitionists were mostly Unitarians or members of liberal Christian organizations. When integration was made law in the 1950s and 60s, it was the conservative Christians who opposed it, many of them from the pulpit saying God was against it.

The evangelical and religious right fight for the culture is one of control, and it is just as dangerous to freedom as the fundamental Muslim fanatics.

The conservative Christian mindset that the War in Iraq is our RIGHT to keep ourselves safe, is the same attitude that justified the massacre of Native people in the US. The conservative mindset that has produced a church that is more concerned about stopping gay marriage than feeding the poor is another example of the moral backrupcy of the conservative Church.

And yes, it has everything to do with EN as they are a part of the conservative heresy.

[john_r_jones (john_r_jones)]

FMP,
Amen!
John

[formermaranathapastor (formermaranathapastor)]

Titus- This was the whole sentence of my quote:

When integration was made law in the 1950s and 60s, it was the conservative Christians who opposed it, many of them from the pulpit saying God was against it.

Southern pastors of the Southern Baptist Convention preached from their pulpits supporting segregation as God's Will. It was not until the late 1990s that the SBC apologized for this.

[formermaranathapastor (formermaranathapastor)]

Titus- This was the whole sentence of my quote:

When integration was made law in the 1950s and 60s, it was the conservative Christians who opposed it, many of them from the pulpit saying God was against it.

Southern pastors of the Southern Baptist Convention preached from their pulpits supporting segregation as God's Will. It was not until the late 1990s that the SBC apologized for this.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

It is kind of funny formermaranathapastor because when I first quickly glimpsed at your post I thought you first wrote that abortionists were Unitarians. Getting back to what you were really saying. What is wrong with the conservative christians getting peeved at millions of abortions which will put this nation under a curse? What is wrong with opposing nambla which has the right to set up at the library? Power does corrupt but I see nothing wrong with a christian running for office in a responsible way as a citizen. Quite frankly I am dubious of the danger of an evangelical trying to influence our culture for the most part it is a good thing. I am far more concerned about a radical muslim lighting off a WMD in a major American city and getting away with it because guys like Titus won't protect me and in fact end up making it easy for the bad guys.

God is a God of love but he is a God of war at times to, God is on his throne because he has the power, thank goodness he is just and kind but make no mistake about why he is on that throne. I am not sure about Iraq butI think it is ridiculous at how sure the left is with their "righteous position" but ulimatly this is between George Bush and God. I do know that Saddam was just like Hitler and had a decade to stop messing around with bad toys. If you guys want to be consistent than you should oppose using force on people like Hitler or a rapist roaming around your neighborhood. Sorry I don't think Titus is right I don't think the Amish are right I don't think the Quakers are right. For sure there is sinful baggage in the past history of christians in this nation but your guys alternative for the future is to trust the left, NO WAY they have a history too!, look at what they did in eastern europe. I am not a big fan of Bob Weiner but he is right about the fact that we are in a culture war and if the left had the power our fate would be the same as christians in the former Soviet Union and communist China. Come on get real it is the left that has promoted the porno culture, the drug culture, the cult of Castro and Marx, the idea that your money is the governments. The christians for years stayed out of politics half a century a go and look where it got them? Why don't the christians just give up and let the nation turn into Amsterdam? Former you mentioned the gay question I feel sorry for people that struggle with that problem/sin they are in a tough spot but do we redefine the word marriage and completly change our society to cater to them? You know what happens when a bath house opens in your neighborhood that is a fact inspite of what all the liberal christians wax eloquently about. I will leave it at that since I don't want to sound like Oral Roberts at MLTS. God bless Titus, God bless you but I will not concede to your viewpoints. Ultimately we can agree change comes in the hearts of men from the Spirit of God and our most productive efforts in changing society rest there.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

I said:

You brought up a lot of points so this is gonna be disjointed. I still believe that govts. that came from protestant nations are the best govts. on earth because those folks knew their bibles.

Titus said:

Hardly. The nations with the highest standards of living, like Japan and the scandinavian countries, date their current gov'ts to union actions and organization, not the bible. You would have no proof of your claim other than your fervent desire to believe in it.
------------------------------------
Hey Titus comparing homogenous cultures like Scandinavia or Japan which have hundreds of years of education behind their belts to America is ridiculous. They don't have many millions of immigrants many of them extremely poor from Latin America who come from peasant backgrounds. We on the other hand have a never ending supply by the millions. These cultures don't have millions of descendents of slaves who came from uneducated tribal cultures and were released from bondage not that long ago. Why even waste your key strokes, give anyone a million swedes or japanese and transplant them anywhere into their own nation and come back in a few decades and their going to have a high standard of living. Big deal!

Oh and last time I checked Scandinavia has a heavy protestant influence on the formation of their culture and govt. don't kid yourself, the blessings come from God not marx. You did make a good point about Japan but did not some major world power influence them for the better with reforms in 1945? Titus I stand by what I said the protestant mind set from the Lord is why there is less corruption in governments and institutions in places like America, Canada, Australia, Britain, and the small countries of northern europe. Please don't give socialism and ultimatly Marx the credit. Sure scandinavia has a big mama government that taxes people horrendously that is why those folks don't work to hard since the government swoops in and takes your money away if they think you have to much. America at least gives you a chance to become wealthy. Sure I know there are a few exceptions of wealthy people in Scandinavia like Abba and the guys that created some wireless companies there but it is much harder to become wealthy because of their govts. I'll take my chances here.

Your an Error America lefty and you put a lot of faith in the mama socialist way. Oh by the way Joe McCarthy accusations have been proven true over the last 15 years documents from the collapsed Soviet Union prove it. Sorry big guy those folks he accused had a soft spot for the Soviet Union and disdain for the USA many were enemies in their hearts. The fact that Joe McCarthy died an insecure drunk changes nothing. The congressmen that drilled McCarthy and smirked at his charges are the real dimwits, history proves it. As far as EN leaders in south africa saying outrageous things that is not right but I am confident that the Lord can set them right. We can't change history but many of the missionaries from old delivered a wonderful message to lost souls in Africa. P.S that message is greater than the good news of socialism and islam.

Titus there is plenty of sin to go around yes Strom Thurmond was a hypocrite and yes MLK had a lifestyle very similar to Bill Clinton, should we also bring up the sins of socialism in the last 100 years. Who stopped them and kept them at bay?

(Message edited by 40days40years on December 19, 2005)

[40days40years (40days40years)]

One thing formerp, john and Titus. About the slavery thing. Yes a lot of southern christians supported the institution. These southern democratic christians are people you would probably classify as religously conservative. The question is who freed the slaves? Was it the so called liberal shakers, quakers, unitarians, mennonites and other quasi christian sects whom for the most part were pacifist?

Who died to free the slaves? The ultimate liberators were northern and mid western soldiers. I bet if you look at the majority of those men who died on the battlefield who ended slavery with their sacrifice and you looked at what they believed? I bet most would be classified as christian and theologically and politically conservative. The majority of the soldiers were most likely old line methodists, baptists, episcopaleons, presbyterians,...etc. They were not liberal guys. Just a hunch and if you look at the liberal streams in the main line denominations today you will find they became more theologically liberal when the denominations sent their young people to seminaries in europe in the late 1800's and early 1900's. A lot of young men came back apostate and denying the foundations of the faith and they spread their teachings throughout the denominations. Look at the uppermost leadership in these denominations today. So when it comes to talking about fighting slavery I am just saying that credit should be given where credit is due.

Titus you say I don't back up what I say. How can you honestly tell me that the Lutheran backround of Scandinavia had no impact on those people resisting marxism and fascism and corruption? Look at the french revolution in a predominantly catholic France and then look at the more peaceful reforms in protestant Britain. Why did protestant America manage to pull off a revolution that worked unlike France or orhodox russia that entered into a hell hole? Why was catholic Italy and Spain riddled with fascism and communism, why were their govts. corrupt? Compare those govts. to predominantly Lutheran govts. who brought in peaceful reforms. Lutherans historically were pretty tough on corruption and heresy how can you attribute their sucess to any other source other than Gods blessings. Here is food for thought for you and Bill, did you know that Marx had a maid that stumbled on him engaging in occult rituals, chanting, burning candles I believe over an altar. Many speculated he was worshipping Satan I bet the father of modern socialism was practicing kabala, I also have a sneaky suspicion that predominantly Lutheran societies were far less tolerant of that esoteric "wisdom" hence they were blessed with true wisdom. Foundations were laid a long time ago in northern europe that are blessing them today to bad many have walked away from the faith.

[another_brick_in_the_wall (another_brick_in_the_wall)]

40 days,
Sorry, but I gotta interject here...

Somehow this thread has gotten on the topic of slavery and so forth.

I have just glanced at some of your points, but I gotta state that the purpose of the Civil War was not the intention to free the Southern slaves from their barbaric white Southern masters.

The cause of the Civil War was due to the Industrial North pressuring politicians to tax Southern plantation owners due to competition.

Historians have since spun the concept that it was to fight slavery. That is not the truth. Yes, there was sections of the society that brought this issue to the forefront. But the reality is that what really cause the division between the States was simply competition, industrial posturing, land envy and political mayhem.

One can understand this clouded concept by looking at the rationale of certain politicans as the US "entered" into "war" with Iraq.

I am pretty darn certain that the footsoldiers on either side had seriously no concept of the understanding of why they were fighting.

Yes, slavery is wrong. And it is an unfortunate and heartbreaking element of our history... but
to make this a Christian vs. non-Christian argument is lacking.

And the fact is that the United States is only 200+ years old. People espouse that we are a "democracy", yet in reality what the US has developed is into a Republic. Compare our longevity to that of European countries.

And also, please remember that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a Democrat.

For anyone: Don't buy into the publicity partyline that a Christian must be right, Republican and a conservative.

It's ok to think for ourselves....

[another_brick_in_the_wall (another_brick_in_the_wall)]

40 days,
Sorry, but I gotta interject here...

Somehow this thread has gotten on the topic of slavery and so forth.

I have just glanced at some of your points, but I gotta state that the purpose of the Civil War was not the intention to free the Southern slaves from their barbaric white Southern masters.

The cause of the Civil War was due to the Industrial North pressuring politicians to tax Southern plantation owners due to competition.

Historians have since spun the concept that it was to fight slavery. That is not the truth. Yes, there was sections of the society that brought this issue to the forefront. But the reality is that what really cause the division between the States was simply competition, industrial posturing, land envy and political mayhem.

One can understand this clouded concept by looking at the rationale of certain politicans as the US "entered" into "war" with Iraq.

I am pretty darn certain that the footsoldiers on either side had seriously no concept of the understanding of why they were fighting.

Yes, slavery is wrong. And it is an unfortunate and heartbreaking element of our history... but
to make this a Christian vs. non-Christian argument is lacking.

And the fact is that the United States is only 200+ years old. People espouse that we are a "democracy", yet in reality what the US has developed is into a Republic. Compare our longevity to that of European countries.

And also, please remember that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a Democrat.

For anyone: Don't buy into the publicity partyline that a Christian must be right, Republican and a conservative.

It's ok to think for ourselves....

[40days40years (40days40years)]

brick in the wall, thanks for responding and yes I hear the civil war was not about slavery from all the historians it was about saving the union and all the reasons you and others gave, blah, blah, blah (no offense please). Hell yes!! the civil war was about slavery without it the war would not have happened. I am a man who does not believe the explanations. America is a very special place, a place where freedom of thought rules. A very special place that God created and men who had more of a revelation of what freedom meant than those who came before them succomed to their sin nature and owned slaves and bred them like dogs. Slavery makes America a lie! The entire civil war was all about slavery in the spiritual world, how could it not be? I read books on Finney and others and they said the great revivals did not hit the south. Why? Yeah I understand that God is not a republican it bugged me how it was kind of inferred in Maranatha. MLK is a democrat and he was a major ladies man even while married, Jesse Jackson confirms it along with differant publications I am trying to be discrete but that is the way it is.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

brick in the wall I want to add a little more here. I find it hard to believe that one of the bloodiest civil wars (maybe the bloodiest of all time based on the percentage of the population in combat) was fought over northerners wanting to tax southern plantation owners. I find that hard to believe. The wealthy from the north and south went to the same acadamies and colleges, they drank, smoked and caroused together and cut business deals with each other a lot of them liked each other they could have cut a deal. I view the civil war thing as a fight between satan and God. The institution of slavery in America limited Gods blessing on a nation blessed with the knowledge of freedom and the gospel, it was the height of supreme hypocrisy from a people oh so blessed from on high. My guess is satan knew that a united America meant big trouble for his evil plans in the future if he tried to stir up trouble in Germany or Russia or wherever in the world in the future. Satan could use slavery in two ways, #1 keep it part of Americas makeup and rot her soul and limit Gods blessing on the nation or use it to divide America into two nations. So when guys like Hitler and Stalin came by 80 years later they would not have to deal with a BIG UNITED BLESSED AMERICA. The civil war had to happen if the south did not give up the institution willingly, slavery had to be purged to save the nations soul and the union had to be kept in tact to fight the supreme evils coming shortly into the world. I may be wrong but that is my guess on the situation.

[another_brick_in_the_wall (another_brick_in_the_wall)]

40 days,
I encourage you to do research on the Civil War...yes, my reasons posted may be hard to believe.... but what are the facts?

The politicians of that time did, indeed, attempt to squeeze out economically the Southern plantations owners. Because they were getting free labor. Do research. The Civil War unfolded due to taxation.

The politicians of the time then espouse certain sections' arguments that slavery was a "moral" issue in order to benefit their agendas. Again, my belief is that slavery was wrong...but the culmination of events that led up to this war was not the main moral issue of slavery.

History has in-time scrubbed over this fact in order to justify such horrific events.

And I am quite disturbed by your painting of the "destiny" of America. I think you have been reading too much of Gary DeMar.

And if you believe that America has such "destiny" of redemption then how do you justify America's dropping two atomic bombs on Japanese cities? Don't you recall seeing the horrific pictures from your grade school history books of the dead bodies, animal carcasses and desecrated land? To me that was another "dark day" of American agenda. Did we ever repent for that war atrocity? At that moment, we became the evil of the world.

Same as when we stood by and allowed the Iraqi museum to be looted of ancient-old religious artifacts when we first entered our current war. That was more of a psychological atrocity on their people.

My question to you: Wasn't there slavery in Jesus' time? Wasn't that a part of the Middle Eastern,Roman cultures and timeframe? Even prior to His time?
This is not just a "pox" that those <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> Southerners got into...

(Message edited by another brick in the wall on December 20, 2005)

(Message edited by another brick in the wall on December 20, 2005)

[dust (dust)]

Isaiah 40:9-20
It takes a while to get this......

Remember the church grew through TRIBULATION. Jesus came into a community that was BRUTALIZED. The CONTRAST is what grows the church....that may be why China is the fastest growing church today...

And we are mainly cultural Christians.....

It's not power and strength that grow a church...

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

Isa 40:13 "Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?"

Who would direct the Spirit of the Lord? Just your average garden variety NOLR false leader, that's who. Every time they invoke the Holy Spirit to do acts and address Him as though He were some sort of "Energy Force" like gravity, electricity, etc. they are "directing the spirit."

Every time NOLR false leaders twist scripture like they do and then, through fear of "touching God's anointed" or threats or shunning or telling the congregants' employer to fire them, like Bob Weiner did, they are "directing the Spirit of the Lord" and have automatically discredited *ANY* notion that they are legitimate Christians, much less Christian leaders.

Thank you dust for reminding me how big the Lord God Almighty is over the Earth through Isaiah 40:9-20.

--Bill

[dust (dust)]

Bill, It had to be God today....and thank you for contunuing to drive this home.....I am GETTING IT!

Initially, I typed a long dissertation....it wouldn't go through.
Then I retyped and it got erased. Frustrated I went to my bible reading.....and there it was in Scripture.

God is tremendous, and He didn't place these scriptures there for any better time, don't you think?

Anyone that bows down to these leaders is bowing down to a false idol that is even MORE USELESS than wood!
Dust

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

Dust,

“Anyone that bows down to these leaders is bowing down to a false idol that is even MORE USELESS than wood!”

I believe there is a *very* important Bible lesson having to do with the making of idols, the results and the sin and doctrine of Baalam.

As you may know, Isaiah 44 shows the results that happen to the maker of an idol. Here’s a few excerpts from Isaiah 44:9-20 to refresh the memory:

Isa 44:18-20 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree?
He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?

So, we see:

1) The idol-maker is blinded and cannot see because
2) “he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.”
3) even in spite of the fact that the idol-maker went through the whole process of constructing the idol, they are headed toward destruction.

Q: But why?
A: Worshipping idols is worshiping devils

Lev 17:7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.
Deu 7:26 Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.
Deu 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
Psa 115:8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.
Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Q: So, if God was the legitimate spiritual covering for Christians and you wanted to cause a breach in this covering, how would you do it?
A: One way would be to cause the Christians to deliberately sin by committing idolatry and to join themselves with something other than God so that God Himself would have to follow-up with what He states in scripture and blind His own.

The historical account of an apostate prophet, namely, Baalam, did this and in so doing, his formula was left in scripture. I will cite the smaller account in Rev 2: 14-15:

Rev 2:14-15 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

In a general sense, the trick was to get the “children of Israel” to interact with idols and to commit fornication. The Lord mentions in many other scriptures regarding “going a whoring after other gods” so you know that Rev 2:14 is not limited to sexual intercourse with another person as relating to temple prostitutes, etc. We are talking about spiritual intercourse with an idol(s).

Q: Do an idol have to be inanimate object only, such as the idol made in Isaiah 44, or can it be a living entity?
A: There are many false leaders, past and present, who claim to be a god. You know that Kenneth Copeland (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/kenneth.htm), Creflo Dollar (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/d11.html), Paul Crouch (http://www.trinityfi.org/press/latimes03.html) and many others (http://www.universalworldchurch.org/pain_killers.htm) have openly stated they are gods, little or otherwise.

These living gods are the very same ones who make claims to be the *new* “apostles and prophets” and that unless we submit to their “apostolic covering” (http://www.agetwoage.org/ApostolicJustFacts1.htm) and “apostolic and prophetic authority” (http://www.moriel.org/articles/discernment/church_issues/paul_cain_RT_kendell_and_friends.htm) our fate is doomed, especially according to their mandate as plagiarized from some 17th century writings (http://www.passtheword.org/Jane-Lead/warsofdavid.htm).

In light of who these “newly restored Apostles and prophets” say they are and in light of some documents from the 17th century I have studied, I can say that these new “apostles and prophets” are idols and there are demon spirits behind the doctrines of these “apostles and prophets.” Having said that, if Christians fail in “proving all things” and "trying the spirits” behind these “apostles and prophets” I believe after a time, God will “shut their eyes” and they will be locked or wedded to these false prophets and apostles, which is what has already happened.

FEAR GOD
TRUST JESUS

BE A BIBLEBELIEVER!!!

Rev 2:2 “I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:”

Blessings,

--Bill

[coppertree (coppertree)]

Hi bill/titus -sorry I and others can't read this, because of an enlongated hotmail from titus on 12/17 about a book on amazon; maybe a new thread could started as all want to read with ease.Sorry can't read; it is a software problem. AS like Speakword's talk in tongues as joke, earlier. People giveup if the format is not readable. Totally understandable ;a hard read. We should all say good bye, as of the first, as Fact net has said. Maybe , this could be fixed.

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

What has Factnet said?

[dust (dust)]

Isaiah:44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone, 25 Causing the omens of boasters to fail, Making fools out of diviners, Causing wise men to draw back And turning their knowledge into foolishness,

Bill, I agree on ALL counts....these churches are raising a generation of biblically illiterate people who only know WOF scriptures. The "old testament" scriptures they know usually have to do with being "cursed" so they manipulate them, and "tithing" so they acquire their wealth.

I witnessed one of the pastors bring Rice Broocks to the stage at a staff Christmas party and say, "this man is the closest thing to Jesus Christ there is."

Dust

[dust (dust)]

Rice Broocks is touted by (tim johnson) as the next best thing to Jesus Christ at a Christmas party and the crowd stands still.

This is the same CREW that fights ideology about taking the Christ out of Christmas, and saying Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays....things that don't really matter in God's plan. We expect unsaved people not to understand Christ....but, we don't expect Rice Broocks to be placed in this "god" status.....

See the idolotry...the hypocrisy.....the brain washing....no one seemed to flinch at that statement, but they would get in your face if you said "happy holidays"
DUST

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Absolute idolatory!! I hope to get to understand more of your perspective and communicate with you after the holidays, please Dust.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Dust, Last year here on factnet. ALL those people in EN who were posting here, were actually proven they are illiterate what the bible says. Most of them misquote scriptures after scriptures after scriptures. I had to explain it to them in plain english what it meant not what EN says it meant. AND English is not even my FIRST language !!!

[coppertree (coppertree)]

speakword- factnet sent a letter asking for funds, may may go down after the first of the month. They are in need for funds; they made no comment about the enlogated hotmail addy. This causes the whole post to change shape into this present form. It was me asking for help so posts can be read more easily.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

My strong suggestion is give any amount you can.
Don't think that "well other people would give" Because other people would think the same way LOL ! If it shut down, then Oh well, we did what we can to prevent the shut down.

[dust (dust)]

Speakword,
I'm grateful I'm so busy right now (work and Christmas activity) that I can jump on here in bits and pieces but not get obsessed, which I could. I welcome communication, and "my perspective" has so changed, perhaps a 180 since leaving EN. I see more clearly now, and the Holy Spirit has "swooped" in to teach and contrast truth to me in ways that would take forever to explain. It's as if I got saved all over again, and I was saved and I was baptised in the Holy Spirit.....that connection to the Holy Spirit is what led the way out.....but, now I have a PASSION for the TRUTH and to TO EXPOSE THE TRUTH over the LIES.....

Yes, we should support this board financially. I know that in general there are all kinds of "posters," but someone that is in "tune" to the Spiritual ADVICE, COUNSEL and WISDOM of the Holy Spirit can discern all that, and we are FREE to truly witness here the TRUE GOSPEL of JESUS CHRIST. And to prevent some On-fire TRUE believers from taking their passion to "high places."

Even Scripture that is taught but not guided by the Holy Spirit is false teaching.....because it is taught on man's agenda to promote man, not God, and not under the protection of the Holy Spirit. These men are teaching without hearing, and then demanding the Holy Spirit to show up to do miracles, so that their church can have some crediblity. But, where are the miracles?

How many nights do they go to sleep worrying about some sick person in their church, or someone going hungry or ANYONE that is considered a sheep. They are going to bed at night worrying about damage control, the IRS, attendance, what pastor is being shifted in position, what church body they can take over, what course they can charge for, and what strategy for support they can muster up. And, surely there a worry about who will remain loyal in this mess. Who in leadership is going to walk and talk.

When this becomes the agenda of the church, instead of some congregant's marriage, or caring for their sheep LOVING the sheep, they are no longer a church of the Body of Christ. They are a machine, swept up into real estate deals, ministry takeovers, cover-ups, money sheltering, &amp; schmoozing famous people.

Jesus passed a mantle to Peter, an APOSTLE, to LOVE and care for the SHEEP.

If there were such a thing as modern day apostles, would love and tendiing of the sheep be removed?

Dust

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Ginger my point is if people can't read why would they continue; for some miscued so to speak.}

[j2theperson (j2theperson)]

***hotmail addy? I don't use hotmail.***

Titus, he was referring to a link to Amazon.com--not a hotmail address--coppertree misspoke. The link in question is the last link in your post of Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 10:57 pm. It's too long for people who don't have large computer monitors, and causes the rest of the thread to bleed over to the right of the screen. I hope that explains things. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

dust,

Hang in there. Machines can sometimes grind to a halt.

--Bill

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Dust, thank you for your post yesterday. I shouldn't find it hard to believe that RB was compared that way to Jesus Christ, but then again, that has happened before in "Crusaders Call" which was on one of the World Conference CDs ("Then shall our names, familiar in their mouths as household words--Jesus the King, Bonasso and Broocks, Murrell and McCollum, Bradford and Ball--be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red"). At the time one of us posted the transcript someone said that it was a joke, and someone else said that it was a dramatic performance and should only be seen in that context. Jesting or not, this is serious stuff to be compared in this way to our Lord and Savior, imho.

Dust, the same thing happened to me... as I left EN, I was empowered by the Holy Spirit to discern truth from falsehood in a way I never could before. Like you, this is how the Holy Spirit led me out. I was also empowered to do the work that God had set before me to do after I left. I am totally humbled and pray every day that I may use the gifts He gave me in accordance with His will and to uphold the true, saving gospel of Jesus Christ.

blessings,
ulyankee

[dust (dust)]

Ulyankee,
It seems that you and I are so much alike in searching for truth and guarding our own heart at the same time. You bring excellent research here and yet, you bring truth in love. It's obvious that the Holy Spirit guides you and has gifted you. I pray that same prayer to remain humble and to glorify God.

I lurked here for nearly 18 months, and several months while I was still attending Bethel. I would get angry at this board of posters. And, then I would dig even DEEPER into EN to stay there. I would fight with myself and my spouse to STAY. We were not on same page. I wanted to stay....because I thought I was "tough" and could battle from inside on what wasn't right. It started to affect our marriage and divide us on Sundays. Our wonderful God worked it out for us. It was over. We were not going to return.

And, our new life began. When we attended our first church service somewhere else, we both cried through the whole service because we felt the Holy Spirit, and we heard about the LOVE of Jesus for His people. Instead of praying for others, we went down for prayer (couldn't do that at EN, for we might look weak), and the "chains" came off. It was that dramatic for us.

We would walk on cut glass for Jesus Christ....HOW did we get so swept into a ministry that uses Jesus the way Nike uses Michael Jordan to sell shoes. God allowed us to go so far, probably, so we could SEE SO CLEAR and our PASSION, would stir us the way Paul, the Apostle was stirred.

We were also "guilty" of self-righteousness in EN, of pride, and of religion. We have repented of our own sin inside that church.

I pray everyday to be able to bring truth, and help others make their way out without losing their faith. We are in another church; and we continue to minister to people, as we make ourselves available for the work of the gospel.
Dust

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Dust, I read your and ul posts, of late.
Thank you both for them.
Similar things happened to me after I was out
. I would sit in the back of my new church
and cry because , I was saved.
He loved me insipite of my involvement
in this group MCM/MSI/EN.
I could feel that peace that passes all understanding. It was grand and
the people in the church
thought I just got saved !
Dust and others are going work here, we are affecting people, to see and hear.

[dust (dust)]

In searching for how I was deceived, I started reading my old VLI books. And, I was SHOCKED to see what I had bought into.

And, I quote from VLI, (the context is growing the body, through placement in EN church).

From the COURSE: APOSTOLIC FOUNDATIONS

"Therefore, the answers to the questions, "WHO am I, and "WHY am I here?' can never be found individually, can never be discovered outside the context of corporate destiny!"

(now what they mean by this is you can never leave EN)

Next Section: UNDERSTANDING GOD'S SOVEREIGN PLACEMENTS

1.Psalm 68:6 tells us that God "sets" the solitary in families, but the rebellious dwell in dry land."
2. God sovereignly chose our earthly family. He did not consult with us regarding any of it.
3. The only alternative to accepting God's placement is isolation and barren living, and is the result of spiritual rebellion.



B. THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD IN SPIRITUAL FAMILY PLACEMENT
1. 1 Cor 12:18 tells us that God "sets every member in the Body as pleases Him."
a. Just as God chooses our natural family, He also chooses our spiritual family.
If this placement in spiritual family does not take place, growth, maturity, and fulfillment of destiny cannot take place.
3. Again, the alternative to spiritual family is dryness and isolation, and its root is either ignorance or spiritual rebellion.


And if as a reader, you havent' had enough of what this ministry teaches, the VLI course goes on to say:

The process of finding spiritual family is not unlike discovering God's choices of one's mate for life. ......

LET"S STOP HERE: How does God Choose a mate? Your leader tells you WHO to marry. And, then if you stumble into an EN church because you flesh liked the music, boom, you are IN.....and can't leave.

They make this point.
1. In Matthew 19:6 Jesus said, What God has joined together, let not man separate.
2. This verse not only pertains to marriage, but to all relationships to which we have been joined by God.

This is the "thinking" they use to keep people in EN and for for new converts to believe they can never move over to another Christian Church. And, perhaps, as you mature, and realize you are not called to this ministry, you have no choice. This is a statment that says EN believes they are the ONLY church.

Leaving EN is likened to divorce from God. And, HOW do they suppose God has placed these people in this body? They say "God sovereignly placed you, and you can NEVER LEAVE for you will be isolated, barren and in rebellion.

What if the ministry is not following GOD, is doing things that are opposed to God?

VLI worked this out also. And then they make the case that if you feel confused and torn because you actually start reading the Bible, VLI continues with the following propaganda:
Section 4, page 7:
a. God is not going to wake up one day and command you to jettison your covenant relationships!
b. No disagreements, arguments or misunderstandings must be allowed to "separate" that which God has joined together.

That is exactly the opposite of Scritpure.
Paul says, "Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; Eph 5:11

These are shameful lies that need exposed. They proudly teach about Martin Luther, and yet an argument separated him.
They proudly teach about Paul, the Apostle , and yet differences took HIM right out of the synagogue.
And, didn't Jesus leave us a pattern of discerning lies and manipulation from "religious" leaders? He gave us a pattern to know who HE was from what leaders CLAIM.

The law we live under is the law of TRUTH. IT is completely UNBIBLICAL to form a covenant with a church leader.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.?

The covenant is with Jesus Christ, NOT with a group of men, a group, who have proven to be tied with corruption and failure.
Hebrews 5: " 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
10 called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek,"


And, to liken the Marriage covenant the same as the covenant with church membership is to say the CONGREGANTS are the bride and the LEADERSHIP is the bridegroom. And, you can never leave the bridegroom (this ministry) for that is breaking a covenant. WHERE OH WHERE is the ONLY HIGH PRIEST Jesus Christ in this picture.

Hebrews says there can be no covenant without BLOOD.
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.

Hebrews Chapter 10 SHOULD SCARE ANYONE WHO MAKES A COVENANT WITH CHURCH LEADERSHIP:
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Basically, at this point, they have RESEWN the veil, put you under the law, and diminished Jesus Christ to be used as endorsement and they have thier own covenant that overrides the covenant of Jesus Christ. They remove the POSITION that Christ has in a believer's life, as their SAVIOR, their HIGH PRIEST,
their ONE without blemish. And, in the place of Jesus, are a bunch of gods who DON'T LOVE, have NEVER SACRIFICED, and will take you to the top of the mountain like Satan took Jesus and show you world and what POSITION they will give you.....in your "destiny."

ANd, as a young believer, you have PAID MONEY TO GET THIS DEMONIC DOCTRINE PUT IN YOUR HEAD.
And, I haven't even got into "headship" doctrine yet.
More to come......
Dust

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Dust, yes, it seems you and I are a lot alike in how the Holy Spirit was and is speaking to us... I went through my old sermon notes after I left and it was amazing how much went under the radar at the time, but in retrospect subtly twisted the gospel of love and peace in Christ to one of control, manipulation, guilt and shame. I've also noticed a lot of the same things you did re: VLI, though I didn't go through VLI/ENLI myself - I just have notes and tapes another former member sent me, plus what I've been able to access online. So what you are saying having actually gone through it and knowing how things were taught in context means a lot.

BTW, the music at Bethel was one of the reasons why we were attracted to MSI/EN in the first place. Not just that it was professional b/c you can find professional worship music at pretty much any larger Nashville church, but that everyone seemed so committed. My husband was once a member of Christ Church and after moving back to Nashville, one service there we saw one of the musicians on the platform on his cell phone just as service was starting. You'd never see anything like that at Bethel, right? Amazing how stuff like that makes an impact in one's choice of where to go to church. Or how into it Bethel's congregation was, or how much charm RB seems to exude from the platform. In retrospect, hearing some of the garbled things RB says on tape or CD without it being masked by personal charisma... or hearing JL teach about how worship is a way to get people to submit to leaders they normally would not, is really scary. Yes, I fell for it and I fell BAD. And you're right, I have to repent too b/c appealing to my flesh wouldn't have worked if my flesh didn't respond, no?

Now I go to a small church I've characterized here as like the Island of Misfit Toys, since a lot of us are "rejects" from similar churches. It's better now b/c we've grown somewhat in the last year, both in numbers and spiritually, but it's nowhere near a megachurch with big, exciting music, big productions and timely topical sermons. It's "unplugged" music that praises and worships our Lord and King but doesn't appeal to the flesh or turn people's minds off (I've been leading worship as of late and so I'm really conscious of this, hehe) and no formal church growth or discipleship programs outside of Bible study. We aren't huge, but we are maturing as a body and I've noticed a big difference personally in how I'm being equipped to minister to others just in my being matured and taught in the Word, DURING Sunday service, NO extra tuition charged. The freedom is incredible. I'm glad you and your wife have also found a congregation where you experience the same wonderful freedom in Christ. For His yoke is easy and His burden light.

[dust (dust)]

Ulyankee,
I have been through both years of VLI and intend to search through my notes and make commentaries. I know it has been revised, and I would appreciate knowing if these things I've posted have been eliminated. According to Titus, it's the same stuff from Maranatha.
I have all the books, and I attended every single class. I may have missed once in two years. I'm highly educated and I know how to think concretely. I was a new Christian and learning when I was fed this incorrect teaching.
Dust

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Dust. The earliest VLI, probably that you have been through has been Scraped. After Steve Murrell found out all the junk that Leo Lawson bought in, half of the VLI curriculum was scraped. I think now, its entirely scraped and changed.
The VLI that started in the philippines is different from whats being taught in VLI america. I still remember how Phil bonasso tried to manipulate the whole church to join THE VLI. He even threatened that people are NOT ALLOWED TO SHARE THE GOSPEL TILL THEY FINISH VLI. Thats how desperate he has become. He even has his own daughter, the one that caught up with TOny Fetchel to manipulate the church to join VLI also. She went up the front and tell everybody how great it is and gave "testimonies".
But still nobody wants to join. Everybody discerns its junk back then, till Phil and Leo start to sell it to the entire EN.
Till a few years later, Steve Murrell saw the curriculum....

I am not surprised that Leo Lawson was asked to step down, ITS ABOUT TIME !!!

[dust (dust)]

Ginger, they may have scraped the curriculum, but is what is in this "old" curriculum in the mind and hearts of this ministry. It seems they are still operating on the same concepts taught in this Apostolic Foundations class.
I would like to see the "revised" apostolic foundations class.

Is Leo Lawson still in EN?

[dust (dust)]

Ginger,
They took several hundred people through that old curriculum; if they thought something was wrong with it, they never contacted the graduates, or make any kind of corrections to the ministry team or church. What exactly did they revise?

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Dust, I totally agree with you, its still in their hearts and mind. Leo Lawson is still in EN. At first the 1st and second year of VLI in america was scraped. Steve Murrell replaced it. BUT after couple of years, all of them was replaced. I have not seen the latest ones.

I heard that a lot of EN pastors have seen damaging results after the people went through VLI under Leo lawson and Tony Fetchel. These VLI students have become arrogant, prideful. I also heard there are some EN pastors start having problems with the students. The one in the East Coast has taken his church out of EN because of these students trying to take over his job. What EN promise was that they will help him instead these students tries to takes his job.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Leo lawson came from One of the largest maranatha church. It closed down because it was on TV. A woman from his church went to the TV station and told them about the doctrine God's perfect Choice. And also about the control and abuses of maranatha, that was over 20 years ago. it was a big news all over the TV, because of it the church had to closed down. It one of the biggest scandal back in Maranatha.
Leo Lawson is not new to these type of scandal. he has been through it. I was surprised that Phil Bonasso seek him and hired him in to MSI, this is after I found out Leo's back ground.
Greg Dickaw used to be part of that church. And He laughed about it that Leo still teaches the maranatha doctrines Leo has not change. not even a scandal. ALL his teachings and practice came from maranatha.

I should start a new thread on Leo lawson, I know a bunch of junk he did before. but then again, he has already step down...

[dust (dust)]

Ginger,
My true prayer is that people come to this board, have questions in their gut, and see that they have good biblical reason to question just about everything in EN. Steve Murrell is still PART of this Ministry and he is in a COVENANT with this ministry. I'm sure he's a great guy and I personally like him, and I still LOVE everyone. Doesn't mean, they are biblically sound...

There are still classes in apostlic foundations, and discipleship, and I'm sure that you will find the same ROCK to their foundation, that you are bound by covenant to this organization.
Upon that ROCK, everything else is built.

It is very serious business to be in a biblically illegal covenant with a group of men. It has spiritual implications for all parties.

And upon that ROCK, you are STILL bound, even if they sleep with your daughter, your wife, or steal all your money. There is not public repentance, just covered up sin, of which the members of the church are bound in relationship with.

Thus, you are tied to DARKNESS by covenant. This "revelation" is what hit me yesterday...the bottom line danger for all the members is a covenant that supercedes the covenant of Jesus Christ.

We always suspected financial misdoing. As soon as we "stepped" out the door, our finances took a huge turn UP. ENLI may be rewritten, and I will seek to get those notes, but this fundamental belief is a CORE VALUE of this ministry, and Steve Murrel is still part of this core value of Spiritual Family.

Dust

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Ginger &amp; Dust... my understanding is that Paul Barker, not Leo Lawson is the head of the first two years of ENLI, and according to ENLI Online Barker is still the dean now. Leo Lawson was in charge of the School of Campus Ministry. So Leo Lawson's stepping down might not necessarily impact the first two years of ENLI.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

From How Cults Work (http://www.cultwatch.com/hcwindex.html) (www.cultwatch.com (http://www.cultwatch.com) - emphasis mine):

<font color="0077aa">A cult needs to recruit and operate using deception. Why?

Because if people knew their true practices and beliefs beforehand then they would not join. A cult needs to hide the truth from you until they think you are ready to accept it. [. . .]

A cult will have a slick well-rehearsed Public Relations front which hides what the group is really like. You will hear how they help the poor, or support research, or peace, or the environment. They will tell you how happy you will be in their group (and everyone in the cult will always seem very happy and enthusiastic, mainly because they have been told to act happy and will get in trouble if they don't). But you will not be told what life is really like in the group, nor what they really believe. These things will be introduced to you slowly, one at a time, so you will not notice the gradual change, until eventually you are practicing and believing things which at the start would have caused you to run a mile.
</font>

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Interesting reading about how God sovereignly chose our earthly families and he did'nt consult with us about it, uhhh duhh! I was'nt born when that happened. OK I will try to be nice to those nice MCM/MSI/EN pamphlet writers. The funny thing is most here have parents who chose to hook up with each other and get married because they liked each. Was that Gods choice? How could it be? I realize officially that EN leadership is suppose to be out of the matchmaker game but what about the past? If someone chose not to marry a leader endorsed mate or married someone else and a child was born was that Gods sovereign choice? Hey I guess this board is the dryland according to EN.

Uly and dust talked about worship manipulation and I have seen ulys past links. I know there was the 3 fast songs/ 3 slow songs thing going on in Maranatha. You start out with the faster praise songs then go to the slower worship songs, hopefully the annointing would be sweet and strong near the end and then there would be a quiet moment. Then a word would be spoken which was very exciting as a new believer. (God wants to gather you to him like a mother hen gathers her chicks under her wings is an example) I guess I could see how that could be used to be manipulative but what is so wrong with their worship services? I mean I really don't remember being worked up into a frenzy or altered state and I believe I felt the Holy Spirit. I do agree that having people yell and scream on command is kind of manipulative especially forcing shyer introverted types to go along and behave in a way not similar to their God given personalities.

O.K I am going to start a new thread about message boards so check it out.

(Message edited by 40days40years on December 24, 2005)

[40days40years (40days40years)]

titus were you under Bonasso? it is okay if you don't want to comment. You know interpreting MCM/MSI/EN theology is pretty easy. Just ask yourself how would I interpret this scripture if I wanted to have the most control over the individual or congregation reading it? Wallah! it is that easy. The theology of the roach hotel, roaches check in but they are not allowed to check out using their free will its Gods will you stay. Of course pesky Bill got ejected so he is an exception. Welcome to the Hotel California.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Dust,

According to Steve murrell , he will be leaving EN if En does not change in 3 - 5 months. He only saw half the evil things in EN. Not the whole thing yet. And there are people that Steve murrell knows are already distancing themselves from EN. Steve murrell is not the problem, its who he associate with. Hopefully Steve murrell will figure that himself.
There are a lot of people praying that Steve Murrell will eventually see all the wicked, evil and illegal activities in EN , and also that he will leave. There would be a lot of people would be truly glad once he leave.

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

titus,

You said,

"When I got the maranatha packet from the old CAN, and read through all of the things other people had been through, my eyes mind and heart were opened."

The old CAN was sued out of oblivion by the CoS around 1997. Part of the settlement (http://www.skeptictank.org/moxon.htm) was that CoS took the old CAN files, which included those on MCM. This means that for you to have recieved MCM files from the old CAN, it had to be prior to 1997 before CoS took them.

Do me a big favor please and give me a list of bibliographic citation for the documents CAN sent you so I can:

1) Compare them to my list of documents
2) Get copies of any documents I don't already have.

Thanks!

40/40,

"Hotel California" (http://www.hotelcal.com/) is a very good 2-word description for MCM/MSI/ENC since Weiner supposedly was saved in what is known as "The 1967-68 Charismatic Revival" (http://www.ottawainnercityministries.ca/newsArticlesStats/Jesus_Movement.htm) the majority of which took place in California. One of the major NOLR leaders, namely, John Robert Stevens, had started a movement known as "THE WALK." In its heyday, this NOLR division had over 100 churches. JRS' top disciple-proclaimed-Apostle was Royal D. Cronquist (1927-1998) (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/l27.html#royal). One of The Walk's churches in California was Coniah Chapel. Cronquist lived in Chula Vista, California. On Thanksgiving Day in 1967 while in Royal Cronquist's home, Robert Thomas Weiner had hands laid on him (http://www.hcssparish.org/Portals/1/ordinationeckert2.JPG) with a prophetic declaration of Weiner's "destiny." Apostate and Moral Government Theology (MGT) (http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0184a.html) adept Winkey Pratney (http://jnoise.org/images/winkeypratney.gif) tells us that "God is going to do something again in California." Within his statement, he acknowledges Weiner got his start in California:

Excerpt from,

Pratney, Winkie “God Wants Something From California” TheCall Revolution, Aug. 21, 2004.

"God wants something from California. Here is where Tom and Jewel Cunningham, the pioneer missionaries who influenced Paul Yonggi Cho to use women in his church in Korea, gave the world a son called Loren whose Youth A Mission ministry is now the largest missionary agency on earth and who (as from 2000 AD) is the Guinness Book of Records most traveled man in human history, who has preached the Gospel in every country and nation on earth. Here is where Fuller was founded to provide the world with trained and informed ministry, where US Center for World Mission was born, where the very streets are reminders of the revival and missionary giants of the past. Here is where Bob Weiner had his transforming encounter with the Lordship of Christ and launched Maranatha Campus ministries (http://www.rickross.com/reference/maranatha/maranatha7.html); where John Dawson whose passion to bring reconciliation across the world chose to make His home, and where so many men and women over the decades have gone out in this repeating stream of revival (http://www.alchemylab.com/AJ4-1.htm) to make Jesus (http://fathom.org/opalcat/may2000/COSMIC-CHRIST1.GIF) loved and known all over the world (http://religiouslife.com/images/our_lady_millennium.jpg). Here David Wilkerson (http://www.cephasministry.com/evanelists_a_wilkerson_conversation.html) first conducted his major crusades to reach tens of thousands of teenagers, where Ralph Wilkerson began the Charismatic Clinics, where Kathryn Kuhlman (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/kuhlman.htm) packed out the Shrine, where Jack Hayford (http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/hayford/general.htm) drew on and developed his spiritual roots (http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/anti1.htm) into a national eldership (http://www.seekgod.ca/gc.htm). Here is the studio home of TBN (http://www.trinityfi.org/press/latimes04.html) and Benny Hinn (http://biblelight.net/BennyHinn-1_comp.wmv)."

1) David (formerly Paul) Yongi Cho (http://www.wayoflife.org/otimothy/tl060019.htm) used the same false doctrines and "discipleship/shepherding" mind-control techniques (http://www.letusreason.org/moon8.htm) on milllions of his fellow Koreans much like Korean apostate Sung Myung Moon (http://www.letusreason.org/moon8.htm) exported his heresies right into the Dirksen Office Building (http://www.hillnews.com/news/062204/moon.aspx) in Washington, D.C. and hoodwinked (http://www.harrisdiamant.com/artists_portfolio_files/artists_porfolio_portrait_frameset_template/artists_portfolio_2_hoodwink_portrait_image_fr.htm ) many U.S. senators and congressman!!!!!!! (http://www.iapprovethismessiah.com/2004/05/im-and-i-approve-this-messiah.html)

2) Jack Hayford made an unholy alliance with Rome and the Rosicrucian-based "FAB 5" Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, Charles Simpson, John "Ern" Baxter, Don Basham as indicated in the "General Council Minutes." (http://www.seekgod.ca/gc.htm)

3) Benedictus "Benny" Toufac Hinn is demon-possessed and headed straight for the LAKE OF FIRE along with homosexual Paul Crouch (http://www.trinityfi.org/press/documentation01.html) and his heretical wife Jan. Why does Jan Crouch (http://www.pawcreek.org/articles/endtimes/PaulAndJanCrouch.htm) wear a pink candy-floss wig (http://www.tbn.org/about/newsletter/images/newsletter_pics/2005/paul_jan_reading.jpg) on their TV station -- The Blasphemy Network (TBN) (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/t27.html#subject1)??

Five years after Weiner was involved with the 1967-68 revival and "Apostle" Royal Cronquist spoke him into existence (neoplatonic destiny or a Manifest Son of God alchemically speaking/calling into existence an adept or "prima materia" into existence) Weiner starts Maranatha. According to eyewitnesses and many news accounts, Weiner started Maranatha in response to a need to drug and alcohol treatment and rehabilitation such as was successfully done by David Wilkerson. So, we can truly see that Weiner's Maranatha was indeed a "Hospital Church" (a nickname used by MSI/ENC leaders) from the beginning.

So, what happened? Obviously it was the many evil NOLR heresies that overcame Bob Weiner's mind and heart coupled with his unholy associations with other NOLR pseudo-Christian cultists and their writings, which Weiner diligently plagiarized.

Yes, *HOTEL CALIFORNIA* is a very apt metaphor for MCM/MSI/ENC and many have already lost their lives in this "hotel" where one checks in but is denied the ability to check out by virtue of the weakening effects of the NOLR brand of mind-control executed under the guise of "discipleship/shepherding" and "accountability." It is a hermetic wedding (http://www.crcsite.org/wedguide.htm) between the individual who thought they were in a legitimate Christian church and the sorcerers who have "died to self" (http://www.passtheword.org/DIALOGS-FROM-THE-PAST/resigntn.htm) (Bruce Harpel (http://static.flickr.com/4/3927122_fc52adde81_m.jpg) quoting kabbalist Jacob Boehme (http://www.theosophicalsociety.gr/greattheosophists/jacob.htm)) in "transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ." [II Cor 11:13]

Is their any redemption for cultist Bob and Rose Weiner for continuing their NOLR religious scheme to transform 10's of 1000's of college students into Rosicrucians/Manifest Sons of God?

Is their any redemption for false "Apostle" Rice Broocks (http://www.ricebroocks.com/scripts/templates/zitrusgewaechs-1.00/images/photo01.jpg) who is fully cognitive of the historical heresy that he helped propagate on College Campuses in the late 70's and 80's (http://137.82.100.227/archives/pdfs/ubyssey/UBYSSEY_1981_11_27.pdf) and on into the 21st century? (http://ministries.everynation.org/default.asp)

The answer top that question will be the same answer to the question:

Will Rice Broocks shut down his heretical hotel?

Rice Broocks and the rest of the NOLR hermetic apostles tell us that there is no redemption unless we submit to the newly "restored apostles and prophets", but the Bible says their unholy alliance (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/geneology.gif) created with theosophical architecture (http://architronic.saed.kent.edu/v8n1/v8n103.pdf) will never remain standing when God sends His winds and hail and storms. If for no other reason, it will fall because their foundation (http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Essays/Gnosticism.htm) was built with bricks created from the sands of well-known and highly-documented heretical doctrines mixed with the untempered morter of another spirit (http://www.diakrisis.org/spirit_baptism.htm), another gospel (http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/bldefsophia.htm) and another Christ (http://www.levity.com/alchemy/ellaby.html).

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

--Bill

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Have you seen kingdom of heaven ? thats a very good movie.The beginning talks about going to Jerusalem to look for Salvation and Forgiveness of sins. I like the ending part where the characters realized that they (christians) are not actually fighting for God's kingdom but for Properties and Possessions.

its the same thing being in EN. They tell you to come in EN and to look for your destiny in there. People fought for a kingdom, thinking its God's kingdom. When once you leave, you realized you are not fighting for God's kingdom but EN kingdom. And EN leaders are fighting for Possessions , property , materialistic things and Money.
EN people are illiterate of God's Word. (like kingdom of heaven). EN leaders preaches their own doctrines, not the Word of God. Another gospel, another Christ.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Ginger I never saw that movie where can I get my hands on it?

Titus I am from California and for the most part I really liked the people at my former church and they seemed sincere and Godly. If you talk to Bill by email he can tell you what campus I went to (it's o.k Bill). I never met Bonasso. My campus was not the problem but the national system was that we were in submission to. I was to young in the Lord to understand what was exactly wrong. I never could put my finger on it exactly but the system imposed is best represented by the what Bill recently posted with a link about what Joe Smith believes. The recent postings by Dust about EN's apostolic beliefs also confirms my fears (I don't know how I missed that). The thing is with out this board I would not have known what was said that affected me so deeply because I threw out all my old materials after I left because I could not stomach to look at them . It hurt very bad just to look at just a few sentances of what they said. It is a theology of control and slavery.

Titus are you the left wing guy that got loved bombed in the south east to get you to join the campus ministry?, were you later falsely accused of harrasment by the girls? I read some testimony about a guy like that somewhere but cannot find it even using the search engine here at factnet and I can't remember if it is you. There are just to many posts to weed through.

I may be confused because we are effectively talking about 3 ministries in name, the facts and testimonies get confusing because Maranatha, MSI, EN sound so much alike. The scary thing is that much of the stuff actually sounds worse in MSI/EN than Maranatha.

You know maranatha is actually a very precious word it should mean liberation but to me it means slavery. It is similar to what happened to the word gay which was a favorite word of many. Some very old people get upset at what happened to their favorite word. To be fair I never knew what the word maranatha meant before I joined but it is a little the same way. That word maranatha is ruined for me in this life.

Thanks for the links Bill I will try to hit them all.

(Message edited by 40days40years on December 28, 2005)

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Bill I have been clicking on lots of your links what do you think of the Azusa Street Revival is that of God in your opinion? --- God Bless 40/40

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

40/40 kingdom of heaven just recently came out on DVD. Check out Blockbuster, thats where I got it from. I like it. Its a good movie, pretty long, probably over 2 hours long. Starring orlando Bloom and Liam Nielsen. The movie is about the Crusaders.

[upcase20 (upcase20)]

I acquired mine in 1990 also, Oct to be exact.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

LOL you guys I got mine probably around that time to. Don't have any idea where it is now though I have dozens of boxes of books and junk. I really doubt Bill will find anything on that bibliography list since most of that CAN stuff was already readily available. Bills stuff seems to be far more comprehensive but you never know there may be a a tidbit of info he would be interested in.

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

40/40,

You wrote,

"Bill I have been clicking on lots of your links what do you think of the Azusa Street Revival is that of God in your opinion?"

I believe there was the good, the bad, and the ugly about the 1906-1909 Azusa Street Revival, but to stay on point as it relates to the history of MCM/MSI/ENC and who they really are (the NOLR), let's look at some excerpts from a book written by a pioneer leader of the NOLR, namely, George H. Warnock. The following is an excerpt from a *very important* NOLR book, The Feast of Tabernacles (http://www.kingdomlife.com/kingdom/warnock-feast.htm). Here are some quotes from the introduction:

******************************************
THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES: THE HOPE OF THE CHURCH
By GEORGE H. WARNOCK (July, 1951)

GREAT THINGS AHEAD

Truly the Lord hath prepared great and mighty things for His people: things which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, and which have not entered into the heart of man. (1Cor. 2:9). If God’s true children would only believe this one Scripture with all their hearts, how greatly it would help to release the riches of Heaven, and unlock the flood-gates of Glory! We know, of course, that Christians everywhere loudly profess to believe this, as well as the rest of the Bible; but in actuality they do not believe it. Yes, they will acknowledge that God has some great and mighty things prepared for us when we get to Heaven, but Paul declares in the following verse that these unseen, unheard-of, and unthought-of things are "revealed...by the Spirit," and not by way of rapture or death. (vs. 10).

Let us, therefore, give all diligence to enter into the realm of the Spirit, which realm constitutes the real heritage of the saints. Truly the heritage is ours for the possessing. And if no man from the ascension of Christ until now has entered into it, it still does not make any difference. The fact remains, it is ours for conquest if we can believe for it and receive it. The universal Church has rejected the possibility of possessing it; that is true; but the history of the Church is by no means the pattern of spiritual attainment. Paul did not fully apprehend it either; that is true. But he beheld the glory of it, nevertheless, like Moses who stood on Mount Nebo and viewed the promised land. And furthermore, he pressed forward with all diligence by the Spirit "if by any means" he could apprehend it, and confessed that he had not done so. (Phil. 3:12,13).

Thank God, however, for the assurance that some are going to possess the land! God is not going to close this dispensation until some really enter in and possess their heritage in Christ Jesus. Paul declared, "Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein." (Heb. 4:6). The first generation that came out of Egypt by Moses failed to enter in because of unbelief, and God decreed that they would die in the wilderness. However, He had already sworn that Abraham’s seed would possess the land, and therefore He raised up a new generation who should go in and possess what their fathers saw but refused to appropriate. And they did. God’s purposes cannot miscarry. He will have a people who shall believe their God and possess their possessions. The early generation of Spirit-filled people at the turn of the century took their journey from the blighting wilderness of denominationalism and encamped at their Kadesh-Barnea on the every doorstep of Canaan--but they too failed to enter in because of unbelief. Some saw the vision; the majority did not; and they perished in the wilderness. True, there were a few Calebs and Joshuas who rested in the promises of God and continued to look forward to better things--and God will certainly vindicate His word and His oath, and cause them to possess the land with the new generation that God is now raising up. But as a whole, the people whom God chose from amongst the denominations and called apart into a new fellowship in the Spirit and baptized with the Holy Ghost--they failed to enter into the land, denounced those who exhorted the people to do so--and turned back into the wilderness like their predecessors in Israel.

As surely, therefore, as God’s Word is true and His oath immutable--so surely is the Lord now raising up a new generation who shall be empowered to take the promised land of spiritual power and authority, and enter into the realm of the Spirit of God. "Some must enter therein..." If this new generation withdraws from the promises in the face of violent opposition, it too will perish in the wilderness, and God will wait for still another generation to take the land. Because, "some must enter therein..." His Word has declared it, and it must come to pass. We feel confident, however, that this time God’s people will not fail; that in this great hour God Himself will intervene in wonderful sovereignty on behalf of those who see the vision, and will take them through to complete and glorious victory. We cannot help but believe that this new generation will, by God’s Grace, cross over Jordan and possess the Kingdom prepared for the "little flock" from the foundation of the world. The powers of heaven are being shaken, according to the prophetic Word. Great and momentous spiritual battles are being fought and won in heavenly places. Spiritual hosts of wickedness are beginning to feel the impact of the saints who are pressing in by the Spirit and beginning to possess their possessions in "the heavenlies." And above all, the saints of God are receiving gifts of the Spirit, the gifts are developing into ministries of the Spirit--and these ministries constitute God’s only method "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ; till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." (Eph. 4:12,13).
*********************************************
Salvation by “Revelation”?

Christians are saved by faith in the truth (a foundation) that whoever would believe that Jesus Christ is God’s only begotten Son who was physically crucified for their sins and that God will raise them up physically upon the physical return of Jesus Christ. The issue at hand is the New Order’s redefining of death through the use of metaphors and allegories – the same tools used by Freemasons to twist scripture. George Warnock is telling us we, as Christians, are still not in right-standing with God because we failed to appropriate, by “Revelation”:

“We know, of course, that Christians everywhere loudly profess to believe this, as well as the rest of the Bible; but in actuality they do not believe it. Yes, they will acknowledge that God has some great and mighty things prepared for us when we get to Heaven, but Paul declares in the following verse that these unseen, unheard-of, and unthought-of things are "revealed...by the Spirit," and not by way of rapture or death. (vs. 10).”

The classic way to trap Christians is to make them believe that, although they are saved, there is “something more” they need to do. One of those snares is through Mysticism. In this scheme, you need to somehow tune-in your “spiritual antennae” so you can “get the revelation” of what God supposedly encrypted in His word. The mystics believe any thoughts of doubt will keep them from unlocking a hidden meaning found in scripture. In this case, the theme of George Warnock’s Rosicrucian-oriented mystery school book is obtain the revelation that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is “in us” and that once Jesus Christ is “revealed in us” on a corporate basis as the Manifest Sons of God, we will then be “Overcomers” and manifest immortality, omniscience, invincibility, etc. But first, using an agricultural metaphor, our minds and souls must be put to death, like a planted seed.

George Warnock, and all those current 21st century false leaders in MCM/MSI/ENC/NAR tell us that God is waiting for some “sold-out generation” to appropriate this hidden truth of salvation by revelation:

“And if no man from the ascension of Christ until now has entered into it, it still does not make any difference. The fact remains, it is ours for conquest if we can believe for it and receive it. The universal Church has rejected the possibility of possessing it; that is true; but the history of the Church is by no means the pattern of spiritual attainment. Paul did not fully apprehend it either; that is true.”

Even Paul the apostle, according to Warnock, was a failure! He didn’t receive the hidden meaning of salvation by revelation. And the million of Christians before the 20th century who died failed to “receive” the hidden truth as well!! Grandma Smith who prayed and worshipped God all her life as a Christian believer simply failed, according the George W. She didn’t receive the hidden meaning of Ephesians 4: 12-13!!! She died “outside the camp” so to speak.

THE NEW AGE

George W tells us, like Jim Lafoon, etc. that we are to enter in to a New Age, an entirely new dispensation of the spiritual realm and that there are requirements for entering in. The Bible doesn’t tell us this, but to understand how George Warnock thinks, we need to keep in mind he is using metaphors and allegories to wrest hidden meaning out of scripture:

“Thank God, however, for the assurance that some are going to possess the land! God is not going to close this dispensation until some really enter in and possess their heritage in Christ Jesus.”

All in not lost, according to George W. Many Christians will believe his religious scheme and think the Gospel According to George Warnock is the correct one and they will “possess their heritage” by seizing Jesus Christ by revelation as though He was some inanimate force or liquid that one pours into their body. Also notice that “God is not going to close this dispensation” until man decides to “enter in.” In other words, God’s Hands are tied in moving us into a NEW AGE until some decide to take Him up on His supposed hidden promises. This means man is co-equal and/or bigger then God. You have heard the question, “Can God create a rock so big that He cannot lift it?” If you believe George W and Jim Lafoon and Rice Broocks, then Yes! Their mission is to lead you into the Promised Land of “Revelation” mystery and intrigue so God will then turn on the spiritual machinery and thrust us all into a NEW AGE of the SPIRIT – another code name for a utopian age of immortality this side of the real Second Coming as outlined in Rev. Chap 1. Another historical name for this concept during the 17th century was the Rosicrucian Enlightenment (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415109124/002-5196381-5416017?v=glance&amp;n=283155).

Notice the following statement,

"The early generation of Spirit-filled people at the turn of the century took their journey from the blighting wilderness of denominationalism and encamped at their Kadesh-Barnea on the every doorstep of Canaan--but they too failed to enter in because of unbelief."

Here, GW is referring to the 1906-1909 Azusa Street Revival. He uses the metaphor of the Israelites coming out of the desert to represent those participants of the 1909 Azusa Revival as not *going all the way* by "entering into the spirit." And, please note the condemnation as well!! He again likens the 1909 participants as the Israelites who refused to listen to Joshua and Caleb and wound up forever going in circles:

Num 26:65 "For the LORD had said of them, They shall surely die in the wilderness. And there was not left a man of them, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun."

Please notice the wording of this man as his gnostic writings that were written in 1951 after the North Battleford Revival of 1948-51 was waning, are virtually mirrored by many, many others all the way into the 21st century. False prophets and apostles Jim Lafoon, Rice Broocks, Phil Bonasso, Steve Murrell, Rick Joyner, Francis Frangipane, homosexual Paul Cain, Oral Roberts, Bruce Harpel and countless others parrot George Warnock in declaring that to "enter into the spirit" one must submit to the restored "apostles and prophets." We need to really see just what George Warnock really means since it is crucial to understanding what Every Nation leaders mean when they talk about "entering in". In short, you are allowing your mind, body and soul to go on a type of "auto pilot mode" while allowing the false leaders to pump false doctrines into your mind and take up residence. Then the demon spirits are pumped in upon the laying on of hands and prophetic declarations during times when the individual churches are visited by the "trans-local prophets" that are invited in about every 6-months or so. When they do, false prophets like Todd Bentley would call it a "Fresh Fire" i.e. the cult needs to pump up their captives with new doctrines of demons. If they don't, the congregants will finally wake up and realize this is a cult and they are using the congregants toward world domination and financial sustenance in the very same way a farmer raises chickens. Every now and then the wife goes out and kills about 5-10 birds for food. The rest get put in their cages in the chicken coup and fed a right amount of chicken feed to produce eggs. Like Hotel California, nobody gets out alive, save for a few. The ones who remain are unwitting vessels in a large NEW AGE utopian experiment

ON BECOMING CHRIST: THE ULTIMATE EXPERIMENT
Alchemystical perfection (http://www.sacred-texts.com/alc/arr/arr12.htm) within the operations of a Mystery School (http://www.reversespins.com/OraclesandMysterySchools.html) is a process. “Christianized” alchemical perfection is no different. For a Rosicrucian to become a god, they must obtain hidden secrets that are carefully fed to their minds so as to create a reaction. In a laboratory, chemists mix acids in a called-out procedure so as to minimize a violent reaction. Putting to much acid too fast in the solution will cause a violent reaction. Likewise, Rice Broock, Jim LaFoon, Rick Joyner, George Warnock and NOLR leaders cannot openly revealed and seed their experimental participants with the hermetic doctrines of “becoming a Christ” too fast or there will be a violent reaction – like the congregants asking questions like,

Q1: What you said in your sermon doesn’t line up with the Bible. What did you mean by the following statement?:

"Therefore, the answers to the questions, "WHO am I, and "WHY am I here?' can never be found individually, can never be discovered outside the context of corporate destiny!" [ENC Apostolic Foundations]

Q2: Are you stating that outside of being an ENC member, I will never know who I am in Christ, even though I pray, read the Bible and fellowship with other Christians?
Q3: Are you saying that I am lost unless I submit to your supposed “apostolic authority?
Q4: What makes you believe you even have apostolic authority?
Q5: What do you mean by “apostle” and “prophet” in the first place? I need specific definitive answers in writing and not vague responses to these important questions.
Q5: Why do you give me vague responses?
Q6: Has any studies been done on MSI/ENC to determine if you are a cult? Are you a cult leader?
Q7: Has MSI/ENC leaders made any secret pacts or covenants with known cults? Are you willing to put your answer in writing?



The Rosicrucian adept is slowly fed doctrines that lead them to believe they can be a “Christ”, but the information, if given all at once, would “create a stir” or a reaction where the adept would “wake up” and realize they are being used in a religious experiment. Do you really think that I am way off-base in stating that these leaders would actually use people as human guinea pigs in a secret utopian experiment? Is this notion too far out for credibility? If so, then you will surely be as horrified like I was to discover the paperwork that explained what a well-known group of apostates was doing to an entire generation of young people. The “Fab 5” (http://www.seekgod.ca/shepherding.htm) (nicknamed after the Beatles who were known as the “Fab 4” (http://www.geocities.com/ffbeatles/)) participated in a very large, ecumenical, utopian experiment (http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/travel/amana/utopia.htm) and stated that is what they were involved with in the minutes of their secretive meetings. Here are some excerpts:

“The fourth area is ecumenical communities--What about the problem of double authority in terms of the pastoral authority within the community and the pastoral authority of the denominations and churches that people belong to? What can we learn from such significant ecumenical experiments as Ottamarang, Taize (http://www.taize.fr/en), and The Word of God in Ann Arbor (http://www.rc.net/wcc/annivp13.htm)?”
[General Council Minutes (http://www.seekgod.ca/gc.htm), January 3-7, 1977]

Next, George Warnock states,

"And above all, the saints of God are receiving gifts of the Spirit, the gifts are developing into ministries of the Spirit--and these ministries constitute God’s only method "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ; till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." "

Notice that George states the *only* way for Christians to grow in Christ is through the acquisition and development of the I Cor 12 gifts of the Holy Spirit. DO I really need to mention the dozens of "Schools for the Prophets" that abound all over America in Latter Rain groups??? Mike Bickle's Kansas City occult sect is laden with classes on learning how to prophesy, speak in tongues, give prophetic utterances or in general, "move in the spirit" or "flow in the spirit." Bruce Harpel signed paperwork for a long-time member to attend Bill Hamon's "School for the Prophets" (http://www.ciequipping.com/MTC.html) in Santa Rosa Beach, Florida. In 2000 during spring break, I spent several days there to investigate who these people really were and what their modus operandi was. I was horrified after I finally realized the leaders of this training campus were systematically training high school and college students to be diviners, sorcerers, necromancers and false prophets through classic spiritism. At first, before I made a visit, I was "gung ho" since Bruce Harpel openly stated his Maranatha church had real apostles. But when “trans-local apostle” (http://www.andrewcorbett.net/apostles/ynecessary.htm) John Steele (http://www.jeremygilby.com/index.php?p=78) and wife Julie (http://www.meadows.org.nz/images/JohnJulie.jpg) were announced by false prophet Bruce Harpel as “apostle” I knew I was obligated by scripture to put them to the test.

Just like Peter Popoff (http://www.bible.ca/tongues-popoff-39-17Mhz.htm), these so-called "prophetic ministers" are sometimes fed detailed information about the people they prophesied to beforehand so as to appear they are getting info directly from the throne room of God.

But let's ask the $10-Million-dollar question:

Q: "Don't you think there are some real prophets in the mix who give genuine prophesies from God to the participants?"

A: No, because if there really were, the Spirit of God would proclaim that the ways and means of this cult have destroyed countless lives and made ruin of the body of Christ because their false doctrines and practices do not line up with standard scripture. In other words, the real Spirit of God would testify to the written Word of God and warn the hearers to flee this cult!!

But don't worry! The NOLR leaders created a workaround for the authority of scripture. Oneness Pentecostal (modalist) Tommy Tenney (http://www.pfo.org/godchase.htm) states that the Bible is just a "love letter" (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/tenney.html) from God and we all need to hear from these new leaders (chasing after God by going to every "revival") to receive "Present Truth" and "hear what the Lord is saying to the church today" etc. etc.

George Warnock and human parrot Jim Lafoon tell us that for the body of Christ to "come into the fullness" (codeword for "Manifest Sons of God" and/or "Melchizedeck Priesthood") we need to all be in total "unity in the spirit" etc. This means we need to have our cognitive thinking ability switched off and let the false leaders do our thinking for us. If this sounds scary because the NWO also wants the same thing to happen its because they both are cut from the same cloth; the very same theosophical source has been tapped.

Because George Warnock twists Eph. 4:12,13 to match the declarations of the 1679 Prophecy, we are initially to think what he is saying is scriptural since *it sounds scriptural.* However, did God tells us to accept doctrines as long as they sound scriptural? No, and He never will contradict His instructions to "try the spirits" and "prove all things." But for George Warnock, we will never "enter in" because to question "apostolic authority" is a sure sign of doubt and unbelief i.e. just by asking pointed questions, these false leaders think the congregant is doomed to hellfire. After all, if we really were "flowing in the spirit" we would "just know" or "have a check in our spirit" that the leaders were "anointed by God" and could never be cultists.

George Warnock’s book, “The Feast of Tabernacles” is a *key* document in understanding who and what MCM/MSI/ENC is all about. He reveals classic Mystery School doctrine when one realizes the theme stems from a 17th century source (http://www.passtheword.org/Jane-Lead/60-propositions.htm) – the motivation for the book.

More Later,

--Bill


(Message edited by Bill_Mack on December 30, 2005)

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Bill what disturbed you so much at that prophet school in Florida?. I know that there have been many complaints of control in regards to some churches affiliated with that ministry.

Oh and here is my edited part. Thanks for the laugh! I clicked on your trans local apostle link and I encountered the 4 D's of the modern apostle (sounds like their report card but not really that would be the 4 F's/spiritually unfit http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif.)
The 4 D's stand for Direction, DOCTRINE, Development and Discipline. Yeah we should call this Control City but it was the 2nd "D" Doctrine that got me laughing. I would rather receive doctrine from a hamster than this bunch they have got to be kidding.

(Message edited by 40days40years on January 01, 2006)

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

40/40... perhaps this is why the apostle Paul exhorted Timothy and Titus to hold to and teach SOUND doctrine, the TRUE gospel of Jesus Christ which they initially received from the REAL foundational apostles by the power of the Holy Spirit, not just any ol' doctrine. Timothy was to watch his life and his doctrine closely, and persevere in them so that both he AND his hearers would be saved (1 Tim 4:16). He was also to keep "certain men" from teaching false doctrine (1 Tim 1:3-4).

If "certain men" don't, can't or won't do this, then who will? I guess thus this discussion board...

Happy New Year! I guess FACTNet is here for another day.

blessings,
ulyankee

[40days40years (40days40years)]

AMEN and AMEN!

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

40/40,

"Bill what disturbed you so much at that prophet school in Florida?"

Ever since I became a Christian in 1975 and learned about the spiritual gifts, I pondered the questions,

Q1: How does one know whether these gives as manifested are really from God?

Q2: Is it possible for there to be counterfeit gifts that appear to be genuine?

Q3: If there are counterfeit gifts, then how does the Christian tell whether they are real or false?

Today, the Bible has answered these questions and there are many good online articles on trying the spirits and proving the real from the counterfeit. But to stay on point, I discovered an entire theosophical mindset developed in the 16th century and going strong with the false prophets of the NOLR here in the 21st century.

Remember grade school and high school gym class? They have drills where you play dodge ball, etc. You practice and practice until you become physically adept. What about prophecy? Can you treat prophetic utterences in the same fashion? In other words, can one learn to give prophecy and speak the Word in first place i.e. in God's name -- "Thus saith the Lord" and then give a prophetic word that does not come true?

No, you can't ans scripture doesn't allow for "mistakes":
**************************************
Num 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
Deu 13:1-5 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
*********************************************
So, even if the word comes true, the prophet is false if he/she leads you away from God.

BILL HAMON’S SCHOOL FOR THE PROPHETS

Apostate Bill Hamon's "School for the Prophets" is real a "School for Neoplatonic Sorcery" in that they use "prophecy drills" to train people to prophesie. I witnessed days of this. I also have access to two training manuals from this "school" written by one of the members of Hamon's Santa Rosa Beach, FL church. The vast majority of members and leaders there are laden with spirits of sorcery, divination and witchcraft, but to the person who walks in from the street, it appears to be all Christian and above board. I witnessed exactly how Hamon's school trains prophets to go out to national heads of state in various nations, into schools and colleges (prophetic evangelism) and finally infiltrate the business and industrial sector using the cover name of "marketplace apostles." Hamon's "School for the Prophets" is a Christianized version of Harry Potter's Hogwarts School of Sorcery.

All of this stems from the early pioneer leaders of the NOLR and the 2nd and 3rd generation NOLR leaders accepting the renaissance-era premise that all supernatural magic was stolen by satan and corrupted. The mission then is to learn these dark arts and re-christianize them towards the idea of restoring lost knowledge, etc. Adam originally had the knowledge of how to do magic, but lost it the theory goes. Also many magical books such as the Kabbalah were thought to be divinely-inspired writing and therefore were equal with scripture. Even today, the Book of Enoch and the Book of Thomas or the Book of Jasper are considered as divinely-inspired writings even those scholars removed them from the canon of scripture hundreds of years ago. NOLR leaders have used apocryphal books to formulate their doctrines. I have response letter from them to prove this, but in any event, the idea that “Jesus is a Pattern Son” that they can emulate to become a Christ or “Christed” remains as a strong foundational belief within the current Latter Rain movement. The result can be seen by the many “School of the Prophets” (http://fakefaithhealers.com/howmoderndayprophetsruinoneslife.htm) compounds all over the nation.

As many who visited Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship (TACF) (http://www.tacf.org/) to get the “Toronto Blessing” (http://www.pawcreek.org/articles/endtimes/HolyLaughter.htm) and bring it back to their church so as to “spread the fire” (http://www.bible.ca/tongues-TACF-4-slain.ram) so too is the concept of a “School For the Prophets” brought back to 1000’s of churches who formerly would never even dream of engaging in such magical training. Same story with Brownsville A/G. Maranatha was a *FORERUNNER* in this area decades before the concept become more accepted. Many of the same false teachers at Hamon’s “School for the Prophets” had been guest speakers at Maranatha churches decades ago. This includes apostates that spoke lies at the Maranatha World Leadership Conferences. Not all were liars and apostates. There was a mixture of some legitimate men of God with those who we now know to be beyond redemption.

You may want to think about the following “prophetic vision” (http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word/139) as this may shed light on this phenomenon. Please realize that I found it on the heretical “Elijah List” hosted by apostate Steve Schultz who believes John Wimber was a legitimate Christian leader. The reason I am posting it here is because it illustrates what I am saying.

Now, here are some prophet drills used extensively in Christian Internationals’ “School for the Prophets.” Keep in mind that Maranatha false leader Bruce Harpel signed off for one of his members to attend this “school.”
Excerpts from Bill Lackie’s book, “Prophetic Teams Manual: Pastoral and Prophetic Principles, Module 1” (Bill T. Lackie Ministries, 2001)
************************************************** *****
p.121

Delivery of Prophetic Word

It is a common mistake among beginning prophets to think that I “have to give” the word has given me without any thought to their ability to deliver the word. Eighty-five percent your ability to communicate effectively is based upon other things than the word you use as listed below:

Communication:
-Facial Expressions
-Hand Movement
-Body Movements
-Vocal inflection and quality
-Eyes and what they communicate
-Words and how they are used
-Attitude that is the quality of Jesus

My Comments: Notice the high emphasis on non-verbal communication skills to convey the prophetic “word from the Lord”. Same with pre-sermon worship. Much false teaching and concepts happen during singing heretical NOLR/MSOG songs as they get one to confess false doctrines.

Excerpt from Bill Lackie, “Prophetic Activations: Module One; “Prophetic Activations Dictionary” (Bill T. Lackie Ministries, 2001):

p. 69-70

Activation Name: Circle Bell

Level: Basic
Number of people:
Number of Groups:
Size of room:

Brief Description:

Have the congregation divide into groups of 6-8 people. This simplest way to divide the groups is to divide the total number by 6 and you will [have] the number of groups. For example, you need 10 groups. Then you will go through the congregation [and] call out each person’s number 1-10. Then you tell the 1’s where to gather. You will continue all the way through the number 10.

Instruct the group to form a circle joining hands [sympathetic magic or a small coven?] Appoint a leader for each group. Have the leader find out the names for each person in the circle. Have all the people raise their right and left hand so they know which direction they are going.

In this activation, you will always start with the leader. Have them begin prophesying to the person on their right. They will turn and face that person and put their right hand on the person’s left shoulder. They will begin by saying son or daughter as is appropriate. Give them 5-seconds the first time, 10-seconds the second time, 15-seconds the third time and finally 30-seconds and then the person who just received ministry turns to their right and repeats the same. When they get all around the circle then they stop.

Purpose:

1) Learn to work as a team
2) Learn to prophesy in first person
3) Learn to prophesy with the laying on of hands
4) Each person can listen and encourage the one prophesying as well as learn from what is being said and how it is being said.
5) Train a person in leadership skill

My comments: These exercises would be find for sports activities or in a speech or communication class in high school or college, but as you can plainly see, the leaders are literally “activating” a spirit or force that gives them the ability to prophesy or the activation acts as a touch-point or “green light” to manifest one’s “Christos anointing” to speak force as a part of the Many-membered Manchild i.e. the corporate Christ on earth. All of these different drills were conducted in an upbeat emotionally excited atmosphere. Nothing ever became bizarre as in a “Toronto Blessing” manifestation, but everyone seemed happy they were learning to be an “Elijah” or an “Ezekiel.”

In this atmosphere of on-off “activations” one also notices that everyone has their own hand-held tape-recorder. In fact, when I was there, I could have easily set up shop and made a good living repairing everyone’s broken recorders!! The reason for recording each and every prophecy is because these words are spoken in first place i.e. in Almighty God’s name, so they are co-equal to inspired scripture and treated accordingly.

In any given service during the week at Bill Hamon’s House of Happy Prophets, the leadership might announce they will have an “activation” after the regular service. Some 3-5 hand-picked “mature prophets” are called to the front stage. This group is now operating as a “Prophetic Team.” They have been through the drills, went through all the classes from the traveling teachers (Copeland, Jack Deere, TBN heretics, etc.) and are considered as upper-rank prophets who under the “Apostolic Covering” of Dr. Bishop Arch-apostle Wilford S. Hamon (http://www.theapostolicvoice.com/BishopBillHamon.jpg), will go forth and call out people sitting in the pews so as to give them “a prophetic word from the Lord.” Once you get a word from one member of this team, another member might add to this word. Before you know it – WHAMMO! – you have a brand-new “Destiny”!! They literally speak supernatural “Fresh Fire” into your sad carcass and you soak in the words as though you were dependant upon them for your very existence! Don’t worry if you forget the words because of all your excitement as you are handed a cassette tape personalized with your name and date written on the label. Man, you are on the Planet Crouton at this point! God has just given you – I mean YOU – a personal word from “on high” no less! And to top that all off boys and girls, you are then told to incubate these words by transcribing them, reading them, looking up scriptures that match what was said, etc. Like seeds, these prophetic words are supposed to sprout and grow inside of you like some metaphysical force. Before long, you will be “Elijah the Tishbite”!!! You are now rocketing your way to being a VIP in the Kingdom of God! Nobody’s going to put you down now. You are home free since it has been God who “opened the door that no man can shut.”

There’s just one small problem with this however…

You need to take inventory as to who Bill Hamon and his high-flying Harry Potter prophets really are. In other words, “Who is Wilfred S. Hamon and how does he relate to the larger New Order of the Latter Rain?”

Answer: He’s a major player, so, to believe anything coming out of his hideout in Santa Rosa Beach, Florida would be like bobbing for apples in a manure pile. Even Burger King is better than that!

If you like emotional roller-coaster rides, then Bill Hamon’s House of Strategic Warfare has more excitement than Disney World. You’ll get prophetic ears so big even Mickey Mouse would be jealous!

Also, you might see Jane Hamon come out in her jet-black pants suit and speak forth some Bible verses as though she’s casting a spell.

The worship part of the service is performed by a special choreographed dance team skilled in “Davidic Music Worship.” You will be many women dressed in electric-blue shiny loose pants and sequined tops. They will be undulating large shiny blue sheets up and down to invoke you to “jump into the river” [of hermeticism and neoplatonism?]. Whirling round-and-round they go and where they stop, nobody knows since everybody is whirled into a preparatory state of altered consciousness to “receive” the gold flakes and dust that might magically appear in your hair or body (http://www.intotruth.org/tb/silvania16.gif). Someone told me that so much gold dust (http://www.intotruth.org/tb/golddust.htm) appeared that one time a person collected enough to finance some missionaries….

Make sure you go to the bookstore and purchase the latest book, tape or “Kingdom Now” video or you’ll be left out of the action. And on Friday boys and girls, there will be transportation to the Brownsville Revival in Pensacola (2 hour drive) where you can “receive the anointing” and get a permanent physical twitch or muscle spasm – a sure sign of the “spirit.”

So, now do you see why I am against Wilfred’s Fabulous Farm of Fortune-Tellers (http://cheapnovelty.com/cgi-bin/image/templates/wakewizard.jpg)?

--Bill

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Well Bill thanks for that in depth response to Hamons ministry. I know that after reading about the Christian International Ministries and their affiliates on factnet that I would stay away even if they are bonafide christians? since there are so many tales of control and heavy handedness associated with this group. I mean having to get permission to pray for somebody?

I don't know what is considered appropriate training excercises for a prophet. I am concerned about the attitude I am reading about from some in the charismatic movement where they say it is how you use the "power". I mean the source comes from God or it does'nt. Some of the reasoning sounds a little like the arguments you hear from white witches who say we use the power for good they use it for evil. Common sense would say that the Holy Spirit is not like electricty where an evil man or a good man can flip the switch and turn on a light. I will confess that I am out of my element and don't know much about the subject. I am not as brave as you when you just come out and say that their not christians.

As far as the choreographed dancers you saw that does remind me of the dancing young ladies at MLTS in Maranatha all in their matching dresses. I remember stumbling upon them and in my spirit feeling a heaviness because of the perceived control I saw. I may be out of line and hyper-sensitive to this stuff because if you are going to have choreographed dancing going on you will have to practice it and dress the same.

I clicked on the link about the guy in South America uncovering the lady who had plastic gold flakes coming out of her hair. I wonder if it had been real gold if the guy would have been tricked. Real gold leaf which has been pounded into fine sheets is not all that expensive really. You could make a lot of glittery real gold flakes for not much money.

[leejoe (leejoe)]

ginger1-
This is my first post. I have read many of the comments that have been made by various people and to say the least, it has been interesting.
One propblem... you need to get your facts straight.
1. LCC has never had 4000 members
2. Rick Shelton is doing fine spiritually
3. Rick Shelton is coming back to LCC in August 2006
4. Rick Shelton has not lost his church

Please email me at: lee-joe@sbcglobal.net
if you want to discuss this further.

blessings.}}

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Leejoe,
I got that info from an ex- pastor who used to work at LCC. And who work very close with Rick Shelton.
We'll see if Rick Shelton will come back, because according to Phil Bonasso, he will NOT go back to LCC. And since Phil has step down, I really do not know if Phil plans will press through.

And he is definitely not doing fine spiritually, According to people who work with Rick closely. And people who knows the finances of the church. Because of it, some of them QUIT.

And here is my email address anniegrey@msn.com



(Message edited by ginger1 on January 03, 2006)

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

leejoe, thanks for posting. LCC stated its membership as 4000 members in its 1999 annual report (so before joining with MSI/EN).

You can verify this here (https://www.sos.mo.gov/BusinessEntity/soskb/Filings.asp?661549#).

[victuc (victuc)]

This is my first post as well...
I just moved to St. Louis (after planning the "move" for a year), to attend LCC based on the fact that Rick Shelton was Joyce Meyer's Pastor. (To this day the LCC web-site claims Rick Shelton to be the Pastor.)There is nothing on that site that insinuates an affiliation with EN. I naiively assumed that I was going to make my home church one that was moving in the Power of God with an annointed Pastor. Man, was I excited! My Step-father even put a down payment on a house for me here, packed me, my dog &amp; all my belongings up into his camper &amp; drove me 5000 miles from Fairbanks,AK to begin my new life. He took me to LCC &amp; to my great disappoinment the pamplet read that Rick was on "sabbatical". It was then I was told about an "organization that was hired to "help" the church out. When I learned that it was EN, I wanted to know what kind of doctrine they had, so I went to the net, &amp; very innocently landed on your board. You can imagine my shock, dismay, &amp; disappointment... My 2nd time to LCC I met some very wonderful, loving people who have gone there for several years, but some are also very disappointed that Rick isn't there. And they all have one thing in common... They feel that their church isn't moving in the Holy Spirit, that Jim Lafoon does not have the annointing, &amp; that "leadership" is keeping them "in the dark" from things that are important to them, &amp; what they "deserve" to know... Other concerns are, are they being taught falsely, &amp; where is their money going?
So here I sit in a new house with house payments, &amp; no job, &amp; no pastor, praying for my next "step" &amp; what church I should go to...
}

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Dear Victuc, Welcome, I hope you can read some posts here ;but know God will help you how ever you are, hang onto Him. I have been were you are; He will never forget or looked badly on you. But He is faithful and guide to the right job and people; many here are praying for you. Rest in His great love that never fails. There s life after this.; a good one.}

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

victuc,

You are not alone in getting financially and spiritually hurt because these false leaders aren't telling you who they really are. The core hidden theology is very close to Mormonism.

Take this opportunity to learn all you can so not only this won't happen to you again, but also so you can warn others.

Please avail yourself of the following online info:

Chrnalogar, Mary Alice Twisted Scriptures: A Path To Freedom From Abusive Churches (Chattanooga: Control Techniques, Inc., 1997). http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6312/index.html

Dager, James Albert. Vengeance Is Ours: The Church In Dominion (Redmond, WA: Sword Publishers, 1990). C.f. “Kingdom Theology,” pts. 1-3, http://www.geocities.com/Bob_Hunter/kingdom1.htm

Darrand, Tom Craig and Anson Shupe. Metaphors of Social Control In a Pentecostal Sect (Lewiston, NY: The Edwin Mellen Press, 1984). The “Pentecostal Sect” that Shupe wrote about is the NOLR.

Meerloo, Joost A.M. The Rape of the Mind; the Psychology of Thought Control, Menticide, and Brainwashing (Cleveland, World Publishing Co., 1956, 1961) http://www.ninehundred.net/control/forward.html

Simpson, Sandy, et. al. The New Apostolic Reformation: What is it and where is it going?” DVD &amp; VHS Series, www.deceptioninthechurch.com/nardvd.html (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/nardvd.html) YOU NEED TO BUY THESE DVDs ASAP!!!!

Oppenheimer, Mike. “The NEW ORDER OF THE LATTER RAIN: Their history and legacy”
Let Us Reason Ministries, http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain7.htm. See also:

Latter Rain History by Thomas Holdcroft
http://www.spiritwatch.org/firelatter2.htm

Tricia Tillin articles on the Latter Rain:
http://www.intotruth.org/sum_lr.html

Blessings,

-Bill

[leejoe (leejoe)]

victuc -
be careful not to beleive everything you read on these posts. For the most part they are from a bunch of folks that do not know how to let go of the past.
If you want to discuss LCC, please email me:
lee-joe@sbcglobal.net}}

[upcase20 (upcase20)]

The past tends to repeat itself.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Victuc, there are people from EN , even though you show them evidences of fraud and scam. Public records even, will deny that those are not true. They rather live in deception, chose to live in deception. Live a lie. ALL in the name of Commitment and Loyalty to each other. Rather than living in God's Word and do whats right.
They even turn around and say we are a bunch of people who does not know how to let go of the past.
If thats is true then there is a past for you to even investigate what these EN people did and done. Yes, there are people who can't let go of the past, but its also an opportunity for you to look into what might happen to you if you stay in that church. Hopefully this wont be your future nor even you "past". As early as possible, my advice is to get out the soonest possible before they start abusing you. All of us have wished that we got out early. When we sense something is wrong with this ministry. We would not all be here WARNING people.
Some have lost several thousands of dollars to this ministry, Some lost their healths trying to serve this unsatiable beast (EN Leaders). Its a spirit of poverty in EN, its cousins are depravity and misery. These EN leaders will want more and more of you, your money,time and health. They would preach you are not giving enough , they even wrote in the purple book the heroes of faith are those who get into debt for them. Instead the truth is, these EN leaders cannot manage finances, they felt deprive that you have to give more and more through their preaching of manipulation and guilt. They felt Misery if they did not get enough money, time and your health.

They get into your faces and tells you to give and give. Once you have given your all, they will cast you away. And Abandon you. Thats basically is the history and it has repeated again and again and again and still going.

But if you decided to stay in EN, its your choice. Sometimes a Warning will not do a job, but Experience will.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Dear victuc I feel your pain and I agree with leejoe. I would say that the smart thing is to go to this link and click on every link below the article. Blessings in Christ--- http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain10.htm

[fast_mph (fast_mph)]

victuc-

Unless someone attends LCC they are limited in there advice giving and knowledge. They will give you the horror stories of the few bad apples in the movement of Maranatha &amp; carry over into EN- Which most have been removed removed. Consider attending the church and meetig with the leadership and adressing your concerns directly. Pray and ask God if this is where he's calling you. People mess up but there are many more stories of God reaching peoples lives and forever positivley affecting them through this ministry. I know you were discouraged to learn about this site but and definitley read this if you need to but make sure you speak directly to the leadership at LCC. You deserve to know the truth aboout the past of EN but you need to know where the leadership stands in LCC in regards to the future. Godd Bless you bro!

PS. Many will say in this forum the leadership won't listen to you, nor care about you but find out for yourself.

[victuc (victuc)]

Good morning to all of you &amp; thank you very much for your advice, and especially prayers.
Ginger I appreciate your concern but, I'm not planning on giving any Man nor any "organization" all that "POWER"... I'm a big believer that the only way one can be "abused" is if they "allow" themselves to be abused. As far as taking all my money, there isn't any to take...(That was taken on "my move" here). As far as my time, I haven't volunteered for anything yet, therefore I have no commitments,&amp; as far as my "health" I don't see how that would be possible? My health is "my responsibility", not anyone else's... I feel as though some on here have given these men way more Power than they really have or deserve... I'm not "afraid" of these people... My concern is not being a part of any false teachings, false doctrines, or false Prophets... I am a "truth-seeker" &amp; I am "trying the spirits" without predjudice, critisim, or judgement...
Fast-- I did write Mike Shepard the minute after I discovered this message board. I asked him to explain some allegations. I met him last Sunday &amp; told him I had e-mailed him &amp; he replied "he hasn't been to his office yet, due to the holidays... When I went on to tell him the "context" of my e-mail, he said, "let's don't talk about it now"... It was right before church began so that is understandable... I'm still waiting for his "answer"... I gotta tell you all though, "Praise &amp; Worship" at LCC is wonderful!

[fast_mph (fast_mph)]

victuc-
Sounds like you are handling this the right way. I'm glad you are reaching out to Mike Shepard.
That's what i did here in Indianapolis. I asked the Pastors and they were very open with me and really told me the error of the ministry in the past and were quite sorrowful about the hurts that had happened coming down from some leaders.

I think every Pastor in our church has read this website and is not in any way denying error in the ministry. They just want to learn from the past, move on, and change the perceptions.

What we don't want to do is to throw out the good with the bad.

[victuc (victuc)]

Has anybody heard of any churches in St. Louis that are "moving in the Holy Ghost", with a "spirit-filled" Pastor who has an "annointing" on him or her, that teaches "correct scriptual doctrine", that he/she is "led" to teach, &amp; not "told" to teach? The last place I want to be is in a "dry church"...

[aletheia (aletheia)]

victuc - welcome to this board. I also left an Every Nation church in the Nashville area in 2005.

So sorry to hear about your plight...your move to St. Louis may have a greater purpose. The Lord can redeem your situation. Great is His faithfulness.

I personally suggest you look for another church in St. Louis immediately. Don't waste your precious time trying to reason with the Every Nation leaders there.

Some ways to find another church is to get online and do a google search for churches and ministries in your area, look in the Yellow Pages under "churches," talk to people in the Christian bookstores, look for Christian concert ministries, watch local Christian TV...and first of all, PRAY.

"'For I know the plans I have for you,' declares the Lord, 'plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek Me and find Me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you,' declares the Lord, 'and will bring you back from captivity.'"

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Victuc, then you are on the right track. Discern and Pray, don't be just swayed by music of the church, thats how I got hooked into believing that God is Moving. When the truth is, it was not. I am now definitely in a spirit filled church.

The Word of God is for our guide. Here is a scripture for you to think about.
2 Corinthian 12:12
The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance.

According to their top Prophet Jim lafoon, Phil Bonasso and Rice Brookes are apostles. These is accepted as a fact in all EN churches that those two are apostles.
Now, according to the scriptures, a true signs of an apostle has signs, wonders and miracles.
Being a former member for over 17 years, those two never performed signs, wonders and miracles. In fact their own people say that God does not even answer their prayers. Nor even a miracle ever happened.

Its something for you to pray about. And even ask around.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

LeeJoe, is your real name Jack Harris ?

[victuc (victuc)]

Thank you altheia---
I'm believing &amp; standing on the fact that The Lord didn't bring me this far to leave me now! The way this has all happened, of course there is a plan &amp; purpose for my being here...Just don't know what that is yet &amp; "have to" count my trials all joyhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif... I know that all things work together for good for those who love Him. Well, I've been to the yellow pages, the internet, &amp; my t.v. stays tuned to TBN about 8 hours a day. I did try a little church one Sunday nearby... That wasn't it! And thank you for the scripture, I needed that...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif
Ginger--- How wonderful that you are in a spirit filled church! Mine is comin', praise God! I can do nothing else but "discern &amp; pray"... I'm also praying for the leadership &amp; members at LCC... again, I've made some very nice friends who are as concerned for their church as I am... Not only am I not to be "swayed by the music", but I am not to be swayed by other people's unfortunate experiences as well... If I go by what I "hear" &amp; not by what I "see", it would be real easy for a judgemental spirit to get ahold of me... My main concern is not to be a part of anything that is not in alignment with God's Word... And yes, I do understand what you are saying about JL, PB,&amp; RB... Can someone explain more about Rick Shelton?

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

victuc,

Here are a few churches that have welcomed others who left lcc after en took over:

The Journey. It is located at the present time at 7350 Manchester Rd., St. Louis, Mo. 63143.

Jeff Perry's Family Church. This church is located about 20 miles from LCC. 636-532-3446.

Twin Rivers Worship Center, which is closer to the LCC area. 314-729-0704

So sorry for the detour in your spiritual journey. I hope this helps. God bless.

[victuc (victuc)]

Thank you Ic_20...
You seem to be "in the know" of the going's on in the St. Louis area. Do you live here? For any who would care to assist me further on my "spiritual journey" I welcome any feedback and "confident" correspondence. Write me at: victuc@sbcglobal.net

[dust (dust)]

Ive seen Jeff Perry. Before I read Ic's, I was going to recommend Jeff Perry...Please check it out. I know they have made a presence in the community. I had good experience and was ministered to by him years ago.....
Dust

[dust (dust)]

Vituc,
I believe the only appropriate and Godly thing to do is to go the pastors directly and not believe any of us on this site. Take your questions. Write them out in advance. State your concerns, your fears, and ask for prayer from your pastor. Be humble, and STAND firm.


Don't take our Word for anything.....this board FREES people up to go find out for themself. Study the Word, seek advice from neutral ministers/teachers. Ask around. Pray for wisdom and discernment. Pray for a humble spirit. If you heard from God and obeyed Him to move across the country, God will speak to you again. He led you to this sight, NOT to believe people you dont' know, but to learn for yourself what is your theological position of the gospel? How do you view Jesus Christ and salavation? These are the things the Holy Spirit will direct you in.

Music is NO barometer of the Holy Spirit or Holiness. Great music in a church today often appeals to our flesh. Test the Spirits.

Speak from your heart. Let us know when you have your meeting...a few of us on this board will intercede with prayer that truth will be revealed.

Nothing can set you free like the truth!
Dust

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

victuc, amen to dust, I will be praying for you. I pray that Jesus reveals the truth to you by the power of the Holy Spirit. He is with you always, our Counselor and Teacher, and will not abandon you - John 14:16-18. Abide in Him and He abides in you - John 15:4. Remember that that which does not align with Scripture is not truth. The Lord has spoken to me many times about testing the fruit, and as empowered by Him and being matured in the Word I'm more and more able to do so - all glory and honor go to Him. Test the goodness of the fruit. Not numbers, not excitement, not music, not pretty words speaking destiny (for both good and bad fruit can taste sweet, but not all is truly GOOD), but the evidence of the fruits of the Holy Spirit as taught in the Scriptures.

Search the Scriptures, like the noble Bereans, who examined them daily to see if they were being told was really true - Acts 17:11. I could care less myself about personally being proven right or wrong here... if it turns out I am proven wrong in something, and as a result the truth in Christ Jesus is further revealed to me and/or others, then I rejoice.

blessings,
ulyankee

ps - you mentioned that there wasn't any evidence of EN on LCC's website (http://www.lifechristian.net). Do you mean back when you first attended? If you scroll to the bottom of the page it does say that LCC is a member of the EN family and the EN logo is there...

[dust (dust)]

Victuc and all

Amen Ulyankee. I know people are speaking from the heart here to help you, not roots of bitterness.

And Paul speaks to the Colossians:
Col2:1-8 For I want you to know how great a struggle I have on your behalf and for those who are at Laodicea, and for all those who have not personally seen my face, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument. 5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ. 6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude. 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. "
Dust

[victuc (victuc)]

Good Morning all &amp; thank you for such wonderful support... I feel blessed...
ulyankee--- My mistake... When I saw that logo I was unaware of what it meant, so I thought nothing of it... That was about a year ago, when I was still in AK... It never dawned on me then to even question it...
dust--- Jeff Perry sounds like a good bet... but it's pretty far away... Right now I am "pastor-less" so I'm afraid there won't be any "meeting"... Facts are what I'm looking for... Not a Pastor who may feel that he needs to come to the defense of his church... I wouldn't put anybody in that "position"... After all, who am I? Not even a member... It is my responsibility to "test the spirits", but with the help of the Holy Spirit... Then I can be sure I am getting the TRUTH...
I do have some more questions though... but first I need to look at that "link" that someone posted that took me to "public record" on the history of Morning Star/Every Nation, again, &amp; I can't find it... You know, the one that lists everything chronologically by date, up to the present, about "purchases" &amp; such? I think the thread was about Rice Broocks being delinquent on his property tax... Can anyone put that "link" up here for me?

[victuc (victuc)]

I started a new thread in the wrong place! I thought it would come up at the top so every one could see it. It's under "The History of Morning Star/Every Nation. How can I get it under the "name" I gave it,"Q &amp; A on LCC re: Rick Shelton", so that it can just be "clicked on" when LCC members visit, and they get to the Morning Star/ Every Nation page? There are several who will be interested, that I know of.

(Message edited by victuc on January 06, 2006)

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Victuc, it looks like you found the timeline (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/15773.html?1136588626). If you have any questions about anything on there, please let me know.

If you click on the master MSI/EN thread, (Topics->Religious Cults and Sects->Morning Star International/Every Nation) and click New Thread there, then you'll start a new thread like you want that won't be buried under another thread. You may also want to look at the other threads b/c I seem to remember that someone had already started an LCC thread some time ago, though I don't there's been much activity there.

blessings,
ulyankee

[victuc (victuc)]

I'm just looking for "answers" from people on this board. I don't think I will get them from the question place at LCC... From what I've been told, it has already been tried... I have searched the factnet threads &amp; the answers to these particular questions remain unanswered as far as I can tell.

[victuc (victuc)]

titus did you see the questions posted on the "Q &amp; A on LCC re: Rick Shelton" thread under the History of MSI/ENC thread? (I started a new thread in the wrong place)http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif
Got any answers?

[victuc (victuc)]

ulyankee--- I did find the "timeline", I wanted to get a couple of facts straight before I started that thread &amp; that's how I put it in the wrong place... but I did have a question... What does anybody know about that $673,000 home that Rick bought, or did EN buy that? I found it odd that it was just one month after he joined, &amp; the reason for joining was because his church was in dire straits financially...

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

victuc, I can't tell you that. All I know is that I found the purchase in the public record, but I can't make any further assumptions. I was back and forth for a while on whether it was appropriate to include those in there, but ended up doing so just b/c the timing of some of those purchases seemed to line up with other events... but that could also be coincidental. Even though I've not attended LCC and so don't have first hand knowledge, one of the reasons why I included LCC in my research is b/c it seemed for a while MSI/EN had big plans for LCC, like it was going to be an apostolic center similar to BWOC, KPIC, Metro Morning Star, etc. For example, MSI filed a corporate Certificate of Authority to conduct movement-wide business there. The only other places in the US where they do anything like that is where there are major apostolic centers, like Nashville. Something similar happened with His People, in which they filed a Certificate of Authority to conduct business in the States after they formally joined MSI but cancelled it after the Paul Daniel affair. So I thought there might be possible patterns worth looking into.

[victuc (victuc)]

ulyankee --- Thanks... I guess it doesn't really matter... I've already made my "decision"... Well, the Holy Spirit did really...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[philiprosenthal]

I don't know if the message at the top is supposed to be a prophecy from the Lord or whether it is just a motivational speech - but it contains a factual inaccuracy. The 'water shaft' that Joab climbed up and alluded to and mentioned in the Bible was for clean potable water. It was not a sewer system. I have personally been through it myself underneath Jerusalem. It is full of sparkling clean water from the Gihon spring. Nevertheless, you don't need to go there to know this. There is no record anywhere of ancient Israel having waterborne sanitation. In fact I am not aware of any water-borne sanitation anywhere until about a thousand years later. Even then, even that at Ephesus, the pipes were too small scale for a person to actually climb through. And if you read your Bible thoroughly, everything described about this water shaft points to its use to divert potable water into the city - not to take sewage water out of it.

Nevertheless, more serious is the theological muddle that can be interpreted in the above ideas. They fail to differentiate between EveryNation Ministries and the Kingdom of God.

* Firstly, to win we need to co-operate with lots of other ministries - and an arrogant bunch of graduates trying to take over the world and dominate everyone else including other Christians are not going to be at all helpful. One has to go in with an attitude of humility and wanting to serve everyone else and work with whoever else shares our goals.

* Secondly, the goal is to bring the the culture into subjection to Christ - not the EveryNation hierachy - which is not clearly stated, but was a muddle a lot of leaders in His People got into.

* Thirdly, the kingdom of God is not the same as the church (or any church). The world has gotten seriously into much of the visible church including the EveryNation/His People denomination. Spreading the kingdom involves not just confronting sin in the world, but also in the church. In fact this is a higher priority than confronting sin in the world. Judgement begins at the house of God.

* Fourthly, when Christians take over secular institutions, they usually bring their ideas of governance in from their church background. e.g. The european feudal sytem mirrored the hierachical structure of the Catholic church. That was why the monarchs of europe considered the reformation such a threat - because they practiced accountable church governance and plurality of eldership. I am frightened by what might happen if the governance of a nation or hospital or school was modelled on that of EveryNation. Do we need more leaders in the secular arena who say 'I am Gods anointed, so do what I say or get out'?

[speakword2004]

From:

http://www.biblefellowshipunion.co.uk/2004/May_Jun/EvrltWtr.htm
It seems getting up that way was difficult enough without it it involving sewerage. The whole idea stinks anyway. Why would God depict salvation of the city coming through sewerage and not streams of living water?

Yes, the whole tunnel involved life to the city and was not a conduit for waste disposal. It was the agency/providence of God, not man himself wading through the dregs of society on some mission that made this possible.

Most references cite the extreme difficulty for Joab getting up the tunnel. It would involve some blood, sweat and tears, but not sewarage.

As having an audio copy of the sermon, Philip, it is my belief that it was given during a meeting with a strong prophetic and motivational theme. It was meant to explain ENs vision and mandate etc. I found it also to be highly arrogant. I would wish to see a direct repentence of this sermon as it paints EN as exclusive etc.

We as Christians are called to be associated with living water. The Christian is not called to be contaminated or to swim through sewers. The painting of lost humanity as sewerage is also deeply disturbing.

[40days40years]

Phil and speakword I disagree with what Jim Lafoon said but I don't find the idea of climbing through a sewer to kill lets say Adolph Hitler offensive in the least. I mean if your at war your most likely going to be climbing through a sewer not fresh water. Sometimes the bible is a historical record recording the facts, either way it does not matter to me what they climbed through. What if they had climbed through sewers I would just say thats the bible telling us facts. I am far more offended at the these leaders cheering at the idea of their kids living as rulers and masters over conquered masses instead of their kids living with fellow human beings as fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

[speakword2004]

" there is a mandate on this family, to raise up a generation of men and women as we go into every nation in the earth, and plant a church, at the very essence of that church is a heart to make disciples and train leaders. We’re not here just to train preachers. We are not here just to raise up teachers, no, we are here to disciple every area of life. And there is a passion, there is a fire in our heart! I look at the man God chose, his name was Joab, he was desperate and alone, he swam up into that city all alone, UP the sewer system, in the BLACK of NIGHT, and came up out of the water and opened the gates! Typically, by the time someone has swam up the sewer of that culture, by the time someone has paid the cost to get into a place where they finally have power, because they’ve never been discipled, the very waters they swam in have contaminated them and drowned their faith. I’m here to tell you by the spirit of God tonight that when you are discipled, when you are trained, that when you begin to understand that we are called to take these strategic power structures around the world, that we are called to take them, that we are called… and I appreciate George Bush, (see picture of Israeli Ambassador on website and picture of Rice Broocks with Israeli Prime Minister) but I’m not interested in meeting the President, I want to disciple the next one. I am utterly, absolutely convinced that we will disciple the future leaders of every nation in the world. [cheers and applause] It is our mandate. And as we disciple them, that which is normally defiling, as I’ve prayed about this today, I thought of the man with leprosy, and God said, “go and dip in the Jordan River,” he said, “man, it’s filthy, it’s polluted, it’s dirty, I’m not gonna get in that thing,” but when he went by the word of the Lord not only did it not pollute, it transformed him! And there is a generation of men and women coming out of this family [cheers] DISCIPLED, ACCOUNTABLE, TRAINED, FILLED WITH EXCELLENCE, ENTERING EVERY AREA OF LIFE, SWIMMING IN THE SEWER, GOING UP THE DARKNESS… to open up the gates to the rest of us. "

The depiction of Joab above as "alone and desparate" is not true. He was part of an army and he was not alone. EN depiction of itself as an individual warrior, Joab is wrong. Joab was enabled by David's army. What if he opened the gates and there was no army? His alone-ness and despairation would have helped diddly-squat.

Joab's feat was one that many people have tried and failed at even in modern times. He may have been well trained and very disciplined, but without the supernatural help of God I don't think it would have happened.}

[speakword2004]

"He’s given us the greatest universities in the world. No one’s really asking for them. We’re raising up a generation of children who I believe if my generation is faithful to reach nations, the next generation can begin to rule nations. It is my passion. "

Now this may very well set this sermon/prophecy within the realm of prophecy/prediction as I do not know of any universities where EN owns the place or runs the board of any university. Does EN have any real influence on the great universities of the world such as Princeton, Cambridge, Oxford, The University of The Witwatersrand or MIT?

[speakword2004]

As for sewers being the route for Joab. It appears this teaching is found elsewhere but with different interpretations.

http://www.geocities.com/brianshouse/BRIANSANNEX/hiddencity2.html

E-N-C spider climbed up the waterspout . . .
For a nice academic paper on the subject see:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/438

Also http://www.contenderministries.org/biblestudy/archeology.php#david

[speakword2004]

Well 40/40 the problem is that Joab did not clmb through sewers. I am not being pedantic but you would expct the preachers concerned not to read in sewers when there were none that Joab climbed/swam through.
In the NT book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ the biblical symbol of humanity is the sea and not "s$1%". I find the comparison somewhat odious. Anyway your point is more important. The tone of the whole talk smacks of exclusivity.

Ruling and reigning means Christ has the iron sceptres and we as Christians are under His authorityn and not parallel or separately liscenced. There sounds to be far to much of a mandate seized by EN here rather than a submission to the auhority of Christ who rules and reigns in heaven. The Kingdom of God is not the church only and is not to be stered or conmandeered by a specific group. This Puritan storm can only end with little Cromwells and not little Christs if that be the case.

[speakword2004]

Better than Joab, let's see how Jesus entered Jerusalem. He rode in on a donkey as a servant. He declared His Kingship on a humble beast of burden. He was not entering the stronghold to slay people, but to save people. He did not infiltrate so much as impact the city with His actions and in so doing He changed the course of history. He laid down His life -He showed us how to overcome! Not by clever strategies and not by stealth but by the blood of the Lamb, the Word of our Testimony and not loving His life unto death. The Kingship of Jesus is then shown by Him cleansing the temple and if you follow the story you next see Him healing. There is nothing in that sermon above about serving the nations, healing the nations. Just a cursory reference in the midst of a battle-cry.

We see His message that He will save as He enters. He doesn't spend time discussing the philosophy behind the Roman dictatorship and the roots of Hellinistic government. He still rides that donkey which He has come on. He is not on the white horse yet, with His rod of Iron which is coming. There is still time for repentence, forgiveness, healing and reconciliation.

Jesus does not bring a revolution by entering Jerusalem, the stronghoold city, so much as He brings salvation: the true message of the Great Commission.

[speakword2004]

For partial preterists like me I can understand the author drawing parallels to the birthing of things from the church in comparison to events in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ (Bill Mack note that it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ and not the Revelation of the Antichrist and that Jesus is the main topic of this book and the whole Bible).

The problem in my interpretation is that whilst satan may seek to devour and destroy what mother church may give birth to, salvation is at hand and God has a way which prccudes this from ultimately being successful. We will overcome!, but supernaturally (see my blog) and not by man- made plans and man-made and self-anointed strategies.

For a partial preterist explaination of the relevant passage see:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/mckenzie-duncan_pp_05-01.html
and{http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/mckenzie-duncan_pp_02.html
EN would do well to remember that it is Jesus on the White horse and on the donkey into Jerusalem. I agree with the speaker that it should be an army of love and prayer, and his qualification is a good one, but this army should train to ride donkies before white horses (in and from heaven where from hence His judgemnets are and will be executed) and this army needs to be led into the cities as Jesus was led on a donkey. The army does not have to train to scale sewers and see humanity as a sewer and view the lost as sewerage. It does not need to stealthily infiltrate so much as announce itself by doing what Jesus Christ did when he entered Jerusalem. We need to be like Christ and not Joab. Read about the rest of his life. He is not a good model. Christians should train on donkies.

(Message edited by speakword2004 on March 22, 2006)

(Message edited by speakword2004 on March 22, 2006)

[speakword2004]

I somewhat remember that this water tunnel emptied into the pool of Siloam where Jesus healed the man blind from birth.

http://www.bibleplaces.com/blog/2005/10/siloam-channel-before-and-after.html

The correspondent above says that it is like a sewer in some parts now, but that was never its original function.

Parts of it are open to the public and it was definately meant as a watercourse. The pool was destroyed in AD70 by the Romans and also 500 years before by the Asssyrians. But it was always a place of healing life giving water and not a brickhouse for public ablutions as the EN speaker implies.

I have found a site that has a possible medieval Jewish interpretation that it was a sewer.

http://www.bibarch.com/Perspectives/6.2E.htm

[blueboy96]

I think we may have hit a nerve somewhere when Thelma and friends cut this out of EN's Wikipedia article.

But there's a way around it ... put this transcript out as far and wide as possible. If you have a blog, link to it and post excerpts. And put as many links to this as possible--Google hasn't completely diffused the Google bomb. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[speakword2004]

A nerve? The nerve!

[philiprosenthal]

I have physically waded along this whole water tunnel under old Jerusalem myself. The water is clean. There is no evidence that it every was used for sewage purposes. Such a use would have been daft and suicidal - as the city would then have been poisoning its own fresh water supply. People would have gotten sick immediately and then put a stop to it.

[40days40years]

Well it does sound like it was for fresh water delivery and not a sewer but after so much time how could you tell Philip?

[speakword2004]

40 read the historical facts. Lafoon's sermon has no biblical basis. The only place I could find it was in some 13th century kabbalist teachings.

[philiprosenthal]

40days
1) A sewage line is going to have lots of inlets for the toilets. The tunnel has only one inlet plus one well for drawing water from above.

2) No country in the world anywhere had waterborne sanitation at the time the tunnel was constructed. This only came about 600 years later. It wasn't invented yet. They had pit latrines.

3) The spring ends inside the city in a big pool. If it was for sewage why have that? Surely you want to get the water out as fast as possible because it would stink. But actually the water comes from outside to inside the city. It doesn't go from inside to outside.

It is a fresh water tunnel. The Bible also explains it that way. Laffoon is imposing C20 technology on 6th century BC world. Not valid.