WE need to patol Wiki

[maranatha1984]

Okay the EN people have control of the EN wikkipedia...now someone I suspect Jon Mosely is disputing the WIkki article on MCM- which in my mind is far to lenient to the cultic group that it was and removing external links that are unfavorable...we must patrol the Wikki on MCM

[blueboy96]

I'm on it already ... besides, I have a hunch that if this Fuller affair plays out like I hope it does, EN's credibility will be down to nothing.

In reading the EN article, though, it doesn't seem to be all that bad. Maybe if we put in some of the PROVEN stuff that isn't related to Maranatha (the houses, etc.) ... let's see them take that out.

Can't do it alone, though, guys ...

[osakadan]

I'm doing a bit on Maranatha right now.

How about a section on who the major MCM players were?

Anyone able to write me up a list with Ball, Broocks, Bonasso, Weiner plus positions?

(Message edited by osakadan on December 22, 2006)

[osakadan]

I would also like to expand the dating revelation section, anyone have quotes from firm foundations for me?

[osakadan]

The organization was one of the major players in the Christian right during the 1980s. (from wikipedia)

Was this actually true or did Weiner just like to think that?

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Dan,
Well they acted like it; but in essence it was a small well placed group on many campuses, and attempting to be world wide. If you look at the Wall Street Journal article at Ross site , you will find some helpful material. Good Hunting!!}

[maranatha1984]

Osaka- I, along with Matt can help with Phil we KNOW exactly WHERE and HOW he came along...do you want to shoot me an e-mail at...you in Matt

Maranathaoriginal@Yahoo.com

[osakadan]

Check your mailbox '84

[40days40years]

EN controls the content on Wikipedia about Every Nation now and one of the main goals was to remove the direct link to Ulyankees timeline from the Every_Nation Wiki site. For some reason that timeline showing the history of this thing really ticks these guys off. Now if you go to the Wiki Maranatha page the time line link for Maranatha/Every Nation is there but it will be interesting if people are trying to remove that time-line link. Control the info about the past and you can control the future type of thing.

How are folks trying to change the Maranatha Wiki site? anyone?

Anyway all EN members you should go to the Maranatha Wiki site to get to that time-line link which gives the history of Every Nation.

[40days40years]

Back by popular demand (http://www.geocities.com/ulyankee/) !

For our EN lurkers a must read, high quality info.

more (http://everynationexposed.blogspot.com/)

Is it possible for someone to get control of the Maranatha Wiki page? Because if they do that they will remove the above links from the Maranatha page, that is the danger. They already did it on the EN Wiki page.

(Message edited by 40days40years on December 23, 2006)

[maranatha1984]

Yes
Blue control MCM Wiki- the key to keeping control is not neutrality so much as to being able to "reference' external documentation for any statements that are made. The protest entered by Jon Mosely could lead to the page being controlled by well, by him.

Blue lost control of EN because of this and the page is now a highly SANITIZED VERSION OF THE EN page that offers NO links to MCM

[maranatha1984]

Blue being Blue Boy btw

[maranatha1984]

The external links had been removed to the timeline my blog etc. This can be done- and they will stay off unless the page is patrolled by us and owned by someone who understand MCM for what it is. EN would LIKE to control the MCM page- they would give anything to ERASE MCM from the pages of history!

[osakadan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champions_for_Christ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_Christian_Fellowship

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maranatha_Campus_Ministries

[ginger1]

How about Morning Star International ? Since EN already change their name. You can write a lot of things during MSI time.

[osakadan]

There is no page at the moment. If it is searched for on Wikipedia you are automatically taken to MSI.

I have been doing some other things on wiki for 6 months but don't know it so well. It would be difficult to argue for a seperate page.

If you have ideas for changes let me know.

[ginger1]

Is it possible to make a separate page ? Then put a link to EN ?
Even a link to Maranatha. At least people would be aware of its history.

[osakadan]

ok, I will try to make one. Problem is that it may just be removed unless I have enough of an argument of why there should be a seperate page and not just included in every nation.

[ginger1]

MSI has existed longer than EN.

[osakadan]

While Every Nation's links, or roots in Maranatha Campus Ministries are open to debate, Every Nation has found itself embroiled in other controversy. 2004/2005 saw complaints and a lawsuit from parents, at Hillsboro High School in Tennessee, that 'Victory Club' (associated to an Every Nation church, Bethel World Outreach Center) had hidden its true nature and that their daughters had been psychologically damaged by it. One is said to have suffered a nervous breakdown with the other attempting suicide. The student had been taking anti-depressant medication for a previous suicide attempt but discontinued the medication when a church staff member had told her that her relationship with God was strong enough that she no longer needed to take anti-depressive medication.[24]

I have addded this to the every nation wiki page. I was debating about it because of the sensitive nature. There was small part on the Maranatha page but nothing on Every Nation. Finally I decided it was ok, with the exclusion of names. Let me know if you disagree.

[maranatha1984]

IT will not stay up because the editorial control of the page has passed from Blue to an EN friendly editor...in order to gain control you will have to file a protest and demonstrate conclusively and factually WHY the page is biased on non nuetral

[ginger1]

I do not think you can add it on EN wiki page. Thats their domain, thats why I am suggesting if anybody can start a new wiki under the name of MSI.

EN has argued thats their name and they have the right to control it. And since MSI is no longer their name, I am assuming that we can put a lot of their history on MSI, then put a link to EN wiki.

[blueboy96]

I disagree--since MSI and EN are one and the same, it makes little sense to have two articles for the same one.

I'm in the midst of adding something on Laffoon's sermon to the article as well. It's critical, since it appears this was the "real" reason behind the name change from MSI.

[maranatha1984]

Blue: "real" reason behind the name change from MSI.

Tikie: Exactly Blue EXACTLY!!!!

[blueboy96]

I just remembered--the EN people have a conniption fit mostly over the links to Maranatha. But putting in the DOCUMENTED non-Maranatha controversy is another matter (e.g., Laffoon's fascist-oriented '04 sermon, and the Global Cafe). If the EN people delete it, their credibility goes "poof!"

[osakadan]

I added a quote box.

What am I saying tonight? The nations, the earth, are up for grabs. Up for grabs. God has bestowed a new name on us. Every Nation Churches and Ministries.
—Jim Laffoon , “To Reach and To Rule” MSI/EN World Conference[2]

[blueboy96]

Good one, Osaka ... now we need to figure out how to add in some of the more breathtaking parts of that sermon.

Shoot me an email at blueboyphillie@yahoo.com

[osakadan]

I would like to delete this, any objections? I feel it gives them to much kudos by linking them to 9/11

An example of a planted church is the church in New York City in the aftermath of the 9/11 tragedy known as Morning Star New York (MSNY). Acquired churches include places like Bethel Chapel in Nashville, founded and pastored by Bible teacher Ray McCollum, as well as Rick Shelton's church in Missouri. Another example is In Focus Church in Augusta, Georgia.

[dust]

Dan, that is strong! Do it!
I was there in the audience the day Lafoon gave that speech to reach and rule. I got sick. Forword and I looked at each other, we were both visibly upset, couldn't hide it. We looked around and everyone was CHEERING. I'm saying to Forword, "did we hear this right." This crowd is brainwashed, but this is not Christ. We were so "creeped" out. For us, it was close to the end.

But, why didn't we walk out right then and there? Well, we were feeling crazy by ouselves. Hadn't seen or heard of factnet yet.

And, we were sitting with thousands of people cheering EN on. Same conference that the Newsboys performed for! Lots of propaganda, and confusion.

[osakadan]

Do you mean I am going to have to read thru all that xxxx http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif?

shooting off an email now.

[osakadan]

Who has knowledge of the newsboys and morning star/en? And something that can be referenced so it can't be removed. Didn'T Broocks/EN manage or maybe release their records at one time?

[blueboy96]

There's still a link to "Our Daily Blog" at the Newsboys main site--about the only overt EN reference I can find.

And InPop Records lists the Newsboys on their "artists" page:

http://www.inpop.com/artists.html

InPop may not be officially a part of EN, but Broocks is on the board--along with Tony Boselli and Mark Brunell.

[j2theperson]

Would it be good idea to make pages for some of the individual leaders--for Rice, Phil, Laffoon, et al? None of them seem to have individual pages yet. Within their biographies you could mention their previous connection to Maranatha as well as some of the financial improprieties.

[blueboy96]

Working on a section about Laffoon's '04 sermon ... it really merits its own section. And since it's NOT related to the claims that EN is Maranatha, it's gonna look pretty funny for them to take it out. The only hard choices are deciding what to put in, and how to not make it look like I'm taking him out of context (the most likely charge the EN crowd will throw up).

[blueboy96]

I doubt it, J2. Only because for all intents and purposes, the story of MSI/EN is the story of Broocks. Sound familiar?

[osakadan]

Wikipedia has quite strong rules about biographical pages. Much easier to incorporate things into the other pages.

(Message edited by osakadan on December 26, 2006)

[ginger1]

Some of the people here tried to put something on EN wiki. I hope you guys are successful, because a lot of things were deleted by the EN people.

[genesis_truth]

How do you put stuff on Wikipedia? Isn't it controlled by an organisation?

[osakadan]

That is one of the good/bad things. Anyone can add,or delete anything. I added information about EVery Nation to the NZ high school pages last night but it has all been deleted this morning- just added again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Every_Nation

Go here and check the history and discussion buttons. You can see what goes on.

[maranatha1984]

DAn
it will not stand they control the page

[osakadan]

Quite likely but the problem was before that Blueboy was doing this on his own. From what I read I don't think they have control as such and that is why they have not had success in having the pages locked.

Arbitration has usually fell on EN's side but BB has been successful to some degree. Part of the problem is that he has put a lot of things up that are not referenced and are just speculation.

I have done this with some things I expect to be challenged but this is with a purpose in mind. Other things such as a quote from the American Family Association that En are a cult will have to stand.

There are a lot of changes, EN cannot just make a blanket change back to a version of 2 weeks ago as many of the entries are valid. In this way they will have to ask for mediation on many points. In all of this, many damning things such as the Victory Clubs will stay.

[osakadan]

The NZ HIgh School pages are another story. But I am using a strategy where I just revert to what I originally posted. After so many reverts it has to go to mediation are some of it will have to stand. Good thing is I am not in a battle with EN on these pages.

At a minimum, a few sentences will stay, linking to the Victory club lawsuits.

[maranatha1984]

Osaka:From what I read I don't think they have control as such and that is why they have not had success in having the pages locked.
Tikie: Not to belabor the point but Wikkis are never locked- but editorial rights and control are granted editors. Blue was in control of the page and could decide what stayed and what did not. We lost control in August (I mean those of us who want to show EN for what it is). Control went to, I cannot remember her name but she is the PR person for EN. She filed a complaint or whatever it is called and the WIkki people came in to adjudicate and it was decided by Wikki adminstrators to give control.

Here is how WIkki works
Admin is decentralized and adminstrators are picked- much like our very absent DAN here on FACT (DAN only shows up if you offer $).

The Admin for a section, in this case religions then polices (supposedly the sites). How does this work you might ask. Well it works because if someone posts something on Group A that person B disagrees with the file a challenge. Admin then investigates. It is like a land grab. Whoever is there first "owns" the page. BUT if it can be shown that the "owner" is biased, using non factual entries (not backed up by reputable third party references) someone can, in a WIKKI SORT of way "Sue" at the court of Wikki and plead for control.

This is what happened with EN. THe EN people sued and said "Blue's page is biased he is a disgruntled exer with an axe to grind" They pointed to his blog, pointed to the lack (what they percieved as) references (Ulys timeline was one). They argued that Ulys timeline was circumstantial and proved no link from MCM to EN, they said my Blog was an Amateur (Amatuer by the way is great for a lover of a thing).

End of story Wikki threw Blue out as Editor and installed a pro EN. Now the EN side must keep it "Nuetral" but the burden of proof is very hard otherwise.

This was what my original post signaled...Jon Mosely is protesting Blues handling of the MCM site. Someone removed our links. This is what started happening before we "lost" control of the EN site.

You can edit your heart out on EN but NONE of it will stand unless you are willing to go through the laborious task of protesting and it seems to me that they are keeping EN Page very innocuous. To win this is all they have to do. Make it appear safe.

[blueboy96]

Something I just thought should be on the MCM Wiki page--other instances of outrageous statements by EN's brass that are similar to statements Weiner made in his more Hitlerian moods.

All I can find so far that's verifiable is Laffoon's screed in '04. Anything else?

[blueboy96]

A few EN supporters did some tweaking to the EN article earlier--but they didn't bother to take out the section I added on Laffoon's screed. Checkmate!

[ginger1]

Blueboy, is it in Wiki page that said that the lawsuit was dismissed or thrown out ? because according to public record , its Dropped and it is sealed. Is it possible to correct that ?

[blueboy96]

Done already, Ginger ... surprised the EN people didn't catch it either. Another tacit admission?

[sunshinesaint]

Osakadan: can I email you privately?? Please let me know what address to email you at. Thanks

[osakadan]

Edit: just saw your email in another thread so will mail you my address Sunshine.

(Message edited by osakadan on January 06, 2007)

[maranatha1984]

Okay Blue and Dan you managed to manuever very well on the EN page. Nice work and keep it up!!!!!

[ulyankee]

I second that!

[ginger1]

Under affiliated organization, Can that include World Partner ? Strategic China Initiative and Frontline Partners ?

[ulyankee]

World Partners isn't exactly an organization but a fund raising initiative. Frontline Partners is the same (despite its being separately incorporated unlike World Partners) but is specifically affiliated with one church, Trinity Church in Dallas, not EN as a whole.

SCI is a different story - I would say that qualifies as an affiliated organization.

[osakadan]

Does anyone have a list of churches that have left EN? Might be nice to add this to wikipedia.

[genesis_truth]

Dan,

Nice work on the churches leaving EN. Have you had any issues since putting it up? I wonder how long it will stay, from what I understand, they can't really do much because it is quite clearly fact. Is that right?

[osakadan]

They made a change maybe about 10 days ago but blueboy reverted it back. I think they won't change the list of leaving churches because it is relevant and we can argue its inclusion. Especially considering they put up a list of member churches.

The long lists of churches leaving really highlights the problems to me. Should send up red flags to normal people.

[genesis_truth]

Definitely. Who changes things from their side do you think? Is it the leaders or just some zealous person in the church?

[osakadan]

Impossible to say really. But from lack of vigilance, I would say just a member.

I check in at least twice a day to see if there are changes.

[blueboy96]

Something else I thought should be there--I remember hearing that MorningStar Christian Church of Lawrence (formerly part of EN) was the homebase for the infamous K-State chapter. Any way that can be verified?

[maranatha1984]

Is it the leaders or just some zealous person in the church?

Tikie: It is their PR person you can look on the comments section for her name

[blueboy96]

She hasn't been active in awhile, though. And she has a lot more character than her bosses--she even admitted that what the Wrong-Waymakers did to me was wrong.

[ulyankee]

Blueboy, MSC Lawrence is, sort of. Unlike some of the other MCM chapters that maintained their original corporate charters, they dissolved the original corporation and reincorporated, back in late 93-early 94. But according to people who were involved at the time it was otherwise the same church/ministry.

[blueboy96]

I dunno, UL ... that may not be enough to stand up to a challenge. My hunch is that if I put that in, they'll delete it in a hurry. Osakadan, Tikie--your thoughts?

But AIO and AEO are another matter--they were founded predominantly (if not entirely) by Wrong-Waymakers, and at last check, former Wrong-Waymakers make up a majority of the board of both of them.

[blueboy96]

Our friend Thelma might be getting active again ... she created another archive for the discussion page on the EN Wiki article.

But I think we've checkmated her--she hasn't bothered to tweak any of the changes Osakadan and I made. We'll just have to wait and see.

[blueboy96]

I guess not--Thelma's done some wholesale deletions. O-Dan and I are trying to fight it--but any help you guys can give would be greatly appreciated.

[ulyankee]

Has she deleted sections that had citations?

I did notice that she disputed and tried to remove "To Reach and To Rule" as having "undue weight and not reputable."

Hmm, this is for sale in EN's online store, in the 2004 World Conference series. I have the ORIGINAL on CD (it seems only the DVD is available now (http://www.everynationstore.com/Detail.bok?no=29)). It's not an unofficial copy either but the ORIGINAL from EN, in their packaging and with their labeling. I transcribed it from the original, and included a citation to the original recording. This sermon was an official explanation by Every Nation's top prophetic leader why Morning Star was renamed Every Nation. I wonder how much more reputable it has to be to pass Ms. Bowlen's muster.

[blueboy96]

Your guess is as good as mine, UL--the most benign explanation I can think of is that Ms. Bowlen joined EN after '04 and doesn't know of the DVD's existence.

She's setting herself up to be reamed. Big-time reamed.

[ulyankee]

Benign or not, she needs to check her sources first imho before labeling something as "not reputable" in Wikipedia. I included a citation with the transcript so that anyone could see for themselves whether it's true or not. It's transcribed verbatim from the ORIGINAL I have in my possession. The same recording that anyone else could purchase for themselves from EN's website if they've got $120 to spend, or which Ms. Bowlen should be able to locate in the EN offices or in the church bookstore.

[genesis_truth]

To reach and rule has gone again as is the legal disputes

[ulyankee]

genesis_truth, To Reach and To Rule reveals that not one but now TWO of their public positions on their website are highly suspect. Especially this one (http://www.everynation.org/en/top/about-us/faqs/what-is-your-position-on-christian-dominion-andor-reformation-of-society.html).

This may be a big surprise to anyone who has gone through ENLI, the advanced ministry schools, or have attended conferences, and have been told that Every Nation has a mandate to take dominion of all spheres of society, including culture, government, military, etc. and that if they are faithful to this apostolic mandate, God will literally give them nations to rule.

I seem to remember that Rice Broocks may have written a book about the apostolic mandate. Wasn't it EVERY NATION in Our Generation: Recovering the Apostolic Mandate...?

Maybe that's gone by the wayside along with Jim Laffoon's A Divine Alliance.

[blueboy96]

All's not lost ... it could get back in once we demonstrate that are arguments are based on verifiable information. And we can.

Thelma won't be able to fight her way out of this one--like I said earlier, EN's so fixated on deflecting the Maranatha ties that they won't be able to do a heckuva lot about it.

For those who want to follow what's going on, check out the talk page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Every_Nation

[blueboy96]

Little update, guys ...

I suggested on the talk page that EN Productions either give permission for the audio or video of the conference--or at least Laffoon's speech--to be released. Or at least, they could post it on YouTube.

Their response so far? (sound of crickets chirping)

I can only conclude one of two things--either EN trying to goad us into breaking the law by putting the actual speech online, or they're just not interested in mediating the article in good faith. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that UL misheard it--that speech could do a lot to clear EN's name. So why aren't they releasing it.

But that's OK. Anyone who has a blog, copy that transcript and post it there. They wanna play hardball? Well, so can we.

[40days40years]

Good job blueboy thanks for all your hard work it seems like the sexy Thelma does not even want EN's main prophet to have his say in the To Reach and to Rule junk concerning the EN site on Wiki.

[blueboy96]

I just posted about that sermon in Talk2Action:

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/2/26/112619/091

[ulyankee]

Hmm, don't know as if I want to be considered the "intellectual leader of the EN refuseniks," lol. Just someone who is trying to speak the truth. But IMHO trying to hide or deny the existence or importance of "To Reach and to Rule" is not particularly honest, intellectually or otherwise.

[maranatha1984]

As i have said EN is a business pure and simple. They cannot release financial statements- it would expose them for what they are. Or perhaps they are a benign charitable organization with salaries in line with other mainline churches and financial streams controlled by an outside board and funneled by the local congregations. Perhaps not.
Regardless a release of financial statements would simply clear the air. Why can't these be released. I cannot believe it is because they are not organized enough (our 300 member congregational church manages to release quarterly statements that shows everything including the pastors salary and any additional gifts that he might have recieved (we replaced his 12 year old mini van with a brand new Volvo SUV this year through an "off line campaign" you should have seen the look on this humble man's face.

Okay EN- Steve Murell- you have made reforms -your roots are not with MCM- you are another mainstream church- so where are the financial statements?????

And although they make mistakes- they will not make the mistake that Bob W made- leave "crazy"teachings out in the open for others to see...or perhaps they are not crazy- perhaps they are the pure and simple gospel--- wheels within wheels

[blueboy96]

Thelma finally came out of hiding a few days ago--now she argues that to even state the allegations of the Hillsboro suit is misleading. Hellooooo, McFly! I have never, EVER, heard of a story involving a dropped case that doesn't mention the allegations. If I tried to write a story like that, my editor would ball it up and throw it back in my face.

She also strongly implies that the "To Reach and to Rule" sermon doesn't even exist, claiming it's "original research." Wikipedia has strict rules against introducing any kind of material that can't be attributed to a reliable source. And yet, UL was quoting from EN's OWN material that is still (as as I write this) being sold at the EN Store.

They've fallen right into the trap, as I see it. They're trying to scrub the page in order to keep out anything even the teensiest bit controversial about them, and turn Wikipedia into their own PR agency. In the name of the letter of Wikipedia's rules, they're violating the spirit of the rules. And in the process, they're violating the rules themselves by insisting THEIR view is the only legitimately neutral view.

They made their agenda even more blatant when some dude in New Zealand cut out the stuff about the related businesses. But O-Dan reverted it back.

Check out the talk page for some of the arguments--but be sure you're sitting down, they're just plain laughable:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Every_Nation

[osakadan]

Victory Christian Fellowship

There is a revert war going on here. They are trying to delete that they were part of Maranatha. Now someone has nominated the page for deletion. I am totally against this as it would hide their origins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_Christian_Fellowship

I especially ask that you weigh in on the discussion page. You do not need to be a member but it would add more weight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Victory_Christian_Fellowship

[xman3]

Well you won that round. The deletion request was withdrawn. The actual page seems controlled by you right now. It is definitely no PR tool in it's current state, but the info is accurate. I'm sure there'll be more exciting action to come as the MCM stuff doesn't look too good for themhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif as it is written.

[littlechamp]

I can't believe that they can't flippin back down on the reach and rule thing - I have got the DVD and the CD series and I have geard it. I was alos personally there and listened to him spout it - made me uncomfortable at the time.

We must be hitting them pretty close to the mark for them to get so riled up and freaked out about it being there. If they are so stressed out, why do they not remove it from their little bookshop???

The arguments sound stupid and desperate and they are totally clutching at straws! I ccanot wait for EN to come crashing down! It has caused me struggle and pain and to see them try to doctor what is on Wiki refkects like they were when I was in church with them - manipulating the facts in order to try and make them look good. What "christ-like" people!! Real good of them.

Seriously though - the wiki page does look good and it does not seem entirely flattering to them which is all the more better. They have too,lobg sought to take the glory of God upon themselves in order to make money, appear spiritual, and garner power. They need to be finished.

[xman3]

Welcome to the board (though I see you registered in Jan. so maybe you've posted before)littlechamp. It is pretty amazing that they are fighting that. You'ld think they'd look within and be true to the facts and let the chips fall where they may. I agree its very un-Christian to lie and manipulate facts.

If they're going to preach that stuff, they ought to just stand by it and let people decide if they want to join the cause or not instead of pretending they are something they are not. Of all that stuff, this is the least biased and most encyclopedic of all anyway as it is only negative if one views that ministry vision as bad thing. Some people are all for it, so why do they sweat it?

[osakadan]

I have to agree with you there xman. Some people will see the quote as a negative, others, a positive. Either Laffoon is a prophet who received the new name or not. They should stand by it. Trying to spin control the situation really shows EN for what they are.

[blueboy96]

It's not going to do them a lot of good, Littlechamp ... I've got a link to where they're selling it on their store saved on my hard drive, so I know it was there. I also check it periodically to see if they've brazened it out and deleted it.

I doubt they'd be that stupid--but then again, you've got their flack-in-chief asserting one minute that there's a problem with the sourcing, then implying it doesn't even exist in the next.

Littlechamp, just so you know, at least two other regular posters--Dust and Forword--were at that conference as well ... so now we've got at least THREE witnesses to what Jim LaLoon spewed. I can see them calling one person a liar, but three? They can't be that desperate.

Here's something else, O-Dan--if UL did misquote it, why are they so skittish about posting it on YouTube or letting us post it somewhere? Simple: they're trying to goad us into releasing it ourselves (and thus triggering a copyright infringement suit they'd win easily), and they're not the least bit interested in mediating that article in good faith.

[maranatha1984]

FACTNET is down as an external link on the MCM Wikkepedia Link

[osakadan]

If anyone has the Laffoon dvd I am willing to post the excerpt on youtube. There is a large possibility it is allowed under fair usage rules but at the end of the day sue me. The court system isn't quite the same in Japan.

fixed the link.

[40days40years]

Why are they denying the words that came out of Lafoons mouth? I was doing some cleaning a few weeks a go and came across some literature the Mack sent me about the NOLR and it kind of shocked me.

Most here believe one day Jesus will come back with the saints and angels in the clouds and set up his earthly rule. The hardcore of the NOLR believe that JESUS returning??? it's them. They believe the end time scriptures refer to a return of a corporate Christ (not our Jesus), a many membered man child who will reach and rule. This is not some esoteric 17th century philosophy that is nebulous, the hard core of the NOLR believe this junk and it appears that Lafoon has bought in to the theology. Hence the deletion of the words that were cheered at that conference. Anyway what the upper ups really believe is startling and shocking and they won't even allow it to be referred to on Wiki.

Guys that run EN, you aint Jesus, sorry. Nice house Jimbob;).

[40days40years]

I guess I should have said Timbob.

[blueboy96]

Don't risk it, O-Dan ... just let them stew in their own juices. Either they release it themselves, or they keep stonewalling and torpedo their credibility.

40Days, it's simple ... they've always tried to portray themselves as a run-of-the-mill charismatic group, and now they're doing it even more aggressively. But they won't be able to get away with it ... they may have been able to pull off this snowjob 20 years ago, but not now in the Internet age.

[ginger1]

Osakadan, thats a great idea to put that in youtube. What are they going to do, you are in Japan . Laws in Japan are different there than here.

[osakadan]

And for family reasons, other than a few suits and a computer, I don't legally own anything.

[40days40years]

Everything is in the cats names that is just like EN.

[osakadan]

Learnt something in my MCM days afterall http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[blueboy96]

I'm just afraid that they may try to pin it on one of us in the States. I'm not putting anything past them, Ginger. We've got them on the run so far ... dunno if it's worth the risk.

[osakadan]

How can they pin something on anyone? They would need to supeona records from youtube and if they were successful it would lead to an ip address at an internet cafe. And frankly, I don't care if it traces back to me.

[ginger1]

Blueboy96, currently Osakadan said he is in Japan. And he would want to put it in youtube, there is really not much investigation right there. EN want to trace it, then go ahead, to Japan. Its the same thing what EN is doing, they have set up the finances in the Philippines so that the US Goverment can't touch it, its overseas.
We are doing exactly what they are doing, let the foreigner do it. EN has to prove that its one of us, which they can't. Because it will just trace it there.
If I have the tape, I will send it personally FEDEX to Osakadan.

[dust]

Littlechamp, just so you know, at least two other regular posters--Dust and Forword--were at that conference as well ... so now we've got at least THREE witnesses to what Jim LaLoon spewed. I can see them calling one person a liar, but three? They can't be that desperate.


On one hand I finally feel vindicated that other people are as alarmed about this speech as I was when I heard it from Jim Lafoon's MOUTH to my EARS, and on the other hand, I am upset that they would try to cover this up.

This speech is quintessentially EVERY NATION, and it should haunt them going forward. This was a PIVOTAL KEY SPEECH at a world wide conference and was PURPOSEFUL.

By this point of Every Nation, they were extremely arrogant. Most of the speeches were unbearable, especially Peter Wagner. He sounded like one of the eccentrics that speaks at "health" conferences...the ones where people wear pyramids on their heads.

But, when Lafoon preached his REACH AND RULE, it's a moment I'll never forget. I felt like we were sitting with people that were "pods" not real, because they didn't have the same reaction we did...

[40days40years]

That was a pure NOLR speech. If EN does not renounce it they own it.

[blueboy96]

It's simple, Dust. They simply aren't used to playing with anything other than a deck they've loaded in their favor.

But now they've exposed their agenda on Wikipedia for all to see. News flash, EN ... this is the Internet age. You're not gonna be able to run and hide like cockroaches scurrying away when the lights come on. No matter how many times you try to keep it out of Wikipedia, that speech is going to dog you until the end of time.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi All Catching up,
I am home now, nice feeling.
About Jim's speech, I could barely listen to it, ; it was straight from Maranatha.

En apparently made Leo Lawson the scapegoat in the odd theology department. It is not true; they all, we all thought and taught these things, openly. As this speech was given openly.}

[blueboy96]

Here's Thelma's original objection to "To Reach and to Rule":

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Removed the “to reach and to rule” section for the following reasons:

This section is a transcript directly cut and pasted from FactNet which is not a reputable third party source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:EL#Links_normally_to_be_avoided).
It is also a very long transcript which is both un-encyclopedic and constitutes Undue Weight (see WP:Undue Weight).
Also, by selecting certain excerpts out of context from a single message by a single pastor in EN, Osakadan is trying to imply that EN embraces the doctrine of Dominion Theology. This is OR (see WP: OR) and is not true. EN’s position on Christian dominion is clearly stated on its website at: (http://www.everynation.org/en/top/about-us/faqs.html)<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Now, here's her next objection, almost a month later:

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

The issue is not whether or not EN should post the audio/video, the issue is it's un-encyclopedic and it's Ulyankee's Original Research (see WP: OR) to try to prove that EN subscribes to Dominion Theology - which we do not - and which we have already addressed.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

In other words ... within less than a month, Ms. Bowlen has gone from criticizing the way it was cited to implying it doesn't exist. This isn't a smoking gun, guys--this is a mushroom cloud.

(Message edited by blueboy96 on March 11, 2007)

[blueboy96]

Another charismatic/pentecostal cult is also engaged in a Wiki war, the New Testament Christian Church:

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/28756.html?1173325543

I was initially surprised that small-timers like NTCC and EN can devote this much time to scrubbing their image on Wikipedia. But then again, they've stayed under the radar for so long that they can get away with it--unlike Scientology and ICOC.

[ginger1]

Good reason why EN and Jim Lafoon needs to be put in Youtube. They will finally stop denying it.
Remember Steve Murrell ? He always got to have several hundreds of people left the church before he do anything. By that time the Spiritual abuse has gone so far, I was told one person committed suicide due to the abuses in his ministry.

It needs to be put in Youtube, so they have to learn to look at themselves. And Churches /People need to know .

By the way, even the person who committed suicide due to his pastor. That pastor is still EMPLOYED in his church.

[blueboy96]

I still don't know if that's the way to go, Ginger ... besides, Thelma hung herself already.

She blew this sermon off as the view of "a single pastor in EN." Um, Thelma? We're talking about a guy who has been one of the major leaders in MSI/EN for a decade (and is probably the third-ranking leader now). This isn't just a "single pastor."

They've backed themselves into a real corner here. Either they're getting ready to throw LaLoon under the bus (unlikely, since he's playing consigliere at Bethel), deny it in the face of overwhelming evidence, or they release that video themselves (or give permission for us to put it out). Either way, they're gonna have to take some medicine.

Wal-Mart tried to snow people with fake blogs, and they were blown out of the water. We can do the same ... I just think there's a way to do it by shaming them into releasing that video themselves. And if it's been edited out, we've got three witnesses to what really happened.

Tikie, put excerpts of this in your blog, and be sure to cite it as coming from EN. Spread it far and wide ... the more pressure on them, the better. They've already proven they can't handle playing with a fair deck.

(Message edited by blueboy96 on March 12, 2007)

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Blueboy: Tikie, put excerpts of this in your blog<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
What's up with your blog anyway, Tik? It's been like months since you last updated. Your public is getting anxious. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[osakadan]

A number of people have indicated with me privately that part&amp;s of Laffoon&amp;s speech should go onto youtube. Today, I received legal advice from a law professor here in Japan and he feels that is fine under fair usage rules.

Hopefully it will be up under my osakadan account within the next week. But hey Thelma, you know who I am anyway, I wrote to VCF as to why you are trying to deny your links to Maranatha, and still no response.

Undue weight - bullcrap. Your (ahem) prophet gave your members the reason why you changed the name to EN. If God gave you the name you should be proud. Why do you shy away from it now?

[jesusisawesome]

J2, Tikie still has plans to continue. He has been caught up with work.

[ulyankee]

o-dan, I so find it hard to believe that VCF could deny their links to Maranatha since that was founded as a Maranatha church plant in the mid 80s and its beginnings were described in great detail in several official and semi-official EN websites and publications, including Rice Broocks' book, Every Nation in Our Generation. The relevant excerpts were even up on EN's site for a while.

[maranatha1984]

J2: what up with the blog/

Tikie; Kind of pressed- athough I have been decorating it- with new photos and doing some editing.
I have four helpers on the next three and final parts- and they are swamped and I am swamped- but I do plan on brining it home- and have put into motion some e-mails I think will help.

Thanks for the interest-J2

Blue- count on it...

[blueboy96]

Guess they're more desperate than we thought, UL. Anna Freud did say that denial is a sign of an immature mind. Oh, wait ... they're supposedly VERY spiritually mature, since they're the mind of Christ. Silly us ... God's ways aren't our ways.

[anti_fascist]

Interesting that EN is advertising the presence of Ron Luce at their July Leadership conference.

Now, for a group that claims that it doesn't adhere to Dominion Theology, associating with Ron Luce Ministries does appear strange.
Maybe you should mention this to dearest Ms Thelma?

[blueboy96]

I did and a bunch of other things UL and I dug up linking them to dominion theology--including occasions where King Rice, King Steve and King Brett DISCUSSED it at EN conferences.

No response so far ... though I did notice that when a rank-and-file ENer tried to make some edits (which O-dan reverted back), she didn't touch the Laffoon quote. Telling, I think.

[40days40years]

Well blueboy they may like the dominion talk but these guys are running out of time like all of the middle aged folks here. They are having problems excercising dominion over Wiki let alone this place and we should be like shooting fish in a barrel to them (considering our spiritual state) if their theology is correct. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif.

[blueboy96]

Well, O-dan and I did some heavy-duty surgery to the EN Wiki over the weekend ... we'll have to wait and see if Thelma comes out of hiding. We've cited everything we could ... let's see them whine now.

It's pretty telling that some pro-EN editors have cut some stuff out, but left the Laffoon quote and some other stuff that Thelma cut out untouched. Perhaps we're knocking a few scales off the eyes ...

[ulyankee]

Just found this over on the Wikipedia Help Desk - it was posted on 14 March 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2007_March_14#Two_articles_with_same_name):

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

What if you want to add some information to an existing entry? I see that Every Nation Ministries is taking a lot of criticism, and I can only add to that. They are not clear on their doctrinal beliefs, and I wanted to add some information about a pastor who was recently fired for his beliefs.

This will further illustrate that Every nation ministries is not really distancing themselves from Maranatha, or from the Shepherding movement, but still have grave issues doctrinally.

Thank you<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

(Message edited by ulyankee on March 21, 2007)

[blueboy96]

Wikipedia has a sister site for quotations called Wikiquote.

I started a page for EN:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Every_Nation

Add anything if you want--but make sure it's sourced. Methinks the pro-EN crowd will add some as well ... the cyberworld can look at both and judge for itself.

[blueboy96]

O-dan's info on the mortgage loans Malachi made to Broocks and Bonasso got taken out ... apparently there's a concern that due to the way it was sourced, it could border on a privacy violation.

Like Ginger mentioned earlier, Wikipedia has very strict rules regarding info on living people. Dates to when somebody actually got libeled in his own article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigenthaler_controversy

I would think that since the issue is with the sourcing rather than the content, Guidestar would be a reliable source ... let's hope ...

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Blueboy,

On the mortgages, those details are commonly public record.I hope this helps.}

[maranatha1984]

Not to tip our hand but we have a lot of work going on on the ole blog that will start nailing some of this down from folks who were at the core from the beginning to 2004-05.

Four folks helping me out here- lots of writing and phone calls etc- it is taking much longer than I anticipated- perhaps in the next three weeks will have two more installments up that will take us right into the heart of EN~MSI...standby and say a prayer that it will actually happen