Ted Haggardbs bspiritual restorationb

[frankenchrist]

Well, I have all kinds of acusations hurled at me.

Thank you Sameo for pointing out my sense of humor, I do try to go at these divisive issues with a side order of laughter even though it may seem harsh at times.

I don't hate xtianity, though I do hate the stupidity and bigotry that it so often leads to. I do not hate god, unicorns, jesus, Fred Flintstone or any other fictional character.

Now we are on to the next page in Ted Haggard's little drama. Dobson's team of good 'ol boys fixing the guy after he had to go over to the group W bench where they put you if you may not be moral enough to run a maga-church, condemn people to hell, spout bigoted insults at people, and beg for money after being a meth-snorting homosexual.

Here is what I really don't get. This is a guy who believed that same-sex attraction is an abomination and that the antidote to that behavior is a good dose of fundamentalist xtianity. Now this is a man whose entire life revolved around fund. xtianity and he was performong this 'immoral' behavior on the side. So they intend to 'cure' him of that habit by giving him a bigger dose of fundieness. I mean, come on, the guy was swimming in it. How fundie can a person possibly get?

What I really wonder about is, are there people out there who are so immersed in this belief system that they actually fail to see the insanity of this? It's mind-boggling.

Then I look at the brief and evasive descriptions of the Dobson team's 'restoration' proccess that is provided by the news. Looks really creepy and sadistic. As much as I think Hagg is a piece of crap I could not wish that kind of torture on anyone.

Actually these ex-gay scams have been proven to be very damaging to people.

[lablady2]

frankenchrist: welcome to the Maranatha/EN board. I've read some of your posts and while I certainly don't agree with everything you say, I respect your right to your opinion. But, hey, I'm a former Christian who converted to Judaism, so there are a number of posters here who would probably put your chances at entering the pearly gates way above mine.

Keep posting.

[matt_hatter]

I promise never to refer to your jewish-ness or those funny looking bolts sticking out of franky's neck. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[frankenchrist]

Hi LL,

I'm not sure why converting to Judaism, the mother religion of xtianity would make you worse than someone who doesn't believe in any supernatural entities at all. Why is that worse? I would think that you and I would be equally condemned.

Or are there different levels of hell? What level of badness is a non-believer, but otherwise moral guy? As I understand it to blaspheme the hokey spirit is the one thing that even Jesus will not forgive. So everyone is fair game for heaven as long as the consider Jesus to be the blah, blah, blah -- unless they blaspheme the holy spit. Then they have no chance of entering the place where they put you if you are a true believer in the blah, blah, blah.

So, since I have no desire to go to heaven -- I blaspheme the hokey spit every day.

[lablady2]

franken: methinks you have a religious background, no?

Well, if you believe that Jesus Christ is the only way, I would be crap outta luck. And, yes, there are some New Testament scriptures that say something like "if you know the truth and reject the truth it's worse than never knowing" etc, which may mean that there are different levels of hell, which would mean that you may be roasting your Smores a floor or two above me.

[lablady2]

matt: You know I don't mind if you refer to my Jewishness. You've never been anything but kind.
Now, regarding the bolts in FC's neck - I feel a kinship, having had nuts and bolts in my leg. Besides, wouldn't he fall under the Americans with Disabilities Act?

[matt_hatter]

haha I am being sarcastic, I have had plenty of fun talking about you having a show with Jackie Mason. Yea, poor old Frankie, the real one in Mel Brooks movie, he got an "Abby- Normal" brain. I think he would qualify.

[frankenchrist]

Religious background -- not really. Parents were Unitarians, I went to church seldom and never really internalized it. The Unitarian-Universalist is like 'religion-lite' or, as it has been described, "a place for intellectuals to play church."
I have been doing some independent study, ex-cult members fascinate me. Most of what I know about the Bible comes from ex-christians.

I am aware of that bit about those who reject the truth after having it. I love s'mores. Personally, I find that ex-members of a group tend to have a more accurate picture than members (not always).

My only disablities are in my left hand - limited movement and my hearing is a bit dull. Neither is enough to qualify as disabled.

[lablady2]

matt: Young Frankenstein is one of my favorite movies. Love Mel Brooks anything and Monty Python anything. Saw a movie yesterday that was hilarious - Hebrew Hammer. Hebrew Hammer is like a Jewish Shaft and he hangs out in the "chood." Gotta find a copy because it may join National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation as one of my family holiday movies.

Frank: sorry to hear about your hand. Bummer. I have a slightly gimp right leg. No fun.

[lablady2]

I don't mind if anyone pokes fun at me for being Jewish, and I really don't mind if anyone thinks I'm going to hell. The only thing I really mind is someone telling me I don't have the right to go to hell if I want to. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[wildwood_]

I don't want to poke fun at you for being Jewish! I want you to hang around long enough to learn of your worship and the reverence of the Torah. And I'd like to hear how your Father is doing these days...comfortable as possible I hope & how you are with the stress. I've been praying. Although, from time to time, would it be all right if I said.."Lablady.I'd really prefer for you not to go to Hell? It's Hot There...Worse than Kentucky in August I hear"...feel free to tell me to go there for doing so! I will support fully your right to go....although there's something oddly wrong with the whole paragraph...almost like assisting someone in an unhealthy act...except you feel obviously that your health is being restored...so I'll try to leave my nose out of it and let the Lord Love You as He sees you.

We need COFFEE, A Table, and Pastries so we can discuss these issues like Ladies; Barring that...I have no objection to going to a bar, picking up Sameo on the way and discussing life there. Although some sober person must drive me home! Hmmm, Although a review of this thread...having a "Frankencrist" or a "MadHatter" as a designated driver seems a bit...like it would be an interesting road trip.... Right, I'll call the National Guard.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[pilgrim]

Hi lablady2,

We both agree that cult leaders are not real Christians, but why don't you believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah?

Why don't you believe that Jesus Christ died for yours and my sins so we could be forgiven?

Why don't you believe that Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life?

Finally why don't you want to go to heaven? Are you afraid of finding your ex-Maranatha leaders there and see then forcing you to have more deliverance sessions? I would not worry about that lablady I believe that unrepentant pharisees will be the last ones to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Remember that I will continue to pray for you and I want the best for you. I need prayers as well!

Blessings
pilgrim

[pilgrim]

Lablady,

When I said that, I believe that unrepentant pharisees will be the last ones to enter the kingdom of heaven, I meant that is it is easier for anyone else to repent and enter the kingdom of heaven by grace than for a pharisee to repent and enter God's kingdom.

Lablady, I just pray that we can still be friends after my latest message. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/talker.gif

[lablady2]

Pilgrim, I appreciate your concern and I mean that. The reasons why I chose to convert to Judaism are far too numerous to discuss on this forum. I have a lot of respect for true Christianity and true Christians but, after many tears and much struggle, I found that I am better able to live and express my faith in a different way.

Of course we can be friends! I have lots of friends from lots of different backgrounds. The only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance, i.e. stating that I don't have a right to believe as I believe.

Wild: KY is perfect training ground for hell. Add in a divorce and raising a few teenagers. Watch for my new book: "Hell for Dummies."

[matt_hatter]

frankie: I have been doing some independent study, ex-cult members fascinate me. Most of what I know about the Bible comes from ex-christians.

You know, frankie, I gave you a pass for your tirades against people of faith because I thought you were probably one who had been burned by the religion of man, but the above statement changes everything. Independent study..yeah right, while you pour salt in people's wounds.

I now see you as a small pathetic creature who seems to enjoy beating up on people who have been wounded. What a cowardly bully. Your silly plays on words never bothered me, as I have come to grips with my faith long ago, (as literary agents, things like "hokey bible" are rather stupid and childish BTW)

You religion of secular humanism worships man. Your cruelty to people of faith, who despite the fact that they have been burned by religion continue to seek the Creator, makes me conclude that you don't even understand the basic need to be kind to others.

Jesus asked an all important question that we all must answer: "Who do you say that I am?" We do have this in common frankie, we have both answered this question with different conclusions. My conclusion tells me you are a fool, as the fool has said in his heart, "There is no God."

Neither Haggard, Maranatha, EN, or YOU affect my faith in God. Enjoy your cruel game, even a decent humanist wouldn't do what you are doing. }

[lablady2]

Interesting post, Matt. I, too, thought Frank was someone who had probably been burned/hurt by some religious experience.

Frank, I started to suggest earlier that you at least read the New Testament (then I got carried away tickling krems on another thread). If I were going to make an argument for or against anything, I would go to the source for my information, not to Christians, and particularly not to Christians who are in a period of recovery from hurt and disappointment. I've made this suggestion to fellow Jews who ask about scriptures or ideas they think are in the NT: read it for yourself.

As far as a belief in God, I believe with all my heart. Following my cult experience, I wasn't sure I did believe anymore. It wasn't until I got into college and starting studying anatomy and physiology that my belief was confirmed. I've kept my old A&P book - it was the "bible" God used to melt my heart. Every breath we take is a miracle. However, I certainly can't legislate belief for anyone else; that's a journey each individual has to make. I personally believe you must be on that journey. Why else would you be hanging out here when there are so many other places to hang that have nothing to do with the God you say you don't believe in? My son struggles with belief in God (although it doesn't sound as though you are struggling) and my only advice to him is to remain open. It is God's inclination to find us because He loves us so much.

[mdillon]

I found that I am better able to live and express my faith in a different way.


lablady you were cast out of factnet but you have come back seven times worse or better depending which side of tolerance one is on.

i would request in your new book that you would leave me an appendix, I promise, no pictures of riceypoo.

dilly

[matt_hatter]

LL: "Why else would you be hanging out here when there are so many other places to hang that have nothing to do with the God you say you don't believe in?"

I would hope he was on a journey also LL, but his caustic words lead me to another conclusion. He was the kid who liked to poke frogs with pointed sticks to watch them suffer. My question also, what is the world would someone who has no historic commonality doing here? Must be a lonely life frank. Oh I forgot, we are a case study. How creepy.

[miltietoast]

hmmm

[robert_unknown]

... i thought we all agreed on ignoring FrankenStalin?

[sameo]

I find it interesting that Lab speaks more truth and see's the heart of things more clearly than those who have been unkind to her here for her religious beliefs. She reminds me more of the Jesus I believe in-how is that possible? ;-)

Franky, 'the face only a mother can love...' and i do. You are being a little brat..hehe badd franky. But when you were posting about your parents and you growing up in the Unitarian church, etc. I saw a glimpse of you. I appreciate you telling us some personal stuff about yourself.

I guess I'll find myself in hell too since befriending the anti-christ and a jew. I'll be on the lowest level for sure...since I'm a christian and I know better. But I freakin' love s'mores. I'm hoping for some doughboy's on a stick too, dilly--and if I'm really lucky we'll have pigs in a blanket.

I am not advocating anyone being deliberately cruel to people. I didn't see frank begin to be directly cruel to people on the post until they attacked him. HE WAS however cruel towards Haggard, and other leaders. That showed me he didn't approve of those guys taking advantage of the people under their leadership. But that's just how I saw it....i could be very deceived. But for some reason...unbeknownst to me, I don't see franky as the real threat. Again, I've grown accustomed to being around sharp tongued kids...maybe I'm immuned to it? or have learned to see past it? god help me, but i still like franky.

[lablady2]

matt: Frank may be the mirror image of Moseley.

Factnet draws weirdos like a magnet, me included in that bunch. Sometimes people like to poke with sticks to be hurtful, sometimes they like to poke with sticks to test a response, to see if people are what they say they are. In either case, it's a poor form of communication, and I'm not always up for a test, either. Life is test enough on most days.

I don't know where Frank is coming from, so I can't really draw a conclusion... yet. To be honest, he sounds like me the first year after I left MCM. I lived to inflict hurt as I had been hurt, and if this board had existed then, I would have been banned for life.

Just a couple of things I know, Frank: if you dish it out, be prepared to take it (yeah, even from me. The Christians will probably cut you more slack, I promise. Jews don't believe in turning the other cheek). And, Frank, God likes a challenge. Be keerful - He may turn you into a project.

[lablady2]

Sameo, your goodness is making me verklempt.

Maybe it's a mother thing. My kids did the most outrageous things in their teens, but when I went to the police station to bail them out (hehe), I would still see a four year old with a Kool Aid moustache. Doesn't mean I didn't lower the boom, but I never gave up. Paid off.

[matt_hatter]

To all: I was the first to advocate ignoring this person, however, patronizing folks because he finds ex cult members "fascinating" results in a reaction from me...so he gets a pass on slamming everything that is good to me? Don't think so.

Why is it any different than others slamming LL for her faith; we were wrong not to call bullspit on that, so I am calling it now. And I have had my say, so goodbye.

[lablady2]

matt: I guess the one difference I see with Frank is that he doesn't claim to be a Christian, a Jew or a person of faith. If anything, he's made it very clear that he isn't those things. So, I don't find his behavior inconsistent with his beliefs or lack thereof. I have more trouble with people who claim to have a certain set of beliefs that call for a certain set of behaviors but they don't live by them while expecting everyone else to.

For me, that doesn't mean you have to tolerate Frank's insensitivity or give him a pass. I'm not offended if you respond to him out of the sincerity of your heart. I think anyone who has been here very long knows how good your heart is.

I hope I haven't offended you, matt, in any way. That wasn't my intention and that would make me sad.

[pilgrim]

lablady2,

You wrote, I promise. Jews don't believe in turning the other cheek.

Now I understand why you did become a jew. You want to be absolutely sure that your ex-Maranatha leaders are not able to hurt your other chick as well!!!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

Did you really become a jew? I think that you still have a christian heart.

You also said, God likes a challenge. Be keerful - He may turn you into a project.
And... you might become a lovely messianic jew and maybe you already are one! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif


Thank you for your contribution to this board.

Blessings
pilgrim

[lablady2]

lablady you were cast out of factnet but you have come back seven times worse or better depending which side of tolerance one is on.

Seven times worse no matter which side of the argument you take. That's what a little rest and a steroid shot will do for ya.

[mdillon]

So, I don't find his behavior inconsistent with his beliefs or lack thereof

labby has a point, mattie, i'm just sayin....hey, franky doin a case study on us? mattie, think about it, we gotta be blowin' the usual stats to pieces. maybe sameo just can't pass up a stray dog.

dilly

[lablady2]

pilgrim: You are too funny! I am God's little lifelong project. Yes, I really did become a Jew (two years of study, 7 months of bimontly 200 mile trips to see a rabbi, a meeting with a beit din, topped off with a trip to the mikveh).

I think (I hope and I pray) that the "Christian" heart that you see is the heart that those who love God have in common. Maybe that's why I don't seem so different. I see a lot of people here who love God and they aren't Jews.

[matt_hatter]

LL, neither you nor anyone else has offended me. Frankly, frankie doesn't offend me. It is the souls who are in here that have tender hearts, those still smarting from the cruelty of man made religion who I am concerned for, real men and women who have not abandoned their love for God despite the hurt they have endured. I think some of us old timers might have forgotten the hurts from those early years...

My redneck side would like to smack this sumbitch into next week; dilly is right, he would definitely have a new chapter for his case study after an hour with me. And don't give me any sheeot about "xtian love" franky, I am what you call a calloused believer. Matt the redneck (thank God he is under control, sorta) would whip your azz and ask for forgiveness later.

Here's an idea, go take your enlightened ideas to some islamo-facist web site with your silly-azz plays on words and see how fast they find your ISP address and hang your pseudo-intellectual buttocks from a bridge.

Yea, I'm pizzed.

[frankenchrist]

Was it something I wrote?

[frankenchrist]

Funny thing is Matt, I'm a bit of a redneck myself. You and I should get together and go hunting. I don't toe the liberal line completely. Gun control is one of the things that I can't abide with. (you can beat someone to death with a chair -- should we have 'chair-control' too?) I believe in the rights of the individual and disdain collectivism. I guess that's the problem I have with religious organizations. I would agree that Muslims are the most narrow-minded, bigoted, violent groups out there. But all in all, scince is a way of explaining things, not mythology, regardless of what the mythology is.

There is no such thing as god, that is a fact, not an opinion. I don't know if Jesus was real or fictional but I suspect that he was just made up. Evolution is a scientific fact, creationism or ID are loony. People have the right to reproduce or not that is not something that can be legislated. The rapture, ot the second comming is never going to happen, that is a fact, not an opinion. The Bible may contain some historical accounts but overall it is fiction -- another fact. Belief in god is not necessary for a moral life -- fact.

I'm kinda like Charlie Daniels;

People say I'm no-good,
And crazy as a loon.
I get stoned in the morning,
I get drunk in the afternoon.
Kinda like my old blue tick hound,
I like to lay around in the shade,
An', I ain't got no money,
But I damn sure got it made.

'Cos I ain't askin' nobody for nothin',
If I can't get it on my own.
If you don't like the way I'm livin',
You just leave this long-haired country boy alone.

Preacher man talkin' on the TV,
He's a-puttin' down the rock 'n' roll.
He wants me to send a donation,'Cos he's worried about my soul.
He said: "Jesus walked on the water,"And I know that is true,
But sometimes I think that preacher man,
Would like to do a little walkin', too.

But I ain't askin' nobody for nothin',
If I can't get it on my own.
You don't like the way I'm livin',
You just leave this long-haired country boy alone.

A poor girl wants to marry, And a rich girl wants to flirt.
A rich man goes to college,And a poor man goes to work.
A drunkard wants another drink of wine,And a politician wants a vote.
I don't want much of nothin' at all,But I will take another toke.

'Cos I ain't askin' nobody for nothin',If I can't get it on my own.
If you don't like the way I'm livin',
You just leave this long-haired country boy alone.

[pilgrim]

Franken,

You wrote: The rapture, ot the second comming is never going to happen.

I believe that Jesus Christ will come back but not before the tribulation. He will come back near the end or at the end of the tribulation.

Before Jesus comes back the frankenchrist(antichrist) will come.

Everyone will be forced to have a mark( perhaps a microchip implanted)in the right hand or forehead in order to be able to buy or sell.

Look at the following website:


http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,61357,00.html (http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0%2C1282%2C61357%2C00.html)

Many Christians are not even aware that the technology is there to fulfill this prophesy. They wrongly believe in the pretribulation rapture. i.e they think that they will be taken up before the antichrist comes and before the tribulation. They think that the Mark of the Beast will only affect the rebellious people who are left behind after the rapture.

[matt_hatter]

I'm kinda like Charlie Daniels
You just leave this long-haired country boy alone.

If you were anything like the long haired country boy, you would not be drawing all this attention to yourself. That boy wants to be left alone, you crave attention, and have to go find a web site with vulnerable people on it and insult them.

You and I would not be hunting together. My folk's farm is God's country, and I wouldn't want to pollute it with your sorry but-tocks.

[wildwood_]

Frankencrist, you said:"There is no such thing as god, that is a fact, not an opinion. I don't know if Jesus was real or fictional but I suspect that he was just made up."

Me: ! LOL, Well...when you meet Him, you'll have to tell Him that...If you aren't too busy being happy to have found out you were wrong. I'm hoping for a meeting this side of Eternity for you...yes, I know you think I'm a bit looney,sadly deceived, etc...no matter... There's an old country hymn that says it rather well for my heart <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I know not why God’s wondrous grace
To me He hath made known,
Nor why, unworthy, Christ in love
Redeemed me for His own.

Refrain

But I know Whom I have believèd,
And am persuaded that He is able
To keep that which I’ve committed
Unto Him against that day.

I know not how this saving faith
To me He did impart,
Nor how believing in His Word
Wrought peace within my heart.

Refrain<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I will continue to pray for you and not "at" you...although you definitely try to provoke the "at you"...starting with your name choice...a definite conversation starter...so you must want a dialog with Believers...possibly for lab experiments http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif...So, I usually just pray &amp; read on because I do believe you believe what you say...and words change no one--Just tangled threads if not sown or sewn with purpose...I believe the Love of God does change people...even you, even me.

But, Charlie Daniels...and Red Neck...hmmm, you may not be exactly like Charlie Daniels...but I bet he'd like to have a talk with you,too. He might even give you tickets for a front row seat when his band starts this song he wrote...I hope you'd go...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

On a clear night, many many years ago
Two weary strangers moving slow
Were looking for a place to stay
But there was no place
Though they traveled many miles
So Mary being great with Child
Lay down on the sweet smelling hay.
Then a bright light fell from heaven
As a special star shone bright
And three wise men from a foreign land
Came to worship him that night
And in the clear night you could hear the angels sing
Praises to the newborn King
Jesus is the light of the world.

And the angels heralding the Holy Birth
Were singing Peace to men on Earth
Unto you is born a Son
And the shepherds
Though they had their flocks to tend
Journeyed unto Bethlehem
To behold the Holy One

And then the Boy grew up to be a Man
Come to set the captives free
Come to heal the sick and raise the dead
And to cause the blind to see
And the best part is even though
He's gone away
He'll be coming back someday
Jesus is the Light of the world.

And the best part is even though
He's gone away
He'll be coming back someday
Jesus is the Light of the world.

Jesus is the Light of the world.

Jesus

is the Light

of the world.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

And if by chance, Charlie asks you to go hunting...before you agree...you might want to make sure he hasn't seen all your posts... He may want clarification and then place you in a situation that results in edification... Then again, just go, have a nice trip; post when you get back and let us know how it all went...maybe I'll pray for Charlie, too.

[matt_hatter]

You are much nicer than me WW, Sameo, LL, et al. But you are Momma's. Me and Charlie we ain't so sweet.

[wisedove]

Matt
I'm a momma, and I am holding my tongue "FOR now" on this one.

[miltietoast]

gun control is using both hands

[wildwood_]

Hey Hatter...I think your Momma raised you well! But You are Your Daddy's Son, too! I'm sure Heavenly &amp; Earthly both proudly say "That's My Boy!

Possible quote from George Orwell or a mix of Kipling &amp; Orwell's thinking: And an absolute quote from something called the Mudville Gazette:

"Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

I'm sleeping a lot better since stumbling onto the board and meeting a rather strange, unlikely but definitely gallant loving Southern Knights... (although the concept is "Universal" and not exclusively "Regional" and there are male &amp; female "Knights"). You know darn well if you saw Frankencrist on the side of the road with a flat tire...you'd at least call a tow truck; If you found him with an accidental arrow wound during deer season...you'd drag him on out of the woods, telling him no big deal all the way (and not even charge for it)...But if hurtful words began to fly again towards the Sheep (and I am such a fuzzy headed lamb sometimes myself) You'd be &amp; Post...EXACTLY as you have! Wonderfully. And that dear Brother in the Lord, is standing up for Jesus &amp; being a Man of God. We Thank You!

I bid "Aloha" to this thread which actually means both Hello &amp; Good-bye "Hugs"....I'm leaning towards the "Good-Bye"...but the wind changes...and if a Kona wind blows again....http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[matt_hatter]

Heck, bottom line, I would probably teach ol frankie how to put a hole in a hole in a hole in the target with my .357 Smith and Wesson. Pop had us shootin' like the Clampetts at puberty.

Call a tow truck? I'd just change the tire. Got every tool and trinket known to man in the tool box in my truck. See frankie, I am really a decent xtian. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[miltietoast]

There is no such thing as god, that is a fact, not an opinion
frankie are you saying that absolutely?
Frankie our brains evolved faster than we use them(excess capacity)You should try using yours. It would make your momma (sameo) happy.
Evolution of living things is biologically impossible--now there is an interesting FACT.As we continue to unlock layers of the "simple cell"LMAO we see the next layer is more complex than the last. Promease (a cell spellchecker does not allow a cell to do anything but reproduce itself---bummer info for evolutionists--also hard to find definition of promease in most biology books.Why do these psuedo intellectual's lie against the truth and try to suppress truth?Life is programmed to reproduce itself and only itself. Sometimes even promease makes a mistake called a mutation this is always (FACT) caused by missing info in the cell or damaged info, never new information to evolve.
You are like the little flea on the big dog screaming ,"It is a fact. there is no dog!" Open your eyes and brains,God is too big for your little dishonest world. Fortunate for you God does not wear a flea collar but he may get the hankerin to scratch!

[matt_hatter]

You are like the little flea on the big dog screaming ,"It is a fact. there is no dog!"

Darn it Miltie, this was good. I have a friend who is a dyslexic atheist who is convinced that there is no Dog.

[40days40years]

O.K since I have been alluded to hear multiple times? I will respond (yeah I know I am not all that important, blah, blah, blah). First off I respect freedom of choice but if the wrong choice is made don't expect me to be happy about it even if it does not effect me directly. Hey it is in the genes I am sensitive and emotional but do a very good job hiding it in the real world.

This board was partially created to talk about MCM/MSI/EN and discuss stuff, particularly the idea of reform or destroy? It is also a place to vent. The most important question that this whole movement revolves around is what do we do with this man called Jesus Christ of Nazareth. If your a 14 year old kid and you mock Jesus? water off a ducks back but if you know him a long time and are happy to tell him syonara? Well things change then. If someone does that and that is fine? - you can kiss this board from ever reaching anyone in EN and many of the guys running this thing who are former Maranatha leaders. That is kind of the way it is and most of you here know it. Talk about stuff like that and I will transform from a mild manner slacker into a twitching Bob Martin clone, God bless you BM. I apologize for being a jerk at times but it is what it is I guess I am not as spritually accepting of somethings and I don't aspire to be that way.

Frank can talk about evolution all day long, almost all mutations kill, genetic mistakes are usually weeded out during the mating process. A guppy you can buy at a store for a dime is 1000 times more complicated then Franks computer and the power system and the power plants and infrastructure that was made by intelligent men that allows Frank to post. Computer networks are a joke compared to the smallest creatures out there. And this thing is suppose to have been assembled by random chance? Hey let me take your car a part and put it in a BIG box and shake it for 10000000000000 trillion years and see if it puts itself back together again.

mdillon I will not be tolerant of Frank referring to the Holy Spirit as the Hokey Spirit.
Frank refers to the Holy Spirit in this way because he has never had a visitation from him. Frank came from a spiritually dead background. Why don't we all pray that he has a visitation and that the Holy Spirit will forgive him because he does not know what he does.

Ohh and Matt Hatter and friends you did not really call me out on anything, if you remember it was a bar fight and I told all of you, come on over.

[40days40years]

Ofcourse then you smart alecks would say, we did kick your blank. That may be true but lets keep the records accurate on these great exploits. We will start off small, next thing you know I will be creating planets bigger then Nasso, your best childhood bud. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[robert_unknown]

"There is no such thing as god, that is a fact, not an opinion."

come on frankobollo. this statement is a contradiction in itself. how can you say it is a fact?

Gods nature is transcendent, and science cannot proof his beeing or not beeing. so it remains a philosophical question and not a scientifical question. science was never ment to proof/ unproof God or other spiritual things. the aim of science always was and is to proof nature/ creation.

so it remains a philosophical question.

to come from a scientifical point of view and say "there is no God" is bull****.

but i guess you know this all, and say what you say to provoke a reaction here.

[robert_unknown]

not to forget that modern science is also only based on philosophical foundations. materialism is an unproofen philosophy, and not a "fact"...

[40days40years]

You know Phil Bonasso is the gasoline that keeps this baby burning. A gift that keep giving and giving. Fuel for the fire. I can't imagine why he would not post here? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif I would be all over this place rebuking everybody. Either he is a super wuss or that EN paycheck is just to damn awesome.

[40days40years]

Steve Murrell don't fire him.

[robert_unknown]

perhaps he is posting here, and we dont recognize him ... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[40days40years]

Who? Murrell or Bonassohttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif You know if Bonasso is not lurking here and reading what his childhood friends are posting? He is a super man I could not do it. Hey Phil I will give you a few bucks, sign me up for a planet with water and a dozen JIA servant girls, an improved model that will work harder.

[lablady2]

40/40 said: If your a 14 year old kid and you mock Jesus? water off a ducks back but if you know him a long time and are happy to tell him syonara? Well things change then. If someone does that and that is fine? - you can kiss this board from ever reaching anyone in EN and many of the guys running this thing who are former Maranatha leaders.

40/40: In several posts now you have alluded to the fact that my conversion to Judaism and rejecting “the J man”, as you have referred to your Lord and Savior, is damaging to those Christians who come to Factnet looking for healing and restoration.

Consider this: any damage that my conversion might do pales in comparison to the hurt and abuse these people have received within their own faith community. I suggest you spend your time and energy being angry with and trying to correct the damage being done by the likes of Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, Weiner &amp; Company, Haggard, Phil Bonasso and the many pastors from EN who are referred to here constantly. When you’ve whipped that little problem into shape, then maybe you can blame the little Jewish grandmother for all the ways in which she has led the flock astray. Until then, stop trying to use me as a scapegoat for the disillusionment that some may feel regarding their own spiritual experience.

[miltietoast]

frankenfool said
People have the right to reproduce or not that is not something that can be legislated.
And surprise they reproduce the same kind
What are we as humans evolving into?
Frankie you are factually challenged or handicapped -must be a mutation
I wish I had a grain of your incredible faith,I could cast mountains in the sea

[miltietoast]

frankenfool said
Well, I have all kinds of acusations hurled at me.
Poor innocent lamb

[wisedove]

Perhaps this person has a demonic stronghold. Perhaps there is truly hope if he is not past the point of no return with the blasphemy. I see Satan when I read about someone boasting about Blaspheming Christ, and the HOLY SPIRIT.

I won't communicate with demons. Jesus just commanded them to GO.

[wisedove]

In Jesus' Name.

[wisedove]

If you want a revelation of heaven and hell, (NO, I haven't read each book yet, so while I can not comment specifically on them, I can at least say by the power and presence of the Holy Spirit within me that these are timely, and a good read, from the excerpts..and several of my family members have them..)

A Divine Revelation of Heaven
A Divine Revelation of Hell

I'll try to find links.

Author, Mary K. Baxter

(Message edited by wisedove on November 16, 2006)

[wisedove]

http://www.nowsthetime.org/revelation.html1`

this is a link to a site where you can listen to this lady's testimony. She knows she will get persecution from her testimony. Nevertheless, lives are being changes with her divine revelation of Hell and Heaven.

[wisedove]

I guess the only thing I can do besides rebuke satan in Jesus' name is pray for those who seem to think Hell is a better alternative than Heaven for all of eternity. I pray that the deception be loosed off of your mind, in Jesus' Name.

[40days40years]

lab I am afraid of you, you are one tough little jewish grandmaul. Look up maul. Hey if folks talk about me in code I may respond. I am feeling GUUUUUUUUDDD today.

[40days40years]

I really like the term J man. I think Jesus likes it too. It is edgy and modern but old time too. Yeah I picked the term up from mockers but look at it this way. Jesus is always calling himself the son of Man. In my retarded logic Jesus gets to call himself MAN and gets to claim an entire letter of the alphabet. J-2 gotta give up the J hon. J Menn? see that is so cool.

[lablady2]

Main Entry: 1maul
Pronunciation: 'mol
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English malle mace, maul, from Anglo-French mail, from Latin malleus; akin to Old Church Slavic mlatu hammer, Latin molere to grind -- more at MEAL
: a heavy often wooden-headed hammer used especially for driving wedges; also : a tool like a sledgehammer with one wedge-shaped end that is used to split wood.

I'll take that as a compliment.

[40days40years]

Yep unless your on the receiving end.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif Peace not pieces.

[lablady2]

"I guess the only thing I can do besides rebuke satan in Jesus' name is pray for those who seem to think Hell is a better alternative than Heaven for all of eternity. I pray that the deception be loosed off of your mind, in Jesus' Name."

I wouldn't care to eat lunch with about 30% of the people I know who insist they are going to heaven, so I can't imagine wanting to spend an eternity with them. Let's not blame that on demon possession, satanic influence, or the pull of the moon. My choice, plain and simple.

[wisedove]

LL, just because someone insists they are going to heaven does not mean they will. It is the Father's will that none should perish, but come to repentance and only believe in His Son, and what He did for them, and what provision that He gives to those who believe.

I WILL blame someone that outright boasts of blaspheming the Holy Spirit as someone under satanic influence. No apologies there. God created all people, and knew EACH one of us before we were even in our mother's womb.

That Hebrew word means <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

H3045

יָדַע

yâdaʽ

yaw-dah'

A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.):—acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, for a certainty, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to, let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding]<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

He knew our destiny, created us with a purpose, and had a plan for our life. I can almost guarantee that His plan for Frankie and any others was not for them to blaspheme His Holy Spirit, and commit the only sin that's not pardonable. I can only almost imagine He did not create any of us in our mother's womb to one day reject Him and His Son.

I backslid several times in my life. I totally lived in SIN knowingly and without remorse for years after I felt like my life was a lie. God in His great grace and mercy wooed me back unto Himself. I praise HIM for that. I cannot live without Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God. I worship Jesus for what He did for me. If I were the only person alive, He would have taken the beatings on His back and the crown of thorns in His head and the nails in His hands and feet and the sword in His flesh JUST for me.

I praise the God of CREATION for being a loving FATHER when our earthly father's disappoint, or when our husbands disappoint, Jesus is our heavenly groom, who never disappoints. He desires that ALL would come to repentance, and be saved.

I believe the rapture will take place in my life time, and just like Noah had mockers as he preached the same word for 120 years as he built that boat, I and other's will have mockers as we look for His return which could be very soon, looking at the state of the world today and the many signs pointing to this and leading to this. Praise God that the great revival will more than likely take place after the rapture, and those who are presently mocking will get the choice to take the mark of the beast on their heads or hands, or be martyred for their belief in God, the one and only true God, Lord of Heaven and earth.

When Jesus comes back and sets His feet on the mount of Olives and puts an end to the war, and brings true peace to the earth, and begins to rule and reign here for 1000 years, I look forward to having my part in that with Him. Do You? (Generally speaking YOU, not any particular person.)

(Message edited by wisedove on November 16, 2006)

[wisedove]

For those who might be interested, there is a man in power and position named Javier Solana (http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/) who could hold the place of power that the anti christ will come from. Google Recommendation 666, and see what you come up with.

He is the most powerful man in the EU, and the WEU, and has already devised a peace plan that He will be presenting to Israel in Jan. of 2007 at a meeting that only takes place every <u><font size="+2">7 years</font></u>. Hmm.If this is THE PEACE TREATY spoken of in God's Word, look up into the EASTERN SKY, because whether you believe God's Word is true or not, Jesus is coming back.

[wisedove]

Here's some references to Witchcraft, demonic strongholds:
Title: Encyclopedia of Bible Facts
Edition: First
Copyright: Copyright © 2004 John Hunt Publishing Ltd., UK. Text: © 2004 Mark Water. All rights reserved. Except for brief quotations in critical articles or reviews, no part of this book may be reproduced in any manner without prior written permission from the publishers. The rights of Mark Water as author have been asserted in accordance with the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 2005, QuickVerse. All rights reserved.
Permission to Quote:

The Bible’s teaching in summary

“For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry … ” 1 Samuel 15:23 NAS

“For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft … ” 1 Samuel 15:23

Defining witchcraft

Witchcraft is wanting to have spiritual power without submitting to God.

Witchcraft is a desire to be a spiritual free agent without submission to God and without regard for the Bible’s teaching.

The dynamics of witchcraft

“You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire … When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!” John 8:44, 45 NIV.

All supernatural power comes, ultimately, from either God or Satan. Satan empowers those who believe a lie. Witchcraft supports Satan’s lies.

So anyone who opens himself or herself to them and then:

• mixes certain ingredients in a drink

• eats special herbs

• arranges candles in a certain configuration

• stares into a crystal ball

• turns over Tarot cards

• “reads” the stars

• draws certain symbols

will encourage evil spiritual forces to come into play.

But according to James 3:15 such so called “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil.

[wisedove]

cont.
Rebellion against God ranks as the greatest sin we can commit. Divination and witchcraft are often linked to each other in the teaching of the Bible.

“For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you” 1 Samuel 15:23 NIV.

Witchcraft and God’s followers

Witchcraft should never be allowed any foothold within the Christian church.

“Let no one be found among you … who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or cast spells, or who is a medium or spiritist.” Deuteronomy 18:10, 11 NIV.

“For those nations, which you will dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so.” Deuteronomy 18:14 NAS.

The lure of sorcery should never be underestimated.

“Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, ‘This man is the divine power known as the Great Power.’ They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic.” Acts 8:9–11 NIV.

Fighting the lies

God’s followers, in Bible times, as today, have to expose, condemn and root out all kinds of witchcraft. In addition to those slain in battle, the Israelites had put to the sword Balaam son of Beor, who practiced divination. Joshua 13:22 NIV.

“He … practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, provoking him to anger” 2 Chronicles 33:6 NIV.

“Then the Lord said to me, ‘The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries, and the delusions of their own minds.’” Jeremiah 14:14 NIV.

“So do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your interpreters of dreams, your mediums, or your sorcerers … Do not let the prophets and diviners among you deceive you. Do not listen to the dreams you encourage them to have.” Jeremiah 27:9, 10 NIV.

We must be repentant

Like any other sinful activity Christians should repent if they have ever dabbled in or been deeply involved in witchcraft. One example of this is recorded in Acts.

“Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver” Acts 19:19.

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

WiseDove: I believe the rapture will take place in my life time, and just like Noah had mockers as he preached the same word for 120 years as he built that boat, I and other's will have mockers as we look for His return which could be very soon, looking at the state of the world today and the many signs pointing to this and leading to this. Praise God that the great revival will more than likely take place after the rapture, and those who are presently mocking will get the choice to take the mark of the beast on their heads or hands, or be martyred for their belief in God, the one and only true God, Lord of Heaven and earth.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I don't want this to sound like an attack against you, because it's not; however, I don't think it's quite accurate to compare pre-trib rapture believers and the response they receive to Noah and the response he received. Noah was given a direct and specific word from God to build an ark because God was going to flood the earth within a certain ammount of time. The book of Revelation, on the other hand, gives no timeframe and presents a message that is open to a variety of interpretations.

In general, it seems to me that people who believe in a tribulation in general and specifically in a pre-trib rapture are mocked not for those beliefs but for their regular and always wrong date setting. For thousands of years, various Christians have claimed "Christ is coming back at such and such a time" or "The rapture is going to occur at this date" or "The tribulation is going to take place over these years" and for thousands of years those predictions have all been proven false.

Noah, on the other hand, spent 120 years preaching and warning people of the coming flood, and, when he finished the ark, the flood came. The only reason it is possible for us to fault his mockers is because his prophecy was true. On the other hand, the main reason why tribulation/rapture theorists are mocked is because to this date their prophecies have always been false.
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

WiseDove: For those who might be interested, there is a man in power and position named Javier Solana (http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/) who could hold the place of power that the anti christ will come from. Google Recommendation 666, and see what you come up with. He is the most powerful man in the EU, and the WEU, and has already devised a peace plan that He will be presenting to Israel in Jan. of 2007 at a meeting that only takes place every 7 years. Hmm.If this is THE PEACE TREATY spoken of in God's Word, look up into the EASTERN SKY, because whether you believe God's Word is true or not, Jesus is coming back.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I will bet you anything in the world that the Tribulation is not going to begin in 2007, and that the world will still exist 20 years from now.

[formermaranathapastor]

Ahem.........

Wisedove said:

"So anyone who opens himself or herself to them and then:"

• mixes certain ingredients in a drink

Is mixing cocoa and coffee OK?

• eats special herbs

Parsley, Rosemary, Thyme, are these OK?

• arranges candles in a certain configuration

Gee, I love candles. How do I check the configuration?

• stares into a crystal ball

You mean my TV? I have to get rid of that?

• turns over Tarot cards

Do you mean just touch them? Or just not live my life by them.

• “reads” the stars

The stars sure are pretty at night here in NM

• draws certain symbols

I just luv to doodle

will encourage evil spiritual forces to come into play.

You mean the republicans????

But according to James 3:15 such so called “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil.

Oh please, I have heard more drivel and mean spirited talk from Christians than from secular folk. This type of fanaticism is very exclusionary and unloving. It is: do it my way or burn in Hell. My how it makes me want to run the other way.

[wisedove]

I shared these things because of the blasphemy that has taken place on this thread, as well as other threads, and I am referencing these things because I believe for someone to outright enjoy saying they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit and that they choose to go to hell, well, this was for them.

FMP, forgive me, but it is not "do it my way, or burn in Hell." It depends on whose way you are talking about. My (dove?) or My (Jesus). If it is the latter, yes, perhaps. I didn't write The Word Of God, I only choose to believe it.

I rather enjoyed your post, btw. Made me giggle.

[wisedove]

J2,
You make good points about the time of Noah vs. our time now. However, God promises a crown to those who eagerly look for His return. It might be the only crown I get, but at least I will have one to lay at His feet.

I by no means am trying to put a date on the rapture. I believe the Word to be true in that no one knows the day or time.

However, the Word does say that this generation who sees certain signs will not pass away but will be caught up to be with Him in the clouds. There are signs today that our generation is seeing that no other generation can say, and all point to a return sometime in our lifetime. I am a fool if I think "sometime in my lifetime" must only mean 50+ years from now. It could mean 50 minutes from now, for all I know.

I want to be like the wise virgins, who were ready and prepared when the bridegroom came. (Matt. 25) Not the foolish virgins who begged for oil for their lamps and it was too late for them.

[wisedove]

<font color="ff6000">Here is a study on the Last Days</font>


Title: Explorer’s Bible Study: New Testament Epistles &amp; Revelation, Workbook
Edition: First
Copyright: Copyright © 1978, 1988 N.E. Constance Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 1999, Parsons Technology, Inc.
Permission to Quote: In compliance with copyright restrictions, no portion of these materials may be reproduced without written permission of the publisher.



IV. The Coming Change in the Last Days (2 Timothy 3:1-17)


A. Characteristic of the Evil in the Last Days (2 Timothy 3:1-9)

Through the Spirit of God, Paul reveals what shall come in the last days. It is descriptive of the moral qualities of professing Christians who have a form of godliness: they are outwardly religious, go to church, make some profession to a creed, but they deny the power thereof. They are (1) lovers of themselves: they live for themselves and walk in the flesh; (2) lovers of money: greed controls their activity; they live in pleasure as they are; (3) lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God. We certainly live in the midst of these conditions today. Evil teachers began in apostolic times to creep into houses, silently like serpents, and captured silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts. This is interesting and sad, especially when we think of the exploitation of womanhood today. Selfish men, without natural affection, despisers of all that is good, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, yet tenacious of the form of godliness, the power of which they have utterly set at naught, shall exercise a strange empire over homes and the lives and consciences of women. Professing themselves religious and calling themselves teachers of truth, they will enter homes and captivate with their teaching, women who become easy prey, women who are searching but have not come to the knowledge of the truth. This is another reason it is so important that a father and a husband be the priest in his home by instituting family worship and spiritual direction for his family. It is in God’s order for the home. Homes that are guarded and girded with the Word of God are not among the ones mentioned in our text. This is the only sure defense we have against the attacks of Satan. Perverters and deceivers are exposed through the truth of the Word. Let us fortify our homes with Christ and the Word of God.


B. The Encouragement to Face the Coming Days (2 Timothy 3:10-17)

Paul endured persecution because he was a faithful minister of the Lord Jesus Christ and did not fail to preach the whole counsel of God. So it will also be with the true child of God today. “Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.” If the believer is true to the Lord and lives a separated life, he will suffer persecution (2 Timothy 3:12). Our problem today is that we are too closely yoked with unbelievers, that we are not marked men and women as far as Christ is concerned. Do your neighbors know that you are a Christian? Does your employer know that you are a Christian? Do your fellow-workers know that you are a Christian? Not because you obnoxiously pounce on others to make a display, but do they know you are Christian by your conduct, by your talk and walk with God?

Today it seems man has set himself in supremacy over the Scriptures, and we have become judges of it instead of it judging us. Paul says that “all Scripture” (the whole Word) “is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” How important it is to hold fast the great truth that the Bible is the Word of God. Apostasy starts with the denial of this fact. Scriptures are the permanent expression of the mind and will of God. They are our only authority, and by them we will be judged.

[wisedove]

http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/contents_menu.html

This is a better link to share about some research that has been done with end times prophecy and this person Javier Solana. I share this only to enlighten those who might be interested in end-times prophetic events, as I am.

[pilgrim]

Read Mattew 24 the whole chapter and then read verses 21 and verses 29 to 31. It looks like we are going to go through the tribulation before Jesus Christ returns i.e. before the rapture of his church.

1 Corinthians 15:52 says that we shall be changed at the last trumpet, it looks like the last trumpet is the seventh trumpet in the book of revelation.

2 Thesalonians 2:3-4 says that Jesus will not come back untill the antichrist is revealed. I believe that we are going to go through the tribulation before the Jesus Christ returns so we should be prepare.

Read also revelation 13:16-18

Look at the following websites used to have very good pictures of Microchips implans/ RFID's, Veri chips and Veri pay. Now they are down you can not view these sites anymore.

www.soldierofthelord.4t.com/photo.htm (http://www.soldierofthelord.4t.com/photo.htm)

www.soldierofthelord.4t.com/photo2.html (http://www.soldierofthelord.4t.com/photo2.html)

So I am posting this website again instead

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,61357,00.html (http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0%2C1282%2C61357%2C00.html)



Signs before the end and the second coming of Jesus Christ

Please read the following verses from your own bible because I have not written the bible verses but I have written my own little comentary about the verses

Rev. 16:15 Jesus said, behold, I came as a theif.(Please note that this verse was written in revelation after the antichrist is revealed Rev. 13:16-18 and Rev. 14:8-12 the saints were going through the tribulation)

1 Thes. 4:16-18 We will meet the Lord in the air (I think that Jesus will come this way because they are going to be many false Christs in the earth and God wanted to be sure that we are not tricked into following a false christ.) Read also Acts 1:11.



2 Thes. 2:3-4 A falling away (apostacy) will come first and the anticrist will be revealed before Jesus comes back. The son of perdition (antichrist) will sit in the temple in jerusalen and proclaim himself to be God. Read also Mark 13:14.

Mattew 24:5; Mark 13:5-6 and Luke 21:8 For many shall come on Jesus's name saying, I am Chirst; and shall deceive many.(One example of this is the manifest sons of God latter rain heresy). Read also Mattew 24:23-27; Mark 13:21-23

Some of the False Christs

The following websites explain the manifest son's of God (Manchild) latter rain heresy and the conection to the heresy of the Joel's army

www.thechristianexpositor.org/page44.html (http://www.thechristianexpositor.org/page44.html)

www.deceptioninthechurch.com/fprophets.html (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/fprophets.html)
Look at the false profesy about the birth of the Manchild (the Manchild is a false Christ)



Mathew 24:21-22 For then shall be a great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time.no.nor ever shall be. the bilble also said in verse 22 that if the days of the tribulation were not shortened no flesh would be saved and that for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. Read also Mark 13:19-20 and Luke 21:12-19.

Read the following verses that shows that we are going to be well into the tribulation before the second coming of Christ

Mattew 24:29-31 and 36 ( No one knows the day and the hour of Jesus return but we know that is going to be apostacy, great tribulation and the son of perdition will be revealed before it happens.) Read also Mark 13:24-27 and Luke 21:27.

[pilgrim]

I feel worry and sad when I think that many of the people who believe in the unbiblical doctrine of the pretribulation rapture might feel desperate and confuse when the tribulation starts and they might end up been deceived into accepting the false Christs, the anticrist and even the mark of the beast. We need to open our bibles and test with the scriptures everything that is taught to us.

[wisedove]

http://www.av1611.org/666.html

Lagniappe, the link above explains that a system is already in place on EVERY Product we purchase off of the shelves. The Universal Product Code is a Universal Number assigned to EVERY product, and it is hidden at the beginning, middle, and end of the upc codes that we do see on the products. The invisible Universal Product Code is 666, represented by the un-marked sets of 2 thin lines at the beginning, middle, and end of all barcodes on every product we purchase. Eventually, those with the mark of the beast set in their foreheads or hands will be the only ones allowed to buy and sell...

Pilgrim, I have to read your post before I can respond.

[wisedove]

Pilgrim,
I believe that the 2nd coming of Jesus is going to take place at the end of the tribulation when He actually sets His feet down on the earth's soin once again. I don't think the rapture is the same as His second coming.

[lablady2]

The UPC code? Are you kidding?

Ergo, ratio decidendi.

[wisedove]

I didn't make this up, ll, just as i have not written the Bible.

Go in your pantry and see for yourself. The 3 un-marked sets of 2 thin lines are not marked for a reason, but they all represent 6's and it is the number assigned to every product on the market.

[wisedove]

Pilgrim,
Here is a comparison of the rapture and the second coming.
<u>The Rapture</u> ....... <u>The 2nd Coming</u>
Christ comes in air.... Christ comes to the earth
He comes for saints.... He comes w/the saints
Claims bride.... Comes with the bride
involves believers.... involves Israel and gentile
tribulation beg..... melinnium begins

Rapture-1 Thes. 4:16-17; 2nd coming 1 Thes. 3:13/ Zech. 14:4

(Message edited by wisedove on November 16, 2006)

[pilgrim]

Wisedove,

The event described in my previous 2 messages is Jesus Christ coming back in the clows of heaven and christian meeting him in the air. You describe this event as the rapture, I believe that we will go through at least some of the tribulation before this happens.

1 Thes. 4:16-18 We will meet the Lord in the air (I think that Jesus will come this way because they are going to be many false Christs in the earth and God wanted to be sure that we are not tricked into following a false christ.) Read also Acts 1:11.



2 Thes. 2:3-4 A falling away (apostacy) will come first and the antichrist will be revealed before Jesus comes back. The son of perdition (antichrist) will sit in the temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself to be God. Read also Mark 13:14.

Read also mathew 24 I believe that will be first go though the tribulation.

There is also another event where Jesus will come back after the rapture with the saints to reign in this earth for a thousand years. I believe that you call this event second coming.

[wisedove]

Yes, Pilgrim, I call the actual time where Jesus will set His feet on the earth's soil the second coming that the Bible talks about.

In 2 Thes. 2:3-7, I believe that this describes the manifestation of the antichrist is being hindered by the "one who is holding it back".

Copyright © 1979, 1980, 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. All rights reserved. Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 1998, Parsons Technology, Inc.
The text of the New King James Version (NKJV) may be quoted or reprinted without prior permission with the following qualifications: (1) up to and including 1,000 verses may be quoted in printed form as long as the verses quoted amount to less that 50 percent of a complete book of the Bible and make up less that 50 percent of the total work in which they are quoted; (2) all NKJV quotations must conform accurately to the NKJV text. Any use of the NKJV text must include proper acknowledgement as follows: Scripture taken fron the New King James Version. Copyright © 1979, 1980, 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. Used by permission. All rights reserved. However, when quotations from the NKJV text are used in church bulletins, orders of service, Sunday school lessons, church newsletters, and similar works in the course of religious instruction or services at a place of worship or other religious assembly, the notice “NKJV” may be used at the end of each quotation. For quotation requests not covered by the above guidelines, write to Thomas Nelson Publishers, bible Rights and Permissions, P.O. Box 141000, Nashville, TN 37214-1000

2 Thessalonians 2:1 - 12 (NKJV) 1Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of £Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of £sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits £as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only £He who now restrains will do so until £He is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[pilgrim]

Look at Matthew 24:29-31 This event is not the second coming of Jesus to reign for a thousand years. This event is the rapture and it will happens immediately after the tribulation. The second coming will happen after the rapture Revelation 19:11-16 In the second coming jesus will come back on a white horse and not on the clouds of heaven as described in Matthew 24:30-31

[wisedove]

I believe the "restraining" is the Holy Spirit's presence in the believers, which will be taken away before the anti-christ is revealed, therefore, the rapture of the church will take place before the tribulation, and those raptured will be at the marriage supper of the lamb having a wedding party before returning to earth with Christ to rule and reign over those who made it through the tribulation time without worshipping the beast or the antichrist, and who did not take his mark, 666.

[wisedove]

Title: Explorer’s Bible Study: New Testament Epistles &amp; Revelation, Workbook
Edition: First
Copyright: Copyright © 1978, 1988 N.E. Constance Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 1999, Parsons Technology, Inc.
Permission to Quote: In compliance with copyright restrictions, no portion of these materials may be reproduced without written permission of the publisher.



B. Paul Teaches that Which Precedes Christ’s Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3:18)


1. Apostasy and the Man of Sin (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Before the Day of the Lord can come there must be a falling away, and the man of sin, antichrist, the son of perdition must be revealed. A falling away from the God-given faith has been going on throughout this Christian age. This is not the apostasy. It will be a time when there will be an abandonment of faith in all Christendom. Christ said, “Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?” The destructive Bible criticism rejecting inspiration and revelation, the denial of the Person and work of Christ, all these make way for the great apostasy. Today we have many cults in which Satanic powers are manifested. Ministers who are supposed to be ministering righteousness are advocating reform, better living, but denying the teaching of the Word of God, the doctrines of Christ. Antichrist will fill the measure of the final apostasy. He opposes and exalts himself against all that is called of God. He will be the super-man who will make his appearance to solve all internal and external problems of the nations. In the Book of Revelation his number is given as 666. This signifies man’s day and defiance of God under Satan’s power reaching its climax. He will make claims of being a religious character because he takes a seat in the temple of God and sets himself as God. The temple of God does not mean the church. The Jewish people, restored once more to their land, established there as a nation, though still in unbelief, will build another temple and institute once more the temple worship. God will reject this. It will take place during the time of Jacob’s trouble, the great tribulation. It is interesting today to look through your Bible and see all the prophecies that have been fulfilled.

[wisedove]

Title: Explorer’s Bible Study: New Testament Epistles &amp; Revelation, Workbook
Edition: First
Copyright: Copyright © 1978, 1988 N.E. Constance Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 1999, Parsons Technology, Inc.
Permission to Quote: In compliance with copyright restrictions, no portion of these materials may be reproduced without written permission of the publisher.



2. Fate of the Man of Sin: Fate of Christendom (2 Thessalonians 2:5-12)

Paul had previously told the Thessalonians about the mystery of lawlessness already working. This increases until there is open lawlessness in an outright, defiant opposition to God and His Son, culminating in the man of sin, the false Christ, giving the world its long-sought liberty from divine restraint, and bringing its progress to perfection, which under Christianity was impossible to attain. The Holy Spirit of God is the Restrainer, and as long as He is present in the world, Satan cannot have complete control. When the church leaves the earth, then this restraining power and Person who dwells in the church will be taken away. Then the lawless one will be revealed. The Holy Spirit came down to earth on the day of Pentecost to form the church, the body of Christ, and when that body is complete it will be taken to heaven to join Christ who is its Head. Then will great darkness settle upon the nation; the apostasy will be here. This is the best evidence that the true church cannot be on the earth during the final years with which the age will close. No true believer will be in the final apostasy under the direct rule of anti-Christ, nor will the church go through the tribulation. Rejoice and praise God!

Strong delusions follow, and those left will really be deceived by the false Christ because he performs wonders and miracles. “Powers, signs and wonders” are the three-fold designation which excite attention and admiration. For a short time there will be apparent peace, and then sudden destruction will come to the earth and to all those who have been deceived. Scripture teaches that this great tribulation will last about seven years. When we study the Book of Revelation we will deal with some of these details which need much more time. In the end sin will be permitted to be its own horrible witness against itself. Let us who know God’s Word have “good hope” established in the Word and work of Christ.

[wisedove]

Title: Explorer’s Bible Study: New Testament Epistles &amp; Revelation, Workbook
Edition: First
Copyright: Copyright © 1978, 1988 N.E. Constance Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 1999, Parsons Technology, Inc.
Permission to Quote: In compliance with copyright restrictions, no portion of these materials may be reproduced without written permission of the publisher.



3. Exhortations (2 Thessalonians 3:1-18)

“But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard you from the evil one.” The lesson for us today is that in view of Christ’s coming our hearts should be concerned with Christian conduct. Christ’s soon coming should delight us and make us even more diligent in winning others to Him.

[wisedove]

VIII. The Latter-Days and Apostasy (1 Timothy 4:1-16)


A. Satan’s Power in Opposition to the Truth (1 Timothy 4:1-5)

Paul gives a prophetic warning concerning the apostasy in the last days. The apostasy has nothing to do with nonbelievers. They never belonged to the church, to the true church of Christ, and not being eligible as members, they cannot apostatize. It therefore has to include those who will depart from the faith and give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons. Satan attacks the faith first, as this is the foundation upon which all else rests. How evident this is today! The mystery of godliness, the doctrine of Christ, is increasingly being denied and rejected through many active systems. Many of Satan’s ministers appear as ministers of righteousness. They teach the most deadly error under the guise of piety, devotion and a deeper religious knowledge. Evil and error always put on the form of truth and godliness. Many systems that claim to be Christian are anti-Christian. Some of these systems forbid what God has established in creation. Marriage is an institution of God and sanctified by Him. They exalt themselves against the authority of God, forbidding what God allows.

[wisedove]

B. God’s Remedy Against Apostasy (1 Timothy 4:6-16)

We must avoid whatever leads us away from godliness. Study the Word; know sound doctrine and preach it. Have faith in the living God who is our Saviour, God, and who by His power and providence sustains all men. He is the preserver of all, and especially of those who believe. Paul urges Timothy, although youthful, to set a good example in his life and to walk as a minister, in word, in conduct, in faith and in purity. Paul admonished Timothy to study and not neglect the gift God had given him. A gift may be idle and neglected, but used, it should grow and be a blessing to others.

[pilgrim]

Wisedove,

Look at the following website about The Restrainer.

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/rstrnr.html

I feel very tired I must go to sleep now. Tomorrow I need to get up very early. We talk tomorrow.

Blessings
Pilgrim

[wisedove]

Get some rest!
God Bless.
Dove

[wisedove]

Pilgrim, More info. to ponder:

2. The Blessed Hope of the Believer (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

This portion of Scripture contains one of the great revelations of the Bible. It was necessary for Paul to teach regarding this, as the Thessalonians were confused as to what happened to fellow believers who died before the coming of Christ, which they were looking to happen any day. They feared that the dead would lose their share in the glorious meeting between Christ and His saints. They knew Christ would come again because He said He would. They waited for Him, but did not know the manner of His coming. What Paul teaches here to dispel their ignorance was a comfort to them as it is also a comfort to us today. Jesus Christ died and rose again, and so shall all believers. Saints in life or death are in His hands. Jesus Christ is now at the right hand of God the Father in glory, crowned with honor and glory. When His church which is made up of believers is complete, then Christ will return for His own and all will be gathered to meet Him in the air. Now this is the time that Christ comes for His saints. It is not the visible manifestation as when He will come with His saints following the great tribulation. Paul gives a vivid description of all that will take place. Let us not rationalize or minimize what he is saying. The shout and the trump of God will gather the fellow-heirs of Christ. The dead in Christ shall rise first, the righteous dead. The rest of the dead (the wicked dead) will be raised later to judgment. Then we who are alive and remain, the living, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord. This is all believers; it does not include those who only profess to be Christians and are nominal church members, but none will be excluded who really belong to the Lord and are watching and waiting for His return. The change will be in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. What a blessed time of reunion this will be with loved ones who preceded us. What a blessed hope we have in Christ, not death or the grave but the coming of the Lord. Are you anticipating this glorious event? Live each day as if this were the day Christ would give forth the sound for that meeting in the air. What joy and comfort this must have been to the sorrowing Thessalonians. They are today words of comfort and joy and hope for all believers. In that day all laws of gravitation will be set aside, for the power of God which raised Jesus from the dead will be displayed in behalf of His saints.

Between the coming of the Lord for His saints and the coming of the Lord with His saints will be seven years of great tribulation, when the wrath of God will be poured out in judgment against those who reject Jesus Christ.

[wisedove]

cont.
E. Paul’s Exhortation on the Day of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 5:1-28)


1. The Day of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 5:1-11)

The Day of the Lord is that day when judgment will be executed upon the world. This day was fully revealed in the Old Testament through the teaching of the prophets. Christ Himself said that this Day of the Lord would be prefaced with “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” (Luke 21:25-27). (See also Matthew 24:21-31). The world will know the judgment when that day comes, as judgments and tribulation are the forerunners which usher it in. The world rejects the idea of such a day because the dream is of peace and safety, in prosperity, in expansion of power, universal peace and a constant improvement of earthly conditions. The world is full of false hope and false optimism. After vengeance has been taken on those who know not God and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, man’s day having ended, the Lord Jesus Christ will reign over the earth with His saints for a thousand years (Revelation 20). Paul admonishes us to watch and be sober as children of the day and as children of light. Being sober, walking in separation from the world, its lusts and pleasures, the believer having on the breastplate of faith and love can advance against the enemy.

[wisedove]

2. Final Exhortations (1 Thessalonians 5:12-28)

As a soldier who is armed and ready for conflict, so the Christian is to be armed and waiting for the return of Christ, faithful in working and occupying until He should come. Paul admonishes the Christians to be at peace among themselves: those who are disorderly are to be disciplined; the fainthearted are to be comforted; the weak sustained, and patience is to be manifested toward all. Following this we have joy, prayer and thanksgiving as characteristic of those who are waiting for Christ’s return. “Rejoice always.” Our joy is in the Lord and the joy of the Lord is the strength of God’s people. “Pray without ceasing.” This is constantly needed. “In everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.” “Do not quench the Spirit.” The Holy Spirit must not be hindered in the midst of His people. “Do not despise prophecies.” “Test all things; hold fast what is good.” “Abstain from every form of evil.”

We are aware as Paul closes this epistle that it is with a deep sense of the great responsibility on the part of him, his co-laborers and all believers. We are aware also of the great faithfulness of God who has called us. Let us pray one for another. God is faithful and will bring to completion the work He has begun in us.

[pilgrim]

Hi wisedove,

I agree with most of what you said except that I believe that all the scriptures that you gave me refer to the same event. Jesus coming back in the clouds of heaven and Christian meeting him in the air. Acts 1:11.

Some people preach that the rapture and second coming are that same event because the rapture happens when Jesus comes back in the clouds of heaven for the second time.

Jesus will come back for the third time on the white horse to finish the kingdom of the antichrist and start the millenium with christ.Rev. 19:14-16
Some people also called this event second coming.

Wildwood, I do not understand everything in the book of revelation but I am trying very hard and I believe that the Holy Spirit will guide you and me to the whole truth if we just want to sincerely find out the truth. Every few months I understand these prophesies a bit better.

I just feel worry because if I am right and the rapture happens after the Mark of the Beast, people who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture might take the Mark of the Beast thinking that is not the Mark of the Beast because the rapture should happen first. I believe that it is very important to ask the Holy Spirit to help us to understand these prophesies because we are on the end times.

[pilgrim]

Wilwood,

I wonder why my last post is number 262 when my previous post abut The Restrainer was number 260.

[pilgrim]

Wilwood,

You can also look at the following website.

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/

I have found parts of this website helpful although I have to admit that I have not yet read the whole website. It is just to big!!

[wisedove]

Pilgrim,
Hi, once again. Thanks for great dialogue with me on this.

I believe differently, that's all. I will tell you this much, if the rapture came after the trib. (which i don't think it will) Most, if not all Christians should know about the Mark thing and just reject it.

When is the marriage supper of the lamb to take place if the rapture and His second coming are taking place at the same time?

I believe the rapture is when He gathers the Christians up with Him in the air, and then a 7 year long wedding supper of the Lamb will take place while there's the tribulation going on on earth, and then Christ will come back for the second time (His appearing in the sky is not the same as His RETURNING to the earth) to put a stop to the wars going on, and every knee will bow and tongue will confess that HE IS LORD, and those who chose to follow the Antichrist and who received the mark will just be annihilated with the speaking of His Voice. Those left will be the faithful who refused to follow the Antichrist and False Prophet, were not martyred, and will go into the millennial kingdom on EARTH where the rapture will reign with HIM.

Yes, I agree that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth. The beginning of Rev. says we are blessed if we study the book. (Revelation.) Rev. is truly the Revelation of Jesus, as well as what will take place. I did a 7 week long in depth study just recently.

[wisedove]

I agree with John Hagee and Jack Van Impe on the views of the pre-trib. rapture. Hal Lindsey teaches it that way as well.

[wisedove]

Pilgrim (and any others) I came across this study in my quickverse pc software about the mark. I beleive that these verses tell of angels who will warn those on the earth during the tribulation not to take the mark or they will receive the wrath of God.
V. Into the Light: The 144,000 and the Message of the Angels (Revelation 14:1-10)

<font color="0077aa">Out of the darkness into the light again! The lamb is surrounded by the 144,000 who sing a new song before his throne. The earth below is ripe in its wickedness, and richly deserves the judgment that is about to fall.

Three angels are dispatched with messages from God. They are testimonies to God’s mercy and love. In the midst of the wicked rule of the beast and the false prophet, God still calls all to repent and refuse the beast’s seal. No one will take the mark of the beast in ignorance. God warns them of what it means to choose the beast over the True God. Those standing true and faithful to God will be comforted by what the angels declare—that God will prevail and their faithfulness will be rewarded.</font>}

[wisedove]

continued,

<font color="0077aa">A. The Message of the fourth Angel—Harvest of Judgment

There is no suffering for any class of God’s people in any age like the sufferings of those who remain faithful to God during the reign of the antichrist. It is equivalent to a voluntary coming forward to the state block to have their heads chopped off. Therefore there is another proclamation from heaven for their special strengthening and consolation. Whether this word is also from an angel we are not told, but it is a message from glory and from God. That message is: “Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.” This is true of all the saints of all ages, but it is particularly true of those who at this time lose their lives for their faithful obedience.</font>

[wisedove]

<font color="0077aa">B. The Vision of the Cloud (Revelation 14:14-20)

“Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud,” From this we may be quite sure of what is coming. That cloud is the signal of the second advent of the Lord Jesus. That cloud is “white,” like fire at its most intense heat, like the lightning itself, portending the purest as well as the hottest wrath toward the powers which have usurped the dominion of the earth.

“Having on His head a golden crown.” It was the same Son of man, in the same cloud, settled in all the royal prerogatives of the same supreme dominion, and manifested for the same purpose of dispossessing and destroying the beast.

“Another angel” comes “out of the temple,” not “the temple which is in heaven,” as in verse 17, or it would be so stated, but “the temple” as distinguished from “the temple which is in heaven.” Therefore it is the temple on earth, referring either to the material temple rebuilt and reconsecrated or the spiritual temple as made up of those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, or both; that is, from the very point and place where the antichrist has enacted his greatest enormities of wickedness.

“He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.” Tremendous words! What plagues descend with that sharp sickle. What a crash comes with its descent upon a world now dead ripe for final judgment. What powers and systems fall before it! What sores and agonies it brings to them that bear the mark of the beast and worship his image! What pestilential decay it strikes into the sea where the beast rises and into the rivers and fountains where his subjects drink! What new blazes of consuming heat it gives to the sun! What torment it inflicts upon the throne of the beast and darkness and anguish upon his kingdom! What cries and thunders and lightnings and earthquakes and hailstorms and trembling of nations and anxieties of men it arouses into activity! It brings down great Babylon with a crash that fills the world with lamentations and horror. It strips the great adulteress of all her pride and queenliness and fills her with torment and sorrow and burning. It sinks all the riches and glories of a godless world into one common ruin, never to be brought up again.

The vision of the vintage: “Another angel” comes out of “the temple which is in heaven” the temple which is in heaven as distinguished from the temple which is on earth. “So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth.” The vine of the earth is that which stands over against “the vine of heaven.” The true vine is Christ, and Christians are the branches. “The vine of the earth” is antichrist, and its branches are his adherents and followers. The grapes of this vine of the earth are the matured children of wickedness, and “their wine is the poison of serpents, and the cruel venom of cobras.” (Deuteronomy 32:32-33). They have by this time gone as far as they can go.
</font>

[wisedove]

<font color="0077aa">A more particular description of this gathering of the hosts of antichrist into the winepress, and the treading of it by the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, is given in the latter part of chapters 16 and 19. It is in reality a war scene, the gathering of armies, the bringing together of the kings of the earth and of the whole world to the battle of the great day of God Almighty. It is for military purposes that they come, seduced, drawn and impelled by unclean spirits that issue out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. The region of their assembly is the Holy Land.

“And the winepress was trampled.” What strength have grapes against the weight and power of a man when he comes to set his feet upon them? And the riper they are, the more helpless. They must be crushed, their existence destroyed, their life-blood poured out; so with these “fully ripe” clusters, now gathered into the great winepress of the wrath of God. No weapon they can raise, no resistance they can make, can avail them. The beast was hailed as the invincible, but his invincibility is nothing now. The false prophet could make fire come down from heaven in the presence of men, but he can command no fires to withstand the lightnings of the angry and inexorable Judge. The heel of Omnipotence is upon them and they can only break and sink beneath it.

“And blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.” A river of human blood 160 miles in length and up to the bridles of the horses in depth, tells an awful story. When the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, so great was the bloodshed that Josephus says the whole city ran down with the blood to such a degree that the fires of many of the houses were quenched by it. When Sylla took Athens, Plutarch says the blood that was shed in the market place alone covered all the ceramicus as far as Dipylus, and some testify that it ran through the gates and overflowed the suburbs. Nor are we to think of any exaggeration in the very definite description of what John saw here as the consequence of the treading of this winepress. It is “the great winepress of the wrath of God.” It is the last great consummate act of destruction which is to end this present world. The masses on whom it is executed are “the kings of the earth, and their armies” (Revelation 16:14; 19:19) stationed in a line from Bozrah in Edom to Es-draelon in Galilee.
</font>

[wisedove]

The Rapture and Return of Jesus Christ Compared


Phase One (The Rapture)
<font color="0000ff">Phase Two (The Return of Christ)</font>


Christ comes to receive His church in the air.
<font color="0000ff">Christ returns with His bride and angels to the earth.</font>


The seven-year tribulation begins shortly after the rapture of the church.
<font color="0000ff">The millennial kingdom (1,000 years) of Christ is established after His return.</font>

The event is imminent; it could happen at any time.
<font color="0000ff">Numerous signs precede this event (cf. Rev. 6-19)</font>

This is a message of comfort for believers.
<font color="0000ff">This is a message of judgment (and warning) for unbelievers.</font>

The church is of primary importance.
<font color="0000ff">Israel is of primary importance.</font>

The rapture is a mystery.
<font color="0000ff">Christ’s return is predicted in both the Old and New Testaments.</font>

The judgment seat of Christ for believers occurs.
(1) The sheep and goats’ judgment occurs (Matt 25:31-46).

<font color="0000ff">(2) Antichrist and the world are judged (Rev 19:11-21)</font>

Only believers are affected.
<font color="0000ff">All people are affected.</font>

The church is taken into the Lord’s presence in heaven.
<font color="0000ff"> All believers are brought into the millennial kingdom to reign with Christ on earth.</font>


The major concern of 1 Thessalonians
<font color="0000ff">The major concern of 2 Thessalonians</font>

(Message edited by wisedove on November 17, 2006)

[lablady2]

Boy, I'm glad I don't have to worry about all that. More than I can comprehend.

[wisedove]

LL,
It's more than most can comprehend, that's why we need the Holy Spirit to enlighten us daily.

For clarification, all of this discussion started by another person creating a thread using Ted Haggard's name and then feeling like it was O.K. to just boast about blaspheming the Holy Spirit and that he/she was eager to go to hell.

I pray before I post, when it is something of this nature that needs to be addressed.

People can mock and condemn and persecute, but when it comes to the truth's of God's Word, there are no apologies and I will not be like many EN pastor's who don't even preach the rapture.

[lablady2]

My posts about going to hell are tongue-in-cheek. Your religion tells you that I am going to hell, and that's fine. Mine tells me that I am not.

[wisedove]

In your post above, when you were walking in agreement with Frank, you said it was by your choice, not by some demonic force or satanic influence that you would not be going to heaven. Where will you go, then? What does the Jewish faith teach in this regard?
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I wouldn't care to eat lunch with about 30% of the people I know who insist they are going to heaven, so I can't imagine wanting to spend an eternity with them. Let's not blame that on demon possession, satanic influence, or the pull of the moon. My choice, plain and simple.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Jesus was a Jew. He is coming back to rule from Jerusalem. I don't mock Jews. They are His chosen people. I believe He is their Messiah. It's what the Word Of God says. I am not making that up.
Thanks for the dialogue.

[wisedove]

I pray for the People of Israel. I Bless Israel, in Jesus' name.

[lablady2]

Wise, in some things I am in agreement with you. Sometimes, maybe Frank. Sometimes I agree with Joyce Meyer. Charles Stanley even. In other words, if someone says something I agree with, I agree, regardless of their faith background (or lack thereof, evern).

Speak has spoken. I would be more than happy to share with you what REFORM Jews believe regarding heaven, even though that would vary a lot, however it is not in keeping with the thread topic. It has nothing to do with EN. You can check out the Union for Reform Judaism for more information if you really want to know. I think it's www.urj.org (http://www.urj.org).

[wisedove]

LL,
I don't answer to man, I must answer to God alone. If He has me post about a topic here, it will be done. There are other Jews reading this, perhaps, that can benefit from our conversation here. There is a ton of information ALL over this board that has nothing to do with EN.

On the other hand, this discussion in a lot of ways has alot to do with EN. In the past, EN got away from placing Jesus as head of His church, His bride. Any one in the body of Christ is His Bride. He is coming back for His Bride, the church.

[wisedove]

I will check out that site that you posted, because I am curious to know more about the Jews.
Thanks.

[lablady2]

wise: One thing you should know if you are seeking information about the Jews. An Orthodox Jew has very different beliefs than a Reform Jew, yet they are all Jews. The central uniting belief that they share is stated in the Shema: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is One God." Beyond that, everything changes. If one doesn't understand at least this much, one may get confused pretty quickly.

[wisedove]

Thanks. I will also go to the Word to do a deeper study. All I know is that Jesus was a Jew, and He is our Messiah, and I believe what God's Word says is true. I will keep you and others in my prayers, for God's Will to prevail in your life.

[lablady2]

Wisedove said: LL, I don't answer to man...

See, dove, I knew we had something in common. Just ask my husband. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[pilgrim]

Wisedove,

You wrote, When is the marriage supper of the lamb to take place if the rapture and His second coming are taking place at the same time?

I did mentioned before that I believe that Jesus will come back on the clouds of heavens to take his bride ie his church and the marriage supper will take place. You believe that this event will happen pre-tribulation and I believe that will happen mid to post tribulation. Here is where we differ.

After the marriage supper Jesus will come back as a king to defeat the antichrist and start the millennium.

[wisedove]

Thanks, Pilgrim.
I just would rather picture a full 7 years of supper festivities where Jesus will be passing out our wedding gifts as He points out to His Father God all we mean to Him...With the number of people in the Church, i would hope it would take 7 years to get around to everyone.

Thanks again.
LL,
I smiled, and I think my own husband would agree, but I am also trying to learn true respect for him and how to properly (key word) submit to him as my head, under Christ. The Word is clear about this,too, thankfully. I have not always been (rarely ever b/c I'm pretty pig-headed and strong willed) been respectful of him and have not always submitted to him. God is doing a work in me on how to have a meek and quiet spirit which is of great price to the Lord, and i would assume would be a great price for my husband as well.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

(Message edited by wisedove on November 17, 2006)

[lablady2]

Wise, my husband has no complaints. I love him dearly and I treat him like a king....most of the time. I don't know many wives who save their chicken and egg money to buy their husband a Paul Reed Smith just because he wants one. I seek to be a Proverbs wife but that doesn't mean not speaking the truth when it needs to be spoken. Meekness isn't always a virtue; there's a season for everything.

[wisedove]

Believe me, I know all to well how to speak the truth when it needs to be spoken!

Where my role as wife and mother comes in, it is definitely an area God wants to teach me to be more like below...For the Spanish/Italian in me (and Cajun French thrown in, too..) brings out a not so lovely OR quiet spirit. It is an area I am trying to place under the Holy Spirit's control...For my husband DOES have complaints! (well, I am always able to justify WHAT I say, but it is the HOW I say them that needs toning down.)

Title: New Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Testament Volume
Edition: Third
Copyright: Copyright © 1990, Tyndale House Publishers, Inc. Electronic Edition Files Copyright © 1998, Parsons Technology, Inc.
Permission to Quote:



a meek and quiet spirit—A woman who has this spirit does not go around making disturbances; rather she quietly bears the disturbances that others cause (cf. 1 Tim. 2:9-11). A woman with such a spirit is gentle in her feelings and relationships and quiet in her words, bearing, and action. which is in the sight of God of great price—We need to remember that God observes our hearts, not just our outer appearance. Since Christ’s lifeblood is precious to us (1:19), we should try to live in a way that is precious, or pleasing to God.

5 the “meek and quiet spirit” of 3:4 was seen in the saintly women of old (cf. Prov. 31:30). They were saintly because they trusted in God and knew how to submit to the authority God had established.

6 Sarah is a good example of what a woman’s attitude should be toward her husband. calling him lord—

[wisedove]

I'm not sure how my husband would react if i called him 'lord'.

[lablady2]

I would have to brush up on my CPR before I called my husband "lord."

[wisedove]

yes, me, too.

[formermaranathapastor]

This is a good example of the harm that literal interpretation has done to well meaning Christians. Men and women are equal in every way, and a marriage is a partnership with no party being the "greater". Each spouse should submit to each other in love, and no one has the greater truth or the higher authority.

The statements of Paul and other New test. writers to the contrary, are the product of a different culture, and a different historical and social context. To hold that 2000 year old cultural statements apply today is fanaticism and foolishness.

[wisedove]

Word of God

(Heb. 4:12, etc.). The Bible so called because the writers of its several books were God’s organs in communicating his will to men. It is his “word,” because he speaks to us in its sacred pages. Whatever the inspired writers here declare to be true and binding upon us, God declares to be true and binding. This word is infallible, because written under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and therefore free from all error of fact or doctrine or precept. (See INSPIRATION, BIBLE.) All saving knowledge is obtained from the word of God. In the case of adults it is an indispensable means of salvation, and is efficacious thereunto by the gracious influence of the Holy Spirit (John 17:17; 2 Tim. 3:15, 16; 1 Pet. 1:23).

[pilgrim]

Hey, I just called my husband Lord to see how he would react. He said, "blasphemous" I replied why did you say that? He said because Jesus is Lord and not me.

In 2002 we got involved in another latter rain cult. I left my husband to do a mayor decision on his own. He complained that I should have stopped him from making that decision if I thought that was not the best one.

[wisedove]

From Quickverse pc software

Methods of interpreting the Bible

The aim of all biblical interpretation should be to travel down the correct path in order to arrive at scriptural truth.

“Improper” paths

Interpreting the Bible by means of improper methodology is nothing new. Peter warns against this in 2 Peter 3:16, where he refers to Paul’s inspired writings, “which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest [that is distort], as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”

The need for revelation

The Bible teaches us that we need revelation from God if we are to know about him and know him for ourselves. The Bible as a body of literature exists because human beings need to know certain spiritual truths to which they cannot attain by themselves.

Our need for revelation is indicated in Deuteronomy 29:29; “The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.”

[wisedove]

Guidelines for interpreting Scripture

1. Look for the author’s intended meaning

As we read we should never ignore the ordinary, plain, literal sense of each passage.

We should try never to superimpose a meaning on the Bible that is really not there.

The idea is to discover the meaning the author had in mind.

2. Look at the context

A text taken out of context can all too easily become a pretext for almost anything.

The context is discovered by looking at the whole verse in question, the surrounding verses, the preceding chapter and the following chapter and the whole drift of the topic under discussion in the Bible passage.

“If we would understand the parts, our wisest course is to get to know the whole.”

J.I. Packer

3. Look at the type of literature you are reading

The Bible contains many different types of literature and each type should be read for what it Isa. If one reads a parable as if it is history or poetry as if it is straightforward narrative one is likely to misinterpret the passage.

[wisedove]

4. Look at the Old Testament in light of the New Testament

The Old Testament should always be interpreted in the light of the New Testament. And the New Testament should always be interpreted against the background of the Old Testament.

“In the Old Testament the New is concealed. In the New Testament the Old is revealed.”

Augustine of Hippo

5. Compare Scripture with Scripture

The best commentary on the Bible is the Bible itself. Compare relevant parts of Scripture with each other.

Any part of the human body can only be properly explained in reference to the whole body. And any part of the Bible can only be properly explained in reference to the whole Bible.

6. Rely on the Holy Spirit

The Bible itself says that we are to rely on the Holy Spirit’s illumination as we seek its meaning.

See John 16:12–15; 1 Corinthians 2:9–11.

He who inspired the Word, the Holy Spirit, (2 Peter 1:21) is also its supreme interpreter. “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit” 2 Peter 1:21.

[wisedove]

Pilgrim, you are too funny! I think I will try this out when my hubby comes home later!

Yes, we are definitely supposed to speak with wisdom into our husband's lives. I totally believe that is what being a HELPMATE means. They should earnestly seek the council of their wives on some issues! We tend to be full of wisdom in areas that they might not be. that's where balance comes in, and submitting to one another.

[40days40years]

Well wisedove I also believe in a pre trib rapture. What is the worst thing that can happen if I am wrong? A little head chopping after getting to witness history and then off to glory.

The temple in Israel needs to be rebuilt. Babylon will be rebuilt or maybe it is Rome?, maybe both.

It will be fun. Wisedove preach it.

[wisedove]

Hey, 40.
Thanks! Yes, the temple needs to be rebuilt, and it is already prefabricated, which means when they are ready to build it, it will go up quickly. I think (not sure) that they ordered the prefabricated pieces last year.

[wisedove]

I'm not sure if the temple is to be rebuilt before or after the rapture, but I do know it needs to be in place for the anti-christ's brief rule.

Here's a link that talks about the prefabricated parts purchased and ready for rapid assembly.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44672

[wisedove]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Temple

Here's a better detailed entry on the temple.

Google "rebuilding the temple" for more.
Dove

http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/ (url)

(Message edited by wisedove on November 18, 2006)

[wisedove]

http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/

testing this out. the link above didn't work.

[pilgrim]

Read the following articles about microchips implants.

"He causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred threescore and six." -- Revelation 13: 16-18


http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=18767

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=14913

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17834

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15185

Michrochips implants to people in a club in Barcelona to make payments

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38038

Look also at this article in the following website

LIFE WITH BIG BROTHER
Employees get microchip implants
Company requires controversial device for certain workers

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48760

[pilgrim]

Wilwood,

This is for you look at the following paragraphs for from the following web site.

The rapture when?

Here is that one resurrection again. (Rev.20:4)… [I saw] the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (5)… This is the first resurrection. Notice that the saints who were beheaded because they would not take the mark of the beast are in the first resurrection. It was called first by John looking into the future from 96 A.D. after Jesus’ resurrection. This tells us that there is no resurrection and rapture before the tribulation mark of the beast. The second resurrection, called the second death in verse six, is after a thousand years and is for the wicked. Since the first resurrection is also the only resurrection of the righteous, it must be at the end of the tribulation. If it was at the beginning, the great multitude that is purified during the great tribulation could not be resurrected. (Rev.7:9) After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of [all] tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb… (14)…And he said to me, These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Notice that the resurrection and rapture are after the great tribulation, which most agree is the last 3½ years.

http://www.americaslastdays.com/hm03.htm

Wilwood, again I am grateful to God for the love that you have shown through making people aware that the antichrist is coming.

Blessings

Pilgrim

[wisedove]

Pilgrim,
Wildwood and I are two different (yet rather like-minded) people that post here. Thanks for confusing me with her!
dove
Thanks for the additional info.
I still think the rapture of the church (Christians alive when it takes place) will take place before the trib.

I think that the souls that had not been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus are those who will have the chance one last time to receive Christ DURING the trib. Perhaps unsaved ones who heard of His return, but never received Him before the rapture. These will be a great multitude of people during the trib. that will take a stand for Jesus, and for the Word of God, who will not take the mark of the beast.

God Bless you, Pilgrim. Thanks again.

[pilgrim]

Wisedove,

I am so sorry, I posted the last message to you quickly and wilwood was the first name that came into my head.

Good bless you too.

pilgrim

[wisedove]

wildwood, wisedove, completely understandable!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

She's a pretty neat person to be confused with. It's a compliment.

[40days40years]

Pilgrim if the rapture takes place at the very end of the tribulation then who will be left to repopulate the earth during the millenium?

That use to bug me in Maranatha some of the leaders said the mark was not a literal mark but the bible is very plain, "here is wisdom". It is like God is making it real simple also the mark or microchip implant or whatever it is appears to become infected so it is not spiritual its literal. You know when they promote this thing to people their most likely going to do it in the name of security and fighting terrorism is my guess.

[pilgrim]

40days40years,

You said, if the rapture takes place at the very end of the tribulation then who will be left to repopulate the earth during the millenium?

It looks like that after the rapture and the marriage supper Jesus comes back to defeat the antichrist read revelations 19.

It also looks like christians come back to earth with Jesus to reign for 1000 years read Revelation 20:4-5. Nothing is said in Revelations about repopulating the earth during the millennium with christ although this might happen. I need to do more research in the old testament about this.

You also said, It is like God is making it real simple also the mark or microchip implant or whatever it is appears to become infected so it is not spiritual its literal.

In agreement to what you said I am also sure that is a literal mark/implant and like you said it appears to become infected Revelation 16:2.

You also wrote, You know when they promote this thing to people their most likely going to do it in the name of security and fighting terrorism is my guess.

That is a strong possibility! The might also said that it would be the best way to prevent identity theft, credit card fraud and to increase the security of children.

People who do not believe in God, are not guided by the Holy Spirit and have not read the book of revelation might think that it is a brilliant idea.
It is becoming very popular in the area where I live to microchip cats!!
A friend of mine said that she had just vaccinated and microchipped her new kitten. The microchip cost her £18.

People are slowly getting use to the idea that the microchip is a good thing.
We need to make people aware of this prophesy in Revelation 13 before it is too late.


Blessings

Pilgrim

(Message edited by pilgrim on November 18, 2006)

[wisedove]

Hi, Pilgrim, and 40/40.

Pilgrim, here's just more food for thought...you said <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

It looks like that after the rapture and the marriage supper Jesus comes back to defeat the Antichrist read revelations 19.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I completely agree! Hear me out once more on this..not that I am right, it is still very debatable, but here's why I agree that the statement you made above proves that the rapture of the bride (church) will take place before the trib.

Jesus is coming back for His BRIDE. The Bride is made up of those believers alive when the rapture takes place. The Antichrist will then be allowed to rule for 7 years, and God will allow the "great lie" to be told (probably that this Antichrist is Christ) and will allow mass deception to prevail. The stages are set for this to happen very soon, or at least in my life time. all of the links above show how Prophetic events in the Word and World Events happening over the last 60 years or so all show that all prophecies leading up to His second coming have been fulfilled. We just await His second coming, which is different from the rapture.

The bride is the faithful believers. He will whisk them away for a very long (and much awaited) wedding feast. During the wedding supper of the lamb, which, i only imagine, will be the best party ever thrown, the tribulation will be going on down on earth. Wars, blashpehmies, etc. will be going on. There will be 144,000 Jews protected from any deception or harm during the tribulation. They will be the ones going around sharing Christ with those who were left behind.

There will also be two witnesses that will be protected from the wars, anti-Christ, etc. for a period of 3 1/2 years, when then they will be allowed to be killed and their bodies will be sign by all of the world laying on the ground. It will be all over the news world wide. Then, after the 3rd day, they will be brought back to life for all of the world to witness...These witnesses will also be sharing Christ.

Books, videos, the Bible, and Cd's will also be around during the tribulation time. These will bring answers to many loved ones left behind. They will then get to make a choice to follow the Antichrist or to take a stand for the one and only true God. Some will be martyred. Others will somehow miraculously be protected, and will be alive for Christ's 2nd coming, and the end of the tribulation, where He will put a stop to the antichrist's efforts, and with the breath of His mouth, those that followed this anti-Christ will all be killed instantly. Thus begins the 1000 year reign on the earth, over the great multitude who made it through the tribulation without worshipping this false Christ.

After the bride is full of feasting and partying with Jesus, we will come back at that time with Him, and have positions of ruler-ship along with him. No more need for voting on who will be president, etc. for He will take His place as King Of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

That must mean we are kings and lords.
dove

[wisedove]

Here's an interesting quote from this link:

http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bin/tw/booklets/tw-bk.cgi?category=Booklets1&amp;item=1104415262

Satan Wants You to "Miss the Mark"

One of the Greek words for "sin" in the New Testament literally means "to miss the mark." So Satan is content to let you "believe in" God and Christ as long as he can still control you, make you "miss the mark." His goal is to keep you out of the coming Kingdom of God, which will replace him and his demons—by blinding you to what is really happening! God inspired the Apostle James to write: "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!" (James 2:19).
Then James explains how the true Christian must not merely believe in God, but must surrender to God’s will and do what He says (vv. 20–23). James writes: "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only" (v. 24).
"Justified by works?" Yes—along with faith! Read verse 24 for yourself. It should be very clear that true Christianity involves more than just accepting, in faith, Christ’s death—which is a free gift from God—as full payment for our sins. When we accept Christ’s sacrifice, we must also make a literal "covenant with our Creator" to quit sinning in the future—to truly surrender to let Christ live His obedient life in us through the Holy Spirit! For, God’s inspired Word tells us: "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4, KJV). So we must repent of sin, repent of breaking God’s spiritual Law, the Ten Commandments. This involves a life of humble obedience—the "works" of keeping God’s laws and commandments.
Let us understand that no one can ever earn salvation—it is God’s gift! The true grace of God leads to the gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8–10; Romans 6:23). Those willing to obey God (Acts 5:29, 32) and who are under true grace will be God’s "workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works" (Ephesians 2:10). God’s grace does not eliminate the need for obedience and keeping God’s commandments. The Apostle Paul warned that one could "receive the grace of God in vain" (2 Corinthians 6:1). And while the Apostle Peter exhorted Christians to "rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:13), he continues with the expectation that we do so "as obedient children" (v. 14; cf. v. 2).
But when men cleverly misuse "grace"—teaching "cheap grace" without real repentance from sin—it is the very essence of the doctrine of the Antichrist! This false concept has allowed millions of professing Christians to go through life regularly and habitually disobeying the Ten Commandments—yet still assuming they are "good Christians"!
The Apostle Jude was inspired to warn us of this very deception. "Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 3–4).
Notice that Jude warns of false teachers using the idea of "grace" as a vehicle for "licentiousness"—license to disobey the very laws of God!

[wisedove]

Pilgrim
here's another good informative link.

http://www3.calvarychapel.com/library/smith-chuck/books/ttatc.htm#01
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

The Rapture will take place when Jesus Christ snatches His Church out of this world. It shall happen suddenly and without any notice. It's important to realize that the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ are completely different. At the Rapture Jesus is Coming for His saints. At the Second Coming the Church will return with Jesus Christ. Jude 14 tells us, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
just another good read for any one interested. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Speaking to the Thessalonians Paul said, "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (I Thessalonians 4:16-18).<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I pray these words ARE INDEED comforting.

[wildwood_]

Greetings Pilgrim and Dovey! I've been reading this thread and yesterday morning, I was sure Pilgrim that you must have been sitting beside me when I was looking at the "Restrainer" site with a puzzled brow on Thursday because I saw your post 264 the next morning to say "Wilwood you can also look at this..." LOL! I didn't know whether to worry that my questions were so powerful they escaped into space or if my computer was sending emails I didn't know about which if it had, I was sure hoping were polite ones. Naturally, the concept that the Holy Spirit might have just lovingly laid my name on your heart (by miss typing? hmmm I think that probably was no "mistake" maybe) was not my first thought--but it was Dovey's, Bless Her! And Bless You Too! For the last several weeks, "End Times" has been on my heart…actually since a Tuesday night in '76 and Jimmy Carter was elected President &amp; most of the Christians on Campus were joyous; instead, I had a strange heaviness of heart that I did not understand when apparently my prayers had been “answered”….so why did I have this dreadful feeling that a “season” had changed and that as there is a time for every season under Heaven—That the “Season of Winter” for the World had arrived…sigh.

So, I have read the discussion with much interest. My own thoughts keep returning to that for all I know…My Eternity could start “This Very Night” and Praise God that if so…I do know the Love of My Savior and know that my family also rests safely in His Hands. And perhaps, we should all be about “Our Father’s Business” and be the Lights to the World and the Hope to the Lost and Show the Reality of the Love and Lordship of Jesus Christ to All… His Mercy &amp; His Grace. Knowing Him means whatever today, tonight or tomorrow holds…we have no fear… His Perfect Love has cast it out! So Rapture, No Rapture, Tribulation, No Tribulation, Wars, Rumors of Wars…. Our God Still Reigns and He is Home with Us in Us His Living Temple Now. (Now remembering this on a day to day basis…hmmm, I’m not always a doer of the words I “preach”…but I want to be…I truly want to be…).

(Later guys...gotta see about supper...Dovey, got any Rice &amp; Beans left???)http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif

[wisedove]

I have plenty left! I'll send it through that tunnel thingy we talked about...hehehe

[wisedove]

red beans and rice, with sausage. mmmm. they are yummy, too.

[wisedove]

rebuilding His temple (we are the temple, hmmm, wildwood, neat thought.)

[40days40years]

Hey frankie where are you?, anything to report?

[pilgrim]

Hi wildwood and wisedove,

By placing the "first resurrection" after the tribulation, John has also placed the rapture after the tribulation.

The First Resurrection

Revelation 20:1-6

In Revelation 20, John described the resurrected saints being given places of authority in Christ's Kingdom.
Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(KJV)
The "first resurrection" which includes the tribulation martyrs is the only resurrection in the book of Revelation. Notice that John did not actually see the resurrection of the saints taking place, but described resurrected saints being given their places of authority in the Kingdom. It is clear that they had been previously resurrected. According to verse four, this resurrection includes those who were slain by the Antichrist. Therefore, they must have come through the tribulation, not bypassed it. This resurrection, which is clearly post-tribulational, was called by John, the "first resurrection." He contrasted it with the resurrection of the ungodly after the millennium. Of those who will experience the "first resurrection" he said: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." The implication is that all those who will reign with Christ will be raised in the "first resurrection." The fact that he called this the "first resurrection" precludes the possibility of there being a resurrection before this one at the beginning of the tribulation. By placing the "first resurrection" after the tribulation, John has also placed the rapture after the tribulation.


http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/rev20.html


You can also see an interesting VIDEO ABOUT MICROCHIPS IMPLANTS with this article about Christians who call for boycott of VeriChip, the implantable microchip, calling it ‘the mark of the Beast’. .

http://www.theresistancemanifesto.com/modules.php?name=Content&amp;pa=showpage&amp;pid=40

Wildwood, I really enjoyed you message, thank you.
Wisedove, I would also prefer a marriage supper with christ that lasted 7 years but unfortunately I believe that this will not be the case. Christians are going to go through the tribulation before the rapture although I wish that I was wrong.

Blessings

Pilgrim

[frankenchrist]

"Hey frankie where are you?, anything to report?"

Hi 40/40,

I have thought about some of the things that were posted here and I have decided that I should probably leave the EN folks alone.

I post under the 'atheism' thread and some others. I really don't want to 'bully' people, that is not my intention. I do believe that it is good for people to be exposed to different ideas and concepts -- I don't think that's bullying. Someone suggested that the people here are vulnerable (Matt?) and I thought about that. Yeah, I can see after an event like the Haggard scandal (I thought it was hilarious, but not everyone agrees) can leave some believers feeling a bit vulnerable.

So, if you want to debate things, I will do so on "atheism" or "religious leaders"

[miltietoast]

that is xtian of you frankie

[lablady2]

I gotta tell you, I'm impressed, FC. I've been flamed by some people here who have never felt the need to apologize or even admit they were out of line. Just goes to show that you can't always judge a books by its cover or a person by their label.

Matt's a good guy with a very good heart. He makes me look like a curmudgeon.

[matt_hatter]

Had a rough week last week, frankie, nothing personal. A few things hit me wrong, but hey, no sweat. It is a message board, your post above puts you in a new light, and I shouldn't have been so threatening. I'm way past being vulnerable, but there are some in here who have been recently flamed by cultish organizations, and are still trying to sort things out.

And Lab, I told you that you were a Chilton Co peach. Miltie is the crumudgeon.

[sameo]

Hey frank! thanks!!

[mdillon]

hey frankie, don't leave, we hardly knew ya.

lablady, I know mattie. he makes you look like st.theresa. the cinnamon bun version...

dilly

[lablady2]

Great. Now I have to go google "St. Theresa...cinnamon bun." You'd think a former good Catholic girl would be able to put that together.

[lablady2]

Googled it. ROFL. By golly, it does look like her...Mother Theresa.

When I die I hope people can say that I resembled a good looking pastry like that. High praise, indeed.

[matt_hatter]

Dilly ain't you kind of like St Roberto the Weener? Oh dang, that wasn't Xtian at all.

BTW, Steveo's team is down to 8 teams left in the state...heading to the quarterfinals Friday!!

[mdillon]

labby I am LMAO

mattie, my congrats to Steve-O, i know you're proud. on the other hand, I will kickyourass for the comparison to Bobby Dearest. Pappis is jealous now.

dilly

[lablady2]

md: I gotta ask this question 'cause I have to know if I'm hallucinating or if my memory was completely trashed by that rotten bus. Did you ever wear a PINK sweater? I'm just saying....

[matt_hatter]

Yea, that was wrong, Bobby was much shorter.

Labby, I looked at that damn cinnamon bun every way I could, but Mother Theresa? Just give me the sweet roll and some 8 o'clock coffee. Or as we are partial to in Bama, Honey Buns and Pecan Swirls. Nothing fancy with 8 0'clock.

Night all!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/yawn.gif

[wisedove]

I think it is rather astounding that you all would come on here and encourage an atheist who boasts about blashpheming the Holy Spirit to continue to post his thoughts, and seem to actually WANT to fellowship with him. The word is clear about not fellowshipping with darkness. I fretted all weekend about why the Lord allowed me to post what I did here over the last few days, and won't know the impact it might have on someone who is reading and not posting.

God always confirms His Word. He will confirm what I posted to others who might be just reading and wondering where all of that came from. I will tell you that the Lord prompted me to write what I did here, and He will confirm it to you, whomever YOU are. He confirmed things to me this morning, after fretting yesterday.

God Bless

[lablady2]

Gee, I saw Mother Teresa, plain as day. But then, I got a thing about nuns. My sister and I used to make our dad look under our beds at night to make sure there weren't any nuns under there. Cinnamon bun is a kindler, gentler nun.

[lablady2]

Dove, I have to say that I don't understand you at all. Didn't Jesus eat with sinners - prostitutes, thieves? Didn't the religious folk condemn Him for being kind to people they didn't find acceptable. I thought Jesus hung around with some pretty unsavory types. Didn't he say that he came to seek and save that which was lost? Do you speak only to those who are "holy"? Why are you "fretting" about what you posted? Doesn't perfect love cast out fear? Are UPC codes more important than people? I really just don't get it.

[mdillon]

labby-Did you ever wear a PINK sweater?

labby I am sorry to upset your high, but yes indeedy, I had a pink sweater deeded to me from Izod nation, complete with green alligator logo in a vain attempt to pull a Sharpie. But, alas, I never wore it without my snakeskin boots. It was my force shield while walking around the Buddhists.

labby, your memory is scaring me now. please ignore me while posting so I do not have to respond to you directly while thinking of krems.

dilly

[wisedove]

Hi, Pilgrim,
We can just agree to be at two different conclusions about pre-post trib. rapture! Thanks for more input.

I will hold on to the fact the our loving Father will not require the faithful Bride to have to decide to take the mark or not. I sincerely feel that chose will be left up to the ones who have rejected Him up until that point, not the faithful bride, the church. The wedding feast will be for the bride, who made herself ready. Ready for what? Why put the bride through hell on earth during the tribulation? I think that will be left for all of our friends and loved ones (or whomever's friends and loved ones are alive when this happens, I just happen to think it will be in my lifetime b/c all of the prophetic events have occured except the rebuilding of the temple, and His return...) but these who we have shared the gospel with, but have not made Christ Lord and Savior of their life, they will have to go through the trib. and make a choice then. Why would the faithful bride be put through that?

More food for thought.
God bless.

[lablady2]

md: Thank you! I've thought about calling my doc for some meds. Only recently I've had this vision pop into my head: You, a guitar and a pink sweater. The pink sweater will not go away. I'm knitting, and I see a pink sweater. I'm sitting in temple, and i see a pink sweater. I even asked Mary Beth if she remembered this damnable pink sweater. Okay, I'm not nuts. I feel delivered.

[lablady2]

"please ignore me while posting so I do not have to respond to you directly while thinking of krems."

Won't if I don't feel like it.

[wisedove]

LL,
I fretted because I was concerned that the board got strangely quiet for over 24 hours, and I didn't know what to think, and me in my fleshly mind started thinking...hmmmmm...perhaps I went a bit far. The Lord confirmed to me that I had not, and reassured me that He was going to confirm His word.

The difference with eating and fellowshipping with sinners and fellowshipping with someone who has boasted about committing the un-pardonable sin are two different things to me. Major difference. He cast demons out or rebuked them, He didn't debate with them or have cheap conversations with them. Personally, I think since the Word says we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against spirtual principalities, a person who has gladly committed the unpardonable sin (and only the Lord knows for sure if this has truly happened) is under domonic influece.

The truth is more important. Not UPC codes,etc. Thank you for your attempt to understand me. I don't understand myself either sometimes, but I have the Holy Spirit to guide me, and am a work in progress.

[lablady2]

Hey, wise...just a question. May I ask how old you are? I'm just curious, really. I'm thinking I'm probably old enough to be your mom.

Being female, I totally respect your right not to respond.

[mdillon]

LL-I'm sitting in temple, and i see a pink sweater

lablady.....

meds

dilly

p.s. yahweh says to share

[lablady2]

Wise, my understanding about the scripture regarding blaspheming the Holy Spirit was that one had to know and be familiar with the Holy Spirit in order to blaspheme it. How can you expect a non-believer to understand exactly what it is that he or she is supposedly blaspheming? The non-believer is exactly that - a NON- believer. Just a thought.

[wisedove]

This morning, at my new church, here was the first verse we were to turn to. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

1But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

2nd Tim. 3:1 was the main focus, and the message was centered on our unthankful, discontented attitudes. I feel this is a perfect picture of the world today. More reason to believe we are in the "last days."

[lablady2]

Okay, okay...my mind wanders. Is that a sin?

[lablady2]

md: Any ol' excuse for meds.

[wisedove]

cont.
10But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

[wisedove]

LL,
that's a good question. Let me pray about it and read a bit. Perhaps I'll be more enlightened afterwards.

If mind-wondering is a sin, (i only think it is if I am talking to God and then let it wander!) I better start repenting for that right now....I am seriously ADD. Truly. Only tried meds once. Didn't seem to help me. Perhaps the dose was wrong! I can't keep still long, either.

[lablady2]

Mr.Dillon: regarding the sharing. I am waiting for a word of knowledge regarding that. Oh, wait. I think I got it.

No.

[wisedove]

Copyright © 1979, 1980, 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. All rights reserved. Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 1998, Parsons Technology, Inc.


Matthew 12:31 - 32 (NKJV) 31“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Here's one thing I came across:
Title: New Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Testament Volume
Edition: Third
Copyright: Copyright © 1990, Tyndale House Publishers, Inc. Electronic Edition Files Copyright © 1998, Parsons Technology, Inc.
Permission to Quote:



31, 32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men—The word “blasphemy” properly signifies “slander.” In the NT it is applied, as it is here, to vituperation directed against God as well as against men; and in this sense it is to be understood as an excessive form of sin. All sin—whether in its ordinary or its more excessive forms—shall find forgiveness with God. There is no sin whatever, it seems, of which it may be said, “That is not a pardonable sin.” This glorious assurance is not limited by what follows; but, on the contrary, what follows is to be explained by this. but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost [Spirit] shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost [Spirit], it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come—In Mark (3:29) the language is awfully strong, “hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation”—or rather, according to what appears to be the preferable though very unusual reading, “in danger of eternal sin.” Mark has the important addition (3:30), “Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.” What, then, is this unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit? One thing is clear: its unpardonableness cannot arise from anything in the nature of sin itself; for that would be a contradiction to the emphatic declaration of 12:31, that all manner of sin is pardonable. And what is this but the fundamental truth of the gospel? (See Acts 13:38, 39; Rom. 3:22, 24; 1 John 1:7.) Then, again when it is said (12:32) that to speak against or blaspheme the Son of man is pardonable, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not pardonable, it is not to be conceived that this arises from any greater sanctity in the one blessed person than the other. These remarks so narrow the question that the true sense of our Lord’s words is immediately clear. It is a contrast between slandering “the Son of man” in his veiled condition and unfinished work—which might be done “ignorantly, in unbelief” (1 Tim. 1:13) and slandering the same blessed person after actually seeing the glory the Holy Spirit expressed through Jesus’ mighty deeds. This would be to slander him with eyes open, or to do it “presumptuously.” To blaspheme Christ in the former condition—when even the apostles stumbled at many things—left them still open to conviction on fuller light; but to blaspheme him in the latter condition would be to hate the light the clearer it became and resolutely to shut it out—which, of course, precludes salvation. (See comments on Heb. 10:26-29.) The Pharisees had not as yet done this; but in charging Jesus with being in league with Satan, they were displaying beforehand a malignant determination to shut their eyes to all evidence, and so were very close to committing the unpardonable sin.

[wisedove]

Here's another persons explanation from quickverse:
Matt.
12:31 The unpardonable sin is a knowledgeable, verbal, and continuous attributing of the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan (cf. Mark 3:22). Jesus’ miracles were authentications of His Person and mission as the Son of God. Rather than admitting that His supernatural power was a manifestation of the Holy Spirit in Him, they ascribed it to hell (cf. 23:13-36; Luke 11:52). Thus the fatal sin is the denial of the Holy Spirit’s testimony to Jesus as Savior and Lord, and results ultimately in rejection of the Son of God.

[wisedove]

Adam Clarke's commentary from Quickverse:

Matthew 12:31


All manner of sin and blasphemy—&amp;#914;&amp;#955;&amp;#945;&amp;#963;&amp;#966;&amp;#951;&amp;#95 6;&amp;#953;&amp;#945;, injurious or impious speaking, mocking and deriding speech, Anglo-Saxon. See Matthew 9:3.

But the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost—Even personal reproaches, revilings, persecutions against Christ, were remissible; but blasphemy, or impious speaking against the Holy Spirit was to have no forgiveness: i.e. when the person obstinately attributed those works to the devil, which he had the fullest evidence could be wrought only by the Spirit of God. That this, and nothing else, is the sin against the Holy Spirit, is evident from the connection in this place, and more particularly from Mark 3:28-30. “All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme; but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation; Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.”

Here the matter is made clear beyond the smallest doubt—the unpardonable sin, as some term it, is neither less nor more than ascribing the miracles Christ wrought, by the power of God, to the spirit of the devil. Many sincere people have been grievously troubled with apprehensions that they had committed the unpardonable sin; but let it be observed that no man who believes the Divine mission of Jesus Christ, ever can commit this sin: therefore let no man’s heart fail because of it, from henceforth and for ever, Amen.

[mdillon]

LL-No.

I rebuke that

dilly

[lablady2]

md: Stop already. The bladder is 52 years old.

[matt_hatter]

I said goodnight once, one more thing, lab, can I borrow a depends?

[lablady2]

matt: regarding the sharing of Depends. I'm waiting for a word of knowledge. Oh, wait. I think I got it.

No.

[matt_hatter]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[sameo]

HAHA hatter, careful there laughing your head off....if you are in need of a depends.

[mdillon]

I'm waiting for a word of knowledge. Oh, wait. I think I got it.

No.

I rebuke a spirit of redundancy. I rebuke a spirit of redundancy.

lablady, your words of knowledge are all sounding alike. are you for real?

dilly

dilly

[lablady2]

Dillster: "lablady, your words of knowledge are all sounding alike. are you for real?"

well, I didn't dream up that Pepto-Bismo pink sweater, did I?

[mdillon]

LL-well, I didn't dream up that Pepto-Bismo pink sweater, did I?

that did not require a word of knowledge but a lot of healing of memories. You know you're healed when you can make it through temple without snorting a giggle while thinking of it. Keep me posted on your progress. If it is too much to overcome, I'll have to break down and find a pic.

dilly

[40days40years]

Picture of Nick Pappis?

[matt_hatter]

well, I didn't dream up that Pepto-Bismo pink sweater, did I?

Labby, don't get so full of yourself. Forgetting a pepto sweater would be next to impossible, even for your feeble brain. Binny Bunny Hinn does not need a backup. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

PAGING SAMEO...CLEAN UP ON ISLE 4, CLEAN UP ON ISLE 4....

[lablady2]

Hardy har har, mr. mattie. I think I'm getting a word for you....I'm seeing four letters....hehehe.

It's okay. I've incorporated the pink sweater into the vocabulary of my life. When I'm zoned out, daydreaming, whatever....I'm having "a pink sweater" moment.

[wisedove]

LL,
I'm in my mid 30's

[lablady2]

Thanks, dove. I have a 32 year old daughter. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[matt_hatter]

Ahh...another bunny trail dictionary entry. "Sorry, I pink-sweatered on you, what did you say??"

This is absolutely the weirdest thread in EN history. Reading back over the varied topics...holy smokies.

Speaking of smokies, Miltie just called me, says it is snowing so hard on top of the Cumberland Plateau that he could hardly see. If I call the AllieCat, it would bring tears to her eyes. The hellacious heat of Alabama is wearing on the old girl.

[lablady2]

You have heat? Alabama is warm? Get the guest bedroom ready.

Matt: I was just pondering the content of this thread as you posted. Guess it's inevitable; human beings are just messy. I mean to stay on topic, I really do..then I have a pink sweater moment.

Speak's gonna have a cow.

[matt_hatter]

Oh, Speak won't care about this one, it was a continuation of a dead horsie anyway.

Speak posted something recently that was like coffee house poetry...really cool. My fingers were snapping beatnik style. Loved it!

OK, I am going to work a little...

[lablady2]

wisedove said: "I think it is rather astounding that you all would come on here and encourage an atheist who boasts about blashpheming the Holy Spirit to continue to post his thoughts, and seem to actually WANT to fellowship with him. The word is clear about not fellowshipping with darkness."

Wise, I've thought about these words a lot and I would like you to consider the following things which I am sharing with you in a spirit of love and concern:

Has frankenchrist indeed blasphemed the Holy Spirit? Are you sure that you have the complete and total understanding of what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit really is? I'm not talking about the words and commentary of others that you can cut and paste. Can you be so sure that you have the understanding of the mind of God about this issue?

I say that because you have, in effect, told another human being that he is guilty of committing the unpardonable sin. If he were to take your words to heart, he may go into life and sin more deeply or, at some point, fall into despair. And why not? You have told him that he is without hope, that there is no mercy in God for him. Personally, I think that's pretty dangerous territory for imperfect human beings to trek across.

I am not comfortable making such grave judgements about another person because I don't have complete knowledge and understanding. "Now we see darkly...." I know I will stand before God one day to give an accounting, and I can better accept my consequences for erring on the side of His love and compassion than removing all hope
from a person who admittedly is not a believer at this time. Christianity promotes seeking and saving such, does it not?

[wisedove]

LL,
If you refer to my above comment in () where I said (Only God knows for sure if this has truly happened) I think that would explain my thoughts about whether Frank has or not. I only took the stand against it because of his bragging about doing it daily. I think that was in his second post here on this thread. HE said he has, and does it daily....I only went from that.

I have actually prayed "God, only you know this person franken-so=so, and only you know his true stand and heart before you. Forgive Him for he does not know what he has done." Also, I am more nervous about the accounts before God for not speaking the truth when I should have...

This is not a game. This is real, and I brought up the whole end-time stuff because it is REAL, not made up, not some fanatsy world or from a novel. It is from the God-breathed Word of God, and the times we are in right now, how close we truly might be to His return, and to the trib. time, i just take some things seriously, and feel for those who reject Christ outright. The choice to follow Him or not to believe He is who God says He is, and receive the gift of salvation through His work at defeating death, hell, and the grave so that we can live eternity with Him, it is more weighty on my spirit right now than doctrinal differences, etc.

I pray for Frank, whoever "Frank" is, for deception to be removed, for the Holy Spirit to gently woo him to himself, for only He knows who has indeed committed the unpardonable sin.

I have not spent time praying for a deeper revelation about this. I was only led across other commentaries on this subject in an effort to get a clearer view of what this means.

I pray for everyone on this board. EVERYONE. For repentance, for humility, for salvation where that is needed, for God to shower each of us with His unfailing love. No matter what we have done, we can be forgiven, except for the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit thing, which I will be praying more about when I have the time. My kids are home this week.

Thank you for stepping out in a spirit of love for answers. I don't claim to have all or nearly all of them. I just know the Word does.
be back later.

[wisedove]

My thoughts to Frank on this. God created you with a purpose and a plan. He knew you before you were in your mother's womb. He is a loving and forgiving God, who desires a relationship with you. If you feel the tug in your heart you are not past the point of no return. The Holy Spirit will draw you to the Father, and forgive you for all sins. Only you and He knows your true heart and where you are with things. you cannot be blamed for your deception. Don't play around with boasting about being blasphemous, it is not to be taken lightly. I would encourage you to repent if you feel that wooing by the Holy Spirit. It is His desire that none should perish, but receive the gift of eternal life.

There will be a time and a day where every knee will bow and confess He is Lord. Satan will have to bow his knee. I pray you come to the knowledge of a loving Savior who wants a relationship with you now.

[sameo]

"Paging Sameo, Clean up on isle 4"

LOL....Hatter, if you think I'm gonna clean your puddle up you gotta another thing coming..." hehe

Labby, really....think ya could 'pretty pu-leeze with sugar on top' let matt have ONE depends. ;-)

[lablady2]

sameo: Because you are such a sweet and kind person, I will agree to send Mattie a couple of recycled Depends. Just doin' my part to keep the planet viable.

[matt_hatter]

Forget the recycled Depends. I want some Pull-Ups cuz "I'm a big boy now."

I'm outta here, this conversation is a rebuke going somewhere to happen. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

[flo1151]

Hi all,

Back from my much anticipated fishing trip.
The gulf was not kind to us last week. Too much weather activity. Finally got out Saturday for a while. The water was so stirred up you could not find any clear water. Matt, did catch a nice kingfish and a supernice spanish mackerrel.
But was not a very good fishing trip. Still had a good time with friends.

I am enjoying this particular thread about Ted Haggard. Please stay off the topic.

Lab in response to who is going to heaven, I am counting on a few people not making it that I have known or at least staying away from me up in heaven. Maybe there will be a variety of levels as I think it states in the bible. I would want to be able to be in the level of the ones who barely make it. I think they would be better neighbors. I would like to live next to a few of you here. It could be called barelymadeit court. The true overcomers and 100 fold just don't need to be coming down to our trailer park and starting trouble we will open up a can of heavenly whoopass on them.

Sameo, Matt can get his own depends and clean up his own mess. Matt you have been doing too much binding and loosing. It has come back 7 times worse. May I recommend 7X depends only sold at bass pro shops.

[matt_hatter]

Flo, you are killin' me...should we take our nonsense over to the hatter thread? I will post my thoughts on my heavenly neighbors over there.

[lablady2]

Flo, don't know what happened on that fishin' trip, but you're on a roll. I am rofl.

Maybe I can get a day pass to visit barelymadeit court - my peeps.

Matt: didn't mean to make fun of speak. I do understand his point although my natural inclination is to resist all attempts to be reigned in. I'll join you on a bunny thread a bit later. Now, I must go have my hair colo....uh, conditioned.

[sameo]

Welcome home, flo!!

[flo1151]

thank you sameo. Check your mail.

[40days40years]

Well this is a great place to bunny trail up. Haggard has disapeared into the mist and Dr. Dobson said I'm busy. Really I can kind of understand Dr. Dobson on this manner. Yeah come on over Ted, expose the roots of your problems and your fantasies. I mean unless your like Leo Lawson who likes this junk who wants to hear it. Dr. D get those keds on and run for the hills, talk about when your 3 year old threw jello at your head. I don't blame him a bit ofcourse I am just listening to my flesh and brain.

[40days40years]

Here is an update. Ted is going to be a counselor (http://www.redorbit.com/news/oddities/1044657/fallen_pastor_seeks_financial_support/index.html?source=r_oddities).

[xman3]

When I went to school, to help pay for it, I actually tried something called work. It didn't occur to me to advertise for other's who actually do work to just give me the money instead. Can't judge his heart from over here, but the notion that somehow other's should just support him leaves me wondering why he still thinks he is entitled to free money from those he so blatently lied to in the past. GET A JOB TED!

[jbkrems]

xman3,

Ted does have a job. Its counseling on behalf of Tommy Barnett's Phoenix Dream Center Church. But he has to raise support. Well --- here's the thing --- #1 he should not be contacting his previous supporters at New Life, and #2 Barnett and company in Phoenix should be coaching him on this rather than letting him do his own thing.

[xman3]

He does not have to raise support. He is choosing to raise support. Many people go to school (especially with 2 people) and work at the same time.

If it is an unpaid counseling position in the church, subject to church requirement of support raising, then my personal opinion is that it would be unwise to support his new sanctioned ministry and be quite leery of Tommy Barnett's choices of minister's in his church.

I know nothing of mister Barnett, but Haggerd raising money reeks of unrepentant arrogance to me and for him to be conceling others is disturbing, particularly when he says he's going to school to learn how to do what he's practicing, if it is so. Maybe he could consider selling his 715,000 dollar house. That might help him get started over with money for school.

No matter. God can restore Ted Haggerd and I hope for the best for him down the road. This quick fix and presumption of entitlement so soon doesn't set well with me though. My advice is don't give him a penny just yet. It seems he ought to prove himself over time first, and earn his support the old fashioned way for awhile. That, however, is my own opinion, and God can and will do what he wants with him despite me.

[jbkrems]

xman3,

I think the way that Tommy Barnett's church has this set up is that if you are on staff at his church, then its like being a missionary, and you must raise your own support somehow. I know many Christian organizations that operate this way, and there is nothing wrong with it.

What I think is wrong is not the fact that Haggard is raising support, per se, but the people to whom he is targeting. It would be one thing if he was targeting folks elsewhere. But he is sending the letters to New Lifers, and I think that is inappropriate.

[mcmstaff78]

God can "restore" anyone, but it depends on what one means "restore". There is no way the few short months Ted has been working on his life he has come to a place where he will not create as much damage for his own soul as that of others by attempting to engage it this type of "helping" profession. In fact, if Ted wants to help people, who should be helping in a food kitchen, pantry, homeless shelter, clothing ministry, or some other "ministry" that focuses on physical needs rather than emotional/spiritual. He should never have interaction with spiritually hurting/damaged people on this level again. The temptation to manipulation/control is too great for someone with his history and the potential for further damage to hurting souls to extreme.

[xman3]

Well said MCM. You have expressed much better precicely what I wanted to say, even down to that last line. I get a little wussy sometimes though in not being too harsh.

[matt_hatter]

but Haggerd raising money reeks of unrepentant arrogance to me and for him to be conceling others is disturbing, particularly when he says he's going to school to learn how to do what he's practicing, if it is so.

Doesn't sound wussy to me.

[xman3]

oops.

[jbkrems]

mcmstaff,

I believe Haggard DID violate the sacred trust of public, pulpit ministry. And that is a LONG AND HARD ROAD for recovery and restoration. He is not returning into public ministry, though. He is becoming a private counselor, which is a private ministry. I would be leery to become one of his counselees, but if he is being empowered to do so by Tommy Barnett, I am OK with that, because of Tommy Barnett's reputation in the Kingdom of God --- not because of Haggard personally. Again, I'd personally be leery of Haggard and would not go to him for counseling. BUT --- I do not think one should limit Haggard to only physical needs "ministry." I think that is putting both God and Haggard in a box, and that's not right, either.

On the other hand --- my main issue is who he is asking for donations, i.e. members of his former church. That's just not right to me. He has violated a sacred trust with them --- and so they should not be asked to donate to his ministry.

[osakadan]

Haggard is obviously messed up. Has he suddenly been cured of his personal demons in what is this, 6 months?

He has no right to be counselling anyone.

[osakadan]

Haggard is obviously messed up. Has he suddenly been cured of his personal demons in what is this, 6 months?

He has no right to be counselling anyone.

[jbkrems]

Osakadan: I believe that Haggard can be delivered in 6 months. While I would NOT say he has no right to counsel anyone at the present time, I would definitely be personally opposed to him counseling me --- he needs to do something to regain his credibility, and that is a long and hard road ahead.

[mcmstaff78]

Scriptures indicate the qualifications for ministry. That's not putting God in a box, it's God letting us know what to watch for and who is suited to do spiritual work. Ted isn't (and probably never was).

[jbkrems]

mcmstaff: A biblical counselor is different than an elder (or pastor). I agree that Scriptures do indicate qualifications, etc. for eldership. However, the position that Haggard is taking at Barnett's church in Phoenix is not eldership. Its just a position as a counselor. Is he qualified for that? Depends on what kind of qualifications you're examining. Would I personally want him to counsel me? Of course not. Will others be less discerning? Yes. Is it our responsibility to warn them??? I do not think so.

I do think it is Pastor Tommy Barnett's job to pray and figure out how to protect the counselees. Haggard will be serving under his care, and thus the real responsibility lies with Barnett and his pastoral staff. They need to provide safeguards and proper coaching to Ted Haggard, so that God's will can be accomplished.

[pilgrim]

To everyone?

Did they have Christian counselors in the new testament church?

Wasn't listening and guiding with love the job of the elders and every Christian in the new testament church?

[pilgrim]

To everyone,

Did they have Christian counselors in the new testament church?

Wasn't listening and guiding with love the job of the elders and every Christian in the new testament church?

[jbkrems]

Pilgrim,

Good points indeed. Christian counselors is an invention of modern times, to relieve pastors and elders of their responsibility to counsel and shepherd the flock of God in that way. Also, yes, in the NT church, EVERY Christian has a responsibility to listen and guide and encourage other people --- in effect to counsel.

[pilgrim]

jbkrems,

Thank you for your last post.

You wrote,<font color="ff0000"> "Christian counselors is an invention of modern times, to relieve pastors and elders of their responsibility to counsel and shepherd the flock of God in that way. Also, yes, in the NT church, EVERY Christian has a responsibility to listen and guide and encourage other people --- in effect to counsel."</font>

I fully agree with the contents of your last post.

[mcmstaff78]

Got to confess, I thoroughly disagree. Where in the scriptures does it indicate that "every Christian has a responsibility to listen and guide and encourage other people - in effect to counsel"?

Additionally, what is described is not, "in effect", to counsel, not in any therapuetic sense of the word.

And why would it be a Christian's responsibility to do these things but not to warn others about a person unqualified to counsel, in effect, a wolf in sheep's clothing? Seems that would be far more of a Christian duty then to take upon oneself a task for which one is neither qualified nor graced to do. But presumptuousness seems to be the hallmark of modernity, especially in the more visible religious movements of our day.

[jbkrems]

mcmstaff:

The Scriptures state that we are to "speak the truth in love." Another verse, Col. 3:16 says, "Let the word of Christ richly dwell in you, with all wisdom, teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God." Still another verse, James 5:16 says, "Confess your sins to ONE ANOTHER, and pray for ONE ANOTHER, so that you may be HEALED. The effective prayer of a righteous man availeth much." Mcmstaff, that is a THERAPEUTIC sense of the word that we are all called to do. One other verse, Heb. 10:24-25, says, "Let us consider how to provoke (or stimulate) ONE ANOTHER to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but ENCOURAGING ONE ANOTHER; and all the more as you see the day drawing near." MCM, with all due respect, that passage explicitly tells us that we as believers are to ENCOURAGE ONE ANOTHER, esp. as the Day of the Lord draws near, and it draws nearer everyday, amen?

All Christians, thus, are called to encourage one another, to listen and guide, etc. It is this sense of the word "counseling" that ALL Christians are called to participate in, and to which Pilgrim and I are celebrating. It is the ministry of the Christian counselor, which is in fact a modern invention (there is no office of the Christian counselor in the Scriptures, MCM), that you are discussing, and what Pilgrim and I are saying is that there is no biblical ministry of the Christian counselor. It is not a position of eldership or an "office" given in Eph. 4:11, et seq., either. Instead, it is something that modern Christianity has invented, to point people to professionals who can listen and counsel them, when really EVERYONE is called to do that as well.

[mcmstaff78]

Once again we see an exercise in making words mean whatever one wants in order to fit a preconceived notion of what someone wants to be true.

[xman3]

Ted Haggard has experience, age, and years of practice in couseling others to his advantage here. I don't necessarily think he would cousel badly because he lives badly. He has a lack of character and lying, and a mysteriously quick return to ministry oriented work too quickly against him. I think he must prove himself worthy over time because the negatives are too significant to overlook.

I see examples every day on factnet why every Christian should not councel others. I see quite a few here. If we ought all do that, they don't need support raising staff to do it. if it's only those called or chosen, then this was a bad choice in my opinion, but not because I don't think he could help some people. All the scammers help some folk, and scam others. All the deceived folk help some, but lead others on their same path. At what price do we overlook the bad to gain the good. You are very good, jbk, at seeing and defending the good (as you see it) of many, but you seem quite obtuse in dealing with any negatives, as if somehow the Lord will punish you if you say anything negative, true or not.

MCM has again pointed out what you are doing. For example, the scripture you choose ou of James specifically is included in a direct reference to calling for the ELDERS of the church. This not only does not support your contention, but actually supports a notion that these things ought to be left to elders. Maybe it says that, maybe it doesn't. I'm no expert, but that's what I see.

I somewhat agree that Haggard is Barnett's problem. He's either not too good at choosing his councelors or he see's something I don't here. I don't care enough to worry really, but the fact he was raising money got me chiming in.

[jbkrems]

mcmstaff: I do not think Pilgrim and I are doing that. I think this is what we think the Bible means in those specific verses.

Xman3: I agree that Haggard does have experience in the area of counseling others. He was a pastor for many many years before he fell. I agree with you, at least personally, that he does need to prove his character over time so that he can be trusted once again. I am glad that Barnett is not placing him in pulpit ministry, but personally, I would not want Haggard to be my private Christian counselor come October when he joins the staff at Barnett's Phoenix Dream Center Church. Of course, unfortunately those he does counsel will have no idea about where he's been recently.

Xman3, let me respond to this statement: "You are very good, jbk, at seeing and defending the good (as you see it) of many, but you seem quite obtuse in dealing with any negatives, as if somehow the Lord will punish you if you say anything negative, true or not." I do not believe the Lord would punish me if I would say something negative. However, I prefer, because I believe in seeking after grace and mercy, to give individuals, even fallen ones, the benefit of the doubt. I am not a suspicious person, of anyone. I have been the target of suspicion before personally. I know what that feels like, as a church staff person, and to have other staff people, because of their own insecurities, and immaturity in the faith, distrust you for no real reason. I've been there on that side of the fence, and its not a pleasant experience. So, I would rather err on the side of grace, and be inclusive, and let someone serve in his calling. Clearly, if I had my druthers, Haggard would never serve in the pulpit again. But that isn't my call. God is Sovereign and God is the Judge.

A related issue, and Scripture, is the verse, "Touch not My anointed." I do not believe that Christians should speak ill of other Christians, regardless of whether the Christian is in "ministry" or not. I believe we ALL have a responsibility to preserve the good name and reputation of each other. It is very much like Ronald Reagan's 11th Commandment: Thou shalt not tarnish the reputation of a fellow Republican. I would say, "Thou shalt not tarnish the reputation of thy fellow believer."

As regards to James 5:16, its not a direct reference to elders in the church. That is the verse above (James 5:14-15). Looking at the entire passage, verses 14 and 15 deal with the responsibilities of elders to pray for the sick, and then as a comparative, verse 16 is an instruction to the entire body of Christ --- to EVERY CHRISTIAN --- "Confess your sins to ONE ANOTHER, and pray for ONE ANOTHER so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man availeth much." It does not say, "Confess your sins to an elder," or "The effective prayer of a righteous elder..." This verse is for everyone, and NOT in the context of elders as verses 14 and 15 are. That's what I see.

Lastly, I agree that Haggard's raising money is a problem. If he was not targeting New Lifers, then it would not be news. But becase he is targeting members of his former congregation, that's wrong and raises eyebrows all around --- even I think its wrong (and yes, I am saying its a negative and inappropriate).

[40days40years]

I am going to sound like a liberal here but Haggard will not be in the pulpit and he does have a right to a career. Assuming Ted gets things straightened out with God, he can help others and relate in a special way to people in a way most here could not. I do think it is way to early for him to counsel about sins of the flesh though.

Haggard started and ran one of the most successful churches in the nation. He must have great insight in how to deal with difficult people and general things like failure and unimaginable success. He may be just the person to counsel a burnt out pastor of a mega church who is in despair or a CEO who dominates others in a large organization in an ungodly way. He might be someone who could counsel a suicidal business man who had everything and then lost it?

I don't know Ted but God did have mercy on David and David lied also and he murdered too.

As far as it being wrong for Ted to ask others to consider helping him out financially? If I had been born again under Teds ministry, maybe I would consider helping him out if I liked him. If I had to choose between helping Ted out or helping Copeland buy another private jet ? I would help Ted out if I thought he was sincere and on the right track. Look at all the ministers who live very high on the hog and rip off widows? and that is not rebuked but it is o.k to say Ted asking for temporary help is wrong? At least those who help out Haggard know where their money is going and for what purpose unlike many of those who give to popular ministries thinking their giving to the Lord when they are really giving so the leaders can line their pockets.

[40days40years]

jbk said:<font color="0000ff"> Good points indeed. Christian counselors is an invention of modern times, to relieve pastors and elders of their responsibility to counsel and shepherd the flock of God in that way. Also, yes, in the NT church, EVERY Christian has a responsibility to listen and guide and encourage other people --- in effect to counsel.</font>

40/40: I do agree that it is the responsibility of believers to listen, guide and encourage but there are many counselors out there, that are far better prepared to deal with certain issues then many pastors. Christian counselors are not a cop out to relieve ministers of their responsibilities, their a necessity and depending on the problem a dedicated trained counselor may be a superior alternative to a busy Christian pastor or elder who can not relate and does not have enough knowledge to deal with a rape victim, cult victim, incest victim..... fill in the blank.

In fact I think it would be irresponsible for many pastors to not encourage the use of trained counselors at times.

[xman3]

Maybe that verse says what you say. Maybe it doesn't. I am merely pointing out it's location. I don't think it says what you have concluded at all, but that's my opinion.

The touch not my annointed scripture has nothing to do with Haggard or any other of these ministers. Just another manipulatively used verse by people who want to think they are annointed and don't want to be questioned by the flock.

I think it's good to merciful and graceful towards people. I am too. In saying that, I have no problem speaking out against financial impropriety in the church or towards ministers. There is a good reason why Jesus spent most of His time talking about faithfulness with money rather than heaven or hell or sin or the kingdom etc... Because greed in the ministry and the temptations of turning the gospel into a means of gain were prevelant then as He knew they would be today. Jesus knew it, Paul knew it, and God knows it.

You post in all of these matters as if all that matters is whether the person actually conciously is choosing to bilk people. You talk of giving the benefit of the doubt, when the overwhelming evidence leaves no doubt, unless you are clinging to some twisted notion that pretending to be blind to their abuse is the high road. I'm glad Jesus never chose that road in dealing with the religious people. He read them the riot act over and over to get them to change, knowing they would crucify Him anyway, and extended the grace and mercy to the humble and to the sinner.

Jesus, the author of grace and mercy, called them every name in the book, and did it publicly all the time. There was nothing unmerciful or graceful when Jesus did it, and there is not necessarily anything graceless or unmerciful when someone does it now.

As a side note, even if someone is wrong in their indictments, but pure in their motivations, you ought to be defending their right to say what they will just as strongly as you defend Haggard, Meyers, Copeland, or any of the others. Give them the benefit of the doubt that they might be right, just as yoyu expect them to give the benefit of the doubt.

You can't do that though, because you have decided that they are wrong through your "discernment". I think you lose any war of my verses versus your verses with people here. There are so many more scriptures that prove these discussions are legitimate. You keep throwing out the tired old verses that don't even say what you claim, ripped out of their context, and ignore almost every piece of evidence and scripture others use. It doesn't make your wrong, and I agree with you often, but it does not make your case any stronger in my opinion.

Me, I hate financial abuse and I hate hypocrisy in ministry. I don't care if Haggard in particular councels or raises money. I just don't think it's right and is a bad idea, but it is, as you say Barnett's situation now. He's probably pretty good, and Haggard didn't lose his call and future over this in my judgement of scripture, so who knows. Maybe he is ready, but it did stir me up enough to post.

I'm not even sure you disagree with what a lot of people post here (since , for example you agree with me in that he ought not be raising money as he is), as much as you seem to disagree with the fact that they do so in the first place. On the one hand, because your postings so accurately mirror what I might have said 5 years ago, I understand where you are coming from. On the other hand, I have learned to accept the fact that though certain aspects of various minitries ae great and very appealing to me, there are also sometimes serious problems in these ministries that can't be overlooked and shoved under the rug through the use of a few verses that don't mean what we've been taught they mean, usually by the people using them for their benefit.

[dust]

It looks like there is a lot more to the story, here. (http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=76257)

[jbkrems]

40: I basically agree with much of what you said. Personally, I think it is wrong for Ted to approach his former congregants for money, because of the emotional issues there. Even the current New Life overseers think that is not appropriate. However, I do not find it a problem for Haggard to approach others to raise financial support for his ministry.

Oh I absolutely agree that Christian counselors are a necessity. I was not trying to say that we should not have Christian counselors, because we in fact SHOULD have Christian counselors. But it IS a modern invention, as the Christian answer to secular psychologists and counselors. And that was my point.

Xman3: If you were a minister (a pastor), would you want someone going around tarnishing your reputation? Even if you had fallen into sin??? I believe the "Touch not My anointed" verse applies to EVERY Christian. In other words, it is not just leaders who need to be protected. We ALL need to depend and rely on others to protect our good name and reputation as Christians. The Scriptures say, "Love covers a multitude of sins." The Scriptures say that we are restore those who sin. So, we are not to rub someone's sin in their face, or expose it --- but we are to protect each other's reputation. No matter WHO you are (leader or follower).

I do have a problem when people are suspicious, and speak out against other ministers (e.g. about a minister's finances), when the person does not even contribute into the minister's finances. For instance, you do not have a right to complain about Joyce Meyer's finances if you do not contribute to her ministry. Suspicion is sin, and its wrong. It is the source of much division in the church, and it needs to be avoided at all costs. Protect the unity, etc.

Dust: Looks like there is going to be a disagreement between Barnett and Ware, etc.

[40days40years]

According to the link from Dust it says The church leadership agreed to continue paying Haggard his salary for a year in exchange for Haggard agreeing not to speak publicly about the scandal and for his family to leave Colorado Springs and the ministry altogether.

Does'nt the above sound like something EN would do? It reads like the Greg Ball/Champions for Christ thing in a way.

40/40: Teds old church got off real cheap and this is not just an ordinary church, to heck with em for whining about the email. Perhaps Ted should of just opened up a web page asking for help? In one way I actually kind of feel sorry for Haggard I bet Haggard signed this agreement because he quickly wanted this thing to go away and he was embarrassed and he wanted to do the right thing.

Now a year later reality is setting in, his church support is ending soon, he is moving away from a place he loves and his "baby" the church he founded is firmly under the control of others. I mean maybe Ted feels he has to do what he has to do and look out for his own interest here because these folks won't? I mean Ted agreed to put himself under a gag order and not talk about the scandal and that is the main thing that people might want to hear about$$$

Haggard is moving and he has kept his mouth shut concerning the scandal. This is America and if some members of Haggards old church are fond of him and want to help him out? - that is their choice. It does look like Ted did step in it again though when he tried to use a charity (associated with a controversial man) as a conduit for support, he should have just done his support raising on his own.

[jbkrems]

40: Let me clarify something. When it said "ministry altogether" it was just referring to any involvement in New Life Church, and not future involvement in some other ministerial capacity, e.g. Barnett's church.

And I do not think this is to cover it up. Rather, I believe it was to protect Ted and to protect the congregation of New Life Church, to limit any future damage, etc. And Ted is not discussing the scandal with this e-mail letter, just requesting donations. Big difference, amen?

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

mcmstaff: I do not think Pilgrim and I are doing that. I think this is what we think the Bible means in those specific verses. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Well, I wasn't referring to Pilgrim. But some folks read whatever they want and filter the scriptures as they see fit so it matches they're preconceptions. It's a bad habit. Some people never learn to break it. I think that is why teachers will have a stricter judgment.

[mcmstaff78]

Jonathan, did you know believers in the early Church actually did confess their sins in service to each other? Then the priest would pray the prayer of forgiveness.

Of course, the "effectual prayer" is of a righteous man - not just any believer, but one who has borne the fruit of relationship with Christ. That would seem to leave Ted out, now wouldn't it?

[xman3]

If I were a pastor, I would not want anyone going around tarnishing my reputation. I hope that I would be above reproach, but that's not really possible in this age of perceptions of right and wrong and a strongly anti-Christian media. I do not believe the scripture touch not my annointed means every Christian.

I do see your point on love covering a multitude of sins and much of what is on factnet is dicey. Maybe I occasionally cross the line, maybe I don't, but that is between me and God as I see it. I'm mostly satisfied with my take on Haggard and JM. I don't begrudge you your opinion though so I accept that's what you believe and won't belabour it.

I don't rub repented of sin in anyones face. I might occasionally rub continuing sin in their face, if that's what a factnet post is. There's a lot of other bible principles and things to consider in addition to the things you bring up that enter into these situations. I always consider the balance of your view in my postings, but that's only a part.

All in all, though I don't agree with you in regards to finances in particular, I appreciate a reminder that it is not always necessary to address everything. Those scriptures may not always say what you say they do, but they certainly mean what they say. I'm pretty limited on the threads I jump in on actually, but as you see, I'm like Jesus. Money stuff just bugs me more than most, because it is an indication of so much more.

I don't think love covering a multitude of sins means that we are to protect the reputations of our leaders at all costs. Look at the history of EN, and you will find many situations where this was done at the expense of others. I don't think we ought to repeat tittilating gossip and such just because we have a bug up our butt about some minister or ministry, but there are countless cases of unrepentant sin and ongoing impropriety that should be addressed.

I also disagree with your notion that anyone doesn't have the right to comment on finances if they don't support them. First off, that's rather silly since my thoughts are clearly reasons why I won't support JM or TH. If I supported them, I wouldn't have them.

Secondly, anyone who has spent time listening to them, praying for them, and believing them has every right to voice their concern if something comes to light that sheds doubt on any aspect of their character or faithfulness. I am almost aghast that you would actually think the only ones who should comment are those giving them money.

Anyway, there is some food for thought in your's and 40's posts. I believe Ted has a ways to go though, but Barnett (the controversial minister?) seems to be responsible now. Truth be told, I consider him small potatoes right now and was mostly just commenting because oddly there was a thread on him here, and I had just read where he was raising support, which I found mildly disturbing, but interesting.

[jbkrems]

mcmstaff: I agree with you, teachers DO have a stricter judgment. Amen.

No, I didn't know that. Thank you for the history lesson, seriously. That is very interesting, because of modern-day privacy concerns and what not. I think the modern-day church has so departed from the first century church that it is not even funny. The truth is the church has held hands with the world too much. That's really sad and unfortunate, amen?

Actually, I believe that because Ted is made righteous in Christ, so long as he has repented of his sin to Jesus, and been made new again, then Ted is a righteous believer, just as anyone else who lives a repentant lifestyle before God. And that is basically my point, that the "righteous believer" mentioned in James 5 need not be an elder or a pastor, but can be any Christian who is in right standing (repentant heart) before God. Does that make sense?

Xman3: I believe every Christian is an ambassador of Christ, and God's anointed. I do not believe in the clergy/laity distinction that has permeated the church. I do believe that pastors (and other church leaders) do have, according to Eph. 4, a special responsibility in shepherding the flock of God, and equipping everyone for ministry, including other pastors and church leaders.

Xman3, I do respect your posts, in this thread, and the JMM thread. While we may disagree on some issues, I do believe your views are balanced, and that is a good thing.

I actually agree that we should not protect the reputation of leaders at all costs. I do believe in the concept of "unsanctified loyalty," which unrighteously cost Jonathan his life because of his association with Saul. I do believe that there comes a time when a minister is in unrepented sin, yet remains in the pulpit, and from which we should separate ourselves, so that we do not hinder our own walk with God, and become a "Jonathan" because of our connection with a "Saul." Does that analogy make sense?

As regards to the finances stuff, I will comment on that in the JMM thread.

[mcmstaff78]

Well, I don't believe James is speaking about any "positional righteousness" or such other theological fiction. Remember, the Apostle James is the one who wrote "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." and "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." So, it's pretty apparent that the Apostle means someone actually righteous, i.e. whom the Grace of God has purified, illumined and, to some extent, glorified. The Greek word translated "effectual" is "energeo" and when you read the Greek NT it references the energies of God. All of this communicates that the Apostle is speaking of real, active, substantive experience - not anything "positional" at all.

[jbkrems]

mcmstaff: How does one become righteous, if not in a "positional" way - ??? Do you believe that when one fully repents of their sin they are in right standing before God - ??? Or is something else required, in your view, to be considered "righteous" - ???

[firstgarden]

xman3 - I'm new to this forum. But as I read the posts here, I appreciate the spirit in which you say things.

Blessings,
Fg

[xman3]

Well welcome to this forum Fg, and thanks for those kind words. I appreciate them.

Blessings back at you

xman