Jesus Camp The Movie [Archive]

ginger1

09-17-2006, 05:30 AM

I have known current children who are so burnt out by their parents zeal. I made it to a point I will NOT do that to my kids. I have seen children rebel. As young as they are , they are definitely guillible. The last thing I want to do is to make my kids hate God when they grow up.
I tell stories to my son, the things God did in our lives. He currently is 13 on his own join a bible study of another church. I did not force him nor train him like that on the movie. Just told him stories what great things God did to us. He loves God and volunteer on his own to help.
I have only met his bible study group couple of times in 3 years. Which he met at school, I made sure its not part of EN , thats the only concern I have.

Kids can get burnt out by their parent's zeal. I will not make that mistake.
I have seen parents who get excited that their kids read their bible. Giving testimonies after testimonies in church... There was once I used to think why does my kids don't do that.They do not like to read period LOL ! Then I saw the compassion , mercy , love and kindheartness of my son toward the poor, senior citizens, underpriviledge kids. i think thats worth far a lot more than reading the bible. Or getting trained like that on the movie.

philiprosenthal

09-17-2006, 07:24 AM

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

I did a bit of a google search on the film plot. It seems kids are inspired to fight abortion and other evils in society. What is the problem? Would you rather they watch MTV and CNN and get indoctrinated with post-modern humanism? Would you rather they get taught the idea that homosexuality and fornication are okay? Are they not teaching God's commandments to children as he told us to (Deuteronomy 6).

I haven't seen the film and maybe there are some problems with the group they filmed - there are always a few errors with every movement. But sending kids off to camps to learn a Biblical Worldview is a good thing to do. A group that I have been recommended in the USA is Summit MInistries www.Summit.org (http://www.Summit.org)

I would rather say it is irresponsible and disobedient to scripture to send your kids to a secular school without at least giving them alternative understanding of truth via Christian sources of education.

I think we must differentiate those here who disagree with EveryNation because they think EveryNation has in some ways gone off track from Biblical Christianity - and those who are in rebellion against Biblical Christianity themselves.

robert_unknown

09-17-2006, 07:55 AM

sometimes i am happy that i am living in "dark europe".

robert_unknown

09-17-2006, 08:02 AM

phil, i think the problem is rather with the intention to involve them into political activism (alreaday at the age of 6!), and to make "soldiers for Gods army" out of 6 year old kids. where do you draw the line between real and healthy christian worldview and livestyle and fanatic NOLR indoctrionated and perhaps even cultic "christian religion"? i hav emy doubts, that it produces spirituality, when children are transformed into little minni-me´s and clone´s... lets see. its just a trailer. more information on this subject is needed...

jbkrems

09-17-2006, 08:50 AM

Phillip: Right on. There's really no problem.

Robert: Do you not believe that God is looking for those to join His army? There is an old hymn, "Onward Christian soldier, marching onto war."

What's wrong with involving children in political activism at a young age, esp. for social causes like abortion that hopefully everyone here at FactNet agrees is abominable?

Has anyone here actually seen this movie???

If not, then most of you are judging a book by its cover.

I am going to see the movie on Tuesday night (I already ordered my tickets), and if anyone is interested in an objective perspective following then, please let me know.

another_brick_in_the_wall

09-17-2006, 09:38 AM

robert_unknown,
well said in your previous statement. that is exactly my point.

philliprosenthal,
with your last statement, it shows that you still don't get it. the trailer shows classic cult indoctrination, black/white world view, us vs them, loaded language = CULT. Just because they are holding the Bible as their "weapon" doesn't make it valid.

and doesn't it bring chills seeing these 6-year-olds spouting out terminology like "God's Army", dressed in battle fatigues, "we are the generation when Jesus will come", "we are the chosen generation".

No matter how you look at it: This is NOT healthy.

Truth is that the concept of cult has transformed American Christianity over the last 20 years.

We all must vote the "right way", hang out with the "right people", only say the "right things" because the cool, megachurch pastor in the hip clothes and the Janet Jackson microphone has a way of making fun of those who are "not apart of us"....so we chuckle, be happy that we go every Sunday and Wednesday to hand-clap, be entertained all in the name of indoctrination.

This is not healthy Christian worldview.

Folks, at the movie theater yesterday I saw another trailer to another riveting docu-film called, "The U.S. vs John Lennon". The trailer added the much-respected phrase, "Those who don't remember the past are destined to repeat it".

Folks, it is not enough to simply remember the past. It is key that as we remember the past, we don't simply stand along the wall and allow the past to repeat itself.

Each go-around will only prove to be nastier.

"Hey, Teachers. Leave them kids alone" - Pink Floyd.

Peace.

matt_hatter

09-17-2006, 11:37 AM

The problem I saw with this thing is the kids frothing at the mouth, rolling around, (this is hyperbole Krems, look it up) obviously following the lead of some adult, and out of that group comes the next Binny Hinn. Against abortion and other evils? So what! So is my son and his youth group! But I look at those kids, and look at the ones I know, and think that the ones that I know will have a much better chance of affecting change in America, due to their upbringing and yes, social skills.

Those poor kids in that movie may eventually become the disaffected adults who are the parasitic members of a religion that does not teach people how to change the world around them. They feed on one another, even though they teach to "go into the world" the majority "go into the seminar" to see what "new thing" they can learn among their peers. I can spot the "wacky-type" charismatics in a heartbeat. They are usually people who are the least able to do the "front-line" discipleship, because they are unwilling to make friends first with "worldly" people. Based on Krems postings, he appears to be a good example of this kind of person... unable to affect change in the marketplace, because he would be too busy thinking of them as carnal. Christ, our example was the total opposite...the common folks, the sinners, were drawn to Him, and He to them. Discipleship is most effective on the ground, on your job, at your school, one on one. NOT from a "look at me" convention.

Speaking of which, the recent documentary on Binny Hinn that someone posted on the board was so sickening, and sadly I see a group of naive children falling for the same stuff.

Phil, when Krems becomes your fan, you may want to rethink your position! LOL Phil, our walk with Christ is about PERSONAL relationship and change, NOT personal causes and politics. THAT was MCM's problem, and sounds like EN's too.

That's my comments.....back to the trail.

40days40years

09-17-2006, 11:52 AM

brick: Ted Haggard, is the head of the powerful evangelical lobby, the National Association of Evangelicals, and speaks to President Bush and his advisors every Monday. Declaring that liberalism is dead, he says the evangelicals have already won the culture war,

Boy that guy sounds a little dim, we have not won the culture war, we may be losing it and sadly liberalism is not dead but hey I will try to throw a few spikes into it.

Robert, most evangelicals think the Antichrist will rise to power in dark europe I think they may be right. All the big A has to do is stand up and talk about global warming and blame it on American christians, then he will say we need more world control to save the planet and the euro dummy lemmings will follow shouting their approval. Euros are led around like kindergartners.

lablady2

09-17-2006, 11:59 AM

Personally, I'm glad it's out there for all to see.

robert_unknown

09-17-2006, 12:37 PM

"Robert: Do you not believe that God is looking for those to join His army? There is an old hymn, "Onward Christian soldier, marching onto war."

What's wrong with involving children in political activism at a young age, esp. for social causes like abortion that hopefully everyone here at FactNet agrees is abominable? "

Jonathan, I believe that there are better ways to teach christian values to children. I have my problems with it, when adults want to produce clones out of children. children shall not just "copy" some behaviour that adults like or that their parents or their pastor thinks is right. Its in my opinion much better to teach them values by living them and by answering their questions honestly.

this whole thing remembers me on the communists in china. they do the same thing to their kids, just to make them become "good comrades".

in all of this people forget or ignore the fact, that people, and also children, have their own will and the right to question things, to make mistakes, and to develope a worldview by themselves.

parents and teachers shall assist by giving them the right answers.

i have BIG propblems with little "soldiers" who behave like WoF preachers.

Looks nice, but will they really have their hearts right and their values right once they mature?

Its like with grown ups... its not always the guy who screams and yells loudest at the intercesion meeting who is the most spiritual person.

in my eyes thats just another religous thing. but still... i have to get more informations about it.

robert_unknown

09-17-2006, 12:39 PM

what i want to say is this:

i rather see values developed within my child, than just an outward behaviour.

however - of course one doesnt necesarily exclude the other...

robert_unknown

09-17-2006, 12:42 PM

my son would NEVER engage in this! he just is too shy. is he a bad christian then?

in my opinion the children get trained to "behave right" rather then developed charakterly.

charakter is what counts finaly!

robert_unknown

09-17-2006, 01:01 PM

"Do you not believe that God is looking for those to join His army?"

first of all, Jonathan, I believe children shal be children, and learn to know God as their FATHER, and not as their general!
thats the biggest problem in WoF - everything is abaout war. whats about family? therefore its so cold, so heartless and sometimes crude in many WoF churches!

exactly like in an army...

jbkrems

09-17-2006, 01:29 PM

Responding to some of the comments above...

Brick: The Bible has a "black/white" worldview, and there is nothing wrong with that. Sin is evil. Abortion, for example, is a sin, and is murder. Period. No question or "gray area" about it. Even Jesus Himself taught that you are either for Him or against Him. And in the Book of Revelation, God said that if you are "lukewarm," He will spit you out of your mouth. So, my God, the God of the Bible, is a "black and white" God.

Matt: Did you actually see the film, or are your comments based solely on the trailer???

40: I think Pastor Haggard is probably one of the most balanced Christian statesmen we have. There are maybe 2-3 others I can mention: Pastor Jack Hayford, Pastor Billy Joe Daughtery, and Pastor Joseph Garlington.

Robert: So, being radical is not a good thing within Christianity??? I think I disagree with that, we need to be radical.

I understand your concern with the inward behavior and heart values over the outward appearance. I agree, actually, that's important. Unfortunately, we really don't know.

No, just because one is shy does not make one a "bad Christian." Some of the most reserved Christians I know (these are adults) win the most converts because they control what they say.

Finally, God is Father, and He's the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lords. Jesus is portrayed in the Second Coming as a military general. The Bible is very clear that Jesus will return with heaven's army, and will destroy Satan and his evil minions and forces, forever.

Is everything about war? Yes, because we are in the Last Days. What about family? We're a family, too. I believe Christianity is about being a huge spiritual family, JUST AS MUCH as about being an army. It is a "both/and" proposition, not an "either/or" proposition.

robert_unknown

09-17-2006, 01:51 PM

"Robert: So, being radical is not a good thing within Christianity??? I think I disagree with that, we need to be radical. "

i think YOUR version of beeing radical might be something I wont want. and specially not for my children. beeing radical is something different than praying in tongues, lifting hands and confessing things. you will find out by your own!

" in the Second Coming as a military general."

but until this day he is - at least for his children - a father! and for the sinner the sheperd who calls them!

and in His second coming he might be a general for his angels, a judgte for the sinner (and the saints), but still a loving father for his children. what the heck has this "army" stuff to do with christianity anyhow?

"Is everything about war? Yes, because we are in the Last Days. "

you are a good NOLR desciple! you dont understand that GOD has already won the war? there is nothing his "army" can add to this! or about which war are you talking anyhow?

lets leave the war to the moslems, and the kingdom to the saints.

robert_unknown

09-17-2006, 02:08 PM

Jonathan,

my wife grew up in a wonderfull baptist family. she never was loud, nor did she fit in the WoF picture of beeing "radical". But over the last 10 years she has shown more faith, more faithfullnes, more solid chrakter than the most christians I know, me included!

she did not fit into the piture of a "radical soldier" of "Gods Army", but her core-values have been right!

She did not go to a christian school, and learned to stand firm for her faith (in a marxistic environement!)...

of course young peopel need to stand against abortion, for purity and for Gods truth in genereal! She did this! In her school, while all the other girls where having sexual relations with young men.
And she did this all the years of our marriage that we walked throught the valley of the shadow of death (often!)!

How deep the values really are, You will find out only, when you go through difficulties. I promise you there will come things, that You cannot avoid with your "positive confesions". Then your real faith will be shown to you!

my leadership warned me and told me to not marry here, because they thought she is "so passive" and that I need "a woman of faith"!

this guys simply did NOT recognize whats INSIDE of her, just simply because she did not fit in their superficial ideas of beeing "a radical christian".

she however - has never lost her integrity and her faithfullnes to Gods charakter. she has been faithfull, honest and humble, while others, "big" guys, the loud guys, the "faith"-guys fell into sin or broke!

i say to just to bring another point of view into your life...

God looks on the HEART of people! dont forget this! he is not impressed by confessions, and "radical" behaviour of "little soldiers"!

...only to bring some balance in all of this ;)

(Message edited by robert_unknown on September 17, 2006)

pilgrim

09-17-2006, 02:49 PM

Robert_unknown,

You wrote, my leadership warned me and told me to not marry her, because they thought she is "so passive" and that I need "a woman of faith"!

I am so glad that you did not obey these ungodly leaders otherwise they would had succesfully stolen the husband that God had for your wife.

I wonder how many times the UNGODLY leaders may have stolen the husband that God did have for other girls by seducing the men with false doctrines. Probably in the day of judgement God will show them that they have even stolen the husband that God had chosen for the orphans.

miltietoast

09-17-2006, 03:29 PM

robert thank you for your testimony about your wife. My wife sounds like a twin sister of yours and I will choose her to stand by me til I die.
Tertullian said in 200 AD basically that,"the gospel flows from the mind to the garment" IE inside out not outside in,wonder where he got that idea? So an external manifistation may or may not be real. My brother-in law- had a wonderful teaching on the last generation, chosen generation(which I have personally heard for almost two generations,,the world is still full of false prophets) He said "Are we living in the last generation? I do not know, but I know you are living in your last generation." What wisdom! Just wish krems could understand it. He will probably give Daniels generational teaching in response.

robert_unknown

09-17-2006, 06:13 PM

"I am so glad that you did not obey these ungodly leaders otherwise they would had succesfully stolen the husband that God had for your wife. "

i never listened to advice, when i had no echo inside of me, but many people do, because of their wrong understanding about leadership.

the person didnt mean anything bad by saying this. it was just very, very unwise to say this at all...

philiprosenthal

09-17-2006, 06:44 PM

I think one must be careful to differentiate between criticing the goals and actions of a group versus criticising certain excesses or mistakes they might engage with.

I personally cannot see any problem with involving kids in political activism from whatever age. I know a little boy, the son of an activist friend of mine who grew up from nappies and potty training onwards mostly outside an abortion clinic - where his parents protested and preached daily. Thankfully that abortion clinic closed down. Praise God. Did his parents harm him? Or would you rather he grew up watching mindless television and then going to a secular school being brainwashed with sexually explicit music videos, violent computer games and fornication education?

I would put a few constraints about what to expose kids to. I wouldn't show them for example violent abortion movies or explain some of the sexual deviances we fight against till they get a bit older and are able to handle it. I also would try not to expect kids to take the lead in the culture war. Rather let them just tag along with their parents and lead when they are older.

Further I argue that kids are being indoctrinated all the time whether we like it or not. Indoctrination is another word for teaching. The question is what are they being indoctrinated with? Are they being taught to be humanists or taught to be Christians?

Further I cannot see what the objection is to a 'black and white' worldview. That is what the bible teaches on most issues. Right is right and wrong is wrong. There are some issues which are debatable - see Romans 14. But core moral issues are black and white. I think the problem here is that many Christians on this message board my be saved in heart, but have not renewed their mind by re-educating it with the word of God and thus blindly accept what the surrounding culture promotes. To the extent that EveryNation teaches a Biblical Christian worldview, I support them 100%. The trouble has been where they have failed to apply that Biblical worldview. As Jesus said 'Do what they say but don't do what they do because they don't practice what they preach' (Matthew 23). May the EveryNation denomination continue teaching Biblical worldview to everyone of every age.

Where I did however have a problem with the reported plot of the film is that the camp allegedly tried to make the kids anti-government. I haven't seen this, but if true then I feel that is instilling rebellion contrary to Romans 13. As Christians we should attack evil perpetrated by government, but not attack government per se.

Anyway the major problem in our culture is not CHristian kids going off to Christian camps - but Christian kids going off to secular schools where they are indoctrinated with all kinds of wickedness without their parents trying to contradict or give them alternative supplementary education or restrict what the teacher teaches. The result is children of Christians apostasising and abandoning the faith in massive numbers. I think their parents are mostly to blame for putting them in such an environment.

lablady2

09-17-2006, 07:06 PM

Phillip: My grandchildren have been to Christian school. I hate to break your heart, but many of the same sinful things that are found in the secular schools are found in the Christian schools. It's discouraged and preached against more, and sometimes it's under cover a little better, but it's there and your naive if you think it's not. That's the problem with humans; they take their humaness wherever they go. Messy, isn't it?

pilgrim

09-17-2006, 07:29 PM

robert_unknown,

You wrote, never listened to advice, when i had no echo inside of me, but many people do, because of their wrong understanding about leadership.

I fully agree with you that you should only listen to advice if the Holy Spirit shows you that the advice is correct.

Unfortunately in Maranatha you couldn't do this. If you wanted to marry a girl and the leaders said that it was not the right girl for you, even if you had been friends for some time and you got on extremely well together, you were not allowed to marry her. If you start a pure and godly relationship with her without the leaders' approval the leaders would normally break the relationship straightaway. I have seen relationships brutally broken in Maranatha.
I remember one relationship that was broken in this way. The girl involved, who was also a good friend on mine was extremely hurt. Later they both got married to someone else. Today sadly they are both divorced/ separated.
Also the leaders were not consistent in this method of false discipline because sometimes they would allow the marriage to take place even after they disobeyed the leaders.
I have been personally very hurt in the area of submitting names to get married in Maranatha.
The person I submitted a name to get married to was a close friend we used to flirt together and we got on extremely well but the leaders said it was not from God after praying for over four months. Eventually he started flirting with another girl. I never managed to find out for certain if he ever submitted my name as well!

Later in 1985 I was involved in another cult where they also have the power to destroy relationships. Ín this cult I had a pure and Godly relationship brutally destroyed by the leaders. It was extremely painful.

jbkrems

09-17-2006, 09:06 PM

Responding again to a few comments...

Robert: Radical. Yeah, this can mean different things to different people. For me, it is a kind of radical, Christian lifestyle that is bold (maybe that is a better word) and passionate for Jesus. It is more than just praying in tongues, lifting hands, and making confessions... it is a way of life that is bold and passionate for Christ.

In terms of what "army" has to do with Christianity, everyone knows the President of the United States (whoever is in that office) operates as Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces in America. Likewise, Jesus, who is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords operates as the Commander-in-Chief of His army. Also, many times in the Scriptures, the name of the Lord is given as "Lord of hosts," and here, "hosts" means "armies." If Jesus is our Lord, we are a part of His army.

We're also a part of God's family and so forth, we can wear multiple hats in the Kingdom of God.

Let me respond to the issue that God has already won the war. We know, in the end, that God wins over the enemy (Satan) and so forth and so on. The question (or issue) is what part we have in that. The Bible is clear there is a reward for winning the souls, and that sort of thing. Also, if there is work to be done, in terms of building the Kingdom of God (winning souls, planting churches, missions, etc.) --- then Satan is out to stop these things from happening. Well, that's why we deal with issues like spiritual warfare. God wins in the end... the question/issue is whether we will help Him do that. He does not NEED our help, but gives us the privilege to co-labor and participate.

Robert, that is interesting about your wife. My pastor is also ex-Baptist, so he probably shares a similar upbringing. He was once not the "radical" type himself, but he's changed. And you're right, God does look at the HEART.

Phillip: I agree with you completely that we must make that differentiation.

However, after watching the trailer, I don't think the camp tries to make the kids anti-gov't. I do not think Pastor Haggard is anti-gov't, and he's a major "star" in the film. We'll see for sure on Tuesday night when I go see it, but I think it is about channelling the gov't in the right direction, rather than just being anti-gov't.

Finally, Phillip, I think that your last paragraph is VERY accurate, and demonstrates the real issue, and I agree with your assessment completely in that respect.

matt_hatter

09-17-2006, 09:09 PM

"I think the problem here is that many Christians on this message board my be saved in heart, but have not renewed their mind..."

"Further I cannot see what the objection is to a 'black and white' worldview"
Phillip

Since you don't identify who you are referring to on this board, I will at least throw my two cents in here, as we seem to see things differently. To accuse someone as needing to renew their mind simply because they don't share your world view is rather shallow, my friend. And to instruct folks on raising children when you are neither married nor have children strikes me as a rather interesting take on things. I will be coming up on 30 years of marriage soon. We have folks in here with grandchildren for goodness sake!

We do have black and white instructives from the Word of God, but sometime in the future, I hope both you and Krems are able to expeience the joy of both marraige and children; your worlds will cease being black and white and will go into full blown technicolor. You will remember and laugh at the days when you thought you had all the answers! I am still searching!
Matt

jbkrems

09-17-2006, 09:16 PM

Matt (and Phillip): I disagree. I think that if someone claims to be a born-again Christian, yet has a "secular" world-view, then the Christian person (who we need to give the benefit of the doubt) needs to renew their mind. In fact, EVERYONE needs to renew their mind, it is a constant process.

Also, I can't wait to get married... although having kids is a different matter. I can wait for that. I want to get married and settled, first.

robert_unknown

09-17-2006, 10:12 PM

"Anyway the major problem in our culture is not CHristian kids going off to Christian camps - but Christian kids going off to secular schools where they are indoctrinated with all kinds of wickedness without their parents trying to contradict or give them alternative supplementary education or restrict what the teacher teaches. The result is children of Christians apostasising and abandoning the faith in massive numbers. I think their parents are mostly to blame for putting them in such an environment."

Do you know Phil, that the first christians believed that the influence of the family is stronger than the secular schools? many hundret years there were no christian schools around, and the parents trusted into the families influence.

i have nothing against christian schools, but I had no christian school, neither had my wife, and we managed it. every child can grow up in a nnchristian environement and keep his/her faith! thats what i believe. we dont need to live in a sort of "subculture" to stay christian.

sure - i will try to get my son into a christian school... why not. it depents much on the teacher.

but parents cannot put the responsabilty of christian education and christian livestyle on teachers or Jesus Camps.

its happening either in the family or nowhere...

matt_hatter

09-17-2006, 10:43 PM

its happening either in the family or nowhere...

Thank you Robert, and AMEN!

ginger1

09-17-2006, 10:45 PM

Phillip I have to disagree with you on this one. This is exactly Phil Bonasso's mentality. His 5 kids were homeschooled with christian curriculum and looked at what happened. I have not even posted at what his other daughters did

"Anyway the major problem in our culture is not CHristian kids going off to Christian camps - but Christian kids going off to secular schools where they are indoctrinated with all kinds of wickedness without their parents trying to contradict or give them alternative supplementary education or restrict what the teacher teaches. The result is children of Christians apostasising and abandoning the faith in massive numbers. I think their parents are mostly to blame for putting them in such an environment."

This is what the bible said. In the Garden of Eden, everything is Perfect. No sin. The Lord's Spirit is among them. YET even in Perfection Man chose to sin in a perfect enviroment.
Yet we looked at Christ and his disciples, at the end in an UNPERFECT enviroment, they CHOSE NOT TO SIN. You can put kids in a christian enviroment and they still WILL MESS UP.

The school's job is to Educate the children, Its the Parents job to teach them HOW TO LIVE in a christian godly life.
Thats why EN and Maranatha is so messed up. They tried to educate you and tried to tell you how to lived, when it is the Holy Spirit's job to teach us how to lived in a God's way.

I grew up with ungodly parents. I went to an all chinese school where 99.9 % of the students are buddhist. I was in chinese school from kindergarten to high school. Yet in the midst of that, God pick me. I never seen a bible growing up, never even exposed to one.

matt_hatter

09-17-2006, 10:58 PM

It is the miraculous act of grace that He gifts us with, not some cause, process, or political action. He does not need us to accomplish His will. Folks who have this attitude (think they are instrumental for reform) walk around with undue burdens and have a tendency towards discouragement, in my opinion.

Still waiting to hear some "Mary" stories, Phil, have heard plenty of your "Martha" tales. Would love to hear a personal revelation of God's love in your life, bro.

jbkrems

09-17-2006, 11:48 PM

Robert: And that is why, most likely, when I have children, that I will either home school them, or send them to my church's private school.

mcmstaff78

09-18-2006, 12:21 AM

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
(John 18:36)

coppertree

09-18-2006, 01:29 AM

Hi Matt
I agree with you. Revival truly starts with us, repenting and getting to know Him. He is the head of His church. He does have it all in His hands, as the children's song says.}

j2theperson

09-18-2006, 02:48 AM

As a person who attended a Christian school from kindergarted through ninth grade, I would not send my children (pretending I'll ever have any) to a Christian school. Some people here don't think Christian indoctrination is a bad thing, but I can attest that my own christian indoctrination has resulted in life-long mental problems and estrangement from my family--neither of which are things I think Christ desires. It is a terrible thing for a child to be valued by the adults around her not because of who she is but because of what she does and believes--which is what indoctrination ammounts to. Whether or not what they taught was true, the fact is my teachers and my parents only accepted me so long as I was able to preach the party line, keep up appearances, and make Christianity (and, along with that, them) look good. No child should be forced to live with that sort of crushing, overpowering burden.

ulyankee

09-18-2006, 03:07 AM

Is this what Jim Laffoon was talking about (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/15971.html?1143187207) when he said this generation would be sent into the sewer?

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

And there is a generation of men and women coming out of this family [cheers] DISCIPLED, ACCOUNTABLE, TRAINED, FILLED WITH EXCELLENCE, ENTERING EVERY AREA OF LIFE, SWIMMING IN THE SEWER, GOING UP THE DARKNESS… to open up the gates to the rest of us. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Is this what Bob Weiner and similar/like minded leaders have birthed?

One would need to see to entire movie to make an informed opinion, but Dominionism is NOT the same as Christianity. As some of our former MCM friends have said, it's a Bizarro version of Christianity. It is ruling AS Christ, not WITH Christ.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

You see, when the enemy finds an apostolic family under authority, when he finds a people who walk as family, with power over the enemy, filled with righteousness yet realizing their great destiny on the earth is not just to shine and not just to look good, that they are there to somehow birth a generation that once they’ve paid the cost to reach every nation they could hand those nations to their children and their grandchildren and say, “NOW RULE THEM!” [applause and cheers] <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

ulyankee

09-18-2006, 03:19 AM

The other thing that was apparent at least in the clips, etc. is the teaching that PEOPLE are the enemy (non-Christians, lukewarm Christians, sinners, etc.) - which is pretty close to how it's practiced in EN and in MCM before that. Family membership has its benefits. But if you aren't in spiritual family...?

But as the apostle Paul reminded us in Ephesians 6, we do not fight against flesh and blood, but powers and principalities - our enemies are SPIRITUAL, NOT HUMAN!

Another Laffoon quote that may be pertinent:

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

When I was at Innsbruck, one night in the middle of the night the Lord began to speak to me and I saw the globe. Explosions of fire, all over it. Wherever there was an explosion, there was a stadium with thousands of young people, but different than I’d ever seen. They weren’t being entertained. They were being equipped. The hotel room was just filled with the sound of a marching army. God said, “Because you’ve asked for the youth of the world I’ve given them to you. And I’m going to give you an army of young people like the world has never seen. And if you preach destiny to them and disciple them, you’ll make history.”

God has given us the hearts of the world’s youth. We might shape them and mold them to go beyond reaching to ruling. I look for the day when God helps us train them and equip them how to think, how to affect their region, how to affect their nation. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

jbkrems

09-18-2006, 05:22 AM

After watching the trailer, I did not see how people were the enemy. Could someone quote me something that would support that statement???

robert_unknown

09-18-2006, 06:25 AM

ah... forget Laffoon. All this propheties that tickle in the ears, but at the end of the day are not fullfilled.

show me, where the bible tells us to "shape and mold" people?! did i miss something?!?

I think education is one thing, but indoctrination is another thing. I have my doubts that God gives us the right to "shape and mold" people. Thats usually HIS job.

God doesnt need a "holy version" of the communist party on earth to reach the nations with the gospel of Jesus Christ!

robert_unknown

09-18-2006, 06:26 AM

Jonathan, You have no idea how much work it is to homeschool children! You better send them to a GOOD christian school. not all christian schools are necesarily good. You really have to be carefull...

jbkrems

09-18-2006, 06:42 AM

Robert:

You want a Bible verse for "shaping and molding" people? Proverbs 27:17, "Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." This is where the Bible tells us to "shape and mold" others.

Also, the purpose of the five-fold ministry in Ephesians 4 is to perfect the saints for the work of the ministry. That includes "shape and mold," too.

Robert, I am more optimistic about home schooling. Actually, the school at my church uses a home schooling curriculum. We could use the same thing at our home, and just do it there. If I am still in Edmond, Oklahoma, I'll send them to the church school, probably... esp. if my wife is an alumnus of that school. But, if I sent my kids to a Christian school, it would be Faith Christian Academy at my church. Otherwise, I'd home school them using the same or similar curriculum.

But this is a LONG WAYS off, since I do not have a wife yet, but that's a GOOD thing... I pray for my future wife daily, that God would lead her, guide her, and direct her, and protect her from temptation. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

robert_unknown

09-18-2006, 06:53 AM

"You want a Bible verse for "shaping and molding" people? Proverbs 27:17, "Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." This is where the Bible tells us to "shape and mold" others. "

ahem. its not a command, its a verse that only describes what is happening when two people fellowship.

it doesnt say "thou said the Lord, go out and shape thy neighbor!" ;)

and when it comes to the fivefold ministry, I definitely do believe that there are certain boundaries, and that "equiping" doesnt mean "shaping and molding".

however... EN will never "shape and mold" my kids!

jbkrems

09-18-2006, 07:08 AM

Robert:

I'm sorry, but I see Prov. 27:17 as more of an exhortation than a description.

I think "equipping" DOES mean discipling or mentoring, in some respect or regard, which can translate to having God use selected men and/or women to shape and mold you. But you have to be willing to submit to that.

Finally, EN will never shape or mold my future kids, either. But my church and its ministerial associations will.

robert_unknown

09-18-2006, 07:42 AM

Proverbs 27:17 is what is happening here between us, Jonathan. I do not believe that I have the commision to sharp you, neither do I think that You have to commision to sharp me. Its just happening as part of our interaction and our relationship here on this website.

jbkrems

09-18-2006, 08:46 AM

Ehhhh...

OK... you win the argument. But here is another verse to ponder.

Hebrews 10:24 says that we are to provoke one another to good deeds, and so forth. I view this verse, and the one in Proverbs not as a commandmant, but an exhortation. That means this is something that we are exhorted and encouraged to do. We are encouraged to have the kind of fellowship that produces what is described in Proverbs 27:17. You are right in that no "commission" is necessary to sharpen one another. However, we are lacking something if we fail to do so.

philiprosenthal

09-18-2006, 09:24 AM

Sorry Robert, but you say the 1st century christians didn't send their kids off to Christian schools. I don't know if this is accurate, but I doubt very much they allowed them to go off to secular schools to get taught paganism. More likely they were homeschooled or went to Christian schools.

I think a problem here is that people take secular pagan schooling and television for granted as if it is normal - and not a toxic and dangerous place for kids to grow up. I think people on this thread are hitting at the wrong enemy. The enemy is secularism - not Christian education. Maybe some bad kids come out of christian schooling but on average I think one is looking at a much better product.

lablady2

09-18-2006, 10:35 AM

Phillip: "The enemy is secularism - not Christian education. Maybe some bad kids come out of christian schooling but on average I think one is looking at a much better product."

Thanks for putting into words the sum total of my experience in MCM. Building a better product.

robert_unknown

09-18-2006, 11:15 AM

"Sorry Robert, but you say the 1st century christians didn't send their kids off to Christian schools. I don't know if this is accurate, but I doubt very much they allowed them to go off to secular schools to get taught paganism. More likely they were homeschooled or went to Christian schools. "

Phil, i am reading a book about church history at the moment, and i am quoting:

----
"Profane Literature is seen in the first 3 centuries with critical distance by the christians. They did not like mythology and inmoral contens. But despite all of this the church of the 4th century does not demand own schools.
Christian children go to pagan schools and universities, where the majority of teachers is still for a long time to come of heathen faith. They fear not about their children, as they trust strongly in the family and in their home culture. They also believe that the situation will change to their advantage more and more, from decade to decade."

Armin Sierszyn, "2000 years - Churchhistory", Part One, Haenssler Theologie
----

As I said - i have nothing against christian schooling, but the danger lies in a gnostic worldview. In my opinion christians (specially the ones I know in the US) try to avoid as much contact to the "world" as possible.

How shall we influnce the world, by developing a mentality of separation?

PERHAPS thats the reason, many preachers want to gain influence in the political arena.

change however ALWAYS comes from the inside of a people, not from the outside.

the great danger, in my eyes, is to concentrate too much on external change than on internal transformation. internal transformation ALWAYS will change a society. external transformation on the other side often brings dictatorship and destroys real freedom.

the emphasis of a christian family must be the training of the character rather than the training of "right behaviour". good charakter always produces good behaviour!

what is it worth, if our kids behave like trained monkeys, who perform outwardly like we want it, but inwardly there are hidden questions and hidden rebellion against it?

if children UNDERSTAND what they believe and if they understand what is right, they will behave right, even if it doesnt fit in our expectations or odeas of behaviour (ie praying like we like it or lifting hands, or shouting hallelujah).

yes - the secular schooling system is not much good! yes - its better to school them privately. still - if there are no other possibilities than public schooling, the influence of the home is still the most important thing in a kids life!

(Message edited by robert_unknown on September 18, 2006)

matt_hatter

09-18-2006, 01:06 PM

Phillip, you seem more interested in building a product than a relationship.

Matt

john_r_jones

09-18-2006, 01:18 PM

As a recent empty nester I'm getting to visit my kids in their new digs and provide laundry service and supplimental nourishment-they come home to do their wash and raid the fridge. As college students they hang out in the Bohemian part of town, Dilly and GAH know the area behind Chimes restaurant. My kids friends are a spectrum of humanity with an empahsis on the artsy crowd. They spent the first few years in Christian school and the Jr High and High School years in public school. The essence of their Christianity is home centered, not in school, nor in church youth group. This being the case they reach out to friends in a genuine way and I couldn't be prouder of them, they're interesting people. Ultimately I trust the work of Jesus in their hearts and the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth which has been the foundation we sought to build in their life. I've written elsewhere about our "Camp" experience and subsequent rescue from said place.

Thanks to all I hope you who have "Product" are enjoying raising them.
John

speakword2004

09-18-2006, 01:29 PM

Having been a teacher at a Christian School and about to send my son to a Christian School next year I would like to make the following points:

1. You get Christian schools and then you get Christian Schools
-some are closed and insular
-some demand salvation for acceptance into the school
-some are more evangelistic and do not exclde people based on prejudice and fear
-some are abusive and horrible
-some are healthy, fair and balanced
-some set out to indocrinate
-some wish to teach using Christianity as a guide with its principles upheld
-some belong in hell
-some can be changed
-some are wonderful

In South Africa, I don't want my son getting mixed messages from his teachers and his parents when he is young and below the age of consent. I want his teachers and I to be in general accord. I don't want his school teachers/leaders to indocrinate him that abortion is fine, underage sex just needs condoms, our constitution is supreme and other ungodlinesses, thank you.

My ideal Christian School is one that partnerships with the parents, is evangelistic and open, has its own constitution and rules separate from a church or the state, nutures the individuals and individual responsibilities, is not moralistic and exlusive and fosters a protective and loving environment that helps equip my child for the world and not make him feel threatened or superior to it.

lablady2

09-18-2006, 01:49 PM

To me, Phillip, you are the protagonist of Near Christianity.

The net goal of your Christianity is indeed product driven. Create the "perfect" Christian: looks good, acts right. It matters very little what sewerage is brewing on the inside of the "product" as long as it appears good and replicates other good-looking product. The problem is that "cosmetic" product is just that: all looks, no substance. God perfects from the inside out, not the outside in.

Phil, a miss is as good as a mile. In other words, Near Christianity is as false as any other
abomination on the face of the earth. Maybe worse.

ginger1

09-18-2006, 02:58 PM

Jbkrem, you just have no idea about homeschooling, I have homeschooled my son for a year and that was it for me. Its easy to say that you want to homeschool, unless you do it yourself. It really depend on people if they are able to do it, I cannot. I have seen flaws in homescooling, First there are warning signs. Kids have tendency not able to socialized with regular kids. So its important that they have friends outside of the home. I had to tell the teacher that my son was homeschooled to warn her what to expect once they go to public school.
Kids would walked out the classrooms and go to the bathroom without telling the teachers.
Some kids have problems paying attention in class.

I have seen my best friend who homeschooled her son for 5 years and it did not turned out well, when he was put in regular christian school. This I think he was kick out for the third time for the last 4 - 5 years. After homeschooling, he was put in christian school , got kick out, then another christian school, got kick out, then to a catholic school, then got kick out, now he is in public school almost gotten kick out. We are still crossing our fingers on this.

We hear a lot of advantages about homeschooling, but we do not hear about disadvantages of homeschooling also.
I do have another girlfriend who homeschooled her daughter and she turned out quite well, her mother is sociable and have exposed her to all kind of things sociably. In church, sports and music.

Jim lafoon's son was homeschooled, once he was put in a christian school, he has problems fitting in, thats what I heard. Even Jim lafoon got mad at his classmates just becasue his son can't fit in , blaming other kids.

The kids I saw who were homeschooled half of the time who entered the world, have a hard time fitting in. Phil Bonasso's daughter turned out that way because she was mostly secluded most of her life.
Every kids would like the opposite gender, they fell in love and have crushes. They do not know how to deal with it. Thats when we as parents comes in. Guide them. Heck I have a 13 year old. We talk to him all the time. I still thank God he plays G.I. Joe and soldier games. He tells me who he likes in school privately.
Homeschooling is not that all good, it depend on the parents and the children. My son refused to go back homeschooling and love his school.
I am just blessed that people in my community are mostly christians so church is pretty strong in our area. Teachers and parents are mostly christians in a public school. Before we moved to this area, the other public school that my son goes to in southern california, the Principal has a prayer request box in his office. And from monday to friday, students from different denominations can come to the flagpole and pray at 6 am in the morning. Thats public high school.

So Not all public school are from the devils or has demons or teaches bad things to kids. Its a stereotypes that ignorant christians put these in.

I know also another parents who pulled her children out of chsitian school and put in public school. You need a lot of money to fund a school, the christian school does not have enough money to fund sciences and things that public school can. It cuts down the quality of education.

So weigh everything first before making any decision before deciding where the kid should go for his education.

ulyankee

09-18-2006, 03:24 PM

JB, to answer your question, this is a partial transcript of the trailer (emphases mine)...

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Becky Fisher: This is a sick old world. Kids, you’ve gotta change things.

Fisher: Boys and girls can change the world? Ab-so-lutely!

Campers: I pledge allegiance to the Christian Flag…

Camp Counselor/Parent?: There are two kinds of people in the world: people who love Jesus, and people who don’t.

Camp Speaker: Preach the word of the Lord!

Music: (during video footage of a dance performance wherein campers are dressed in fatigues and camouflage makeup and militaristically dancing/marching with sticks.) We’re on the road, we’re on the road to Zion. We’re on the road, we’re on the road to Zion. Prophesy!

Fisher: Where should we be putting our focus? I’ll tell you where our enemies are putting it. They’re putting it on the kids.

Fisher: How long have you been a Christian?

Levi: At five I got saved…

Fisher: Yeah?

Levi: … because I just wanted more of life.

Fisher: You go into Palestine and they’re taking their kids to camps like we take out kids to Bible camps, and they’re putting hand grenades in their hands…

Campers: I love Jesus, how ’bout you? I love Jesus, how ’bout you?

Girl Camper: There’s an excitement, yet there’s a peace with it all too. It’s really cool.

Levi: I really feel we’re a key generation to Jesus coming back.

Levi: … And we are a generation that needs to rise up and run with that baton.

Fisher: Yeah!

Camp Speaker: How many you want to be those who would give up their lives for Jesus?

Campers: (ecstatic cheering and hand-raising)

Levi: (voiceover) We’re being trained to be God’s Army.

Camp Speaker: Shout it out!

Campers: (shouting and cheering) Jesus!

Camp Speaker: You are the beginnings of a movement.

Camp Speaker: (praying) …raise up righteous judges!<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

So the very strong implication is that not only Satan, but PEOPLE are the enemy. Those who are not Christians (do not love Jesus the way it has been defined to them), Palestinians, etc.

Also, the eschatology is that this generation will be raptured on earth - not taken out, but immortalized on earth to fight "with" Jesus. Jim Laffoon detailed this in his talk, as well as other MCM and EN leaders - so Latter Rain influenced eschatology. This, along with the violent Left Behind video games in which the message is "convert or I will kill you," is closer to Hitler Youth than anything resembling Jesus.

Americans should be concerned. Christians in general should be concerned. Though I would say that our brothers and sisters in Europe, South Africa, Philippines, and other nations have reason to be doubly concerned. These kids will be in our armed forces in ten years or less. They will certainly be willing to die for their cause, but not a martyr's death, not in an Ephesians 6 battle and perhaps not even for the true Gospel.

The reason why the words "cell group" was dropped from EN's terminology is because they didn't want any comparisons with Al Qaida and other terrorist movements. And to be fair, Becky Fisher is not EN. But what was "cutting edge" in the 1970s and 1980s with MCM and similar youth movements has become frighteningly mainstream - and EN does work with Ron Luce/Acquire the Fire which is similar to this. Plus, it very potentially turns people off to real Christianity because they equate Christianity with Dominionism, not the Gospel of Christ Jesus.

ginger1

09-18-2006, 03:28 PM

Here is the problem with christian school, unless you are willing to donate a lot of money and and pay high tuition fees to a christian school, thats they only way you can get a quality education for your children.

I have pointed out before, its the school job to educate and the parents job to teach them how to live.

Parents need to get involved with their kids's schooling, are you willing to donate money, time and energy to a christian school ? It is expensive to hire people, christian school are there for profits also. Thats why to saved some money, parents have to donate their time and help the teachers. You just don't throw in your kids in there and expect the school to make a miracle out of it giving them quality education. Cheap christian school, cheap quality.
Christians put a lot of fear on public school, they teaches about homosexuality and abortions (though the public school here don't do that). They feared their kids to go wayward. Without thinking, hey SCHOOL IS ABOUT EDUCATION. The Main thing is EDUCATION. Are the christian school able tro deliver that to you ? So they go for the cheapest christian school cutting the quality of education.

Currently my kids public school right now is going for the perfect CAT standard. perfect score is 100. This public school is at 98. Which is very rare in California.
The normal public school here is 70 or lower statewide. Passing is 70. Some states are lower, most californian are 50. Which is failing.
this is the only way for us to know if our children is getting quality education.
Now for us to get this education, prices of homes and rents are higher than average household. 3 bedroom home for rent , older homes is at $1800 - $1900. I remember we were in a 2 bedroom apartment , when we just moved here and paying $1975. To rent a newer home it is $2500 - $2800. A lot of homes here goes from $700,000 to several million dollars.
Folks you want quality education, you have to pay one way or another.

ulyankee

09-18-2006, 03:29 PM

My post continued...

I say it again... Dominionism is NOT Christianity. It removes Jesus Christ as Head and Lord of the church and replaces Him with men who claim to have been given the "prerogative of deity." And these kids know no different. This is no grass roots movement. It has been in the planning for decades; perhaps longer.

ginger1

09-18-2006, 03:41 PM

Ulyankee, problem also with that is Hollywood and the media has influence the churches. We watched TV and saw Ghettos , kids shooting each other. We read the newspaper , how christians were persecuted. Bad education. Bad judges. Bad politician.They used FEAR.

Jesus dined with the most ungodly people like prostitutes and tax collectors. Sinners. HE DID NOT DO THAT. The only people I know who has a zeal like that is Saul who became Paul.

philiprosenthal

09-18-2006, 04:06 PM

Guys
You could go to most churches, film 100 hours of video and then edit it down to 1 hour of video combining a compilation of all the most off beat stuff that the speaker said - and you could make that church look really weird - but that doesn't mean that church is really weird - or that the whole movement is weird. In the 1980's I was living in England. If you believed the BBC news, then you would get the idea that almost all white South African's were racists and almost all black south africans hated white South Africans - problem was that it wasn't true - they just chose who they wanted to film. Farenheit 9/11 is another example of this type of biased warped documentary making.

Anyway with the discussion on Christian education above, I think we are getting off track. I was not meaning to start a public school vs private school debate. The issue is that the bigger problem is not those kids who go off to Jesus camps - but those who don't get any serious Christian alternative input. I don't think there is anything here serious to worry about. Secularism is the serious thing to worry about.

ginger1

09-18-2006, 04:21 PM

That show is a byproduct of Christian Paranoia. That everything outside is bad. I know, We have been through that in Phil Bonasso's church.
At 6 years old, what do they know ? At 6 years old, I can get my son and march around the table singing the Disney song, Alladin. "make way for prince Ali".
Now he is 13 , do you think he would do that ?

jbkrems

09-18-2006, 11:45 PM

Phillip: Yep, there was not such a thing as a secular school in the 1st Century church, unless it was for religious instruction.

Ginger: Don't take this the wrong way, but as an OBSERVATION, you live in the Phillipines (right?) and I live in America. You cannot just compare the two... its like apples and oranges, from what I understand.

I think we will both agree that parents need to PRAY about whether to home school their children, or in the alternative, where to send their children to school. So long as I continue to live where I am now, here in Edmond, Oklahoma, I will either home school or send my future children to the school at my church. I am very concerned that my children are raised in an environment that inculcates Christian values, and relationships that are healthy and appropriate. The only two venues that I see for that in my community are either Faith Christian Academy at church, or home schooling. Either way, I will have the assurance as a future parent that my future children will be educated appropriately.

I know a lot of children who were home schooled. Some have issues and problems, and others turn out just fine. I don't think you can just "blame" and point the finger, and say home schooling is the problem, for those with problems "fitting in," or socializing. Rather, I think it really is the individual student, and perhaps other factors. Some of the examples you cite involve preacher's kids, and that's a whole other issue.

Ulyankee: I read the transcript you posted, and noted your highlights. I do not see anywhere in that transcript segment ANY implictation that people are the enemy. Maybe you see that in what the camp counselor/parent said: "There are two kinds of people in the world, those who love Jesus (who are Christians), and those who don't." She's right, that is an accurate observation. Jesus Christ taught that we are either for Him or against Him. But this does not mean people are the enemy. It is just an accurate description of the current state of affairs.

In terms of the Palestine quote, that's just an analogy... its not rooted in "people are the enemy." The fact is, in the Middle East, kids are taken to camps and indoctrinated to either become zealous Muslims in the Islamic faith, or the appropriate seeds are sown in them so that they will either support or become a terrorist, or BOTH. I've seen videos of this before, it is nothing new. They even produce Islamic TV shows that mimic Christian TV shows in their format that do the same thing over there.

I'll see the movie tomorrow night, and then report on what I observed.

Ginger: What is the CAT? Never heard of it.

ginger1

09-19-2006, 03:13 AM

CAT - California Achievement Test. Its a standardized testing for kids in public school. By the time kids are in second or third grade, school kids are required to take this test nationwide. Its like SAT.

As parent, its your decision where should you educate your kids, either homeschooling , christian school ,private school or public school. But we should not be driven by fear. Quality of education comes first. And the Standardized test given by the goverment shows if your children are learning anything from school. This is given yearly close to the end of the school year.

As I have stated before, I have a few friends who homeschooled and their kids turned out fine. There are just too many advantages that said about homeschooling children and there is nothing that was said about the disadvantages. If I knew about the disadvantages back then i would not have homeschooled.

Parents should be aware of the advantages and disadvantages of homeschooling, christian school, public school and private school. The pros and cons of it.

One of the parent I know pulled her kids out of christian school because of the lack of quality of education. You will know it once
you received the results of your child grade in this standardized testing.

If money is no object, of course I would pay top dollars to put my kids in a christian school. Check the total result of the Standardized Test of the students in the school.
There is a private school here, it is called Quarry Lane at $10,000 a year tuition fee per child. I got three kids that would be $30,000. I cannot afford that. Score at 99% - 100%.

Regular christian school cost $500 - $800 a month. I have a friend who pays $700 a month for ten months. I would say quality is ok. Standardized testing is at 70 overall- 80% , so its average. Then this is how I think , if I can put my son in a school , where the average score is at 98% , why in the world would I put him in a christian school ?

I live in California. Not in the Philippines.

jbkrems

09-19-2006, 03:37 AM

Ginger: First, my apologies. For some reason I thought you lived (maybe a long while ago) in Manilla. But now you're in California, which again is different than other parts of the Nation here in America.

OK, that's what I thought you meant. I've taken the CAT, I remember. I was personally sent to public schools, and we did the CAT tests, and the Iowa tests, back in Missouri. In fact, I think we did 3-4 different state tests, depending on each year/grade level. But that a VERY LONG time ago.

However, I do not put that much stock in the CAT, or standardized tests as much as you do. I put more stock in where the Lord wants my kids to be for schooling, and I am more concerned with what values they are being educated with. I know that the ONLY place where the right values may be instilled are either in the home, or FCA, the school associated with my church.

I've seen a lot of good results from the kids who graduate at FCA. I've learned about their curriculum, and it is top notch. I do not know about standardized test scores, or that kind of thing, but I do not know whether Oklahoma uses statewide testing or not. I'd have to ask the school administrator about that, and get back to you. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Finally, I want to reiterate that with the kids who had issues/problems with homeschooling, some of that might be attributed to other factors, e.g. they are a pastor's kid, they have a so-called learning disability or behavior disorder, they are not involved in other activities associated with church or athletics outside of their schooling, etc. All of these impact the child as factors, and need to be considered to make an evaluation.

ginger1

09-19-2006, 03:48 AM

Oklahoma do have a test , its a federal requirement. To you values is more important. I know parents who gets too worried about whats being taught in school, I was in that shoes years ago. I learned my lesson and with an advice of a friend who is a Minister of the gospel, he told me to put my kids in public school like he did. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif and I never regretted it. All my fears were gone. I found out about the school having strong christian teachers.

Currently, the bible study in middle school where my son goes to is run by his Math teacher.

And as I said, if money is no object, I would look for a good christian school with high CAT score and put my 3 kids there.
But this is where God put them. So I have to settle for this.

jbkrems

09-19-2006, 04:42 AM

Ginger: OK. I am not a parent, so I do not follow all the testing requirements here in Oklahoma. Its not everyday someone wants to discuss that with me.

I know kids at my church who are in public school, and are Christian leaders on their campus, and they do fine.

At the same time, I know kids who either go to the church's school, or are home schooled, and they don't have problems, either.

I think they key to this is parents need to pray and find out from the Lord where He wants them to go, and then send them there, trusting that God will give them favor and blessing, and richly bless them in the education/knowledge realm, so they have the foundation to thrive and succeed in life.

coppertree

09-19-2006, 04:49 AM

Hi All
On national testing,on this I have some knowledge. For the past five years I have been working on them, grading, formatting questions, working with rubrics in math and science, doing training sets, pre-test questions for many states and SAT's. Most states that use federal funds must do them to help funds,; no child left behind was the cause of this. Many Christians that I work with have their children in public schools, values are taught at home. We are called to a witness, is what we are called to do.}

robert_unknown

09-19-2006, 07:22 AM

one key is a good and solid home, where the kids get treated with love and respect. this builds a good self image and helps them to avoid the traps of group pressure and helps them stand firm for their convictions.

jbkrems

09-19-2006, 08:07 AM

Robert: That's true, but if its not reinforced at school, then it can be really undermined if the kids are not strong believers, and don't know how to stand firm for their convictions.

Everyone I know who goes to a public school is a radical, on-fire Christian, and one girl leads the Christian club at her school. However, I know a lot of kids who need more reinforcement, and so they are either homeschooled or sent to Faith Christian Academy, the school at the church.

ginger1

09-19-2006, 03:09 PM

this is what I learned from the kids, some who are going to public school and and some who graduated and are now are in colleges.

Public School DO have pressure of doing the bad things . These kids learned to stay strong, its the advesary that made them stronger , they learned to say NO. They better deal it now, than deal it later in life. Everybody has to go through temptation, nobody is an exception.

I ask my best friend with her problematic son, the one who got kick out of school. Do you want to deal it now ? or Do you want to deal it later ? Phil Bonasso and Karen Bonasso managed to AVOID those problems homeschooling their kids. Now that their daughters in college, NOW they fall into temptation, they do not know how to deal with it. Phil's daughter is in her 20's when she got caught sleeping with Tony. Phil did not believe that those two was having an affair for years because he has shielded his daughters from emotions. They thought removing men from their lives would do the trick. Then exposing them to men once they grown up is safe.

They failed to consider Human Nature. We all have emotions. Especially kids once they get into teenagers, they got hormones to deal with . So we have christian kids in our church , who has to go through this and learned to suppress their emotion ON THEIR OWN. Not by parents like Phil and Karen Bonasso did.

The kids looked fine now , but whats going to happen 10 years down the road ?
Phil and Karen Bonasso's kids look fine 10 years ago and all the years we watched them grew up, being homeschooled.
Homeschooling, do have advantages. But learned to consider the pros and cons of it and weigh everything.

When my son was younger, there is still that remnants of homeschooling effect. He would talk in class all the time. He is a talker. The teacher told me. So in front of the teacher, I told him. If you do not behave, and kept talking in class I will sit down in class with you everyday. I will watch what you are doing and see if you are doing classwork. You know, I do not work outside of home , so I can do this. I told the teacher if thats ok. She said that would be great ! That shook him. He stop talking immedietly in class.

He learned suppression on his own. he knew his "image" is important in class.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

another_brick_in_the_wall

09-19-2006, 03:26 PM

Back to the subject of the upcoming movie...

I must add that viewing the movie trailer...all of the same rhetoric, chants, teachings is exactly what I experienced and witnessed at Bethel.

Just replace the image of those 10-year-olds in the clip with 20-year-old college kids and 20-30-somethings in Nashville.

That was why I became so unnerved when I was sitting in the movie theater watching the trailer.

I found it quite unsettling to see a group of kids with arms raised in the air, shouting in repetition, "righteous judges, righteous judges, righteous judges".

There is absolutely NO validation for that type of "teaching" and manic-manipulation.

And yes, it is true... those who are non-Americans should be very, very, very concerned with the impact of these "pocket" NOLR/Dominionism "churches". Even mainstream churches offer the same type of rhetoric, but watered-down.

Though we do have to wait until the entire movie is able to be viewed and evaluated.

mcmstaff78

09-19-2006, 03:32 PM

Just to weigh in on the Homeschool vs. Public school - quite honestly, I wouldn't put my children in Public school for anything, and I didn't. We have homeschooled since my oldest was pre-school. While *we* are called to be witnesses, we are *not* called to use our children as cannon fodder in a battle for souls. What does it profit you for a "witness" to be raises, and your child to lose his or her soul? Saying this is no different from the things in the movie people have complained about - using kids for our own purposes.

Now, to be sure, a lot of this depends on the school district and even the particular local school. Not all public schools are created equal and not all parents are able to adequately home school. However, it is amazing how capable the average parent *is* at schooling his/her own children. And it's more than being about "values". The educational level at most public schools is simply horrendous. Children do not graduate today anywhere near as educated as even when I was in HS and certainly no where near as educated as 100 years ago.

What we do need to encourage is school choice. There is no reason why our tax dollars should continue to fund a monopolistic system that benefits mostly the adminstration and teachers. School vouchers work where they've been allowed to work. Bad teachers and aministrators shouldn't be protected. Let the parents' decided. Give the power of their money back to them!

ginger1

09-19-2006, 03:48 PM

Mcmstaff I do agree with you. Most public schools in california are horrendous. And putting them in private school can be very expensive. I did researched on school vouchers. I wished I can have one of those. Sent my three kids to christian private school, I was hoping.... But the school here is good, so I know I will lose the battle there.

The movie is motivated by parent's zeal. And It did alarmed me is that We have been through that 20 years ago. Exactly the same thing.
I spoke with a friend who visited Bob Weiner's church just before his church closed down. They told me that he saw 30 and 40 years old men and women , running around the church with flags and their faces look so worn out and tired. There were no smiles any longer. Chanting. They have been doing this for years. Now I am seeing 6 years old doing it.
That church was man driven church. Age is no difference.

I have seen that happened a few times in Phil Bonasso's church, man driven, emotion church. Its so *fitting* of Phil to leave the church destroyed.

dust

09-19-2006, 04:34 PM

Is it really necessary to continually talk about someone else's children? The Bonasso family is complicated...it's not about home schooling...and the world has seen this girl's mistakes. She deserves her time to heal! As for his other daughters, I DON"T NEED TO KNOW. We all have our life situations!

It hurts to see their sins and troubles posted again and again. There is NO DELIGHT in this. I've made many mistakes in my life and we've had our own problems inside of our family with daughters their exact age. It's a mixed up world full of life's complications. I would hate to see their mistakes posted over and over.

MCM/EN has been accused of being short on the grace and mercy side. Do not these leaders' children deserve and perhaps need some grace and mercy?

ginger1

09-19-2006, 05:12 PM

Do you think Phil and his daughters were merciful to the people that they have abused over the years ? Phil's daughter have abused the young women in our church, Cursing , screaming and yelling at them. I have not heard her repent.

ginger1

09-19-2006, 05:22 PM

Sorry dust, I have enough mercy not to post her name , thats it. I just simply have no mercy for abusers people like Phil and his daughter.( Only when they repent thats when I stop). Specially when she was sleeping with Tony on the side while discipling the women in our church. She was verbally abusing the several young women in our church, cussing them out. So you can imagine the spiritual damage she did to the girls in our church. She is no better than Bob Weiner before his repentance.

j2theperson

09-19-2006, 05:38 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Ginger: Do you think Phil and his daughters were merciful to the people that they have abused over the years ? Phil's daughter have abused the young women in our church, Cursing , screaming and yelling at them. I have not heard her repent.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Phil's daughters were raised in the EN environment from their birth upward. Of course they were abusive; it was what they were trained to do. Yes, their abusive actions were wrong, but, given the circumstances, those actions are understandable--the surprising thing would have been if they had not been abusive.

They are all still young. Why don't you give them a little time and see how they turn out? Repentance does not always happen over night--several people have only now publically repented here on the FACTnet years after their involvement with Maranatha came to an end.

I admittedly was not a friend of the oldest Bonasso girl. But, based on my observations of her, I believe that at least part of her is aware of her sinfulness and does genuinely desire to have a relationship with God.

Phil, himself, is a different matter. He is a middle-aged adult who actively sought to become the person he is today. His daughters, however, did not choose to be born into the EN environment, and, because they are young, they still have the opportunity to choose to turn their backs on it. Give them some time and space and see what they do.

jbkrems

09-19-2006, 05:39 PM

Ginger: Kids can learn to say "NO" in other ways besides just being in public schools. They can face the same peer pressure if they are at private, and even Christian schools, where NOT ALL students are even Christian themselves, and even if a student claims to be Christian, we all know that does not mean the student acts that way (there is such a thing as a carnal Christian).

Regardless, the real problem with the public schools is not peer pressure, but the possibility that kids are indoctrinated with worldly values that are anti-Christian. In other words, the problem lies with the administrators, teachers, and the school itself, rather than other students.

Brick: I'm sorry, but I do not see the same issues you do, and Phillip does not, either. Maybe this is because I've never been in an EN church. Yet, I've been in other, non-EN churches that are charismatic/WOF, and teach the kids the same kind of things, that we need to pray that God would establish "righteous judges," and the like.

mcmstaff: For once we agree!

Dust: I completely agree. Let's put these kind of situations under the blood of Jesus and not drag leaders' names and reputation through the mud!

ginger1

09-19-2006, 06:30 PM

Sorry guys, I just simply have no mercy for predators and abusers like them.
J2 - I do agree with you on all points, it will take time to see whats going to happen with them in the future.

another_brick_in_the_wall

09-19-2006, 07:06 PM

93. Black And White Thinking

Another aspect of irrationality is absolutism. That is, seeing issues in terms of absolute black and white:

"You are either with us or you are against us."
"You are either part of the solution, or part of the problem."
"If you are not living in accordance with the Word of God, then you are following the dictates of Satan."
"Either you are a fanatical true believer like us, or else you are an evil hard-boiled atheist."
"If you are not a super-patriotic fascist John Bircher like us, then you are a godless Communist."
"Absolutely ALL of our leader's teachings are correct. He never makes any mistakes."
"Since we have the only True Teachings, straight from God, people who criticize our leader or our church are evil beings who are working for the forces of darkness.
They are trying to keep us from saving the world.
They are trying to keep us from getting into Heaven."
"Either you are willing to commit your entire life to our cause or else you are a wimp, a weak hand, and a real loser."
The very word "rational" comes from "ratio", a fraction. Absolutists hate fractional and proportional terms. They love absolute words like "always", "never, "all", "and none". They dislike words like "usually", "seldom", "mostly", "generally", and "few", which admit to there often being a few exceptions to the rule. All of which means that absolute rules are not always right, and you might actually have to think, rather than just let some stereotypes and slogans and simplistic answers rattle around in your head. Fanatics will say, "Quit trying to confuse me," when you point out the exceptions to their absolute rules.

I find it amusing that William Randolf Hearst, who was possibly the most successful newspaper publisher in the history of the USA, said that it seemed that forcing the American people to think was the greatest torture to which you could subject them. So Hearst became a very rich man by publishing newspapers that didn't require people to think.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q9.html

another_brick_in_the_wall

09-19-2006, 07:07 PM

92. Grandiose existence. Bombastic, Grandiose Claims.

"Our leader is the Messiah. Our leader is God reincarnated. Our leader is goodness personified, here to battle evil. We are a new order for a new age. We will save the world, defeat evil, bring world peace, end world hunger, usher in the Millenium, and establish God's Kingdom on Earth."

They can't just be normal good people; they have to be moral titans, playing out grand heroic roles in an epic cosmic moral melodrama. Many members feel that their lives will be pointless and meaningless if they don't play such grand roles in life -- to live an ordinary life and be a normal good person is "merely meaningless, pointless, existence".

The Nichiren Shoshu Buddhists, for example, claim that we will achieve world peace when one third of the people on Earth chant their chant. We get no explanation of how that is supposed to happen; it is just a given. So they claim that they are working for world peace by recruiting more members for their organization, getting more people chanting their chants.

Likewise, the Moonies claim to be bringing the world back to God, saving the world from Satan. They believe that to even get enough sleep is to be derelict in their holy duties. "Sleep especially was viewed as an indulgence since God never slept in His efforts to save mankind."1

Millenarial cults see themselves as preparing humanity for the End Time, or acting as a modern Noah's Ark to preserve the lives of a just a small group of special Chosen people.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q9.html

another_brick_in_the_wall

09-19-2006, 07:09 PM

http://www.rickross.com/faq.html

another_brick_in_the_wall

09-19-2006, 07:11 PM

JBK: What has been your observation when you have visited other traditional (non-Charismatic or Pentecostal) services?

Describe your assessment of their teachings, services and relations to God and one another?

jbkrems

09-19-2006, 11:32 PM

Brick: Christianity IS an absolute religion. Jesus taught Himself that you are either for Him, or against Him, and you are either "hot or cold." If you read the Book of Revelation, and examine the statements said toward the Church at Laodecia, and then apply that towards the Church today, you have a very sad statement.

Some of the statements you made above in the long list are accurate, and some are not. The first 3 of them are accurate, the 4th is not.

Lastly, you asked about my observation when I've visited other churches. First, I need to clarify that (1) these churches ARE charismatic/pentecostal/WOF in their orientation, and (2) I either was a member there, or had friends who went there.

Second, here ARE my observations: The song "Breathe Prophesy!" that is used in the trailer came from the International House of Prayer in Kansas City. Yep, Mike Bickle has an influence in this thing, and the churches that I am commenting on support the IHOP movement.

All of these church teach prayer and intercession, and that we need to pray for godly leadership in this country, including "righteous judges" to be appointed and elected. Most of these churches have flag-waving and banners as part of their praise and worship to some degree. And they teach a radical form of Christianity that is seen in the trailer.

I am especially thinking of one church. World View Community Church, which is a Foursquare church in St. Louis. My best friend attended there, before he moved to Kansas City to be an intern at the International House of Prayer. I still know, and occasionally chat with a lot of people who go there --- I am personal friends with the pastor at World View Community. This church is NOT an EveryNation church, but it does teach the concepts you saw in the trailer, and this was once the largest Foursquare church in the St. Louis area. Unfortunately, when it lost its lease, it lost so many of its valuable members.

Alright, enough for now. I need to get ready to go eat dinner and then watch this movie, so I can tell y'all what I really think of it.

another_brick_in_the_wall

09-20-2006, 01:28 AM

JBK:
The question that I asked you was your observation of visiting other church services, such as Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Lutheran, etc.

Have you visited any of these church services. And if so, what is your observation of their response to the move of God.

another_brick_in_the_wall

09-20-2006, 01:49 AM

JBK:
Dude, I didn't make the statements that I posted above. I simply copied and pasted from the link featured below. Click on the links featured in the last postings...it will provide you additional insight as the realities of current and former cult members.

Dude, you've got to hone your skills to pay attention to details if you are studying for bar exam and becoming a lawyer. I didn't make the above statements. It is second nature to a lawyer to read small print and look for source validation.

(Message edited by another brick in the wall on September 19, 2006)

coppertree

09-20-2006, 03:01 AM

Hi Brick
This is why I worry about Krems, and have said this before he will be a small lunch for other lawyers now that he has passed the bar. I still think , he is egging us on; he is the perfect foil,so to speak. Glad to see you here.}

another_brick_in_the_wall

09-20-2006, 03:15 AM

Thank you for the welcome back, dear C-Tree.

I totally agree with your assessment.

Time will tell as the foil begins to tear...

jbkrems

09-20-2006, 03:57 AM

Hello folks...

I just got back from actually viewing the movie "Jesus Camp." I have some thoughts to say...

First of all, this was a VERY balanced movie, although they did give more air time to the actual bible camp. Some of the scenes were a tad hokey, but it was not very negative.

Second, the use of the talk show host from Air America, who was extremely liberal was kind of lame. He claimed to be a Christian, but his view was very secular, I would say. He only got only maybe 10% of air time in the entire film.

Third, there is NOOOOOOOOOO, absolutely NOOOOOOO use of Morning Star/Every Nation, or anything like that. Jim Lafoon is not in the movie, and if his children just so happen to be in the film, they are not the feature kids. The film did document 2-3 "feature" children, who were from rural Missouri, not St. Louis or anything like that.

Brick: I've never visited such services. If you thought I had from my previous posts, I am sorry that you were confused because I gave the wrong impression. But, I've never visited mainline denominational churches, at all. I am a charismatic/pentecostal/WOF person through and through.

Well, when you quote those things, its as if you are vouching and advocating the position of the original publisher of them. So, again, if I was wrong to attribute it to you, I am sorry.

I ignored a lot of what you posted, actually.

Brick: I passed the Bar Exam. I get sworn in next Tuesday (a week from today). Also, it is ONLY second nature for a lawyer to do that in a legal setting. I'm not a lawyer here on this board.

Copper: Don't worry about me.

Ginger: I'd like to make a final comment to you about the film. The kids in the film develop their own zeal. They are not living off their parents' zeal. I do not see Levi (one of the kids in the film) or Rachel (another kid in the film) as burning out in the future. They are just developing a Christian lifestyle that will sustain them ad infinitum.

another_brick_in_the_wall

09-20-2006, 11:30 AM

JBK stated:
"Brick: I've never visited such services. If you thought I had from my previous posts, I am sorry that you were confused because I gave the wrong impression. But, I've never visited mainline denominational churches, at all. I am a charismatic/pentecostal/WOF person through and through."

My response: I am not the one who has gotten confused or misread your postings. My mind flows a bit better than you give credit. You have definitely given me an impression, though.
Then how can you provide a balanced assessment of religion when you have only experienced Charismania? What type of depth and breadth can you possibly offer to this board based on your lack of life-experience, maturity and religious study?

JBK stated:
"I ignored a lot of what you posted, actually."

My response: JBK, you are a jerk. You are wasting my time on this board. If you are unable to delve in and study the other side's position before making an insightful response for argument...you have a lot to learn about law and life.

another_brick_in_the_wall

09-20-2006, 11:41 AM

JBK stated:
"Third, there is NOOOOOOOOOO, absolutely NOOOOOOO use of Morning Star/Every Nation, or anything like that. Jim Lafoon is not in the movie, and if his children just so happen to be in the film, they are not the feature kids."

My response: JBK, AGAIN you need to pay more attention to reading these postings. I did not state in my earlier posting that this movie featured Jim Laffoon or MSI. I was referring to their appearance in a series of DVDs on the subject of New Apostolic Reformation...in which I included a link:

My earlier posting of 9/16 -
"I definitely recommend the purchase of this DVD series to understand exactly what teachings we came out of, where we are today...and where we are going."

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/nardvd.html

(note: this dvd series specifically names Morning Star International, Rice Broocks and features a segment on Jim Laffoon).
------

Helloooo, McFly???

robert_unknown

09-20-2006, 11:45 AM

"And yes, it is true... those who are non-Americans should be very, very, very concerned with the impact of these "pocket" NOLR/Dominionism "churches". Even mainstream churches offer the same type of rhetoric, but watered-down. "

in this respect, and ONLY in this respect, the Einligtenment (?) which was taking place in Europe and is widely rooted in european society and politics. I know that historicaly this movement was a antil-reformation based on humanism and on godlessness! but it will prevent europe from becoming a religous driven authoritarian dictatorship.

sure - we had other, godless dictators!

but when i imagine people NOLR people beeing in political leadership, i nearly must throw up!
this would be like a monarchy in the best and like George orwells nightmare (1984) in the worst case.

in this respekt i like Europe. at the moment this would never be possible!

and yes - we have nations with christians in politics and in leadership (iE in Norway many political ministers are christians).

But the diversion between church and state is - at least how i can see it - much stronger then in the USA!

christian right-wingers like Pat Robertson would have nothing to say here!

jbkrems

09-20-2006, 09:56 PM

Brick:

Let me get back to the point I was making that you might be looking at. Previously, I made the comment, "Yet, I've been in other, non-EN churches that are charismatic/WOF, and teach the kids the same kind of things, that we need to pray that God would establish "righteous judges," and the like." That was what I said. If you look carefully at what I said, I discussed htat I've been in "other, non-EveryNation churches that are charismatic or WOF." That's all. I actually have visited a LONG time ago a few mainline denominational churches. I was bored. I got saved by watching TBN, and so all I've really known was charismatic Christianity... call it "charismania" if you want, but its not that to me. It is normative to me.

I never said here I want to provide a "balanced assessment of religion." That isn't my purpose.

I apologize for the Lafoon deal --- I misread and got confused. Sometimes the posts get so long and detailed, I get lost, even, in them.

lablady2

09-21-2006, 12:29 AM

Brick: I passed the Bar Exam. I get sworn in next Tuesday (a week from today). Also, it is ONLY second nature for a lawyer to do that in a legal setting. I'm not a lawyer here on this board.

krems: Congratulations on passing the bar exam. Will your parents be able to attend the swearing in ceremony? I'm sure they're very proud of you.

You and I may not agree about a lot of things, but it's obvious you've worked very hard to become a lawyer. Good job!

jbkrems

09-21-2006, 05:27 AM

Lablady: No, my parents live in St. Louis, MO, and they are unable to make it next Tuesday. I'm not entirely looking forward to the event, it is just a formality to me. It will be a good opportunity to visit with a few people, and so forth, but its not a huge deal to me. I am more concerned with finding a job and just getting started.

And yes, my parents ARE proud of me. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

formermaranathapastor

10-05-2006, 08:07 PM

I saw the Movie "Camp Out" last week and was moved to tears to see courageous young people in an accepting place for teens of faith who are gay.

Here is a summary of the movie.

CAMP OUT is a feature documentary film that follows ten Midwestern teenagers as they attend the first overnight Bible Camp for gay Christian youths. For these six boys and four girls, it's just as hard to come out as Christian as it is to come out as gay. They're caught in the battle between religion, politics and sexuality that's raging in the United States today. These kids are outsiders -- their straight classmates ostracize them and their churches reject them. But like all teens, they yearn to feel at home, somewhere. Struggling to find a way to be true to both their spirituality and their sexual identity, these teens come to camp hoping to finally find a place of acceptance.

jbkrems

10-05-2006, 10:57 PM

FMP:

Being gay and a Christian is an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms. How can you, as a Christian, be moved to tears over a movie that exhibits what the Bible describes as a perversion??? There is no such thing as a "teen of faith who is gay."

ginger1

10-06-2006, 04:12 PM

JBkrem, In every ACTION, there is a REACTION.

This remind me of the church biggest mistake. It was the birth of N.O.W. the feminist movement. The church knew that Women were receiving UNEQUAL WAGES, and UNEQUAL TREATMENT at work. HARRASSMENT at work is a norm in america back then. Even in churches, women were not allowed to hold position nor speak up.

Because of this type of ACTION in the church a REACTION was birth., N.O.W. , this is the fruit of the american church. A feminist movement.

BIGOTRY among christian will always, always bore fruits that you and I may not like.

I understand the church stand against gays and I also understand the Christian gays. I have couple of good friends who were gays in the past. I have seen hurt and rejection in their eyes that moved me also. What worse that those actions came from the church and christians.

Rejection , Bashing and Bigotry against them is NEVER the answer. You will only produce a Reaction that you will regret. And I have seen it happening already in the political realm because of church mistakes.

Now, churches are angry at gays because gays are now entering the political realm changing and introducing new laws for them.
Who's fault do you think is that ?

formermaranathapastor

10-06-2006, 04:51 PM

Well said Ginger.

I guess my whole exodus from Maranatha, and the subsequent process of healing and recovery, has made me very aware of my own imperfections, and more tolerant and understanding of the imperfections of others.

I have also realized that God "Looks not at the outward appearance but at the heart". The rigid judgements that I have made of others, even though I thought they were according to the "Word of God", have been exposed as my own insecurities.

Gay Christians are fellow travelors on the path to the Divine nature of God. Who am I to say they shall not travel the path with me, and me with them?

jbkrems

10-06-2006, 05:37 PM

Ginger: I agree with you that the church should not reject or be bigoted towards gays, although, I disagree that one can be gay and a Christian (or Christ follower) at the same time.

FMP: Again, there is no such thing as a "Gay Christian."

You asked, "Who am I to say they shall not travel the path with me, and me with them?" There are several Bible verses in both the Old and New Testaments that demonstrate the point that homosexuals will have no place in the Kingdom of God. The Bible is very clear that those who do not repent from the homosexual lifestyle are not only in bondage, but cannot be a Christian, and inherit eternal life.

For example, one key New Testament verse is found in 1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterer, nor effeminate, nor HOMOSEXUALS... will inherit the kingdom of God." This verse, among others, makes clear that homosexuals, lesbians, transsexuals, and anyone under the GLBT umbrella "will not inherit the kingdom of God," and CANNOT be a Christian.

formermaranathapastor

10-06-2006, 09:57 PM

jbkrems-

No, it does not make it clear. The greek word translated "homosexual" can mean many things. The word "homosexual" was not even around until the last several hundred years.

For example, the word translated "effeminate". Does that mean that a guy must be "macho" to be a Christian? Does that mean that guys that like to sew are going to Hell. What do you think that means?

Our culture varies on definitions like this. Again, our judgements are on the outside while God sees the intent of the heart.

lablady2

10-06-2006, 10:12 PM

I'll make a wager that a few homosexuals will hit the kingdom before some leaders, pastors, and TV evanagelists. God sees the whole person, actions and intentions, and their heart. Oh, I think there will probably be a few surprises. Of course, I probably won't be around to see it, but then I don't spend a lot of time worrying about heaven (or hell) either. Do the right thing and that stuff takes care of itself, in mho.

ginger1

10-06-2006, 10:21 PM

I am with you Lab, just love them the way they are.

ginger1

10-06-2006, 10:26 PM

Jbkrem, you may not agree that being gay and christian can be together at the same time. Thats fine with me.

I also do not agree that bashing of gays and being a christian can be together at the same time.

jbkrems

10-06-2006, 11:51 PM

Ginger: And that's fine with me, too. Gay-bashing is not Christ-like behavior, just as homosexual behavior is not, either.

Lablady: Please read my comments directed to FMP below. Your theology is way off.

FMP: The Bible makes it perfectly clear, and how dare you say God is "not clear," because the Bible is God's Word to all of mankind. Even in the Old Testament, in Leviticus, the Bible declares homosexuality and other sexual behaviors (e.g. adultery, fornication, etc.) are sin. You say the Greek word for "homosexual" can have multiple meanings. That is not how we should interpret the Bible, my friend. Rather, we need to find out what God's heart is on the subject, and get "the mind of Christ."

God's Word is very clear that homosexuality is a sin, and God places that kind of lifestyle in the same category as those who commit other kinds of sin, such as murder, robbery, adultery, etc. If you cannot see that in 1 Cor. 6:9, and other verses where that is addressed in the Bible, then you are DECEIVED.

No, I do not think the word "effeminate" means that a guy who NOT "macho" goes to hell. I do think it means that a guy who is a transsexual, or a cross-dresser, and refuses to repent of such behaviors will not inherit the kingdom of God. I'm not a "macho" guy, personally, by most people's standards, but I am a strong Christian. I think "effeminate" means a guy who has strong female tendencies, e.g. dresses like a female (cross-dressers and transsexuals), OR presents himself in society like a woman. Such is abhorrent and a sin, to be someone you are not. If you are man, you need to act like one. If you are a woman, you need to act like one. To do otherwise is a sin, and violates God's natural order.

By the way, to all of you, if someone was formerly homosexual, or formerly transsexual, or formmerly anything else, and has repented and been delivered from such a lifestyle, then the Bible ALSO makes clear such a person can come clean before the Lord, and inherit the kingdom of God, and be a Christian.

But, if you are actively engaged in the kind of lifestyles that are described in 1 Cor. 6:9 (and other verses), such as homosexuality, or transsexuality, then you are not going to inherit the kingdom of God, and that is VERY clear in the Scriptures.

lablady2

10-06-2006, 11:58 PM

Of course my theology is off Mr. Krems; it isn't YOUR theology. I didn't expect any other answer from you. Just stating my opinion.

However, if you can provide digital pics, black and white, or color photos of either heaven or hell, I'll be happy to give you my e-mail address. Without proof, it isn't a fact, it's a matter of faith.

jbkrems

10-07-2006, 12:28 AM

Lablady:

Let me address why I responded the way I did towards your previous comments. I realize that you were once a Christian, and now you are no longer a Christian. I find that sad and unfortunate that you rejected the faith you once had.

The fact is, your theology is not Christian theology. Its not a personal thing, like what other Christians on the Board and I have, where I see it one way, and they see it another way, and we can agree to disagree, because both of us are Christ followers. On the other hand, your theology isn't Jewish, either. Its totally not Biblical and totally not Jewish OR Christian. That's why I said it was "way off." You are entitled to your opinion, but I do not want to give others who may be reading this discussion the wrong impression --- people who read your thoughts should know that you are a former Christian, and now have rejected Christ and become entrenched in some form of liberal Judaism. And that's all I was pointing out.

You're right, by the way, that heaven and hell is a matter of faith. However, there are testimonials available out there of people who claim they went there. Dr. Richard Eby, who is originally Jewish (now Christian) himself is one such person that God took to hell, supposedly. But that is not why I believe in heaven and hell. I believe in heaven and hell because the Bible, which is the Word of God, states these places exist.

lablady2

10-07-2006, 04:50 AM

Krems: anyone can say they have been to heaven or hell...or Mars for that matter. No proof. You're a lawyer, you know how that works.

The one thing I respect about you, Krems, is that I think you state the facts as they relate to Christianity in a few important ways. First, being a Christian, according to New Testament scripture as I understand it and read it for many years, requires that one believes in Christ, believes that He is the Son of God, and believes that "no man cometh under to Father but by him." In other words, to be a Christian, you must accept that there is no other way to God than through Christ. Would you accept that?

That is the fundamental basis of Christianity and you rigorously maintain that. I've met many Christians who try to leave "wiggle room", as in, "Well, God is merciful and he knows every heart." Or, they tell me plainly that they believe that some people will get into heaven even if they aren't sure that Christ is their personal saviour. Honestly, I can't square that with the NT. I wonder why they even bother calling themselve Christians if they believe that.

In order to be a Christian, in my humble opinion, you would be required to believe that I, as a Jew, am going straight to hell. That does not offend me, by the way; it's what I would expect a Christian to believe. Personally, I don't accept that every person who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ is going to hell (obviously), so I cannot be a Christian. Or am I missing something?

So, I think, that you and I at least have a mutual understanding.

jbkrems

10-07-2006, 05:13 AM

Lablady:

Yes, although Dr. Eby is a medical doctor, and you are yet to hear out his testimony.

Yeah, although I think there is a bit more to Christianity than just Jesus is the only way. It is a little bit more than that, but what you said is a significant part of the foundation.

No, you're right, you cannot have that kind of "wiggle room," and say God knows every heart like that. That is bordering on a theology called "universalism," which got Carlton Pearson in big trouble, and appropriately branded as a heretic. I once had an in-depth chat with a girl who went to his church in Tulsa... ugh, what a mess it left (she needs counseling, etc.)

Well, I would not be as blunt as you are, but yes, a Jew who does not accept Jesus, just like a Muslim who does not accept Jesus, or an atheist who does not accept Jesus, or someone with no religion who does not accept Jesus, is likewise going to hell. No, you're not missing anything.

Yes, we have somewhat of a mutual understanding, I would say. However, I would add that I personally am saddened by your decision to depart the Christian faith. There are Scriptures that I could cite (and I won't) that address the situation that you are in, because you're not just a person who has never accepted Jesus. You accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord at one time, yet have turned your back on him. I do not want to debate eternal security with you, or anyone else here on the Board, but I do believe that puts you, personally, in a worse position than someone who never received Christ as Lord and Savior. And so I am saddened and concerned at your unfortunate decision.

lablady2

10-07-2006, 05:36 AM

Mr. Krems: I'm very familiar with the scriptures you are referring to; I was quoting those same scriptures to others when you were still in diapers. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lame.gif I understand fully your position and I appreciate your willingness to stand by your convictions.

Honestly, you shouldn't feel sad at all. You can rest assured that I made my decision with full confidence and that my choice is my own. I'm very happy with it. Of course, I don't expect the consequences for myself that you do, but even if I did, I couldn't and wouldn't change my course. You can't think that you are the first who has asked me how I would feel if I found out I was wrong? Judaism, unlike Christianity, is not something you can become a part of in a single service or event. Months of study were required during the conversion process and no stone goes unturned. But,how unhappy would you be if someone forbade you to practice Christianity if it was all you could believe? Allow others to be free to make personal choices, and give them credit for assuming personal responsibility for their choices. That's what being a human being and an American are all about; being free to choose and plot your own course, while accepting the consequences of your decisions.

jbkrems

10-07-2006, 05:47 AM

Lablady: If you are familiar with those Scriptures, then you should understand why I am saddened at your decision. There are other Scriptures, I am sure you are equally familiar with them, which explain why I should feel that way.

Just because you are happy with your decision, and made the decision with "full confidence," and that "your choice is your own," and that you are "very happy with it," does not mean it is the best decision. I'd say the same if you have resorted to a life of alcoholism or drug addiction, or some other vile crime.

I know that the Jewish conversion process is a lengthy one. I understand it is all you can believe right now, and you believe it is a matter of personal choice and personal responsibility. However, that is NOT what being a Christian is about. Once you are a Christian, you surrender your personal choices and so forth to Christ. I guess in your view there is something very un-human and un-American about NOT being free to choose and plot your own course, because Christianity is about surrendering your entire life to Christ, about letting Jesus take the wheel and be the pilot, so to speak.

lablady2

10-07-2006, 06:06 AM

No, I think choosing to be a Christian is all about plotting your own course and being free to make your own decision. It is your CHOICE to surrender your life to Christ. The important point is that you had a choice. Everyone should have a choice to believe what they believe. You are aware, I'm sure, that many may doubt that your choice is the best for you either (I'm not one of them, by the way). Still, it is your right. Human dignity depends on freedom of personal belief; otherwise, I am a slave to your choices or you to mine.

jbkrems

10-07-2006, 06:28 AM

Lablady:

Yes, that part is true. But once you make that choice to surrender your life to Christ, then you no longer have the same freedom to make later, subsequent choices. Ideally, Christ makes the decisions for you, and you have to choose to cooperate with Him and the Holy Spirit.

Some do doubt that the choices I've made are the best, but some of the same people have come around, including a close friend of mine (who happens to be Jewish, and not a Christian).

Yes, I agree that human dignity does depend on freedom of personal belief --- its just that in America a lot of folks take that too far, and I won't get on my soapbox about that. Point made.

40days40years

10-07-2006, 07:09 AM

Well Lab you do seem like a Jewish princess in that your a drama queen. I don't like the idea of hell either but what are you gonna do?, they believed in it in the Old Testament too. Your kind of like someone getting ready to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge and saying, respect my choice. You know what would have happened to the priest in the old testament who rejected and defiled the sacrifice? It is the same God in both testaments, look at the prophecies. You most likely think that God is unjust. We have had runins before so if you don't wan't to respond that is o.k., if you do that is o.k.

40days40years

10-07-2006, 07:27 AM

Hey I saw a clip of Jesus Camp on TV. Yeah it was a lot like Maranatha but the people were 1/2 our size and it only lasted 3 days, also the chubby female pastor seemed to be a very kind lady. She made a good point to the reporters saying kids crying was only a tiny fragment of the experience these kids had. I could understand a non believer or denominational type freaking out watching it though. It was only three days, pffft!

robert_unknown

10-07-2006, 07:51 AM

every sexual activity outside of the covenant of marriage is called "porneia" and is therefore sin. point.

how the church deals with people, who engage or who are trapped in a lifestyle of "porneia" is another issue. of course there must be love and understanding for the person, but at the same time there must be a clear understanding that there are no possibilities to call or see one expression of "porneia" as normal or "better". sin is sin.
at the same time it is a pitty, that the only activity that a big part of the church offered - specially in the matter of homosexuality - is rejection. as phil wrote one day, there IS the possibility to become free from homosexuality as well as from any other sexual addiction. of course there is more needed than a short prayer and a short hootah session! therapy!

the problem in society as well as in church at present is, that they tend always to go to one extreme.

while it is NOT acceptable to reject a peson based on his/ her sexuality, it is also not acceptable to whitewash sin and to call black white.

churches who say, that beeing gay is ok, dont do gay people a favour! they dont offer help, but accept the status quo.
churches who reject gay people dont do them a favour either. they have no solution for the problem, and fear the problem.

Jesus never rejected the person. But he always made it very clear with sin. still he had something that drew people to him, and that helped them to enter a new lifestyle and to reject sin in their lives.

Thats the thing the churchs needs.

(Message edited by robert_unknown on October 07, 2006)

jbkrems

10-07-2006, 08:16 AM

40: A lot of churches must look like Maranatha nowadays, since to me, as a charismatic, what I actually saw in the "Jesus Camp" movie was fairly typical.

Robert: I completely agree with your analysis. We had a discussion last night in our Young Adult group, where the leader said, "God accepts you as you are, but does not want you to stay just as you are." I think that quote sums it up.

lablady2

10-07-2006, 09:55 AM

40days: The run-ins are your choice. I don't know why you can't say something without being ugly or provocative. Krems and I were having an uncontentious and open dialogue.

Thankfully, their are plenty here to witness that you are the provocateur. Your witness to your faith leaves little to make me regret my choices.

lablady2

10-07-2006, 10:09 AM

40 days: I have openly admitted that, according to Christian belief, I am going to hell and that I accept that as a distinct possibility of my choice. I'm not sure what more could be done to me, but that doesn't seem to be enough to satisfy you. Are you saying that being condemned to hell isn't punishment enough for God or just not enough for you? Are you suggesting that I should be stoned now? I'm curious to see what it would take to satisfy your idea of justice in my case.

pilgrim

10-07-2006, 01:23 PM

lablady2,

I am just curious to know why it is so difficult for you to believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins. You did believe this before. You could probably still call yourself a messianic jew if you still believe in Jesus Christ.
I do not wish any punishment for you. Jesus, said whoever is without sin throw her the first stone. Jesus is the only one who was and is without sin so I am glad that we are not entitled to punish you because I much rather prefer to try to built you up if I can. I respect your belief and I love you how you are but I feel sad that probably your involvement with Maranatha and perhaps even other WoF movements might have destroyed your faith in Christ. Do you still believe that Jesus Christ is the messiah and that he died for our sins ie your sins and my sins? If not why not?

Blessings

pilgrim

lablady2

10-07-2006, 02:51 PM

Pilgrim: I think I answered that question in a post above with Mr. Krems.

The simple fact is that my beliefs are derived from my life experiences, much study and my values - just like everyone else. I don't expect anyone else to believe what I believe or to agree with what I believe. The only thing I've asked it that my RIGHT to my belief be respected as I've respected everyone else's (thank you for that, by the way).

I could refer you to several previous posts, but I'll state again that my MCM experience was over 25 years ago, and I made my conversion final almost 2 years ago. I spent several years of the interim in Christian churches. My decision was an "internal" one, not an external one. Had it been, I probably would have done it many years before.

I appreciate your concern; it touches my heart. But even God recognizes the value of free-will and personal choice. He must have, because He made us that way. Some would say that He gave us free will because He wants us to love Him from our hearts rather than by command. And I do.

ginger1

10-07-2006, 03:41 PM

The statistic of people who left cultic churches like Maranatha or Every Nation, 90% of them backslidden or does not want to do anything with christianity. I have heard some committed suicide because they cannot keep up with the pressure , some become alcoholics some drug addicts. Some just disgusted with the whole thing about God.

I have a good friend who is totally backslidden, left the wife and family, just literally justifies the adulterous relationship with scriptures . What do I do about it ? Nothing. There is nothing I can do with other people's choices.
Lecturing them will do no good. They had enough of that in Maranatha or Every Nation.
But this is one scripture that I follow. Romans 2 :4. Its the Kindness of God that leads people to repentance.

Its not preaching or lecturing people that they are going to hell , the choices people made though it may not agree with my belief. I just loved them the way they are. Accept them the way they are. If thats their belief thats fine with me.

Its the preaching and Lecturing people that drove one person further from Christ. Its the kindness that brings them back.
Even if they don't, that is still between them and God. Its His job not mine. I just show them kindness as Christ wants me to do.

40days40years

10-07-2006, 05:04 PM

Well Lab when I look at your last posts to me you kind of made my point also about being overly dramatic. You have a lot of friends here who did not want to bring up the fact that for a Christian the choice you made is a big deal, one of the biggest. I guess I should be mature and say to myself "she knows what she is doing" but I am not that way. Certainly you would expect a few at a place with this many Christians to say "whaaaat?????" You got to admit that your decision is an attention grabber on a message board like this much more so then somebody making a decision like FMP made for instance (I kind of understand his dilema I don't agree with his choice but I understand for instance). Like I said I don't like the idea of hell for large numbers of people either. Your an adult with a long belief history and my behaviour is not going to make any differance in what you believe and practice. I'll leave you alone so you can discourse with Krems since you seem to really enjoy your conversation with him at this time.

Ginger, there are a lot of people out there who after dealing with this ministry don't even want to step foot in a church and I understand that. It is very hard to commit to anything after being burned but all the ex-Maranatha people I have personally known would call themselves Christian. 90% seems a bit steep.

(Message edited by 40days40years on October 07, 2006)

coppertree

10-07-2006, 05:55 PM

Hi Ginger
Well said , thank you !}

dust

10-07-2006, 06:57 PM

Ginger,

Where did you get the 90% statistic? That's not been my experience and I can't see myself as part of 10%.

God is bigger than Every Nation. The blood of Jesus is more powerful than Rice or Steve or Phil. I know most people who've left Bethel and their faith is strong and they are not backslidden. In fact, many people I know now have a stronger faith and are healthier.

Why give so much power to Every Nation that they could ruin 90% of people's faith. Christians are hearty and have survived a LOT of corruption and tyranny through the ages. It's because Christianity is supernatural and the strength comes from JESUS, not from ourselves. Seek the truth; you'll find it.

God is our Creator, Jesus our Redeemer, the Holy Spirit our Counselor (to name a few), and He's not going to leave 90% of the congregation that leaves as roadkill! Then they didn't belong to Him in the first place, for He will send people to help to heal, to love. If I don't believe that, then I don't believe there is a God,

ginger1

10-07-2006, 07:09 PM

Tom Siratnak gave me the figure at 90%.

40days40years

10-07-2006, 07:10 PM

AMEN! to that Dust.

pilgrim

10-07-2006, 07:16 PM

Dust,

It also depends what you mean by backslidden, I think that if you are a Christian and join the cult where they practice the doctrine of covering and end up obeying the leaders as if they were God you have already backslidden.
I never lost my faith in Christ but under the doctrine of covering I got the wrong advice. I made mistakes that made my present life sad.
If I want to try to undo those mistakes it will look like I backslidden. I do not know what the right thing to do is now. I wish I never been under that demonic doctrine of spiritual covering.
Many times I feel sad and I do not know what to do.

dust

10-07-2006, 08:22 PM

Pilgrim,
I would love to email off line with you. I see your pain, but I also see your heart for Christ in every single post. My email is
dust4truth@comcast.net, if you want to.

As far as being backslidden inside the church for following the covering doctrine, we can look at it two ways. Way number 1: How in the world did I let myself fall into that and then stay there in condemnation or 2: The MIRACLE of God is that the crazy stuff inside the church DOES INDEED get corrected. And, I can get corrected, and learn and grow and affect other's lives in a positive way.

Pilgrim, I made my super big mistakes before I got saved, and to this day, I try to help others not make those same mistakes, so in a way my mistakes are helping someone. So, I could sit in condemnation and keep the devil happy, or I can rejoice that God can use toward good what the devil meant for harm.

And, we have 2000 years of incredible history to see the church get correction. This is what we can celebrate because no matter how crazy or selfish or even demonic man or the church can get, the CHURCH will survive and correct itself. We are the bride of Christ. The survival of Christianity is an ongoing miracle and no one can kill it.

dust

10-07-2006, 08:25 PM

Ginger, you can correct me here, but I heard that at the conference in LA this summer Tom received an apology from the top leaders, and is distantly still associated and pastoring in Orange County. I think his report to you was probably a bit biased as he was deeply hurt. He would have no means to gather such information.

pilgrim

10-07-2006, 08:41 PM

dust,

Thank you for your message.Perhaphs one of these days you will receive an email from me. I do not feel ready to do it at the moment.

pilgrim

10-07-2006, 09:03 PM

dust,

You wrote, As far as being backslidden inside the church for following the covering doctrine, we can look at it two ways. Way number 1: How in the world did I let myself fall into that and then stay there in condemnation or 2: The MIRACLE of God is that the crazy stuff inside the church DOES INDEED get corrected. And, I can get corrected, and learn and grow and affect other's lives in a positive way.

The point I wanted to make is that everyone who followed the false doctrine of covering had backslidden but it is true that it does not always mean that you they have backslidden for ever. Many have come out of this false covering provided by humans and had taken the covering of Jesus Christ directly.
Some like myself might be still trying to sort out the whole mess in their life today.

In the middle ages during the inquisition many blinded backslidden by following the Pope but even during this terrible time God did have faithful servants preaching the thruth.

jbkrems

10-07-2006, 10:41 PM

Lablady:

You wrote, "The simple fact is that my beliefs are derived from my life experiences, much study and my values - just like everyone else."

OK - YOUR beliefs might be derived from life experiences, study, and your own values, but PLEASE do not pin that on everyone else. Personally, my own beliefs are NOT derived from life experience, study, and personal values. My beliefs are derived from ONE Source alone, and that is the Bible, the Word of God. I do not derive beliefs from personal life experiences, or personal values. Others may do that, but I'm sure several like myself do not. So, when you pin that on everyone else, you are doing yourself a disservice. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

dust

10-07-2006, 10:56 PM

Lablady
Sometimes you are very funny, very warm, but certainly provocative.

You amazed me at your response to Krems regarding what you believe is a New Testatment Christian. I was more surprised when you referred to some Christians believing there is wiggle room, in that you know that true Christians believe in a life style that is not so popular these days.

Yesterday I saw a Christian guest host who was lovely and humble and non-argumentative on the view get condemned from Rosie O'Donnel because she doesn't believe in taking her kids for trick or treat. She said she had given in the year before and it caused her great distress and she's going to go to her church where the kids dress in biblical chararcters, which then Joy Behar mocked her. Had she been a different faith, Moslem for example, they would have respected her and steered clear. Had they mocked a moslem, it would be all over the news.

This is where we are today. People sit back and wait for Christians to fail and try to prove that Christ isn't real...Christianity is self-righteous and not doable.

I don't mind that you do make your commentaries, I'm just saying that with your stated position, any comments on a faith that you yourself don't believe in...well that's brings a charge. Just the same as it would if I started commenting on the Jewish faith.

No one is here to attack you or victimize you. so your comment about escaping to another thread..well that kind of put the people here in the perpetrator role and I don't see that. You can handle yourself quite well and you joined the conversation with a very provocative comment.

But, that escaping comment is the kind of thing that sets people against each other, like there are sides here....two groups of Christians and one group supports Jews and gays and one doesn't. That's silly. Or is it... Love is merited on its own...I love a lot of people that don't share my faith.

I do have one question where I'm confused. Do you believe there is a heaven and hell? This is an area of Judiaism that I'm confused about.

I think I could sit with you and enjoy your company, as I said you're funny and warm, and I think you could be good medicine...just like a cup of hot tea. But, lablady, you are provacative. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Instead of tea, I think it would be more like cognac.

dust

10-07-2006, 11:02 PM

I have to agree with Krems. I tried a life of my own values..it was a life of death....and I have to give ALL the credit to Jesus Christ for saving me from my self.

coppertree

10-07-2006, 11:43 PM

Hi Pilgrim,
I think that I went through what you are going through now. You could e-mail me,if you like. Ul has my, e-mail address, if you like. }

ginger1

10-08-2006, 01:57 AM

Dust, Tom indeed got some apologies from the church leaders, because of it, he wants to go back to EN. So he is a member of John Blue's church in Irvine Ca. orange county. Though John Blue is not exactly a member of EN. Tom's family , his wife and kids does not want to go back to EN. So only Tom attends the church.

Tom has a lot of things going on in his life that I am not in liberty to discuss. I just love him whatever his decision is. And he knows it.

dust

10-08-2006, 02:02 AM

Ginger, Thanks for that information and I think we can hold him and his family in prayer. I don't personally know him, but you know how news travels fast and I hate to see any family broken in any way. And, I'm sure he appreciates your friendship,

lablady2

10-08-2006, 02:51 AM

Dust: I haven't had time to thoroughly read your post, so forgive me if I miss a couple of things. Lot's of family/work stuff this weekend, but I'm not trying to avoid the topic.

Most of the Christians I now know are not involved in Charismatic or fundamentalist groups. I can only give you my experience. Some of my Christian friends have stated to me that they don't understand why I had to change my faith. They don't believe all the elements of the New Testament either, so why bother? Just go to church, don't change your whole life, your culture, etc. However, out of respect for Christianity, I think the terms are clear, and if you're going to call yourself a Christian, you should pretty much accept the NT as written. This is in no way meant to demean Christianity; if anything, I couldn't respect myself and I would find it demeaning to that faith to "pass." Faith is an important thing and should be held dear.

As to heaven or hell, I don't personally believe in a physical place called by those names. I certainly believe in God and I believe in an accounting, however, I have difficulty wrapping my head around a physical place with streets of gold, etc. Doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, though. As to what Jews believe about heaven and hell, it's important to remember that there are as many kinds of Jews as there are Christians and they all have different beliefs to some extent. I would suspect that Orthodox Jews believe in a physical heaven and hell. In the Reform movement, probably not so much, although that could vary greatly from individual to individual. It would be very hard to compare Judaism and Christianity in that respect.

For example, traditional Judaism proposes eight theories as to why evil exists, all very different, but it is not required that we all agree on one in order to be Jews, the reason being that, in the end, we cannot know if even one of those theories is right. They are just concepts. We have no proof.

Dust, if I am provocative, I do apologize. I think I can see how what I stated may be taken that way, but it is not my intent. More a function of old age, fatigue and hormonal fluctuations than malicious intent, I promise. This dog is too old to want to fight. I come in peace, and I mean that.

Didn't mean to cause a stir, really. I actually was trying to tell Krems that I sometimes understand where he is coming from. I was trying to be nice. No good deed goes unpunished, huh?

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ps. I would very much enjoy having a cup of coffee with you. I'm actually a lot of fun to hang out with.

lablady2

10-08-2006, 03:02 AM

Krems wrote: OK - YOUR beliefs might be derived from life experiences, study, and your own values, but PLEASE do not pin that on everyone else. Personally, my own beliefs are NOT derived from life experience, study, and personal values. My beliefs are derived from ONE Source alone, and that is the Bible, the Word of God. I do not derive beliefs from personal life experiences, or personal values. Others may do that, but I'm sure several like myself do not. So, when you pin that on everyone else, you are doing yourself a disservice.

Point taken, Mr. Krems. I stand corrected. I usually try to preface my statements with "for me" or "personally" and avoid sweeping generalizations. I goofed and you have my apologies. No more posting before coffee.

j2theperson

10-08-2006, 04:05 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Dust: I have to agree with Krems. I tried a life of my own values..it was a life of death....and I have to give ALL the credit to Jesus Christ for saving me from my self.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I'm not sure I understand quite what you mean to say here. Am I correct in thinking you're responding to Lablady's statement...
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Lablady: The simple fact is that my beliefs are derived from my life experiences, much study and my values - just like everyone else.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
That confuses me, Dust, because it sounds to me like you can only make the statement you made because of your own life experiences. It sounds like you are saying that at one time you lived your life according to your own value system which, in your experience, ended up being a life of death. Then God saved you and you experienced life under His value system, and presumably found that to be a life of vibrancy. Doesn't, then, your choice or desire to remain a Christian spring from the experience you have had with God?

How is it even possible for a person to disconnect their belief system from their life experience?

Or is this just a confusion about the definition of certain words?

jbkrems

10-08-2006, 04:09 AM

Lablady: Apologies are accepted.

dust

10-08-2006, 04:10 AM

Lab,

I think I get where you're coming from. I will tell you that I was "called" by God to be a Christian. BUT, I held out until I could be absolutley sure I was willing to lay it all down and be 100%. And, my biggest struggle was the homosexual thing. I knew I would aligning myself with those I had considered my adversary. I was originally very liberal, very new age, and I'm thinking you might like that person better... no just kidding.

"Provocative" is not necessarily a bad thing...there are some radio talk show hosts like Michael Savage that are provocative that I am quite attached to. They stir the pot, but they are prepared to go the "rounds."

I can tell you would be fun to hang with.....just don't give me the details of the lingerie party. I went to one once when I was in my early 20's and I haven't gotten over it and that was BEFORE I got saved, many years ago. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

lablady2

10-08-2006, 04:30 AM

dust: Parties usually have food. Reason enough to go. However, my daughter called 45 minutes before to tell me that she didn't have time to pick up snacks and would I mind? Ended up spending money on snacks and money on (tasteful) pajamas. Wished I just stayed home in my old pajamas, eaten my own snacks and saved myself a small fortune.

lablady2

10-08-2006, 04:32 AM

Sorry, OT...returning to the topic at hand, Mr. Krems.

Annndddd, it's back to the bunny trails for me.

jbkrems

10-08-2006, 04:34 AM

Lablady: No worries, and no problem.

40days40years

10-08-2006, 07:39 AM

Ginger said: Its not preaching or lecturing people that they are going to hell , the choices people made though it may not agree with my belief. I just loved them the way they are. Accept them the way they are. If thats their belief thats fine with me.

40: Yes and No Ginger. The, your going to hell routine never worked for me but it seems to have worked for Greg Ball. Yeah he could be very loving but he was like a lion at times, people were told to change, repent...etc. and people were told about hell and consequences and many were saved.

ginger1

10-08-2006, 01:18 PM

Amazingly, everybody is different. Jesus preach Love to the unbelievers and yet preach about judgement and hell to the pharasees.

But for people who left EN / Maranatha and cultic churches, I restrained myself to preaching and lecturing of hell. As I said, thats their decision.

dust

10-08-2006, 03:04 PM

J2 You asked me a question:
J2:Doesn't, then, your choice or desire to remain a Christian spring from the experience you have had with God?

Dust: First of all to answer this is two-fold. I don't feel like I really CHOSE to become a Christian. Everything in my life was the opposite. I was very liberal, free thinking, and part of the human potential movement. I referred to God the way all newagers and many faiths do..He becomes what we want Him to be..Our Higher Power or the Divine out there who accepts us all and is the God of all faiths, a real mix of Universalism and Pantheism. It was the "I'm very spiritual." And, I was a good person, and I used to say, "God judges the heart, He knows my heart is good, and MY God is going to take me to heaven." I believed this way for years. And, this suited me just fine.

I didn't want to become a Christian as lab lady said, it's a tough road, to be real a real Christian, not a lot of wiggle room. But, the spiritual lifestyle...well, all the wiggle room in the world. I would have PREFERRED to stay "spiritual." But, I couldn't.

I had a supernatural experience. It was a surprise. Me turning Christian wasn't because of long study, research, apologetics, etc. In fact, it was completely illogical if layered against my life experiences, my own value system, and my education.

That is what I meant. Your question was does my choice to REMAIN a Christian spring from my experiences with God. Everyone is different, and I'm sure some people here have had much greater, deeper experiences with Jesus than I have. I can only say that I have never even considered for one second another option since the day I got saved. It would be like choosing not to be a woman any longer. It's who I am. The old me is dead, the new me is alive in Christ. And, I'm not the one who saved myself, so the decision making is affected then by something else, that is the Spirit that dwells inside. It can't be me. This is the mystery of conversion. What Krems meant that I was agreeing to is that we have a SOURCE for our decisions; we decide according to the Word of God, that overrides what our values, experiences, might be.

An example might be the issue of forgiveness. The Amish have demonstrated a value system of forgiveness that is Christlike, and it's NOT the way we humans are. In spite of a terrible life experience, they chose to put the Word into action, above what they might really be feeling.

jbkrems

10-08-2006, 08:01 PM

J2 (and Dust): I am going to try to add to what Dust just said, and give some my of my personal experience.

Most of you know that I was raised Reform Jewish, and I'd like to comment some about that. For very secular (and selfish) reasons, I decided to have a Bar Mitzvah. This was before I became a Christian. Actually, I became a Christian nine months after my Bar Mitvah. But at my Bar Mitzvah, I had what I could only describe as either an open vision, or a trance, I don't know, but it definitely was a visitation.

There was a certain point where in the service, I sat down, and this was towards the end of the service. Well, when I sat down, soon thereafter I felt my spirit transcend this reality, and basically, the supernatural became more real to me (for about 30 seconds). I felt like I was out of my physical body, and I was ascending an escalator into heaven. When I reached a plateau and "got off," so to speak, God spoke to me, and told me that I was chosen of His. And then He put me right back on that escalator, descending back into reality, and things went back to normal.

Nine months later, I got saved. But when that experience happened, two things occurred to me. First, even at a young age, I knew God's hand was on my life, in some respect. I think at this point I knew it subconsciously, and not consciously as I know it now. Second, soon after my Bar Mitzvah was completed, in the next month, I began to feel spiritually adrift, like a ship out at sea with no rock to cast its anchor on. But, Jesus is the Rock.

I share this experience with you because I want to add to what Dust shared. Its not like I chose to be a Christian... I soon found out in less than a year that it was God's will for me to become a Christian, and its been a hard road. None of my family members are Christian. My brother and my parents are all non-believers. They do not even practice real Judaism. We're a fairly secular family (except for my end, and my Orthodox Jewish aunt and uncle, and their children).

Like Dust, I have never considered for a second another option since I have been saved. It IS who I am. The old me IS dead, and I am alive in Christ. I did not save myself, but Jesus saved me from my sins and my destruction. Praise God!!!

So, Dust and I both have a SOURCE for our decisions, and that is the Word of God, the basis for our faith, because God's Word transcends our personal values, experiences, etc. And, much of our decisions, if they are godly, are not logical by human standards. That is what 1 Corinthians 1:24-31 is all about.

j2theperson

10-08-2006, 09:02 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Dust:I was agreeing to is that we have a SOURCE for our decisions; we decide according to the Word of God, that overrides what our values, experiences, might be.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I sort of understand what you are getting at but not entirely. But you and I have very different backgrounds which probably contributes to this confusion of mine. I grew up in the church and there has never really been a time when Jesus and Christianity did not influence my thinking and my life.

40days40years

10-09-2006, 04:02 AM

Well Krems you said you had a Bar Mitzvah for secular and selfish reasons. That is interesting because I read a report that the most extravagant and super, super expensive Bar Mitzvahs are held mostly by non religous Jews. In fact in some religous circles it is considered scandalous, the amount of money spent and the materialism exhibited by many non religous Jewish families.

You know with my conversion experience I had read the sinners prayer before but was exposed to the power of God in a Maranatha meeting where the presence of God was very strong. I could literally feel the Holy Spirit and the demonic fighting inside of me. God did make me want to make a choice and when I did I was saved instantly. I will admit that people at this board attributing almost all manifestations of God encountered in Maranatha/EN to NOLR spiritism kind of shook me a little.

jbkrems

10-09-2006, 04:42 AM

40: My Bar Mitzvah was not that extravagant. We did have a big party for family and friends, but it was nothing that I would consider extravagant. My main motivations, I admit, were that I wanted the presents, the party, the attention, etc. And children of my parents' friends went through the same thing, so I thought that I would go ahead and do it.

Ironically, my brother chose NOT to have a Bar Mitzvah. Our parents gave him a choice. He could do a Bar Mitzvah, and our parents would spend the money on that, or if he chose the other option (which he did), they would take the same money, and use it for purchasing a car for him (sort of) --- he chose the latter, and had his own car when he turned 16. Talk about delayed gratification - LOL - http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

My Bar Mitzvah was not super expensive, though. The party was held in a nice hotel, the same that many of the guests from out of town were staying at, and it just did not cost a whole lot --- I would say it was a moderate party.

Anyways, I'm not shocked or shook by what I see here on the Boards. I am saddened and disappointed, though, by what I see, here on the Boards. It grieves me to see my Christian brother and sisters being deceived and living an unholy, un-Christian lifestyle.

dust

10-09-2006, 05:24 AM

40, I think there are COUNTERFEITS out there to deface the awesome power of God. What's important is to be really balanced, grounded in the Word and excercise discernment.

The wierd stuff out there is a counterfeit attempt of Satan to bring disgrace to the church and bring cynicism. Importantly, it brings great division in the Body of Christ.

40days40years

10-09-2006, 06:00 AM

Dust you said: What's important is to be really balanced, grounded in the Word and excercise discernment.

40: Yeah I agree but the problem is when you have unbalanced people who are sincere who have a lot of truth and a whole lot of people you respect back them up. Trying to sort it out can be kind of tough. Somebody like Michael Savage would be a good example.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

jbk thanks for that response.

jbkrems

10-09-2006, 07:08 AM

40: You're welcome.

Dust: Keep preaching it.

dust

10-09-2006, 02:48 PM

40 you wrote:" the problem is when you have unbalanced people who are sincere who have a lot of truth and a whole lot of people you respect back them up."

Me: How can you have a lot of truth when you have UNBALANCED people? Part of being "balanced" is having truth. I realize this is a simplistic statement, because at some point on this board our truth got muddled. But, GOD IS NOT STINGY WITH HIS TRUTH, if we seek it. We hear stories of muslem people having "dreams" about Jesus and converting and this has happened in several different countries.

This is what gives me HOPE, that no matter how many arrows of deception the devil shoots, God is soveriegn.

matt_hatter

10-09-2006, 03:15 PM

" because at some point on this board our truth got muddled."

I would be interested in a further explanation of this statement. Thank you!

dust

10-09-2006, 03:49 PM

because at some point on this board our truth got muddled."

What I meant is that our truth (inside a church) got muddled. I'm referring to faulty doctrine that most people here were exposed to.

It was about GOD seeing our confusion, and bringing His truth to us, in spite of what people may have taught us.

I don't know how to read your post. You put an explanation point after thank you, so I don't know if that means you thought this was about you. So, instead of guess, I'll ask, did you think this post was about you?

matt_hatter

10-09-2006, 04:00 PM

I'll ask, did you think this post was about you?

Not at all! But I still don't understand. Maybe it is the wording. You said "on this board" and your explanation had to do with "inside a church". Sorry for the confusion, not meaning to play a chess game or anything, was sincerely interested in your thoughts.

Letters, words, and punctuation can leave one wondering, it is the great flaw of internet chat, imo. Not trying to kick up the dirt.

dust

10-09-2006, 05:57 PM

Matt, your probe makes me want to approach a topic that is already in the room (like an elephant).

Sometimes there are subtle and not so subtle kinds of outloud thinking about conservative approach Christians on this board.

I was raised in a super loose, chaotic, godless household, with parents that enjoyed breaking all the rules.

Now maybe I'm reading wrong, but sometimes it seems it is suggested that conservative Christians don't "get it." That someday, we'll maybe quit church, adopt some courser language expression for what some view as more "free," stop reading our bible, and go feed the poor, or STOP feeding the poor, because it's not about works. Then we will have "arrived" at some higher level of spirituality with Jesus Christ.... And that if we recently left an EN church, well then maybe there is something immature about us that time will fix, because we are tainted with EN religion. We don't understand what life or Jesus is really about.
If we care about reforming EN or about helping others inside of EN, well then we are fools. If we want to live by the rules Jesus gave us, we are self-righteous, maybe even pharisees.

Okay I may be exaggerating...but sometimes it feels exaggerated and cartoonish.

Am I just crazy wrong in seeing this broad brush stroke of conservative Christianity on this board? If I'm wrong, fantastic. If there is something to this, let's respectfully discuss it.

matt_hatter

10-09-2006, 05:58 PM

I think what you are saying is that many of us on the board had our truth muddled along the way. That, I do agree with wholeheartedly. Thank God for His truth!

dust

10-09-2006, 06:07 PM

Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say.......I can see how it was misunderstood,

john_r_jones

10-09-2006, 07:23 PM

Dust if you want to reform EN God bless you I don't see an elephant in the room. What ever our orientation is the folks in EN will be attracted to you if there is life in what you do. I find tedious the leverage of some that the important work of doing what ever is somehow tainted by us. That ideology and ploy is tiresome, fake, and obvious. If we're "idiots" then that will be obvious. Create a world, a life, a ministry that appeals to the people you're seeking to reach.

John

matt_hatter

10-09-2006, 07:51 PM

Dust, I am not a big fan of branding folks conservative Christians, because in our society, "conservative" seems to be followed with "godly", especially here in the deep south. Herein might be some of the 'rub' as the "trail" folks read statements like Krems made earlier on how he grieves for how some act on this board. My heart is equally saddened for him, being caught up in a dangerous man made theology that is extremely shallow and focuses attention away from Christ and on to things. I'll take the messiness of a bunch of folks trying to find their way over his constant disagreements any day.

Your perspective, on the other hand, is well thought out and I do read your posts often but I do know one thing for certain. Time does indeed change things. Billy Graham even said his perspective has changed as he has aged. You and I will have different perspectives on our faith in twenty years, I can almost assure you of that, because if we are here, we will be twenty years closer to leaving this earth.

I don't walk in some 'higher plane' because I am separated from MCM/EN for a longer period, but we just see things differently. Not opposing one another, but differently. I hope we can both agree that His grace has gotten us here, and will carry us through. For that, I am sure also!

jbkrems

10-09-2006, 10:16 PM

Matt:

I want to clarify something. You stated, "My heart is equally saddened for him, being caught in a dangerous man-made theology that is extremely shallow and focuses attention away from Christ and onto things."

First, my theology is not dangerous, nor is it man-made. You have never stepped a foot in my church. You do not know me, personally, nor do you know my pastor. Our theology comes from the Bible and from the Lord Jesus Himself, not from man, and it is only "dangerous" in the sense that we believe in the power of God that can transform and change lives, and be used for good things, like salvation, healing, deliverance, etc. Is that "dangerous" - ??? Yes, if you are Satan or one of his minions.

Second, my theology is not shallow, but rather it is deep. The more I study God's Word, the more I want to know God, know His power, know His wisdom, and know Jesus Christ. Shouldn't that be everyone's prayer???

Third, my theology does not focus attention away from Christ and onto things. Sure, we believe that God is Jehovah Jireh, our Provider, and that there are "things" that we do not deserve, but that God desires to give His children... even material things, e.g. cars and houses. Of course, the purpose behind such things is so that we can better be equipped to expand and enlarge the Kingdom of God, and so that we can give glory to God. But we do not focus away from Christ.

You've never met me, personally. Nor have you met my pastor. You've never attended a church service at my church. You cannot saw that my theology draws attention away from Christ, because you do not know me, nor my church. We glorify Christ, and bring all attention to Him. We praise God for the blessings He provides, whatever the blessings happen to be.

So, don't be sad for me that I am in a wrong theology, because the theology isn't wrong, but glorifies God.

lablady2

10-09-2006, 11:24 PM

I came to Factnet to find an old friend, and I did. Turns out, he's got other old friends who are here and they have friends here and they are all entertaining and pleasant to chat with.

Revisiting the olden days of MCM over this summer has been wonderful, bittersweet and nostalgic, but, lately, it's just been bitter.

I've remembered why the religious strife of those years was so damaging, and I've been reminded how people can enjoy wounding others in the name of God, even as they have been wounded.

I've come to appreciate just how peaceful my life is post religious drama and how much I like it that way.

matt_hatter

10-10-2006, 12:08 AM

And Krems, I know of very few from 25 years ago who are still involved in WOF churches. Proof enough for me. The only ones left are the the charlatans. Talk to me in 25 years, once you get married, get a career, have kids etc. It does change your perspective. Again, I am not better than you, my perspective is different.

Lab, sorry for opening this can of worms. Should have stayed away from these threads.

lablady2

10-10-2006, 12:29 AM

Matt: you didn't open this can of worms. It's easy to get entangled with the wormy stuff; I've done it myself a few times. It's so seductive, the "religious" stuff, but profits so very little.

miltietoast

10-10-2006, 12:31 AM

what youins doin over here? I have been doing manual labor for six days in a row (a new post maranatha record) I thought manual labor was a mexican. I am saddened to see that creme de la krem is still preaching his gospel and mattie is still talking to him. We need to sell a 25year pill that would give you 25 years of life experiences contradicting krems gospel. I have a paypal account we could use. Krems I still am afraid I am going to get rich,I am not confessin it though.

dust

10-10-2006, 12:45 AM

I think I wish I could just erase my post #552. Here was my last sentence on that post:

If there is something to this, let's respectfully discuss it.

I'm going to yoga.

lablady2

10-10-2006, 12:56 AM

There's a lot of unevenness on this board. For instance: may I remind some of you how very upset you were because you thought Mr. Krems was treated badly by a few on the board. All of those people apologized to Mr. Krems and have made an effort to be more restrained in their responses to him.

There is a poster here who has been unkind to me on at least two occasions strictly because of my faith. Who among you has stepped up to call this person to account? Where is that same sense of moral outrage? Absent in this case.

There's plenty of room for growth for everyone here; no one here has the corner on the moral market.

lablady2

10-10-2006, 12:59 AM

There's a lot of unevenness on this board. For instance: may I remind some of you how very upset you were because you thought Mr. Krems was treated badly by a few on the board. All of those people apologized to Mr. Krems and have made an effort to be more restrained in their responses to him.

There is a poster here who has been unkind to me on at least two occasions strictly because of my faith. Who among you has stepped up to call this person to account? Where is that same sense of moral outrage from those of you who defended krems? Absent in this case.

There's plenty of room for growth for everyone; no one here has the corner on the moral market.

lablady2

10-10-2006, 01:00 AM

Worth repeating. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

matt_hatter

10-10-2006, 01:17 AM

Thanks lab, and with that, I retreat back into the world of animals and noxious emmissions.

flo1151

10-10-2006, 01:19 AM

I agree with miltie. Matt you and lab get back to the people who care about you and not the ones with their infallible doctrines of men. I have played this game too long to be interested in even responding. I don't care if the above posters think I am a backslider, a lukewarm christian, a compromiser, or whatever they might think. I would care if you came to my door and beat me over the head with your doctrine. I can turn the radio or TV off when I hear some off the wall stuff and I can slam the door in your face if you come to my door. I guess the truth is I don't like many christians. Including a few on this board. I have a few people here who I really respect and some of them go to church and some of them don't. More power to the ones who have made that transition but I haven't. I don't feel I miss a thing. The churches I visit make me madder than when I arrived. I can't tolerate the bs. I also can't experience that every Sunday morning without ripping the little primadonna preachers head off. I went to a wof church several years ago and the pastor many times was introduced as either God's man of faith and power or Our prophet(starting to hurl, a little spit up in my mouth) If you want to go to some place with your little primadonna preacher on his pedestal than go for it. Don't judge me because that kind of church is one of the reasons that I don't go and don't miss church. big fakeYou can respond if you want but I probably won't.

flo(big meanspirited backsliding former Maranatha Pastor and executive board member)

lablady2

10-10-2006, 01:23 AM

Worth repeating. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

jbkrems

10-10-2006, 02:35 AM

Matt:

This comment is directed towards you and others on this Board who might think certain things...

The Word-of-Faith (WOF) movement is evolving and changing. Certain things remain the same, but what was once the WOF movement in the 1970s and 1980s is not the same as it has been in the 1990s, and now the 21st Century. Not only is the WOF movement more culturally relevant, but a lot of the "religious" trappings are going away, thank God. Even at my church, which is fairly "conservative" and "traditional" culturally, is loosening up a bit, and becoming more culturally relevant. Otherwise, we won't, and neither will others, grow.

What I notice in other WOF churches around the country (e.g. EMIC in Ft. Worth, Master's Touch in Orlando, Resurrection Life in Michigan, etc.) is that the WOF movement is becoming more kingdom-oriented and not as legalistic or religious as it once was. What you saw 25 years ago (a generation ago) is not the same now. I am even beginning to see changes in my own church. We finally have a Young Adult ministry going, called "Connections." Its very interactive and not as "preachy" as you might expect, as we have a small-group format that meets in the church's coffee shop. You just did not see those kinds of programs 25 years ago.

I expect that within 5 years I'll be married and well-settled in my career. Plus, within 7-10 years, I'll probably have 1 or 2 kids. However, as the Apostle Paul writes, "None of these things moves me," or will change my perspective.

40days40years

10-10-2006, 02:48 AM

The beliefs have changed but that Maranatha pride is alive and well -sniff, sniff. The spiritual elites "get it" (kind of like Star Wars where you have Yoda and the wise ones or the ones who "know" at the Jedi high council). There is no overhanging leadership or Darth Vader to lop off heads but other than that what has changed? For instance a lot of people here would have whole heartedly approved of Pat Robertson and Falwell in the old days, now their efforts are held in contempt or at least disdain by some. Somethings and some decisions were hip and now their not and vica versa. Some choices are never going to be hip though.

freedom43

10-10-2006, 02:57 AM

lab: You are right. You deserve to be defended. I think it's obnoxious and disrespectful for folks to attack your beliefs or try to prostelytize (sp) you on this board. They know good and well that you have made your choice after hearing all the facts, hearing "the gospel" etc. I have never seen you be disrespectful of other's faith here. Folks should follow your example. I was especially annoyed by posts on your blog board (your blog about your conversion!) where folks felt they had the right to attack you for converting. As you know, I have the utmost respect for you and your religion. I would have spoken up sooner but a) been real busy and and not on-line much and b) let's be frank, the same narrow-minded folks who attack you probably wouldn't take correction from someone like me.

jbkrems

10-10-2006, 03:05 AM

40: No, that's only partially true...

The beliefs have changed, in part. In fact, some WOF leaders have come out and publicly apologized for some of the former WOF beliefs, e.g. "you are not healed because you lack faith." Well, that's not always the case, and so it is rather presumptuous and judgmental for you to say that, and therefore people like Dr. Chironna, and others have apologized for beliefs like that, which have gone away.

Others in the WOF movement, e.g. Pastor George Pearsons at EMIC in Ft. Worth have trumpeted love and become more mainstream in that respect. How can a church that has "Where the Love of God is King" as its motto be a judging or condemning church? It really cannot be.

I do not believe that "Maranatha pride," whatever that means, is still alive. I see some arrogant ministers on television, BUT those ministers are NOT the majority (or even representative of) the WOF movement as a whole. There are a lot of WOF churches out there, many who are NOT on television, and that are doing the right thing.

Freedom: I totally disagree. The Bible says we are to be witnesses everywhere we go. Sure, we need to be respectful, but that does not mean we should NOT witness here on the Board. There are people here who really need to see that witness.

I also disagree that with the concept that we should follow someone's example that is not a Christian. That's wrong.

40days40years

10-10-2006, 03:26 AM

You know freedom this is a place filled with a lot of christians or at least people who have christian theological positions. If people want to go into that environment? Please if you have made a very provactive choice, don't continuously rub your choice in everybodies face with a lecture on freedom of choice and speech. Don't expect everybody to hold their tounge that is not fair. As far as your blog comment, read the start of that interaction again. A little teasing about where is the next chapter and being told to wait. Picture this, an ex-member waltzes in and says I am now muslim or hindu or wiccan and then procedes to bring up wiccan stuff dispersed throughout their many conversations?

I guess everybody should respond, oh yeah that is so wonderful those rituals are really cool, oh you rejected Jesus, no prob, it's all good. Please don't expect everybody to be like that. If the group wants to beat on me a little because I think certain choices are big deals? Fine then let the more enlightened rebuke me. You know it is not like Lab is some innocent Bambi who can not deal with a situation I have seen her rip into people quite often. I think a lot of this is about attention but if people post I am going to respond if I feel like it just like krems unless I feel led to shut up.

freedom43

10-10-2006, 03:31 AM

This board is for cult survivors/exposure. This is not a church or a street corner. Anyone who has spent more than five minutes here knows lablady's background. Believe me, if she spent more than a milisecond in Maranatha, she has already heard it all and nothing you or anyone else here has to say is going to convince her that she should unconvert. Folks should get over themselves and let her be. If you feel strongly about it, try prayer. And, I really can't believe you are saying that you do not believe there are any good role models who do not call themselves Christian or who are Jewish. That's absurd -- and frankly more narrow-minded than I expected. God can speak through anyone. Not to compare it to anyone here -- but He even spoke through a donkey in the Old Testament. Do you think the donkey was a believer?

lablady2

10-10-2006, 03:32 AM

40 days: Please cut and paste a post in which I have ripped into anyone.

dust

10-10-2006, 03:33 AM

I never called anyone any names, nor did I question anyone's faith. Nor did I present any doctrine to beat anyone over the head with. My main point was why the attitude towards the more conservative Christians. And, read it. I left plenty of room to be wrong. And to "dialogue" not fight.

Flo regarding all the names you called yourself, I never used any of those names, nor did I ever point any fingers at you. I have always been kind to you.

Lablady, it's a shame that you think what Flo wrote was worth repeating. He's in pain or he wouldn't be talking like that, and I know that church somehow messed him up, and because of that he's probably not trusting God anymore or believing that Jesus loves him. I find it sad, but not worth repeating.

lablady2

10-10-2006, 03:37 AM

free: Here's a bit of trivia. A converted Jew can never unconvert (nor would I want to). Once a Jew always a Jew, as if by birth, although you could become an apostate Jew. Also, a Jewish convert has the right of return to Israel.

lablady2

10-10-2006, 03:39 AM

dust: "worth repeating" - a joke because I goofed and posted twice - was after my post, and I accidentally dillied by posting that a second time also.

dust

10-10-2006, 03:45 AM

Got it

flo1151

10-10-2006, 03:50 AM

dust,

what if I'm not in pain, still trust God, believe that Jesus loves me. And you are wrong. True you have always been nice to me and have said nice things to me. You may be the best christian on this board. I know I am not. You just come across sometimes as selfrighteous and a knowitall. I believe you are a christian and love God but I also believe we would be far apart in what we think a church should do and look like. I have followed Lablady's posts on other threads and have enjoyed them. She has a lot of spunk and speaks her mind(which I admire). And what is the problem with her becoming jewish. I believe true jewish believers will go to heaven as quickly as the true christians. (we have been grafted into the vine)

And dust as far as my self loathing comments don't take it so seriously. My pain over the years has subsided somewhat. But I know some would say all those things of me.

wildwood_

10-10-2006, 03:51 AM

Well, Lablady...I hadn't said anything because truthfully I thought by doing so I might make things worse...and I'd hoped you'd get an apology without prompting. Here's the post I started the other day, only I never "hit" that "send" button...because when I came back to do so (having typed it in Word just in case the Ghost in the Machine decided to edit me...again): I saw that my "idea" (apparently not so original as I thought) had already been voiced and a table had been set & coffee, tea, and in my case I could picture some Bailey's on it... But, perhaps now is the time to take a couple of shots of something & do so….

So, the next post is what I should've gone on & said on Saturday perhaps... it was too long to fit with the explanation...so this explanation had to come first...

flo1151

10-10-2006, 03:52 AM

Must go to bed now. Will take this up further tomorrow.

wildwood_

10-10-2006, 03:53 AM

I am a Christian.

Those words are becoming more difficult for me to say in a strong clear voice; not because I doubt the love and grace of God as proclaimed in John 3:16 but because so many times lately those who use say they are Christians and Followers of the Lord Jesus Christ seem to show anything but the loving compassion that I feel daily in His Presence.

40/40, I read most of this thread; my heart cheered as Dust said “God is bigger than Every Nation. The blood of Jesus is more powerful..." Then I saw your “Amen”. And I cringed because to me, having seen the harshness & unexpected sharpness in how you’ve addressed Lablady’s choice to worship God Almighty as a convert to Judaism, that casts a shadow over Dust’s words of that to me do shine with the Lord's Love.
40/40…I would like to understand you better because I do not understand you now. I would like to be a friend to you as I would to anyone that I meet-- But, standing next to you…as a solid Sister in Christ…I find my feet take a couple of steps over so I’m not too close…because your words, at times and on other threads too, have not sounded like the Jesus I know.

I do not find my feet being too disturbed by standing next to Lablady’s words which do show the love of God. From her blog & her posts--her words—She has the same stubborn loving heart that all my closest friends do (they don’t always mix well with each other but in my heart I have a remarkably warm quilt where they are stitched together quietly just fine). I can easily see myself, staying out of the way in her kitchen, while enjoying a cup of coffee and arguing & debating life…knowing that we’d still be arguing ten or twenty years from now…but that through every step of the way…laughing at the absurd notion of ever getting God, or Politics, or College Sports to fit quietly in one Tupperware container…but going on walking…I bet even now if I had her phone number , I could pick up the phone & call & say “Hey I’ve Fallen and I can’t get up” and she’d figure out a way to get me up…even though we might be oh, roughly 1,800 miles apart (depending on which Interstate Highway)…and if she had mine…or Dust’s (yes they have “discussed” things strongly) but…I’m sure Lablady knows that if she called for help…in the twinkling of an eye…disagreements would be gone & help would be immediate. From her words, I’m sure that’s the type of friend Lablady would be to someone and that’s the type of friend I want to be… Maybe by the Grace of God, someday, I’ll get to be in a location & have that type of friendship with her… at the moment there’s just the blessing of this message board.

Here’s the thing…Lablady knows that I’m a Christian…therefore she also knows most likely that I’m thinking-believing, but not disrespectfully or unkindly …”Well, the Lord’s going to take of her whether she’s worshiping Him as Christ right now or not…and in the meantime what does the Lord want to teach me about Himself from coming to know her better and learning more about Judaism and the roots of my New Testament faith.”. Also, since I’m not completely, clueless…I suspect she’s probably also thinking-believing, not unkindly and tolerantly… “Not” and I’d wish Wildwood would just take me seriously when I say I’m NOT…she’s kinda dense about it….but I believe her when she says she’s praying “for me” and not “at me”…and in the meantime we can enjoy this message board together”.

40/40 maybe you just have a writing style that’s incredibly confrontational, or maybe you do not know just how needlessly harsh your words have sounded… But words do hurt…I’ve hurt others I know with my words and at times using a club would have been a kinder weapon of choice…. Please, if you’ve accidentally picked up a weapon in your speech—put it down and keep it down. Jesus Loves Us. The world will know we are HIS Disciples, Christians by our love…

j2theperson

10-10-2006, 04:10 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

40/40; Picture this, an ex-member waltzes in and says I am now muslim or hindu or wiccan and then procedes to bring up wiccan stuff dispersed throughout their many conversations?

I guess everybody should respond, oh yeah that is so wonderful those rituals are really cool, oh you rejected Jesus, no prob, it's all good.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
There is a difference between enjoying lablady's conversation and claiming that it doesn't matter she rejected Jesus and that "it's all good". I think she is an interesting, sincere, and insightful person whose presence here adds to this discussion board--that is not the same as saying all religions will get you to heaven and everything is good.

This is a discussion board--nothing more. There are no rules dictating what religion a person must be to post here. If a hindu or a muslim or a wiccan started posting on this board and had something of value to contribute then I would welcome them whether or not they wove their own religious background into their posts. Speaking personally, I've run into some Pagans who are nice, consciencious people who have valid things to say. As a matter of fact, the best dream interpreter I've ever run across is a Pagan. Does that mean that everything they say is right? No. Does it mean that when they die they're not going to have to face the consequences of their religious choices? Again, no. But that doesn't mean that I can't converse with them and value the things they say that are wise and are true.

lablady2

10-10-2006, 04:14 AM

It is my right here, on a public and open forum, to speak as openly about my religion as others speak of theirs withhout fear of reprisal. Somehow, a few people have gotten the idea that this board is only to be used to express ideas they agree with.

I appreciate you words, wildwood. I have no problem with Christians and Christianity; it's not hard to spot a real one. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif However, I do find it disappointing that other Christians have been reluctant to speak up about this behavior.

As for me, further demeaning/harassing posts will simply be reported to Factnet.

40days40years

10-10-2006, 04:15 AM

krems I was responding in that post not about WOF but about the beliefs and elitist attitudes of former Maranatha members including myself at times. Please read the interactions of the formers posting to get the context of what I wrote. Many have changed their beliefs but the idea that "they get it" and others here dont "get it", that idea has stuck around. Dust alluded to that idea in her own way. Somehow you read something into it. The old leaders of Maranatha were a little like the Jedi council.

Come on Lab you kind of took swipes at WiseDove and Dust a little, were kind of bold when saying you would not respond to Krems. Told people, don't respond then, bragged about not supporting factnet financially when you know how dear this place is to some. Your very proud of your conversion and basically said even if you knew Jesus was messiah you would reject him on principle. Your latest post shows that you are quite capable of playing tough, notice that one did have a joking quality, did not know about your dad. When people ask you a question you will switch it to freedom of speech, my kids in the military, my sick father.

Well freedom I don't know where you got the idea that I said a Jewish person or Christian could not be a role model. If you want to have the attitude that this person knows the scripture already so let them be that is your choice I do believe that attitude can be used to control conservative Christians on a message board. Lab was in Maranatha and that ministry was very poor in giving an adequate foundation on why Jesus is who they say he is so I don't even agree she is aware of all the scriptures about that subject.

matt_hatter

10-10-2006, 04:21 AM

When people ask you a question you will switch it to freedom of speech, my kids in the military, my sick father.

40, this is quite enough. Your words are cruel and hurtful. I have ignored saying anything to you for far too long. Put a sock in it. Sheesh.

mdillon

10-10-2006, 04:27 AM

LL-and I accidentally dillied by posting that a second time also.

gee labby that kinda warmed my heart

hey i try and stay away from these here parts so 'scuse the bunnymonkey. I just gotta say, anybody that messes with my friend Lablady will get dillied. (sorry i'm late labby) and if I need to, I'll get miltie to help me and trust me, you don't want a miltydilly because it involves a tutu and a wedgie.

dillyeaux

40days40years

10-10-2006, 04:33 AM

I stopped responding to Lab and then this was posted twice with the comment worth repeating. In fact if you look above at my post above I said o.k I will leave you alone to talk to Krems.

There is a poster here who has been unkind to me on at least two occasions strictly because of my faith. Who among you has stepped up to call this person to account? Where is that same sense of moral outrage from those of you who defended krems? Absent in this case.

So that is why I responded my posts are so tame compared to Titus and Bill.

dust

10-10-2006, 04:51 AM

FLo, if I was really self-righteous, don't you think I would have responded to you a LOT differently. Come on now.
And, why do I think you're in pain. It might be the "ripping the primandonna's pastor's head off" comment. Other than that....all jokes aside, I feel it. And, if I'm wrong about you believing Jesus loves you. I WANT TO BE WRONG! And, you know I mean that.

And, you don't know what I look for in a church. I realize church can be really wierd and scary. I KNOW. I am a part of a church because no matter what I believe we have to try to be in unity and maybe that means a simple house church. I don't think God is religious in this area.

I know the weight of my sins before I got saved. I think about them a lot...my fervor is to try to prevent people from falling as much as I fell. I can't go back and undo my life. But, I can talk to young people today and maybe save them from some big mistakes. No one helped me when I was a young girl or witnessed to me. It may have made a great difference, if you have been hurt from something I've said to appear self-righteous, then I ask you to forgive me.

jbkrems

10-10-2006, 05:36 AM

40: I am so sorry I misunderstood you. I thought you were responding to something different.

40days40years

10-10-2006, 05:55 AM

I understand Krems I was working on that post and did not see the one before it. I believe in freedom of speech like you Krems but if somebody says something I disagree with I will pipe up. Like I said its all good. This place seems to be very politically correct just like Maranatha, maybe even more so. Group speak, group behaviour is much stronger here then in the vast majority of the churches out there.

flo1151

10-10-2006, 11:35 AM

dust

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

flo

miltietoast

10-10-2006, 01:25 PM

flo I need some flo's done
maybe we could do them together on Sundays or the Sabbath and have church!
Crass commercial: A guy wants to sell me heartwood yellow pine flooring 1.49 sq ft,what do you think? Any ideas? Got three log cabins going up. Help

miltietoast

10-10-2006, 01:26 PM

wouch

miltietoast

10-10-2006, 01:30 PM

Lot of people here trying to find their way,at different stages (cycles) of life.Funny, Jesus seems to be the definition of proper behavior and etiquete.

freedom43

10-10-2006, 02:09 PM

Morning all -- I posted and ran again. Had to tend to baby and get some sleep. Lots of good things have been said since then.

40 -- I was responding to Krems about the role model but have been thinking about the post where you said: "I think a lot of this is about attention but if people post I am going to respond if I feel like it just like krems unless I feel led to shut up."

me: Let's not drag the Holy Spirit into this by saying we have to feel "led" to shut up. The Holy Spirit is gentle and does not harass. I see what folks call fruit of the Holy Spirit in lablady's writings (grace, love, patience, etc.) -- more than I see in many others on this board.

Speaking of harassment, if this were a workplace, lab might consider it a hostile work environment based on religious intolerance. It didn't take me long to get a better understanding of how Jewish organizations perceive efforts to convert them to Christianity. A few minutes on the Anti-Defamation League's website and I learned that they find it "offensive and disrespectful" and arrogant.

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ChJew_31/3463_31.asp

mdillon

10-10-2006, 02:21 PM

A guy wants to sell me heartwood yellow pine flooring 1.49 sq ft,

miltie that sounds like a good deal but definitely check the product, some folks like to pass off yellow pine for yellow heart because they think no one knows better.

The Flo will know...

dillyeaux

matt_hatter

10-10-2006, 02:48 PM

Krems: "I expect that within 5 years I'll be married and well-settled in my career. Plus, within 7-10 years, I'll probably have 1 or 2 kids. However, as the Apostle Paul writes, "None of these things moves me," or will change my perspective."

Krems this is why it is so difficult to engage you. Your last sentence is just so ignorant. I do not say that as an insult, I am using the word in the true sense of the definition--ie. unaware or uninformed.

Let me ask you a question: Is your perspective different now than when you were 5? How about 15? If you answer no, then you are not being truthful. If yes, it would seem reasonable that your perspective just may be different at 35 with a wife and two kids.

Here is a for instance: What if you fall deeply in love with a sweet baptist girl? She wants to continue in her church, you follow, and say, "Wow, I like it here." What if one of your children is born with a disability? And some of your old WoF friends tell you it was because you left their movement? (These are for real instances from Maranatha days, BTW) Don't you think your perspective will change?

We don't know our futures. Don't be so presumptuous to think you have it all figured out. It is statements like your quote above that limit your credibility. Again, I am not insulting you, less I get jumped on. I am just wanting you to think beyond that empty cardboard box of the WoF movement.

freedom43

10-10-2006, 03:26 PM

Somtimes I wonder if krems doesn't really exist and is nothing more than our collective persona from 25 years ago? That's why he rubs folks the wrong way -- because he sounds just like some of us at that age when we were in Maranatha.

dust

10-10-2006, 03:41 PM

Freedom
With all respect this is not a WORKPLACE, and it's NOT a hostile work environment. That's just the kind of comment that further divides this board. People come FREELY to discuss issues. Their livelyhood is not dependent on it. They can pick and choose where they bring their discussion.

Someone on the board has a particular way he worships in his Christian faith. People don't like it. They STRONGLY attack those beliefs. One could even make the argument, that they are trying to convert him. Where is your outrage to protect his faith? I defend Krems right to his beliefs in WOF, even though I don't share those same beliefs in the same way.

Most of the flaming on this board has been done to Christians for believing a certain way. I haven't seen your outrage there.

I was attacked yesterday and some strong things were said about Christians, and if those same things were said about Jews, like "I don't like most Jews and I want to rip the rabbis head off," all hell would have broken loose.

I was okay with it. I would rather have FREEDOM OF SPEECH, even if people disagree with my faith, and I know people do.

And, if you want to go give a report to factnet, I'm sure they will look at ALL the flaming on this board.

coppertree

10-10-2006, 04:37 PM

Hi All-Catching up a little
Well when I first came to this board I was attacked for a certain book. One person still tries to find a way to dig that back up. Think of it as an initiation of sorts. It is a little like hazing, one has to find their own footing and voice.}}

freedom43

10-10-2006, 04:46 PM

Dust: I have no intention of giving any reports to Factnet. And none of the comments I have posted on this issue were directed towards you. Frankly, I have been super busy and did a quick read, came across lablady's comment and remembered some things I had read on the other board that were very "in your face" and relentless towards lablady about her conversion and thought it was just too much. How many times does she have to hear it and defend her decision? That's my opinion.

You are right -- this is not a workplace. I used that to make the point about harassment and hostility. Yes, we should all say what we want, but we should also undertand the impact it has on others. Lablady is a minority here and belongs to a minority religion that has been persecuted and murdered by so-called Christians throughout history. Talk about persecution -- sorry, but I think the Jews win. Yes, she made the choice to convert to Judiaism but still. We make the choice to be Christians.

No, I have not stood up for Christians being persecuted for certain beliefs. I guess I have my own baggage/hurts in that regard. Some of those beliefs remind me of what I believed in the cult. So, it's hard to defend them. Yes, they have a right to express them. I also tend to think it's HOW we expess things that matter most. And, a know it all attitude or I'm right/you're wrong attitude always rubs me the wrong way. I'm sure I sound that way too sometimes. For that, I'm sorry. I'll work on it. I just can't ever accept again that one person or group has the monopoly on the truth, including me. I have to believe that God is the final word, the final say and that we just can't know everything now. So, I leave lablady's spiritual well being and eternal salvation to be between her and God.

Anyway, I've been persecuted here too for my beliefs -- daring to say I am a Christian and interpret scripture differently than others -- by some of the same folks who are attacking lablady. More often than not in recent years, sadly I have agreed with that bumper sticker that says "Christ, save me from your followers." But, actually, despite all the friction, that has changed some since I have come to Factnet through the interactions/dialogue I am having with some folks, including with you. For that, I am grateful.

dust

10-10-2006, 04:53 PM

Freedom
I'm not trying to be hostile, but I'm no fan of the ADL, as they are pretty clearly trying to rid Christianity or any faith for that matter, but most clearly Christianity from America.

I say PLEASE...if you want to defend lablady for 40's comments, Wildwood did an OUTSTANDING job and it brought a real Christian spirit to the board.

If it were up to the ADL, we wouldn't even be allowed to post that we believe in the bible, or use the word "Jesus" because it might hurt someone's feelings or leave them out.

Just the mere mention of the ADL on this board to me is anti-Christian because this organization's main life energy is to defame Christianity.

lablady2

10-10-2006, 05:06 PM

Maybe everyone just needs to take a breath.

In short, I'm a Jew and I'm happy that way. Many here are Christians and they are happy that way (and I'm happy for them). I would be very happy if all of this would just stop, and I promise I'll do my part to try. The only request I have, and I don't think it's unreasonable, is that if I post something about my religion as others post about their religion, that it will be respected if not accepted. Is that really so hard? It's a shame that one or two people are fueling so much disruption. But my peace in life has been hard earned and no one here is going to steal it.

dust: I think you misunderstand the purpose of the ADL. Jews do not believe that they are the only way to God and have no problem with other religions. I've never met a Jew who disrespected the Christian faith and that is the absolute truth.

freedom43

10-10-2006, 05:11 PM

Dust -- thanks for the tip on ADL. I did not know they were considered by Christians to be so hostile. I seem to recall in the past, they have done some work with folks in the Christian right, but I could be wrong.

I only referenced them to try to help folks understand how many Jews perceive Christian efforts at conversion. Most have a different world view/perspective from Christians. They don't necessarily "get" the whole Great Commission thing. (I'm sure lablady does because of her background). Jews do not try to convert others to their faith. Lablady can confirm, but I think it's kind of against their religion in some ways. Regardless, they just don't do it -- and consider it disrespectful to have it done to them, I think.

I was actually referring mostly to Wildwood's post when I wrote "Lots of good things have been said since then." I guess I should have been more specific.

lablady2

10-10-2006, 05:11 PM

I am hopping back to the bunny trails. Life is too short........

lablady2

10-10-2006, 05:20 PM

free: I'll answer part of your post. Jews don't proselytize (sp) for a few reasons, mainly because they respect the right of an adult individual to choose for him or herself what they should believe. If it turns out to be Judaism, they will find the Jews. If not, God bless.

My daughters are Christians and during my conversion process my grandkids were in Christian schools. I did not allow them to attend my conversion ceremony nor have I taken them to temple with me. I would not interfere in any way in the beliefs my children have chosen for their children (although my daughters would be more than happy for me to take the kids to temple, etc. My choice). If they have questions when the are 18, I will be happy to answer them. It's painful to hear that others think that Jews want to destroy Christianity; in the Jews point of view, there's room for everyone. That reflects an ignorance of the Jewish faith and I'm sad to see it stated as fact.

Peace out...

dust

10-10-2006, 05:33 PM

Dust: Freedom this kind of bumper sticker: "Christ, save me from your followers." I find that sad on a number of levels. And, yes there are bad Christians, but there are a LOT of GOOD ones, and this bumpersticker is a bit anti-Christian. I know you can't see that, because of your personal pain, but I don't see how it will help move toward anything good for anyone., I would see that and probably opt to avoid you just to not get involved in whatever your attitudes might be. And, that would be a shame, because even though we may have differences, we would probably like each other and be able to fellowship.

Lablady is not the MINORITY here. There are people here who are orthodox CHristians, non-orthodox, spirit filled, non-spirit filled, strict bible believing (the least popular) and interpretive bible believing, and No bible believing. There are WOFers and non WOFers and there are people from foreign countries and then there are people who aren's so sure what they believe...so there are NO MINORITIES here.

I could play that game and say, I'm not from Maranatha, I don't have the history with lab, flo, mat, miltie, dillon, tik, sameo. I'm a minority....and such. And, Krems, he could be the most minority of all...he was Jewish converting to Christian although a lot of people don't think he's a REAL Christian.

No, I'm not buying this minority, ADL, persecution stuff. Christians are persecuted all over the world and murdered every day for their faith, always have been persecuted and it's increasing. Jews are persecuted, but they don't stand alone in that.

And, no one IS FORCED here. Minority is a valuable term that makes sense when we're talking housing, jobs, political vote, opportunity. But, sadly no one here gets special treatment because they have chosen to be different. We're all different.

freedom43

10-10-2006, 06:02 PM

Dust -- for the record, there are NO bumper stickers on my car.

I respectfully disagree -- what you are describing are all sects/variations of Christianity. Judiasm is different, and I do believe that makes her a minority on these boards. I have not encountered any other self-proclaimed Jewish person in this (Mara/MSI/EN) area of Factnet. But, regardless, I'm not asking for special treatment for anybody. Just respect and perhaps empathy for differing beliefs. And, a right to post about ones life/beliefs, etc. without being harassed simply because one is not a Christian. Period.

You're right, no one is forced here. We all come here by choice -- I thought because of a common background in the same cult -- trying to expose, overcome, share our stories, heal, etc. But, it seems that is not always the case and some come here for other reasons.

dust

10-10-2006, 06:03 PM

Lablady wrote: I'll answer part of your post. Jews don't proselytize (sp) for a few reasons, mainly because they respect the right of an adult individual to choose for him or herself what they should believe.

Dust: The Christian faith is one that operates by what Jesus tells us to do, not by what we think is respecting rights. However, there is a big difference between proselytize and share. The gospel surely does offend....it's hard to pretty it up. But, please understand that it's part of what Christian is to share the faith. They are doing what God told them to do.

Lablady, it's clear you don't want to hear anything sounding like someone trying to convert you. I think any attempts in that direction would be disrespectul because you have stated your beliefs clearly.

And, it would be equally disrespectful for anyone on this board to try to tell someone how they need to believe as a Christian.
I hope we agree.

jbkrems

10-10-2006, 06:05 PM

Matt: My last sentence was a direct quote from the Scriptures. Paul actually said, "None of these things move me," in Acts 20:24 (NKJV). I challenge you to look up this verse, because it is not out of ignorance that I right. I may be naive, but at least I am being obedient to the Word of God.

You asked whether I have a different perspective than when I was 5 or 15 years old. Yes, I do, because now I am 26 and I have matured. Will my perspective be different in my 30's, when I'm married with kids? Sort of --- I probably will have a different perspective on some areas in life, such as having a family, BUT... my perspective towards church life, serving at church, my faith in God, the Kingdom of God, etc., and the kinds of issues we are discussing in this thread --- THAT PERSPECTIVE WILL NOT CHANGE, because "none of these things move me."

Further, let me address some of your examples and instances. You asked about falling in love with a "sweet Baptist girl." That's possible, but not probable. I've known several "sweet Baptist girls" in my lifetime --- but the Bible says, "Do not be unequally yoked." I'm not going to fall in love with someone who is recalcitrant against attending my church, and receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. As the potential spiritual leader of our family, I would make the decision where we as a family would go to church, and is NOT gonna be a Baptist church. Unless something really really bad happens, I'm not leaving my church --- I am VERY VERY loyal and faithful to it, and I intend to be there until Jesus comes.

Another example you asked me to consider is what if I have a child born with a disability. First, I have faith and believe this is not God's plan for my life, or for my future wife's life. I believe that God is going to protect us and our children from this sort of thing. Also, even if something like that did happen, we would just pray with our pastor and church about it, and believe "By His stripes, our child is healed."

Oh, I see, you put these two examples together, sorry. Well, such a series of events would never happen --- we CAN know our future, because God shows us our future, at times. I'm not marrying a "sweet Baptist girl." I'm marrying a tongue-talking sweet charismatic girl! Yeah!

Moving on...

dust

10-10-2006, 06:15 PM

Freedom: Dust -- for the record, there are NO bumper stickers on my car.

Dust: Sorry, I misread. Well good, I was trying to envision that and it didn't seem to fit you.

Freedom wrote: Just respect and perhaps empathy for differing beliefs. And, a right to post about ones life/beliefs, etc. without being harassed simply because one is not a Christian. Period.

Dust: How about the right to post about one's beliefs without being harassed NO MATTER WHAT, Christian or Jew or any form of Christian?

Would you agree with that?

dust

10-10-2006, 06:21 PM

Krems, before you really get pounced here...and you will...
you know there are handicapped and special needs children and they don't get healed and it's okay...so you might have that idealism now and I wont' fault you for your beliefs...but, you know healing is not 100%. And also that having a special needs child can be something wonderful..a blessing in disguise sort of....because it can be a family with a lot of love. And you know there are people on this site that have special needs children, and you're going to sound very condemning here. This is an area where you and I disagree fairly strongly, not on does God heal? But not all physical things are healed.

matt_hatter

10-10-2006, 06:22 PM

"I know you can't see that, because of your personal pain"

"He's in pain or he wouldn't be talking like that"

dust, these are the kinds of statements that lend creedence to comments regarding a "know-it all" tendency in your posts. People usually don't appreciate being psychoanalyzed, unless they make the appointment and write the check.

I have a tendency to cut the Jews some slack regarding persecution, since there are still those among us who lived through one of the most horific mass murders of all time. Americans who think they are being persecuted for being "conservative Christians" don't have a clue. An off-handed word on The View about Halloween? Please. Who cares what Rosie thinks anyway?

And as far as Krems...I count him a brother in Christ. I am just trying to get him to think a little. I am not trying to convert him, but the WoF system is not much different than EN. You speak out strongly against EN, but seem to cut WoF slack, but critisize us speaking out against it. What gives? Have you watched the WoF preachers on TV? Rod Parsley? Creflo Dollar? Looked at their lifestyle? They would be considered "conservative" Christians. How can you defend them?

And Krems, please stop with the "You don't know me or my pastor" stuff. I am talking about your MOVEMENT, not you. I am just trying to get you to think! It is shallow and dangerous, just like EN in my opinion. But I still count you as a brother in the Lord, but wonder if the feeling is reciprocal.

My post is not a personal jab at either, just my opinion.

freedom43

10-10-2006, 06:34 PM

Dust -- I agree completely that people should not be harassed about their beliefs -- unless I disagree with them. (Joke!)

It's hard here, though -- the whole cult issue is really all about beliefs and practices, isn't it? That's the crux of the pain for many. We obviously have to learn to discuss and disagree in respectful ways. There are those who have certain strongly held beliefs about many issues. There are ways to state our opinions and beliefs respectfully without attacking people personally, name calling and frankly, without beating a dead horse or repeating things or continuing bringing them up in such a way as to be obnoxious, i.e. sometimes we need to learn to agree to disagree and move on. The real key to me is attitude and humility. I do think many of us here think we are right about everything and are opinionated and vocal. That makes it hard. Plus, on-line makes it harder -- just reading posts as opposed to real face to face conversation.

matt_hatter

10-10-2006, 06:34 PM

Krems, I could have almost predicted your response. The unequally yoked comment indicates to me cult-like thinking. You can't see it, because you are on the inside, I am on the outside. Your comments about faith for not having a disabled child are simply disgusting to me. I have spent my entire career with families dealing with this whole area. Again, cult-like thinking. Dust, this kind of thinking is prevelant in his movement. Again, it is not Krems, it is the movement. Speak out against EN and WoF.

mcmstaff78

10-10-2006, 06:42 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Krems: Another example you asked me to consider is what if I have a child born with a disability. First, I have faith and believe this is not God's plan for my life, or for my future wife's life. I believe that God is going to protect us and our children from this sort of thing. Also, even if something like that did happen, we would just pray with our pastor and church about it, and believe "By His stripes, our child is healed."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Yeah, 20 years ago this is exactly where I was (though I was still older than Krems is now). But, and let me say this boldy, it didn't work! But trust me, I worked it. I had read and listened to just about everything Hagin and put out at the time. I was watching Fred Price. I working my way through E. W. Kenyon. And I was putting it all into practice. I tithed, I confessed. When my wife was pregnant I prayed the 91st Psalm over her every day. You know what, I've got a precious angel, but she's deaf. And, yep, we confessed "by His stripes" she's healed. We "stood on the word". Our pastor prayed for her. She was "prophesied" over by "men of God" from California to Nigeria. I took her to a Benny Hinn "Miracle" crusade (yeah, sit down close at one of those and see how your stomach does afterwards). You know what, she's *still* deaf. But she's also on the dean's list at her college (she's now a sophomore) and one of the best people you'd ever want to be around.

The stories you don't hear coming out of WoF circles would fill books refuting those you do.

Dust - Krems get's knocked around a bunch here because he comes trying to refute the practices, beliefs and experiences of those who've lived through spiritual abuse and he perpetuates a system that, at it's core, is spiritually abusive. I'd expect far worse treatment if I went to a WoF forum and talked about my faith and tried to refute what they were writing.

But one of the (few) things I've learned in my life is that no man knows what tomorrow may bring and that life is a pilgrimage. Where we are today is not where we will be tomorrow or next year. I am convinced of the truth of my beliefs, but I was also 25 years ago. God judges.

"Behold, now you that say: To-day or to-morrow we will go into such a city, and there we will spend a year and will traffic and make our gain. Whereas you know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is a vapour which appeareth for a little while and afterwards shall vanish away. For that you should say: If the Lord will, and, If we shall live, we will do this or that. But now you rejoice in your arrogancies. All such rejoicing is wicked." James 4: 13-16

matt_hatter

10-10-2006, 06:53 PM

MCM, thank you for your thoughtful post. We serve Him because He is God, not for some "plan" for our lives.

We have a rehab counselor on staff who has a progressive hearing loss, and is now totaly deaf. Has been a wonderful role model to the deaf community and has assisted many young hearing impaired people with post secondary education.

robert_unknown

10-10-2006, 06:55 PM

Krems has not been in tribulations yet. His faith hasent been stretched to its limits.
I have been where you have been, Jonathan, together with my faith friends. And I have seen things, that you would not believe. I have been proud like you and have talked like you about the future and about my faith.

I have seen "men of faith" commiting suizide, when things came down. I have seen "anointed preachers" leaving their missionfield, when things got tough. I have seen faith people loosing integrity and every sense for moral.

And my life also got shaken up and down. I cannot write anything here, because i will be identified, but believe me, Jonathan, God will find his way through to you. He will shake you, and then you will find out what real faith is: bowing before the King of Kings, DESPITE the circumstances and DESPITE your world breaking down.

You will think back on this time here, like I think back on my arogance and on my pride. I was EXACTLY like you involved in internet discussion forums (Usenet, by then) and encountered the same discussions like you do here. I did not understand what the told me. I thought they have no real faith...

You WILL think differently, Jonathan. Remember - the only thing that will prevail at the end is not how you feel now, nor what you think now. The only thing that will prevail is God and His word!

mcmstaff78

10-10-2006, 07:06 PM

According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)

Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:6-9)

dust

10-10-2006, 07:36 PM

Freedom, Everything you just said, DITTO. I really like you Freedom. I see your repentive, Christ-like Spirit. No I love you..you're my sister.

I especially like the WHY BEAT A DEAD HORSE? It's like everyone knows what Krems believes. Be done...it's said, shake the dust off...move on.....My husband calls it watering dead flowers. I tend to do that a lot with some people in my business. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

wisedove

10-10-2006, 07:52 PM

Hello, everyone. I have been staying out of this one, but will be responding later when I have more time, for there are a few things i finally feel like I can contribute to these discussions on this thread...

wow. I have been busy at home and haven't stayed caught up. I will try to catch up, and post more tonight.

First of all, and this comes TOTALLY in a spirit of love, Krems, btw, I want to share something with you.

I never imagined my life would be the way it has turned out. NEVER. I will go as far as saying I have been very disappointed in the way my life has turned out. But, God is on the throne. He sits in the heavenlies surrounded by 4 beasts and 24 elders who are worhipping Him day and night, as King of Kings and Lord of lords, and He is on the throne. NO one was found worthy to open the scrolls in the book of Rev., but HE walked up to His Father and TOOK His rightful place as the ONLY one worthy to rule and reign over all of the earth, and in the midst of our circumstances and all of the things He is allowing to happen here on earth, HE still sits on the throne.

That has not been an easy thing for me to grasp, for i was allowed to have a family with disabilities. I think I myself might have some type of disability, to be quite honest....

I have been allowed to have my firstborn nearly dead at birth, and disabled (mildly, praise the Lord) things could have been worse. On top of that, there's ADHD to deal with in the other child, (myself, too, i'm convinced) and Learning disabilities all around. HE is still on the throne. It is not a curse that things are this way for us. It is not because we are out of His will. He has a plan greater than the one I had for myself. I still want to know what it is....

I hope you don't have to go through many disappointments, but if/when you do, perhaps you'll remember a little of what you learned here to help you get through them.

wisedove

10-10-2006, 08:00 PM

cont.

Before He formed us in His womb, He knew us. BEFORE we were even conceived. WOW. I can try to blame the doctor's and hospital for what happened. (and did try) but He is on the Throne.

People can reject Him here, and they WILL reject Him during the 7 year tribulation, but that does not make Him any less LORD or KING. All it is gonna take when He returns is HIS Word, with just one Word out of His mouth, all of those that will try to come against Him with the Anti-Christ and False prophet will be annialated, with a single WORD out of His mouth.

He is patient in giving each living, breathing person on this earth to just accept Him and believe His Word is true, knowing that some will still reject Him, even when they see Him riding on that white horse with the name "King of Kings" on His thigh, they will still go against Him.

I shared all of this because I am studyting Revelation, and have gotten a new perspective of Jesus as a result. There are a lot of opposing views here, but it does not make Jesus less of Lord, and He is sitting on the throne...

dust

10-10-2006, 08:22 PM

Matt, If FLO has a problem with me, he can talk to me. himself. He knows that. I had a choice with his attack. Attack back or try and understand him, see through his eyes. It doesn't take a shrink to see pain okay. And I did my best to take that high road. This is was situation that had a peaceful ending...but you had to bring it back up and bring possible division between me and Flo.

Regarding Rosie, She is anti-Christian, she's KNOWN for this. And just because it didn't have the drama or horror of Nazi Germany (where many Christians died also, and my Christian friend was imprisoned as a child) doesn't mean it wasn't still persecution. And, how does a horror start. Changing the minds of people first...spreading anti-sentiment.

RE: WOF - You can't find any postings of mine supporting WOF. Not anywhere. I don't defend KREMS, as much as his right to RESPECTFUL DISAGREEMENT, minus the personal attacks, name calling. And, I'll defend anyone that get flamed a lot mostly by a group..whether I agree with their content or not.

You bring up TBN. You have me mixed me up with someone else. I don't watch TBN (except to see what they are up to) or follow any Christian Celebrity pastors. TBN, prophets, prosperity cloths, etc. so far from our style...from who we are. You ask me these questions like you're going to find some hypocrisy or hole in my faith. Maybe you will...Well praise the Lord, He'll correct it.

dust

10-10-2006, 08:29 PM

Dove:

Well said and with love and kindness...and this is the best we can try to do...I think about your situation a lot, Dove, and all you are going through and I do believe that a lot of it faithful prayer can help (you know what I mean) and that other parts are there to bring out the best love you have inside and God is glorified.

Your post was awesome!

lablady2

10-10-2006, 08:29 PM

Dust: "The Christian faith is one that operates by what Jesus tells us to do, not by what we think is respecting rights. However, there is a big difference between proselytize and share. The gospel surely does offend....it's hard to pretty it up. But, please understand that it's part of what Christian is to share the faith. They are doing what God told them to do."

I wasn't referring to what the Christian faith does or does not do in my post. If you'll reread it, I was simply answering Freedom regarding what the Jewish faith does.

Dust: "Lablady, it's clear you don't want to hear anything sounding like someone trying to convert you."
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If people on this board would simply attempt to convert me, I'd be thrilled. It's the ugly, personal attacks I mind. And if those are an attempt to convert me to Christianity, someone might consider going back to the drawing board. Failing miserably. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif
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