Jesus Camp The Movie [Archive] - Page 2

jbkrems

10-10-2006, 10:43 PM

Dust: I'm going to respond to you briefly, but if you want a fuller response, please e-mail me. It is not "OK" (or acceptable, etc.) for handicapped and special needs children to NOT get healed. I know one personally. You're right in that it can foster a lot of love in the family (it also can foster a lot of other issues, too).

But, not being whole in spirit, soul, mind, AND BODY is NOT God's best. You've already stated you disagree, but God does not want His children handicapped, etc., when healing has been provided for in the atonement, and the Bible is very clear that God does not wish His children to lack in the area of healing.

I realize that not everyone receives their healing, and I don't know why. But not everyone receives salvation, either, and that is NOT OK, either.

I further realize that some here may have special needs children, and they should know that God loves them and their children, but that God does not want their special needs children to remain that way forever... God wants those children to be healed and whole, in Jesus name.

Again, if you want a more fuller response, please drop me an e-mail... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Matt: I understand you're talking about the WOF movement "as a whole." The problem is you cannot take what you see on TV with Parsley, Dollar, etc., and say "these people represent the WOF movement," because that would not be entirely true. Its just like the U.S. Congress. You cannot really say that the people who are elected to the House of Representatives in Washington fairly represent everyone in the U.S., because it just isn't so. There is too much diversity, and so forth. Is that clear?

Also, Matt, I am quoting Scriptures from the Bible. If you're a Christian, you should be, hopefully, reading your Bible, too. How can I be in a "cult-thinking" mode when I just quote Scripture to you, in order to respond to you???

mcmstaff: Here we go again. I don't listen to countless tapes and CDs of Hagin and Price, etc. I don't even watch Copeland everytime he is on TV. There are a few who I regularly watch their programs, and there are a few who I like to read (which I rarely have time to do), but they aren't the same as who you mention.

I'm sorry to hear about your daughter who is hearing impaired. Have you stopped believing God for Him to remove her hearing problems? Does she believe God for her own healing? Just trying to help. Reading books, listening to tapes, and going to crusades is not the answer, but faith in God is the answer, and having people stand with you in faith is the answer.

Personally, right now I am believing God for something in my own life, and there are those who, for different reasons, are not standing with me... dealing with those people are a real challenge.

Wisedove: Not sure how to respond to you. I figured Dust was referring to you when she made some of her comments. How would you LIKE me to respond to you???

mcmstaff78

10-10-2006, 10:57 PM

JBK: As soon as you can show me one fully medically documented healing of someone deaf by any of your WoF "healers" I'll start to consider your response. Or fully documented healing of someone born blind.

No, physical healing is not in the Atonement. That is a total misread of the relevant scriptures. I won't argue, but don't try to tell me about believing for healing. Been there, done that. I believe God and I trust Him - to see us through the trials not deliver us from them.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

LL2: If people on this board would simply attempt to convert me, I'd be thrilled.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Well, okay...God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

Seriously, LL, take a visit to an Orthodox church sometime and experience the Divine Liturgy before you write off Jesus completely. Like I said before, life's a pilgrimage. It's amazing the places God sometimes takes us.

(Message edited by mcmstaff78 on October 10, 2006)

matt_hatter

10-10-2006, 11:41 PM

Dust, I am waving the white flag on this end, sorry to create more strife. I respect your walk with the Lord and the journey you are on.

dust

10-10-2006, 11:52 PM

Matt
THANK YOU.....I'm going to go bake you an AMISH apple pie from my Amish cookbook. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

matt_hatter

10-11-2006, 12:12 AM

Slip a little scoop of REAL 'nilla ice cream on top. I won't tell Allie. Man, this sugar free ice milk stuff...I know, it's better for me. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lame.gif

wisedove

10-11-2006, 12:14 AM

krems-
I will be able to respond more later, for I have many responsibilities and distractions right now, but for now, I just want to share something..

A dear couple at my former church had a severely disabled child. We all prayed for her healing. She died at the age of 2. God gave me a nice word for them that their daughter was whole. She was walking and leaping and praising God, in heaven. Some people get there total and complete healing after their earthly life.

I don't know if my child's issues were a result totally of the birth complications and injuries she sustained. I almost died having her. All I do know is that before God formed us in our mother's womb, He knew us.

It would be a miracle if my child could eat an entire personal pan pizza at one sitting....it would be a miracle if she could gain 5 pounds a year instead of barely 1 or 2. Sure, having a child with special needs brings out love in families, but in mine, it brought heartache and distress, pain and suffering, but I couldn't even imagine not having her just the way she is..everyone who knows her is touched by her. I can't say the same about everyone who knows me.

matt_hatter

10-11-2006, 12:35 AM

dovie, your honesty and genuine love for God and your child are rare things these days. You have my prayers...am out the door on an errand with you and family on my mind.

JBK, it is Groundhog Day once again. You are at an place in your life where you are just unteachable unless it is the things you want to hear. So many have given you things to ponder and meditate on and you have just thrown them aside with a quick response. I have tried to stay away from personal attacks with you and challenge you to think. I don't want you be like me, I just want you consider a more contemplative approach.

Life is not a neat little package, tied up the way you think it is going to be. Will you yet praise Him? That is the decision in the affimative that dove, mcm78 and others have made. Your time will come to answer that question too.

He is on the throne, dovey, and we are like playground kiddies to Him here on factnet, sometimes playing, sometimes fussing, sometimes praying, and I'll bet He just smiles.

wisedove

10-11-2006, 01:10 AM

yes, matt. I'm sure He smiles at us...Thanks for your thoughts.

lablady2

10-11-2006, 01:29 AM

mcm: I appreciate your offer and the spirit in which is is intended. Trust me, I did my homework and I'm very happy.

jbkrems

10-11-2006, 01:53 AM

mcmstaff: That is not my responsibility. However, physical healing IS provided for in the atonement, and until you change your beliefs to agree with that concept, you are not going to be able to receive anything from the Lord.

I could cite you probably a half dozen Scriptures to prove my point, but I will spare you the trouble, since your mind is already set in the opposite direction.

Also, you do not believe God will deliver you from your trials??? That is not the Bible way, God is our deliverer.

Wisedove: OK... if you'd rather e-mail me, ask Dust for my personal e-mail.

Matt: No, I am not unteachable --- I submit to my pastor, and others at my church, and I am under their teaching authority. However, this forum is not a church. If you think I am unteachable, it is only because you and others here are desiring to teach me, and this is not a place I come to be taught. This is a place where I come to share and fellowship, and this is a place I come to learn about the ins and outs of EveryNation, etc. This is not a church.

freedom43

10-11-2006, 02:23 AM

mcmstaff and wisedove -- thank you for sharing your stories here. I am moved to tears by both of them and the arrogance and ignorance you are facing in someone who could dare stand by and say that all it takes is faith. I really am speechless and seriously am aching/praying right now for you all and the pain that is inevitable for someone so naive -- not even sure that is the right word but can't think of another one at the moment.

matt_hatter

10-11-2006, 02:53 AM

"This is a place where I come to share and fellowship,"

Mr Krems, What I have read in here for months is your idea of sharing and fellowship? I think you secretly enjoy causing folks pain. I have no goal of teaching you, only using your posts to expose the heartlessness of a horrible doctrine. And you make it easy, you are a textbook case of the danger of the WoF movement.

I am aching too, freedom. And I am gone.

jbkrems

10-11-2006, 03:15 AM

Matt:

If you think I secretly enjoy causing folks pain, then you are deceived, because that is definitely not my intent. I do wish to bring healing and wholeness here, although I believe most people do not have their doctrine right in order to receive what God has for them in that area. In other words, they have much unbelief in God's ability to heal them, physically, emotionally, etc.

If you have the goal of using my posts to "expose the heartlessness of a horrible doctrine," of what I guess is what you believe concerning the WOF movement, then you definitely are deceived, because you wish to attack your brothers in the faith (those who are WOF).

wisedove

10-11-2006, 04:07 AM

freedom,
reading that you were almost moved to tears nearly moved ME to tears. Thanks for your kind words.

Krems,
I don't have unbelief that God has the ability to heal ANYONE!!! I might have anger that healing doesn't come quick enough, or it doesn't look the way that I think it should, but i do not doubt God's ability to heal. I am learning that I have a huge part to play in this faith thing. It is called PRAYER. Sometimes that's all I have. Oh, believe me, my prayers are not always holy. I have done my share of yelling at God. Plenty of times. Did that move Him? HA HA HA! No, that just gets me going around the mountain once again.

(I really am laughing my head off.)http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif
truly!) At what? who knows. Something just came over me. Holy laughter...that happens when there's nothing to really laugh about. Can't explain it.

JBK, don't know if you ever read my post when i shared this before, but the first prophetic word I had ever gotten was at a women's aglow meeting, and I was not in church at the time. My children were 2yrs old and 8 months old. I had been trying to find out what was wrong with my child for 2 years.

I knew the sting of the accuser of the brethren deeply at that time, for He came against me falsely as being the cause for my child's disabilities.

The prophetic word to me was "God wants me to tell you one thing....Father...He is your loving Father..." It went on and on, and between sobbing I was able to catch most of it. But, one thing that stood out was that The minister told me that God wanted me to know that as I rocked my child and sang to her, He touched her and healed her. I knew EXACTLY what He meant. In my times of GREAT heartache and Distress, i could only sing "Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so." over and over as I rocked my child.

I'd sing it with tears strolling down my face. I sang it being angry at God and hurt that He was allowing so many horrible things happen to me. I told God, "If you are trying to teach me some kind of lesson, please don't use my child's health and well being to do it." (As if I know the way God should work in my life.)

It has taken years before I was able to share this way. God Heals. Sometimes it doesn't look the way we think it is supposed to look. He still heals. He gave me that promise. I stand on that even today. Things are still frustrating. I am still dealing with anger and hurt. Doesn't take Him off of the throne.

miltietoast

10-11-2006, 04:18 AM

flo you still have your mantle?how would it look with heartpine floors?

jbkrems

10-11-2006, 04:24 AM

wisedove:

If you are dealing with anger and hurt, then you need deliverance. Your anger and hurt is probably (although NOT certain) affecting your prayer life and could be a hindrance.

Do you pray for God to heal your children? Do you believe He will???

If you have not turned your life's disappointments over to Christ, so God can heal YOU, then that stands in the way of you receiving what God has for you and your family.

Further, you should not be openly confessing, "I was allowed to have a family with disabilities," and so forth --- when you say things like that, you are putting limits on God by taking ownership of what Satan has given. You should be praying and declaring over your children, "By His stripes, they are healed," and so forth, and not the kinds of things I've seen you write here.

matt_hatter

10-11-2006, 04:35 AM

krems, please, I entreat you, be quiet. Dove, do you see why I said he just needs to be ignored? Please don't respond to him. He will only keep this cruel nonsense going.

You don't need deliverance. You don't need to 'watch your words' with God. He is soverign. A formula won't move him. God has no limits. He loves you and your babies with an umeasurable love and His grace for you is unending. Keep talking to Him in the way that is special between you and Him.

miltietoast

10-11-2006, 04:40 AM

I am afraid I am going to be rich.
Some guy drove up to my house I am building and dropped off a set of plans. I am scared to death I will be building 4 house at once.

wisedove

10-11-2006, 04:44 AM

Matt-
Thanks! Are we back to that again? I guess I get it. Can't I at least respond?!Heheh (I am laughing over here. it's a good thing.)

wildwood_

10-11-2006, 04:47 AM

Hey Jonathan! Hatter!
Hmmm, interesting discussion. But, JBK, Hattr was standing as a grown man offering the wisdom that his life with Jesus has blessed him with...to you, in kindness. He's not worried about the WOF doctrine, he just might be worried about YOU. No, this board is not a "Church", in many ways, it's truer and more honest than the Sunday Morning Faces who all smile and any hurts or pains stay deeply hidden; any doubts or fears drowned out by Praise & Worship Songs... This board is the middle of night...when I am most alone with my heart & my Lord & I talk-pray-think-ponder on Jesus and how all the odd pieces of randomness are not random but solid stitches done by God's Own Hand. Sometimes, I doubt, I cry, I worry. But, mostly, I see the kindness of a loving God who has brought me to this place at this moment in my Life... To what end, I know not. I just know that by being here and interacting with these folks on the board...letting them see my heart and them letting me see theirs---well, I've grown in the Wisdom of the Lord. And I've grown in the wisdom of myself.-who I am and- who I am & ALWAYS WILL BE IN CHRIST.

Here's a remarkable bit of wisdom that's been shared by Hatter: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Life is not a neat little package, tied up the way you think it is going to be. Will you yet praise Him? That is the decision in the affimative that dove, mcm78 and others have made. Your time will come to answer that question too. He is on the throne, dovey, and we are like playground kiddies to Him here on factnet, sometimes playing, sometimes fussing, sometimes praying, and I'll bet He just smiles.)<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>}

I know that you have a very solid leadership team at your Church, and someday I do plan to take you up on your offer to visit. Would you mind inquiring of your Pastor what his view regarding "Healings" that do not happen...and events such as a Drunk Driver unexpectedly swerving into your lane of travel & causing you or your family terrible injuries. Unexpected things have the way of opening the doors to the Lord's Holy of Holies (My way of thinking)...because in those moments of grief & despair, only the Father knows our pain & He has promised to wipe every tear drop from our eye.

I believe that no one wishes to change you JBK--we above else wish you to be able to learn from our openess and from our mistakes... Perhaps you have. And we are learning from you...your continued dedication to serve a Living Loving God--Not some passive God who just watches His creation from afar...but a Real LOVING CARING Lord who weeps with us and YES I know He surely wants us all healed & Holy unto Him. Now How He achieves that process...that's where I step aside and say "I don't know how" I just know that He does Love Us Beyond ANYTHING WE COULD EVER DREAM... Sometimes those "Gifts" at first do not look like Blessings...I never thought My Daughter's disability would be such a Hope. But it is...My Daughter Loves truly unconditionally and without fear....now that's a "health" that many of us here on the board do not have...

JBK please except the handshake that Hattr offers & get to know him if you can without annoying each other too much--there's much to learn & Hattr may have a few things to learn himself & perhaps you are the right teacher. Accept that the Lord has brought us all together to work His Good Purpose... I stand amazed that people from such vast backgrounds can still find common ground at the foot of the Cross...as we wait for the Morning Sunrise of Jesus.!

wisedove

10-11-2006, 05:01 AM

I lost my post....So here I will try this again.
Jb, thanks for trying to share with me what you think is necessary for my circumstances to change. I must say that it feels a bit like condemnation, and knowing that condemnation is not of the Lord, what you are sharing must not be from Him. God knows my heart. He knows my faith. I don't look at my confession as a negative one. I look at me saying that I have been allowed to have a family with disabilities as a sign that God must think I am able to handle it, for He does not give us more than we can handle. He must think I am pretty tough, because I have had to handle some pretty horrible things, and I am not just talking about a disabled child here.

Sure, I pray for them to be healed. It's a done deal as far as I'm concerned. I'll see the fruit of it whenever God allows me to. Like I said, things could have been much worse.
I am done for the night on this topic.

wisedove

10-11-2006, 05:11 AM

wildwood,
God works in mysterious ways. For the longest time, I had no one to discuss what life was like as a new mother, with a gift of a new child, and then being dissappointed that things didn't exactly turn out the way you thought they would, yet they are still blessings. Then, I was able to connect with you here. We share a sorta common thing with the disability thing....I'm thankful for that.

You are right. There is something about having a child with special needs. Perhaps I just can't picture her any other way than the way she is....with each new year, there's more development and growth, and she worships Jesus with out inhabitions....(sp?) like I said above, she touches everyone who knows her, unlike myself....I said I was through, then I saw your post!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

jbkrems

10-11-2006, 05:23 AM

Wildwood: First, responding to that quote, I am well aware of that, and I praise God always, for the victory that I have in Him.

My pastor is unfortunately unavailable... he's leaving (after the Sunday service) for a 3-week trip to Romania. So far as "healings" that do not occur, we still believe that God is going to heal. We believe we should speak by faith the miracle that God is to perform. Just because we say, "By His stripes, so-and-so is healed," does not mean that healing has manifested yet. THAT is why we need faith.

So far as the drunk driver testimony that you offered --- God can heal those injuries, also. We have testimonies of healings that actually did occur (no, they are not documented, but as far as we are concerned, the did occur), as a result of car accidents and that sort of thing. Its happened at least twice in the past few years, one major accident before I was going there, at least one other since I've attended, and I know the people involved, personally. But God has healed them all. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Wisedove: No, I think you're deceived. If you're saying I am sounding "condemning," I'm not condemning you at all. However, you still choose to NOT receive what I said. That's your choice, but you'll be held accountable for it.

God does know your heart, and your level of faith. However, God wants to help you enlargen your faith in Him, and His ability to heal, and deliver, both you, and your children.

Also, if you cannot picture your child healed and whole in Jesus name, then that says something about your faith life. You should see her healed and whole, in Jesus name.

robert_unknown

10-11-2006, 07:45 AM

"Wisedove: No, I think you're deceived. If you're saying I am sounding "condemning," I'm not condemning you at all. However, you still choose to NOT receive what I said. That's your choice, but you'll be held accountable for it. "

thats exactly the things, that make it difficult with you Jonathan. You are not Christ, and no one will be held accountable, if he receives not what you say. thats NOLR thinking, and thats cultish. Everyone here respects a word, and encouragement, an advice.
but you come over so arogant sometimes, that i dont wonder that you face the resistance of people here.

robert_unknown

10-11-2006, 07:46 AM

i agree on much about faith, but the way you communicate things is neither wise, nor in love. Please consider this.

jbkrems

10-11-2006, 09:24 AM

Robert:

A few comments...

No, I'm not Christ, but I do represent Him. And so do you, by the way. And so does Wisedove, and everyone else here, who claims to be a Christian. (This obviously excludes Lablady.)

If you choose to not receive something that I, or anyone else says, perhaps prophetically, then you are held accountable for your choices by God Himself (not by anyone here). I'm not saying that I or anyone else here holds anyone personally accountable for anything that goes on here. This is not a church, and none of us are pastors. We have no authority to hold anyone else accountable, unless we MUTUALLY agree to such, and I've not seen any of that go on here.

Next, you comment that my kind of thinking is both "NOLR," and "cultish." I disagree, and I really do not know what you are talking about. Perhaps if you explain why my thinking is "NOLR" and "cultish," I can dialog with you on why that is so. You can do so either here publicly, or send me a private e-mail at jbkrems@excite.com, and I would be more than happy to discuss this with you further.

Finally, I will consider how to better phrase my thoughts here --- I do want to come across "wise as a serpent, and harmless as a dove." Thank you for your suggestion.

mcmstaff78

10-11-2006, 01:10 PM

Why is it never the responsibility of someone espousing how it's God's will to heal everyone to demonstrate some actual evidence of this? quite honestly, in the 9 years I was involved in WoF, and the 20 eyars I was charismatic, I never once saw or saw substantiated what I would term a truly miraculous healing. Any "healings" claimed were never conditions that had already been medically verified, but those ambiguous things like "back pain", "headaches", the old "leg lengthening" trick, etc. In fact, the one person I knew who I truly believe was healed of God from lupis (even that I never saw documented) was healed while she was, IIRC, a Baptist.

But someone says to me, "it's God's will to heal the deaf" - well, show me the deaf He's healed in your midst. I certainly believe God is able, but we sure don't see it among the WoFers. My experience has been they hide their ailments rather than demonstrate any "lack of faith.

Jonathan, you just engaged in what you said you didn't believe - if I only had faith I'd see my daughter healed. Well, I exercised faith for her healing for 4 years. I heard prophesy after prophesy that her healing was just around the corner. That God was going to do "a mighty act". But you know, I had to quit worrying about God healing her and start working and preparing her for life. Like the three Hebrews before Nebuchadnezzar, I confessed God able to deliver but even if He did not, I would not bow down to false gods or give in to the trials.

For behold our God, whom we worship, is able to save us from the furnace of burning fire, and to deliver us out of thy hands, O king.
But if he will not, be it known to thee, O king, that we will not worship thy gods, nor adore the golden statue which thou hast set up. Dan. 3: 17-18

God delivers from trials, He also delivers us in the midst of them. He takes us through them. God took the three Hebrew children *through* the fiery furnace. I already quote scripture that shows that our faith is tried - but so many people ignore scriptures that are inconvenient to their beliefs. This is the epitome of what is meant by scriture twisting.}

robert_unknown

10-11-2006, 02:27 PM

Jonathan, I know you dont know that you sound arrogant sometimes, and i believe the best, and assume you dont do it by purpose.
therefore i comment it then and there, in the hope you will understand what i mean.

I do NOT believe that God will hold wisedove acountable for not taking your advice or what you tell her! the only things God holds us accountable for one day, will be our sins (thank God we wont be judged for them cause Christ was) and for every senseless word spoeken in vein (i hope i spell this right).

If you have a good advice for dove or if you want to encourage her, please do it in LOVE, with humility and respect her dignity and even her rejection. You cannot force people to accept your beliefs (wheter they are wrong or right), and by telling someone, that he will be held "accountable" for rejecting what you say, you use - i hope unknowingly - cultic tricks of manipualtion and mind-controle.

please dont do this!

formermaranathapastor

10-11-2006, 05:54 PM

In love, let me say that all here are sincere and are seeking to do what is right. But some here are unfortunately acting in spiritual violence to try to convince others they are right. This is very harmful and dangerous.

It reminds me of the whole MCM mess. We all wanted to be used of God and by God for His Kingdom, but somewhere along the way we became part of the problem.

In the quiet place of the heart, I will consider if anything I say, however right I think it to be, is harmful and abusive to others.

dust

10-11-2006, 05:54 PM

Everything Robert said,
Dust

Jonathan, Our faith is like a pie and not pie wedges. You are bringing crust, but not the filling. Crust is great (the body of Christ, the bread of life does indeed bring abundance, and does indeed bring us healing), however there is also the fruit, the filling....and that is love, patience, kindness, longsuffering, mercy, and then some........

Please step back and think for a minute. If people only get crust to eat, they may throw it away. You take healing to extremes and then people REJECT healing altogether. I've been frustrated at times with my Christian friends who REJECT healing, but equally frustrated with Christian friends who don't embrace SUFFERING. Sometimes HEALING is on the OTHER SIDE OF SUFFERING.

I went for a short time to a presbyterian church that rejected the gifts of the Spirit. We would have prayer requests in our Sunday school. I never heard so much illness, cancer, tragedies in my life...all in this little group, and they would NOT PRAY for healing. This is the EXTREME of what KREMS believes, but almost the same thing....We left that church....it was really depressing.

Then on the other side is a church (Jonathan, this might be yours) that takes healing to such an extreme because it puts the actual "power" of the healing on the person and this brings condemnation.

The TRUTH is closer to this: GOD CAN HEAL ANYONE, ANYTIME, the same as he can STOP ALL WAR, STOP ALL POVERTY, RID THE WORLD OF EVERY DISEASE and EVERY DISCORD.

But, God has allowed a process to take place. A little girl gets killed by a drunk driver. If you or your pastor or your church can't revive her back to life, then you have your answer. It's not a 100% deal.

I'm only responding not to convince Krems of anything, but that the people reading here wouldn't eliminate the idea of miracles and healings because of others having extreme beliefs. I have witnessed tumors disappearing after prayer. There are documented statistics in the power of prayer and healing.

JESUS AT THE CROSS: Jesus wasn't HALF-man, but 100% human and He rose from the dead through the power of God. And, Jesus made Himself known through physical healing. It's a huge part of his legacy.

COUNTERFEIT HEALING: The idea of 100% is counterfeit because it distorts and perverts. It only makes sense that the devil enters the picture to distort and pervert (through extreme WOF, snake handling, etc.) something wonderful.

I have a friend who was recently diagnosed with a disease and I'm believing 100% for her 100% healing. And, I don't think she needs to DO anything to receive it, but if it doesn't happen, she is not less a Christian...or am I....I just want to put my focus on what GOD can do, not what the devil can do.

Does this make me WOF? I hope it just makes me a new testament Christian, with the whole pie.

mcmstaff78

10-11-2006, 06:19 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

dust: JESUS AT THE CROSS: Jesus wasn't HALF-man, but 100% human and He rose from the dead through the power of God.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Dust, I'm curious as to what you mean by this. At the Council of Chalcedon, Cyril of Alexandria declared "We teach . . . one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, known in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation." This was agreed by all those present to be the true faith.

Anyway, just curious as to what you meant by your statement.

dust

10-11-2006, 07:01 PM

MCM:
What I failed to mention there (taking it for granted) is that he was also 100% God. When I say 100% human, I mean fully human.

The union does not destroy the difference of the two natures, but on the contrary the properties of each are kept, and both are joined in one person." (Quoted in The Story of Christianity, volume 1 by Justo L. Gonzalez, HarperSanFrancisco, 1984).

This DUAL nature is, indeed, a mystery, and if Jesus was fully Human, and those natures of Jesus (man and God) weren't traded, one for the other, then He as man (and God) was also resurrected because He didn't resurrect and discard that fully human nature either.

Please don't think I think I have a full grasp on this...I don't think I do.
Thanks for bringing this up.

mcmstaff78

10-11-2006, 09:08 PM

Thanks Dust. I would quibble with the term "DUAL Nature". Christ had (has) two natures, human and divine. He is one person (hypostases) with two natures (ousia). This can be contrasted with the Nicean understanding of the Triune God-head which is three Persons (hypostases) with one nature (homoousia). Christ was (is) in every sense man and in every sense God.

mcmstaff78

10-11-2006, 09:08 PM

Thanks Dust. I would quibble with the term "DUAL Nature". Christ had (has) two natures, human and divine. He is one person (hypostasis) with two natures (ousia). This can be contrasted with the Nicean understanding of the Triune God-head which is three Persons (hypostases) with one nature (homoousia). Christ was (is) in every sense man and in every sense God.

mcmstaff78

10-11-2006, 09:09 PM

Oops, I did a dilly!!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

dust

10-11-2006, 09:31 PM

Oh, okay.....I guess dual nature isn't TWO natures, but that's how I meant it......I see your point...it's a good one.

wisedove

10-11-2006, 10:02 PM

Hi Robert, and the rest...
Robert, thanks for jumping in here and trying to help settle this issue that has risen about God, Faith, and healing. I appreciate your words and your thoughts.

There are tons more I feel i can share, and perhaps may share more insight later when I don't have 100 things pulling at me like i seem to have lately. After kiddos are in bed (hubby is away on a fishing trip....http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif) which means I can get on the computer at any time and not be disturbing anyone in the weee hours of the night...hehehehe LOVIN it! be back after football practice tonight! (my son's, not mine...i stay off the field (or at least I TRY to.)

(Message edited by wisedove on October 11, 2006)

jbkrems

10-11-2006, 10:07 PM

mcmstaff:

If you believe God is able, then you should claim it as if its a done deal. On the other hand, you do not believe healing is provided for in the atonement, so that goes outside the box of your theology.

Further, hopefully you would agree that it is God's will to save everyone. However, you don't see that happening. Sure, some come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, but not everyone does. Likewise, the same is true for healing, some people are just not open to receiving their healing. They'll say things like what you just did, "God is able," but then they'll deny healing is provided for in the atonement, and basically "cancel" their faith.

Why don't we have a responsibility to provide medical evidence/documentation of healings? We're not doctors. We're not hospitals, in the traditional sense of the word. And personally, I cannot attest to anything, because the only deaf person I've "witnessed" being healed is in the Bible. I've personally never known a deaf person, and I've never been in a church service, or another service, where a deaf person was actually healed. So, I can only speak for myself. But, based on what I believe concerning the Bible (and not my personal experience, or lack thereof), I believe God can and does want to heal everyone who is deaf in the world, and everyone who is blind in the world, and everyone who has some other disability in the world. But some Christians, for whatever reason, do not wish to receive their healing.

Its not just about faith, mcmstaff. Its about how you exercise your faith, and its ALSO about your confession, which is part of exercising your faith. You can have all the faith in the world, but if you do not exercise it properly (e.g., your confession does not line up with your faith), then the faith is to no effect.

Robert: It is a sin to not receive one another.

Dust: I'm not trying to argue with you, but this is my response to what you wrote. First, I do not buy the pie analogy. Unless you mean "faith" to be "Christianity," the religion. When I hear the word "faith," to me that means "belief," and so forth. It does not mean one's religion, i.e. "people of different faiths."

Second, the only kind of suffering that we accept in our church is "suffering for unrighteousness' sake." That means if someone has made wrong life decisions, for instance, breaks the law (or rules or policies, etc.), then they need to suffer society's consequences for their actions. We do NOT believe that physical illness or disease is a form of suffering, because we believe pain and suffering was taken away, along with sin, in the atonement. God does not want His children in sin, in pain, in suffering, in poverty, etc.

You said that when the "power" of healing is placed on the person, then such brings condemnation. I don't think ANY church really believes that. At least we do not. For us, healing operates just like salvation, and that means the recipient must have the faith to receive what they need, be it salvation of their soul, healing of their body, deliverance from addiction, deliverance from financial debt, etc. Is that kind of responsibility placing the "power" on person? What about the authority of the believer? I think its hard to draw the line, don't you???

jbkrems

10-11-2006, 10:17 PM

And here is one more thing for everyone to consider, concerning healing...

Jesus said in Mark 16:17-18, "These signs will accompany those who believe: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drunk any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the SICK, and they WILL RECOVER." CAPS emphasis is mine.

To me, this passage says that if we are a Christian, then we have what is called "the authority of the believer," which comes from Jesus Himself, and we can exercise that authority to do any of the things that are listed here, and probably some items not listed (like protection from physical dangers, such as bullet fire, I heard a testimony about that recently). But, defintely listed here is the authority to cast out demons of someone who is demon-possessed, the authority to utilize our prayer language (for those who are charismatic), the authority to rebuke any deadly poison that we may accidentally drink (I do believe that we should also exercise wisdom, and not intentionally tempt God by snake-handling), and finally, and most importantly, the authority to pray for the sick, and see them recover from whatever kind of illness or disease they need relief from.

This Scripture applies to EVERY Christian, but it is the responsibility of us to exercise our faith and the authority we have in Christ to see these things happen. This is God's way of doing things. We cannot just sit by and just "believe," while doing nothing, as "Faith without works is dead."

(Message edited by Jbkrems on October 11, 2006)

mcmstaff78

10-11-2006, 10:19 PM

Jonathan, please, try selling that to someone else. I bought some a long time ago, found it was a fraud, and, well, you know the old saying: fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

mcmstaff78

10-11-2006, 10:23 PM

Oh, for anyone interested in a brief refutation of the whole healing in the atonement lie, see here (http://www.letusreason.org/Wf9.htm) or here (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robin.brace/healingsacrifice.htm).

jbkrems

10-11-2006, 10:28 PM

mcmstaff: The fact that you find Biblical healing to be a "fraud," demonstrates you have a lack of faith in God. By saying it is a fraud, you are blaspheming the healing power of God!

dust

10-11-2006, 11:22 PM

Krems,

I do believe we have the authority as Christians to stand on God's promises and believe for every kind of miracle, and what I meant about the condemnation is that in your extreme thinking, when healing doesn't occur you place condemnation and accusation on the person.

And, you may not realize it, but you are falling trap to something common ...Accusing the brethren to God. And the bottomline of that is this: "They aren't REAL Christians,"

Using your thinking, then no one should die. How do you explain death? Every Christian seems to die.

...Maybe you have a point and I don't have enough faith for everything. But maybe you go to far because you know that when those Amish Parents found their daughters dead from a gunmen, they suffered and the world SUFFERED WITH THEM.

I watched a special on it and I cried. I grieved for these families.
Christians are not immune from suffering...Christ wasn't immune from suffering. He overcame it and we will too, but the
completion of that is our eternal life!

Okay, there are those Christians that take suffering to an artform, but, that's the other extreme....and they talk pitiful...I know that type too....and they show oh so little faith and they speak negatively. But, God still loves them...the same way He loves someone real depressed or given into serious overeating. Sure, they could choose a more abundant life..but God still loves them.

No one here can reveal God's truth to you, but God can..and I suggest you do what I do. When I get into a heated debate, I ask "God, what in this is for me to learn." I've learned things from you, and even in this debate, I ask God, have I forgotten to believe you for this or for that.. ...I'm here to learn something.

Now, it's the Holy Spirit that actually going to reveal to me...but, it's the people here, like yourself, that gets me thinking...at least enough not be to "convinced" but to ask the Holy Spirit show me the truth in this...I want to see it....and where is my own personal weakness? Am I too judging myself? Is my faith weak?
I don't know...The HS will reveal to me.....
It wouldn't hurt for you to do that too.

We're friends, and it's okay for you to debate me.

pilgrim

10-12-2006, 12:07 AM

jbkrems,

please read 2 Corinthians 12:7, According to your beliefs Paul negative confection demonstrated that he did have a lack of faith in God.

you also said to mcmstaff78 By saying it is a fraud, you are blaspheming the healing power of God!

You are wrong, at the moment I have a bad cold and I am praying to God to heal me and God can heal me but I am not going to lie by confessing healing that I do not yet have. I the bible does not say that you need to practice positive confection to obtain healing. God can heal me if he want I have faith in God but I am going to confess that I have a cold till I do get heal otherwise I would be lying.
Disabilities and illness does not mean that you do not have faith in God.

jbkrems

10-12-2006, 12:46 AM

Dust: No, we don't place condemnation on anyone if healing does not occur. We just continue to stand with that person and believe. I think that is the Bible way.

Death is something that should take its natural course. You should live your natural life, and when it is time to go, it is time to go. There is a big difference between someone living a long life and going home to be with the Lord, and someone who dies prematurely, because of an illness. I've seen the latter, and it was only because that person decided to stop fighting the illness he had (which was ALS).

Pilgrim: We really do not know what Paul's thorn in the flesh was, but we DO know that it was not a physical illness. There are a lot of theories out there on the subject, and I suggest you read F.F. Bosworth's "Christ Our Healer," for I think his theory on that verse is best.

You do not like when you confess a healing that is yet to manifest itself. If you confess you have a cold, you are taking ownership of something you do not want --- that's not right.

mdillon

10-12-2006, 01:39 AM

Oops, I did a dilly!!
Oops, I did a dilly!!

proud of you, jon
proud of you, jon

dillyeaux
dillyeaux

mcmstaff78

10-12-2006, 02:19 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

krems: The fact that you find Biblical healing to be a "fraud," demonstrates you have a lack of faith in God. By saying it is a fraud, you are blaspheming the healing power of God!<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> I no where asserted that "biblical healing" was a fraud. I stated that what you were selling was a "fraud". Big difference. The fact that you are unable, or unwilling, to deal with what is asserted rather than twist it to fit your perception simply demonstrates, once again, the mindset that permeates the WoF perspective.

Again, I wholeheartedly affirm biblical healing, it is the WoF twisting of the scriptures that state emphatically is the fraud.

miltietoast

10-12-2006, 02:33 AM

krems come over and let's have a drink. I will say nice things at your funeral.
Mark 16 means there are few Christians in the world today.

miltietoast

10-12-2006, 02:36 AM

krems you can confess,"I'm not dead yet"

jbkrems

10-12-2006, 04:37 AM

mcmstaff: I'm not "selling" anything. But what I preach and teach is Biblical healing, and you are ACCUSING me of fraud. That's wrong. It is VERY clear you have bought into the "accuser of the brethern," thing, unfortunately. You are deceived, because you think you have the right to accuse me, your Christian brother, of fraud, when all I do is what the Scriptures say.

I have yet to see any PROOF on your account that WOF people twist or distort the Scriptures to suit what you call "our doctrine." Please give some affirmative proof that we actually twist or contort, or distort the Scriptures, and I will entertain that.

Miltie: I do not drink that much alcohol.

What do you mean "Mark 16 means there are few Christians in the world today." - ??? What do you mean by that, Mr. Miltie???

40days40years

10-12-2006, 05:37 AM

copper God Bless you, you are not talking about that Edwards book where Edwards blames victims and defends cult leaders? I don't think you are but anyway thanks for all the valuable information you have given me and Bill about Maranatha.

40days40years

10-12-2006, 06:12 AM

Anyway if that is what you are referring to I apologize but I am emotional. Did not attack you but attacked the book and that is an evil book in many ways (take responsibility for your abuse and other such gems). I don't think that is what your referring to though that would not be logical but just in case it is I apologize.

Heres a story, when my father got divorced he had to rent a room from a guy that was a union rep at the company he worked for. It was a batchelor house, football on TV all the time, the smell of cigar smoke and whiskey everywhere. The kind of place where you would hunt for Playboys, eat candy, run after the ice cream truck and mow the lawn to get a few bucks.... Anway this guy Victor had two dogs, he would sit on a large old couch watching a 25 inch RCA color television (football), drinking scotch and smoking large Garcia Vega cigars. One dog was a medium size male terrier named Cyrus and he would pee on the radiator and smell up the house. One dog was a small female terrier with short hair named Rowdy. The dog was ancient, had cataracts in its eyes but still it was a mean little dog (Victor adored that dog) Later when he was on a trip, his semi girlfriend watching the house had it put to sleep and Victor was mad but that is another story. Anyway as kids we would wrestle on the carpet in front of the television. That dog would watch the action as best as it could and when there was a clear loser to the wrestling match the dog would jump down from the couch and bite the loser on the bottom of the pile. It would make my dad laugh, on the other hand my childhood friends dog which was a large male german sheperd would always go after the victor and drag him off the loser with gentle teeth. This was a terrifying looking dog, long black fur it looked like a wolf.

(Message edited by 40days40years on October 12, 2006)

robert_unknown

10-12-2006, 07:00 AM

"Robert: It is a sin to not receive one another. "

Show me the scripture. And the context.

40days40years

10-12-2006, 07:03 AM

mcmstaff your a great guy but please stop making me back up krems all the time. All blessings are through the atonement (including healing), how can they not be? The atonement, the blood of the lamb is the money in the bank that backs up all the checks you write or don't write. If there is a miracle that takes place the atonement is involved.

jbkrems

10-12-2006, 07:13 AM

Robert:

You want to see a Scripture concerning the fact it is a sin not to receive each other???

Okie dokie, here is some Scripture for you. Please read 1 Cor. 12:14-16, which discusses spiritual gifts. I believe this passage teaches that we need to receive and recognize the gifts in one another, and not just shirk each other off, and tell each other, "I don't receive blah blah blah," from you, etc.

robert_unknown

10-12-2006, 11:46 AM

and why dont you receive adwise from us?
btw the scripture does by no means say, that it is a SIN to not receive from each other... hehe
thats what i mean, Jonathan, that some things you say sound cultish!

mcmstaff78

10-12-2006, 05:28 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

40: mcmstaff your a great guy but please stop making me back up krems all the time. All blessings are through the atonement (including healing), how can they not be? The atonement, the blood of the lamb is the money in the bank that backs up all the checks you write or don't write. If there is a miracle that takes place the atonement is involved.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Well, let's see, there is the Incarnation and the Resurrection. However, I don't buy into equating Christ's Passion with a financial account. Neither do I believe God can *ever* be obligated to do something, nor do I believe that if you just say the right words or do the right thing that God then must provide you a dividend of some kind (or withholds one because you failed to have the "right confession"). I don't believe the concept of having anykind of "account" with God upon which one can write "checks" (seems too much like the Latin concept of the supererogation of grace.

jbkrems

10-12-2006, 09:51 PM

Robert:

I do receive SOME advice from SOME of you. But some advice that is offered here is down right carnal and un-Christian.

Ok, maybe it is not a "sin" to not receive one another, BUT... it definitely is carnal behavior and un-Christian to not receive one another, and to not recognize one another's gifts. That is really what that passage is addressing, Robert. Perhaps it is not a sin, but it definitely is carnal. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

And, one more thing, Robert, I still do not get how you think what I say sounds "cultish," you have yet to explain that, please???

mcmstaff: So, you don't believe that the blood of Jesus is the guarantee on our salvation???

Also, mcmstaff, so in Genesis 6, when God established the Noahic/rainbow covenant with Noah, that God would never again destroy the world with a flood --- didn't that obligate God???

robert_unknown

10-12-2006, 10:05 PM

"I do receive SOME advice from SOME of you. But some advice that is offered here is down right carnal and un-Christian.

Ok, maybe it is not a "sin" to not receive one another, BUT... it definitely is carnal behavior and un-Christian to not receive one another, and to not recognize one another's gifts. That is really what that passage is addressing, Robert. Perhaps it is not a sin, but it definitely is carnal."

ok. but who decides what is right to receive or what not? be carefull with this things. interpretations that YOU might find good, healthy and helpfull might NOT be acceptable for others. no matter who right or wrong the interpretation might be.
and neither you nor i have the right to put our interpretations on other people.

if you interprete a scripture and think another person will be hold accountable if she/ he doesnt receive the interpretation from you as it is from God, than it is cultish. You put yourself and your revelation above others, and manipulate them with threads. thats how they deal with people in cults. as i mentioned manipulation and mind controle are based on things like this, and a christian should stay away from manipulation...

but as you agreed that it is not "sin" to not receive from you, i asume that you also agree, that God will not hold dove accountable for not taking your advice.

thank you for clearing this. everything is ok for me now... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

jbkrems

10-12-2006, 10:54 PM

Robert:

Well, first you have to weigh what is said against the Word of God. If it doesn't line up with God's Word, the Bible, then you should dismiss it. Also, I'm not addressing the content of what is said, but rather the person, and also the gifts that person has. Its not really about receiving advice from one another, because that can become more "opinion," and as you know, everyone has one.

But let us go back to what Wisedove said, which begun this discussion. Wisedove said, "it feels a bit like condemnation, and knowing that condemnation is not of the Lord, what you are sharing must not be from Him." So, I then inferrred, and rightly so, that Wisedove chose not to receive what I was trying to share, as a gift. However, looking more closely at Dove's words, "it feels like condemnation... and therefore must not be from God," this is totally NOT a reason for any of us to NOT receive what we share with one another here.

If someone feels like condemnation, that does not mean it IS condemnation. Dove is right in that condemnation is NOT from the Lord, but just because something feels like condemnation, does not mean it IS condemnation. Feelings can LIE. Feelings can DECEIVE. This is why we need to use discernment, to determine the motives of who we're speaking with, and to determine whether it actually is condemnation, and it was not intended as such here.

Now, lets discuss this other issue. I don't believe that if I share a certain interpretation of Scripture, and the other person does not receive it, then God holds them necessarily accountable. I do believe that if I share with someone a prophecy, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, word of encouragement, etc., and the person chooses not to receive it, THEN, the person is held accountable by God, and God alone.

The reason why I said that to Dove is because I was not just giving her advice, I was giving Dove a word of encouragement on how to proceed in the situation Dove described. It was not mere advice. It was a word out of my spirit, from the Lord. If she chooses not to receive that, THEN God holds her accountable, and it is between Him and Dove.

I do not put myself or my revelation above others. That is prideful and THAT is sin. I do not manipulate here, either. If you think I manipulate, then please show me where I have engaged in that behavior. I agree that Christians should stay away from manipulation (I've been manipulated myself, sometimes intentionally, and sometimes unintentionally, and I know very well it is wrong).

All of the above in mind, it is not a "sin" to not receive advice from one another --- advice is just like opinion, if it is mere advice. But, if it is a word from the Lord, a word of encouragement, etc., as I described above, then we need to at the very least pray about it, and ask God whether it applies to our lives, and if so, HOW to apply it. We need to let God instruct us, etc. in these matters.

Finally, I want to reiterate that feelings can lie and deceive us, and that we should not be led by them. Dove was being led by her feelings in this instance, and that is why I said God would hold her accountable for not receiving what I said, which was from my spirit (and from the Lord).

wisedove

10-12-2006, 11:24 PM

krems:No, I think you're deceived. If you're saying I am sounding "condemning," I'm not condemning you at all. However, you still choose to NOT receive what I said. That's your choice, but you'll be held accountable for it.

God does know your heart, and your level of faith. However, God wants to help you enlargen your faith in Him, and His ability to heal, and deliver, both you, and your children.

Also, if you cannot picture your child healed and whole in Jesus name, then that says something about your faith life. You should see her healed and whole, in Jesus name.

I want to re-address this and another new issue recently brought up, sense I am back in this discussion again.

Krems, I thank you that you are trying to offer a gift to me in the form of an encouraging word.

There were years in the beginning when i truly harbored bitterness and resentment towards many people for the way things turned out. God HAS done a tremendous healing in my life in those areas. He has given me HIS joy in the midst of pure hell at times. I find that when I praise Him, joy shows up. When I worship HIM, Joy shows up. When I wallow in self-pity, depression rules.

I DO see my child healed. She is a blessing, even if dealing with the situation is irritating. I can't see her any other way than the way she is..She's unique and special, just as each one of us is unique and special. We are fearfully and wonderfully made, flaws, faults, sins, and all.

There are SPECIFIC areas of my child's life that I am believing God to turn around...These areas would take a supernatural MIRACLE of God, and I know He is able to do them. I am just waiting this out. In the meantime, you have to come to a place of acceptance. I did that a few years back. I don't think this means that I've accepted this lot in life and things will never be different. NO. That's false. It is called BEING CONTENT IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES. THAT'S THE KIND OF ACCEPTANCE I SPEAK OF. IT IS NOT DISBELIEF, DECEPTION, OR LACK OF FAITH. I pray your faith is never shattered and tested to the extreme that mine has been. God is faithful even when we aren't. His love for us is soooo perfect. He has done a miracle in me, softening my heart, keeping me humble, and I thank God He is not finished with me yet.

I need to learn how to BE ANGRY and sin not. Jesus was very angry in the temple, flipping a table over and things apparantly flew everywhere, probably landing on top of those around the table. Yet, He did not sin. Anger is o.k. sinning in our anger is the thing we need deliverance and guidance to overcome.

Believe me. I am a work in progress. I know who I am in Christ. That is encouragement enough at times. All the time.
thanks again.
God Bless you and keep you, and make His face shine upon you, and give you peace.

40days40years

10-12-2006, 11:34 PM

mcmstaff, God is not a Coke Machine so I definantly agree with that much of what your saying but the old testament believers who came before Christ their sins are dealt with by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus purchased the whole field. You can't approach the mercy seat without the sprinkling of blood and that is where all the blessings are going to be coming from. As far as positive confession? I don't take it to the extreme WOF people do because I think it can be to easisly ritualized (iconized). God does what he wants but when Joshua and Caleb entered into the promised land they had a confession pleasing to the Lord the others did'nt.

jbkrems

10-13-2006, 04:52 AM

Wisedove: I need to address some issues you raise in your latest post.

First, you said, "I DO see my child healed. She is a blessing, even if dealing with the situation is irritating. I can't see her any other way than the way she is..She's unique and special, just as each one of us is unique and special. We are fearfully and wonderfully made, flaws, faults, sins, and all." I don't understand you, because you sound like you contradict yourself here. You say you see you child healed, but then you say you cannot see her in any way, but how she is. Well, either you see her healed, or you see her as she is now, you cannot see her both (unless you are double-minded, according to James 2).

The other issue in this paragraph that you raise deals with the last comment, "fearfully and wonderfully made, flaws, faults, sins, and all." I disagree with the theology of this comment. God did not make your daughter, or anyone else with the kinds of flaws, faults, sins, and so forth. You cannot take these negative qualities and say they are the work of God --- rather, I'd say they are the work of the devil, and I'd encourage you to change your thinking in this regard.

You also do NOT have to come to a place of acceptance. God requires us to have tenacious faith, and not give up. You cannot just accept that "Oh well, my daughter is just going to be this way." That's not real faith. That's not true faith.

robert_unknown

10-13-2006, 06:59 AM

Jonathan, the bible also says something VERY wise about how to express faith:

---------
Romans 14

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin."

---------

the "boasting faith" thing (where people "proof" each other by their "bold proclamations" how much faith they have) is something i doubt beeing from God!

So accept dove. She is perhaps stronger in her faith then you are. only because you CONFESS faith does not mean that you HAVE strong faith. faith gets proofen in tribulations. Where are your tribulations, Jonathan? Where are the things you had to overcome? Tell me about your tribulations and let me see your charakter, then i can judge your faith.

judging a man or a woman after what he/she says is worth nothing. I have seen this hundret times. the "big" and "important" guys behind the pulpit, who boast about their faith... dont become one like them!

robert_unknown

10-13-2006, 07:03 AM

jbkrems

10-13-2006, 07:21 AM

Robert:

I think you double posted. Oh well...

It is important to note that Romans 14 deals with matters of conscience. I agree with you that we should not boast in our faith, but rather boast in God (that is what 1 Cor. 1:24-31 is about).

Regarding accepting Dove, I do accept her, and so does God. But neither God, nor I, desire her to stay the way she is. Like the youth pastor at my church says, "Come as you are, but don't stay that way." God wants us to change, and mature, and develop in our faith; He wants our faith to be enlargened and grow bigger.

So far as my own personal tribulations, the most recent was the bar exam. Now I am believing for a job. God's already provided for it --- but it has not manifested yet.

And I have not judged Dove. I've encouraged her, admonished her, warned her, exhorted her, all of which are Biblical/scriptural things to do. And I do NOT boast about my faith, either. I don't know where you get idea from.

pilgrim

10-13-2006, 12:25 PM

Robert_unknown you wrote, So accept dove. She is perhaps stronger in her faith then you are. only because you CONFESS faith does not mean that you HAVE strong faith

I fully agree with you Robert, confesing that you are not ill when you are ill or confesing that you or your children do not have a disability when you have one in not faith and it is a lie. Liars will not enter the kingdon of heaven.

I believe that God can heal, by the way I am getting better from my cold, but I accept the situation how it is i.e if I am ill I try to accept my situation till I get better.

For example if someone have a child who is deaf. I would advice the parents to learn sign language and to teach the child sign language etc. to help that child to leave a life as normal as possible with the disability. Maybe God would use that child to preach the gospel to deaf's people. I would also pray for the child, God can help the child to recover the hearing but not everyone does get healed. I would try to help the parents to try to make the most of the situation. I believe that the words in the bible by his stripes we were healed means that we were healed spiritually.
The bible does not guarantee that Christians will never be ill or disable.

pilgrim

10-13-2006, 12:55 PM

I BELIEVE THAT OUR FAITH SHOULD BE IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE AND NOT IN OUR POSITIVE CONFESSIONS. GOD CAN HEAL AND WE DO NOT NEED TO PRETEND THAT WE DO NOT HAVE AN ILLNESS OR DISABILITY TO ENABLE GOD TO WORK.

IF WE FEEL THAT WE NEED TO CONFESS THAT WE ARE HEALED WHEN WE ARE NOT ARE WE HAVING FAITH IN THE POWER OF POSSITIVE CONFESSION ABOVE OUR FAITH IN THE POWER OF GOD ALONE?

JESUS CAME TO HEAL THE SICK AND NOT PEOPLE WHO PRETENDED THAT THEY WERE ALREADY HEALED. JESUS DID NOT ASK THE SICK TO CONFESS THAT THEY WERE HEALED TO RECIEVE HEALING.

FAITH IN POSITIVE CONFESSION IS SUPERTITION.

j2theperson

10-13-2006, 01:12 PM

Well said, Pilgrim.

vanguard

10-13-2006, 02:38 PM

One of the EN pastor used to steal from the church and everytime the Administrator tried to stop him , he always say "SHUT UP ! I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR ANYTHING NEGATIVE !"

No, the administrator never reported it, because he is pretty much well paid.

ginger1

wisedove

10-13-2006, 02:40 PM

good morning, all.
thanks.

just waking up.

krems, after I posted my above post, I knew somehow that you would think I was coming across as doubleminded or something. I thought perhaps what I said would sound a bit contradicting. But, I mean what i said, and will try to clarify, yet once again, not to prove any thing to you, but perhaps there is someone else out there reading who can use the encouragement.

My child has mild disabilities. She functions. she walks, talks, gets around on her own, even though it's a bit slower (o.k., ALOT slower) than us. I can learn to slow down sometimes myself. I push her very hard to keep up with me. that's not always fair. I push her very hard to try her best. I treat her hard sometimes because I know of her capabilities. It makes my husband mad many times because I have been the hard one. He doesn't get it that I am just wanting to treat her like a typical child.

Here's what I meant by saying I don't see her any other way. I guess that isn't completely true. I DO see her another way, and have never babied or pitied her condition. My faith has brought HER a LONG way. Like I said, things could have been much worse. MUCH. The things that I want to see miraculously healed, and AM believing GOD to do this, are: 1. Her eyes to straighten, and her vision to be restored in her right eye. she is nearly blind in that eye.

2. Her appetite and growth to dramatically increase, where she can make up slow growth.

Still beleiving. still Standing. Can you stand with me? In the meantime, I have learned to be content in all things. Here's where my acceptance comes in. There came a time where I said "enough is enough with all of the diagnostic tests, the poking, prodding, etc. trying to figure out what's going on with her." ENOUGH. This is how things are, and these are the things I have to deal with, so I am dealing. Period. still standing, trusting God to do a miracle, praying over both of them every night, while dealing with my challenges.

matt_hatter

10-13-2006, 03:09 PM

"you would think I was coming across as doubleminded or something."

Dove, your post was beautiful. It is the very thing we tell the folks we work with, the days of "hire the poor handicapped" are over: you have the right to be hired, and the right to be fired.

It is what krems fails to understand: not doubleminded, but a spiritual paradox. Jesus spoke of them frequently. Want to save your life? Lose it. The natural mind cannot understand this, or what you posted, as the natural mind already has the response based on a tightly wrapped box of religious dogma.

matt_hatter

10-13-2006, 03:43 PM

In 1989, 30-year-old Jan Turner was her church's music minister. She
also taught music and fifth grade at a Christian school and was a single
mom raising two adopted boys, ages four and ten.

Then pneumococcal pneumonia invaded Jan's body. Within hours she slipped
into a coma and for two weeks hovered between life and death. Due to
lack of circulation, her limbs were amputated. Jan had to learn how to
walk, eat, dress, drive, and cook using prosthetics.

Throughout her ordeal, Jan clung to Romans 8:28-39. She reminded herself
nothing could separate her from God's love, and in him, she was more
than a conqueror.

Today, Jan, 44, is an ordained minister, part-time radio announcer, and
substitute teacher at a local high school. When she shares her
testimony, she tells listeners, "Gaze at the promises, glance at the
problems. God will always see us through."

Instead of focusing on some ridiculous doctrine that would believe God to grow new limbs, Jan moved on with her life. Being separated from God's love trumped being separated from her limbs. Think on these things, Krems.

mcmstaff78

10-13-2006, 03:46 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

matt: It is what krems fails to understand: not doubleminded, but a spiritual paradox.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Yeah, the technical term is antinomy, two things that seem mutually exclusive. WoF "theology" puts God in a box, attempting to apply laws of reason and logic (though often they are simply fallacies - I remember listening to Hagin, even when I agreed with the principle, thinking of his argument "that just doesn't follow" - he liked to use an inverse argument, if a THEN not b, where b is defined as the opposite of a. Well, this doesn't necessarily follow, logically speaking). God is not bound by our logic and reasoning. He is utterly transcendent in His essence and condescended to become human. Because of this, it is not doubleminded to believe both for God to heal someone and to pray "if it be Thy will".

forword

10-13-2006, 04:01 PM

Pilgram, great post. I agree 100%

Standing with you Dove

wisedove

10-13-2006, 04:39 PM

Matt and forward,
thanks...Matt, I love the example you gave and the verses in Romans. Thanks. I can still cling to every encouraging word out there. At times, I felt I was only clinging to Jesus' feet or His garments, like the woman with the issue of blood.

He is so faithful. He is so loving. He is all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent, and every other name I can't think of that describes who He is. In the midst of disappointments, challenges, unmet expectations, He is the same. His love never fails. Nothing separates us from His love. Nothing. Not our doubt. Not our unbelief. Not our little tiny miniscule amount of faith. I have faith as least as big as a mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds. At least as big as that. That is all that is requested of the Lord.

jbkrems

10-13-2006, 09:51 PM

Wisedove:

True faith does not both see your daughter healed and whole, AND at the same time, accept things just the way they are. Yes, we need to deal with circumstances and minister, or whatever, but that does not mean we accept the circumstances as they are.

Further, by saying your child "has mild disabilities," you are making your child take ownership of the conditions, and that's not right. True faith does not take ownership of conditions, as you acscribe to your daughter.

Matt: It is double-minded to see someone in the future, or to even see yourself in the future, in two different, contradictory ways, e.g. both healed and not healed at the same time.

What do you think double-minded means, if you think my interpretation of the concept is inaccurate or incorrect???

mcmstaff: It is ALWAYS God's will to heal. How dare you suggest it is NOT God's will to heal someone.

Forword: So, you agree with Pilgrim that when the Bible says "By His stripes, we are healed," that it is only spiritual healing, and not physical healing???

pilgrim

10-13-2006, 11:12 PM

jbkrems,

You wrote: It is ALWAYS God's will to heal. How dare you suggest it is NOT God's will to heal someone.

One of my best friends is on a wheelchair because she broke her back. She is a Christian full of faith in Christ. She is always encouraging me to have faith in Christ.
She knows that God can heal her but God have chosen not to heal her yet. You see phisical healing is no a guarantee.
Please don't tell me that she doesn't have enought faith because I feel certain in my heart that she does have enough faith. God have chosen no to heal her yet for a purpose may be that purpose is to help to expose the WoF false doctrines.

freedom43

10-13-2006, 11:29 PM

pilgrim -- I have a friend in a similar situation. She is an amazing woman and Christian, spirit-filled, full of faith and the love of God and fruits of the Holy Sprirt. She just turned 50 a few years ago and has been believing God for healing/a miracle since she broke her neck at age 18 -- what is that over 32 years? Years ago, she made the trek to every crusade that the WOF types held. She's still in the chair. I guess according to krems, she just doesn't have enough faith. I personally think that's a crock and a cop out. They refuse to admit their doctrine is faulty because it is so very convenient to always blame it on the person's lack of faith or lack of confession. I'm with mcmstaff78 -- if it works and is for believers' today -- show me the proof. There is no reason there shouldn't be some documented cases of true miracles out there. No reason whatsoever.

mcmstaff78

10-14-2006, 12:07 AM

Oh goodness, Jonathan, get off your high horse. I could just as easily ask "how dare YOU think you speak for God and presume to know His will for everyone?" How *dare you* perpetuate lies and false teachings in His name? How *dare you* engage in the spiritually abusive tactic of implying that when people aren't healed it is because of their faith.

C'mon Jonathan, *if* it is God's will to heal everyone just like it is God's will to save everyone, then the *only* reason anyone is not healed is because they don't exercise faith just like it is the only reason they wouldn't be saved.

I could also write, how dare you write to me and others as if you had some kind of authority or were our elders. Your presumptuousness apparently knows no bounds.May God truly have mercy on you.

jbkrems

10-14-2006, 05:51 AM

Pilgrim: Your friend is mistaken. God does not choose to not heal anyone. Now, we may decide, for whatever reason, that God will not heal us, and God honors our faith (so if we do not believe God will heal us, we judge ourselves, and God acts or does not act accordingly). Faith is an active fight, and if you are not believing God yourself for your own healing, then God cannot work with that.

Its not that your friend lacks faith, but for whatever reason, your friend has decided that "God will not heal me." That kind of confession will produce a likewise result. It is not a lack of faith, but simply how your friend has judged herself.

But do not say, "God chose to NOT heal her." No, God does not make that kind of determination.

Freedom: No, its not lack of faith. Sometimes it IS that we judge ourselves that we do not deserve to be healed. Sometimes we have an idea that God does NOT want to heal us, or God will NOT heal us, and neither is so. God will heal anyone that comes to him and asks for it. Period. God does not say, "I will not heal so-and-so."

mcmstaff: Do you believe it is God's will that everyone should be saved (born again, redeemed, etc.) - ???

If the answer is yes, then its a similar concept as regards to healing, or receiving anything else from God.

The reason why some people do not get healed is the same reason why some people do not get saved. They either lack faith (this DOES happen, sometimes, but not always), they give up the fight of faith (that is not lacking faith, per se, but it is a way of stopping believing), OR... they judge themselves that God will not heal them, for whatever reason (they don't deserve it, its not God's will, blah blah blah). Those are the 3 ways people fail to receive, and they work both for salvation, and for healing.

And I am sorry if I come across as arrogant. I do not mean to do so. But sometimes I read things here that doctrinally tick me off, because its just wrong doctrine.

pilgrim

10-14-2006, 07:42 AM

jbkrems,

You wrote, The reason why some people do not get healed is the same reason why some people do not get saved. They either lack faith (this DOES happen, sometimes, but not always), they give up the fight of faith (that is not lacking faith, per se, but it is a way of stopping believing), OR... they judge themselves that God will not heal them, for whatever reason (they don't deserve it, its not God's will, blah blah blah). Those are the 3 ways people fail to receive, and they work both for salvation, and for healing.

WHERE CAN YOU FIND IN THE BIBLE THAT PHYSICAL HEALING IS A GUARANTEE AND THAT PEOPLE DO NOT RECEIVE PHYSICAL HEALING FOR LACK OF POSITIVE CONFESSION(SUPERTITION)OR BECAUSE THEY HAVE PRAYED TO GOD FOR HEALING WITH FAITH,LIKE MY FRIEND ON THE WHEELCHAIR, AND BECAUSE THEY DID NOT RECIEVED PHYSICAL HEALING YET THEY ACCEPTED THAT IT IS NOT GOD'WILL TO BE HEALED AT PRESENT ALTHOUGH THEY ARE OPEN TO THE POSSIBILITY THAT GOD MAY OR MAY NOT CHOSE TO HEAL THEN AT ANY TIME?

PHYSICAL HEALING IS NOT A GUARANTEE IN THIS LIFE.

jbkrems

10-14-2006, 08:30 AM

Pilgrim: Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said physical healing is a "guarantee." Salvation is not a "guarantee," either. Faith is required for both. You must have faith, and you can lose your salvation through unbelief, if you come out denying Jesus Christ is your Savior and Lord (I'm Arminian, and do NOT believe in eternal security, or "once saved, always saved.") Please do not put words in my mouth.

Let me re-phrase this discussion. If one has faith and believes, THEN and only then can physical healing manifest. The key issue is not can God heal, but WILL God heal. The answer to "Will God heal someone," can only be answered "Yes," IF the person believes and has faith. Hebrews 11:6 states, "Without faith it is impossible to please God." Earlier, Heb. 11:1 says, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

If you interpret "assurance" as "guarantee," then, "Faith is the guarantee of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." I am uncertain if this interpretation is correct. It could be, because one's faith is the ONLY guarantee, IMHO, that one can remain saved. But I am Arminian. Some here might be Calvinists...

Let me separate some of your other questions. You asked where in the Bible people do not receive physical healing for lack of positive confession, which you believe is superstition. I'm not sure how to respond. Again, you've put words in my mouth, this time, "positive confession," a phrase I NEVER used here. So, I cannot really respond to that any further.

Lastly, Pilgrim, I want to examine the situation with your friend in the wheelchair. Your friend did the following:
(1) Prayed to God for healing with faith.
(2) Physical healing did not manifest right away, immediately, or instantaneously.
(3) Therefore, concluded that because there was no immediate physical manifestion, she accepted it is not God's will to be healed, "although they are open to the possibility God may or may not choose to heal" later. That's my paraphrase of what went on with your friend. Please correct me if that paraphrase is inaccurate. #1 above is good and right. That is showing faith, praying to God for healing with faith, etc. Unfortunately, where your friend discontinued her faith is when because there was no immediate result, then she concluded its not God's will for healing in this situation, and that God "may or may not" heal later. This line of thought is NOT Biblical, for several reasons.

One reason is because the "may or may not" idea is pure double-mindedness. Your friend must see herself healed and out of the wheelchair, rather than in her current state. Otherwise, she is not in faith (not that she lacks faith, but is not in faith). Further, just because you do not receive instant results, does not mean it is NOT God's will. For many years I've been praying for my parents to receive Christ as Lord and Savior, and the same for my brother. But they are still NOT saved. Using your friend's reasoning, I should say, "Its not God's will for my parents to be saved." That is VERY unbiblical, for the Bible clearly states its God's will for all to be saved. Thus, you cannot give up and accept its not God's will when you do not see immediate results. Rather, you must keep confessing your healing, keep believing "by His stripes, I am healed," keep at it with TENACITY, so that one day your healing will manifest. True faith does not just give up and accept the status quo.

Alright, I think that's how I describe things.
Any questions, Pilgrim, now that I have clarified my position, and explained what I believe???

robert_unknown

10-14-2006, 10:58 AM

the assumption, that healing depends solely on the faith of the involved persons, is wrong and dangerous. we shall have faith and we shall pray - yes. but it is GOD who does the healing.

we cannot manipulate God to heal. Thats whitchcraft. Doesnt work!

mcmstaff78

10-14-2006, 01:53 PM

Jonathan, yes, I believe it is God's will that everyone be saved. The scriptures specifically say it is. And, if one meets the conditions set in the scriptures, one *shall* be saved.

However, there is no similar expression of God's will for physical healing in the scriptures. Additionally, unless one holds to a Christian Science type of philosophy whereby symptoms of sickness are considered illusory or deceptions and one really *is* healed, then there is no evidence that everyone who exercises faith in healing is healed. In fact, there is incontrovertable evidence that *not* everyone who exercises faith to be healed is healed. The only way faith preachers get around this is to say that those not healed did not properly exercise their faith. This is either explicit or implicit in the teaching - it cannot logically be otherwise - and this is basically demonstrated by your assertion of the "three" reasons why people aren't healed. They really are only one reason, lack of faith. Your "rephrasing" is meaningless - again, a distinction without a difference. A person is not healed because they have not properly exercised their faith. This must be true of Charles Parham (the father of modern "pentecostalism", was the first propent of "healing in the atonement". He was often sick, at least one of his children died early and so many of his followers, and worse, their childre, died of treatable illnesses that the community in which he was "ministering" drove him out).

Then there are the following...(see the next message)

wisedove

10-14-2006, 01:58 PM

Heb. 11:1 says, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
as·sur·ance (plural as·sur·ances)

noun
1. pledge or promise
2. confidence
3. certainty
4. making something certain
5. U.K. insurance against certainty

hope

hope [h&#333;p]
transitive and intransitive verb (past and past participle hoped, present participle hop·ing, 3rd person present singular hopes)
want or expect something: to have a wish to get or do something or for something to happen or be true, especially something that seems possible or likely

noun (plural hopes)
1. confident desire: a feeling that something desirable is likely to happen
The research offers hope to sufferers.

2. likelihood of success: a chance that something desirable will happen or be possible
There's not much hope that things will improve.

3. wish or desire: something that somebody wants to have or do or wants to happen or be true
My hope is that she will change her mind.

4. source of success: somebody or something that seems likely to bring success or relief
We have to do this, it's our only hope.

5. trust: a feeling of trust (archaic)

[ Old English hopian (verb), hopa (noun), origin ?]

-hop·er, noun

Microsoft® Encarta® 2007. © 1993-2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

mcmstaff78

10-14-2006, 02:00 PM

I've decided to start a new thread to continue my response to Jonathan regarding "healing in the atonement" as taught by WoF.

dust

10-14-2006, 02:04 PM

MCM
There must be something in the WOF water. You two are at such opposite ends of the debate but so similar in your endurancehttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

mcmstaff78

10-14-2006, 02:24 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

dust: There must be something in the WOF water. You two are at such opposite ends of the debate but so similar in your endurance.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Well, I truly believe this is a demonic doctrine (see the thread I started). I have lived through and experienced first hand the psychological trauma this doctrine causes, seen it in my own daughter and in many friends; I've read so many testimonies of people turned off to Christianity as a whole because they though WoF presented an accurate portrait of the faith and of Christ; that when I see it so vociferously defended by someone who has experienced so little of life, who has no perspective, and then presumes to admonish those of us who've "been there and done that and wrote a book about it" - well, for both his sake and those who might be sucked in by the doctrine, I have to try to present a counter to it. Trust me, I don't want to. I wish I could just ignore it - but I can't. Again, I just pray that God will illumine with the light of awareness all those caught up in pernicious heresies!

pilgrim

10-14-2006, 04:19 PM

jbkrems,

You wrote, And I am sorry if I come across as arrogant. I do not mean to do so. But sometimes I read things here that doctrinally tick me off, because its just wrong doctrines.

From my friend who is on the wheelchair. I am in her house at the moment.

She said that you are not arrogant at all but you are just ignorant. She also said that we have no room for arrogance in the word of God. We only need to be humble and open minded to reach fulness of understanding of his work by his grace. She also says that the word of God is so sweet specially when he opens our minds to understand it as it is.

Where is room for Thy Will be done if we could order God to do things all the time. She believes that God can and will heal her when the time is right for his glory. She has been on a wheelchair for 12 years now and she has always believed that God can heal her. Does it matter time God choses to heal someone?

wisedove

10-14-2006, 04:25 PM

just saw joni-erickson last week on tbn. she's been in a wheelchair for 38 years now after her accident. She has been a blessing to the Body of Christ.

dust

10-14-2006, 04:29 PM

Pilgrim, well said.

I think there is a way to see GOD GLORIFIED often by OUR response than what He does. I mean this: Last week on Extreme Home Makeover, they chose a family from the Nashville area to redo their home. The young mother protected her two children in our terrible tornado this year and suffered a broken back (kids are fine) and is on a wheelchair. They lost EVERYTHING, house destroyed, her grandmother's china broken.

This TV show rebuilt her house even with a chair lift at the pool, and made a table from the broken china. The tears were flowing everywhere watching this show. I remember that tornado...my husband was almost caught in it driving. Well, GOD WAS GLORIFIED by the RESPONSE of her attitude, her husband's love, the community that came to help her rebuild that house, and for everyone giving money, giving a hand giving love. What could have destroyed a family has brought much love and MUCH GLORY to GOD!

Of course God was in this all the way, but I'm just saying God was glorified by the response of the people. And much blessing has come from this.

dust

10-14-2006, 04:39 PM

MCM,
I get it...and this is good...perhaps you did live through this to be here to bring this side of the story. My experiences in EN were nothing like Krems and nothing like what you lived through. This may have been an area in EN (at Bethel) where it was more balanced....actually, I think they could have focused MORE on healing...but the leadership is afraid of the spiritual gifts and afraid of getting wierd....maybe they had some of your experiences and when this happens people tend to throw the baby out with the bath water. I admire the tenacity of both of you, and MCM, I see where you're coming from, totally.

blueboy96

10-14-2006, 05:13 PM

If you guys haven't had a chance to look at Becky's Web site, check it out:

http://www.kidsinministry.com

This woman is HARDCORE Latter Rain. To be fair, the setup doesn't seem nearly as authoritarian as EN ... but it only makes my heart break for those poor kids even more. I had wondered whether I was being too hard on her (I initially made postings on dKos calling her a borderline fascist). But after seeing this ...

blueboy96

10-14-2006, 05:27 PM

I saw this film last Sunday--and I came away thinking the same thing that I thought about Waymaker and KPIC. Becky Fischer had a tremendous opportunity on her hands--and fumbled it away.

ONe of the things that has always befuddled me to this day about Waymaker is that when I was at Carolina, it was the only even remotely integrated Christian group there. They had a chance to break away completely from their Maranatha roots and be a real force for good in Chapel Hill. But they didn't--and I'm beginning to think they couldn't.

It's almost the same deal with Fischer and Co. While her ministry's mission couldn't be loftier on paper, all she's doing is indoctrinating these poor kids in Kingdom Now claptrap. Nothing about getting out of your comfort zone to reach out to people who are really hurting--all it seems to be about with her is getting these kids to put more notches in their Bibles.

Sad, sad, sad.

jbkrems

10-14-2006, 09:53 PM

Robert: Your sentences does not make sense. You seem to equate faith with manipulating God. Come on, you know faith is not manipulating God.

mcmstaff: There are plenty of Scriptures that state that Jesus came to heal the sick. Matt. 8:16-17, describing Jesus, states, "When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill. This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: 'He Himself took our infirmities and carried away our diseases.'" This is a quote from Isaiah 53:4. Jesus does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Jesus came to take away our infirmities and diseases, just as much as our sins. This is part of the believer's inheritance, and part of the atonement. I'll address more arguments in the "healing in the atonement" thread that was recently established.

However, here I will address the Christian Science argument. First, Christian Science is a FALSE religion, and it is neither "Christian," nor "science." Further, as a WOF person, we (at least in my church) do not believe that symptoms are illusory, and the like. However, if someone has received their healing, the healing may not yet manifest itself. My pastor teaches, and I agree with him, that you can be healed in the realm of the spirit, but the physical manifestation occurs later. Paul wrote, to explain this, in 1 Cor. 1:28, "God has chosen... the things that are not (physical healing), so that He may mullify the things that are (sickness and disease)." Of course, you probably have a different understanding of this passage.

I'll pick this discussion up in your new thread, but that is a start. My next post will be directed towards the more recent thoughts expressed by others.

jbkrems

10-14-2006, 09:59 PM

Pilgrim: Much of what your friend said is true and good and right.

You asked does it matter when God chooses to heal. God has already provided the healing, it is OUR choice whether to receive it. It is not a matter of time, but it is a matter of our receiving what God already has done.

mcmstaff78

10-15-2006, 12:28 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

JBK: Of course, you probably have a different understanding of this passage.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Yeah, as does most of the rest of Christendom, and has for 2000 years. Of course, your particular interpretation has absolutely no basis in the text itself.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. (1Co 1:18-29)

Jonathan, this is a perfect example of WoF twisting and distorting scriptures. The text you quote reads, in context, is dealing with preaching and the crucifixion. It addresses Jews seeking a sign (hmmm, this seems a bit like those who go about seeking (and proclaiming) signs & wonders) and Greeks who sought a philosophical argument. It has, let me repeat, absolutely nothing to do with healing.

As for the passage in Matthew, yes, in this place the Apostle applies the Isaiah prophecy, which has to do with sin, to our Lord healing the sick. However, notice verse 16 carefully, When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word. Their sicknesses were caused by sin and by devils. Thus, when the devils were cast out, when the sin dealt with, the illnesses were healed. Jesus healed to show that He could forgive, that He was God and that forgiveness was within His authority, note Matthew 9:6, But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

However, this is the one verse that is used to substantiate healing in the Atonement. I'd always learned that one doesn't build a doctrine on one verse.

jbkrems

10-15-2006, 02:07 AM

mcmstaff:

I will respond to you here, and then go to the other thread (about healing in the atonement), and discuss more there.

You preach a lot more experience than you do the actual Scriptures. I see you say a lot of negative things, but you do not provide where in the Scriptures healing is not for today, etc.

No, I do not think what we believe concerning the latter portion of 1 Cor. 1 (verses 22-31), is twisting or distorting the Word of God. The text that you cited (I began later than you did), does begin with preaching and the crucifixion, but goes on and goes further than that. It does address Jews seeking a sign, and Greeks wanting a philosophy...

This is what I believe these Scriptures teach. I am taking most of this from my pastor's sermon notes from this past Wednesday evening service. My pastor said that the fact that these Jews required a sign, in order to believe, demonstrated they had NO faith at all. They wanted a demonstration of God's power so much that they could not recognize God working in their midst.

This is different than the purpose of signs and wonders today.

Now, you say that 1 Cor. 1 has absolutely nothing to do with healing. Well, that's not entirely true. It does have to do with healing, just as much as it deals with salvation. Please do not say it has nothing to do with salvation. Rather, while it does not prima facie deal with healing, it does deal with faith, and faith is required for healing.

Next, you address Matthew 8. I would not say that sickness is caused by sin, but it is caused by demonic oppression. However, as I look at the text, I see that some people had clear demonic oppression (in need of what we would call deliverance ministry), and others had illnesses needing healing. Jesus performed both. Jesus healed here not to show forgiveness was within his authority, but to show healing was within his authority (including physical healing, as demonstrated here).

However, the "healing in the atonement" doctrine is NOT based on this verse alone, and for more, I will refer you to the other thread.

miltietoast

10-15-2006, 01:45 PM

Miltie: I do not drink that much alcohol.

What do you mean "Mark 16 means there are few Christians in the world today." - ??? What do you mean by that, Mr. Miltie???

Krems,I seriously worry for you.Your inability to follow a conversation,miss the main point, and respond to a point that was not mentioned,qualifies you to use your law degree at the local courthouse doing title searches.

The drink I was offering you was poison not alcohol. Because you believe youcould drink poison. I have faith that I would be at your funeral.

Regarding Mark 16--- I do not see these signs following believers in America--therefore there are very few believers in this country.(I believe they tried to teach you this kind of reasoning in school)
To try and be clear for only you krems---you quoted this verse. I simply make the easy observation that these signs rarely happen in this country,therefore there are few believers.

These signs do not follow anyone in this country including you.
So I repeat come on over for some Jim Jones kool-aid and I will come to your funeral.

jbkrems

10-15-2006, 02:24 PM

Miltie:

Funny you should mention Mark 16. I just cited it in another thread.

Let me respond to you with a few comments.

First, while I "can/could" drink deadly poison, the Bible also urges us to exercise wisdom. Thus, we are not to TEMPT God by drinking poison deliberately. But if we drink something, or eat something, by accident, that would seek to harm us, we can stand on Mark 16, along with other Scriptures, and be delivered from the effects of any poison that might enter our system. I've heard testimonies of this happening in China and other countries where believers are FORCED (because of persecution) to drink deadly poison, and they withstand the forces of darkness in that regard.

Regarding Mark 16, I agree with you, unfortunately, that these signs do NOT follow believers so much in America. But that does not mean there are few Christians in America. Unfortunately, many Christian believers in America do not desire to see signs and wonders follow the preaching of the Word of God. They do not desire to be USED by God in the signs and wonders ministry, praying for the sick, raising the dead, and so forth. It REALLY is a SAD statement, Miltie. However, I pray that God would change men's hearts, and so that we would ALL as Christians desire to see the miraculous in our lives --- and that we ALL would have the desire to, for example, pray for the sick and see them recover.

And, regarding my own personal life, I am part of a church where we DO believe signs follow the preaching of the word, and signgs follow the believer --- and we see healings in our church, we see the sick recover. We REALLY REALLY do.

miltietoast

10-15-2006, 02:52 PM

I was going to accidently poison you on purpose then attend your funeral. What if you did't know you had been poisoned and didn't stand on mark 16? Would you fall into your grave?
Many Christians are forced to drink poison and they die. Christians are being put to death by the thousands around the world. I do not think they are listening to WOFers.
Sorry krems about they REALLY REALLY do.I think the consensus on this board is that we have ernestly tried to follow the teachings of WOFers for 20-30 years,our conclusion from personal experience and observation is that it is a crock. What I REALLY REALLY see is a lot of sick people walking in their healing sick or just getting better naturally.More cancer goes into remission all by itself than have ever been healed (my personal calculations)

miltietoast

10-15-2006, 03:04 PM

by the way krems-- I almost detected a real person behind your last post. keep trying

mcmstaff78

10-15-2006, 08:02 PM

Jonathan, is it that you refuse to read the relevant scripture passage or you just refuse to give up your Pastor's twisted interpretation despite the fact the passage itself provides no basis for it. I post the scriptures when I talk of them. You simply post your interpretation. At least cite the actual passage that you say speaks about healing.

Once more a discussion with you pretty much devolves into you responding to specifics with "nah uh". Oh well, God be with you.

matt_hatter

10-15-2006, 09:45 PM

"My pastor said"

krems I wish I had a nickle for every time I read these words in your posts. Now that's a good confession, as I would be moving in real prosperity. It is these words that I hear over and over that cause me and others to ask you to think and use your own brain. You are so trapped by a cultish mindset, yet you will never admit it. As 78 just posted, "God be with you" and I just hope one day you learn to think for yourself. Think, young man, think!!

jbkrems

10-15-2006, 10:39 PM

Miltie:

If I eat something, and it is not agreeing with my stomach (this has happened), immediately I begin to stand on Mark 16, or other Scriptures, and God usually immediately delivers me somehow. This has actually happened to me, by just eating something bad from a restaurant.

mcmstaff: I'll ask you again, as I did in the other thread, would you like me to cite you all the Scriptures that support healing??? I'll do that if you would like, please let me know.

Matt: What is wrong with quoting from my pastor? I agree with his teaching, and his view on the Scripture. So, I am free to include his thoughts here as my own.

Why do you think this is cultish, that I agree and include my pastor's thoughts???

miltietoast

10-15-2006, 10:44 PM

Krems I eat something bad and I immediately head to the toliet and get discernment which end and I am immediately delivered

jbkrems

10-15-2006, 11:19 PM

Miltie: I pray and the same comes quicker. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

miltietoast

10-16-2006, 12:41 AM

I say God I feel like cast and immediately I am full of cast---talk about naming and claiming it

jbkrems

10-16-2006, 02:30 AM

Cast - ?

miltietoast

10-16-2006, 02:39 AM

•••••••

miltietoast

10-16-2006, 02:41 AM

SxHxIxT

jbkrems

10-16-2006, 02:47 AM

Miltie: This conversation is hereby ended.

miltietoast

10-16-2006, 02:55 AM

you do not have the authority to end this conversation

jbkrems

10-16-2006, 03:01 AM

Sure I do, in Jesus name I command you to shut up!

flo1151

10-16-2006, 03:04 AM

what if miltie doen't shut up. Is it your lack of faith. Or is it not the will of God.

miltietoast

10-16-2006, 03:10 AM

oh SxHxIxT

j2theperson

10-16-2006, 03:22 AM

Fascinating. I have just witnessed a WOFer attempt to stifle free speech in the name of Christ.

matt_hatter

10-16-2006, 03:41 AM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gifWatch out Miltie...what in the heck is that word with all them x's? Only word I know with x's is x-ray. Well, there's Xavier, but that don't count. Think that sounds like a Z. Although I have heard folks say XZavier. Oh well, shut up Matt.

jbkrems

10-16-2006, 04:01 AM

Flo: I'm done conversing with you, too, now.

miltietoast

10-16-2006, 07:43 AM

flo you are making a lot of people jealous
mattie come on you alabama red neck-- case XXX knives,dolsequisXXX beer,XXXrated movies,superbowl XXX, Xgames,

mcmstaff78

10-16-2006, 02:23 PM

Anyone remember when you were a kid playing a game in the neighborhood and the kid with the ball is on the losing team, gets made and takes his ball and stomps off home (heck, most of us probably were that kid sometimes)? This thread has reminded me of that.

The attempt to use "faith" to manipulate other human beings to your will is simply magic/witchcraft by another name.

robert_unknown

10-16-2007, 06:02 AM

I have seen a movie about the "JesusCamp" yesterday on TV (no comments, just a videotape about the daily events and routines) and i must say i am disgusted!

i am disgusted about adults who want to make "little warriors" out of small children,

i am disgusted about peoplewho cannot controle their eating habbits (selfcontrole) but want that little children have selfcontrole with "sin" (at least what they think sin is).

i am disgusted about adults who tell children that "the devil is over the gouernement" (why do children need to know this?).

i am disgusted about pagan practices used to "break the devil over the gouvernement" (smacking a pot with a hammer)...

its disgusting when little girls say, that "Jesus is in the churches where people jump and scream for him" but not in the churches "where people are silent and serious".

not ONE time have i heared that Jesus is full of passion and love. not once did they say, that he loves the people in gouvernement. not one time did they pray FOR the gouvernement (like the bible commands us)...

its disgusting how misled people (MCM background?) brainwash little children to make little "christian taliban" out of them who have a certain worldview (not necessarily christian), who behave like them, who talk like them, who think like them.

JesusCamp reminds me more on the "HitlerJugend" or the "RedGuards" then on something Christian!

heck - was that movie weird!

pilgrim

10-16-2007, 09:44 AM

mcmstaff78,

You wrote "The attempt to use "faith" to manipulate other human beings to your will is simply magic/witchcraft by another name."

I agree with you. This is the spirit that was operating in Maranatha.

It was almost impossible to follow God's will in Maranatha because I did have to submit all the plans for my life to the leaders and obey the leaders even if I felt that the Holy Spirit was guiding me to do something else.

If the leaders did not agree with what I felt that God was guiding me to do with my own life they would claim that it was not God's will for me.

Also in Maranatha the leaders seemed to have a God that changed his mind ie. a God who couldn't make up his mind, for example I was chosen to be part of a team that would open a branch of Maranatha in Buenos Aires I think that it was in 1981.

The team that was going to go to Buenos Aires including me was filmed by Nick Pappis, we all had to give our testimony on the film on how God called us to go to Buenos Aires and then after a while they said that it was not God's will to go to Buenos Aires.

However, I was the only one in that team who did go to Buenos Aires but not to work with Maranatha.

I strongly believe that the spirit of manipulation, control and domination is the same as the spirit of witchcraft.

(Message edited by pilgrim on October 16, 2007)

robert_unknown

10-16-2007, 04:35 PM

i agree with you!
how often have i heared from "leadership": "God wants to to this" and then after one month everything was forgoten and God did another thing.

one of the most disturbing things in this respect was a particular person who was bringing strife and confusion to the churches, because he wanted to be aknowledgted as THE apostle for the region by all of us (and some of us resisted his attempts).

Then - out of the blue - he proclaimed that he "has received a macedonian call" from God to move to Newzealand and plant churches there (this was after a 2month holiday in NZ)...

today he is in Australia...

this all happened within some few years...

funny - if you believe that God talks this way to people, than you must realy believe that he is a confused old man...

fact is: people are confused about there future, and then they start behaving foolishly and "blaming" God for it...

i hate this.

formermaranathapastor

10-16-2007, 06:35 PM

Maranatha (or the leaders) operated with a culture that many high pressure religious cults operate with today. It is a high level of control over the people, with lots of guilt if they do not toe the party line, and a seductive process of getting people to overwork themselves.
Everything is about nickels ($$) and noses (number of people).
Furthermore they are representives of the modern day Christian heresy that is the religious right.

robert_unknown

10-17-2007, 05:47 AM

thank God that we live in democratic NON religious (secular) environements.

can you imagine what would happen if those kind of sick people would sit in the gouvernement? i mean the only valid alternative for them (remember in their eyes the gouvernement is occupied by the devil and by evil people) would be to sit in gouvernement themselves.

a nightmare.

thank God that our constitutions and laws limit the powers of religious groups.

Jesus himselve never came to be an earthly ruler.

i have nothing against christian ethics on national level. but i am strictly against cultists trying to "reform" a state into their version of heaven and earth (which would be hell fo 80% of the population).

the religious right is a weird thing!

ginger1

10-17-2007, 03:00 PM

Well , you can imagine how a extreme conservative right would govern the people. Its like dealing with Taliban, driving the country to the ground because of their extreme relgious belief. That is why they are against he separation of church and state. Afghnistan is the best example of the religious rule. They have their own interpretation of Koran, EN/VCF has their own interpretation of the bible.

EN/VCF has been trying to reform the philippines for years. Rubbing shoulders with the politicians,Just recently before the election, Steve M. Invited one of the politician to campaign/speak on the pulpit. A lot of people got upset for it. And here Steve M. denying that he is promoting this politician.
Who is he fooling ? Steve invited him to speak on the pulpit CAMPAIGNING ! and he is denying that he is promoting that politician ??? how stupid does he think people are ?
A lot of people were upset about this in the church. And some are talking it publicly thats how I found out.

coppertree

10-17-2007, 06:47 PM

Hi ALL!

Robert, This blending into government was tried by Marantha, ; it is not a new thing.

We were encouraged to run for office, to infiltrate the political party picked out by Bob W. We marched on college campuses around the country to support the President.

Needless to say this brought national attention to the ministry. Everyone wanted to know about Bob W, how he could influence so many college students, and college alumna.

Actually, it began a long slow decent into the end of Maranatha, as this was covered by the Wall Street Journal with a prominent article. This article covered the many controversies in some detail of Maranatha . I am sure the Steve knew about these events as they occurred in the mid-80's. }

40days40years

10-17-2007, 10:09 PM

Excuse me, why can't conservative Christians organize Robert?, everybody else does. Look at the 45 million abortions in the USA. Lets be realistic Robert do you really think the radical left does not have their own agenda? Will they be happy just stopping at gay marriage, socialism, the destruction of the social fabric of America and the mocking of anything Christian or anything else that promotes traditional values? Heck no they won't and everybody knows it. I mean just recently in the news there is a school that wants to promote birth control for kids that are not even teenagers yet, without parental notification. Now these same "administrators" will be the first to hand the same parents a bill if their kid breaks a window or something, they are the same morons that will suspend a kid if they catch him with an aspirin. Yeah zero tolerance for drugs and those same administrators then juice up the kids on Ridlin and other mind altering drugs. You guys are knocking people that are trying to put up a fight for a decent society. Don't worry though we are losing the culture war. I look around society and I don't see the Christian Right imposing themselves on society anywhere but I see the cultural left doing it everywhere and it is some pretty dirty stuff and it's getting worse.

As far as American Christians being like the Taliban ? It's Christian soldiers that put some limits on the Taliban in Afghanistan, we did not see to many enlightened Euros fighting for the poor women being trampled on by the Taliban there, did we???? I guess they were to busy getting some hash at the coffee shop.

As far as EN promoting certain candidates? In the mid eighties there was a satellite prayer meeting and Rice stood up and was promoting some Phillipino politician and it was not Aquino. I am not sure but I think it was Tolentino? So this behaviour goes way back.

40days40years

10-17-2007, 11:42 PM

Robert you said: the religious right is a weird thing!

40/40: I guess it depends on how you define the religious right. If were talking about people with extreme beliefs like the Gary North / Jay Rogers crowd then I would tend to agree.

If were talking about your average Southern Baptist/AOG/700-Club member who tends to vote Republican and abortion and family values is a consideration to who they vote for? Then I disagree, those are just concerned citizens who happen to be right 95% of the time.

Plus ideas such as having a strong military, low taxes and limited govt.? Those values are just normal conservative positions that most conservatives out there hold to. So in that case better to be religous right then to be religous wrong.

robert_unknown

10-18-2007, 06:23 AM

Jesus NEVER got involved in politics.
I do believe that we as christians shall set moral standarts. But not by necessarily becoming politicians but more through beeing good examples.

Thats wehere EN fails. They fail to live moral lives but instead concentrate on programmes and activities to reach their targets/ vision.

we all have seen how this affects the people in the church negATIVELY.

xman3

10-18-2007, 07:17 AM

Jesus NEVER got involved in politics.

I'm with 40 for the most part here. I think most of what he expressed is right on. Not everything, but most.

To say Jesus never got involved in politics is a little confusing to me though. I'm no cultural expert or anything, but what I see in the Bible in regards to the politics of Israel, is they were inseperable from the religious aspect of things. The pharasees and sadusees etc... whom He directed the vast majority of His correction and rebuke were, to a large extent , the political area too.

I'll leave it at that so my ignorance in this are is not further magnified, but I see Jesus as very involved in politics, even though He certainly didn't hold a political office. God clearly didn't call Him to do so, but that doesn't mean He wants all unbelievers in office making the rules. That is a very scary notion to me.

40days40years

10-18-2007, 10:18 AM

Yeah Robert, you were basically thanking God that Christians were not in government.

Interesting question about whether Jesus was involved with politics or not? And if not does that mean we follow his example in this decision?
Jesus was the Son of God and politics is about cutting deals and promoting your view point and we all know that is not what Jesus is about. In one sense Jesus was killed because he was not interested in politics, the zealots wanted an overthrow of Roman rule. Some say when Judas saw that Jesus was not going to go this route of revolution he betrayed him. I don't know.

Jesus came to die for everyone (even the Romans) and it is significant that history shows he was murdered not because he was just another revolutionary fighting Rome. Jesus said my Kingdom is not of this world. The Romans thought he was a harmless philosopher fool, they tried to prevent his execution but went ahead with it due to political expedience. So much for justice.

We are not Jesus, we are people who inherited a political system that says participate or lose your rights, in fact you may be deemed a bad steward if you do not vote and support Godly candidates.

40days40years

10-18-2007, 10:47 AM

Robert, we don't have a State church that rules in America. There were many that had your view point about 60 years a go and their philosphy was be like Jesus, set a good example and don't get involved with politics. Billy Graham was part of that crowd at one time. What did it get us except a Marxist ACLU that stripped us of our religious rights, gave us abortion and a massive porno/drug culture? This was imposed on a nation that disagreed with this stuff, WHY ?

The majority of the Christians laid down and died. It's CRAP!

40days40years

10-18-2007, 10:51 AM

Anyway Robert keep posting! Your a good guy.

ginger1

10-18-2007, 03:25 PM

40/40 , Turkey is in the same position like us in America. Though they are not christians, they are muslims. They do not like pornography etc. due to religious values (muslim). So their religious conservative right (muslim)are doing what the christians like us is doing, enter into politics.

I don't mind christians enter into politics, as long as there is a line drawn what is extreme religious right. Thats what Turkey did. They have anti-religious police on the street, arresting people who are extremely religious. They will overthrow the goverment if it gone too far.
They can exercise their freedom of religion. As long as they do not cross the line of extreme. They prefer secular society with the influence of religion.

the American Society are a bit more secular with a influence of religion. What we need is balance.

Go to some places in Europe , where being secular has gone extreme. Which we do not want that also.

ginger1

10-18-2007, 03:26 PM

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/003dncoj.asp?pg=1

robert_unknown

10-18-2007, 04:28 PM

Yeah Robert, you were basically thanking God that Christians were not in government.

nonono... you understand me wrong. i have no problem with Christians getting involved in politics, if they fell thats the place the should be, and if they dont get corupted moraly through this step. i do also believe that we as christians shall have a voice in society, but politics is IMHO not the main focus.

I believe that the most important focus for us as christians should not be the external world around us, but first and primarly our inner wolrd, the state of our spirit and soul. out values and our character. our relationship with God.

only then we are able to love our neighbour unconditionaly and with the love of God.

remember all the Christians in totalitarian nations who have no possibility to engage in politics. remember the first church. they changed the world because they had something real.

in respect to the religous right i often think that we do things the other way around: change the laws and the gouvernement and then everything is alright?

groups like EveryNation proof that if the mind gets focused to much on the external things and the internal things like character and integrity and the resulting love for our brothers and sisters gets forgotten.