VLI on HEADSHIP

[dust (dust)]

VLI Teaching


There is a revised curriculum, and this is from the old VLI, but there still exists a teaching on Apostolic Foundations, and if the church no longer teaches this lesson headship, I was not informed. There is an opportunity here for EN to restate a different belief on headship.

This is RIGHT FROM THE TEXT, Session Six,

UNDERSTANDING HEADSHIP

1. Once we discern spiritual family and God-given relationships, we are immediately confronted with the issue of HEADSHIP.

2. God’s kingdom is highly ordered, and God Himself is a God of ORDER. Order implies the concepts of “sequence” and “arrangement,” therefore, “headship” becomes a priority.

3. Because of the inborn, Adamic spirit of independence and REBELLION, the concept of headship blocks many believers from coming into maturity and destiny.

4. Anyone without a revelation of God-given placement and relationships, headship, will ultimately REJECT headship.

5. Discerning and honoring headship means we allow God’s AGENT to direct us, define us, and speak into our lives, not unlike the attitude of an obedient son in a natural family.

END OF VLI NOTES

Take a moment, pray, think, renew your MIND with the WORD, seek the Holy Spirit. These are the FUNDAMENTAL BELIEFS of EN that temper EVERYTHING else they do, including their teaching on "covering." These statements define a theological VIEW of Jesus Christ, and of the ROLE of the church.

It dismisses Jesus Christ as HEAD of the church, which Paul clearly defines:

And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church. Ephesians 1:22

1 Cor 10:4 10:4
and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

1 Cor 3:11 3:11
For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
Dust

[dust (dust)]

VLI on HEADSHIP COMMENTARY
1. Once we discern spiritual family and God-given relationships, we are immediately confronted with the issue of HEADSHIP.

Christ as HEAD is always described in terms of Jesus Christ as Lord and SAVIOR, as a SERVANT LEADER who in His HEADSHIP, brought us life.
Never did He demand that His disciples SERVE Him, They FOLLOWED Him.
And, He TAUGHT them. He FED them. He SHARED His Body and Blood with them. He FORGAVE them. HE GIFTED them with Eternal life. This is what CHRIST showed us HEADSHIP means.


Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 John 4:1


Only CHRIST deserves HEADSHIP.

Discernment of relationships and Spiritual Family? Where does discernment come from, but the Holy Spirit, and as a new believer grows in knowledge of the Word and gains sharper hearing from the Holy Spirit, he will soon see that he may, indeed, be in the wrong house. But, the trick in EN is that once you are in, no matter what you learn later that may jab at your Spirit, that "discernment" is not ALLOWED. They call that "listening to the voice of the enemy." So, when can a believer in EN know when he is listening to the Holy Spirit or the enemy? "Discernment" is not allowed, and instead of being taught to "LISTEN" to the Holy Spirit, you are actually taught to BLOCK OUT the Holy Spirit. That is why there are so many "confused" congregants in EN church right now.
Dust

[dust (dust)]

Point 2 Continued on VLI Headship Notes

VLI NOTES on HEADSHIP (Taken from Apostolic Foundations)

Exactly taken from VLI POINT 2.
God’s kingdom is highly ordered, and God Himself is a God of ORDER. Order implies the concepts of “sequence” and “arrangement,” therefore, “headship” becomes a priority.

What does this mean. God’s kingdom IS highly ordered, with God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Seems perfectly ordered to me. And, Jesus said:

9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. F126 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. Mat 23:9-15

Dust

[dust (dust)]

Commentary Continued on VLI NOTES on HEADSHIP
This is POINT 3, typed exactly from the notes:

3. Because of the inborn, Adamic spirit of independence and REBELLION, the concept of headship blocks many believers from coming into maturity and destiny.

Commentary of Dust: We no longer, as believers, are under the curse of Adam. That is to make the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ INADEQUATE. We are justified. The Word tells us that, and Jesus didn’t HALF do the job so that we would require HEADSHIP to curtail our “inborn” rebellion.”

Romans 5: 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.

The concept of “inborn, Adamic spirit of independence and rebellion” blocking many believers from maturity and destiny conflicts the Word. A “believer” is no longer under the curse of First Adam, but is now Freed from second Adam, Jesus Christ. This doesn’t mean, a believer is perfect. There is life long sanctification process for all believers; however, we are no longer under the “curse” of Adam as VLI states. And, the work of Jesus Christ is DONE, FINISHED. We need NO MAN to complete us.

And we cannot be blocked from our destiny as true believers.
Our destiny is our IDENTITY in CHRIST. We simply must ACCEPT this and RECEIVE this identity. But, the heavy burden, the heavy yoke placed on believers in EN actually tries to wear this identity away and place guilt and condemnation where it does NOT belong.

Dust

[dust (dust)]

Exact Notes
4. Anyone without a revelation of God-given placement and relationships, headship, will ultimately REJECT headship.

Dust Commentary:


EN says there is a “revelation” that man must receive of Headship, spiritual relationship, or else they will “naturally reject headship.
What Bible passage can EN reference regarding this revelation?
Even the revelation of the HEADSHIP of Jesus Christ is backed up in scripture multiple times, and this headship is always in a context of what JESUS has done FOR US..by sacrifice and by servanthood.


Dust

[dust (dust)]

HERE IS POINT 5 STRAIGHT FROM VLI NOTES:
5. Discerning and honoring headship means we allow God’s AGENT to direct us, define us, and speak into our lives, not unlike the attitude of an obedient son in a natural family.
END NOTES

DUST COMMENTARY: Honoring headship allows for God’s AGENT to direct and define us? Who, then is God’s agent? Did God not send Jesus Christ as AGENT to open the doors directly to God, removing all need for any AGENT, who also advises us and counsels us by the Holy Spirit, which is also God. In other words, God sent HIMSELF for God is Jesus and is the Holy Spirit!

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

Our director is the Holy Spirit. Let NO MAN think he is God; Let no man exalt himself in the place of the Holy Spirit. And, saints, beware, you are trapped into serious idolatry in allowing a man to direct you, define you, and speak into your life if it is in opposition to WHO GOD is. Let NO MAN take the place of Jesus Christ or imply his "office" or that he must finish the work of Jesus Christ!


24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! 25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
Mat 23:24-25

This “tight” control over a believer’s life presenting the idea of “discerning” and “honoring” headship means to EN, that THEY will discern for you, and they will receive “honor” FROM you. Direction does not mean “teaching the bible, because they do NOT teach the bible, just SELECTED verses. And, a partial bible is NOT the bible. The directing has more to do with your contribution to their vision, which may or may not include personal service with no wage. They also convince you that you do not have the ability to think for yourself; in other words, they deny YOUR salvation and what the bible now tells you that YOU have from Christ. You still need something from THEM, because you are not capable. But the Word says something else.

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" F7 But we have the mind of Christ.


What does this mean for us? Here is what the Matthew Henry commentary says:
“It is the great privilege of Christians, that they have the mind of Christ revealed to them by his Spirit. They experience his sanctifying power in their hearts, and bring forth good fruits in their lives.”

DUST SAYS: So, if we are to believe CHRIST AS REAL, SALVATION AS REAL, WE should humble ourselves one to another and realize that it is GOD, JESUS, HOLY SPIRIT , this trinity that has ESTABLISHED Us, who GUIDES OUR HEART, OUR MIND, and is our true HEADSHIP.

And Dust prays: God, please pour out your Spirit on those reading this and REVEAL your TRUE nature. Humbly, I make my attempt to KNOW YOU and SHOW you to those who may have been deceived as I was. You have kindly lifted the bondage off of me, and I have repented of putting men over God, but you have directed me to truth of you and how BIG the UNDESERVED sacrifice of your son really is. I realize there is NOTHING I can do to add to this sacrifice, to improve upon it....and I now know what it means to hear that Christ set us free.

Dust

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

No Man Can Lay a FOUNDATION Other than JESUS CHRIST.

EN leaders, What type of foundation do you think that you put on the people that they
1. Cannot think for themselves that you have to think for them.
2. Cannot discern the Spirit that you have to discern for them.
3. Or even get contaminated if they hang out with christians of other ministries or even unbelievers.
4. Or even read christian books without the EN leaders approval.

[formermaranathapastor (formermaranathapastor)]

This teaching on Headship is representative that EN is a bonofide CULT. The whole issue is control over the people by seemingly to tie that into God's Will for them. This is "another gospel" and is heresy.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

That is pretty bad, sounds like normal sheperding/discipleship manipulation. I love how the material says that headship becomes a "priority", which obviouly means submission to their system and kingdom is submission to God. No mention of Jesus being the head and following his humble serving example. If Jesus was mentioned they would probably say that we should submit to the leaders like Jesus submitted to the Father.

Do you remember in Maranatha when the leaders especially Bob when visting would interact with the audience? It went something like are you the head or the tail what are you?? Answer yelled back: "Were the head not the tail" Did God create you to be the tail or the head?. "The head" -- It is kind of ironic because many of the first will be last in the age to come and speaking of heads and tails remember a dragon has a head and a tail also. Now to be fair I realize that Bob and others were trying to build up kids self esteem and get them away from a defeatest attitude but never the less these practices and teachings go way to far. My memory keeps getting jogged by all these EN teachings. Thanks Dust.

[helpfulcommentary (helpfulcommentary)]

In response to the postings about VLI/ENLI, I would like to confirm that session 6 of the Apostolic Foundations material was as dust specified. This curriculum was authored in Feb of 2000. One interesting thing to note is that session 6 is in a totally different layout and font than the other 5 sessions. It must have been put in there by someone else. Perhaps this is the Leo Lawson thing that others have pointed to.

The latest version of the curriculum does not have anything similar to this. It has several statements about things like encouragement, etc. At the time the new curriculum was deployed ENLI admins were told they no longer had the right to teach the old VLI materials and it was suggested that the instructors take them home for personal edification. No further comment was made. I believe it was understood at the time though that there were some concerns about the spiritual family teaching in particular being unacceptable. Not sure where these originated.

I don't think there is much here. There were problems in the curriculum, they were removed, apparently along with the source of the problems.

(Message edited by helpfulcommentary on December 28, 2005)

[another_brick_in_the_wall (another_brick_in_the_wall)]

40 days,
Fast forward to the present: The whole "Are you the head or the tail" bit is still echoed in various EN leaders' opening remarks to audience/conference attendees. Across the board demographics - not simply aimed at college kids now.

[dust (dust)]

Helpfulcommentary,
Thank you for your response.

Do you agree that this teaching was wrong, incorrect, inappopriate in any way?
Dust

[helpfulcommentary (helpfulcommentary)]

There are some important truths in what is presented above. Rebellion is something we all have to face. The problem it seems to me is that when taken together and applied in their natural context, they could lay a foundation for unhindered control.

I am particularly concerned about the following statement:

5. Discerning and honoring headship means we allow God’s AGENT to direct us, define us, and speak into our lives, not unlike the attitude of an obedient son in a natural family.

Should we follow our leaders? Yes. The Bible says to submit to them. However, to say that some "AGENT" of God is going to direct us and define us, without any qualification goes beyond any Bibilcal warrant I'm aware of.

I'll take it a step further even... I think that key people must have also found similar issues with this portion of the curriculum or it would not have been changed in the way that it was.

(Message edited by helpfulcommentary on December 28, 2005)

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

helpfulcommentary,
There is a whole generation of EN leaders that were raised with this teaching. It won't go away just due to a change in a few statements in a class. It was the core belief system of my old msi/en church. I can't tell you how many times I tried to make a life decision and when a pastor disagreed with me I heard "who is your pastor?" or "who is discipling you?" The first thing that my pastor did for me when I joined his church was prayed against my independent spirit as he taught me about my new spiritual family. One "counselor" said several times that I had to make a choice between my blood family and spiritual family. These are beliefs of Rice Broocks himself. He expects people he has baptised to see him as having a fatherly role in their lives - like they were his children. I don't think changing VLI notes will make any difference as long as Rice and his disciples are still practicing their "covering" belief system. As I have heard many times from my old msi/en pulpit, "the fish rots from the head".

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Well Brick that is kind of why I brought that up I figured the head and tail exchange was still going on and you confirmed it just like you confirmed the banshee yell thing.

lc_20 you said: One "counselor" said several times that I had to make a choice between my blood family and spiritual family.

That is disturbing and I do realize that sometimes we may have to choose between what Jesus our creator wants but for these people to then put themselves in Jesus sandals and demand you choose between them and your blood family? It is worse than what I encountered in Maranatha. Especially In light of the fact that the spiritual family in EN will not be there for you for the long hall in very bad situations (like extreme long term illness) while your blood family most likely will be there for you. What about scriptures saying honor your father and mother?, of course I realize if your family told you to renounce Christ you would have to refuse a request like that.

Helpful C, I do think it is great that there are people in EN at the higher levels who do stand up and change things like in the Agent of God instance. The thing that is disturbing is that MCM/MSI/EN make an extensive theology of control over a simple truth that Christ is head of the church. In what other church do you even hear about "HEAD SHIP"? It is a little bizare quite frankly. To take that knowledge and then use it to somehow usurp Christ position for their own purposes. Why not just say Christ is the Head of the church and eject the rest of this theology?

[another_brick_in_the_wall (another_brick_in_the_wall)]

Thanks for the insight and retrospect, 40 days. Much appreciated.

Helpful Commentary,
Thank you for your comment as well. It is noted that EN's key people prompted the change of the curriculum. The questions remain though...
1) Who initially approved the first version of teaching materials?
(this is a rehetorical question...but designed to prompt the question "where does the buck stop?")

You stated that this particular material was included in by someone else. Respectfully I must counter that explanation doesn't hold water. There must have been the overseer of this material (a'la a dean) where someone gave the final approval to insert.

I've been in the EN Nashville office... I experienced for myself that one does not simply initiate action or projects without jumping through appropriate hoops. Everyone (the pastors) is too scared to sign or vouch for anything "without permission".

The pastors are like sitting toads...too afraid to jump.

2) Did the EN leaders notify past VLI attendees and graduates of these certain changes in the materials?

As LC stated earlier, there is a generation of leaders and followers who have wholeheartedly embraced this teaching. This teaching has simply not been gleaned from sitting in the 2 hours a week VLI class for two years.... it permeates the fabric of EN leaders and followers. It is apart of the DNA.

Am I wrong with this assertion? Has this mindset been change within the members?

Has this fact been addressed? Or was the change in curriculum simply for cosmetic purposes?

[dust (dust)]

Brick, I was waiting for someone to raise this point you made when you said,
"As LC stated earlier, there is a generation of leaders and followers who have wholeheartedly embraced this teaching. This teaching has simply not been gleaned from sitting in the 2 hours a week VLI class for two years.... it permeates the fabric of EN leaders and followers. It is apart of the DNA. "

I can tell you from first hand experience, they did not "contact" anyone that graduated (hundreds) to recant this teaching. NO where, (pulpit, ministry team meetings, staff meetings) has this been discussed, recanted, retaught, retrained.

And, the word, "headship" is used with frequency; the concept is alive, it is at the ROOT of this ministry. I could give you examples as of this month, but I don't want to expose anyone.

This is a subculture inside the church and it's very real.

If you are not very involved with the church, and enjoy the service, etc., you will never know what really takes place. It's all under the radar, until you give your heart to the church, and get placed inside the leadership hierarchy.

I feel free to speak here, because I was on the wrongside of headship, and am very repentive for that. Never to an extreme of placing myself above Jesus Christ, but, enough to feel the need for change, enough to wish I could live a few things over, and enough to know that I wasn't too smart or too holy that I couldn't ESCAPE some of the core values put inside of me during my education in VLI.

I sat in this headship class at the time with about 100 other people and didn't bllink an eye. I am deeply sorry for this, and for not leaving. I joined this church to SERVE AND FOLLOW
Jesus Christ and ended up in classes getting this heresy put into my head, by people I LOVED and admired, in a place I cherished.

Dust

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

I know that the VLI curriculum has been change and Leo has been removed. I know also that people were not informed about the change. To answer brick question who has approved this curriculum, its Phil Bonasso. Phil Bonasso is the one who brought Leo in from the old maranatha. Knowing Phil, he is not a bright man, and is very lazy to study or even to read books. He just trusted Leo with all these junks. Its also Steve Murrell and a few asian pastors who look through what was being taught in america , thats how they found out.

Anyway, my next question is if the HEADSHIP WAS REPLACED IN VLI. Would EN change its Bylaws, because the BYLAWS OF EN itself said that the top Apostles are the HEAD of the EN. What was taught in the past VLI in regards to Headship, its also written in the contract and are required to sign by ALL EN Pastors.

Changing curriculum does not mean EN headship has changed. The requirement of change was first to admit the mistake that EN made. EN themselves teaches that to confess your mistakes/sins. There is no admittance of the mistake or even damage that was done to several thousands of people who went through Leo's VLI.

(Message edited by ginger1 on December 29, 2005)

[40days40years (40days40years)]

I have a question to, Dust said:If you are not very involved with the church, and enjoy the service, etc., you will never know what really takes place. It's all under the radar, until you give your heart to the church, and get placed inside the leadership hierarchy.

O.K can you go to EN for years now and just enjoy the service without eventually being told to make more of a commitment? I ask this because in Maranatha with some leaders they could be pretty blunt and heavy handed and make you choose between churches or make a firm commitment and not just to Christ. With EN taking over churches you got to figure that there are more family people etc. being taken into the fold who are busy and have no desire to be in leadership. Can you just be a member, stay out of trouble and pay your tithe and be oblivious to the headship thing for years?

[another_brick_in_the_wall (another_brick_in_the_wall)]

40 years,
Dust may have a more recent perspective... but my response to your question is "yes and no". I do know of people who attend Bethel and simply just show up to the Sunday morning services to enjoy the music and hoopla. Never step into the tangled net.

Yet, I do recall that a couple of years ago... the Ministry Team members were assigned the task of visiting and meeting with the visitors. They would go to their homes, present a bag of candy or something like that... I do know that the MT members were commissioned during this time to confront ppl who were visiting on multiple occasions... simply put: if the MT member knew someone was visiting after a certain period. The MT member would then confront the visitor and state that they either had to make a commitment to Bethel... or move onto another church.

I'm uncertain how long this particular campaign lasted...

[dust (dust)]

40Days,
Here is what I mean. Bethel gets a lot of "visitors," who attend but do not become members. I personally know people who have attended for years, but couldn't bringt themselves to sign the membership covenant. They don't serve; they may go to cell groups, but they aren't "involved." Bethel has 3 Sunday services....and many more attending that are not actual members. It is the nature of this town for this type of visiting....it is the nature of how the music draws for "entertainment" and for people to feel like an "audience" and not a "participant."

Not only can you be oblivious to the headship thing and how wrong it is, you can be like me and be INVOLVED in it and miss it.

Satan works like this: SOUNDS GOOD, and IS MOSTLY TRUE. It is the subtle weaving in and out of false teaching inside a lot of GOOD TRUTH from people you LOVE that allows for this.

I could say so much more right now, but I can't betray the trust of others....Let me say thank you for having a place to clear my own heart, search for truth and be healed. Yesterday freed me.
Dust

[dust (dust)]

It is hard to believe that this was taught somehow on the sly. It is an inherent "PRACTICE" of daily life in EN, to this day. Some of the rewriting may have resulted in taking a good look, and realizing the teachings resembled too closely Maranatha, bad publicity, etc.

In the Sons vs. Servants (WHICH IS SESSION 5 (before Headship)
VLI notes make this statement.

RIGHT FROM THE NOTES:
"2. In its simplest terms, the Gospel is all about a Father and a Son." END NOTES

They are trying to make a point that God is now building generationally...(?) and they move to make this point in point 5.

RIGHT FROM THE NOTES:
5. The final words of the Old Testament refer to the coming of the Lord relating to:
a. the blessing of fathers and sons hearts united.
b. the curse if that fails to occur.
END NOTES

And, here is what I wrote as my notes:
Moses was a faithful "servant"
Christ was here as a "son"
Thus, the old testament was servant minded.
The new testament is "son-minded"
Thus, sons build, servants serve.


BEGIN NOTES:
"To understand, "How God Builds" equips you to give your time, talent and treasure to the things that really matter, and come to the full maturity and destiny intended for you when He made you!
END NOTES

This is all twisted....
DUST

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Dust, this is kind of subtle and blunt all at the same time and I do concure that folks will tolerate error delivered with truth from people they love and not be too critical. I know leaders don't believe they are God the Father but there sadly appears to be an implied father son relationship between leadership and members and curses to boot. That is cultish since in controlling groups leaders act like they are the parents and the lower members are treated like young children. Ofcourse you can't serve two sets of parents hence the extreme thing that happened to lc_20.

Brick, I bet the make them choose routine was toned down since it appears according to Dust you have a culture in Tenn. where there is massive visiting going on. One thing I know is that these guys are very sensitive to their image and will try to protect it. See that old Maranatha junk just keeps on popping up forcing leadership to always be on damage control duty.

Hopefully it is not as bad as it reads. Hopefully it is like what Ginger says and Phil was just lazy and let Leo write and insert a bunch of junk, these guys are obviously imbibing from a tainted well and don't know it. It does sound like Steve Murell has had fits over some of this stuff which is good.

[formermaranathapastor (formermaranathapastor)]

It is not the leadership's responsibility to perfect us, that is between myself and God. The church should provide a place of like-mindedness, a place of worship, and a place of study. It is a climate to facilitate relationship between God and people.

Revelation comes when there is a divine spark uniting my spirit with the divine. It cannot come on the coattails of another. Today's church attempts to tell us what to think, what to wear, how to look, and how to be in the world. Maranatha/MSI/EN was the extreme case of this heresy.

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi All Catching up. I read this post with great interest. The teachings in VLI, teachings in En, which is old Maranatha thoughts that were never examined; just taught, shallowed. And then were parroted back to new people. It never stopped; although it was said to have. I believe as some has said; that it got worse.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Coppertree, yes it did got worse. I remember during bob Weiner's time. You can voice your opinion and even though you get pummelled, you still can voice your opinion. NOT in EN. That freedom is removed.
Its better to just leave EN and warn others about it and expose them as much as we can.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

That fact that the word headship is used frequently is kind of strange they already have the word leadership. This teaching of headship and the authority it conveys over the average believer is not good at describing a humble Jesus whos burden is light and yoke is easy. The headship teaching dovetails nicely into Jim Lafoons preachings on the manifest sons of God who are the ruling overcomers in the future who according to that theology they take a bride (i.e normal christians to rule over) and they have headship over them like a man has headship over his own marriage. If I got this wrong feel free to chime in anyone. Jesus of course lays his life down for his bride but this teaching is not empasizing sacrifice and the servanthood of Christ. To any EN people who stumble in here please read the thread on Jims preaching and following commentary before you judge us as wack jobs.

It is just amazing the levels of control from covenents, apostolic foundations, headship doctrines, ruling manifest sons of God theology. It is like your a 98lb weakling in a wrestling ring facing 4 huge guys all at the same time.

[dust (dust)]

"It is like your a 98lb weakling in a wrestling ring facing 4 huge guys all at the same time."

That gave me a good laugh...kinda like David and Goliath....

You refer to EN having headship over man, like a husband over his wife. Makes sense when you think YOU are the bridegroom!

Dust

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Dust,

You said: "....Let me say thank you for having a place to clear my own heart, search for truth and be healed."

I think this forum has helped many people heal including myself. I have been thinking about why this is true. Why is there so much freedom in posting our thoughts. I think for me it is because I had been silenced for so many years. It feels good to have a forum in which to discuss issues that were way out of bounds in the msi/en environment. When I asked questions about finances, theology... I was asked "what have you been focusing on?" Like I had gotten my eyes off of Christ to even be questioning my leaders. I have found that lately, when I run into people from my old church, I have my freedom back and can speak to them honestly about the problems I saw with the church without fear of judgement or rejection.

40days, I agree that when I was under their covering, I felt like a weakling. But, after being out and healing, I can see they are just big fish in a little pond - nothing to fear once you are out.

[helpfulcommentary (helpfulcommentary)]

Brick, I believe you misinterpreted my comment about "someone else" having written session six. I wasn't suggesting that it was just slipped in. I was simply pointing out that the different formatting probably also meant a different author than the other 5 sessions.

The fact that these things were removed is good. However, I think you are right to suggest that the problem needs a wider "fix" It's good the that at least the strongest elements of the control-supporting doctrine has been removed from VLI/ENLI, but more is needed.

I do not think that even if the movement melted down like Maranatha did, that it would really fix the problem--since obviously the issues just came back in another incarnation. What is needed is a fundamental change wihch over time can be percolated down through all of the leadership, and for those who refuse to change to be removed.

At least from that perspective things seem to be moving in the right direction. Within the past couple of years it appears that those perceived to be the more controlling types (Greg Ball, Phil, Leo, Tony, etc) are being progressively replaced with more mainstream types.

But there is additional issue of damage control versus repentance. Most of the items discussed on this board are totally unknown to members and even many leaders of EN. Instead of things being publically corrected, they are just swept away. Let's give the benefit of the doubt and say the intent is to protect those involved.. I still don't think it's Biblical. If there is a sincere desire for change, then those who misuse authority need to be put on notice publically.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

When I was attending Phil Bonasso's church, I was hoping for a reform. I prayed and hoped for a reform, till the Lord told me to get out of MSI. After I left. I started to talk to people, now by the hundreds all over the world. Evidences of financial irregularities start to come in. Now, my views of EN has change, there will never be a reform. If it was just the doctrinal issues, yes, there is hope of change and reform. But now when there are money issues involved.
Greed and love of money. Love of Money is the Root of all Evil. The Pharasees saw Jesus messing up their finances and they planned and killed Jesus for it.
Prophesy is already given by Rick Joyner. I am waiting for alethia's prophesy and Rick joyner's prophesy to come to pass in regards to EN.

[formermaranathapastor (formermaranathapastor)]

Ginger- I somehow missed Rick Joyner's prophecy concerning EN. Is it on these threads somewhere?

Thank you

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Yea, somewhere in factnet from early this year. I have to look for the book, then post it here.

[helpfulcommentary (helpfulcommentary)]

From "The Apostolic Ministry" by Rick Joyner p17,19

Years before the apostolic networks became popular, we were given a prophetic warning of a false apostolic movement that would come. I say “we” because this came to several on our team, in various ways. We were also told the location where this movement would arise. When I began to inquire about this I was told that this false apostolic movement would end up being more devastating to the church than the Shepherding Movement had been, and that it would be taken over by the same control spirit and political spirit that came in to the Shepherding Movement. The political spirit is what would motivate one to build the church or their ministry, more on human alliances than in obedience to the Holy Spirit. From this time, I began more of the in-depth study on these strongholds that resulted in much of what I have written about them since.

At the time these warnings came, there did not seem to be anything in the church that even remotely fit the description of this false apostolic movement. Now there does seem to be some, and it is falling into the pattern of what we were shown. We have been very public about this warning for years. I believe we have shared these warnings every time we have felt to prophetically speak about the restoration of the apostolic ministry to the church.

[[Talks about Saul/David]]

…This is the warning that I was personally given about the restoration of the apostolic ministry to the church—that one would come first that did seem to be “head and shoulders” above the other movements in the church, but it was premature and would cause many problems. Though these biblical precedents are seldom completely accurate in the way they reflect later parallels, they are good guidelines.

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

ginger,

Yes, find the prophecy from "Apostle" Rick Joyner (http://www.pfo.org/r-joyner.htm) on EN. Let's see what he has to say (http://www.cephasministry.com/joels_army_the_call_joyner.html).

--Bill

[helpfulcommentary (helpfulcommentary)]

So the question here becomes, why should we associate this prophecy with EN?

Is it really considered to be "head an shoulders" above other movements?

If it imploded today would it be more damaging to the church than the Shepherding movement? Probably not. The breadth of influence of EN is very narrow compared to the Shepherding Movement. The Shepherding movement included some of the biggest names in Charismatic Christianity at that time, and basically divided the entire movement into two segments.

A key here would be what the "location" is that Joyner had in mind. Also, if he's given other warnings, what is the content of those. Interesting enough, Bob Weiner is on Rick Joyner's board, I wonder if that might affect the interpretation or if that is part of the "we"

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Rick joyner also included those prophesy of two distinguishing marks.
1. Recruiting of churches.
2. The ministry roots came from the Shepherding movement.

Those two are the distnguishing marks of EN. And yes, EN is far lot worse than maranatha.
i would not drag bob Weiner's name here in EN. Since first he is not part of EN and second, he has repented. I heard him twice.
thats the difference between Bob Weiner and EN leadership. EN leadership have repeated time and time again that they did no wrong and they are not controlling. When all evidences and testimonies of the people all over the world prove otherwise.



(Message edited by ginger1 on December 30, 2005)

[helpfulcommentary (helpfulcommentary)]

I'm not accusing Bob Weiner of anything. I just think that it's an important piece of information to be aware of when weighing such a prophecy.

While I fully agree that EN is ultimately rooted in Shepherding--Steve Murrell himself admits that he "cut his teeth" on "New Wine" magazine, I don't think that resolves the issues I raised. EN is basically unknown, even in the charismatic world. Others could be building on the same foundation. I know at least one very influential author has released a book quite reminiscent of the Shepherding movement. Also, according to the Joyner book, many Apostolic networks "recruit."

If this prophecy really applies to EN, I'd need more to go on.

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

helpfulcommentary,

"The breadth of influence of EN is very narrow compared to the Shepherding Movement."

Really? EN and its leaders, regardless of their current name, have always been an integral part of the shepherding/discipleship movement (http://www.intotruth.org/res/kt2.html), not separate from it.

"If it imploded today would it be more damaging to the church than the Shepherding movement?"

Again, they *are* the shepherding movement, not separate from it. There is no broken link between the current leaders and those in the 70's and 80's that crippled 10's of 1000's of Christians so as to make them dependant upon their captors. Sung Myung Moon, William Branham, "Moses" David Berg, Bob Weiner, etc. all started their cults in the 70's and 80's. Francis Frangipane (http://op.50megs.com/ditc/frangipane.html) and John Paul Jackson (http://www.cephasministry.com/evangelists_jackson.html) are former members of The Walk started by NOLR leader John Roberts Stevens. They are all cut from the same hermetic cloth (http://www.luciferlink.org/mmore.htm).

"If this prophecy really applies to EN, I'd need more to go on."

Even if Joyner's prophecy did somehow apply to EN, the Bible tells us not to listen to *any* prophet if they lead the believer away from the truth, which Joyner has dozens of times. The documentation on Joyner's false prophecies are outstanding. The eyewitness accounts of his heretical teachings and occult practices are legion.

The biggest joke with Richard O. Joyner is his involvement with the Knights of Malta. I had a conversation with a historical expert on the Knights of Malta. He checked out the order that Joyner joined and found it to be a false order!!! (http://www2.prestel.co.uk/church/selfstyle/cumbo.htm) In other words, Rick Joyner, with all his merry false prophets that travel with him to give him a "reading" or spiritual evaluation of persons Joyner encounters couldn't even discern that the order Joyner covenanted with was false. Rick Joyner and the rest of his sorcerers couldn't prophesie themselves out of a wet paper bag!!!

Like the Beatles in the 60's, you simply would not believe how people absolutely swoon at his presense. I am an eyewitness to his utter heresy and false teachings as a highly-honored guest and a public meeting. Like William Branham (http://usuarios.lycos.es/oscarrei/hpbimg/img2.gif), there must have been a spirit-guide (http://www.spiritguide.com.au/pages/magpages/magimages/cover11.jpg)or some unclean spirit bewitching the masses as the crowd went wild! Joyner has got to be a forerunner for the anti-christ. Is Rick Joyner an apostle? Absolutely! But never an apostle of the God of the Bible. You do the math.

Now Rick Joyner and former PTL A/G minister Jim Bakker have teamed up (http://www.heraldonline.com/local/story/5430600p-4904641c.html). What's next!

--Bill

(Message edited by Bill_Mack on December 31, 2005)

[cupatea (cupatea)]

Dust - where does the version of the VLI notes you have come from - is it one of the USA varients? I have both the teachers and student notes from Manila from 2002 and the word 'HEADSHIP' doesn't appear at all in the Apostolic Foundations section.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Cupatea,
You got me interested in what was in my foundation notes. Mine were written by Ron Lewis prior to becoming part of MSI/EN. Afterwards, I think the church used MSI/EN books.

Under a section about baptism it says that baptism should be
1. immediately,
2. by immersion and
3. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:47-48, 19:4-5:

"In Matthew 28:19 Jesus mentions the Trinity as the Name in which to baptize new converts. In Acts, as mentioned in the Scriptures above, it appears the apostles baptized in Jesus' name. There is no need to split hairs over the baptismal formula when one reconciles this in the following manner:
Father - Lord
Son - Jesus
Spirit - Christ"

Under the section of "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" it says:

Biblical purposes for being filled with the Holy Spirit point 6:
"Ability to speak with new tongues and cast out devils (Mark 16:15-18, Romans 8:26-27, Matthew 12:28) When we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we have the authority to cast out devils and even the ability to speak with new tongues (Mark 16:17). Even as Jesus cast out demons by the spirit of God, occasionally we too may cast out demons by that same Spirit"

How to recieve a fresh filling of the Holy Spirit
Ask (Luke 11:13)...
Worship (Psalm 100.4)
" Through the laying on of hands (Acts 8:17, acts 9:17-18, Acts 19:6) People have been filled by the Holy Spirit without the laying on of hands, but a common way is through the laying on of hands by other spirit-filled Christians."

Section: Laying on of Hands
Four scriptural purposes for the laying on of hands in the New Testament.
To set people into their ministry (Acts 6:1-6, 13:1-3)
For an impartation of spiritual gifts by the elders (1 Timothy 4:14)
Healing (Mark 16:15-19)
Receiving the Holy Spirit
"In the book of Acts, there are two ways to receive the Holy spirit: 1. Directly by the Lord (Acts 2:1-4) 2. Through the laying on of hands (Acts 8, Acts 9, Acts 19)"

Section: The resurrection of the Dead
There are three resurerections in the New Testament
The resurrection of Jesus
Spiritual resurrection
The resurrection of believers in the new birth (union with Christ in heavenly places). This is a positional resurrection.
The future resurrection of the dead

Section: Four Eschatological Views:
Classical premillenialism
Premillenial Dispensationalism
Amillenialism
Postmillenialism
"Christ returns after the millennial reign through His church on earth. This view is the most optimistic eschatological position because they believe the millennial reign of Christ begins at some time in history before Christ returns. Postmillenialists believe the church will progress in numbers and influence to such an extent that the world will ultimately be Christianized. Although evil will not totally vanish, the church will have asserted an amazingly strong role in society and the world, after which Christ will return. Their emphasis is the victory of Christ through the church in the earth."

The kingdom of God
What should we then do in regards to his coming?
1. Jesus said, "Occupy until I come" (Luke 19:13) All genuine believers are to be engaged in society with a disposition of occupation (Acts 1:5-8) We are not to have "our heads in the clouds" in an unhealthy preoccupation about His coming.

Section: What is the church?
point 3.
The Church is His Family - Christ is Dad - Ephesians 3:6,10,15
In a dysfunctional society where the family life is often less than God's best, God in His goodness has made provision in raising up powerful, yet loving church families, where He "makes a home for the lonely" (Psalms 68.6).

Point 4. The church is His Mature Man - christ is the Example - Ephesians 4:11-16
Point 5. The Church is His Bride - Christ is the Groom.
Point 6. The Church is His Warrior - Christ is our Shield of Victory - Ephesians 6:10-17

Section: The purpose of the church
Point 4: To minister against satan and demonic forces.
Point 5: To Minister to society
The church of the Lord is the most effective standard and dispenser of truth in any society. Without the church, evil would be unrestrained and utter rebellion could manifest. Societies who exclude the church from their public life must be governed through external force or face the consequences of anarchy. The church is God's means of revealing His truth to a needy world.

Section: Our responisibilty to Christ's church
Point 6: Support the leadership of the church. Another basic responsibility of participating in the local church is to appreciate and pray for the church pastor and staff. These people are set apart by God to provide an example for the "flock of God", as well as sound biblical teaching, encouragement and spiritual oversight. Scripture calls us to stand behind these leaders as they serve the church. Many churches fail to peak in their destiny because the churches do not rally behind the leaders and show love and support. This concept should be understood upon entrance to the church, and followed unless the pastors violate Bibilical standards and can no longer be followed.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

helpfulcommentary. I am waiting for the prophesy to come to pass. I would say that EN would be " lucky " if it pass over them and it did not happen to EN.
But as I waited , it look like its coming. looking at the trial, EN has been losing every step of the way. EN has been trying to delay it, as much as possible. And yet, they recently lost on that one. Instead of waiting for two years for the court to made a decision, it took less than a week.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

dust, it looks like the teaching on spiritual authority and spiritual family is also in session 6 (http://www.beaconcity.org/enlifiles/Foundations-SGA.doc) of the revised ENLI. Does anyone have those course notes to see if headship is described in there?

Also, Chapter 7 of the Purple Book sets up a foundation for people to submit to Christ through submitting to leaders, imho. It's very subtle. You have Ephesians 4:11-16 but without the context of other Scriptures stating that believers are to be DIRECTLY connected to Christ, like Colossians 2:19.

Also from the Purple Book:

<font color="aa00aa">Discipleship is about learning to follow Jesus</font> [true]. <font color="aa00aa">Jesus is no longer walking on earth making disciples. He left that task to his followers</font> [partially but not 100% true - see John 14:15-17; John 14:25-26; John 15:26-27; John 16:7-8; also see the example of Paul's fourteen years in exile described in Galatians 1-2. Conclusion: He left that task to the HOLY SPIRIT, not merely to people]. <font color="aa00aa">Therefore, if we are to become disciples, we must be discipled by someone.

Who is discipling you?</font>

[aletheia (aletheia)]

<font color="0000ff">dust, it looks like the teaching on spiritual authority and spiritual family is also in session 6 of the revised ENLI. Does anyone have those course notes to see if headship is described in there? </font>ULYANKEE

Ul - the word "headship" is not listed in session 6 of the ENLI booklet Apostolic Foundations: Spiritual Family used in 2005 (2004 publishing date). However it does say the following:

"Are those in authority under authority?"

"[i]Yet, if we are to experience the blessings of spiritual family it will take both commitment and a biblical understanding of authority (Hebrews 13:17)."

"[i]Simply stated, many times God will use the leaders of our churches to teach us how to forgive, raise our children, treat our spouses or even manage our money."

Peace to you and to all in the New Year,
aletheia

[aletheia (aletheia)]

Ulyankee - I just realized you might be referring to the recently revised ENLI curriculum in the latter part of 2005, so you might want to nix what I posted above.

BTW, if FACTNet shuts down I will not use my name aletheia elsewhere on the internet. I've recently discovered other people on the internet using Aletheia in various spellings...

Thanks to you and to all who have ministered to many, defended the truth of the gospel, and spent many hours researching and posting - all for God's glory.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Titus and Bill_mack,

Thanks for your thoughts. For Q1, I don't remember any teachings of the trinity as time periods. I think the notes related to Q2 are probably more on target.

Some key phrases that I heard surrounding baptism was that we were burying the dead man, that Christ would then live in us. It was said from the pulpit that many people came out of baptism speaking in tongues... although I never witnessed this myself.

There are a few things in the foundation notes that hint at these teachings:

Section: Defining Water Baptism
"Baptism according to Paul was a vicarious experience of the burial of the "body of sin" so that we might "walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:6). As a sacrament of the church, baptism is a means of God's grace to His children so that they might be totally identified with Christ and find victory in their fight of faith."

An example of a child's testimony is included in the foundation notes where after the child's baptism, he says "Since I have been baptized my stomach feels all clean on the inside and I know that Jesus lives in me."

These notes are separate from notes related to the baptism of the holy spirit. It seems as I look through these notes, that there is basic truth about the trinity being three persons but there is also this modality logic. There is also a reference to Jesus as God's Pattern Son. I don't remember Sonship being taught from the pulpit but it was definitely part of the church's inner circle christianeese.

Need to go usher in the new year. Happy New Year all.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

I am not to impressed with Rick Joyner making past prophecies concerning a false controlling apostolic movement coming in the future. Half the people that believed in the restored office of the apostle came from abusive, controlling, sheperding related groups including EN and they have believed in modern apostles for a long time (that is to easy of a call). Reading about Joyner is scary, nonstop visitations with Jesus, Jonah, Abel, Adam, Paul the church reformers...etc. There are so many visitations that it starts to strain a persons credibility, kind of like the Charles and Francis (Happy) Hunter books where there are non stop angelic visits. Rick Joyner saw God the Father and claims that Adam told him all about the power the manifest sons of God would walk in during the last days. In those links provided by Bill, Mr. Joyner rails against those just relying on their minds and scripture. It is not my fault if he put himself into a box. He is claiming that Adam confirmed the post millenial manifest sons of God teaching, where does that leave people like me who disagree?, they end up putting me in a spot where I have to reject them it seems. Am I just suppose to reject what scripture clearly says and hope that Joyner is not lying and his visions are truelly from God? Other choice things Joyner says are:

“Let us understand, the Lord wants us to ascend to heaven; He wants us to sit on the mount of the assembly; He wants us to be raised above the heights of the clouds, and He wants us to be like Him (to have His nature).”71

(did'nt Satan get in trouble for thinking like this? -40/40)


“There is a tendency to continue relating to Him as ‘the MAN from Galilee.’ Jesus is not a man. He was and is Spirit. He took the form of a servant and became a man for a brief time.”72

Obviously this stuff is influenced by oneness doctrine which at times elevates man to divine status (MSOG) and according to how you interpret it their modalist beliefs they either end up rejecting the divinity of Jesus or his humanity. To change the subject, the earlier baptism teaching aid that R. Lewis used that makes a distinction between Jesus and the Christ is a HUGE! deal I can't believe they let that go into print, incredible.

Back on track and last but not least is the people whom Joyner hangs out with. Bob Jones from the Kansas City Prophets fame is Joyners friend. Before anyone listens to Joyner and his visions I think they should read that report or at least the synopsis on the Kansas City Prophets abuses and the integral part Bob Jones and his visions played in that movement (Bill could you post that link? it is a must read). If you give Bob Jones the benefit of the doubt as far as his salvation, never the less would you give him the benefit of the doubt in regards to spiritual gifts after what happened in Kansas City? Joyner does even within just 5 years of the Kansas City fiasco according to Bills links. Also look at the importance of Mike Bickle in the move to restore apostleship today. I think it is kind of ironic that Joyner warns of abuses from apostles but holds to all of the doctrines of the men of the NOLR who founded Joyners theology and promote the idea of apostles walking in unconditional submission to their authority. Rick can't have it both ways.

lc_20, about your comment that these guys are big fish in a little pond, nothing to be afraid of? Hey that might be prophetic I have a small pond with some very big gentle goldfish. Our spirtual pond may have been small but it was filled with barracudas, snakeheads and piranha.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif




(Message edited by 40days40years on January 01, 2006)

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

I am trying to understand the difference between Jesus and Christ in these notes. Looking through them, I can definitely see a distinction now that I did not notice before. Usually RL uses the name Christ: our new life in Christ, Christ's cross, called to Christ, second coming of Christ.. He only mentions Jesus when he is specifically talking about things Jesus said before his death on the cross (red ink) and when he is discussing Jesus's resurrection. Jesus is the "pattern". "Christ is fully man and fully God". "In John 16:7-13, Jesus promised to return to His disciples in the Person of the Holy Spirit". "All believers are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ".... It seems that the distiction comes with the return of Jesus as the Holy Spirit - then referred to as Christ.

40days, Yes - big mean self-serving fish. I am glad I am out of that pond. I have posted my negative social adventures with this group earlier. Now, I am starting to develop an interest in the theological issues. Thankfully, I was taught about the trinity when I was a child so most of this Jesus vs Christ vs holy spirit stuff went over my head. I remember really struggling with the differences between msi teachings of Jesus as God and the teachings of the catholics from my youth that God was our Father and Jesus his Son. I resolved it personally by understanding that God our Father wanted us to see his son as our Lord and savior. But, this was a struggle - especially when I needed to be re-baptised in Jesus name (adult vs infant baptism). Now they have a manditory baptismal class first to make sure everyone understand completely what they are getting into. I am sure members of EN who are reading this will probably think I am unsaved and need to get baptised again after taking the baptismal class... but then again, some thought I was unsaved when I got sick.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Well lc_20 in the past I would have given them the benefit of the doubt but from now on I want Ron and the others to refer to the lamb of God from now on as Jesus Christ of Nazareth ALL THE TIME. No more of this separation of Jesus and the Christ. They are the same.

The whole babtism debate just seems ridiculous because during the book of acts the apostles encountered people who were talking about the baptism of John. The reason why they said baptize in Jesus name is because they did not want them to be baptized with Johns baptism which had passed. Baptism in the name of Jesus is in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is what the baptism of Jesus means. This oneness doctrine is just oh so perinicous because it is the gateway to almost every major heresy in the charismatic movement today.-- Ugggh!

Happy New Year everybody!

[40days40years (40days40years)]

You know I have brought up this before but their teaching on baptism at MCM/MSI/EN has got to be faulty. They teach that when your born again your sin nature dies and that it is removed through baptism. All the leaders from Bob to Rice to Phil to Greg, Leo, Tony have sinned quite regularly after they were baptized. They taught that the sin nature would be gone, buried. If the sin nature was gone than why so much sin? and why were so many hurt? and why did so many fight not to change the system?

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

40/40,

Bob Jones (http://wayofthelordchurch.org/pdf/pdf_20_1.pdf) is a sex pervert like Paul Cain (http://wayofthelordchurch.org/pdf/pdf_21.pdf). Both of these deviates have been viewed as *major* spiritual giants in Charisma magazine as well as by Latter Rain churches worldwide. The most telling historical document that spells out the details is the Ernie Gruen Report on Grace Ministries (http://www.intotruth.org/kcp/kcp-gruen.html) aka the "Kansas City Prophets report. This is a must read. A Maranatha World Leadership Conference is referenced in this report. As you now know, the 2004 Morning Star Int'l/Every Nations World Conference is simply an carry-over of the former Maranatha World Leadership Conferences (MWLC). They have the same MSOG themes of an Elite Joel's Army being raised up by the *new* "apostles and Prophets" along with pep talks on world dominion through:

1) "Marketplace Apostles"
2) Training leaders to enter into key positions in the political and business realm.
3) Prophetic fulfillment of the kabbalah-based MSOG heresy
4) "Davidic Tabernacle" worship
5) Spiritual Warfare in the heavenlies
6) Discipleship/shepherding through accountability partners (mind-control).
7) Other utopian-based heresies and magical rituals designed to infuse the "vision of the apostolic mandate".

Keep in mind that Jack Deere (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/deere.html) led the entire Vineyard Anaheim congregation to curse Ernie Gruen for distributing that report. I am friends with a former Vineyard leader who came out of this NOLR cult who witnessed this. Jack Deere's son died shortly after that. But today, Jack Deere continues to preach and teach NOLR heresy as can be seen in the New Apostolic Reformation video expose' (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/nardvd.html) by Sandy Simpson et al.

--Bill

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Bill,

if a person has repented, I let it go. I do not hold it against them like you do. If i hold their sins upon their heads, thats pride. And I am no better than EN leaders. They do this to their own people.Its also pride against God that I am a better person than God.

If Paul Cain has truly repented, thats between him and God. So is Bob Weiner and Jim Bakker. I may not understand all this NOLR stuff. But at least I know the simplicity of God's Word.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

40days,
You asked: "They taught that the sin nature would be gone, buried. If the sin nature was gone than why so much sin?"
They will never admit to sin. Those that accuse them are "touching God's annointed" and "speaking the lies of Satan" because Satan is the accuser of the brotheren. I have seen, in the face of sin, leaders claiming to be righteous and clean. Twice, I have seen leaders in this group do things wrong and instead of just admitting they did something wrong and saying they were sorry, they try to convince you you did not see or hear what you saw or heard because they are clean and righteous. I can tell you from experience that these guys do have a flesh and they are not as righteous as they claim to be. What I don't understand about this system is that only the leaders become righteous. The average member can get baptised and still get accused of all kinds of issues - including telling the lies of Satan. So, I guess this burying the dead man only works for some and not all.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

EN Leaders will NEVER admit their mistakes. According to Phil Bonasso, if you admit mistakes, it shows your WEAKNESS. And you do not want to show weakness in the church. The people might abuse you.
Thats why,even though when Phil Bonasso Apologizes to the church what his daughter and Tony Fetchel has done, and admitting that there is abuse of kids in the church. He immedietly ordered NOT TO RELEASED THOSE TAPES ( the apology that Phil made to the church) Because he is afraid that it will be USED against him.

[upcase20 (upcase20)]

40 days: You stated, <font color="ff0000">"They teach that when you're born again your sin nature dies and that it is removed through baptism".</font><font color="000000"> I was taught that also. In reality however I thought that it was pure fantasy. That's why I never submitted to their water baptism. Watching the water baptism of a prominant person I even heard one of the leaders joke saying "the water is always 20 degrees hotter when you get out."</font>

[upcase20 (upcase20)]

Ic20: It was scary the way some of the leaders actually believed that once baptised they were free of sin. No they are not as righteous as they claim to be, but the funny thing is that they have so many people believing this.

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

"They taught that the sin nature would be gone, buried."

Just as Rome believes there is a special case of change in the eucharist and wine in communion called TRANSUBSTANTIATION (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp), so many cults believe that baptism is salvific i.e. baptism will save you.


All,

BAPTISMAL REGENERATION (http://www.gospeloutreach.net/bapsal.html)

As Christians, we are commanded to be baptised. But if I were to die in a car crash after I confessed Jesus Christ as savior but never was baptised, those who believe in a sinless state of perfection (http://www.mbrem.com/life/dab-wesl.htm) through immersion -- an old heresy dating back 100's of years -- would say I was on my way to hell.

A well-known traveling evangelist (http://www.chick.com/articles/mechanics.asp) named George "Jed" Smock (http://www.brojed.org/contents.html) who has been a Maranatha supporter almost from its inception also believes in a state of sinless perfection. He deserves an *A* for preaching but an *F* for bad doctrine.

The same is the case with ENC. Many preachers would deserve an *A* for holding youth rallies but they are going to hellfire for sure since they lead youth straight to where they thought they escaped by making Christ their savior. MCM/MSI/ENC and the NOLR is a "bait and switch" occult movement. They leade you to Jesus Christ at first and then just at the point where you are saved and start to participate in biblical discipleship, prayer and bible study, these devilish soul-stealers tell you in a very subtle way that they are the manifested Christ on earth and that salvation comes through no other means than by total and unconditional submission to their non-existant "apostolic authority".

What a religious scheme!!

Really ironic, but God is very serious when it comes to preaching and teaching another gospel, another Christ and another spirit, which Broocks and the rest of the NOLR does.

--Bill

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

2 Peter 2:18-21:

For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

I'm sure that EN is leading people into salvation, just as I am sure that some if not many are then leading people right back into bondage.

The Purple Book no longer teaches the old Maranatha baptismal formula. However, it does lay a foundation for (1) staying in one's church no matter what, since it teaches God sovereignly chooses your spiritual family like He chooses your natural family (2) legalistic tithing (it basically teaches the Law in this regard) (3) submitting to Christ through submission to leaders (4) 100% committment a la Maranatha.

It's very subtle. It's an introductory foundation only. But what might be built upon this foundation? Is it totally the foundation laid by Christ, with Himself as the chief cornerstone? Or if He is the cornerstone of this foundation, are there other things laid in there that are not the teachings of the original foundational apostles, hand-chosen by Jesus Christ?

1 Corinthians 3:11-13:

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

lc_20 you said: So, I guess this burying the dead man only works for some and not all.

I guess so, the super natural powers of their baptism most likely came from somewhere in the oneness camp which teaches you need to be baptized to get into heaven. There are more people out there than you think who call themselves christians and claim they are without sin.

Ginger, Phils attitude where you never aplolgize and never explain comes from the military I bet since his dad was military. Richard Nixon use to say never aplogize, never explain.

I agree that Bill can be pretty tough on folks who have repented I am glad he is not Godhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif but I can see why he is concerned. Many of the people in this new move of God and the founders of it make Tony Fetchel look like an innocent choir boy by comparison. Whether they are now right with God is between them and God I just don't want them establishing new doctrine by the use of visions they say they have seen. These guys like Joyner are deeply involved with the former Kansas City prophets and this is scary stuff even if some have repented of personal sins I am afraid of how and what they think even if some are christian.

Uly, the foundation of that purple book is almost identical to which Joe Smith said in that link Bill posted awhile back. Yes they bring people to Christ but then immedeatly try to be the Holy Spirit and Jesus. At least in Maranatha they kept their beliefs more vague. I think they did this because if they had made them clearer they would have lost members. I think many in Maranatha did not know the beliefs and those who did were secretly ashamed of their beliefs and hid them like you hide a crazy Aunt in the basement. I mean why promote something that most would disagree with and if they were more open they would have to discuss their beliefs in the open and this would cause problems. Number one they would lose the argument and number two a whole lot of normally submissive members would suddenly become a lot more vocal in opposition. Better to keep it vague and tell people to pray, submit and trust God to work it out.

It does appear Lafoon and company are now bringing this stuff out into the light of day much more now. If they had done that when I was in Maranatha I would have left years earlier. I am sure there have been some window dressing reforms but there also appears to have been a distillation of Maranatha into a hire octane concoction, it looks like a lot of the more balanced moderating guys did'nt go along for the MSI/EN ride.

(Message edited by 40days40years on January 02, 2006)

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

40/40,

"I am sure there have been some window dressing reforms but there also appears to have been a distillation of Maranatha into a hire octane concoction, it looks like a lot of the more balanced moderating guys did'nt go along for the MSI/EN ride."

That's because for them, there is so much at stake. They are placing their trust in some ancient prophecies which have a time-table. The corporate deification of Adam to "God" means there must be a universal commitment or their magical act won't work. Never mind that even with ideal circumstances, their quest for transmigration and reincarnation of souls will result in an infilling of demon spirits. Their version of a celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles will result in their bodies becoming the habitation of devils masquerading as the reincarnated souls of ancient Israel.

The time is to wake up and learn the details of their theosophy because if repentance is coupled with a vague confession of what they did and no explanation of *why* they did it, the whole scenario will only repeat itself after time goes by. Forgive upon true heartfelt repentance and detailed explanation of why they did what they did i.e. based upon false cosmological ideas, yes! No detailed explanation of secret theology, then they are still committing sin, transgression and iniquity. Weiner never repented, contrary to what Ginger says, because the theological errors are still being distributed in Weiner's books!

True repentance will result in changes in written publications so the heresies won't be passed on. Why is this so hard for people to grasp? Is behavior modification so important that it overrides what they preach, teach and sell?

What's up with that?

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Bill you said: The corporate deification of Adam to "God" -- Hmmm! the mormons that know their historical doctrine teach that God the Father was Adam if I am not mistaken and that Adam evolved into God by obeying the laws of righteousness this is alot like the manifest sons of God doctrine. How the simple promise of receiving an eternal glorified resurrected body from God can be turned into a promise to become a little God is beyond me.

The mormons believe that you to can do the same thing as Adam and become a god and then fly off to another planet with your wives. Heck according to past posters some EN leaders talked about creating planets, it's insanity! the roots of this thinking have got to be the same. Mormons if I am not mistaken teach that Satan was the spirit brother of Jesus but went bad. What do the hardcore NOLR teach on that subject matter? I shudder to think.

(Message edited by 40days40years on January 03, 2006)

[coppertree (coppertree)]

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Hi All, Catching up.
On the baptism-we were told and then taught, in this act that the old man of sin, and that sin nature was cut away and we got a new nature that never has sinned. From this we thought that we were sinless, if we stayed in correct relationship to God. Which included, as we were also taught" humbling ourselves under the mighty hand of God". This was the leadership, elders, apostles of the group , pastors and prophets. One can see how the error moved through the church.
All this worry about sin and being clean; soon took away one's joy. And can you imagine the pressure and pain of not having that and being a leader trying to produce the Holy Spirit that you once knew and lived with. It is not unlike Saul, going to the witches of Endor after the Spirit left. They were to be pitied. As we were taught the we could hasten the day of the Lord; but we were enslaving each other instead of encouraging and building each other up.

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

coppertree,

Can you offer any comments relating to teachings from Bill Britton or George Warnock? Did you ever hear a sermon mentioning these men?

40/40,

The Lord is so good! You said,

"How the simple promise of receiving an eternal glorified resurrected body from God can be turned into a promise to become a little God is beyond me."

I have been reading some historical accounts of one of the major players that developed the heresy we are looking at. Of course, Joseph Smith tapped into the very same teachings and formed the Latter Day Saints religious scheme. More on point, I discovered the source of the original ADAM-is-GOD heresy. The whole concept stems directly from the Lurian Kabbalah. Here is a few excerpts:
***************************************
Coudert, Alison. Leibniz and the Kabbalah, International Archives for the History of Ideas 142, (Dordrecht/Boston/London: Kluwer Academic Publishers, 1995)p.37.

"Among the Dutch wonderful things concerning religion and philosophy are being published, thanks to the zeal and work of Helmont, who appears to wish to surpass the unusual medical theories of his father with paradoxes based on other evidence. He takes many things from the Jewish Kabbala and the marvelous tales of the chemists. To these the strange opinions of your Quakers and those of Holland are added, as well as certain unusual thoughts of your Henry More and our Christian Knorr and many other famous men, whom he has known for a long time. From these he now puts together a new body of teachings. He has determined that all things are created by the Messiah as the medium between God and his creatures. He reckons astonishingly in terms of chronology that the souls of ancestors will re-enter the bodies of their descendants. He says that the original soul of Adam was taken on by the Messiah. He has other ideas no less unusual than these, which do not disagree with the opinions of a certain shrewd countryman of yours [Robert Fludd], who thinks that the poisonous and corporeal seed of the serpent scattered among us is corrected and destroyed by some irradiations or balm of the body of Christ. These are the fruits of a corrupt free thinking. How difficult it is to hold a middle course between persecution and license... .143"
******************************************
So, you see the theme of the transmigration of souls is the theological work-around to getting the authority of the "apostles and prophets" into the 21st century NOLR (and Mormon) leaders. The hierarchial structure of C. Peter Wagner's New Apostolic Reformation mirrors the theosophical heresy itself. You "die to self" and submit to the "newly restored apostles and prophets" who became such by recieving false prophetic declarations that are supposed to have the same spirit-to-matter formative power that was used to create the world through the Words of God in Genesis i.e. "Let there be..." etc. These "little Christs" then perform lying signs and wonders by the power of Lucifer and repackage the whole scheme with Christianized wrappings. You pull out you wallet during the offering and actually pay for your own destruction as you are now a participant in sin.

Mat 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It's no wonder Bruce Harpel brutally excommunicated me and defrauded me of $5000.00. He knew I was catching on to his illegal activities which are the result of his unscriptural beliefs. He knew that all the evidence against him could be seen by anyone with even half a brain! He knew that he was so deep in this heretical movement, especially in the inner core group that he simply could not afford to have an independant thinker in the group who might discover that the 1982-84 Ad Hoc Committee Investigators missed. Harpel as well as the rest of these Rosicrucians are in bigtime trouble with God just like their compatriots like John Wimber (deceased in 1997), Mike Bickle, Richard Joyner, Wilfred Hamon, C. Peter Wagner (who with all the scholarly tools at his disposal should have known better than to be entangled with this witchcraft and sorcery!) and all the rest of the NOLR/NAR.

Is this movement a "New Thing"??? To those who don't have a clue as to its historical origins, yes! To those who can go to their nearest university library or even order off-the-shelf scholarly books on the subject, no!

But even though reading and understanding the historical roots would be the way for people to escape the spiritual magnetism that lures them into such a religious scheme, many would rather allow themselves to be used in these human alchemystical/theosophical experiments because like high school students, they don't want to be left out of the action! People long to be upbeat and fashionable and it is this formula i.e. to make heresy appear posh and avante garde that the NOLR leaders have their success in suckering millions of people and millions of dollars into their hell-bound vortex.

More Later

[helpfulcommentary (helpfulcommentary)]

I'm concerned for you Bill Mack. Although some of the things you cite are true, some, such as the timing of the death of Jack Deere's son are not, and they are pieced together to form a picture which is innaccurate, and misleading to others who come to this board looking for answers or help.

Furthermore, it appears that you do not have any concern with labeling others, and such as calling EN a gate to hell in another posting, and broadly labeling large sections of Charismatic movement as heretical.

Jesus says very clearly "For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you"
We should hold out hope for repentance of all men until they draw their last breath.

Jesus loved even his enemies. Can you honestly say that you love these people?

[coppertree (coppertree)]

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HI helpful, Thank you for your note here; my heart breaks for them as I was there once. The pressure to be in that place, misled and confused, and hurt also by those above us in the group. I pray for them to be free; there is a wonderful life after. We can walk in the newness of that every day by His grace.}

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

helpfulcommentary,

"Can you honestly say that you love these people?"

That's the reason I starting this discussion group. I simply could not walk away knowing that the same thing that happened to me would surely happen to other high school and college students who wouldn't stand a chance against occult tactics and false doctrines that are so refined and tweaked to appear as orthodox Christianity.

Prov 27:5 "Open rebuke is better than secret love."

I'm happy that you're concerned. I am greatly concerned as well. When I preach to crowds, I have the very same opposition:

1) You aren't loving!
2) You shouldn't judge (http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/Judging.html)others
3) You should show more love
4) You aren't preaching in a spirit of love
5) etc.

One man plants. Another waters, but it is God that causes the increase.

Ezek 3:18-19
When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

My research and personal experience tells me that I am dealing with an extremely wicked mind-control occult movement that has cause one college student to castrate himself, many to have chemical brain disorders, there are many testimonies of suicide attempts, at least one mysterious death in Canada, TV News reports on Maranatha as a "cult" that uses mind-control, countless years of students lives stolen because of time needed to recover just a basic existence, etc. etc.

Sorry we couldn't all just go out for pizza and shoot the breeze on a hot summer night, but I am contending for souls here, OK? It's taking at least 6 years off my life and a good 4 years of recovery just to hold a normal conversation. I am doing the best I can under the god awful circumstances I've ever encountered at any time. I'm glad you have a life. If Christians and Christian leaders had been doing their job all along, this diabolical occult movement never would have seen the light of day. The other possibility that can be backed up with scripture is that God Himself is using this occult trap to judge those who call themselves Christians but demonstrate that they do not love the truth. Want scripture for these claims? Read on:

II Thess 2:9-12
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So, who's doing the damning here and why? It's God Himself!!!

Fear God
Trust Jesus!

[dust (dust)]

I am still sorting a lot of what Bill Mack has written, but I am thankful for what he does. He got my attention with issues I really knew nothiing about and it has motivated to do my homework, especially in choosing another church body.

People have always been unhappy with the messenger.

Thanks, BIll, for forcing me to educate myself, although it's a bit much. I am seeing some of this dominion thing spill out into other ministries.

Saints, this is a SPIIRT, he is revealing. Don't think flesh and blood here....it's a spirit that has been operating a long time.
Same spirit that took Jesus to the top of the mountain to show Him what He could have. It's amazing that Satan would even have the nerve (to think there was a chance) that Jesus would be tempted to worldly, kingly leadership. But, this is the nature of "humanity" isn't it.

So while you may not like what Bill is saying, please take the time to investigate for yourself, educate yourself and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal TRUTH.

Thanks again Bill for taking a very difficult stand. God has you obsessed with this for a reason....It takes extremes to fight extremes.

Tragedy happens when good men do nothing.......

[dust (dust)]

Saints
Churches have become distorted as groups who not only have the gospel as their platform, but other issues have become the platform. It seems that what the church is doing is fighting the politics and morals of the lost!

But, the job of the church is to DEFEND and WITNESS THE GOSPEL....not go on the attack to sinners. Sinners sin.

And, we aren't the LIGHT, when we shine a light on their sin. We are a light, when we shine a light on our SAVIOR, and we portray him, and we extend a LOVING hand and demeanor to those in sin. (who don't know anything). We don't witness mind to mind by forcing people to bear fruit who don't have a SAVIOR. Jesus did NOT do this. And, We are not bearing fruit doing this.
The sins we are to point out are the sins INSIDE the church.

When we get political, we preach a different gospel. We JUDGE.
And, I don't care who you are out there or how many degrees you may have, you cannot show any qualifying scriptures for this behavior.

The church shows Contempt instead of Compassion.
And contempt has never won a soul for Christ.

Dust

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Titus I do know that Joe Smith would talk about how committed communists were to their cause and he of course does not approve of communism but he was admirable of their commitment. He brought up stories of communists telling christians how committed they were to their cause and how the christians could not compare in their levels of commitment and would lose because of it. There was also a foreign ministry that wanted to join Maranatha and Joe was not sure if they should join us because he thought they were far more gung ho and commited to the gospel and being christian than us. You can see that he is impressed with the arm of the flesh and human will.

Sorry I don't buy the Joyner pioneer analogy to the commie pioneer groups. The reason is because Joyner is highlighting American pioneers and those pioneers are historically independant on their own and striking out to have their own farm and freedom and the right to worship God as they see fit. A communist pioneer is not about that he is about kissing the party's behind. American pioneers in history are about as far away from communism as you can get in their attitudes. Same word "pioneer" two differant meanings.