Maranatha MSI EN etc

[beenthere_donethat (beenthere_donethat)]

New poster here. I have been reading this blog for a few weeks and finally decided to post.

I want to briefly introduce myself here prior to "jumping in" on any specific thread.

I am a former Maranatha, MSI, EN church member and attended an EN church up until last summer (hence the handle "beenthere_donethat"). Much of the stuff discussed regarding the misappropriation of money and the other problems with the west coast ministry are news to me, yet not surprising either.

I prefer to remain anonymous since my wife and I counsel people who are recovering from abusive relationships and frequently run across former Maranatha/EN folks. I prefer to not create the potential for any of our counseling to get subverted by M/EN loyalists.

I am NOT a former M/EN leader or staff member but am very close to many who were. I was preparing to go on staff with Maranatha just prior to it dissolving in '89. Only since 1999 did I come back to attending a Morningstar church.

If I have specific knowledge that will clarify a specific question regarding M/EN leaders I will share that. Mostly I am concerned with promoting truth and healing. I am not concerned with who gets indicted or a "justly deserved" commupence.

Most of my posts here will be from the "60,000 ft" level, applying what I know and have experienced of controlling/abusive relationships.

All in all the core problem you are deling with in M/EN and other "cultish" ministries is shame-based religion. Specific erroneous doctrines are not necessarily the core issues that need to be addressed; they are usually the manifestations of shame-based thinking. If you deal with the issue of shame with truth then the false-doctrine falls by the wayside.

What we have found is that suseptability to abusive religion/relationships is generally developed by growing up in a shame-based household where fundamental emotional and psychological needs are never met and/or are grossly distorted.

The Good News is that being a victim of abuse does not need to be a "death sentence" on having a good, fulfilling, whole life in God and His blessing of marriage, family, and sincere friends.

That's all for now.

[thunderbug (thunderbug)]

Hi Beenthere!
I once watched a video of a seminar by Canadian Christian psychiatrist Dr. Grant Mullen abt shamed based families and shamed based churches. I thought he described both my family and former EN church pretty well. Glad we have someone here knowledgeable on the subject because many of us are in or starting the post-EN recovery process and it would be a shame to fall into those abusive relationships again becasue of failure to address the root of the problem. Thanks for joining the discussion - eager to hear your input.

[beenthere_donethat (beenthere_donethat)]

Hope I can provide some help. I know folks from the Maranatha days who are still bitter about losing "years of their life" to supporting a sham. The ones hanging onto the bitterness still have not dealt with the cycle of shame in their upbringing, consequently Maranatha becomes the perpetual dumping ground for their grief.

Maranatha is not free of responsibility for its errors of course, but it is rarely the whole story either. I know in my own life I did not get over my Maranatha experience until I finally came to terms with the fact that I was emotionally neglected for 18 years in my parents home. My parents aren't bad people, they tried to do their best, but were themselves emotionally crippled individuals. Only then did I put all the pieces together and really understand what my Maranatha experience was about and release the pain and grief.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Beenthere, first off welcome I think it is great to have a counselor here. I hate to disagree with your very first post but on a practical level this ministry is PRIDE based, the elitism, entitlement...etc. You can get rid of the shame control but the doctrines that say you have a destiny to be an elite marine for God won't go away. That is pride and they appeal to peoples pride to motivate them and control them. The shame is also used so those in charge can control their kingdom. The quest for purity and the use of sex to shame is just to easy of a club not to use.

If somebody points fingers at a leaders abuse or the rotten system, it is just to easy to say: were not perfect but what about you and your own sins?, your rebellion, your lack of committment not wanting to pay the price? Your questionioning God ordained authority instead of praying and submitting to it and trusting God to work it out. Hey bud your the problem.

I will say there is a profound insecurity and shame in the historical roots of Maranatha and the entire pentecostal movement. The movement was created by very poor, uneducated people, insecure people. Many pentecostals were rejected by the established christians as being poor wack jobs. Hence the movement has been hostile towards denominationalism that rejected them and you see it in some of their doctrines. I bet a lot of the NOLR manifest sons of God elitist stuff came from the shame of the original founders who were compensating for the shame of their poverty and being nobodies in the eyes of the world. My guess is their insecurity and shame caused them to listen to the devil a little to much at times, afterall who does not want to hear your special the "elite". People are special in the eyes of God though, that devil is crafty.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Also beenthere don't you think the bitterness of many comes from the fact that people got trapped for years in a system with so many wrong things about it? You really could not just leave without walking out on God and your destiny. So there is fear of God there, especially after knowing you encountered the presence of God in a powerful way. People walked into a trap and had the door shut on them and they did not agree to that, hence bitterness. I believe it was Steve Hassan who addressed this when he asked if you had true freedom to choose without fear of offending God, would you have freely chosen to stay?

[beenthere_donethat (beenthere_donethat)]

No problem, you won't be the first person who has disagreed with me.

But I would offer this perspective. PRIDE and SHAME are the proverbial "heads and tails" of the same coin.

You can't have one without the other. In shame-based families there is a very typical pattern of roles different family members are assigned to. There is a "sacred cow", a "golden boy", an "enabeler", and a "scapegoat".

The "sacred cow" is the sin (false god/idol) that no one wants to confront or identify and may be embodied in a person or family secret(i.e. an alcoholic, a pedophile, a rageaholic etc.)

The "golden boy" is typically a first born child who is responsible to be an over-achiever and put a good face on the family. The family will typically revolve around the accomplishments of this person. This person gets way with murder, never held accountable.

The "enabler" is simply "the man/woman behind the curtain" who keeps up the ruse, assigns and enforces the roles of each member and knows the dangers of allowing the ruse to fall apart.

Finally "the scapegoat" is the person(s) who is the dumping ground for everyone's garbage. The hub of the family's "problems". The one who absorbs and represents the family's burden that actually come from the sacred cow and the sins of the golden boy. Is typically the object of abuse.

The point to get at is ALL of this dynamic revloves around shame addiction, not pride. Pride is a cover for shame. Its the "fig leave" covering for a person's "nakedness of substance".

I would assert that if you truely get rid of shame, the pride cannot stand. Addressing only the issue of pride does not get to the root, it only affords the chance to create a new and improved form of pride that looks better than the old one.

Elitism is a false antedote for shame. It offers relief from shame but does not really provide it. It only offers a "sanctuary" from real accountability like opium to someone racked with the pain of a terminal cancer. Those who make it to the elitist inner circle no longer have to be scapegoats, they get to be golden boys and sacred cows who are now allowed to bully the scapegoats.

Those who are elitist are in fact slaves of their own shame with a desperate need to keep up the facade.

A person who is free from shame will not be seduced by pride and elitist ideology.

(Message edited by beenthere_donethat on February 13, 2006)

[40days40years (40days40years)]

beenthere I did come from a dysfunctional home myself that is only partially shame based according to your criteria. I am kind of having a hard time following and connecting all the dots. You said: A person who is free from shame will not be seduced by pride and elitist ideology Hmmm! what about Satan he had pride before shame and I bet his only shame is in losing if he has shame.

Personally I like to anaylize the problems of Maranatha/MSI/EN through the lens of institutionalized Narcississtic Personality Disorder. (see thread: I still feel guilty for leaving) Others here put most the blame on the NOLR.

How about this? Bob W and the system is the sacred cow, Rice is the golden boy, the enablers are the more balanced leaders and members in EN and the scape goat is Leo and company. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif
I will think about your theory but can't shame lead to repentance which leads to salvation? Would'nt a little shame hear be a good tonic for the pride?

[john_r_jones (john_r_jones)]

BTDT,
will we be free to move about the cabin?
John

[beenthere_donethat (beenthere_donethat)]

John, I think you are dead on with the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). I would contend that in the model of a dysfunctional family I described, the Sacred Cow and the Golden Boy are typically pathological narcissists. As you said, the system itself can be the Sacred Cow. If you look at the pathology of NPD, it is very common to find that the narcissist was abused. That background can be as violent as that of Hitler or Hussein or it can be as sublime as growing up in an ivory tower with little nurturing input from ones parents. Emotional neglect is a form of abuse.

As for Satan, well he is an unredeemable angelic being. We are talking about fallen humans who still have hope for healing and redemption.

On shame yes it would be good for them feel shame. Shame is a form of pain. Pain is a good thing because it is a signal that warns of an injury or something that is potentially harmful.

However, it is nothing less than horrific to create and maintain a set of circumstances that keep a person in perpetual shame. That is exactly what the dysfunctional family does. Everyone in the model is in perpetual pain and is trying to get relief by passing it off onto the scapegoat in episodes of abuse. The Golden boy is abused as well but has a “get out of jail free card” by being an achiever that makes the family look good.

This is what shaming religion does. A system is crafted where you have no hope but to fall short of the standards achievement, consequently feeling terrible, thus working harder in the system to try to get free. How do you get free? Graduate to being an Enabler (a VLI approved servant and sycophant of the Golden Boys) who enforces the Scapegoat role in the plebes of the system (by leading a cell group), or become a Golden Boy yourself (i.e. a campus minister, a professional athlete, etc.).

The No Dating policy in my observation is one of the primary tools used to keep people in shame. Any single person under 30 is going have a daily battle with wanting to date some cute guy or girl and feel like a disappointing failure for it. And you have no hope of getting a sanction from the pastor to “court” that cute guy or girl unless you both have at least become Enablers/enforcers in the system. Pretty slick system, eh.

(Message edited by beenthere_donethat on February 13, 2006)

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

beenthere_donethat,

So, are you simply following in the footsteps of Maranatha NOLR David Houston "Inner Healing" and making those, who have solidly discovered the false theology that casued the leaders to use witchraft and sorcery, to become "psychological victims" that "need help" thereby discrediting and clouding their heretical doctrines?

The Soviets used the same tactics. Those who had the evidence against the doctrines of communism were pronounced "mad" or "insane" and were sent to "mental hospitals".

What are your credentials that would have you do online psychological counseling? Where are you today with the doctrines you were taught in Maranatha? Have you identified and then systematically exposed them, or are you deliberately choosing to be vague and just say "they were wrong"????

Jesus did say, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."

What is "Truth" to you at this point? Success with your next counseling session? If you stroke the terrified and abused cat and get it to purr, is your mission accomplished?

If you do use truth aka the BIBLE, how do you use it?

[beenthere_donethat (beenthere_donethat)]

Mack, what in the world are you talking about?

You make no sense.

[j2theperson (j2theperson)]

***This is what shaming religion does. A system is crafted where you have no hope but to fall short of the standards achievement, consequently feeling terrible, thus working harder in the system to try to get free. How do you get free?***

How do you get free? I grew up in the Church and no matter what church I attend I am neglected and made to feel guilty because I am very shy. I am basically told that it's my fault I'm not happy and am not close to God because I don't try hard enough to make myself noticed. Christians seem to think that I have a spirit of fear or something simply because I'm shy. But shyness is a personality trait not some sort of defect that I can (or should) just get over. I would like to be accepted and loved for who I am. I don't want to have to become an outgoing go-gettem person before Christians accept and love me.

I hate the church. I don't particularly love God either--not because I don't want to, but because I can't love a person I don't know. He never talks to me, and no Christian has ever taken the time to help me be learn how to hear Him. They just tell me I need to read my Bible more (as if I haven't already read my Bible through more times than a majority of American Christians)

I joined EN because at first it looked like a church that actually cared about individuals and wouldn't overlook me like my former church had. But, in the end, it turned out that they just wanted to use me.

But, I can't say that they're so much worse than any other church I've attended. I have been overlooked and unhelped anywhere I go. Why do Christians suck so much? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif

[40days40years (40days40years)]

been there, a lot of new agers have religions built around not walking in shame or guilt and that has not freed them from doctrinal error in fact their error gets worse most of the time. A yogi walking without shame does not lose the error of his beliefs. Yes I agree that Jesus does not want us to walk in shame though but in forgiveness.

j2 I suppose you need to not be ashamed of yourself. Even if you feel shame you need to reject it and say Jesus loves me and forgives me and views me as special, that is the way it is going to be I will rely on him to help me with problems or sin I can't handle. His burden is light, you got to ask yourself is this burden I am carrying light? I think we need to learn to laugh at ourselves like John Jones said and even appreciate some of our own idiocyncracies.

I think the Christian world can be tough at times, many mixed messages. Don't judge but then it seems you end up having to judge everything, doctrine, inappropriate behaviour, your self. I don't have all the answers but I know that not confronting the bad in EN is wrong but how do you not do that without judging? You should try to be balanced but it is confusing at times and the funny thing is that Maranatha/MSI in the old days was succesful because it was unbalanced. Go figure.

[john_r_jones (john_r_jones)]

J2,
I've had a title rolling around in my head for a opinion peice entitled "Church; a helluva place to be a Christian." Philip Yancey is a contemporary author I'd refer you to with titles like "Church, Why Bother" and "Soul Survivor, how my faith survived the church." I too had hoped that church would be a place of healing and it has been, sometimes from the wounds inflicted on me by that self-same church. I can't give you a trite answer here I would commend you frankly for your honesty. I would say confidently God doesn't blanch at honesty, I've had some choice words with Him over how some of His kids treated me.

Finally, a story: Jesus was weary from the press of the crowds and travel-walking for miles. Some parents brought Jesus their children and asked Him to bles them. The disciples sought to shoo them away, "Can't you see he's tired?" Jesus with a look silenced His handlers and beckoned the children to come. He took each one individually and blessed them and prayed for them. No group hugs here, no show of official magnanimity but genuine affection for kids. It must be understood that in the culture of the time kids were considered insignificant in the extreme. As soon as a child could begin to do any sort of work they had to begin to earn their keep to be productive. Jesus as the human face of God continually turned the proprieties of His culture upsidedown giving preference to the nobodies.

I know from experience that at times when I feel at loose ends spiritually and alone, He is near. He gives grace to the humble, and the downcast, to those who have deemed themselves unworthy He seeks out. Humble as in those who say "I'm not worth a S---" not those who piously call themselves "umble" with the reverent upcast eyes of a constipated confessor. By the way the reason why some may not have had the time to teach you to hear is because they don't either.
John

(Message edited by john r. jones on February 14, 2006)

[beenthere_donethat (beenthere_donethat)]

I never said that false teaching and doctrine in M/EN should not be addressed. Heck I can write volumes on the various heresies taught there. The whole "Spiritual DNA" diatribe is one of the most notable. It is a re-manifestation of the whole "I am of Paul, I am of Apollos" heresy that Paul had to address in Corinth.

Fall for it twice? Hardly, after Maranatha I spent the next ten years with a church doing ministry with the homeless, drug addicts and alcoholics. I took people litterally off the street and brought them into my home. It was sitting in front of a homeless man, an alcoholic war veteran who was obviously still emotionally distraught over his experiences in Vietnam that I first really saw my own poverty of values and how Marantha had in fact left me utterly powerless and mostly at a complete loss for how to help this man who Jesus would likely have been drawn to first over a multi-millionaire NFL star. This man was not in need of a good dose of doctrine that he probaly did not have the capacity to understand. Thats all he had been offered by countless Christian ministers over the years. He needed love and friendship and a place where he would not be dismissed or looked on with "polite disgust".

Ten years later I moved to anothe city and ran into some old Marantha folks who REALLY wnated me to come to a Morningstar church. I at first did not want to have anything to do with it. They went on and on about how everything had changed and everybody had really corrected the old mistakes. I figured give em a shot. ON the surface it DOES look and sound like everything is on track. At the time I was looking at seminaries to go to to work on a MDiv. Circumstances were such I was not going to have the time without quiting my my job and if I quit my job I would not be able to afford it. Someone showed me VLI. I checked it out and it looked prtty good. It was just basically traditional reformed theology probably taken straight from RTS. The problem is these guys know what to say in an official capacity but behind the scenes don't practice what they teach.

(Message edited by beenthere_donethat on February 15, 2006)

[beenthere_donethat (beenthere_donethat)]

I never officially joined the church but stayed on the periphery watching and listening. On a given day they can preach good sound teaching (depending on who's preaching that day). People were always pressing me to get into a cell group, get "pulgged in" etc, but I just politely declined. It was actually the beginning of the Spiritual DNA talk where I saw the overt mainfestation of the OLD Maranatha and I made my exit. I maintained connections to some of the people because they were friends but most of them have since left as well. Most recently I counseled a guy who was about to go into full time ministry with them. I didn't blast him with doctrine. I walked him through some real simple Biblical basics for hearing from God on his own, got him thinking for himself and hearing God for himself and voila he realized he was being subtly pushed into it by others and that God was actually calling him to continue pursuing his field of study where he already had an advanced degree from one of the top Universities in the country.

If I jump out and start blasting people about heresy I'll get blackballed and shut out from being able to talk to people still there. Every week or two I talk to or hear from someone who has left or is thinking about leaving.

Bad doctrine and heresy is a chain that traps people. Some feel you have to go in with a sword or a hammer and smash it. The problem is, for the indoctrinated person it doesn't look like a chain, it looks like a lifeline and in one sense it is because they are so personally damaged they don't know how to live or think without it. A direct assault on the doctrine will likely be perceived as a personal attack and they will cling to it more tightly. But if you feed and nurture that person and demonstrate the love of God, they begin to come to their senses and see the chain for what it is. THEN you can address the heresy with truth and they glady let go of it. I have found this to be a most effective means of helping people get delivered.

Cultist are the ones who rant about the superiority of their doctrine over eveoryone else's and thats ALL they ever want talk about. Ask them to give a cup of water to a thirsty soul and they don't have time for it.



(Message edited by beenthere_donethat on February 15, 2006)