Question for the active participants in the EN Ministry Frenzy

[playstation (playstation)]

Do you guys follow Christ? Do you belong to a family of God aka the Church, or are you a lone ranger christian yourself?
Church is never perfect and all of us are liars. We've exposed EN of its fallacies, now lets build it up. Lets build up God's kingdom and remove our stains from our minds.

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

I agree with your desire to see reform, true repentence and Christ being the only head of His Church.

Bear in mind many people here are at different stages of healing, recovery and church. Some are very scarred and others are very healthy and helpful in adjusting our different attitudes. Please do not give up on helping, challenging and forgiving your fellow believers.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Playstation,
I know several people who after being in MSI/EN leadership will most likely never have anything to do with organized religion again. To be honest, I may go to hear the word and have fellowship, but I would never pledge a covenant relationship with any denomination or religious organization again. So, based on your thinking, I guess that would make me a lone ranger for not having a "covering". I honestly don't have enough years left in my life to risk another experience like the one I had in EN. Also, having someone expose your sin is not the same thing as repenting of that sin. If a child molester is exposed, do you trust them to be alone with your daughter? Do you support them and help them continue in a career where they work with children if you have no evidence of repentance or change? In my mind, building up EN is not the same thing as building God's kingdom. Is that a stain on my mind or is that discernment? Only God knows the answer to that. I can understand you thinking as I thought like that for many years. But, as I supported the organization and hoped for change, I was dissapointed. It was just the same issues over and over again.

[ontheroad (ontheroad)]

Playstation,

I no longer believe in the idea of "covering", absolutely submission to, or covenant with a church or church leadership, so that has changed. But I am now an active member in a Lutheran church, which I joined just a few months after leaving my other church. My whole experience in my former church left me a hurting, confused, disillusioned wreck. So I am taking my time in getting involved in different ministry aspects. I don't want to rush it.

You said, <font color="0077aa">"We've exposed EN of its fallacies, now lets build it up."</font>

I agree with what LC wrote that I don't equate building up EN with building up God's kingdom. And honestly, given EN's long history (including current events), I don't know that it is salvageable as an organization as it currently operates. It needs a major reconstruction from the foundation up, beginning with the leadership. As it currently exists, "building it up" would be building on top of a faulty foundation.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Playstation, After I have left MSI/EN. My last church is Gary Senna, after being burned by that church, I have now joined Apostle Cannistraci church. The way it operates is the exact opposite of MSI/EN. Its more like Steve Murrell church, so it feels like home again.

[aletheia (aletheia)]

playstation - <font color="0000ff">"do you guys follow Christ?"

</font>You betcha (for many years). Though I was burned in an abusive shepherding situation many years ago, which took a whole year of healing in my life, I never stopped following Christ. He is my life and Lord, with or without MSI/EN.

Actually I was surprised that it took me a whole year in MSI/EN to discover the Maranatha cultic history and some of the theological aberrations and covert leadership problems. It took a revelation from the Holy Spirit, discerning error in some of the ENLI teaching, then discovering this FACTNet board and subsequently other resourceful websites to finally put the pieces of this puzzle together.

<font color="0000ff">"Do you belong to a family of God aka the Church?"</font>

Anyone who is a follower of Christ is part of the Body of Christ - we are the Church. Yes, we must not forsake assembling together and should be in fellowship, serving and worshipping together with other believers, but only the Holy Spirit brings true covenant relationships. There are times in one's Christian walk when the Holy Spirit draws us away to Himself, away from the corporate worship and meetings to a deepening desert/wilderness experience. It can be very beneficial spiritually.

I left MSI/EN recently and have found a "rest stop" (church), a way station en route to wherever the Lord is leading. Thank God, I have close Christian friends outside of MSI/EN in this city and around the country to fellowship and minister with. This FACTNet board has been a source of fellowship for me, too - a great blessing.

May the Lord direct you, too, playstation!

peace,
aletheia

[upcase20 (upcase20)]

IC20: That's a shame. I know after I left Maranatha/MSI/EN I'd never have anything to do with organized religion. I even went to a couple of other churches after I left. Just too many bad memories.

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

<font color="119911">playstation--

Some of us (like me) are healthily serving God in very good Every Nation churches. There is a place in the Christian life for building corporately but there is no place for unwavering obedience to anyone but Jesus.

The church I have attended for the past 14 years is the same one ginger criticized above. Therefore I feel obligated to say that, although she left hurt, I disagree with her on where the blame for that lies and remain unconvinced that there was much wrong in how her particular situation was handled by the church leadership. That's my opinion, of course, and I will not go into any details because that would not be fair to ginger or any of the other parties involved. But I do have a different opinion.

You may want to read some of my other posts to hear some more opinions of EN on this site that appear to be the minority view. Off forum, you may email me at thecymbrogi (at symbol) thecymbrogi.com and we can email/talk if you so choose--

--SB</font>

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

thecymbrogi

I am not quite sure what your agenda is? You claim to come from a place of truth etc. but you also claim to be able to shoot down Ginger's arguement without any eveidence. If you are coming from her former church from a place of leadership then surely you will be biased?

What is your real opinion of EN and why are you here really? You keep on asking people to contact you off board? Are you trying not a bit too hard?

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

<font color="119911">speakword--

I recently posted my thoughts on EN all together in one post, within the past week; find that and that should answer your question as to what my "real opinion" of EN is. I've stated it often enough.

<font color="000000">"Off board posts"</font>--some people would rather ask a direct question or speak to me on the phone. I don't hide behind the cloak of anonymity and instead make myself available to those who want a different perspective.

<font color="000000">"Trying … too hard"</font>--I really want to quit posting on the board. I don't have a release in my spirit yet, though. I'm fighting God a bit on this, and perhaps my wife on the other end. Perhaps reruns of "Leave it to Beaver" would be a better use of my time, but my spirit is telling me to stay a bit longer (ugh!). Perhaps I am trying too hard because too few are trying at all, even though so many read this site.

<font color="000000">"ginger's arguement "</font>--it should be enough that I say I disagree with who is at fault in ginger's case. My reasons for not elaborating were obvious but, if not, to make it crystal clear why I don't say more, I am not going to further contribute to the hurt of several other individuals (especially ginger) by discussing it publicly. It would make no difference anyway. You will either believe her or me or both or neither. I am not on this board to convince you or anyone else of anything. I only seek to understand and be understood and rely on the HS in each person to reveal the truth to them.

<font color="000000">"biased"</font>--absolutely. I have been at the church that ginger has never been a member of for 14 years. She visited the church on occasion and had some disagreements that hurt her. Then she left. I love her and understand how she was hurt, but disagree with her perceptions of how and why those things happened as well as the motivations behind them. This may sound a bit harsh, and perhaps it is, but believe whatever you want about the situation: it won't hurt me or my church one bit, but may only hurt you. I am confident that my bias has not prevented me from forming the correct opinion on the matter. In your shoes, I would examine your own bias toward me.

--SB</font>

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

SB,

Granted, I am biased. And I agree, you do not have resolution as to what to say and do here and your role is uncompleted. I sense you may very well play a more constructive part and therefore welcome your continued participation. It may take tiem for people to really open up in the way that you want and then again perhaps God has something for you to teach us and us you.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

thecymbrogi , whats the difference between MSI/EN and Maranatha. Can you elaborate ?

Also if MaryAnn did exactly the same thing in Steve Murrell church, she would have been rebuke by the leaders. Being a religious police is unacceptable in Steve Murrell's church or even in my current church.

(Message edited by ginger1 on September 30, 2005)

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

<font color="119911">Speakword--

Thanks. My participation comes at a heavy price to me. So thank you, again. My prayer is that if anything I say is of God, the HS in each person will testify to it and that, if it is not of God, the HS and others (like you) will publicly reveal it for the rubbish it is.


Ginger:

Re: Maranatha vs. MSI/EN, there are many reasons why I have concluded differently than others that they are separate ministries and organizations (spiritually and physically). At a high level, among my reasons are differences in corporate structure, corporate leadership, corporate accountability, and corporate execution of strategy. My opinion is mine and I am confident I have arrived at it soundly. I equally understand that others disagree with me and recognize some of the assumptions they have made to get there (I've made mine to get to where I am). Time will tell who may have misplaced their confidence so let's all watch what happens in the next eight to twelve months. Perhaps I'll be wrong, perhaps others will be instead. If I believe I am wrong, I have no difficulty saying so.

Re: your experiences at my church: First of all, thank you for the dialogues we have shared via emails in the past. We have both articulated our positions to each other, not to convince the other, but to see the other's view. I know that you have your view and I do not attempt to convince you otherwise. I recognize that you were on the receiving side of someone else's execution of their authority and how that can hurt even when we believe it was meted upon us justly (which you do not believe, thereby magnifying your hurt). You and I disagree whether that authority was executed justly or not but, as I've said before, I refuse to go into any details publicly as to why I have different conclusions than you.

REGARDLESS of whether you are right or wrong, you are in a bit of a conundrum on the forgiveness side of God's economy. You will need to forgive (if you haven't already) all those you believe (rightly or wrongly) have wronged you or risk sliding down the slippery slope of bitterness. For me, I know what it is like to be wronged justly and unjustly; therefore, as a spiritual sibling of yours, I encourage you not to fall into any of the traps of bitterness like others have before. What happened to you at our church is not worth losing any sleep or emotion over: if what happened to you was wrong, God will correct it, and if what happened to you was right, you will only be kicking against the goads.

I love you ginger and, even though we disagree in this matter, I have asked for God's healing and wisdom for all of us in this situation.

--SB</font>

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Cymbrogi

We all have our prejudices. Apologies for not knowing you well enough to comment fully on where you are coming from. Apologies for any judgmentalism on my part as well. We need to learn to talk to one another, hey?

Short People got no reason
Short People got no reason
Short People got no reason
To live

They got little hands
And little eyes
And they walk around
Tellin' great big lies
They got little noses
And tiny little teeth
They wear platform shoes
On their nasty little feet

Well, I don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
Round here

Short People are just the same
As you and I
(A Fool Such As I)
All men are brothers
Until the day they die
(It's A Wonderful World)

Short People got nobody
Short People got nobody
Short People got nobody
To love

They got little baby legs
And they stand so low
You got to pick 'em up
Just to say hello
They got little cars
That got beep, beep, beep
They got little voices
Goin' peep, peep, peep
They got grubby little fingers
And dirty little minds
They're gonna get you every time
Well, I don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
'Round here

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

<font color="119911">I guess I ought to admit it--I love that song, speakword! thanks for the humor!!

(now I have that song going through my head)

--SB</font>

[philiprosenthal]

With regard to the question at the top, I personally moved immediately to a new church. Nevertheless, I am aware of a lot of other people including leaders who have been treated so abusively by His People Ministries leaders (by former friends of mine in leadership) that they (they abused) have lost confidence in church - and attend nowhere. I am afraid these abusers fail to realise the spiritual damage they are doing - and think somehow they are serving God. I hope they will read this site and come to repentance. My advice to anyone who plans on challenging His People or EveryNation leaders is to first research another church to go to if things get too unpleasant. Then you have somewhere to go immediately. Otherwise it seems when people lose faith in their current church, they get spiritually disorientated - and don't know what to do. My advice to you if you are on Factnet and in this category is that His People / EveryNation leaders may have messed up a part of your spiritual and social life - but don't let them mess up the rest of your spiritual life. The scripture says we must not give up meeting together (Hebrews 10:25). The are lots of non-abusive churches out there. Just find one. My advice to my former friends in His People who have become abusive religious leaders is that if you have done this or suspect you may have done this to people - go contact them and apologise for your behaviour to try repair the spiritual damage before judgement day. No. What you have done is not okay - even if you were 'defending the ministry'. Disagreements can be resolved peacefully without treating people like dirt - or accusing them of all sorts of bogus spiritual problems. Kicking people out should only be done in the most serious cases of unrepentant grevious sin (which ironically is what His People failed to do when it should have done so).

And if you are not sure, then contact me and I will advise you. Suggest both categories of people read books on spiritual abuse such as 'Healing spiritual abuse' by Ken Blue.

If you have been treated like dirt by my former friends in His People leadership - please accept my apologies as far as I am able to offer it for their behaviour. Just be comforted with the reassurance, that the problem is likely not with you but with them. You are welcome to contact me for help. Lots of others have been treated the same way.