EVERY NATION CHURCHES Formerly Known Morning Star International aka Maranatha Part 3

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

OK here it is.

[sandy (68.90.139.218)]

Whew thanks!

You seem pretty knowlegeable about MSI and all.
How did you first find out that something was wrong?

my church looks good except for the globalism and the elitism. They didnt say anything about their past or even call themselves Apostles.

Did you get Rice's book "Every Nation"
"Recovering the Apostolic Mandate"
No one in our church had a clue what that was.

[really (172.144.138.207)]

I'm sorry I have to ask. :-P


After 1000 posts, doesn't this topic get old to anyone?!?!?!

[GG (66.248.85.42)]

I was in a good maranatha then transferred to Phil bonasso's church . I did not pay attention at first, I just felt something not right , very different from where I came from. Anyway, I just ignore what I felt for almost ten years, all I know I was in maranatha , affiliated with my former church that was it. It was a depression that woke me up, Peace only come from God, , gradually I lost that and I also gradually start to live in fear of these people. Anyway, I had to start praying really seriously and I had to look for other christians of the other churches that are charismatic to help me. I did not even think of looking for a help in the church.

So the christians start recommend me books and tapes, that started the whole thing . My eyes start to get open to all the junk in my church.

It was a big revelation for me. Thats how it all started. Now, i am open to read anything, In my former church, they would try to discourage that. Its always be careful with this and be careful with that.
That will keep you in bondage, thats FEAR. The opinion of the pastor were always important, their recommendation are always important. and If you are a pioneer spiritually, you want to try anything, making mistake is part of the growth in Christ. My former church, hates making mistakes, they are perfectionist. Thats why they never grow up.
When the scales came off my eyes, I saw the elitism, the materialism, which was discussed in the part 1 and nobody believes me. The love of Money is there, the love of power and control is still there. 2 elders even told me themselves that they are materialistic. I am not judging them for that, i appreciate the honesty, its being honest of your mistake that will make you free. AND my former pastor hates that.

ANd in regards to Rice's Books, no , I did not plan to read any of that junk. But a good friend of mine who left did. And she told me some weird things in there thats not biblical. I did read Jim lafoon's book, it was given to me, I felt its a carbon copy of the prophetic books I read in the past. There is nothing there that is new. Its like somebody copying someone else anointing. Just to be "in".

I have seen bad things in MSI, just plain evil things. I don't mind a imperfect church but there is a fine line between an imperfect and evil church. My former MSI church is just plain evil.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Sandy,

who is your former pastor ? If you don't mind telling us.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Really - I don't think they will ever get tired. Especially if they keep getting new people willing to listen to the same accusations again.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Amazing isn't it ? they had the same discernment like we have, the elitism, materialism, pride, hiding their past, never wants to talk about it. They rather deceived people. Every single person who left MSI that came to this board said the same exact thing.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

GG - It is definitely the same spirit.

[sandy (69.150.192.32)]

I am so glad I am out! WOW and so thankfull that God saw fir to open my eyes
My church was in Texas.

I feel happy and soooo set free. I have talked to some x members and they are glad to be out of the bondage also.

It just breks my heart to see my friends who love Christ but they think that the Church is right and they don't want to hear any negative.

You have to be willing to give up your friends when you find truth.

[Anonymous (68.212.35.251)]

Sandy,

I have read Rice's book. One of his claims that the church has largely failed in its mission, what we know of as the Great Commission, which he calls the "Apostolic Mandate," thus the title.

Do you have any questions about it? Have you read it yet?

blessings,
ulyankee

[Anonymous (64.65.136.84)]

Please understand this may take a while to completely put together the larger picture of who Maranatha really is and how they structure themselves.

For those people who are just now coming on this list, here is a review of what has happened:

1) A person named Robert Weiner married Rose Russell sometime in the early 70's and they started a christian outreach that morphed into a very treacherous and dangerous cult that continues today.

1) The original blanket name of this cult was dubbed Maranatha, which means in aramaic, "Oh Lord, come quickly." It turns out that Weiner had his beginnings with another larger and older cult movement that initially called itself, the New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR).

2) The NOLR started with a well-documented false revival from 1948-1951 in North Battleford, Saskatchewan, CANADA.

3) A systematic study was performed on the teachings, doctrines and practices of the leaders of the NOLR false revival. This included open letters and responses to surviving leaders of this false revival, written documentation and a historical study of their doctrines and practices. We now know that the NOLR leaders plagiarized the occult writings of German theosophist Jacob Boehme (1575-1624) and his English Behmenist followers who took Boehme's doctrines and formed an English utopian cult known as the Philadelphian Society.

4) To understand who Bob Weiner, Rice Broocks, Leo Lawson, C. Peter Wagner, and many other leaders in this false movement, one has to focus on the objectives of the occult Philadelphian Society because that is where the 21st century leaders of the NOLR are getting their ideas and practices.

5) The NOLR leaders, including Maranatha, Morning Star International, Champions For Christ, etc. have a religious scheme going that is wtritten in their IRS 501(c)3 Tax exemption paperwork to start sub-organizations or "cells" under the guise of evangelism. These "cells" are thought of in terms of a living organism. All these "cells" are controlled much the same was as a multi-level marketing pyramid which "up-lines" and "down-lines." The followers are given limited knowledge of who or what they have joined themselves to and any questioning/probing by anybody is greatly discouraged. Mind-control and brainwashing tactics; the very same tactics that are used by nazis, communists, the CIA, etc are used to keep the members in line. This is cleverly done to appear in a Christianized context.

6)Many leaders are so brainwashed and controlled by the very cleverly concealed agendas that they are totally unaware of their organization's history. One of the reasons for this is that every time some Christians discover what is going on and expose these people for who they really are, the leaders who are fully aware use various strategies to make it appear they went away and then they re-appear using different names, re-named objectives, etc. Upon careful analysis, they are the same people doing the same occult activity and trying to enslave people into their cult for the same reasons.

The NOLR has been known over the last 50 years under various names:

Manifested Sons of God
Manchild Company
Sonship
Melchisedek Priesthood
The Shulamites
Joel's Company
Elijah Company
The Many-membered Christ
The New Order
The Overcomers
God's Army
The Corporate Body
The Body
Feast of Tabernacles
Tabernacle of David
New Breed
Chosen seed
etc., etc.

The terms merely reflect whatever idiosyncratic use is being made of allegorical Scriptural illustrations at any instant. A 2nd generation NOLR cult leader named John Robert Stevens (JRS) started an offshoot of this movement as the dangerously aberrant sect called "The Walk." One of the leaders in "The Walk" was Royal DeWayne Cronquist. Maranatha founder Bob Weiner was commissioned i.e. spoken into his Latter Rain existence in 1967 while in the Chula Vista, CA home of Cronquist on Thanksgiving Day. Five years later, he starts Maranatha. in the late 70's and early 80's, Bob and Rose Weiner become involved with another NOLR leader named Bill Britton. Cronquist and Britton both taught NOLR doctrines. The doctrines directly reflect the teachings of the Rosicrucian utopian cult, The Philadelphian Society, but Weiner, like so many other apostate NOLR leaders, had to re-package these doctrines to make them more acceptable to their target group, namely, COLLEGE STUDENTS. The Freemasons and many other occult groups like the Mormons who share the same Philadelphian Society beliefs, also target COLLEGE STUDENTS.

The reason COLLEGE STUDENTS are such an easy target to capture and entrain is because they are away from their parents for the first time and lack discernment along with the ability to challenge the NOLR occult leaders who are masquerading as legitimate orthodox "Conservative Christians."

The entire NOLR movement is also an occult extension of the British Israel movement in that the Philadelphian Society believed that the 12 nations in Europe were actually the 10 Lost Tribes of Israel who are, just now in the 21st century, rediscovering who their "True Identity" really is. The original Philadelphian Society also believed that the souls of the original 10 Tribes have travelled through time and would re-manifest themselves in the descendants of Israel thought to have migrated to Europe, Canada, and America. These concepts of reincarnation are the reason for the subgroup names like "Joel's Army, The Elijah Company, The Manifest Sons of God, etc.

You can think of it like this: imagine the essence or corporate spirit of the prophet Elijah, Moses, Jesus, etc. coming into an "elected" group of believers who are led into an altered state of consciousness through submission/obediance schemes, music mysticism, false teachings, and tests of obediance to their leaders. After these testings and brainwashings, they are commissioned by the imposition of hands and the leaders proclaiming them new titles like "prophet" "apostle" etc. The new candidates in these "cells" or "bodies" of these new self-proclamed leaders are then groomed to occult perfection so that they can act, speak, and behave very close to what a real Christian sounds like.

These newly commissioned candidates are then "sent out" by their leaders to inject their false doctrines into more college students so that more college students in turn change their personal identity with a new identity the Latter Rain leaders give them. This is very similar to when someone joins an Islamic sects and is given a new name like "Muhammed" etc.

The new candidates, like Audra Harpel and Chris Cook shown here:
Harpel, Audra; Cook, Chris. “Policies change for religious student groups: We call upon all student groups to stand up for what they believe.” Minnesota Daily [Opinion] Sept. 9, 2004. http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2004/09/09/10096

are so brainwashed and are so ignorant of their movement's history, that they actually believe they are Christians and are living a Christian life. What is really odd is when one shows they brainwashed MCM/MSI candidates written articles and the scads of documents showing them that they are in a cult movement, even putting it in their face, they refuse to even physically touch the paper!!!!!!! Yet they gobble up everything their cult leaders give them as if it is directly from the throneroom of Almightly God!

It's Incredible!

It's Outrageous!

It's Diabolical!

And the beat goes on and on!

"Oh, we're not a cult!" they squeal, when confronted by student journalists who do systematic research into articles/expose's written by the Wall Street Journal, Chicago Tribune, St. Paul Pioneer Press, Time, Newsweek, etc. They are blinded because their leaders have injected false doctrines into their minds and then they are like walking zombies who cannot think on their own. They must get their orders from their leaders because they are systematically and carefully programmed to believe they are not following God if they don't.

To the MCM/MSI congregants, to confront their leaders in public (not in their closed door offices) with open documents showing the many incidents or mind-control, sexual control/abuse, lies, threats, brainwashings, etc. is like confrontiong God Himself because Maranatha leaders imbed into the minds of their captive candidates that they are God!!! Once the brainwashed candidate has his/her mind properly entrained to believe this, they are given systematic "booster shots of doctrinal venom" to keep them in a perpetual state of mind-control. Examples can be found in this small sampling of articles:

Morton, Roger. “Organization, Operation Of Maranatha Christian Center Is Outlined” Sun-Democrat [Paducah, KY] Oct. 7, 1973.

Eysman, Barry. “Maranatha Center Takes Bible School To Paducah Children” Sun-Democrat [Paducah, KY] Aug. 10, 1973.

Hogan, Dave. “The Maranatha Matter: Chapel Sets Off Controversy” Memphis Press-Scimitar, Oct. 23, 1976.

Stone, Paul. “Officials relate dealing with Maranatha groups”, part 4 of 4, Kansas State Collegian, vol. 88, no. 33, Oct. 8, 1981, p. 1+8.

Zipser, Andrew. “Cults: A battle for mind control”(part 2 of 4) Phoenix Gazette, Dec. 8, 1981, pp. D1-2.

Zipser, Andrew. “Maranatha: one woman’s journey through her mind”, (part 3 of 4) Phoenix Gazette, Dec. 9, 1981, pp. H1, H4.

Zipser, Andrew. “Maranatha’s crusade come to ASU” (part 4 of 4) Phoenix Gazette, Dec. 10, 1981, H1-2.

Zipser, Andrew. “Religious group relies on young for growth” Phoenix Gazette, Dec. 9, 1981, pp. H5.

Crosariol, Beppi. “New U of T religious group widely condemned as cult: Linked with castration incident at Waterloo campus”, The Newspaper [Toronto] vol. 5, no. 4, Sep. 22, 1982.

Ehli, Barb. “Maranatha: church or cult?”, University Daily Kansan, Apr.30, 1982.

Kenyon, Scott. “Local ministers angered by Maranatha, claim ticket promotion plan is misleading”, Kansas State Collegian, Apr. 1, 1982, p. 1+14.

Mah, Julie. “Cult mind control comes under fire”, Kansas State Collegian, Aug. 30, 1982, p. 5.
Montgomery, S.K. “Group supports family contact”, (opinions) Kansas State Collegian, Sep. 2, 1982, p. 1+14.

Peterson, Debbie. “’Chariots’ tickets tied to local ‘cult’”, Manhattan Mercury Mar. 30, 1982

Portal, Ann. “Maranatha: just say they’re new in the neighborhood” part 1 of 2, Oregon Daily Emerald (University of Oregon) April 15, 1982.

Portal, Ann. “Cult? Campus Maranatha…just another religious order or a group of Christian ‘Shepherds’?” part 2 of 2, Oregon Daily Emerald (University of Oregon) April 16, 1982.

Farrell, Charlene. “Former member says Maranatha ruins family ties”, part 4 of 5, Kansas State Collegian, vol. 89, no. 118, Mar.10, 1983, p. 5+16.

Myatt, Alan & Kathy. A Critique of the Beliefs and Practices of Maranatha Campus Ministries (self-published, 1983).

Onken, Brian. “Assessment of Doctrinal and Theological Concerns Respecting Maranatha Christian Ministries of Gainsville, Florida” [Confidential] Christian Research Institute (CRI) San Juan Capistrano, CA, 1983.

Randall, Laurie. “Hearing set for Maranatha’s appeal”, Kansas State Collegian, vol. 89, no. 166, Jun.28, 1983, p. 1.

Reilly, Sean. “Maranatha violates bylaws; UAB withholds registration”, Kansas State Collegian, vol. 89, no. 153, Jun.6, 1983, p. 1.

Rottinghaus, Brenda. “Tribunal revokes Maranatha’s appeal”, Kansas State Collegian, vol. 90, no. 5, Aug. 26, 1983, p. 1.

Sauer, Michele. “Complaint filed against Maranatha”, Kansas State Collegian, Mar.29, 1983, p. 11.

Sauer, Michele. “UAB schedules confidential hearing about complaint against Maranatha”, Kansas State Collegian, May 3, 1983, p. 6.

Bjornstad, James et al. “A Statement of Evaluation Regarding Maranatha Campus Ministries/Maranatha Christian Ministries/Maranatha Campus Fellowship”, May 8, 1984, also reprinted in Cultic Studies Journal, vol. 2, no. 2 (June 1984) pp. 278-283.

Kirk, Virginia. “Church tags Maranatha as ‘dangerous’” part 3 of 3, GW Hatchet, [George Washington University] vol. 80, no. 39, Mar. 1, 1984.

Blood, Linda. “Shepherding/Discipleship: Theology and Practice of Absolute Obedience” Cultic Studies Journal, vol. 2, no. 2, 1985, pp. 235-245.

Cannon, Steve. “Maranatha Campus Ministries: God’s Green Berets?” Personal Freedom Outreach (PFO) Newsletter, vol. 5, no. 1, pp. 4,7. (Jan-Mar 1985).

Cumbey, Constance. “Year of Jubilee? or Age of Aquarius Disguised?” excerpt from Chapter 15, "A Secret Kingdom?" in A Planned Deception: The Staging of a New Age Messiah (East Detroit, MI: Pointe Publishers, Inc., 1985) pp. 171-175.


Onken, Brian. Christian Research Institute “Dangers of the “Trinity” in Man”, Forward, vol. 8, no. 4, pp. 26-28 (Winter 1986) CRI Statement DT170.
http://www.equip.org/free/DT170.htm

Diamond, Sarah. “Shepherding” Covert Action News, 27: 18-31 (Spring 1987).

Gazdik, Tanya. “Some Colleges Warn Students That Cult-Like Methods Are Being Used by Christian Fundamentalist Christian Groups” Chronicle of Higher Education, vol. 36, no. 2, Nov. 15, 1989.

Public Interest Registry (PIR), “Maranatha Social Network Diagram” 1990
http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb01?_MARANATHA_MINISTRIES_ accessed Sept. 16, 2004.

Abernethy, Bob. “Champions For Christ: The NFL and Religion” Religion and Ethics Newsweekly, Episode no. 201, Sep. 4, 1998.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week201/cover.html

Ducibella, Jim. Staff Writer. "God Squad, or Scheme to Skim Player’s Pay? Some See Champions For Christ as a Positive Force. Others Say It’s Tithe Fleeces the Gullible:[FINAL Edition]. " Virginian-Pilot [Norfolk, Va.] 14 Aug. 1998,C1.

Morrissey, Rick; Becker, Robert. “To some agents, Champions for Christ is a holy terror” Chicago Tribune Aug. 3, 1998

Pocono Record. “Report: NFL Investigating Religious Group” Pocono Record, Aug. 2, 1998.
http://www.poconorecord.com/1998/sports/national/jmm64801.htm

Starr, Mark; Rhodes, Steve. "NFL scrutinizes Champions for Christ ministry :[Indiana - Michigan - Mishawaka - Tribune Edition]. " South Bend Tribune [South Bend, Ind.] 14 Aug. 1998,D1.

Starr, Mark; Rhodes, Steve. “God on the 50 Yard Line: Two NFL teams worry about a Texas ministry”. (Champions for Christ being investigated for its influence on football players) Newsweek Aug. 17, 1998:56.

Zolotov, Andrei Jr. “Foreign Pastors Put on a Black List (Bob Weiner)” The Moscow Times [Russia] Jul. 23, 2002. http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2002/07/23/001.html

Hansted, Chelsi; Haynes, Paula. “Student religious groups question Maranatha lawsuit: Leaders of several campus groups said the University’s nondiscrimination policy benefits student clubs.” Minnesota Daily [Campus], Nov. 5, 2003.

Myers, Jim. “Football Star Scores in Washington: Darrell Green wins national acclaim and $3 million in congressional earmarks for his youth foundation, but its services don’t match the fanfare.” Special Report, Youth Today July/Aug 2003, http://www.youthtoday.org/youthtoday/aajulyaug2003/specialstory.html accessed Aug. 12, 2004.

Jones, Mike. “Check out what the University and Maranatha did over summer vacation.” Minnesota Daily [Opinion] Sept. 15, 2004. http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2004/09/15/10187

Maranatha cult leader Bruce Harpel has brainwashed his wife and children to the point where his daughter thinks Maranatha is a legitimate Christian ministry/outreach to college students. It is absolutely amazing to see how this cult movement perpetuates itself through clever re-namings and re-structurings.

What is even more amazing is to watch more University of Minnesota students, especially students enrolled in the School of Journalism, miss the oportunity to make an investigation of Maranatha's history a class project. Why don't journalism majors jump on the chance to write an expose' on this well-documented occult campus group. Why, they could easily make national news and further their up and coming career and perform a public service to boot!

Perhaps their professors have brainwashed them into reporting on Gay Marriage when a real "Gay Wedding" is taking place right on their own campus with the theosophical Rosicrucian wedding between the New Order of the Latter Rain and their adherents (A New Age cult) and the Roman Catholic Church!

What type of "baby" do you think will be conceived in that trist -- any guesses!

Why don't you try

!!!!!THE ANTICHIST!!!!!

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Sandy,
Most of my friends left, but some stayed. There was a church split in the year 2000. I still think of them sometimes. There are people that I am still praying for in there. And a lot of them are still single and are approaching late 30's or 40's. And they do wanted to get married. But I highly doubt thats going to happen. Just pray for them, if they ever wanted to have a chance to get married, they needed to get out.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

64.65.136.84 question, i have been wondering all these years, Who specifically discipled Bob Weiner ? Was it the 5 who started the shepherding movement that discipled Bob Weiner ?

and what is the name of the church did he came from ?

[Anonymous (67.64.115.126)]

64.65.136.84,

As always, very interesting and informative post.

Thanks for the info on the Sandy Simpson/deceptioninthechurch videos. While the production quality is fair, the substantive quality is EXCELLENT. To be able to see and hear the NAR heretics in action really brings things into perspective. The teachings, words and actions of these leaders of the NAR would be laughable if people's very souls were not hanging in the balance. I would urge anyone who is currently in MSI/EN, or any church that is part of the New Apostolic Reformation, to PLEASE order the tapes and prayerfully watch and listen with ears to hear. If you are still convinced that the "Third Wave," et al doctrines are of God, then nothing on this board will be of effect.

Also, a comprehensive reading of the ante-Nicene church "fathers" makes it clear that our spiritual ancestors, some of whom literally walked with Paul, Peter and John, recognized that the office of apostle ended in the first century, that the foundation of the church WAS (past tense) laid and the faith (a simple one) was once for all delivered to the saints and was COMPLETE.

The battle against gnosticism and false apostles and prophets is nothing new.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

TO 64.65.136.84: THAT ENTRY WAS VERY GOOD, AND VERY INFORMATIVE. I WOULDN'T MIND DISTRIBITING THAT INFORMATION TO THE TWO CHURCHES HERE, IN WASHINGTON DC. THOSE MEMBERS COULD USE SOME ENLIGHTENMENT. BUT I WON'T. YOU SEE WHEN I WALKED OUT, I TOO TRIED TO DISTRIBUTE SOME OF MY OWN RESEARCH I HAD GATHERED BUT I WAS MET WITH LAUGHTER. NO ONE BELIEVED ME. THEY ARE TOO ENTRENCHED IN THIER BELIEFS. THE MIND CONTROL TECHNIQUES THEY USE ARE QUITE EFFECTIVE. BUT WHAT YOU SAY IS TRUE. TAKE IT FROM ME, I'M AN EX MEMBER. MORE LATER . . . .

[Anonymous (67.64.115.126)]

The fact that the National Association of Evangelicals' president is Ted Haggard makes me ill. Not only is he a NAR leader, he is a documented LIAR. It is one thing to read about it on www.deceptioninthechurch and another to see and hear Haggard espousing certain things and then completely deny the same (presumably embarrassed that the NAE may catch on). The man has zero integrity.

[another brick in the wall (68.52.137.63)]

To Upper Case 20 and the rest of the readers and posters:

I completely understand your perception of the deeply-entrenched mind control that the members are under. It is very real. Up until months ago, I was one of the same. HOWEVER, I strongly exhort everyone to begin praying for the Holy Spirit's intervention. He is waiting on our intercession for these people. This "family" who is having the wool pulled over their eyes must be grieving the Holy Spirit as the end results ultimately keep the believer from a relationship with Christ AND in bondage.

God cares far more about our fellow church members than we ever will. He hasn't given up hope. And the Holy Spirit ain't going to allow these MSI demons much leeway for very long. Throughout history, God has dissipated any collective movement that was not glorifying to Him. Yes, we may be in the Ultimate Chess Game now.

But we must do our part to intercede for these people. That is the job that has been assigned to us along with this ongoing research and revelations. I urge everyone to begin to adamantly pray for the tearin' down of these walls.

[Anonymous (68.212.35.251)]

Another Brick,

Thank you so much for that reminder.

For months I've been praying for my former church, its pastors, and for pastors and leaders in Morning Star... that what is in darkness comes to light, and that they have eyes to see and ears to hear the truth in Christ.

I do not pray at all against the Morning Star organization. I do instead pray for the truth to be revealed. I also pray every day that the Lord continue to lead me in the truth in Christ.

And every day He does just that... He is so faithful.

I'll be praying in agreement with you, Another Brick. Thanks again.

ulyankee

[another brick in the wall (68.52.137.63)]

Hmmm...
I just had a moment of epiphany. In response to .84's last post. I was reviewing the various names listed over the 50 years: New Breed.

Israel Houghton's latest band is called.

Israel Houghton and New Breed.

Hmmm.... I guess it is a new season, indeed!!

[another brick in the wall (68.52.137.63)]

Oh... that's right. I forgot.

Your Latter will be greater than the past... The best is yet to come.

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

Another Brick,

I had realized that too. I just wasn't able to listen to songs like "We Speak to Nations" in the same way after that.

"New Breed" is actually an alternate term coined by Paul Cain (one of the Kansas City Prophets) for the "Manifest Sons of God" - the leaders who will bring the church into unity under the authority of the newly restored foundational apostles and prophets:

http://watch.pair.com/rain.html
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c06.html
http://www.dtl.org/shield/latter-rain-1.htm
http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain11.htm
http://www.banner.org.uk/kcp/kcp-wineskins.html

(among others)

Maybe this was a more appropriate post for the Latter Rain subdiscussion or the gazillion or so other discussions that seem to have cropped up over the past few days... but since you did bring it up...
:-)

blessings,
ulyankee

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

Oh, and this too:

http://www.oxleigh.freeserve.co.uk/pt115.htm

This page goes into the historical connections between the current theological streams we're seeing here with Quietism (including Jane Leade and the Philadelphian Society)

The writer here calls it a new breed too... of pride.

This one's for you, .84. ;-)

ulyankee

[Anonymous (198.54.202.115)]

Elitism and favouritism are tow things that the NT warns strongly against. Why is there such strong practises of these sins amongst parts of MSI? Is it justified in any way in church government instructions and bible schools?

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Yes, it is justified in MSI. If a person is obedient , dress really good in MSI , gives lots of money,knows how to comform and know how to praise the leaders then there would be favoritism. then the elitism comes in that "we are the leaders" ,"we are special the elite force and chosen of the Lord thats why we are the leaders" , One of the things Phil bonasso believes in that He is the one will lead this army of God , sort of like a general.

I ignore all of that years ago. I believed in it before.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Thas also why he treats the congregation like a military and he is sort of like the General of the army. Pretty harsh.

[Rob Greene (24.30.90.205)]

Help! I have been reading through all of this discussion, and my brain is turning to mush-- too much info in too little time! I grew up in a baptist church, and now attend a non-denominational church which I believe to have very similar beliefs to the baptist denomination, but I want to know... HOW DOES MSI/EN COMPARE in belief and theology to what a baptist believes? I have gathered that there is a huge emphasis on prophecy (in the opinions of some of you, to a fault, as it has replaced biblical teaching), and has a strong emphasis on discipling (which seems to be considered by some of you to be done in a "mind controlling, occult" fashion). I'm sure those are just vague generalizations, and there is much more to it. Will someone explain to me how it compares to the belliefs of a baptist?

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Rob Greene. There are too many info, just get this two book, Twisted scriptures and The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. These two books describes what all of us went through.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

If regarding to false prophets or false prophecy. Then get this one, Unmasking the Jezebel Spirit by John Paul Jackson.This book will teach you how to discern God's voice.

[sandy (68.94.152.137)]

Bob- I know how you feel. It makes your head spin
Just hang around and share with us and you will understand slowly as I had to do.

The diference between the Baptist( I love Baptist!)
and the fundamental non-denominational is that supposedly they believe the miracles and Holy Spirti infilling of acts is still in operation.
Unfortunatly they have veered off this in that they (most of them like MSI\EN)
now think they can add to scripture by their personal revelation like the first Apostles did, like you said. It seems to me that you are on the right track so far.

Which brand are you in? Do they say they are Apostles? Mine did not say that but they talk to
the congregation like we were babies and we never knew how or where they got their direction or doctrine. I suggest you see if you can find out who they are following.

Rememver the truth always sets you free!!!!
Thank you Jesus!!!
really I am not even an emotional person.

[Rob Greene Atlanta, GA (24.30.90.205)]

Thanks GG and Sandy, for your quick responses... the church I attend is a non-denominational church that branched off from a baptist church (which is why it is so simillar theologically), and is not affiliated with MSI/EN.

The problem with "non-denominational" is that it can mean ANYTHING... what that means to MSI/EN could be TOTALLY different than any other non-denominational church out there, which is why I was curious. I recently met someone who attends MSI/EN, and am trying to learn a little about what they believe before I see them again, as a point of discussion, because we have talked a good bit about "our churches" in generalities, but nothing about what we specifically believe...

GG, as someone who seems to be speaking out "against" MSI/EN, would you say that it is possible that there are bible-believing, Christ-following branches of MSI/EN, who are on the right track? And, without speaking any kind of judgement, just in a general sense, do you believe that there are people attending MSI/EN who ARE saved and ARE going to heaven?

I'll look in to the books, but I'd be curious as to your thoughts as well!

And, can ANYONE speak to legitimacy of the Atlanta branch of MSI/EN?

[Sandy (68.94.152.137)]

Bob - there are many bible believing christians in the congregations in these churces and many are still getting saved because of genuine bible
believing. Some Pastors are good.
It is just the Hierarchy of the movement that has the false doctrine. The biggest question to me is how much are the pastors decieved themselves and
how much do they know that they are not telling
the People. We never cease to pray for all of them
and the only anger I feel is for those knowingly decieving people. I am sure God is angry too although the Bible predicts this apostacy

AS for your baptist, now non-denominational church
is it following Saddleback?
Rick Warren, Purpose Driven?
Alot of them are, Do they have small group?
Are they embracing change or are they traditional?
Do they still sing hymns?
There is a former baptist church in my town that I visited and I felt like I had just walked into Saddleback. The coffee was great though!

[Rob Greene (24.30.90.205)]

Sandy, we are a member of the Willow Creek Association, if that's what you're looking for! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

We have small groups instead of Sunday School.
We embrace change, yet hold to the founding principals of many traditional churches.
We still sing LOTS of hymns, but we introduce LOTS of new stuff as well.

I actually find it to be one of the best blends between "baptist church, circa 1950" and "cutting edge creativity" out there. Solid, Christ-centered, biblical teaching, through and through...

btw, to other posters on this site, I have no concept of the rules or regulations you are following in posting... if this discussion is felt to be "off-topic" (I believe it's not, but I want to be respectful of everyone else), please let me know!

And again, anyone who knows anything abuot the ATLANTA branch of MSI/EN, I'd love to hear from you!

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Rob , by experience, I have to look into the church's history. If MSI/EN , its history is maranatha, then I would avoid it at all cost.

Though some churches are already in the indoctrination process already. 2 MSI church that has no maranatha background are already teaching that are not biblical based.

I believed some are literally getting saved and some are losing their salvation during the process. Because it is by faith , our heart, to believe that Jesus saved us. There is a difference between believing it in our mind and believing it in our hearts.
You will know it by the way they WALK. ANd how they behave and how they talk. and a lot of times it will become evident when they preach.
Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

The 3 books I recommend would help you open your eyes to a lot of things, Lots and lots of scriptures in it. Once you finished reading this books, you will be more spiritually in tuned.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Also the history of the Shepheding / Discipleship Movement is coming up in these charismatic churches. Search it in the internet.

this mainly teaches and practice that the church goverment is the HEAD of the church not Jesus Christ.
From there a lot of false doctrines arises. You can also look up the history of shepherding and discipleship movement, because this is what mostly apostolic reformation is about.

Also the practice and teaching came from doctrine of the Roman Catholics.

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

Hi Rob,

There's a local church here that is also a Willow Creek affiliated church that we've attended a few times.

I'm personally not a big fan of the seeker-sensitive movement, especially in the seemingly canned teachings that also rely upon multiple Bible versions in order to make a particular point (so not Bible exegesis). It's "church-lite" to me but that's just a matter of personal taste. I'm also not real comfortable with the connections between Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, and the ecumenist "one world church" movement or their connections to the "Third Wave." Also, since we are classical Pentecostals, we would probably not make this our "home church."

HOWEVER, I will say that I felt much safer there than I did in our former church, especially than I did toward the end of our time in our former church.

For starters, the congregation is encouraged to give and to tithe, but they are not ORDERED to like we were. So giving that started out being something done from one's heart, which is the New Testament standard, ended up being brought down to the obligatory Old Testament "Law" standard instead. But the Law was only a shadow of things to come, which is why we now live according to the new, better covenant in Jesus, with the law now written upon our hearts.

(We generously give now out of our hearts to individuals, churches and ministries as the need arises and as we see fit, and we are seeing first hand the fruits of our giving, because it is once again from our hearts! Once we do settle on one home church, we will resume tithing. But it is nice to be able to give out of our hearts to people in need. We didn't have enough money left over before to do so.)

Also, after one service, there were a few minutes before service was supposed to finish, so the pastor opened it up for questions about the teaching from the congregation. The pastor of the church we had been attending more frequently before visiting here would do the same thing during mid-week service. The attitude was quite the opposite of, OUR WORDS ARE THE WORD OF THE LORD... OBEY!!!!!

Small groups are highly encouraged, but don't appear to be mandated. As far as I can tell, people aren't assigned to a cell group leader or accountability partner.

It's not Pentecostal/charismatic, but they seem to allow room for the working of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit in individuals.

They don't push the Willow Creek connection either. Actually, we only learned it was a Willow Creek church by visiting their website. It's not Morning Star Morning Star Morning Star Morning Star Morning Star over and over again. The preaching isn't primarily on submission to leaders, obedience, "spiritual family," or "spiritual DNA."

My stepdaughter was particularly impressed that this church participates in a ministry that drills clean water wells for poor people in the US and abroad. She kept going on and on about how nice it was that they help people like that. That sure speaks of Christ, doesn't it?

BTW, my personal recommendation is stay away from any Morning Star International church. Because the "spiritual DNA" is being imparted throughout the movement. Some churches are "better" than others. But many of the teachings are coming directly from Morning Star, not just from local pastors. Pastors/churches are covenanted with Morning Star, and each individual pastor is directly "covered" by one of their top "apostolic team" - meaning someone like Rice Broocks, Phil Bonasso, Jim Laffoon, etc.

ulyankee

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

I don't mind about the prophetic and apostolic reformation movement, Thats getting popular right now. ITS how it is practice that is scary, though my current church believes in it, I stayed in this church its because they are not abusive nor controlling. I got born again in a pentecostal atmosphere. So I rather stay in one.

What makes me sick in the stomach is how can these people just carelessly declare anybody they like as apostles. I am glad my own pastor whom other ministries call him an apostle , he never declares it or admit that he is one. Its not important to him. I have met men who kept emphasizing that they are apostles because this senior pastor said so. If these people are secure in the Lord, then titles and positions are not important. Just do what God told them to do in the first place. Be led by the Holy Spirit. The bible said we are complete in Christ.Then we don not need a title and position. Why emphasizing that ? Unless these men are insecure.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

And that so scary in the Apostolic reformation is that Apostles , that charismatic churches believes in are the top people in the Body of Christ. The one who oversees churches. And that will attract a lot of people who are Controlling, its the love of Power that these men want. The power to Control. They love to be on the top,position , power and glory . That position that they crave. Apostles were supposed to SERVE, Thats the MAIN principle of Christianity. ANd there was no evidence of that. To just carelessly call anybody an apostle is dangerous. let God reveal it who is the true apostles if there is one. Don't jump in the bandwagon. These people should just step back.
If God did speak about it He will bring in the apostles, let Him do it in due time.

[Anonymous (128.101.216.114)]

To Rob Greene,

A great overview of the New Order of the Latter Rain, which surely includes MCM/MSI can be had through the book,

Dager, Albert. "Vengeance Is Ours: The Church in Dominion" (Redmond, WA: Sword Publishers, 1990)

You can order this through Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc. It's only $10 but its worth its weight in gold because it exposes the sorcery that goes down in the Name of Christianity by the movers and shakers in the NOLR.

Comparing Baptist to Latter Rain theology

This is a good idea! But first you must realize that Baptists are now being hit with the apostates in the NOLR camp. Take for instance Pastor John Piper of Bethlehem Baptist in Downtown Minneapolis. His church is riddled with snakes from Mike Bickle's Harp and Bowl cult in Kansas City AND, apparently unbeknownst to Piper, his top dog, Livingston I think is his name...has instituted CELL GROUPS at BB. This occult infiltrator told me in a "Get to know Bethlehem" class that I was going straight to hellfire if I wasn't a part of a cell group. I questioned him publicly 3X to verify that he wasn't saying this tongue-in-cheek. He was deadly serious and hence, he himself is teaching another gospel, another christ, and another spirit and is going to hellfire himself if he doesn't repent.

I have great respect for many Baptists, and I just couldn't figure out why Dr. John Piper, the author of many books and a fair preacher, would be suckered into the "magical world view" of the hermetic NOLR? It just simply through me for a loop!!!!!

Well, I did some checking and discovered a position paper written by Piper in 1990 on the subject of Cosmic Warfare in the Heavenlies. He published this in the March 1990 edition of "The Standard." Here's the cite:

Piper, John. "Cosmic Level Spiritual Warfare:
Do territorial spirits exist?; If so, how do Christians battle them?" The Standard, March 1990, pp. 28-29.

Now keep in mind we see in this article that Piper is meeting with C. Peter Wagner, the "Chief Apostle" in the Behmeist New Order of the Latter Rain. There is absolutely no differece between the NOLR and John Robert Stevens New Age cult "The Walk" and the false NOLR revival in CANADA, or the
the sorcerers in Kansas City. But back to how Piper was lured into the NOLR, let's let Piper speak for himself:

Presenting Dr. John Piper (who currently looks pretty fatigued and run down perhaps because he's neck-deep in heresy and he really doesn't know what to do about it and save face at the same time...)

Cosmic Level Spiritual Warfare
Do territorial spirits exist?
If so, how do Christians battle them?

By John Piper

On February 12 (1990) about 30 prayer leaders met in Pasadena at the invitation of Peter Wagner for a Post Lausanne II Consultation of Cosmic Level Spiritual Warfare. At least five workshops at Lausanne II in Manila last July had. dealt with "territorial spirits" and their relationship to world evangelization. The Pasadena meeting was strictly ad hoc and aimed simply to pray and brainstorm about wrestling with principalities and powers in world evangelization.

What shall we make of this new warfare strategy in evangelism? Is it the sort of thing you only read about in Frank Peretti's novels? Or is it terribly real and strategic for finishing the great commission among the "hard" and "closed" peoples of the world?

First of all, what are we talking about? Increasingly, missionaries and evangelists are asking whether the "principalities, powers, world rulers of this present darkness and spiritual hosts of wickedness in heavenly places" may refer to a hierarchy of demonic beings, some of whom are charged with darkening and oppressing a specific territory or people.

If so, it may be that some kind of concerted prayer of resistance focused on these territorial spirits might “open” a territory to the gospel in unprecedented ways.

Demonic Warfare

For example, one report from Lausanne II went like this: in the fall of 1984 a group of pastors and leaders from the San Nicholas/Rosario area of Argentina gathered to discuss and pray about spiritual warfare.

The gathering was prompted by the realization that 109 towns within 100 miles of their training center had no Christian witness. They did some preliminary studies and discovered that the town of Arroyo Seco appeared to be the seat of satanic activity in the region.

Years before, a well known warlock (sorcerer) by the name of Mr. Meregildo operated out of that town. He was so famous and his cures so dramatic that people would trek to Arroyo Seco from overseas for his services. Before he died he evidently passed his powers on to 12 disciples. Three times a church was established in Arroyo Seco, and three times it closed down in the face of severe spiritual opposition.

After several days of Bible study and prayer, the pastors end leaders came together in one accord and placed the entire area under spiritual authority. A few of them traveled to Arroyo Seco. Positioning themselves across the street from the headquarters of Mr. Meregildo's followers they served an eviction notice on the forces of evil.

They announced to them that they were defeated and that Jesus Christ would attract many to Himself now that the church was united and had pledged to proclaim Him. Less than three years later, 82 of those towns had evangelical churches in them. An unverified report indicates that all of them today have a church or a Christian witness.

Scripture Speaks

What does Scripture say about this sort of thing? There is some relevant biblical truth to consider. First, we need to recognize the teaching that obstacles to effective evangelism are not only human pride (John 5:44) and hardness of heart (Acts 28:25 28), but also satanic opposition. This opposition comes in various forms.

Satan works in the hearts of the sons of disobedience (Eph. 2:2); he blinds unbelievers (2 Cor. 4:4) and plants them throughout the world (Matt. 13:39); he deceives the whole world (Rev. 12:9); he does signs and wonders to lead astray if possible even the elect (2 Thess. 2:9; Matt. 24:24).

He holds people captive to do his will (2 Tim. 2:25 ff.; Luke 11:21 ff.); he takes the Word away when it is sown (Matt. 13:4, 19); he gives out authority to world rulers (Luke 4:6; Rev. 13:2); he uses people to hinder others (Acts 13:10); he thwarts mission plans (1 Thess. 2:18); he throws ministers in prison (Rev. 2:10).

This raises the question whether a kind of focused warfare praying should be a component of our evangelism and mission strategy, alongside the preaching of the gospel. Should satanic opposition be explicitly resisted in prayer (James 4:7), along with petitions for the boldness of the preacher (Eph. 6:19) and the opening of the sinner's heart (Acts 16:14)?

Territorial Spirits

More specifically, are there territorial spirits that darken whole regions or peoples? Should there be a concerted prayer effort to "bind" or disarm these powers for the sake of more fruitful evangelism?

The passage of Scripture that points most clearly to the possibility that some demonic powers oversee territories is Daniel 10. Daniel set himself to pray and fast for three weeks. At the end of the time an angel appeared to him and said that God had heard his prayer from the first day he began to humble himself and pray (v. 12).

The reason he had taken three weeks to come, said the angel, was this: "But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me 21 days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes; came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come" (vv. 13 14).

Evidently the evil angelic power that fought the angel who was sent to Daniel had some special relation to the territory or nation of Persia. In verse 20 the angel says to Daniel, "Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come." Again the demonic power seems to have a special connection with a territory or nation of Greece.
Evidently one reason this angel came to Daniel was to encourage him in his praying. Ronald Wallace, the Scottish pastor and teacher, comments on this passage: "Daniel's most intense agony, when he fasted and prayed with great conflict of soul, took place during the period of a great struggle in heaven between Michael and the prince of Persia (vv. 3, 12).

"The conflict ended in victory for Michael, but the implication is that Daniel himself, in his sensitivity to what was going on in the other realm, was caught up into this conflict, was able to participate in it through his prayers, and thus to help to bring about sooner the successful outcome" (The Lord Is King: The Message of Daniel, Inter Varsity Press, 1979 p. 179).

Influences from the Dark Side

Is there any missionary and evangelistic significance to the apparent fact that Brazilian voodoo witches were offering sacrifice for the protection of Panama's chief of state, Manuel Noriega? Is there a "prince of Panama" to which these sacrifices were being made? Could he be discerned and opposed in concerted warfare prayer?
Was there a "prince" a "principality or power" behind the Nazi regime? Tom White of Mantle of Praise Ministries tells the story of someone involved:

"In 1983 we worked with a new convert, a middle aged German man who had grown up in West Berlin in the late 1930s. His grandfather and uncle had both been involved in the Nazi movement. He recalled secret meetings of German government officials in his home.

"With discernment and prayer, a stronghold of darkness was exposed, with an ugliness and intensity bound up with the very forces of anti Christ that fed the diabolical schemes of Hitler. Though the earthly movement finally failed, the spiritual principalities of German witchcraft and hatred of the Jew are still present.

“Because of the strategic influence of this one life, we battled for our brother's freedom over the course of a year. In the final session, a strong, dark spirit manifested itself, directly threatening my life. Holding firm in faith, with the Sword of the Spirit, four other pastors and myself prevailed to break Satan's claim on this man.”

Captives Freed

"Today, he and his wife serve the Lord in Reno, NV, witnessing to the grace of God and setting other captives free."

I consider myself a beginner in this matter of "cosmic level" spiritual warfare. I have no program to put forward. I find myself being drawn from many sides into realities and struggles that I never thought about five years ago. My aim in writing this article is to lay the matter before you for your consideration and prayer.

Who knows whether the intensification of spiritual conflict in the last decade of the second millennium will not take on dimensions foreign to our somewhat domesticated spirituality? Be on the alert! Let us not be ignorant of any of Satan's devices (neither personal nor cosmic).

Let us learn how to "resist him firm in our faith." And let us never forget the word of Revelation 12:11, "They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death."

Dr. John Piper, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church, Minneapolis, Minn., is a member of the BGC Prayer Commission.
******************************
My Comments

Many of the claims of "Taking Back the Land Through Spiritual Warfare" have been debunked in the last 14 years. Sure, without a doubt, prayer and fasting do work for the good in breaking curses, but they are useless when the object people group return to the heresies that got them there in the first place. Such is the case with MCM/MSI, YWAM (Loren Cunningham is now totally apostate and headed for the lake of fire), and for sure, C. Peter Wagner's covenanted sorcerer's who
parrot Jane Leade's channelled lie that "God has restored the office of Apostles and Prophets.)

If Dr. John Piper aware of the dual meanings of spiritual warfare in the context of the objectives and theology of the NOLR??? If he isn't already, he better get off his dead assets and find out right quick or he'll be going to the judgment seat of Almighty God to give account why he led his flock directly into the steely jaws of the anti-christ!!!

But let's not single out Dr. John Piper's dilemna here as there are other Baptists hwo need to wake up and smell the coffee. Take for instance apostate Baptist pastor, Dr. Greg Boyd of Woodland Baptist in Minneapolis. If John Piper is in danger of hellfire and might be able to escape if he wakes up to who he's associating himself with and what salivating wolves (like Stan Livingston) he's let into his church, then Greg Boyd for sure will be waterskiing in the Lake of Fire in Hell. And so will his flock! They'll all be their weeping and gnashing their teeth together and they'll all be cursing their dearly beloved pastor for leading them under the "apostolic protection and covering"
of the illustrious magician Rick Joyner and his queer sidekick Francis Frangipane.

Dr. Greg Boyd wrote a couple of thick books on spiritual warfare entitled, "GOD AT WAR: The Bible & Spiritual Conflict" and "SATAN & THE PROBLEM OF EVIL: Constructing a Trinitarian Warfare Theodicy" both of which can be found on his website here:

http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=255
http://www.antithesis.com/commentary/marketing_heresy.html
http://www.conservativeonline.org/journals/06_17_journal/2002v6n17_id02.htm
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/48/675.html
http://www.ondoctrine.com/2pip1401.htm
http://www.jude3.net/boards.htm

But here again is an errant Baptist pastor leading his flock right into the blood-dripping jaws of the NOLR!! Right now, besides teaching heresy relative to "Does God know the Future With certainty" and "Open Theism," Boyd is in bed with both Francis Frangipane and Rick Joyner trying to concieve a new child i.e. "The Manchild" or "The Many-Membered Manchild" as NOLR arian behmenists would put it. A Lutheran-turned-NOLR apostate named Morris Vaagnes sold out his flock, North Heights Lutheran Church in Arden Hills, MN, to Joyner's Morning Star Jedi Knight cloister. I wonder what's in Vaagnes' Swiss bank account for his dirty deed...

All these people are now fully engaged to infect their flock's children by NOLR techniques of 1)personal prophetic declarations - I witnessed Alpha apostate Dave Householder and several other latter rain minions tell the congregant's children in a Shav'ot Celebration at North Heightws several years ago, that "they would be the generation who would again do the miracles of Jesus and nothing would stop them" etc. etc. Same tired old Manifest Sons diatribe...

Boyd, Frangipane, and others have formed A.R.C. (Association of Renewal Churches). So what's a baptist pastor doing with a couple of arian sorcerers like Joyner and Frangipane you might ask?

The common them in this case was "Spiritual Warfare" ala NOLR/MSOG and re-packaged by church growth alchemist C. Peter Wagner. Look to the future however! Stay tuned!

1) Will Baptist pastor Dr. Greg Boyd don a black sequined cape and be commissioned as yet another "apostle to the nations" like the ones that Bill Hamon's "School for the Prophets" cranks out like sausage?

2) Perhaps the illustrious Dr. Boyd will see through what the NOLR really is and simply join a local Freemason lodge and be done with it...if he hasn't already. After all, there are many pastors in Minnesota who are already members of the lodge.

3) Will John Piper have hands laid on him by Frangipane or Joyner or Hamon or Wagner to become "Apostle" John Piper. Talk about upward mobility...

4) What will the Baptist General Council do about Piper and Wagner or Boyd and Wagner?

Piper can digress on Ephesians 5 all he wants in his Sunday Morning sermons, but they won't do him any good on judgment day and Boyd seems to be transcending into a New Age priest of Baal.

[Sandy (68.94.153.25)]

With these long posts we are going to have to switch to another board pretty quick.

Alot of the People who left MSI are going to the
Saddle Back baptist I was telling you about.

I visisted and I did notice more freedom and also they actually told how the building fund was doing right in the service and what was owed :0

I did find out that my MSI\EN Chruch is a member of Willow Creek. There is an online list.

ARe most EN chrches members of Willow Creek?

Have most of them been through 40 days?

I don't do seeker sensitive either for the same reason. In fact that is what opened my eyes.


Good coffee though!!

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Sandy, Just wondering how big is your former MSI church ? And also if you can inform them about this website.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Something that occured to me , thats extremely important, as I read what was posted in other website.In my former MSI/ENC never preaches the CROSS. Or even the Power of the Cross. All they know is Jesus died on the cross. That was it. I have been to a lot of MSI conferences, this topic NEVER came up.

Has any of you guys ever heard your pastor even teach this ?

[Rob Greene (24.30.90.205)]

Wow, thanks for all the commentary y'all... I've got a lot of reading to do it would seem!

How would you compare MSI/EN to something like Vineyard? I've got a TON of friends involved with Vineyard here in the Atlanta area, and any comparisons that could be made, whether good or bad, would help me understand more!

Also, with regard to the "seeker sensitive" concept... I don't know exactly what "seeker sensitive' church looks like, but I don't believe you could whole heartedly classify my church that way. Yes, we ARE sensitive to the reality that there are non-believers in our congregation each week, but while we sometimes use terms like "Christ-follower" or "Cross over the line of faith" synonymously with "Christian" and "be saved." These are more issues (in MY mind anyway) of modern terminology and semantics than a watered-down presentation of the gospel. I find that God is teaching me through His Word every Sunday when I am there.

As for the "mandatory, turn or burn cell groups," SCARY! Is this a staple of all MSI/EN churches, or can someone speak to a decidely different small group experience from their time at MSI/EN churches?

ANONYMOUS.114 - I don't really know much about John Piper, other than that he's spoken at a couple of PASSION events, such as OneDay '04. That really surprises me that PASSION would have him as their speaker if he's in the middle of such a predicament as you mentioned... interesting...

Thanks y'all, you're a tremendous help! I'm learning a lot!

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

Wow, Sandy... that was the first I heard that a Morning Star/Every Nation church was also part of Willow Creek!

Though I went to the Willow Creek association and I found that a church closely affiliated with my former church was also listed!

I wasn't aware that Morning Star allowed churches to be part of anything else besides MSI so this was total news to me.

In case anyone is interested, here is information about the Willow Creek Association on their own website: http://www.willowcreek.com/wca_info/

And anyone else can see if their church is listed on this site as well.

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

GG,

I can say that I have heard Leo Lawson teach that Christ's victory over Satan came in the wilderness... that the cross was "just" a celebration of that victory. The real victory was in the wilderness.

Direct quote: Jesus got that victory for us when he went into the wilderness. He went into the wilderness for 40 days and there he defeated the devil [. . .] Jesus got that victory for us in the wilderness, and what he did at the cross was just a triumph, a celebration of the victory that he had already gotten. He walked in that victory for three and a half years, and you, my friend, can walk in that same victory that he, as a human being, empowered by the same Holy Spirit that lives in you, you too as a human being can live in the same victory that he lived for three and a half years.

Colossians 2:15 does say that the cross was a triumph, but it doesn't say anything at all about the temptation in the wilderness being the real victory over sin and death rather than the cross. Maybe victory for Jesus, but it wasn't our victory too until His death on the cross and resurrection three days later!

So yes, I have heard Morning Star preach on the cross. Maybe not the best preaching on the cross, but the cross nonetheless.

ulyankee

[cass (63.189.201.4)]

to the kiddos who keep posting, and wondering why we don't get tired of this stuff: BECAUSE IT'S CHANGED OUR LIVES! i have JUST found this board today. i'm a former member of a MSI-affiliated church. i was there about a year, and have been "out" for about a year and a half. even to this day, i still have things come back to haunt me. and while i'm not so paranoid anymore, i'm still very suspicious about churches. i also just learned TODAY that MSI changed its name to Every Nation. i am not at all suprised, after all its history in Maranatha, etc. they have to keep changing their name to keep the cult-hounds off their trails...

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Welcome Cass.
Also this one occured to me too,
Edwin Cole heard somebody preach Kings and Priest and he really like it, so Ed Cole preach it too, and passes it to Tom Siratnak. In between 1998 - 99, Tom Preach KINGS AND PRIEST to the church and the whole church loves it except The leaders in the church, Almost everybody requested a tape of that preaching, Phil Bonasso NEVER released it.

I would suggest people should look into what is Kings and Priest is about. This is more about equipping the saints.

[Anonymous (68.212.35.251)]

Cass... welcome!

blessings,
ulyankee

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

198.54.202.115, I spoke with a friend who has been longer in MSI - Maranatha. According to her, The elitism came from Bob Weiner, Bob Weiner used to preach that maranatha is like the Green Beret, the elite military here in the U.S. Because Maranatha is one of the few who are reaching out to students. Thats how the elitism came about. and it carried on to MSI.

[Anonymous (198.54.202.115)]

One of the saddest manipulative techniques of the modern church and its corporate leadership style is to initially tell someone who complains or gives probing questions to a church leader is to reply to the person with some visible sympathy, even empathy and caring: "I hear what you are saying and you are correct" "Yes, we are human and make mistakes." In all of this they will listen and let you talk for a while to find out just how much you know. If you make a strong case or impression that causes embarrassment or challenges the status quo then you can be sure that questions will be asked about you. And then things can become difficult.

Your complaints may be triangulated. This is when another leader will be asked to address your concerns under the guise of it being their department, responsibility etc. So immediately one's problem is watered down or shifted and your initial problem is deflected to another dead-end channel.

. If they don't like what you are saying etc. you will be gently and firmly squeezed out and alienated. Under the pretence of holding you accountable, a person's church attendance, cell group membership, friendships and team participation will be scrutinised and questioned.

MSI is extremely concerned with putting its best foot forward in terms of showing off racial reconciliation etc. As a result tweaking the congregational mix becomes an exercise in social engineering in some places where sensitivity in this regard is high historically or currently. Intense teaching on servant leadership, ministry excellence, corporate vision and calling is undermined by an agenda that becomes over time extremely race, class, and ministry position conscious and thus sin-ridden. This includes the imposition of ministries such as Champions for Christ that may be wholly inappropriate to a particular church, but are subject to greater political agendas. In the smaller churches where student/graduate number balances are less important and where there is not an overly ambitious senior leader or a strategic ally important campus these problems won’t be so evident.

People become wary and cynical as they see the corporate ladder shaking with eager participants swayed by a man-pleasing, ambitious spirit. Some of them have tried climbing the ladder and have either failed to keep on or woken up on the way and have opted to leave.

I would seriously advise any former member NOT to get into 1 to 1 conversations with any current MSI leadership who read this forum and invite you to discuss your issues in detail and in private with a view to resolving them. If you do decide to debate or speak to them directly, get someone you trust to invigilate or keep it public. Don’t be gullible; then again I am preaching to the converted! Ha! Ha! One reason I won’t give my name publicly is that there are people that I still love and care for in the church and I don’t want to prejudice them or have them prejudiced.

As a matter of fairness I would suggest that people who have already exited and put forward specific EN/MSI/Victory/HP church and leader names do so in the spirit of wanting to either warn others to be careful, encourage change and be redemptive in heart hoping for reformation, repentance and God to move sovereignty in shaping His church. Rumours and personal anecdotes about individuals must be carefully weighed up and considered prior to making reference to them. Remember that we are all deceived in one area or more and that most MSI people really love Jesus. Also understand that such is the corporate structure of these churches that in many cases they are using the best leadership models and techniques that they can find. It just so happens that these are either not biblical or misapplied, and may be imposed or taught out of true ignorance. Sometimes we give people too much credit for understanding world systems, political and socio-economic realities and in interpreting the Word. We see in part. I believe the church needs to rethink the very way it is structured in many instances. A second reformation is at hand universally. This will see the demise of the rule of clergy.

Actually, even Bill Hamon’s idea of a saints movement is more attractive to me than the dry biscuit anti-restorationist religiosity that one member of this forum advocates.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Also, Rice Brookes is the second hand man of Bob Weiner. He is the next in line during the time of maranatha.

Rice Brookes was very well trained by Bob Weiner. Thats why a lot of maranatha practices and doctrines are still alive and well in MSI.

The testimony of the people during the time of maranatha , those who have left maranatha are still the same parallel to the testimony of the people who left MSI.

The abuse , control , elitism, favoritism , arrogance etc. all of that are still the same.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

VERY GOOD OBSERVATION 202.115. WHAT ANGERED ME MOST IN THIS PLACE WAS THAT THE CONFESSIONS I MADE TO MY "CELL GROUP LEADER" WERE SAID UNDER THE PRETENSE OF BEING "CONFIDENTIAL" BETWEEN ME AND HIM. ANYTIME I TOLD HIM SOMETHING WITHIN A WEEK OR TWO THE WHOLE CHURCH KNEW ABOUT IT, AND THEY WOULD TAKE THIS INFORMATION AND USE IT AGAINST ME !!! THIS PLACE WAS SO AGGRAVATING TO ME.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

64.12.117.20 I know exactly what you mean, My best friend , her best friend is one of the Pastor's wife. And she would tell her everything under the sun about one person ot another in the church and pass those information to me. Though I was not the victim, I was appalled at their behavior. I knew the whole church's business because the pastor's wife could not keep her mouth shut. The people who are under them that knew each other's business they think its a "priviledge" to know these kind of things.

Instead of being shock at the Pastor's wife behavior, they think its a "priviledge". I knew who got rebuke, I knew who got reprimanded, who got marriage problems, I KNEW ALL OF THAT !

I just shut my mouth to the whole thing.But one lesson I know is DO NOT TRUST THE PASTOR'S WIVES !

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

I have a question to all people who are still in MSI. IF , this is just IF one of your top apostle
is breaking the law, would you believed that he is still an apostle or not ? Or would you say , he did not know that was a crime.

[really (172.156.179.7)]

In response to GG....YES he would be "breaking the law" and YES I still would believe him to be an apostle because....HELLO! We all sin! Saying "he didn't know it was a crime" doesn't excuse him of breaking the law....hope that answers your question.

[really (172.156.179.7)]

......I have to ask because I'm a little discusted afte reading recent posts.


Do yall NOT see this as GOSSIP?!?!?!?!!?

[Anonymous (198.54.202.115)]

Gossip is talking about someone behind their back in relaying 2nd hand information . . .if it is personal and without purpose in changing people's beliefs and attitudes and is done simply to belittle, pass on information, scandalise and backbite then it is gossip. That is why I did propose that people not name specific names and people etc. unless they were certain of what they were relating.

AGAIN I WRITE:

As a matter of fairness I would suggest that people who have already exited and put forward specific EN/MSI/Victory/HP church and leader names do so in the spirit of wanting to either warn others to be careful, encourage change and be redemptive in heart hoping for reformation, repentance and God to move sovereignty in shaping His church. Rumours and personal anecdotes about individuals must be carefully weighed up and considered prior to making reference to them. Remember that we are all deceived in one area or more and that most MSI people really love Jesus. Also understand that such is the corporate structure of these churches that in many cases they are using the best leadership models and techniques that they can find. It just so happens that these are either not biblical or misapplied, and may be imposed or taught out of true ignorance. Sometimes we give people too much credit for understanding world systems, political and socio-economic realities and in interpreting the Word. We see in part. I believe the church needs to rethink the very way it is structured in many instances

Really . . .gossip is an idle practise . . .the obvious sincerity and concern posted by people here reveals that it is a serious issue and not part of trivial gossip. Please don'ty attempt to belittle people's experiences and concerns by labelling them as gossip. The number of people who have posted here shows me that the defects and abuses within MSI are actually greater or more widespread then I had initiallyn imagined. Pray and ask God if it is just gossip and if it is, then it is your Christian duty to point out the actual gossip or to not read any of this at all. Separate meat from bones and chafff from wheat! The fact that this board has grwon so rapidly over the last few weeks is very interesting. For people in EN/MSIVIC/HP it is a wake up call to leave or change and for others who have endured abuse, depression, slander and a lack of love from their supposed brethren it is encouragement and support showing that they are not alone in their experiences. You may be baffled by what you read here . . .this stuff is foreign to you and out of your ewalm of experience either because your church is different or you are ignorant and naive. I would hope that your rexperiences are all good, though. Nevertheless, to come across such a site with these postings is either a revelation, education or confirmation for many people.

[Anonymous (68.212.35.251)]

FYI,

What I posted before re: Leo Lawson's teachings was not gossip.

That was verbatim from a preaching that I heard first hand.

I have already gone through the Biblical channels regarding those teachings. They were not heard. Those teachings were defended. The problem was instead mine for not accepting them. Or perhaps I misunderstood what he said.

However, the context of the entire series of teachings show that it was exactly what I thought it was. Because otherwise sin and death would have died with Jesus on the cross. No, we addtionally need to be delivered of our sins, curses, etc. after salvation. "All Christians have demons" (another direct quote). The cross apparently isn't enough.

I have since learned that those teachings are taken from CP Wagner and Charles Kraft (Fuller Theological Seminary).

Regardless of the religious or academic credentials of whoever is ultimately responsible for these false teachings, I will not accept another Christ or a another Gospel other than the ones entrusted to us by the saints.

2 John 1:9-11: "Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work."

That's pretty serious stuff!!! So I can't just ignore this!!! Otherwise I share in the wicked work!!! This was ultimately why I felt I had no choice but to leave Morning Star International.

So now I am exercising my Biblical responsibility to avoid and mark a false teacher (Rom 16:17).

.115, you are absolutely correct--we should not engage in hearsay. Also, it is fruitless to continue to engage in one on one debate with a defender of the movement. I instead pray for them, that their eyes may be opened.

I am personally very uncomfortable with gossip. I also don't think it's particularly Christ-like behavior for some who are active here to stand back and taunt those of us who have suffered abuses, unchristian teachings, etc. at the hands of this organization, accusing us of making unwarranted accusations. But that is just my opinion... you may take it or leave it. By the way, I know you say that your organization is not a cult, but belittling detractors is is a classic cult practice... so you may be wise not to discredit your organization as the very thing that you say that it is not.

"Cult apologists generally defend their views by claiming to champion religious freedom and religious tolerance. However, they tend to be particularly intolerant toward those who question and critique the movements they defend" (from http://www.countercult.com/c11.html#ref3 (http://www.countercult.com/c11.html)).

I intercede in prayer for my former church and for Morning Star leaders. And I am praying for you, whoever you are.

Thanks again, .115 for pointing these things out to us.

blessings,
ulyankee

[IWoke Up!! (66.142.26.137)]

Well I was in a Morningstar/EveryNation Church for many many years and I thank my Lord Jesus I fianlly woke up!! and The heroes of my life (besides Jesus) are the watchmen on the walls who warn people like Paul did daily about these apostacies that are invading Christianity.
THANKYOU THANKYOU THANKYOU!!!!
And I thank Jesus My Lord and my SAVIOR that the way MSI\EN does church is not the way he would have it to be.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Really,
no I did not gossip, I am wondering just how blinded people can be, just if they break the law and how far you will stay faithful and loyal in there. There are people like you, I used to be one, till the Holy Spirit woke me up.

Yes, we all sinned. Jesus knew all of that. But breaking a law and committing a crime is something that I do not do nor a right minded christian would do. Even those who left MSI and are in here posting.

There is no testimony in here will change your mind. Not even God's Word, I have seen how you are so willing to exchange God's Word for the MSI Words. And I can be wrong on this but reading what was posted about the apostles plus the possible crime. Currently thats just convince me thats where you stand.

Unless you can further explain to me more...

[really (172.133.2.214)]

GG.....I'm not saying you DO gossip......sigh...forget it, just go read your own posts please.

2pp....
huh? Are you talking about our governmental laws/crimes or GOD's law? What are you talking about? My answer to your question above was not unclear. I was referring to GOD's law. Isn't that what we're talking about? And I still don't know what the point of that question even was.

(pp3) And furthermore...don't insult me my saying that I don't take the Word of God seriously. This has NOTHING to do with "MSI's words" whatever that's supposed to mean. Don't ask me a question that has nothing to do with the rest of the converstaion, analyze my answer and TWIST it.

and explain to you WHAT...To be honest, you really ticked me off just now. I've never seen someone twist words like that in my LIFE.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Really,

I am not talking about breaking God's Law. I am talking about state and federal law.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

LET me rephrase the whole question. IF One of your apostle is committing a state and federal law, would you still believed that he is an apostle ? A crime that is agaisnt the law of this land.

[Anonymous (198.54.202.115)]

CG

If that is the case then be specific. Also explain what the damage, fallout etc. of these wrongdoings are, bearing in mind that we all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

[really (172.133.2.214)]

GG, how many times was Paul thrown in jail

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Really, I am not talking about God's Law. IF he was thrown in jail because he is obeying God, then thats different.
198.54.202.115 The damage , I don't know how big since they have been hiding it for almost 20 years I think. ANd there is a possibility that he would lose everything he has. that means property homes, furniture, money if the authorities find out about it.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

198.54.202.115 I don't know if there is jail time, Probably just financial penalty, the fallout, the church would lose the tax exempt status.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

198.54.202.115
I would rather also leave them alone with what they are doing.
The law would catch up to them eventually. I think it was also done out of ignorance of the law. Just careless.

[Anonymous (198.54.202.115)]

Best leave it for now

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

198.54.202.115 ,
go to this website.

http://www.pastorray.com/pastorray/pastrray.nsf/1054FB0EF308F59385256E6E0007F629/4D2E2844A00D170A85256E6F001A6DC7?OpenDocument

here is a sample of Pastor Ray teaching entitled Mother side of the ministry


1 Thess 2:6-7
"…as the apostles of Christ...
we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children:
The Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 2:6-7 KJV

Our culture has finally come to understand that one of the great sociological problems in America is the lack of functioning fathers. Churches, too, have come to understand the need for spiritual "fathers" and the new apostolic churches stress the importance of headship, spiritual authority and "covering". We are recapturing the "Father" side of ministry.

=============
I do totally believe in spiritual fathers, but Jesus never summon a man nor apostles to replace the Headship of the church.Jesus will always be the Head of the church. And the doctrine of Covering is not even biblical nor any way support it, We are only covered by Christ and Christ alone. I have challenge the MSI leaders and told them, "are you telling me that Christ's blood or His Spirit is insufficient enough for my covering that I am going to need the pastor's covering or the church covering ?"

============

Then also listen to the Power of Purified Imagination. The first 5 minutes of it, I was already in shock of what he said, on how to win the lost, is to do the same thing as the Babylonian did, Unity, communication and Purified imaginations.

What happened to Jesus said, Lift up the Son of Man , that I may drew them ....
The reason why The tower of Babel was CURSED is because everything they are doing was done by the flesh , and they will achieved it but not God's way of doing things....

198.54.202.115 go there and listen to his preaching

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

GG - do you know a pastor named pastor Joon ( I may be spelling it wrong. It is pronounced like the month of June)?

[Anonymous (198.54.202.115)]

I don't have to listen to it. The party line is that every senior leader is ultimately the godfather. Many of these guys did not have proper fathering themselves . . .the one who did are somewhat baffled at the obsession over it all. Then the crap about being good sons translates into being obedient man-pleasers. Some of it borders on homo eroticism. Dogs cover bitches! Who covers Rice and who covers Bob and who covers the pope. This stuff is sick. And Little Lord Fauntleroy?!! Movie of the month?? The guy is whacko.God is my dad and I ain't gonna call a man daddy. Spiritual fathers and mentors can only be called fathers when they earn it . . .not by divine right or positional authority, but by the fact that they have fought the fight, gone through the fire and past the tests . . .I am not into making some American daddy-complex dude my spiritual father. Yuck!!

I quote from this Ray guys site:\
Leaders Are "Fruit Inspectors"


This newsletter is for Leaders; Business owners, supervisors and managers as well as Pastors and Teachers. And here's the bottom line: if we want to be Christ-like Leaders, we will be "fruit inspectors".

Christian Leaders ought to expect growth, increase and profitability in our personal lives as well as in the arena of our Leadership. If our church isn't growing, if our business isn't making a profit, if someone on our staff is not producing, it's up to us to do something about it!

Christians in leadership roles too often put up with poor profitability on the bottom line, sub-par performance from staff members or unfruitful devotional lives, and give a "religious" reason for not dealing with the issues.

Go inspect your own #$%#$^% fruit you fruitcake! This stuff really ****es me off. For the morally conscious "****" was in the orinal Tyndale Bible. I will leave out soime other Anglo-Saxon for now. Sick Sick Sick!!!

[Anonymous (198.54.202.115)]

Whew! "
MOVIE CLASSICS FOR CHRISTIANS"
by
Pastor Ray

(This one had me giggling . . .after blowing off that steam. In this one he harks back to the great movie stars such as Clark Cable comparing him to George Clooney and implying Clooney doesn't come close. I have news for Ray, Clark swung both ways dude and you wouldn't have found him in church on Sunday (pity Mel is a Catholic, hey? He doesn't crack a mention in the divine movie despatches):

"I honestly feel sorry for this present generation when it comes to the subject of movies. There are no great "movie stars" anymore. Anyone who knows the work of those listed below, if honest, would have to admit that the group on the left has it over the group on the right hands down!

Bette Davis Jennifer Anniston
Clark Gable George Clooney
James Stewart Richard Gere
Spencer Tracy Gene Hackman (A fine actor)
Elizabeth Taylor Jennifer Lopez
James Dean Brad Pitt
Joan Fontaine Cameron Diaz

The sad thing is that so many young people under 21 have never even heard of the group on the right!

I also grieve for the thousands of Christian families who will browse through Blockbuster Video stores today searching for something decent to show the family tonight. As Pastor Rice Broocks has so aptly stated,

"Finding a decent movie at Blockbuster
is like looking for a biscuit in a dumpster."
In my own small way, I'm going to attempt to give my readers a solution.
I'm going to begin to do movie reviews that recommend great films from the past. I'm not a film critic, but I do know great stories that present Christian values when I see them, and I think you'll thank me when you've watched them. There are hundreds of great movies your family needs to see!"

Some of the films I will recommend are not especially suitable for children, but not because they are vulgar or contain nudity. There are some great films that just wouldn't hold a child's attention or deal with themes that children aren't old enough to understand and appreciate. (Let's face it, most kids need a little "action" in their films). Nevertheless, I'm ready to take a stab at it."

"Subscribe to this free service by clicking on "e-mail to pastorray" at the pastorray.com website, and look for your "Classics for Christians" movie reviews to start soon!"
In the interest of promoting cultural literacy"

Ha! Ha! Ha! Soon coming to a Every Nation Church near you a classic movie revival to reach generation X, Y and Z. Baby boomer box office classics. It must be big in MSI cause I've heard pastors quote from these movies before. Sure is topical.

I think this one made me loose it tonight CG. You win this one. Talk about a horse named "trigger".

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

152.163.101.13 , yes I know him. I have already express my concern about whats happening in MSI to him.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

198.54.202.115 you are right one this one, Who is Rice's former spiritual father ? What kind of training did you get from your spiritual father ? I never even thought of that one before.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

205. here is my friend answer, finally just got it right now.

, I have not heard the phrase "telling the lies of Satan' in combination with the judgements:
rebellious, bitter, jezebel, independent, and backsliding. However, all of the judgements are typical of a Pharisee-type religious christian. These christians fall into pride and begin judging actions instead of looking for wisdom for insight to the attitude of the hearts of people. Remember that God sees the heart. Man judges on the outside. Jesus was always under the autority of the Father and led by the Spirit. The railing judgements he gave were only to the Pharisees, never to the sinner. Take a look at scripture. This will help you discern. When judgements occur, it is an indication of a christian walking in the flesh. The funny thing is that the religious type of christian, accuses others of being accusational. Notice the word "accuse". Judging someone totally by their actions or appearance is an act of accusing itself. Accusing the bretheren is what they are doing, which never bears the fruit of the Spirit for it cannot. It cannot produce true repentance in someone's life. Only a feigned obedience. The love of God leads one to repentance. The flesh brings corruption, but the Spirit brings life and peace. Unfortunately, it is hard to find peace and true acceptance in a ministry like MSI. This is because there is the judgmental pride which so easily develops in a ministry which preaches strong commitment to obeying the word of God. Think about it however. The obedience that Jesus called others to, was only found in two commandents. Love the Lord and Love your neighbor. It is quite simple. Jesus was all over the Pharisees for laying heavy burdens on the people for obedience. He didn't say to read your bible an hour a day, pray tongues every day, demand holiness, obedience to Himself or else. He only called for the loving of the Lord, and others. Out of compassion Jesus did everything. When you recieve an accusation from someone next time, why don't you ask them why they choose to follow the ways of the Pharisees rather than the ways of the Lord? Just a thought.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Listen everybody go to this website and compare how Steve murrel preaching and Pastor Ray preaching

then you will understand why Steve Murrell is winning more people to the LOrd and the way he is doing it is very effective.

http://www.victory.org.ph/messages/

I admire his preaching and the way the Holy Spirit move in him.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

GG - I was listening to a teaching video that Pastor Stever Murrell made while training msi/en leadership this year. He said something to two people in the audience - Pastor Joon and GG. If this was you, then you are clearly high in the msi/en leadership rankings. Does Pastor Joon and Pastor Steve know that you are speeking so poorly of their christian family on this board?

[GG (172.198.243.40)]

205.188.117.20 no that was not me. I have not step into MSI for 4 years now. ANd yes , Jun knows I said some things against MSI. They all know about it too. Except Steve. I have not spoken to him for years.

[GG (172.198.243.40)]

If I have a chance, I would have told that to Steve though.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

GG - ok - sounds like GG must be a popular name. It sounds like it could also be Pastor Jun's wifes name. My first thought when I heard it was that you could be pastor Jun's wife. That would make things more interesting for sure. I think I have definitely spent to much time on this board. I am starting to get the gossip spirit.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

205.188.117.20 , you have never spend time with Steve and Jun, or you will never had asked me this question
=================

Does Pastor Joon and Pastor Steve know that you are speeking so poorly of their christian family on this board?
======================

First, If I say anything so poorly against MSI, the first question that would come out from their mouth is "what happened ?"

And when I told them about what happened,
You will never hear an excuse or even try to defend MSI. OR even the worse, that some of MSI would state "don't say anything bad about MSI "they are the Lord's anointed" , .THEY ARE NOT IMMATURE.

They take everything to heart. Thats how much I know them. And try to discern everything what I say is true.

ALSO, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who left MSI in Phil Bonasso church TRUST JUN and Steve. BUT they would never trust Phil. Because almost every single person who left MSI also worked with Jun and Steve in the early 80's , they spend time with them ALONE in the philippines. ANd knows they can be trusted. Phil Bonasso used to send his people to the philippines and a lot of people went to the philippines. The fact is, everybody who left still loves these two men.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Pastor Jun's wife , her name is Gigi.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

OK just got this from a friend who used to be pastors in MSI. And here is their answer.


The response for the question. Was there any formal training on the teaching of the judgements "disobedience, rebellious, independent, backsliding. bitter and jezebel"?

No there wasn't any "formal" teaching. Rather a mix of reaction to spiritual warfare, attitudes of people, and the gathering of ideas on how to operate a Spirit-filled church and raise up powerful leaders from scripture and various books.. (Satan tried to used scripture against Jesus then and now).
According to my perspective, I remember years back being assigned to read different bible based books that were taught in leaderhip training. These were read back in the time of Maranatha. The teachings were informal, but developed into a sort of theology, and then became a sort of truth to the leaders there. Over time they got handed down to the following generation of leaders and then passed down again. The books were various and I am not sure that I know of them all. Some taught on authority, some on casting out of devils and inner healing, blood covenant and more. Some ideas were thrown out, and others were kept. Being that Maranatha and MSI began by seeking out revelation from the Holy Spirit, some ways of operation came from revelation. Whether these ways of operating or revelations were based in truth or not, probably can be determined by their fruit. Again look at the result in church and in the lives of people. Is the end result of so -called "truth "
life and peace or corruption? You do need the Holy Spirit to give you this discernment, and it needs to be backed up by scripture. "Keep on seeking and keep on asking and you will find." "Lift your voice for understanding." "Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies." Your, Friend

[Anonymous (68.52.214.120)]

I have been lurking on the Maranatha EN/MSI boards for a while now and I can stay silent no longer. Some people I love have been deeply hurt by EN/MSI, and I have been as well.

This board has helped me to see the truth of what is wrong with EN/MSI and its foundations and for that I am grateful. There is much I could add to this dialog, but I will abstain because there are people I care about that could get hurt and I don't believe that posting any more such things is beneficial to anyone, beyond making myself temporarily feel better by venting my anger.

Here is my two cents worth: Seek the Lord with your whole heart. If you seek, you will find. God rewards those who diligently seek Him. Read the Word for yourself and follow God. Fear the Lord, which is the beginning of wisdom, and do not be a man pleaser. At the end of your days, you must answer to God, not a man, not a pastor, not an apostle. God makes each one of us unique, each with our own giftings. Each member of the body is different and each is important, whether we are rich or poor, an athlete or a janitor, a man or a woman. God loves and values each the same, so show each other the same love that God shows us. And the single most important thing...

LOVE

As your eyes are opened and you step into the light of day, don't forget to pray for those still in the dark. If we fail to love and to pray for those who hurt us, we've missed the point. We may say to the mountain, "move, get out of my way", but it means nothing if we don't show God's love to the people He has placed in our path.

Matt 5: 43-45 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.

Matt 22:37-40 Jesus replied, "'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the other commandments and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments."

1 Cor. 13:1-3 If I could speak in any language in heaven or on earth but didn't love others, I would only be making meaningless noise like a loud gong or a clanging cymbal. If I had the gift of prophesy, and if I knew all the mysteries of the future and knew everything about everything, but didn't love others, what good would I be? And if I had the gift of faith so that I could speak to a mountain and make it move, without love I would be no good to anybody. If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn't love others, I would be of no value whatsoever.

[Sandy (65.70.111.248)]

120, I know what you mean about speaking out
That is what love is all about.
Because we care about other people who are still
struggling as we were we will continue to warn
night and day as Paul said in Acts 20:

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

This also is my commitment to anyone the Lord
puts in my path and it is because of love
for the true Body of Christ.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

120 Yes - thank you for your input. I am sorry you were hurt also. I do agree that these discussions are not resolving anything.

Proverbs 18
19 An offended brother is more unyielding than a fortified city, and disputes are like the barred gates of a citadel.

In 1 Peter 2:8, Jesus was described as A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE.

We are all going to get hurt and offended in life. It is what we chose to do with it that is intereting to God.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

The discussion will always continue as long as there are secrets in MSI. Like example the financial statement of the ministry were never shown. Unlike most regular churches would show their financial statement to the church for accountability, this is done yearly. Even Creflo Dollar Ministry, though a lot of people don't like him, Yearly, he would show that to his church. and they do have 30,000 or more members in his church. than entire MSI in the united State combined.

2. It will not stop also because MSI leaders denies all of these has not happened. in other words, living in denial.

Example Hugh Grant, in the past DID admit that he solicit a prostitue, immedietly the media stop hounding him.

but Bill Clinton denies the affairs and its so obvious that he is hiding it, the media would not stop hounding him.

If there is truly nothing wrong with MSI, then all of this would have stop automatically, you will only have disgruntled few, only a few post here and there. But that did not happen.

If you go to the other factnet, Creflo dollar ministry have only less than 20 complaints compare here in MSI.

Greg Dickaw had a few complaints and he used to be a maranatha.

The question in the past has always been what happened to the money , WORLD PARTNER. Nobody can seem to answer that. ALso if you look into www.everynation.org World Partner is only used to plant churches, and yet the people in the philippines said, No money was ever sent there instead it is way around, they are the one who send it here. And they are the one who plant more churches world wide.

Even if the money was used for church plant, where is the financial statement ? There are a lot of question that MSI leaders do try to avoid, and as Joyce Meyers said, the only way out is THROUGH.

There are things needed to be addressed that MSI refuses to do address. Instead what was said to me we are NOT ALLOWED TO QUESTION the LEADERS.

So the few MSI here try to discredit a few people here and there, with smallest details of things. And one exaggerate how great MSI is. Instead of looking at the big picture asking WHY did this happened ? And investigate like the Philippine church is doing now, Now a lot of them finding out not only by words but by experiencing it themselves.

so this discussion will not stop unless it is address HEAD On. Not like trying to flex their spiritual muscle and positional authority and trying to intimidate people. But to act like a true brother in Christ and sit down and talk about , which all MSI leaders are afraid of.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Another things that needed to be addressed is this. What happened to Greg Ball ?

Greg Ball immediete disappearance from the limelight and all we hear from the MSI leaders was he was on sabbatical. A normal leader who would go on into sabbatical would announced it himself. NOT by the MSI leaders. Then we found out later that Paul Daniel, was also announced by the MSI leaders that he was on Sabbatical. NOW, he does not even exist in the apostolic council. MSI leaders is always counting that in time we would forget the people who are in sabbatical.
So if MSI leaders consider a leader in "sin" they would just announced that they are on "sabbatical" ? People here are NOT as guillible as before where whatever the leader say is like FROM GOD. They said it, so I believed it.
People now can figure things out that things does not seem right. Whether by scriptures or not. Its In there guts, they knew something is wrong thats called the Promptings of the Holy Spirit .
People do asked questions now. And yet MSI leaders would try to suppress those questions.

The year is almost over, So far I have not seen Greg ball stepping back in. I am still wondering if he would even come back in and there is still 2 -3 months to go. Till the sabbatical is over.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

GG - you just proved proverbs 18:19 to be true. In the long run, fighting scripture with accusations and gossip will get you nowhere. Greg Ball's business is none of your business. Yes, there are over 20 complaints about msi, but I think most have been from you. I doubt the total count of people on this board testifying against msi/en is more than 20 and most of their complaints are about hurts. They are not problems with the churchs beliefs. The people who do have problems with their beliefs can't agree on what is truth.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

205.188.117.20 , Greg Ball is nothing compare whats truly happening in there. You can deny it, shut the door, close your ears, even try to use scriptures to justify everthing in there. As I said, God has started the shaking.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

GG - At least I am trying to use scripture instead of posting peoples personal issues. I think you are trying to do the shaking not God. Time will tell.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

205.188.117.20 time will definitely tell.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

GG - I hope you are not mistaking pruning as God's wrath. Pruning happens in churches and in peoples hearts. It is a good thing. It is a necessary part of growth. People may go through season's of pruning, but in the long run - if they keep their eyes on Jesus - it is a great thing.

John 15:2
He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

205.188.117.20 no , itd definitely not pruning, thats what Phil Bonasso church also said. When you prunes its becomes fruitful. Its been 4 years that church has not recovered. so Its not pruning.

[Sandy (68.94.152.5)]

That is interesting about Greg Ball
Was he not one at the top of the pyramid?

When did he come up missing.

I don't worry about talking to the Stepford
Clones

I got enough of them at my old church

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

Sandy - wow!! That is a whole new level of hateful.

GG - looks like you have a choice to make - stay on the high road or gossip with Sandy about Greg Ball.

[another brick in the wall (68.52.137.63)]

#13,
Welcome to the board. Haven't seen you that much in the postings. Maybe you can take this opportunity to share with the board your views on the current Every Nation/Morning Star and Latter Rain teachings? It sounds like you are very insightful and have alot to add to the present convo. Your input is welcomed.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

152.163.101.13 WOW !aren't you in a judgemental spirit. Nothing has happened yet and you are already accusing prople of things. You sure are a MSI.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

152.163.101.13 they should give you an award, title, position, You definitely conform to an MSI image.

[Sandy (64.218.243.65)]

We need people like 13 you know this board would
probably dry up and blow away :}
If they didnt come in and stir things up.

The only reason we have to research the truth out
is because we have to counter the apostacies.
Its kind of like Chaos and Control (Maxwell Smart)
With no apostacies countercult groups would not exst.

Thanks 13

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

Sandy - where is that in the bible? You want to know where the truth is?

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

[Sandy (65.70.111.28)]

I always agree with scripture

What is the point you are making??

That scripture sounds like the point WE are
making

So I am glad we finally agree.

[Anonymous (198.54.202.115)]

"I doubt the total count of people on this board testifying against msi/en is more than 20 and most of their complaints are about hurts."

I disagree on your sentiment . . . hurts are one thing, but abuse, misconduct, lies, arrogance, ungodliness, dysfuntionality and power-mongering are evils that should not be wished away, but actively confronted, dealt with and eradicated. Saying that everyone gets hurt is patronising to prophetci people who have seen the large and dangerous problems in the movement and have overcome their religiosity, fear and persecution to speak out.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

.115 I am not at all saying these hurts were not from abuses. But, the bible has clear instruction on how to handle hurts/offenses. It does not limit it's instruction to minor hurts. As difficult as it is, these biblical instructions apply to even the most extreme hurts/abuses like rape and murder.

Brick, 13 and lc 20 are the same person. Sorry, my number has been changing again.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

.115 One more thought. If there have been abuses that cross the line from character flaws to illegal acts, then we should use the authorities that God has put in place to protect ourselves. That is why God gave us government.

[GG (172.193.186.39)]

152.163.101.13, MSI is already being sued.

[GG (172.193.186.39)]

They already did cross the line.

[Sandy (65.70.109.227)]

Anon 84- I am just now trying to trace alot of your documentation Thanks for putting all of this
out for us.
I was in my church for 15+years and didn't know
a thing about any of this.
Also my church didn't have the controlling
thing going as far as peoples personal lives
They were secretive about the church itself
And the pastor was wonderfuly diplomatic
He acted like he realy cared when anyone had
a question. The assistant pastors and staff did
all the bulldog work for him.
That is why it took so long for me to catch on
IT wasn't till I found a link to Wagner and
studied what he was into that everything they
had been saying over the years made sense
and I realize what "vision for transformation" meant.

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

152.163.101.13 -

Several people in my church went to the leaders and tried to implore them to turn the evidence of illegal activities (embezzlement and illegal obtainment of prescription drugs) over to the legal authorities. We were told that it should stay in "in-house" matter and that if we went to legal authorities, it would expose the conditions of our hearts.

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

Also, as a P.S. to my post above -

Sad to say, the two issues that crossed legal lines - the embezzlement and the illegal drug obtainment and usage - were the least damaging of all the atrocities that occurred at my former Maranatha churches. The more damaging issues can not be purused legally, as they do not break governmental laws, but they sue do cross moral and Godly lines. So many people have been damaged by the abuse of authority, the deception, and the mental abuse and mind control. That is what is even sadder. There aren't legal avenues for pursuing that, yet that is what has caused the most damage.

I'd also like to say that many of us in our church tried over the years to Biblically address the issues by going to the leaders and pastor with our concerns. We were also told not to question authority and to repent for our rebellious attitudes. Everything was always twisted to where anyone - ANYONE - with questions or concerns came out as looking like the bad guy and the was labelled a trouble-maker, rebuked both privately and publicly. I suspect most, if not all, of the other MSI and former Maranatha churches that are represented by the hurting people on this board silenced and abused them as well, leaving them no Biblical ways to handle their concerns.

I am SO TIRED of the ones who have been hurt having all the responsibility on them as to handle concerns properly. WHAT ABOUT THE LEADERSHIP? WHERE IS THEIR RESPONSIBLITY TO HANDLE THINGS IN THE BIBLICAL WAY AND ORDER? The double-standard stinks. It reeks. And it is destructive and brings death, not life.

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

I can say for myself that most of my postings have focused on Morning Star International's theology and practices... not personal hurts or abuses.

My contention is that the issues that we've been discussing here go much further than "spiritual abuse."

I have heard another Christ and another gospel being preached. Not just in my former church either but also coming from the fellowship's headquarters and from its top leaders.

I know current members do not agree with my assessment, but imho it is pretty difficult to argue that the following teachings are considered orthodox, especially since some of these are (or are based in) historic heresies:

--that we are literally Christ on earth since Christ is no longer physically here (rather than just representing Christ as the Body of Christ)
--that we have the authority and mandate to take all earth under our dominion as Christ on earth
--that the authority and voice of spiritual leaders equals/is the same as God's authority and voice
--that the Holy Spirit speaks to us primarily (if not exclusively) through spiritual leaders
--that if the Holy Spirit speaks to us directly and it is not confirmed by a leader, then it must not be the Holy Spirit
--that receving gifts of the Holy Spirit is independent of salvation... that even unrepentant sinners can receive those gifts
--that Christ was a "man of God" who became perfectly indwelled with the Holy Spirit at the time of His baptism, and that we too can live as Christ did for the last three and a half years of his life (otherwise known as Dynamic Monarchianism)
--that Christ got us victory over sin not at the cross but in the wilderness
--that we along with the rest of the New Apostolic Reformation are opening up portals to the second realm--that of angels and demons
--that we are tripartate beings--body, soul, spirit--allowing us to be indwelled by demons after salvation (this is actually a much more widespread teaching than just within MSI, but the roots of this teaching comes from Plato and Zoroastrianism rather than Christianity)
--that the only way that we will follow our spiritual leaders and become totally unified as a church is to become "drunk in the spirit" through worship and lose our senses, just like the disciples became drunk in the spirit in the upper room in Acts. If we come to our senses and start questioning our leaders or what we are becoming involved in, the solution is to become drunk in the spirit again

etc.

So my primary issue is not abuse. My issue is false teachings. We are to avoid and mark false teachers.

blessings,
ulyankee

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

Ulyankee,

Thank you for this post regarding the heretical and twisted doctrine taught in MSI/Marantha-based churches. I was taught EVERY one of those points you listed.

I think the spiritual abuse and the false doctrined go hand-in-hand. When a church teaches that only the leaders hear God, then people sitting under those leaders will be discounted if they have discernment apart from the leaders and they will be silenced if what they discern is different than the leaders. When a church teaches that the voice of the pastor is equal/likened to the voice of the Lord, then no one else will be given a voice when he/she sees concerns and red flags in the teaching.

I wanted to add a couple of more items to your list of things I experienced and was taught by my pastor, if that is OK:

- My pastor instructed us to have no fellowship with people who had left our church. To do so would divide our loyalty to him and the church and would put us in danger of coming into agreement with what he deemed their rebellion and false beliefs when they left the church. He also taught that fellowship outside of our church walls would weaken us as a church. This is definitely heretical.

- We were taught a very twisted concept of loyalty to man, regardless of his actions. We were taught that we should support our pastor and remain "in covenant" no matter what, even if we felt God was calling us out of that church. To contemplate leaving him and "breaking covenant" with him and the other church leaders was likened to divorce and would place us out of the will of the Lord. He told us we would come up before the throne of judgment if we broke covenant. VERY heretical.

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

.135,

I totally agree that spiritual abuse and false doctrines go hand in hand. False doctrines lead to false practices.

This is why my focus has been on the theology. That is the root of the problem. If one focuses only on the abuse, then the root is never dealt with, and the problem will keep occurring.

That's why the Maranatha "break up" didn't solve the problem, and why we are dealing with the exact same issues now in Morning Star International as well as in some other former Maranatha churches like yours (and .84's) 15-20 years later. Because the focus at the time (1980s) was on the abuses and excesses... both on the part of those in Maranatha and on the part of those trying to expose the practices of the movement. The root theology was not fully dealt with. Morning Star International/Maranatha believes, teaches, and practices essentially the same things today as it did 10, 15, 20 years ago.

And Scripture teaches that evil goes from bad to worse (2 Tim 3:13).

We must instead hold fast to the truth of Scripture (2 Tim 3:14-17).

ulyankee

[Anonymous (198.54.202.115)]

The disciplinary and relational protocol referred to above, applies to persons who are covenant members of a particular church. During a church ceremony where I received a membership certificate I found that it referred to a covenant of membership that I had entered into. By this, the person is actually promising to agree to be a biblically based congregant or member of a church. It said that the right hand of fellowship had been extended to me. Even when this hand of fellowship is withdrawn by either party there are also Christian principles by which we should relate, but that is for a different posting than this one)

It is a public declaration of agreement in becoming a member of a church. Agreement with the vision of the church, to attend the church in a participatory manner by practical service and corporate worship, to receive the gifts and teachings of the church, and to become receptive to the authority, anointing and wise counsel of the church’s elders. (There are also other points I haven’t listed.)

This relationship is to be governed by God and His Word and through the form of the church elders who are set in relational and governmental authority in the church. This authority is a God-ordained position of office.

The eldership of the church has a God-given responsibility to adhere to Biblical standards and protocols when addressing relational issues, grievances and difficulties. In the process of performing these, amongst other duties, he/she needs to bear in mind the vision and calling of the church, the unity of the church and seek to hear from God in guiding and forming decisions through both prayer and scripture. The elder’s primary responsibility is firstly to serve God, and then to serve the sheep and his church and lastly his/her fellow elders.

The member has a responsibility to respect and follow this God-ordained authority according to the standard of the Word and where it does not violate his/her conscience.

To be an active member of the church one needs to be receptive to the eldership of that church. If I am upset, angered or hurt by something said or done in that church, especially with those in authority, then I need to approach the relevant person or persons and in the correct manner and order. In the same way, I am entitled to be treated and respected in the correct way as well. My grievances and queries must be addressed,

In a previous posting a person said that offended persons are difficult to change and appeal to and quoted Proverbs 18v19 “ A brother offended is harder to win than a strong city, and contention are like the bars of a castle”

Hence our need for elders, I say!

Proverbs 21v22 says:

“A wise man scales the city of the mighty and brings down the trusted stronghold.”

Doing this in a Godly manner may be done through various ways, but in each it is not done to destroy, further offend and hurt the person, but to deal with ungodly issues in his life or in the lives of the people being complained about. It is not about protecting special interests or keeping secrecy.

All of this should be done with the attitude to build the kingdom of God together in unity in a spirit of humility and servanthood and not to close ranks on an elite brotherhood for the sake of the brotherhood’s roundtable.

If a person feels they have exhausted his/her means of appeal to the elders and that they no longer feel open or receptive to all or some of the eldership of that church then the person is entitled to leave. Likewise if the vision or mission strategy of the church is not agreeable to that person, then they can find a church where they feel at home and in agreement.

The higher a person’s office the more they must stand accountable. Not just to fellow officers, but also to other believers as well. Now this is where I feel that some churches in the MSI fall short. They have very gifted leaders, but because of leadership cliques, internal political power-mongering, an obsession with some on applying secular business principles to church management, the untouchable seniority of some senior pastors/apostles and a desire to serve each other before serving the sheep that things have fallen apart. The centre cannot hold if the centre is a mortal man. The centre should be Christ.

In some churches I believe that because of its legacy, the evangelistic offices and apostolic gifting have dominated to a detrimental degree over the other church offices. Men who were never called to be pastors thus take the titled office of pastor. Pastors that are called to be pastors and have come out of the original MSI/Maranatha establishment or direct churches descendant form it have these men as their role models and continue a legacy of dysfunction depending on who has trained them. You will note that the title of pastor is in most MSI churches a blanket one given to all the 5-fold ministers, which I find quite baffling.

Here I attach a sermon outline that I found from the website of a South African MSI church in Grahamstown:

Lessons from the shipwreck

¨ Never exalt charisma above character; gifts of the Spirit above fruit of the Spirit.
¨ It is better to rule your spirit than take the city (Prov 16:32).
¨ Never be more impressed with outward appearances, but rather with the heart.
¨ Never put human leaders on a pedestal. Keep your faith Christ-centred, not man centred.
¨ A man can destroy in a moment with his character what he has built over a lifetime with his gift.
¨ Remember that you can fall from any level in this lifetime.
¨ Trust your discernment and read the signs.
¨ Never think that you or anybody else can graduate from the basics.
¨ Never think that your church or movement are the Church of the fullness of the Kingdom. (Elijah though he was the only one but God had reserved 7000 more like him!)
¨ Always have a greater loyalty to God and His Kingdom than men, churches, and movements.
¨ Never imagine that someone is indispensable or that God won’t judge someone because they are doing so much to advance the Kingdom.
¨ Make sure that you are teachable and correctable.
¨ Stay in covenant relationships that provide genuine accountability.
¨ Deal with your issues before they deal with you.
¨ What you don’t deal with privately, you will have to deal with publicly.
¨ If you are a leader make sure you have prayer cover and personal intercessors.
¨ Heed the warnings of the Spirit.
¨ Never violate your conscience.
¨ Pride always leads to a fall.
¨ Never forget that your sin will always find you out.

¨ I have especially been reminded about the importance of 3 things:

1. The importance of the fear of the Lord – to cause us to turn from sin (Ex 20:20), and to hate evil (Prov 8:13).
2. The importance of not violating your conscience in order to not shipwreck your life (1 Tim 1:19).
3. The vital importance of accountability – especially in the area of sexuality and lust (Matt 5:28; Jas 5:16).

1. The Fear of the Lord

¨ The fear of the Lord is one of the most important elements in a disciple’s development.

Exod 20:20
Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning."

Prov 8:13
To fear the LORD is to hate evil.

Prov 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Isa 11:2-3
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD—3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.



What is the fear of the Lord & how do you get it?

¨ It is essentially having a revelation of God as holy and God as Judge.
¨ When we understand that God loves & rewards righteousness and hates & punishes wickedness we grow in the fear of the Lord. Remember that you never get away with anything with the Lord!
¨ The understanding that you will stand before the judgment throne and every thought, motive and action will be scrutinised and judged causes the fear of the Lord to fall.
¨ In Acts, when God judged Ananias and Sapphira the fear of the Lord fell – with wonderful results - there was an outbreak of miracles, healing, deliverance, salvation and church growth (Acts 5:11-16).
¨ It shows a real lack of the fear of the Lord to sin and think you can get away with it or receive prophetic warnings and do nothing about them.
¨ We should also realise that church leadership is a sacred trust and carries great responsibility.

James 3:1
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

1 Tim 5:19-20
Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

Luke 12:48
From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

¨ Leadership in the church is not just a job for people with good organisational or communication gifts – it is a holy stewardship with enormous consequences and accountability!
¨ Why would you want to be a church leader when you are living in sin?? You are just increasing your judgement!

2. Not violating your conscience

1 Tim 1:19
Holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.

2 Cor 1:12
Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, in the holiness and sincerity that are from God.

¨ Following your conscience is the key to holiness. Keeping a clear conscience is how to avoid shipwrecking your life.
¨ In order to sin we must ignore and suppress the warnings of our conscience. If we repeatedly do this we sear our conscience as with a hot iron (1Tim 4:2).
¨ Our conscience is reactivated by 1) the Word 2) the Spirit 3) holy fellowship.
¨ A good way of knowing that you are violating your conscience is that you feel the life inside draining away. You may even feel sick, or feel like there is a stone in your stomach. Once you have violated your conscience you may feel internal voices of accusation, guilt, shame, confusion, depression or even suicide.
¨ We need to re-draw our battle lines to not violating our conscience at all. We need to fight our battles at the level of thoughts and not wait until it gets to actions. And we need to make sure that we are accountable whenever we ‘blow it’ (Matt 5:28; Jas 5:16).

3. Accountability

¨ The Proverbs are full of warnings against not accepting instruction, correction and rebukes. A man who is not teachable will be destroyed!
¨ Accountability begins with the Lord. If you will not be accountable to Him you will not truly be accountable to anyone else! You must have a revelation of giving an account on the Day of Judgment!
¨ Beyond that you should be accountable to your spiritual leaders. You must have human authority in your life! When you do what is right in your own eyes you are in trouble! (Jud 21:25). You need others to help define you and be an accurate mirror to you.
¨ Then you should also have peer level accountability with your friends:

Prov 27:6
Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses.

¨ All three: 1) God 2) leaders 3) friends - should know your fault-lines, fuse-lines or time-bombs and be actively working with you to cover, diffuse and heal them.

“We tend either to be impressed or threatened by one another’s outward success. Yet how many superstars, not to mention the rest of us ordinary mortals, have hidden time bombs ticking away waiting for Satan to detonate them?” (Barney Coombs)

“The Christian world is fairly competent at training people academically and theologically but we are not so good at discipling them in godly character. I have become overwhelmingly convinced that before a man is recognised and released into responsible leadership he needs to have been properly and carefully discipled. This entails the discovering and defusing of time bombs in a man’s character. It also means that character weaknesses are identified and dealt with.” (Barney Coombs)

¨ We need to surround ourselves with people who love us but are not too impressed with us or insecure about correcting us. Beware of putting ‘yes men’ around you who only hold up the mirror you want to see!
¨ Typical characteristics of someone who is not accountable are independence, isolation and a critical spirit. They confuse correction with rejection. They are prickly and defensive. Often they are just too proud to listen.

What should you do if you think there is a serious problem with me?

¨ First you should pray and intercede privately.
¨ Second, you should approach me privately about the problem you see.
¨ Third, you should bring a friend if I won’t listen.
¨ Fourth, you should speak to the church elders about it.
¨ Fifth, you should contact my spiritual authorities. that to the MSI apostolic team.
¨ The other thing you could do before going to my covering is to speak to ( ) who I am accountable to.
¨ Once you have reported it to my spiritual authorities the situation is out of your hands and you are no longer responsible.
Ø Let us learn the lessons that God wants us to learn and not make the same mistakes!


All this is true, but to the last point I do add that believers have a responsibility to their Christian brethren in general wherever they may.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Ulyankee,

I can see your concerns. Obviously the teachings that you listed are not right. I have spoken before to some of these teachings explaining how they differ from what I was taught in msi/en and some of them I have never heard before. I think we all seem to agree (tell me if I am wrong) that there are some good churches in msi/en and some bad. My hope and prayer is that as they reorganize their VLI teachings, these kinds of misinterpretations/errors by some of the leaders will be cleared up. I thank God that you had the grace to see the error in these teachings.

There were two teachings listed that I heard something similar to that I haven’t responded to yet:

“--that receving gifts of the Holy Spirit is independent of salvation... that even unrepentant sinners can receive those gifts”

I have heard this teaching – not related to spiritual gifts – but related to God given talents and abilities. Example: a young man leading an inner city gang has God given leadership skills but since he is not yet saved he is not using those God given skills they way God intended. Yet, he is still a leader.

”--that we are tripartate beings--body, soul, spirit--allowing us to be indwelled by demons after salvation “

I have been taught that we have a body, soul and spirit (through a program we use in our church called Cleansing Streams). But, I have also been taught that demons can not dwell in a saved person. A saved person can be oppressed by an evil spirit but not possessed. I will try to find a web page for Cleansing Streams. I would like your opinion on their teachings.

(lc 20)

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Ulyankee,

http://www.cleansingstream.org/

Please let me know if this looks balanced to you.

Thanks. (lc 20)

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

My current church teaches cleansing streams , I kept an open mind to it, but half way, I had to quit and could not go on. It teaches a pyramid structure in the family but not in the church. I told my pastor why I cannot agree with it. He was fine with it and and understand where I am coming from. because of what I have been through in MSI and it is not for churches who are controlling, because abuses do occur when misapplied and misuse. SO I never finished it.

What I learned in there is this, Cleansing Streams should only be taught by people who has proven character and can be trusted. Its not for everybody. Jack Hayford, 20 years ago,have warned one of the top maranatha leader about being controlling. His church actualy teaches and discusses the Shepherding Movement. So they are very aware where the boundaries lies when abuses occurs. While MSI don't know a thing about it.
Though my son finished it and I saw no harm to him.
Cleansing Streams can be misuse and abuse on the hands of ungodly people or it can do great things on the hands of godly people, depending who teaches it.
I understand that some MSI teaches this. So I have to see the outcome of it all.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

TO 115.135 : YOU'RE NOT THE ONLY ONE. I WAS TAUGHT THE SAME TWISTED BELIEFS. IT SET OFF ALARMS IN MY HEAD. IT WAS VERY SUBTLE. SOMETIMES I WOULD CATCH MYSELF THINKING OF THE PASTOR, "DID HE JUST REALLY SAY THAT ?" WHAT AM I IN ?

[Sandy (65.67.239.66)]

That is right!! Sometimes I would think he
must not mean that or he is trying to ballance
another extreme.
My problem is that I didn't see any of the things
ulyankee listed in my church.

It was all SECRET DOCTRINE!!
Was it like that in your churhes?

I know this sounds realy stupid but
I had no Idea for over 15 years (kicking myself)
that my church did not believe anything that
I did.
I did wonder why no one ever talked of doctrine.

PS
"that receving gifts of the Holy Spirit is independent of salvation"
Do they actually teach this??

[another brick in the wall (68.52.137.63)]

Another MSI mantra that they imbed in the members is: "This is not a battleground."

We would hear numerous times in VLI (primarily) that all of the pastors on staff all held differing views of this specific point or that specific point. We would told this forthright. Yet, then it would be quickly added that the pastors all agree that these points (of doctrine) was not a battleground. What they all agreed upon was that we need to go out to the nations, make disciples, save people from their doom.

Yet, to the unsuspecting or trusting or naive members (who don't know doctrine that well - that is the reason why they are sitting in VLI for 3+ hours one night each week) that above message who convey to them..."well if these little points do not matter to the pastors - then it doesn't to me."

And then proceed forward learning the proper way to conduct a cell group, attain charisma and present an attractive appearance, and become vocal and adamant (when inappropriate) to quickly point out members/non-members weaknesses, sins and overall discrepancies.

You learn the mentality, "I gotta be in people's faces all the time." "Jesus always offended people so it's ok for me to offend my co-workers about such-and-such....I'm doing what Jesus would do."

SORRY - I just got off on another tangent...but yes - MSI diverts the necessity of pouring over Scripture to hammer out and line up specific points of doctrine. When the TRUTH is that this is what we are exhorted to do!!!!

[Anonymous (65.1.76.17)]

Sandy,

I have a tape titled "Introduction to Spiritual Gifts" in which yes, it was taught that spiritual gifts are independent of salvation. One can be a drunkard or other type of unrepentant sinner and still have spiritual gifts.

It comes from the Nashville church.

Also, the VLI Spiritual Gifts course notes from the same church state the same thing.

I noticed though that Spiritual Gifts is not offered in online VLI. Does anyone know if that course is being revised?

lc .20, there are few theological differences between deliverance taught by Neil Anderson (Cleansing Stream) and that by C. Peter Wagner/Charles Kraft (Fuller). Leo Lawson says that he does not take his practices from Neil Anderson but theologically they are both based on the tripartate man concept. While teaching that man is body/soul/spirit is not in itself unbiblical, because those terms are all used in the Bible, there just isn't enough there to hang an entire subtheology on as the above mentioned deliverance ministries have done--especially since the resultant subtheology ends up being more like pre-Christian spiritism than monotheistic Christianity, imho.

Some of these links have been posted here before, but I'm including some additional ones as well:

http://www.equip.org/free/DA080.htm
http://www.equip.org/free/DA086.htm
http://www.equip.org/free/DD075.htm
http://www.equip.org/free/DT170.htm
http://www.pfo.org/wdemons.htm

I've previously posted links to others as well that go into the similarity between modern deliverance ministries and Zoroastrianism. One was originally posted on Lausanne's website.

ulyankee

[Anonymous (65.1.76.17)]

FYI,

Here's an Inner Healing and Deliverance course syllabus from Fuller--note the required readings:

http://www.fuller.edu/swm/ecds/021/MO505_Deiros.html

And here's that link on Lausanne's site I referred to earlier: http://www.gospelcom.net/lcwe/dufe/Papers/Hiebert.htm

ulyankee

[Anonymous (65.1.76.17)]

My main issue with modern inner healing and deliverance ministries is that they add additional works to salvation from sin... they tend to discount the power of the Cross and the Blood of Christ to cleanse us of all sin once we repent and believe in Christ, as well as the power of the Holy Spirit to sanctify us after salvation.

I don't mean to say that I discount spritual warfare altogether b/c I certainly don't!... but that imho modern inner healing and deliverance ministries go too far and can potentially lead to more bondage (to the deliverance methodology) than freedom from sin. It also puts too much power in the hands of men (disciplers/accountability partners/deliverance ministers/pastors, etc.) to potentially judge other men's hearts. I've heard it taught, for example, that even personality traits require deliverance--seemingly just b/c they were personality traits that the deliverance minister personally had problems with.

According to modern inner healing and deliverance ministers/ministries, including what I heard taught in MSI, this can only be conducted by men, delivering demons, curses, sins, etc. from other men. Also, I've heard it taught that **all** sin is as the direct result of demons (rather than our fallen, imperfect earthly nature), which is an extrabiblical concept bordering on dualism or even possibly polytheism.

ulyankee

[Sandy (68.94.152.3)]

They do belittle the searching out of doctrine
but they do have one they espouse in VLI.
you have to look for it because it is worded
so that the unsuspecting will pass it over.

I supose all of them are different but mine said:

VLI-"The relegation of the Old Testament scriptures to a place of irrelevance or unimportance in the New Testament church is the result of the
impact of DISPENSATIONAL theology.

Dispensational theology is a system of biblical
interpretation and theology which:

1. Divides God's working into different TIME PERIODS.

2. Keeps permanent distinction between Israel and
the CHURCH.

3. Teaches a premillenial, pretribulational
eschatology."

me- It goes on to promote something called
COVENANT THEOLOGY.

VLI- "These systems are important to understand
since whichever one you hold will invaribly
determine your view of OLD TESTAMENT scripture!"

me- So they seem to think is is important that you
learn their theology. What is not desired is
that you would know your theology is changing.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

TO SANDY : NOT SURE, BUT I DID SEE THE THINGS ULYANKEE MENTIONS IN MY CHURCH.

[Actually (198.54.202.242)]

Hi ulyankee
I must say, I was horrified to read the list of false teachings that you posted. I mean point 7 is pure Islam - saying that Jesus was a "man of God" not God incarnate! Praise God, those heresies are not held in any of the MSI/EN churches that I have been a part of or I would have been out of the door, running for my life! If it brings any comfort, those are certainly not held as orthodox teachings in MSI and I do pray that if any pastor is teaching that in an MSI church, that God would convict him immediately.

Regarding the Spiritual Gifts course, yes, as far as I know it will be in VLI but there's no way that the course compilers would include something like spiritual gifts being given to unbelievers. Which spiritual gift was mentioned on the tape you have, btw? I'm trying to imagine how anyone could reach this conclusion and the only thing I can think of is confusion over the gift of faith (1 Cor 12:9). We need to respond to God in faith for salvation so maybe people could argue that God must give us the faith to respond to Him ie He gives the gift of faith to sinners for the purpose of calling on Him. But it's a messy argument so I can't imagine anyone teaching that in VLI.

And that was a very good post on inner healing and deliverance ministries. There is value in realising that some habitual sins may be the result of demonic oppression and that you should fight them spiritually, not only in your will but this ministry does seem to be especially vulnerable to excess. We need to be vigilant to ensure that the focus always remains on Jesus and His finished work on the cross.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

I have always question the inner healing and deliverance .

Because I never read Jesus nor His disciples do inner healing and deliverance, its unscriptural. My question is this, Why ressurect the old man , heal it and kill it again ?

Being delivered from generational curses is one thing , that at least is in the old testament where people repent. BUT inner healing and deliverance is something else, where they blame the devil for everything, a christian just lost his accountabilty when he/she commit sin.

I have seen people who went through inner healing and deliverance , and I should say its temporal. Because habits are hard to break. No casting out of demons will do it.

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

GG,

"I have seen people who went through inner healing and deliverance , and I should say its temporal. Because habits are hard to break. No casting out of demons will do it." -- WELL SAID!

My former church (which was Maranatha until the name change), majored on deliverance. Actually, "majored" is a gross understatement. It became the all-consuming focus of the pastor, his sermons, and his ministry. He preached, preached, and preached personal and corporate deliverance. I rarely, if ever, saw lasting fruit of these deliverance sessions in any of the people he took through it. He preferred the quick-fix method of supposedly casting something out than the more involved, but real method, of counseling someone about the root of their problem and helping them learn to overcome it. I personally went through many a deliverance session with him and came away much more damaged than when I started.

Now, to bring some balance, I do believe that the Lord can instruct someone to pray and repent for sins, both personal and generational, and that He then can remove demons and demonic garbage from someone's life. HOWEVER, they have to be willing to walk out changing the habit or sinful nature by the renewing of their minds in the Word and in prayer in order to see lasting, real change. Otherwise, they've placed a bandaid over a festering wound and just thinks it's healed when it's not.

Sadly, my former pastor is still conducting deliverance sessions....the damage still continues, despite many pleas from former members for him to stop the damage. I wonder if there is ever any legal recourse for damage like this, to force him to stop since he refuses to on his own?

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

128.194.115.135

yes, these can be pursued legally. that has happened in other churches, when a person come out more damaged.

also Christianity is a WALK, thats why Jesus said carry your cross everyday. narrow is the road, that also means its a WALK.

One of my former pastor pursuit is the perfection of the church, My former pastor is very impatient with people when they are not comformed to his image not christ image. So inner healing and deliverance is the only way for perfection. Instead of grace and patience.

thats why the fruits of the Holy Spirit is NEVER PREACH ! The fruits are all WALK !

[Sandy (65.70.109.162)]

101.13
Did you ever come to the point where you asked
about what was taught or did you (like me)
think you must have somehow gotten it wrong.

Aparantly in your church it was more blatant but
I am afraid to say that before, even if I heard
that stuff I might not have recognized it as such
How long were you or are you still there.

ULYankee- I was just reading a VLI gift class that someone had given me. He said that after the
class of 100+ people that more than one third of them were slain in the spirit. Now that is
something that has not been done in our church previously.

That teachings you mentioned above kind of answers the
question I had about false doctrines.

11 Peter 2:1
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

I was pretty sure they had never gotten to the
place where they denied the Lord. Now in light
of these teachings it seems they might be.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Actually,

as I told you before just watch , listen and discern when these people go to your church and preach.

[Anonymous (64.65.136.84)]

Breaking
Kathy Myatt's Testimony

January 18, 1981 . . . the peak of the pressure and disillusionment that had been mounting for months, if not years . . . or the lowest point in my life of faith and perseverance . . . depending on how you look at it. I got up calmly enough, my plan well determined in my mind, and went to have breakfast with one of my disciples. Having just returned from ministry in Brazil, I had not seen her for months. I felt much warmth, and a kind of maternal love for her, since the day I'd seen her make her decision to become a Christian. She had been single, alone and pregnant, and was tired of being used and confused. I assured her that Jesus would never leave her nor forsake her, and that as her sister in the Lord, I too would love her with His love and help her in any way I could. Now I was telling her that I was going to leave the fellowship we both were in . . . that I needed to sort some things out and be with my family. I knew what she would be told about me after I left, and I wanted to counter those accusations now; to assure her that I did love God and that I did love her . . . but I was afraid to say anything that would seem to discredit the elders and further confirm their suspicions that I was in rebellion against God and their authority. So I hoped she would just remember me and somehow know these things herself, at least someday.

By noon it was time to pack . . . my decision to leave would now be public and the next few hours would be draining, if I could even make it to the plane at 5:00. Katharine looked at me as I walked into the sisters' house and ran up to me with a hug. "I knew you would get an answer from the Lord! He's told you, hasn't He? He's told you what He wants you to do! I can tell by the look on your face that you have a peace. What is it? Are you going to start up a ministry in Columbus or Boulder or where?" I savored the moment that I was about to shatter and then with a sigh and a smile that I hoped would continue to convey peace and assurance, I told her I was leaving for awhile. As I went on to explain what I felt God was saying to me to the other girls in the room, Katharine quietly slipped out and called Mark, the co pastor, to tell him of my defection. He called me to the phone and asked me why I felt it so necessary to leave . . . then with all tenderness and love, encouraged me not to be afraid, not to isolate myself, but to repent, that no one would look down on me, everyone loved and respected me, we all have low times and that is why we need each other . . . I told him I needed to think and would call him back. It was very appealing. His words ran through my mind as I tried to put my things together. Maybe I was overreacting. Sure there were some things wrong with the group, but wasn't I being overly harsh? shouldn't I stay and try to work it out? but I had and they wouldn't listen or budge. It was all my fault, my wrong attitude, my lack of faith, my deception. Not a word of mine had penetrated in the last two weeks other than to provide evidence to them that I had become carnal, soulish, selfish and proud. Obviously I was under a strong spirit of deception that was leading me astray. God wanted to use me in mighty ways since I had such a close relationship with Him so Satan had come against me with great force to keep me from my true ministry in the group . . . somehow I had let Satan have an open door to my heart and now I was to repent and renounce him so I could get on with God's will and be a full time worker in the ministry. This was such a high honor, how could I even think of doing anything else? Yet, after many days of fasting and praying I could not honestly say that God had shown me any sin to repent of and for some reason, I had come to the limit of blindly following directions from the leadership.

But where had this led me? . . . to this black day in which I was packing my things and preparing to turn away from three years of memories, love, friends and a home. Surely this could not be God's will? Still, could I go back to the total submission I had been under? to be told when to fast, how long and what for? to have to get permission to visit my grandmother, or to travel at all? to be instructed in the use of feminine hygiene products to use or avoid, and if not heeded, to be in rebellion against God Himself? Was it true that reading any books by non Christian authors would reap corruption? They taught that whatever one is not willing to give up for God is an idol which will eventually cause the destruction of the believer . . . surely God was worthy of absolute obedience . . . but was He the one requiring all these things or were fallible men and women using His name to demand things He never wanted? And if so, what was the effect on my life? Where I had been happy and joyful in God, now I was rigid and suspicious . . . where I used to serve people for the fun of giving, now I kept track of my "increasing faithfulness" and "potential for leadership" . . . where I used to love God with open affection and awe, now I was scared and intimidated by Him. Could I continue to do this to myself, to Him, and to us? Could I continue to share the gospel and have people come into the group that would bring them into this attitude as well? I had had faith that had witnessed miracles before; now I was so dependent on the leadership and the "proper principles" that my faith had withered. Why was it that I found myself explaining the teachings to new believers so they sounded less harsh, reassuring them that living by these principles was really pleasant and fulfilling? and now that I was up and coming leadership, could I really back up what was being taught by my peers? Yet, being a woman, wasn't I more easily deceived? Maybe I needed to respect the brothers' teachings and not think so highly of myself to regard them as peers at all. Perhaps that was why they felt I had become proud and independent. Could I repent from that? Still, God was powerful. You don't walk out on people just because you disagree with them. What was I doing anyway? Didn't I trust God to take care of this?

The phone rang. It was Mark. He had just spoken to Steve, the other pastor who had been the main one counseling me these past weeks; exhorting me to submission and delivering me from demons. They had agreed my situation was serious and the only possible solution was my repentance, or I would continue to displease and fall away from God. But why wouldn't God tell me this? I used to hear Him so well. Surely if He knew I was sincerely wanting His will, He would tell me no matter where I was . . . how often I had openly admitted my sins, made public confessions. He knew I was open to Him. Meanwhile the pressure was mounting. Mark was waiting for an answer. I was without a job and had only two dollars. My choice was clear: to repent, submit and move to a new state to start a new ministry and forget about my nursing career or further schooling (they said it was carnal) or to take a few days off to think about things away from the pressure. I told Mark my decision was the same. Now the tone changed. Evidently I had no intention of trusting the leadership God had established for me, so there was no use in my staying in the fellowship at all. After all, there is no fellowship between light and darkness. Until I repented, there was no place for me among the committed members who truly wanted to serve God. So it was done. 3:30 pm.

The flight was the most calm, smooth ride I had ever been on. I fully expected the plane to crash and didn't think I'd mind if it did. I felt like Jonah, running away from God. I was certain I was condemned to hell, and that my leaving was a result of my inability to maintain the high standards that the others could. When we touched down and I saw the mountains of Denver, so comforting and strong, and knew my parents were on the other side of the door, my failure overwhelmed me. Twenty six years old and running home like a whipped puppy with its tail between its legs. Where was the victory and abundant life I had been preaching all these years? The smiles, the assurances, the optimism for an alternate lifestyle that was far superior to ordinary life? I had experienced it, but it turned on me. Now what?

How had I come to this place? When did it start?

I had become a "born again" Christian on June 20, 1973 while selling Bible reference books door-to-door. My roommates that summer were "Jesus freaks" who at first repelled me, then drew my admiration. Having always been a kind of "goody two shoes" I had never been impressed by the witness of evangelical Christians who tried to convince me their destination was heaven and mine was hell. Their lives struck me as rather clique-ish, but certainly no holier than mine. In fact, they seemed rather arrogant. But when I lived with Darla and Claudia, I saw quite a difference! They prayed every time they turned around, they fasted because "God told them to fast and pray" and they wouldn't stop until He told them to stop. They witnessed at the most inconvenient times, like when we were getting gas on our way home from selling for 12 hours. They were kind when people were rude to them and they were absolutely convinced that God knew them and was concerned with them on a personal level. How often I heard them praying at night into their pillows that God would find them worthy to be used by Him. I was amazed, curious, finally ashamed. By their example I began to see that my grand goodness was nothing but a sham arrogance and stupidity. I worked to please men, and brought God out on the shelf when it would be convenient or look good. I began to believe I would go to hell and rightly so. As I listened to them, openly now, they described a God who was personal, who loved me deeply and who had provided righteousness for me freely, as a gift. On June 20th, walking down a country road in North Carolina, it occurred to me that my life would be worthless without Jesus Christ. As I embraced this realization I told God I needed His forgiveness, asked Him to save me and gave Him my life for His use and good pleasure. From that moment on I was a different person. I had met the living God and He had saved me! taken me in as His own child! His work on me began immediately. Motives that had hidden behind my "good" behavior came to light. Issues of trust, of obeying Him even if it had nothing to do with the ten commandments. Would I fast when He asked? Would I delay my dinner to help someone I didn't even know? Would I share the gospel on the spur of the moment even if I was nervous or embarrassed? Still His love for me far outweighed whatever He asked of me. He said He wanted us to be either hot or cold for Him; not lukewarm. To know Him and follow Him then meant one was to be hot for God. There was no other option, and I would have none of compromise for One who had done so much for me so undeservedly.

Sadly, my newborn zeal was greatly disillusioned when summer ended and I returned to college life. I visited church after church after church but they all seemed so lifeless . . . so compromising . . . everything went by status quo. It didn't even seem anyone was expecting God to lead them or speak to them.

After a year, I finally found a small band of young people known simply as "the body" whose life and love and being centered around Jesus. I moved in with some of the "sisters" and immersed myself in their lifestyle. Praying, Bible study, witnessing, community meals and teaching nightly. We believed in poverty since "the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head". There were clear-cut roles for men and women; and we all lived as brothers and sisters. No one dated unless they felt "God was knitting their hearts together" into a bond like Jonathan and David had. Ninety nine percent of those who dated married each other within a short time. Over the next three years (1973 76) our group grew so quickly we were awed at God's work among us. We never held outreaches or revival campaigns, but word of our total commitment spread on campus and young people searching for a radical and livable community devoted to God flocked to us. Many felt the typical youth fellowship groups on campus were too watered down and more concerned with having a good time and cliques than they were in following a personal Creator.

There were many errors and difficulties however that arose with this group. Because we expected Jesus' imminent return we did not pursue schooling or careers, but spent our time witnessing so no one would go to hell on account of us. We got our food from periodic "dump runs" (to dumpsters behind stores) so we would not have to use good money to buy food when instead we could use it for printing evangelistic tracts. As people began to marry there was no one old enough or wise enough to deal with the myriads of issues and dilemmas of family life. Arrogance was widespread as we felt we were the only ones truly following God. In 1976 our pastors disbanded the group, to the great sorrow of its members.

Throughout the following year I suffered many losses. I no longer had a church family the one solid thing I had counted on was gone without my consent or agreement. My Brazilian boyfriend with whom I shared a seven year relationship decided he didn't want to get married after all. My goal as a graduate nurse to ease pain and assist in healing was demolished as I watched babies, toddlers and teens die weekly from leukemia and cystic fibrosis. In fact I seemed to bring pain to them by administering the chemotherapy. Friends from the old fellowship began to move away as well to start new lives. I decided my problem was that I was out of God's will so I moved to Lexington, Ky. where I hoped God would show me what to do.

Less than six weeks later I was living with a new set of Christian "sisters" who belonged to a highly committed fellowship as well. What a relief! Loving people, Christian values, goals and direction, leadership and so much loving support! I was assigned to Karen to be my personal "shepherdess". It was her entire responsibility to see that I grew in the Lord. She spent many hours with me, cultivating our friendship and drawing me out. I wasn't used to people caring for me and was very flattered and thankful to God for leading me to this group. They reassured me as well that I must have a very high calling from God since He sent me to them to be discipled. Over the next three years (1978 81) I was groomed and prepared for leadership. Leadership was a top priority quality that Maranatha worked to cultivate in its members.

Although I had many doubts and skepticisms about many of the teachings I encountered in the group, I was impressed by its radical nature. These people were fully convinced of the call to total commitment to God. Besides, they also stressed holiness, faith, victory, overcoming and zeal. I felt they lacked a perspective of mercy, grace and love and decided God must have brought me to them so I could impart what I had as well as learn discipline from them.

Some of their teachings, however, went beyond the bounds of any coherent theology connected with the real world. They told us that disease, death, poverty, or any "earthly struggles" are simply a result of Satanic curses, demon possession, sinfulness or lack of faith. In one way it appealed to me because now I knew why I had so much pain in my life and could fix it. But I kept picturing the little ones I had cared for in the hospital and could not imagine them being at fault. When I asked questions I was told that God had shown Bob, our leader, these things and we must trust the Lord in him to teach us accurately. I learned that my mind had been totally perverted by the Fall and that a mental analysis was a totally unreliable test of truth. I was to listen only to my spirit to discern good from evil. The more I abandoned my mind and felt truth in my heart, the faster I would grow spiritually. And as I grew spiritually God would reveal things to me Himself and I would also understand better what teachings I now felt were contradictory to the Bible.

Apparently I was unable to divorce my mind completely, and I continued to listen carefully to try to understand and make sense of what Bob taught. I was called by Karen to Bob's house where he, his wife Pat and Karen confronted me. They felt a demonic spirit was keeping me from accepting God's truth unhindered and told me I needed to be delivered of that spirit in order to grow. As they prayed over me, they decided I had a spirit of mind idolatry, critical thinking, a masculine spirit (because I was "analytical like a man and not open and innocent like a woman"). I also was found to have spirits of independence, rebellion and mistrust. To top it off they felt I had a seductive spirit that was causing some brothers to come up and talk to me after meetings. They surmised if it were the Holy Spirit drawing, each female would be talking to a male. (I sorely wanted to suggest the girls smile a little, but was afraid this would reveal another spirit). I found it hard to believe I had all these demons, and when I voiced my objection they pointed out that at that very moment I was manifesting their presence. I was given a choice to repent and submit, or to pack up and leave the fellowship, since rebellion against God cannot be tolerated. I had so many friends in the group, I was anxious to serve God, I had no idea where I could go. I concluded that if they were right, deliverance would help. If they were wrong, it would do no harm. I decided to submit. Once I did, they were so loving and helpful that I actually left that humiliating meeting feeling closer to God. As I left they called out "Are you willing to be retarded for Jesus?" and I answered "Yes!" to which everyone nodded approval. Looking back, I see my conclusion was wrong. It did harm me to submit to this. A precedent was set that my mind was useless, and for the next three years I obeyed blindly without any capacity for self – observation. All self responsibility was abdicated. I had only to submit to be safe.

My lifestyle began to change dramatically as I was indoctrinated into God's "higher plan". We did not date in Maranatha, as dating was seen to originate from the devil to bring scars and hurts as well as to lead young people into immorality. Since "Adam and Eve didn't date" it was reasoned unnecessary for us as well. God would supernaturally reveal to a believer the name of the one He wanted them to marry. They then submitted this name to the elders for confirmation, which had to be unanimous from the national elder board. Time was given for the other prospective spouse to "hear from God" if it had been confirmed. After a month they were approached to "pray about marriage". With this nudge they oftentimes did "hear from God" and were engaged immediately. No physical contact whatsoever was permitted until after the wedding. If one "heard wrong" as I did, they were delivered of spirits of lust and seduction.
Faith was an important aspect affecting daily living. We were never to complain or speak negatively. We were told that what our lips said, would come to pass. That is, if we said we felt sick, we would become sick. We were to speak faith. If ill, we could say we were getting the victory over it. Medications were looked down on as indications that one was not spiritual enough to have the faith to "stand against" sickness, pain or discomfort without pills. Depression was a sign of spiritual oppression that one could and should be delivered from. Anger was sin; unless it was against outsiders in which it was probably righteous. Tears of sorrow, grief, doubt or fear were seen to glorify the devil; unless of course they were from righteous pain like grief at sin in the world. Our "counselors" or "shepherds" job was to take us back through old wounds, discover the sin or curse that caused them and pronounce healing over us.

Submission to leadership was essential. One submitted first to one's personal discipler (as unto God) and they in turn to the local leaders, who in turn comprised the Board of Elders. Soon after joining Maranatha I discovered I was to hear from God on every single area of my life. No area was neutral. If I wanted to visit relatives I had to get permission. If I was becoming too close friends with anyone we were separated. Disobedience was equated with the sin of witchcraft and obviously was grounds for being banned from the group.

Friendships with others outside the group were terminated except within the framework of "evangelistic potential". That is, one could develop friendships for the purpose of witnessing. To "draw life from" loving relationships outside the group was felt to contradict the command to "keep oneself unstained from the world". Other Christians could conceivably fellowship with us, but they had such a lower revelation of God that it was rhetorically asked "How can two walk together who do not share the same vision?" Sometimes the burden of these many sacrifices to live such controlled lives weighed heavily upon us. We were quickly reminded to be thankful to God that He had placed such a high calling on us. After all, God told us in a prophecy that we were His end time army, the Green Beret of His army, in fact. As a reward for our zeal and commitment we had a good chance at being those called to rule and reign with Him in the Holy of Holies. After all, we were baptized in the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, utilized all the gifts of the Spirit and were operating at 100% obedience level. Besides, we knew that Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" referred to the fact that many Christians suffer poverty, disease and misfortune for lack of knowledge of God's provisions for them. This was a crucial reason Maranatha stressed leadership so much. It was our expectation that in the millennium we would be the ones to "rule and reign" with Christ since we were "100 fold Christians". We would help the lesser Christians along. To walk away from such a destiny was unthinkable.

In short we were an enclosed community of idealistic young people full of vision, ready answers and zeal without knowledge. I began to see this after two and a half years when I went on staff and was sent to Brazil to begin a campus ministry in Rio de Janeiro. I arrived in Brazil in June 1980 and was met there by Bert and Karen a couple who had been sent on earlier to learn the language. I was already fluent in Portuguese since I had been to Brazil several times previously. Bert was to be the primary pastor. I found them to be very sensitive and loving people who welcomed me warmly.

Removed from my Lexington friends who had ushered me into Maranatha and interpreted difficult teachings for me, however was quite a shock. Living with a married couple I'd never met and being in a foreign country with them began to unsettle me. I felt awkward and out of place. I began to reevaluate what I was doing and why. I worried about my family in Denver who did not want me to make this move and felt a terrible misgiving about missing God in this. I had a strong sense He wanted me to go back to Denver and heal our long broken relationships. Then I dismissed this notion as 'of the devil' since the elders had all prayed and confirmed it to be God's will for me to be in Brazil.

Soon Nick arrived. He was a traveling evangelist with Maranatha and was to help launch our initial outreach and assist Bert with pastoring a young church in its early stages. Nick was a very dynamic Greek, full of strong emotions, plans and demands. A power struggle developed between the two leaders with Nick the usual victor. I couldn't believe that the fights and manipulations I had thought I had escaped by joining this group were now being reenacted before my very eyes. I began to see that decisions handed down "from the Lord" and backed by His total authority were nothing more than decisions reached after arguments and power plays. When I confronted Nick with my concerns he rebuked me, saying that sisters were to not be questioning the authority of the leaders.

Soon I noticed as well that newsletters sent to our U.S. offices had glowing stories about miraculous healings (a man who fainted in our meeting was proclaimed "raised from the dead") and how Nick was preaching before 300 (chairs, only 11 people were there). In one meeting Nick spoke to medical students and said "when I studied Medicine. . ." I asked him afterwards when he studied Medicine since I knew he had never graduated from high school. He claimed his uncle was a doctor and he had looked at his books once. I further challenged him on this apparent lie and he answered "The Bible says to become all things to all men in order to win the few".

By this time I was seriously disturbed with the growing discrepancies between the Jesus I had met and the one being presented. Holiness and commitment were stressed over and over. But where was holiness in lying and fighting? Love and grace seemed like wishy washy female ideas of no value. After all, we were an Army. Meanwhile I was receiving warm friendly letters from a brother in Lexington, and decided it must be God's will for me to leave and be married to him; so I submitted his name. Much to my sorrow and embarrassment the elders called and said he was getting engaged that night to another girl and that I was to "gird up my loins" and resist the devil and lay down my life for God.

With the outreach fully underway we were living 18 hour days, witnessing, holding meetings, discipling new converts. Money was draining quickly away. I had sold my car to come to Brazil, now the proceeds from that were almost gone. I had one pair of sandals to wear and began to understand the hospitality of foot washing after myself being out on dirt roads in the hot sun all day. With no real cash, and the fact that my visa would expire the end of November, the elders began to question what sins I was committing since "God wasn't blessing me with abundance". I was delivered of a selfish spirit for not ironing Nick's shirts more willingly so he had several to choose from at a time. I had also expressed concern privately to Karen that I had not menstruated in five months. In the deliverance session this was brought out in front of everyone as evidence that I was "withholding" from the group spiritually, even as my body was "withholding its life blood". Once again I repented, but this time it was with a measure of resistance. I fought doubts and questions daily. I spent my day off walking the beaches alone, trying to sort out why a heathen waiter I'd never met before was so kind to me, to reheat my meal I hadn't touched and to give me words of comfort. Why was our life so unloving and harsh? I prayed constantly, but of course tears were impossible. When I finally confessed my doubts to Bert, he told me the devil was after me and that I was no longer to be alone on my days off or anytime. That way they could gird me up.

Now that I was discipling 14 girls myself (who were to obey me as unto God just as I did to my elders), I felt a greater weight of responsibility on my shoulders. The Bible had many things to say about false teachers leading innocent ones into error. When it had just been my life at stake, it didn't really matter. But now it was my job to call others to enter this group and follow the principles we lived by. Could I?…using Jesus' Name?

What about the teaching that God does not know the future? that Jesus paid for our sins in hell and not on the cross? What about the faith teaching? I was a nurse. Could I stand by and watch Jose, a man with a serious heart condition requiring medical attention, refuse to get it because Nick said he was healed? What would be my responsibility if something happened to him? What about when Diane got a head injury from a bike accident and was prayed over and anointed with oil? Only days later, after
pus was oozing from her head did they say she could go to the E.R. But were these questions even possible? After all, we were taught that once we became members of Maranatha we had entered into a covenant relationship with them. To leave the group would be breaking covenant not only an admission of failure, but an act of supreme betrayal. Everyone knew covenant breaking was the worst offense one could commit worse than divorce because it was against GOD.

Wouldn't God just take care of any errors Himself? Shouldn't I just trust God's appointed leadership even if I disagreed with them? Perhaps I did not understand... or was He holding me responsible to hear Him myself even if it contradicted the leaders? But they were men. Wasn't I as a woman more easily deceived? Didn't I as a single woman need their covering?

With these questions in the back of my mind, no money and an expired visa I returned to the U.S. in late November. I had told the brothers in Brazil I felt God leading me to get more money for the ministry there. They confirmed this in the Holy Spirit. I was so torn, yet hopeful that everything would make sense once I got back to Lexington. That was not to be so. Immediately I encountered more control measures. I was told that sisters were not to use tampons anymore since the Lord showed the elders they were unsafe. Since the sisters' house had 8 women and only one bathroom, there was no privacy ever. Even an infringement of this rule would be reported. As a nurse, I resented the intrusiveness on decisions involving something so personal. I also discovered that married couples had to submit to the elders if they could try to get pregnant or not. So now, rebellion against God could even be found here! I decided to test my heart and see if I were in such a lost state as it appeared. I asked to go to Ohio to help with the outreach there for awhile. I knew it would be impossible to witness or read the Bible if I were in real sin. Yet I found my heart quite willing and comfortable with the Gospel and the Scriptures. I talked for hours with my close friend and former shepherdess, Judy. She confided in me some very deep, personal hurts she was going through as a result of the dating revelation (the system designed to prevent pain in affairs of the heart). Yet she continued to believe she was to serve God no matter what the cost was and exhorted me strongly to do the same. I agreed with her words but had come to doubt whether it was God creating such demands and hurt, or if it was men.

Throughout the next days I fasted and prayed and met with Steve and Brenda, then pastors in Lexington. Their five-year-old son sat in on the 'counseling'. Steve was angry and disappointed at my return from Brazil, believing it to indicate a loss of faith. He felt my visa would have been miraculously renewed and money also provided supernaturally, had I enough faith for it. When I shared what I had seen and heard, he declared I had a spirit of pride and was unwilling to yield to the Lord. He felt I had become mediocre and now only wanted to marry and be a rich, wishy washy suburban housewife... that I was no longer under Jesus' lordship and was therefore in danger of losing my salvation altogether. My choice was to repent and then to pray about where next I should go in full time ministry or to rebel and break covenant. I burst into tears. As he had verbally battered me I had been able to remove myself from the room emotionally and mentally. At this last statement I could no longer control the distancing and sobbed in his living room. He was quite pleased, taking this for repentance, and prayed over me and told me to go hear the Lord about my next assignment.

On January 17th I talked with my parents in Denver. I told them of my deep confusion and inability to make a decision. They offered to buy me a plane ticket home the following day so I could think things over away from the intense pressure. My father, who had just become a Christian, read to me from I Corinthians 13. He told me he didn't know all the accusations against me, but he did know I had demonstrated to him the love described in that chapter. Surely something I had been doing must have been right.

Love. It had seemed so unconditional at first . . . so tangible . . . so strong. But now it had become conditional entirely on my behavior. I was not heard unless I was giving the party line. All else was evil. I was no longer a person but a cog in a vast machine. God was not the God we worshipped. The Vision was the god. Everything was to be sacrificed to it. The work was important, not the individuals. We were to dress like overcomers, serve like overcomers, behave like overcomers. We were to have faith, victory, generosity and obedience. Outsiders, especially Christians who did not know us except at a distance, marvelled at us. We were the most dynamic, exciting young people for God they had ever seen. We reveled in our glory. God's Green Berets.

I could not continue in this group and maintain my relationship to my first love, my Jesus. I never thought I would have to choose between serving Him and "breaking covenant" with His people, but that is how it appeared.

So on January 18, 1981, splintered and broken, I walked away from the Vision and into the arms of my God.


-Kathy Myatt-
Denver, Colorado 1983

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

Actually,

What I referred to are being taught by Morning Star International leaders... see the direct and indirect quotes I posted above for the source(s) of some of them. When I say "leaders" I mean some of the top leaders from both the Nashville and Los Angeles churches--aka the US headquarters.

When I first started doing research into the background of some of these teachings, I wrote Edward Dalcour of the Department of Christian Defense (an apologetics ministry)... he had posted something about Morning Star International on the Rick Ross boards, so I asked him for more information (http://christiandefense.org).

I did not name names in my description of the teachings... but when he replied, he was able to name exactly who was teaching what I described just by the content of my email. So if someone who is not even in Morning Star can identify the teacher by the teaching, then obviously (1) I didn't misidentify, misunderstand, or misrepresent the teachings and (2) these things are apparently being taught pretty consistently.

You are absolutely right that these things sent me running. I'm glad teachings like these haven't made it to your local church yet, though. If they do, will you too run for your spiritual life, as I did?

blessings,
ulyankee

[GG (66.2.20.18)]

There is a saying "those who did not learn from their history, are doomed to repeat it".

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

I would suggest those who already decided NOT to support World Partner . But go to this website instead. This is for the supporting the people of Israel.

Click on each one. Pray. If God wants you to donate here instead.


http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageServer?pagename=donate,http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageServer?pagename=donate (http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageServer?pagename=donate%2Chttp://www.ifcj.org/site/PageServer?pagename=donate)}

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Sorry its this one. For the People of Israel.


http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageServer?pagename=donate

or you can go to www.ifcj.org

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

.84 I finally finished reading through the testimoney of Kathy Myatt that you posted above. The belief system that Kathy Myatt ran into is not unfamiliar to me. There are a few old maranatha people who question my salvation and who would love to try to cast demons out of me. The last time I talked with one of these people, they were frustrated because their beliefs were becoming "old fashioned". Because this testimony is so similar to situations that I have experienced (not by leadership but by old maranatha members), I am going to print it off and talk to one of my pastors about it. I feel like it is important for me to get a feel for how appropriate they think this behavior is. My hope and expectation, based on past experiences with my leadership, is that they will not be supportive of this kind of thing. But, I am going to make sure. Thank you for sharing. I hope and trust that this was intended to be shared publicly. If not, please let me know. (lc 20)

[Anonymous (198.54.202.115)]

No, I don’t think that MSI can be accused of being a cult or having cultic practises because some subscribe to Covenant theology, dominion theology or a postmillennial eschatology. Skewed interpretations or dogmatism by certain individuals can, I admit, lead to that conclusion. Covenant theology as in contrast to dispensational theology is a widely accepted interpretation across many denominations in the reformed part of the church. Not all evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals and Charismatics are dispensationalists. Although extremists on both sides may hurl accusations of heresy, I don’t believe that many of the differences are strong enough to override the basic principles and doctrines of faith in Christ.

I for one, hold firmly to many elements of Covenant theology, and I have a very deep conviction of a postmillennialist perspective on scripture. There are many Christians across the board that are postmillennialists. I have studied the OT and it does confirm my belief in this area. A proper apologetic demands the use of the OT in explaining both doctrine and theology and I can point you with pleasure to the writings of extremely well respected theologians and Christian leaders who would support these views. I don’t believe that MSI is dogmatic in this area either. In fact, I have read the official position and I don’t believe that any believer would be excluded from fellowship based on their leanings in these areas unless it became divisive.

Traditionally, Dominion Theology and Reconstructionism heavily influenced the teaching within the movement, and there are some very good and valid points to both schools of thought. I have also seen excesses in these areas moderated over years with added scholarship, wisdom and learning. You must remember that MSI has been a growing and developing ministry that actively sought to develop itself and not by just appropriating stuff from other churches and movements

. I believe much of the course content, specifically from the His People viewpoint, has been sincere in that the primary motivation of the bible schools was to further discipleship and not to indoctrinate. Unfortunately, when there is central control enforced, for whatever reason, there stands the danger of doctrine becoming dogma if people are blindly accepting of it. I would like to think that many people, both teachers and learners, would ultimately want to be Noble Bereans and search the scriptures for themselves and compare teachings. I know that when I taught and prepared to teach in researching my notes, I tried to understand the underlying theologies, source documents, books and studies and did comparative studies.

It is true that much teaching is a blend of what seems to be the best of elements of charismatic, reformed and Pentecostal teaching, but we are learning and understanding as we grow. I know that in contentious areas such as deliverance and eschatology many good teachers would prefer to put the different views forward and explain their particular bias based on what they believe. If the teacher fails to do this, they are not teaching you, they are merely trying to persuade you or force the party line on you.

As to deliverance, the above postings and arguments are weak. I don’t want to enter a debate on this one and I can say with confidence that many MSI leaders cannot agree amongst themselves on various modes and practises of deliverance ministry. There has been a plethora of models in recent years and all have been limited in some way or another. If a minister is unbalanced or abusive in this area of ministry, then the local eldership has a duty to bring correction or discipline to him or her. If the eldership does not, then report it to the bishop of the local church, request accountability within your Kingdom rights, and if that does not happen exercise your Divine right to leave! I know it hurts and you care about people there, but believe me there is freedom in Christ out there and ask Him to show you a better place of fellowship and pray for those in bondage.

I also realise that some of you on this board are waking up to the fact that there is many times a strong theological school of thought such as Dominion theology, postmillennialism and even perhaps Morning Star-ism behind what many pastors preach and teach. This is unavoidable in any organisation. We just need to be careful that what we teach is God-inspired and not anti-or overly extra-biblical. To push my point further, realise that many times what the leaders say and how they say it is also predicated upon internal political considerations, prescribed areas that need focus, concerns about congregational weaknesses in specific areas of the church, a programme to encourage tithing or obedience or increased attendance and service etc.

Preaching and teaching can be done according to an Agenda. Many good men and women within MSI believe they are following God’s agenda in this and have prayerfully considerd and meditated on what they say. The temptation or even the need to use a senior or popular leader’s writings, sermons and teachings, or a business management book, or another Christian author willy-nilly is always there.

I have heard the same urban legends and jokes repeated from pulpits across denominations and countries and I am sure that this goes for biblical interpretations and doctrinal ideas that have sounded good and are repeated from what they have been taught as well. It is not necessarily a conspiracy.

I think it has more to do with the culture of the organisation.

When we hang around people after time we start to talk like them, then walk like them and then even begin to look like them. There are the occasional people who retain a certain air of individualism and that is great. But many times I have seen both good and bad changes in people as they become more immersed in the culture of the group/ age set/organisation/ministry team etc. Not only our outward is affected, but also our inward lives as well. That is why Paul rebuked the Galatians callings them foolish. They were exchanging the crux of the gospel for a watered down version where cultural imperatives were more important. (God addresses individual churches in The Revelation and commended their good practises and rebuked their biases, errors and failures.) The Galatians were in affect becoming exclusive, bent in doctrine and unchristian in practise and beliefs. They were bewitched not only by false teachers but their own importance, exclusivity and community unity.

Let me say, that every Christian group faces this problem. Now even beyond the individuals reported against on in this board, even more importantly is the future of the MSI family. Its leadership needs to examine it culture, not in the light of protecting it and furthering its agenda and future, but in the light of changing it from ultimately becoming cultic and ungodly; not only sifting individual elements out, but also by allowing a careful internal and external examination of modes, structures, leadership practises and relationships by the Lord Almighty. I believe that the church cannot rely on it own mechanisms if those mechanisms be faulty or questionable themselves. Leaders of other ministries/churches or movements are needed to give encouragement, input and even correction. This would require humility and deep commitment to allowing God to fashion the future of this movement. I am not sure if C. Peter Wagner is qualified alone to oversee this. Perhaps he and his apostolic board have already suggested tweaks, changes or corrections. I am not sure. A ship changes its course by fine degrees and not wheelies and it may take time. It is the duty of brothers and sisters, no matter how disgruntled, angry or hurt to pray for church reformation and not just to egg on revolution. (Even though I am game for a good fight).

To the MSI/EN/VICTORY/HP leaders who read this I pray that God encourages you and gives you wisdom to serve Him with a clear conscience wherever you may be. If you are in a properly functional church with a vibrant, happy congregation not dominated by a personality or an individual’s mission and agenda then I encourage you to encourage your fellow leaders and to lead by being a true example of a 5-fold minister.

I will not be posting here for a while, as I believe it is time to strategically retreat. CG, asking people to donate money to a particulAr cause not relvenat to this board is innappropriate. I suggest you direct person's to your own blog or website if you want to canvas.

[another brick in the wall (68.52.137.63)]

To .115,
So sorry to see you take reprieve from the board. I am still contemplating your last posting. But I must add from my perspective - none of the US MSI churches have elderships or bishops in place to voice any concerns.

It simply is the MSI "wall of authority" vs. the members.

Anyone is welcome to correct me if that is an incorrect assumption of your church.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Brick - I have searched the scriptures about the elders issue and I think biblically the word elders and pastors/teachers are used interchangebly. Many churches assign the title of elder to community business men or person of influence in the church and I am not sure this is biblical. There is definitely a different view about elders in msi/en. I just don't have that one figured out completely yet.

.115 I understand the need for a retreat. I have been thinking that things are wrapping up here spiritually as well for me. It seems like a good time to sit and pray about all that has been discussed.

[Anonymous (4.10.174.70)]

Another Brick, I can concur with your persepctive of the absence of avenues in which members could share concerns or questions. My church certainly had no eldership or bishops in place to which anyone could voice any concerns. My church, after the disbanning of Maranatha, became independent, completely unaccountable to anyone outside of the pastor and those he single-handedly chose as his leaders. We had no say in the selection of the leaders, and he chose "yes men" who never questioned him or allowed questions to be raised about him. I wonder how many other former Maranatha or MSI churches are like this.

Also to .115 - don't be so sure that none of the MSI or former Maranatha churches couldn't be definitively and legitimately classified as a cult. I'm not just talking slight deviations from truth or "fringe" doctrine, but my church had gross heresy and abuse straight from the pulpit, with no checks and balance

[GG (64.136.26.228)]

In Acts, the word pastor was not mentioned, instead the word elders was used. The apostles chose the elders in its community, and if there is a problem the apostles would come and discuss this with the elders of the church. Noticed both are co - equal in authority. Also when Paul rebuke the corinthian church , Paul was not just rebuking the elders but he also chastised the entire church, making the elders and the church as equal.

the practice of elders, pastors and members is different from what we see in the modern church today. Probably because its cultural.

[GG (64.136.26.228)]

The elders were the highest local authority in a church. This ofice was borrowed from the Israel's goverment, which has been established by Moses in the wilderness. In Israel there were basically two classes of elders, Because of the Law's admonition to honor fathers and mothers as well as other biblical exhortation to respect the aged , all of the elderly were given honor and influence in the affairsof the community. However , just as Moses chose seventy elders (numbers 11:16) to exercise governing authority , governing elders in the church were distinguished from those who were simply due respect for their age and faithfulness.

After israel entered the Promised land and possessed icties in which to live a primary responsibilty of the governing elders was to sit in the gates of the city, Here they acted as judges and determined who would be allowed to come in or out of the city.

some were soldiers, merchants or nobility.

In the new testament, Elders are always mentioned as plural , it can be assumed that elders are always intended to function in plurality. Some presumed that elders are all equal in authority but thats not the case, Elders who sat in one gate did not have authority to dictate policy over other gates. These may seem like small points but in ther application int he church they have major consequences.

For example , if we choose someone to be an elder because of his maturity or the respect that he has in a community of believers but has not given a specific function, he could be a hindrance to the progress of the church. Before someone is appointed a governing elder we should look for the EVIDENCE OF GOD'S ANOITING ON THEM. WITH THE case of Moses , The SPIRIT came upon them and they prophesied.
This may not be exactly how the Lord verifies every elder but we do not nee to recognize the SPIRIT UPON THEM for goverment. If we appoint soemone to this position JUST TO HONOR THEM , WE WILL PAY A HIGH PRICE FOR IT LATER...

APOSTOLIC MINISTRY - BY RICK JOYNER. PAGES 132 - 134

[GG (64.136.26.228)]

I spoke with jun escosar, two or three years ago, I asked him about elders in the church. One thing he told me is this, IF the elders in the church are AFRAID of the pastor, and has let the pastor get away a lot of things that is wrong then those elders has become USELESS in the church.

Thats why I am forward to see what changes will takes place in MSI when Jun comes in and takes over Wagner's job. I know Jun pretty well, he is not a man-pleaser, like most people i know in there.

[another brick in the wall (68.52.137.63)]

WOW!!!!

I just finished reading Kathy Myatt's testimony.

WOW!!!!

I am so disheartened because so many of the points that she shared and struggled with... so many points from over 20 years ago...

are horribly alive and destructively well today in the reincarnation that is MSI.

[Anonymous (64.65.136.84)]

To .20,

Thanks for your feedback. I assure you God will give us the victory over the false apostles and false prophets who are perpetrating evil Enochian Magic on the body of Christ. God is the victor over the evil Victory Leadership Institute and MSI false leaders who love to suck the life-blood out of the body of Christ. They will be swiftly judged and burn forever and ever in the Lake of Hellfire for the hermetic theosophy they not only embraced, but practiced on Christians unawares.

Even now we are starting to see the judgemnts streams come from the throne of God upon MCM/MSI/VLI/ENC warlocks and antichrists. They have already directly challenged the deity and sovereinty of Almighty God and their stench has been captured in vials. Their judgment will be swift according to the Word of God:

"The transgression of the wicked [MCM/MSI/VLI/CFC/ENC] saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes." Ps 36:1.

These apostates were foreordained for destruction but they have been used by the Lord to capture those who refuse to love the truth and challenge the "Magical World View" of their captors:

"He deviseth mischief upon his ben; he setteth himself in a way that is not good [Clarence Peter Wagner as 'Chief Apostle' - William Rice Broocks as 'Apostle' in the so-called New Apostolic Reformation], he abhoreth not evil [the evil of the behmeist New Order of the Latter Rain aka the New Rosicrucians]. Ps 36:4.

But can God create evil to hold the unrighteous who refuse to stick with God's Word and reject the Enochian Magic of the New [Hermetic] Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR)? The answer is YES!!!

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Is 45:7.

"And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the [MCM/MSI/CFC/VLI/ENC] abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begion at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." --Ezekiel 9:4-6.

"... for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.

And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their [false magical leaders like Wagner, Broocks, Murrell, Bonasso, Harpel, Weiner, Hinn, Crouch, Joyner, Hamon, Cindy Jacobs, Jill Austin, Tom May, Jim Lafoon, John Steele, etc.] head.

Lies, Lies, and more lies and deception. God will indeed judge and He will not spare of take pity against these hermetic usurpers who chose the Kabbalah instead of the Word of God for their salvation. They deliberately chose Witchcraft, Sorcery, Divination, Fortune-telling and every foul abomination taken right out of false magical prophesies which were channeled by the devil's evil children.

Are they "Joel's Army?

No, they are the AntiChrist Company!

Are they the Bride Company?

No, they are the Great Whore of Rome!!! and they have already demonstrated that they will have intercourse with whomever and whatever they choose! They skrye down demons right during Sunday Morning services!!!

"Come Quickly Holy Spirit!" they cry, but they already decided beforehand to reject God's plea to forsake Egyptian Metaphysics. Now they are demon-filled instead of filled with they Holy Ghost. The demons take over their personality so that they mimic who the person really was before they entered into covenant with their host in exchange for magical manifestations such as the ones regularly seen at Brownsville, Toronto, the ongoing Canadian false revivals, the Australian false revivals and the rest of the "Maranatha World Leadership Conferences that continue today.

Winkey Pratney (Moral Government Theology), John Steele (fortune-telling) Bruce Harpel (fortune-telling, deception, swindle, lies, mind and sex control over captives), Tom May (deception and swindler), Bob Weiner, deception through NOLR doctrines and spawning evil), Wagner (behmenist lies and deceit) Broocks (liar and apostate), Murrell (alleged accomplice and liar), etc.

God would have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah if He didn't crush the apostasy at MCM/MSI/CFC/VLI/ENC, etc.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Judgemnt soon! Flee from the wrath to come!!!

"Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the Lord persecute them." Ps 35:6.

I Cor 16:22: "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha."

Come swiftly Oh Lord, and cut off those who are using your Holy Name and manifesting false gifts, prophecies, works, and speaking false prophetic declaration. For your Name's sake. Amen.

[CultBuster (69.92.17.119)]

I am a new posting to this board. I retrieved all of the documents from Marantha Part 3 through Sunday night and have reviewed them carefully. I must say that it was rather lenghthy, and I am one to cut through all the B.S. and get to the point. I am a memberv of Mid-Cities Community Church in Midland, Texas, covered by Morning Star International, and after I have researched and disected some of the information myself, I will be withdrawing my membership from this cult immediately. I make reference to statement # 5 from Anonymous, Thursday September 16, 2004 at 10:43 P.M. How can I get a copy of the Tax Exemption paperwork (IRS 501(c)3 ? I called Mid Cities Community Church today and requested a list of the board of directors, and was quickly shifted to not being able to be provided that information without the Pastor Kevin York approval who is conveniently out of town. I asked how C. Peter Wagner, Jim Buffoon or Lafoon, and Rick Joyner were associated with Mid-Cities. I got some vague answers, but after probing, I found out that C. Peter Wagner and Jim Lafoon were teachers with Victory Leadership, the teaching arm for Morning Star International. I was told that Rick Joyner was associated in no wayv with Morning Star International, and that was why they were changing their name to Church Nations. This is contrary to another document I found linking them together. I then called the Department of State Corporations Division in Nashville, Tennessee and I have ordered a annual corporate register so that I can find out their corporate structure. They gave me a Mark W. Foster as a registered agent for Morning Star International at 738 Old Hickory Blvd., Suite 210 E In Brentwood, Tennessee. I found C. Peter Wagner Quotes under http://www.deception inthechurch.com/wagnerquotes.html, and my stomach turned over when I read these sayings. And he is the right arm teacher for Morning Star Ministries. He is a Heritic and a Liar.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

TO SANDY: I WAS IN THAT CHURCH ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF. I WOULD HAVE LEFT MUCH SOONER, BUT EVERYTIME I TRIED TO LEAVE I WOULD GET PHONE CALLS FROM MY FRIENDS ASKING WHERE I WAS, AND TO COME BACK. ONE TIME I EVEN RECIEVED A CALL FROM AN INDIVIDUAL ORDERING ME BACK. THAT WAS THE LAST STRAW THAT "BROKE THE CAMELS BACK". NOBODY ORDERS ME AROUND.
YES I WAS WONDERING IF I HAD THINGS WRONG. IT'S HARD NOT TO FEEL THAT WAY WHEN EVERYONE ELSE IS FOLLOWING THE MAJORITY OPINION LAID DOWN AND DIRECTED BY THE PASTORS.
HECK NO I'M NOT STILL THERE. I WALKED OUT AND UNFORTUNATLY, LET MY FRIENDS FIGURE OUT WHY I WAS NO LONGER A PART OF THIS PLACE. I'M SURE YOU CAN FIGURE THE REST OUT, THEY SOILED MY REPUTATION, DISFELLOWSHIPPED ME, AND WHEN I RAN INTO SOME OF THEM OUTSIDE OF CHURCH, EVEN MONTHS AND MONTHS AFTER I LEFT, THEY WOULD NOT EVEN SPEAK TO ME, BUT THAT'S O.K.

[CultBuster (69.92.17.119)]

The posting under Ties To Toronto Blessing on page 5 of 14 ties C. Peter Wagner and Rick Joyner together and also False Prophecies Endorsed By Wagner on page 7 of 14, where he and Joyner with 16 other leders met behind closed doors. Document http:/www.deceptioninthechurch.com/wagnerquotes.html. This is contrary to the information that was given to me today by Mid-Cities Community Church Secretary who stated that Rick Joyner is not in any way associated with Morning Star International. Bull**** ! Lies, Lies, Lies. I want to know more about Jim Buffoons Background. I haven't been able to track down his core beliefs on the WEB other than his association with The Victory Institute as a teacher for Morning Star International.

[CultBuster (69.92.17.119)]

I want to know more TRUTH, can any one help me with more hard copy documentation about this cult? I have made many friends who love Jesus here and I am going to miss them all. I have received several calls today wondering where I am, but I will not answer them yet. I want to uncover all the facts, document them, and approach a few of the men there that I like alot. If they will not listen, I will go in peace and bless them but I will not associate myself with them anymore.

[Sandy (64.218.243.78)]

We were a little shy at first when we found out
what chruch was up to but as soon as we heard
we had been gestapoed by our Cell group leader
we knew the word was out and we immediatly began
telling every one we knew about the false doctrines.
Some don't like to hear it but All of them know
that we didn't leave because we got our feelings
hurt or because we were immoral and rebelious
they know we left out of the love of the truth
Now when they see us they either talk to us
or hang their head in shame because inside they know that there is something to what we are telling them.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

69.92.17.119 , cultbuster,

you have a lot of question that it will take time to answer all of them. First you won't be able to get any info regarding the finances of MSI. NOBODY can. I am already asking what happened to money in World Partner and that money was suppose to go for planting churches ONLY. and Nobody can give that answer either, like what church ? and where the financial statement ? In any type of financial statement, just forget it, Go to the www.IRS.GOV
and talk to them, they might give you an answer.Get their phone number. I don't know if its illegal or not to show the church financial statement, I am not sure, go talk to the IRS.They can help you. I am not familiar with that.

OK , lets start with CP Wagner, CP Wagner was introduced to Rice and Phil by Steve Murrell in the past. Since Steve is getting well known in Asia and CP know every well known minister out there.

Jim Lafoon, I don't know where he came from, But he was also brought in by Steve Murrell in the past.

Rick Joyner, REFUSED to be associated with Morning Star International. There is really no association with MSI. Second , he is a close friend of Bob Weiner. and Bob Weiner have already been kick out of Maranatha, MSI former name. So your church is right on , on this one.

Every Nation chruches Hve not officially change their name yet, they said next year.

Mark Foster Used to work under Phil bonasso, I did not know he got transferred to tennessee.
But his office used to be in Los Angeles Ca. The administrative office is in Los Angeles not tennessee. I don't know if there is any change.
The Los Angeles office would be on Silver Spur road. Rolling Hills Estate ca. call information hotline. They might give you the location and their office phone number.

OK , this also will things a little bit clearer, Every year there is a prophetic conference for all the top prophetic leaders in the country, it is usually held in Colorado. ALL of them do not associate with each other. They just meet, pray and prophesy. Jim Lafoon goes there as a representative of MSI. Each ministries send their representatives.

The hard core documentation , you have to wait on that, its either you do your research on the internet , because MSI history is maranatha and its president was Bob Weiner and his second hand man is Rice Brookes. Some documentation were posted on the past here.

Probably somebody can give you an answer on those.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

CP Wagner comes to teach in VLI probably only a few days in a year. He is a very busy man. So he does not frequently visit MSI. He just comes in rarely. That was the past, I don't know now.

Top teachers of MSI, the ones who teaches most will be Leo Lawson. Jim lafoon sometimes.
There might have a lot of changes in there since a lot of their curriculum also have change.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

I was also told that Jim Lafoon used to be a missionary in the philippines, I think that was mindanao that was way before his association with Steve Murrell and MSI. Maybe thats why you can't find any info about him in the internet.

I hope I have answered some of your question.

[Sandy (65.70.110.5)]

Cultbuster- Read back through the posts and you
will find out a whole lot expecially about
MSI Morning Star International (the group over your church)
Call back and ask if they are associated with
Peter Wagner.

101.13-I still don't know who is who here.
"Brick, 13 and lc 20 are the same person"

[Sandy (65.70.110.5)]

Sorry Cultbusther I didn't see your first post
this board goes by to fast
If you go out for a day there is alot of cathcing
up to do.
I am also trying to wade through all the past posts.

[CultBuster (69.92.17.119)]

Thanks Sandy and C.G. I will be back soon. Good night and may God Bless You.

[GG (66.2.20.16)]

Sandy, no, I think they are different people, just the IP sometimes copies each other.

[Sandy (65.67.239.4)]

That was a quote from an above post, from 101.13
I think I need to just lurk for a while.

If an organization has a 501(c)3 Tax exemption
is there not some financial reporting required?

[another brick in the wall (68.52.137.63)]

Sandy:
Just to clarify regarding that quote. I misread it too at first. But now I realize that it was #13 addressing me. S/he stated that .13 and lc .20 were the same person.

I didn't get that at first too. I read it just like you.

Thanks.

[Anonymous (65.1.94.227)]

Hi CultBuster,

If you want to write me at ulyankee@yahoo.com I can give you more detailed info about some of the corporate papers and etc... it's too detailed for the board.

What I can say though is that churches do not need to file for tax exemption. They are automatically exempt under the US tax code. Believe it or not, they do not need to file anything, and they are not legally required to reveal their finances to anyone. However, churches do generally file incorporation papers in the various states in which they are based.

This does not mean that churches have carte blanche to do whatever they want financially, according to the US tax code. But you have to have concrete, firsthand evidence of fraud, embezzlement, diversion of funds to the inurement (benefit) of a particular individual or individuals, etc. in order to do much. Unless you have first hand involvement in the church's finances, that is difficult to do.

Some of Morning Star's/Every Nation Ministries are parachurch not-for-profit organizations and they do have to file with the IRS. Unlike churches, they are required to reveal their finances. Examples are Champions for Christ and Frontline Partners.

You can look up their Form 990s (the non-profit equivalent of a tax return) on www.guidestar.org.

ulyankee

[CultBuster (69.92.17.119)]

Well I'm back again. Good Morning All. Morning Star International should know now about my bulldog tenacity and that I am not letting go of this until I get to the Truth. Jesus was not afraid to speak the Truth to the Pharisees and Saducees. He did'nt take time to pray about it or think about what he was going to do in the natural to be a great orator and sugar coat the Truth. He just busted them right in the heart and he made them madder and matter when he exposed them. In fact he ****ed them off so much that they hated him and eventually banded together and killed him. So what do I have to be afraid of ? Morning Star International and their cult society ? No Way ! An attempt by the local church to discredit me with my friends and members ? So what, big deal, they can't ruin my life, because Christ is my provider, not Mid-Cities or MSL. Can they get my job ? I doubt it. I was placed here by Christ, and even if they contacted my employer, he is a atheist, and he would just laugh at these buffoons anyway, and it would further entrench his belief system. I have been planted here to witness and testify the good news of Jesus Christ to my employer, and I stand and speak boldy to him when I am led by the Father to do so. Can they stone me to death ? Like Stephen, I could only ask the Father to forgive them. What can they do ? Nada thing except get angry and self-righteous. So ya'll speak out against these false teachers, just the way Jesus did and don't be afraid of the consequences. Hey thanks Yankee, I will be writing you today about the IRS documents.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Sandy and Brick - Sorry for the confusion. There are two people on the board who usually have the number 20 but have been getting the number 13 recently. One usually types in uppercase. I am usually in lower case. (lc 20)

[Anonymous (64.65.136.84)]

To Cultbuster, Sandy, GG, Brick, etc.

As far as I know, part of the legal requirements for any 501(c)3 Tax Exempt organization is that they must provide a financial statement to anybody who requestsd it, especially in writing. GG, I am amazed that you aren't getting written answers regarding the World Partners Fund. What you are describing is an exact duplicate of another NOLR "division" did, namely, John Wimber's Vineyard. A friend of mine was there for 10 years. During this time, they captured huge offerings for a new church building in Kansas City. I think it was called Shiloh. Anyway, the money disappeared and I believe it went to either John Robert Stevens NOLR cult, "The Walk" or to Mike Bickle's NOLR cult that has morphed through various names like, Grace Fellowship, Metro Kansas Fellowship, Int'l House of Prayer, etc.

Cultbuster, I highly suggest you read "Ernie Gruen's Report at www.banner.com to fill you in on a little history with the Kansas City Prophets:
Reuben Doran, Rick Joyner, Francis Frangipane, etc. because theologically (theosophically) there isn't a dimes' worth of difference in all these occult camps of the NOLR. The reason is that covertly, they are pulling their modus operandi from the same source i.e. 17th century English behmenism. You will find the leaders differing on minor points and some of the PIONEER LEADERS that started the NOLR from 1948-1951 simply revealed way too much too fast and had to be shunned and shuffled under the rug!! One of these guys that I'm referring to is George Hawtin.

Cultbuster, you want a real eye-opener? Try going to this NOLR training website and skim the titles of the books they use for training and admonition in [un]righteousnous. It is freaking mayhem! If you believe the doctrines in some of these books you absolutely will get a demon(s) spirit entering you. The demons that are now working full-tilt in MSI leaders were acquired through:

1)the Doctrine of Demons
2) the laying on of hands to "recieve the anointing" (of satan!)
3) the confession of sin to man, specifically when "man" here are the leaders who covertly believe the core belief that they can become co-equal to Jesus Christ through "revelation" which they percieve is the fullfillment of the Second Coming as opposed to the orthodox interpretation of Rev 1.
3) The Manifest Sons of God (MSOG) doctrine is basically the re-worked "God-Man" theory stemming from the Adam Kadmon of the Kabbalah. Yes, I did say the Kabbalah!! You see, their doctrines stem from theosophy of the channeled writings of German theosophist Jacob Boehme (1575-1624) and English behmenist Jane Leade (1623-1704). Both of these heretics are tied directly to the forerunners of the NOLR movement. These forerunners are the:

1. Rosicrucians (Lutheran Johann Valentin Andrae)
2. Freemasonry
3. Quakers (George Fox, etc.)
4. Shakers ("Mother" Ann Lee)
5. Mormons (Joseph Smith)

They all had/have the Kabballah and Boehme's writings as central to their core beliefs of Egyptian Metaphysics i.e. through alchemy and astrology you can become God after you "re-acquire" the lost knowledge that Adam supposedly had.

4) The belief that Adam was androgynous (dual sexed) and so was God!! Adam fell and supposedly was divided into Adam and Eve, so their gnostic quest is to undo the Fall of Adam by performing a massive "Marriage to Jesus" ceremony. This will result, according to their theory, of "One New Man" i.e. the dual-sexed androgynous Adam who, being complete by fusing the "Head" (the MSOG) to the "Body" (the Bride which their trying to make us!). These illigitimate bastards are trying to wed us to them and this New Kingdom Age belief thinks this will result in the salvation and restoration of all mankind as well as their immortality, omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence.

And if you won't comply Cultbuster, you will be tagged with having the "Jezebel Spirit" because you refuse to accept their gnostic sperm (false doctrines) into your soul (the 'female principle').

If you refuse to become impregnated with their many-membered corporate Man-Child and, using reproduction as a metaphor toward restoration, you'll simply have to be liquidated I'm afraid.

Too bad for you Cultbuster!

You questioned their "Apostolic Authority"!

Their the new restored Adam Kadmon! Didn't you know that! Now put you wedding dress on Cultbuster and go to Mike Bickle's "The Call" wedding ceremony to be corporately married to your new husband!!! Click here cultbust for a bird's eye FORERUNNER view of what's to come:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The latest Call was The Call -- Kansas City", which took place Dec 28-31, 2002 with the next major event in California on February 22, 2003., which calls for a 40 day fast. The result of 20,000 youth descending on Kansas City was to enter into a "marriage ceremony." People of all ages were prayed for under a prayer shawl, and "embarked on a marriage covenant with the Bridegroom of Heaven.." A report on CBN relates:
"...From noon until midnight they danced and sang, fasted and prayed, and got ready to get married to Jesus.

All of the previous Calls, in Washington, D.C., Boston, and New York, were about prayer and repentance and turning the nation back to God. But the heart of "The Call, Kansas City" is really about the church returning to its first love, Jesus Christ, and seeing him as the Bridegroom.

"There's going to be a wedding and God is raising up friends of the Bridegroom to prepare the church, there's going to be a wedding!" said Mike Bickle, director of the International House of Prayer.

....during a 40-day fast, Call founder Lou Engle had a vision, in which the Lord showed him that "The Call, Kansas City" was, spiritually speaking, the most important Call of all.
Engle said, "I saw each of the Calls, there are seven in all, I saw each of them as a perfect beautiful pearl, but when brought together became a string of pearls that would adorn the Bride of Christ in this nation. The Call I didn't see, and the Lord showed me on this string of pearls, was this one. He said, this is the pearl of great price, it's the center pearl of the Bride's necklace, and it was The Call in Kansas City — ‘Come to the heartland and get married to Jesus, return to covenantal fidelity. America, return to your first love.’"

...Mike Bickle is from the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, where for three and a half years, a team of prophetic singers, intercessors and others have held 24-hour-a-day praise and worship focusing on Jesus as the bridegroom...."
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You see, Cultbuster!! MSI's new "apostles" under the false "spiritual covering" of "Chief Apostle" Clarence Peter Wagner make up your new husband!!!

Doesn't all this BRIDAL MYSTICISM sound good Cultbuster! Surely this is all scriptural so why would anybody in their right mind ask for a list of the Board of Directors from Mid-Cities MSI church. You might find out too much! This would surely taint your trust in their "apostolic authority" that has been systematically bolstered by Peter Wagner would works with MSI continually by telephone, email, etc.

GG, you made the statement that Wagner infrequently meets with VLI...why do you believe that just because Wagner isn't physically present at VLI very many times that his influence isn't paramount! Don't you make phone calls and emails? As these false apostles rely on their senior leader for their game plan for world domination (Dominion 'Kingdom Now' Theology) and since Wagner has got his plate full with his world-wide organization going, why do you come to the conclusion he doesn't have much influence at MSI?

The bigger question is when did Wagner covenant with the Pope of Rome! Nothing is said about the Roman Catholic Church here even though the New Apostolic Reformation is orchestrated EXACTLY like the POPERY in PEDOPHILE ROME!!!!!!!!!!!!

The best glimpse we have is an historical one. This history of the discipleship/shepherding movement is derectly tied to the sorcery and witchcraft of the Manifest Sons of God movement that was re-animated by the founders and second-generation leaders of the New Order of the Latter Rain. Rice Broock and co. are simply third generation that take their marching orders from the older leaders of the movement like Wagner, George Warnock, Don Pfotenhauer, and many other "Corporate apostolic" entities that are soon to be revealed in Wagner's occult attempt at a paradigm shift; an attempted coup against the WORD of GOD!

GG, what makes you think that this guy Jun Escosar that Wagner is grooming will somehow be a reform agent for this already doomed cult movement anyhow! I could ask him one simple question and that would do it for me, "Do you believe in the existence of apostles for today who claim to have the same authority as the original apostles specifically mentioned in the New Testament?"

If he answers "No" then he would be thrown out so fast he would know what hit him. If he answered "Yes" then he believes the channeled lie by Jane Leade. Either way, he and the rest of this doomed cult lose!!! No winners here! No Victory here! and for absolutely sure, the captive congregants lose because they readily accept the gnostic doctrines without questioning them PUBLICLY.

College students have a right to openly and publicly question any religious system that claims to be Christian. That's one of the hallmarks of true Christianity! Being a Christian means you can inquire of the TRUTH, the WAY, and the LIGHT and get answers, unlike the evil leaders who had to "check with their superiors" at Mid-City Church before they could "release" the names of the Board of Directors that ARE CLEARLY FUND IN WRITING by sending for the Certificate of Authority from the Texas Secretatry of State. What the hell would these leaders do when you read outloud their own papers they filed with Texas publicly?

Who do these bastards think they are for trying to subvert First Amendment FREE SPEECH rights when they get 501(c)3 tax breaks from John Q. Public aka YOUR TAX MONEY!!!!

Besides investigating the twisted demonic theological trail, which has already been done and well-documented in writing, there needs to be a major investigation on the money trail. That has already been started and full-blown investigative reporting by the media is soon to follow, that is, if the evil media doesn't try to cover for their masonic handlers who run the NOLR show.....

Keep asking questions Cultbuster! And you will indeed get the answers. God will surely lead and guide you to the hidden machinery that lies "behind the veil" and when you see it, you will view the very sad little perverts that pull the levers with disdain. The wizards of the New Order of the Latter Rain couldn't even grant a fly a new lease on life much less biblical salvation!! All they can do is suck blood like the leeches they are and have proven themselves to be!!

Here's what God says about the New apostolic Reformation:

Jeremiah 23:14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are ALL of them unto me as SODOM, and the inhabitants thereof as GOMORRAH.

Do you have to go to Harvard, Yale, or Boston MIT to figure out whatGod means by "Inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah? One look at a GAY PARADE should speak volumes.

www.seekgod.ca/gc.htm

Franklin Hall
George Warnock
William Branham
Paul Gervais
Cindy Jacobs
Benny Hinn
Jesse DuPlantis
Bill Britton
Bob & Rose Weiner
Steve Murrell
Phil Bonasso
Bruce & Lynn Harpel
Tom May
Clarence P. Wagner
Bill & Evelyn Hamon
Preston Eby
Cindy Jacobs

The Kansas City Seven:
1. Paul Cain
2. Bob Jones
3. John Paul Jackson
4. David Parker
5. Jim Goll
6. Francis Frangipane
7. Reuven Doron

Evil Seeds, evil deeds
Good seeds (good doctrine), good deeds

Let's have a Revival boys and girls! God is doing a "New Thing" and your the elected seed he has chosen to usher in the New Church for the 21st century. We'll lead and guide you, so don't worry little flock, everything will be OK, just don't question our authority.

What's that you say? No, your not on a conveyor belt and those aren't really whirling cutting blades that are splattering blood all over. Why, that's the cleansing blood of Jesus and God wants you to go under the Shepherd's Rod!! Trust us little sheep. Hey you! Get over here and join the rest so you can recieve your new 'anointing'.

[Actually (198.54.202.242)]

Hi .84
Philippians 2:25 calls Epaphroditus an apostle (amongst many others who were not Jesus' original 11 disciples). If the Bible records the role of the apostle continuing then why should we doubt that? Other Biblical accounts of apostles and their authority have been discussed in the apologetics thread.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

64.65.136.84 I am not saying CP Wagner has no influence over the MSI. I read CP Wagner's book in the past. Not a lot but a few ,way before his involvement with MSI. AND I would be alarmed if MSI got hold of those books, because MSI leaders will take some of Wagner statement and run with it, especially in regards to authority. It will be misuse and I already saw its happening already.

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

Actually,

There is a difference between the foundational apostles, who have ALREADY built the church with Jesus as the chief cornerstone, and whose names are ALREADY inscribed on the foundations of the New Jerusalem--

and other Biblical and post-Biblical apostles (including any REAL present-day apostles, if indeed any exist) who were "messengers" or "ambassadors" for Jesus Christ.

Regardless of whether you believe there can or cannot be apostles for today (and I know there are varying opinions on this even among some of us former MSI and Maranatha members), there can be NO FOUNDATIONAL APOSTLES (or FOUNDATIONAL prophets) FOR TODAY. NONE. THE FOUNDATION HAS ALREADY BEEN ESTABLISHED. IT IS CARRIED ON THROUGH THE LIVING SCRIPTURES, GOD'S REVEALED, INERRANT, AND INFALLIBLE WORD, OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT. WE CAN ONLY BUILD UPON THE FOUNDATION THAT GOD HIMSELF HAS ALREADY BUILT. The New Apostolic Reformation, which includes Morning Star International, claim that they are the restored FOUNDATIONAL apostles and prophets who will usher in the Kingdom of God on earth. This is FALSE. This claim alone shows that they are FALSE apostles and prophets!!!!

Any apostles and prophets for today can only carry, represent, and call people to the Living Word and the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. No NEW foundations, no NEW revelations that go beyond Scripture. None.

This is also a historically orthodox Protestant stand on this issue (and is indeed one of primary reasons why Martin Luther and the other early Protestants split with the Roman Catholic Church).

The NAR's (and MSI's) beliefs on "foundational" apostles and prophets is eerily similar to what Jane Leade and the Philadelphian Society taught... that the restored prophetic "forerunners" would pave the way for the restored apostles to assume the apostolic mantles, names, and offices from the foundational apostles (what the NAR calls the "apostolic anointing") and themselves become the foundation for the New Jerusalem... NOT the literal 12 Apostles hand-chosen by Jesus Christ himself. This is part of the "inner light" that Leade wrote about... that only once we realized this and allowed the "inner light" of our true destiny and authority to be activated, would we take dominion over the earth under the authority of these restored apostles, bring it into perfect unity, and allow Christ to come back in and through us, ushering in the New Jerusalem.

In reality though, this belief removes the one, true Jesus Christ, fully man and fully God, from his Headship of the Body of Christ, and from His rightful place as the Chief Cornerstone. Obviously this cannot be true. Instead, anything built upon this false foundation is doomed to destruction. Anything built upon any other foundation than Christ Jesus is as built upon sinking sand.

We know that Jane Leade's writings are foundational to the New Order of the Latter Rain, that the New Apostolic Reformation is the current purveyor of the Latter Rain movement, and that Morning Star International in particular is on record as being a Latter Rain-based organization.

So, where do you stand on this?

blessings,
ulyankee

ps--I highly recommend getting a copy of the NAR DVD set put out by www.deceptioninthechurch.com - I'd be very interested in your comments and analysis! You too, lc .20.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

I am just saying he is not there physically. But influence, yes very much so.

[Sandy (65.70.109.89)]

2 Tim 3:13
"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived"

I know that when I was in MSI I was deceived
and I think most of the people in these chruches
are being deceived, Even the leaders.
I realy think that these folks believe in what they
are doing just like in every cult and this one
is more deceptive than most because it looks
biblical to the average pew sitter.
What I am saying is that each one in his or her
own heart believes they are doing what is right
from the visitor to the pastor

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Agreed. Everything is so subtle. Thats why it took me years to figure things out. People leaving and disappearing for no apparent reason. And the excuses were always, they are rebellious or disobedient. Don't associate with this person or that person. Don't talk to this person or that person. You just take their words as face value. Even after we left, things start to unravel, the picture gets clearer and clearer. We start to have contact with people who left before us. Start to listen to other people's testimony. What has said and what has been done and why they left.

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

GG-

What you described is exactly what went on at my church when people would leave. They were always labelled as rebellious, undiscerning, or that they weren't dedicated or strong enough to handle the nature of the difficult calling and walk our church was supposedly called to do. We were cautioned not to talk to those who left (which happened as wave after wave after wave of people left)lest their rebellion rub off on us and pull us down. It was almost as if they never had existed once they left, as members just didn't talk about them - like it was a taboo subject to discuss. But oh how the pastor would talk about them. He would talk about them both in private and openly from the pulpit, using them as illustrations of the lukewarm backsliders or the rebellious covenant-breakers or the weak-minded undedicated. It breaks my heart now to think of the people that I didn't keep up friendships with.

Now, however, I am rekindling friendships with many who left before me; alot of us are, actually. The silence is slowly but steadily being broken.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

hmm interesting. I do wonder now, whats their excuse when a very few churches left MSI in the past few years. Its as if they don't exist either. Its one of those taboo subject nobody wants to talk about.

[CultBuster (69.92.17.119)]

I am back briefly to post this message. I will be signing in to the board off and on all evening as I will be working till at least midnite. Hey thanks Anonymous for your recent postings. They have a wealth of information. Right now I have pounds and pounds of printed information from this and other web-sites that I am examining piece by piece. I am very thorough. If for any reason I ever make a statement that stands to be corrected, I am teachable and will listen. But I am not going to believe anything without documentation. Such as C.G. made a statement last night that Rick Joyner REFUSED to be part of Morning Star International. I ask where is that documentation ???? All I have is the two references that I made of last night. So are they not the Truth or what ?

[88 (68.94.152.155)]

Great Cultbuster. You have zeal now you need the
facts and it gets long and confusing.

Also the facts alone present themselves well.
and even better when we don't add our own emotions
to them.

If a person can just see the facts and decide for
themselves then it is THEIR decision.

When I was looking all this stuff up myself I would immediatly discredit information that was
presented with emotions or bias.
Documentation is better than adjectives.

In fact I got most of my information from the
NAR, PDL and other web pages.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Cultbuster , what you can do is call Rick Joyner Ministries, a simple phone call will do. Currently it does not make sense for Rick Joyner ministries to join MSI, since Bob Weiner is in there now.
Also , you can get the book , Apostolic Minsitry by Rick Joyner, on the introduction pages, he gives off warning regarding the coming of False Apostolic Reformation. Some of it will be recruitment of churches, which MSI is busy doing. Another thing he warns will be its roots is from the shepherding movement. Rick Joyner ministries is very aware of MSI past and its roots, since he knows Bob Weiner's past and his roots.

so common sense will be is to avoid MSI. But if you want documentation, my suggestion is to call Rick joyner Ministries.
They don't believed in joining of churches under apostolic reformation. They refused to do that, He calls it ,its a ministry who has a spirit of poverty. Get the book its pretty detailed.

the introduction pages will let you know where they stand.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

THE DOCUMENTATION IS WHERE I GOT MY EMOTION AND BIAS FROM. IT MERELY REITERATED WHAT I SAW BUT WAS UNABLE TO EXPLAIN AT THAT TIME FROM MY IGNORANCE OF WHAT THIS PLACE WAS.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

SANDY I AGREE TOTALLY WITH YOUR LAST POST WITH ONE EXCEPTION. I THINK THE LEADERS AND THE PASTORS KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON. IT IS THE AVERAGE PEW SITTER THAT DOES NOT. THE AVERAGE PEW SITTER THINKS THAT THEY'RE DOING RIGHT, THAT'S WHY THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE COMING AND GOING IN THIS PLACE. I ALSO THINK IT TAKES THE AVERAGE PEW SITTER 4-6 MONTHS (4-6 MEETINGS) TO FIGURE THIS PLACE OUT, THAT'S ON AVERAGE, THE SMARTER ONES WILL FIGURE IT OUT SOONER.

[Sandy (68.94.152.230)]

Do you not think the Pastors and leaders are just
following their leaders and mentors?

117-20 4-6 months!!!! Give me a break!!!
I was in 15+ Oh well I guess two things,
#1 My church was never forthcoming with any
doctrine from NAR and
#2 The change was gradual after it became MSI
The ol frog in hot water scenario
I guess I should be happy I am out at all

[CultBuster (69.92.17.119)]

Thanks 88 and CG. You are very helpful. I will be pursuing this advice. Dig Dig Dig Dig Dig up the Truth ! Nice Song He He

[CultBuster (69.92.17.119)]

I still don't understand that Rick Joyner is publishing a magazine somewhere in my notes called Morning Star ? I thought there was a connection.

[another brick in the wall (68.52.137.63)]

CultBuster,
I can understand your confusion. From my understanding, Rick Joyner's ministry and Rice Broocks' ministry is not officially connected. They are not sister organizations. As stated earlier, it seems that Rick and Rice belong to the same Apostolic movement and/or Roundtable (?).

But I do know that the name/definition of "Morning Star" is very significant to both organizations. That signifies of the same "stream" of belief.

Do some research (different versions of Bible dictionaries and regular/online dictionaries). Look up the meanings to the word "Morning Star".

It will be an interesting side-trip on your journey to Truth.

Best!

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

The magazine, they mail that to me in the past , I don't even read it. I just threw it out, its not really a magazine, its just some prophesies they give. Its not my interest.

[Sandy (64.218.242.234)]

Brick-I typed in Morning Star International to search and I got Esot*ric Order of the Gold*n Dawn.
It is masonic, rosecrucians and who knows what else
check it out


www.western-mysteries.org

read their description. IT sounds like
Later Rain

[another brick in the wall (68.52.137.63)]

Good job. Yes, it does seem to smack of New Order/Latter Rain stuff. Ulyankee and .84 are the definite experts in that area.

However, I do encourage you to keep researching. There are many layers involved in the meaning of the name "Morning Star".

Many layers.

(and for everyone: please remember to pray as you delve into the research of all of this crazy bunk. you will run across some crazy stuff. use discernment as you review info).

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

SORRY ABOUT THE 4-6 MONTHS SANDY BUT MAYBE MY CHURCH WAS DIFFERENT. I MADE A LOT OF FRIENDS THERE IN THAT SHORT PERIOD AND BEING A NICE GUY I DIDN'T HAVE THE HEART TO TELL THEM WHAT I TRULY THOUGHT. I WAS THERE A YEAR TO A YEAR AND A HALF. I WOULD HAVE LEFT SOONER BUT THEY KEPT CALLING ME TO COME BACK. LEAVING IS HARD BUT MAKING THAT DECISION IS THE FIRST SIGN OF INDEPENDENT THINKING THAT YOU MAKE.
I THINK THE CELL GROUP/HOME GROUP LEADERS FOLLOW THE PASTOR (THAT'S THE NEXT STEP IN LEADERSHIP) BUT I STILL THINK THE PASTORS ARE UNSCRUPULOUS AND KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING AND WHO THEY CAN USE. I SAW TOO MUCH OF THAT TOO MANY TIMES.

[Anonymous (64.65.136.84)]

Sandy,

I too locked on to the connection between the esoteric "inner light" doctrines of Joyner's Morning Star and the more overt Kabbalistic occult doctrines of HOGD. One could easily make the poing that Joyner and Broock's Morningstar is like a HOGD "lite" like Bud lite. The doctrines of transmigration of souls and 17th century hermetic doctrines are present in all three "streams" but for a hermetic cult to "make it" on a college campus without appearing occult, the leaders re-packaged everything in nice Christian wrappings. The bottom line is that in all 3 hermetic streams, man becomes a God through doctrine, ceremony, and ritual.

The music mysticism used by the New Order of the Latter Rain looks just like contemporary Christian Music, yet, upon further analysis of the lyrics and in context with MSI's teachings, the truth stands out that Man can alchemystically become a god co-equal to Jesus Christ. The ideal vehicle for this heresy is a reinterpretation of the office of apostle. Jesus becomes the "Pattern Son" and the Latter Rainist thinks of an apostle as one who modeled himself after Jesus only to be "activated" (A favorite term of apostate Bill Hamon's School of the Prophets) by following the "formula" of Jesus Christ. Most teachings of the NOLR are based upon metaphors and allegories for the candidate to follow for initiatic purposes. This is all couched in phraseology so as to keep their core esoteric belief hidden from the "profane" in exactly the same fashion as was done in the secret societies like Fremasons and the Rosicrucian Lodges in the 17th century on forward.

The NOLR is a mystery religion and thanks to modern online access to Early English books, their hidden history can now be revealed accurately and historically. Same goes with their sister organization Freemasonry. Within the last few years the secrets that were once held under penalty of death are now openly revealed in cost effective books right out of Barnes and Noble!! So it is with the NOLR! Their covert plans can now be exposed thanks to modern access to documents that were once considered rare and costly to obtain.

But like the Mormons and Joseph Smith's lie that the American Indians are actually Jews that migrated across the Bering Straight, the truth is now out. A Mormon biologist did a DNA comparison between American Indians and Jewsw and found no link, thereby refuting Joseph Smith's lies. Yet the Mormon heirarchy refuses to accept the evidence because they stand more to gain by perpetuating the lie than embracing the truth!! So it is with their counterpart hermetic brothers, the New Order of the Latter Rain. The channeled writings of Jane Leade are easily refuted in light of how she obtained those supposed direct conversations with "Jesus" and recorded in her journals.

Of course, if you are bent on a post-modern viewpoint where one "trith" is as good as what the Bible says, as exemplified by NOLR leaders like Bob Weiner who preaches on the importance of "Present Truth" over the Biblical truth of scripture (seen as merer "love letters" by oneness pentacostal Tommy Tenney) then you will go down under God's wrath because you refuse to be a "lover of Truth." God is looking for those Christians who will cling to scripture and not the "natur philosoph" paracelsian interpretation of scripture either! Also, you don't need to go to Dallas Theological to practice correct hermaneutics either!

Wagner would be toosed out of Dallas Theological in a heartbeat. Hit the road heretic!

Yes, good observation Sandy! The HOGD is indeed related to the NOLR. Atered states of consciousness, music mysticism, Bridal mysticism, metaphorical intrerpreation of scripture, Adam Kadmon/Manifest Sons of God doctrines, discipleship/initiation, covenants, passing on of gifts through the imposition of hands, declaratice prophesies, deception, sexual deviations, "inner core groups", secrtet cursings of those who discover what is really going on, spellcasting, fortunetelling as prophecy, personal deification, etc.

And here you thought MSI was all about worshipping Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and winning souls to Christ! Never did you even suspect that a group of men would be so arrogant as to think they could become co-equal to Christ and then demand your submission the their false authority! This is a NOLR nightmare and must not be allowed to continue. Yet, these heretics knew there would be opposition to their rula and reign as the returned Corporate Christ or Manifest Sons of God, so they created a theosophical construct to ward off challenges to their flase authority. Even as they did this, the word of God calls the "gl;ue" by which they hold their theosophical structure together as "untempered morter." Look that up in the Book of Ezekiel and see the outcome. The bad guys lose out bigtime!!

[Sandy (64.218.242.234)]

Oh my, I have been reading that verse and I have
wondered what untempered mortar meant!!

"Take the red pill and see how far this rabbit hole goes"

Do you ever feel like you just ot flushed into the real world from the Matrix?

[Anonymous (68.212.50.98)]

Some clarification re: Rick Joyner and his connection to the New Apostolic Reformation, at least based on some facts at hand...

He has been involved in the National School of the Prophets in prior years... 1998 - 2000. I don't believe he has been more recently--or at least I haven't seen documentation of it. He did also contribute an "apostolic declaration" to an open letter penned by C. Peter Wagner after the Twin Towers attack. Wagner also has a link to Joyner's organization on www.globalharvestministries.org.

I don't know if he is on the International Coalition of Apostles. He is NOT on the New Apostolic Roundtable (Rice Broocks is) nor is he on the Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders (Jim Laffoon is).

So whether or not he is part of the New Apostolic Reformation, Joyner does not appear to sit on one of the NAR's core councils, unlike Rice Broocks and Jim Laffoon who DO.

ulyankee

[Sandy (64.218.242.234)]

This sounds kind of dominionist also


"In the New Testament, Morning Star is a name figuratively given to Christ (Rev. 22:16; comp. 2 Pet. 1:19). When Christ promises that he will give the "morning star" to his faithful ones, he "promises that he will give to them himself, that he will impart to them his own glory and a share in his own royal dominion; for the star is evermore the symbol of royalty (Matt. 2:2), being therefore linked with the sceptre (Num. 24:17). All the glory of the world shall end in being the glory of the Church." Trench's Comm. () See also Pentagram
Morning Star can also refer to Lucifer, or rather it is the opposite; lucifer is the latin name for the morning star. "

Wikipedia.org - the free encyclopedia.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

BY THE WAY SANDY, I THINK MOST OF THE MEMBERS OF MSI STAY IN THERE BECAUSE OF FEAR. IT'S KIND OF LIKE A BAD MARRIAGE, YOU WANT TO STAY IN IT WITH THE HOPE THAT IT WILL GET BETTER.

[CulBuster (69.92.17.119)]

Here is one of the documents: http://www.agetwoage.org/ApostolicJustFacts2.htm

Page 8 of 18 Rick Joyner Prophet/Apostle

Interesting that Rick Joyner was knighted by the Knights of Malta, a secret order.

Whoever theyv are ? More Digging Tomorrow.

Good Night Friends.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Even when I was living in fear, I felt this church was my destiny, since they always preached that. Thats why also most people did not leave too. Then when people stop listening to that rationale, We all start to thimk, we are not growing up here, its time to go.

[Sandy (64.218.242.234)]

UC 20
Funny you shoold say that because this is a quote from VLI:
"Jesus said "what God has joined together let no man separate.
This verse not only pertains to marriage but to all relationships to which we have been joined by God."

This claims equal status with marriage for church relationships!!!!

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

CultBuster, just a question, once you get all the facts and know all the connecton, what are your plans ? My curiosity will be more on MSI finances. Because thats heavily guarded.

[another brick in the wall (68.52.137.63)]

Sandy,
When I was first grappling with the whole reality that was unraveling before me... I frequently felt like I had just taken the red pill. And just got unplugged from the Matrix.

It is mindboggling sometimes as I have been in the process of deconstructing all of this too.

[CultBuster (69.92.17.119)]

Hey thanks anonymous for your posting September 22, 2004 at 8:13 A.M.

HOWEVER I WILL NOT BE PUTTING ON A WEDDING DRESS TO ME MARRIED TO ANY OF THESE SPIRITUAL PERVERTS.

And to C.G. last night. I don't know yet what I am going to do with all of this information. Right now I am putting as much distance as I can from Morning Star International.

I am new to all of this, I never even knew there were web sites available to share information on cults, etc. The only cults I knew about were the MORMONS, JEHOVAH WITNESSES, CATHOLICS. I guess I was shocked when I started reading all of this information. It is very lengthy, and I wan't to make my own decisions based on documented facts and discernment from the Holy Spirit.

I do know this, once I complete my studies, it may take a year or so to properly assimilate all of this information, and verify it. I will not be in a position any longer to be misled by these disillusioned self appointed apostles who think that the Holy Spirit is leading them, when in reality their minds are infested with the demons of this world, and their obviuos witchcraft motives to enchant the masses with their new philosiphies that they say that God has given them that supersede the written word. god (little g) may have given them these preposterous ideas in their so called dreams and visions, but I think they just had to much pizza, and had some nightmares and called it GOD !

[CulBuster (69.92.17.119)]

By the way C.G. I don't mean to offend you, but you seem very adept at avoiding my questions, and changing the subject.

[CultBuster (69.92.17.119)]

I'll ask it again. Who are the Knights of Malta, and is this document I referred to last night a farce or what is it. I am seeking the TRUTH only.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Knights of Malta. I read that book years and years ago. This one is located in Europe. You can order the book online, COurage that changed the World by Rick Joyner. Knights of Malta is different from the crusaders, they fought a battle with the muslims while the Pope or the christians were battling politics in Europe. And the muslim were preparing to invade Europe.(300+years ago) Its not a secret order. We just live in america. Europe is a diffeent world for us.
I am not avoiding your questions, I thought you can find that out in the internet.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Tom Siratnak was invited to join the Knight of Malta. He is the former pastor of MSI.

here is his testimony why he left MSI and what MSI did to him.

http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=687

[Uncle Fred (216.226.180.1)]

I stumbled across this site looking on a name search and have been reading with interest. I was a member of Maranatha in 1979-82 and a 'miserable' pastor for part of that time. I say miserable because I was going against everything I knew was good. One of the founders of Morningstar was one of my best friends in high school and exhibited a number of the same controlling traits that many of you describe.

I just want ot let you all know: There is a normal life on the other side. My wife and I were married before we got into Maranatha and recently celebrated our 26th anniversary. We have a wonderful 13 year old boy who is into sports, FCA, and we all attend a large Baptist church in Montgomery AL. Both my wife and I are professional people and have had long successful careers with our companies.

I say all that to say this: We went through all the things many of you are experiencing when we left. It is a good thing to have a site like this as a catharsis; but just remember, your bad experiences will fade in time. Don't try to spiritualize everything, return to the God of your childhood. He is a good God who cares for you. You will get over these hurts; it won't be by casting out devils etc, it will just be by getting on with your life over time. I am a witness to let you know that there are many successful people who have come out of these controlling and dangerous 'ministries'. God bless you all as you get on with your walk with Christ.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Uncle Fred, thank you for your testimony. I know many people who left are succesful professional people now. Some are successful in the ministry. Example One unknown former member literally run away from this place Now he is one of the executives of Veggie Tales. For some reason most of the people I know who left became successful, its like the Lord have blessed them tremendously financially and spiritually.

[Sandy (66.142.26.19)]

Thank you Uncle Fred
That is encouraging but right now my goal is not
to lead a normal life. Now it is no longer about
us. Now it is about helping our brothers and
sisters still in bondage have the truth whether they accept it or not.
In my MSI churh they used to say "We are on the
cutting edge of what God is doing"
I think they were right, only now I see that
they were on the wrong side. This means that
We, Who have received the love of the truth are on the
cutting edge to defend the Word of God against
these advancing apostacies.
To help others like you said to get back to their
first love.
I would love to see your testimony sometime if you have or ever think you might like to post it somewhere.

[Sandy (66.142.26.19)]

gg that is great!!
We have had that thinking that
now we are more free even perhaps to be blessed
more financially because our tithe is no longer
tied to a false religion.
This is not a plug for the Prayer of Jabez :0

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

Sandy and UC 20,

We were told the same thing too... that we were married to our church, and you don't just divorce just because you don't agree with everything they teach. If you agree with your spouse only 80-90% of the time, you don't divorce.

True. But no where in the Bible are we taught to marry the church. Plus, the teachings that we "disagreed" on were essentials of the Christian faith. Not just minor differences in which there is freedom for believers to disagree. But things like the full eternal deity of Jesus Christ and our full salvation from sin and death through his atoning death on the cross and resurrection. "Salvation in Christ alone by grace alone through faith alone." That is an absolute Christian essential, if not THE Christian essential. Christ was not just a man who became perfectly indwelled with the Holy Spirit just at the time of his baptism (very old heresy that was dealt with in the 2nd and 3rd centuries), and he did not get victory over sin for **us** in the wilderness. The Cross was NOT secondary to the temptation in the wilderness. We don't need to impose additional works after salvation in order to be free from sin. Salvation is not additionally dependent upon submitting to a personal accountability partner/cell group leader/discipler. Sorry. Not in the Bible, not anywhere. But taught in our local church, and the worst of those teachings were brought in by Morning Star leaders, not just by local pastors. If we do continue for a moment with the marriage metaphor, this is synonymous with adultery or abandonment by a non-believing spouse, in which Biblically we are no longer bound by the marriage covenant. Yes, you do try to patch things up (which we did) but else is is one to do when these beliefs are applauded and are later defended? We Biblically are not to continue in fellowship with false teachers/teachings like these.

We ARE the Bride of Christ. Meaning that as the Body of Christ, we have one spouse... Christ Jesus Himself. That is the Biblical reference to marriage. But we don't individually and additionally marry ourselves as the Bride of Christ to create this "spiritual family," outside of earthly marriage. We are already the Bride simply by being believers in Christ Jesus!

So otherwise, if we marry, we have one earthly spouse... our wife/husband. No marrying the church. No "pledging alliegiance" to the church.

I went back and looked at our covenant with our church (that yes, we did sign) and it said nothing about always staying in the local church or even how to leave the local church. In fact, all the specific bullet points that we agreed to had to do with our behavior relative to the entire Body of Christ, not even the Body as expressed in our local church. And there was nothing at all there about anything the church covenanted back to us. It was a one sided covenant, and even our side of it was totally general to the entire Body of Christ.

So in our leaving our local MSI body (especially in the way we did so) we broke no covenant or "marriage vow" to the church, because we never really made one that specific to our local church body! The fact that we were joined as in marriage to the church body was something taught and imposed AFTER joining that we never actually agreed to. So what we actually covenanted to was redundant because as believers we already are in the Body of Christ and are already bound to obedience to Christ as evidenced through obedience to his Living Word. We didn't actually covenant to anything more than what we already were bound to as believers. Now if we had continued in some of the programs that the local church was implementing we might have been asked to sign and/or verbally agree to more covenants, but the fact was that we hadn't yet.

But in our staying we would have sinned by accepting those really bad false teachings I referred to above. So any implied covenant or "marriage" to our local spiritual family or larger Morning Star spiritual family (that we didn't actually agree to anyway) was invalidated by the fact that it would have caused us to sin.

ulyankee

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

Blessings, Uncle Fred! Thanks for your testimony! Yes, there is indeed life on the other side! That is why some of us are here... as much if not more for those who are still bound to MSI's/Maranatha's false spirituality and false teachings, than just mutual support and encouragement for those of us who have left. I know I certainly won't need to be posting here forever--it would be totally unhealthy. :-) And I'm sure there may be a few people who are waiting eagerly for that day when ulyankee finally drops off the board, too. ;-)

There IS complete freedom in Christ!

in Christ,
ulyankee

[Anonymous (65.69.154.170)]

Uncle Fred,

I also thank you for your post.

I was involved in Maranatha in 1980-81 and my experience there wreaked a lot of havoc, for a long time, in my life. But as you said, God is good and His grace and loving kindness prevailed.

It has only been the last few years that I have sought to understand what happened to me and others over twenty years ago, and I am grateful for the internet and the incredible information available that has helped provide many answers.

Would you be willing to contact me at jsh660@airmail.net? I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to speak with you further, if possible. Thanks.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

THANKS UNCLE FRED

[Anonymous (65.69.154.170)]

ulyankee,

I hope you don't drop off too soon. The information and testimonies you have posted have been a great encouragement. Your attitude, balance and discernment is also appreciated.

[Anonymous (198.54.202.115)]

This sermon comes from a Southa African MSI website in Grahamstown:

Knights of the Morning Star

¨ Quote by John G. Lake

“I am getting ready in my soul, not to preach the old message with the old fire, but the new message with the new fire—not only to ask men to be good and go to heaven when they die, but to be God-like in character, nature, substance, and being. God is priming our souls. He is going to send forth the living waters and call by experience the new order of Knights of the Morning Star into being and action” (Spiritual Hunger and Other Sermons by John G. Lake, page 18. Published by Christ For The Nations, Inc.)

¨ Who is the Morning Star? Jesus is the Morning Star.

Num 24:17 (NKJ)
"I see Him, but not now; I behold Him, but not near; a Star shall come out of Jacob; a Scepter shall rise out of Israel, and batter the brow of Moab, and destroy all the sons of tumult.

Job 3:9
May its morning stars become dark; may it wait for daylight in vain and not see the first rays of dawn,

Job 38:7
While the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

Isa 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

2 Pet 1:19
And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Rev 2:28
I will also give him the morning star.

Rev 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

¨ Lk 1:78-79;
¨ Knights of Christ, knights of the Spirit, knights of the Kingdom – Knights of the Morning Star
¨ What are knights?
¨ King Arthur and the knights of the Round Table
¨ Sir Lancelot, Sir Gareth & others.
¨ Aragorn from Lord of the Rings, William Wallace from Braveheart

Qualities of a knight

¨ Is 32, Ps 45, Rev 19

¨ Allegiance and loyalty to the King & the brotherhood – devotion, commitment, faithfulness, fraternity, camaraderie, affection, brotherly love. Roundtable.
¨ Courage – physical and moral. Coward was worst sin along with traitor (fear and betrayal)
¨ Virtue – Truth, humility & righteousness vs lies, pride & wickedness (selfish ambition, injustice, corruption, tyranny)
¨ Chivalry – courtesy, manners, culture, education, polite, merciful, graciousness esp towards women, children and the poor.
¨ Honour – dignity, majesty, splendour, glory, integrity, word is bond, faithful, character, honesty
¨ Nobility – we are sons and daughters of the King – the true nobility in the earth. We are all prince and princesses. Princely bearing.
¨ Strength & might – had to fight to be a knight – knights main weapon is the sword.
¨ Essentially they were noble warriors.

¨ Enemies of knights – tyrants, scoundrels, swindlers, thugs,

Valour, humility and forbearance, strength, tenderness, tough, loyalty
Men without chests
Wild at Heart

Revelation 2:28

Revelation 2:28

And I will give him the morning star.


[And I will give him the morning star.] He shall have the brightest and most glorious empire, next to that of Christ himself. And it is certain that the Roman empire under Constantine the Great was the brightest emblem of the latter day glory which has ever yet been exhibited to the world. It is well known that sun, moon, and stars are emblems, in prophetic language, of empires, kingdoms, and states. And as the morning star is that which immediately precedes the rising of the sun, it probably here intends an empire which should usher in the universal sway of the kingdom of Christ.
Ever since the time of Constantine the light of true religion has been increasingly diffused, and is shining more and more unto the perfect day.
(from Adam Clarke Commentary)


Revelation 2:28

Revelation 2:28

And I will give him the morning star.


[The morning star]-- i. e., Myself : so that, reflecting my brightness, He shall shine like me, the morning star, and share my kingly glory (of which a star is the symbol, ). Compare , `I will give him the hidden manna, ' i. e., Myself .
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary)


Revelation 2:28 PP1

And I will give him the morning star.


[And I will give him the morning star] The "morning star" is that bright planet-- Venus-- which at some seasons of the year appears so beautifully in the east, leading on the morning-- the harbinger of the day. It is one of the most beautiful objects in nature, and is susceptible of a great variety of uses for illustration. It appears as the darkness passes away; it is an indication that the morning comes; it is intermingled with the first rays of the light of the sun; it seems to be a herald to announce the coming of that glorious luminary; it is a pledge of the faithfulness of God. In which of these senses, if any, it is referred to here, is not stated; nor is it said what is implied by its being given to him that overcomes. It would seem to be used here to denote a bright and brilliant ornament; something with which he who "overcame" would be adorned, resembling the bright star of the morning. It is observable that it is not said that he would make him like the morning star, as in ; nor that he would be compared with the morning star, like the king of Babylon, ; nor that he would resemble a star which Balaam says he saw in the distant future, . The idea seems to be, that the Saviour would give him something that would resemble that morning planet in beauty and splendor-- perhaps meaning that it would be placed as a gem in his diadem, and would sparkle on his brow-- bearing some such relation to him who is called "the Sun of Righteousness," as the morning star does to the glorious sun on his rising. If so, the meaning would be that he would receive a beautiful ornament, bearing a near relation to the Redeemer himself as a bright sun-- a pledge that the darkness was past-- but one whose beams would melt away into the superior light of the Redeemer himself, as the beams of the morning star are lost in the superior glory of the sun.
(from Barnes' Notes)
Revelation 2:28 PP1

And I will give him the morning star.


[And I will give him the morning star] The "morning star" is that bright planet-- Venus-- which at some seasons of the year appears so beautifully in the east, leading on the morning-- the harbinger of the day. It is one of the most beautiful objects in nature, and is susceptible of a great variety of uses for illustration. It appears as the darkness passes away; it is an indication that the morning comes; it is intermingled with the first rays of the light of the sun; it seems to be a herald to announce the coming of that glorious luminary; it is a pledge of the faithfulness of God. In which of these senses, if any, it is referred to here, is not stated; nor is it said what is implied by its being given to him that overcomes. It would seem to be used here to denote a bright and brilliant ornament; something with which he who "overcame" would be adorned, resembling the bright star of the morning. It is observable that it is not said that he would make him like the morning star, as in ; nor that he would be compared with the morning star, like the king of Babylon, ; nor that he would resemble a star which Balaam says he saw in the distant future, . The idea seems to be, that the Saviour would give him something that would resemble that morning planet in beauty and splendor-- perhaps meaning that it would be placed as a gem in his diadem, and would sparkle on his brow-- bearing some such relation to him who is called "the Sun of Righteousness," as the morning star does to the glorious sun on his rising. If so, the meaning would be that he would receive a beautiful ornament, bearing a near relation to the Redeemer himself as a bright sun-- a pledge that the darkness was past-- but one whose beams would melt away into the superior light of the Redeemer himself, as the beams of the morning star are lost in the superior glory of the sun.
(from Barnes' Notes)


Revelation 22:16

[The bright and morning star.] I am splendour and glory to my kingdom; as the morning star ushers in the sun, so shall I usher in the unclouded and eternal glories of the everlasting kingdom.
(from Adam Clarke Commentary)

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Sandy,

Almost every person who left Maranatha or MSI get blessed in due time, some between 6 months to 5 years. Another person who got blessed in less than 6 months is Melvin Cobb. He is an author, you can look up his book in barnes and noble. Some did became famous.

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

CultBuster,

I just went back and reread your post about your church leadership saying you needed to get the senior pastor's permission to get a list of the board of directors.

However, that is publicly available information. You can get that through your state's Secretary of State's office. It's on the incorporation papers and associated filed documents for your church.

http://www.sos.state.tx.us/ for your state.

blessings,
ulyankee

[Sandy (68.90.138.41)]

I can't believe no one has posted. Where did
everyone go. Did you all move and not tell me?

This board is getting long again, took 48 seconds
to come up.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

YOU'RE RIGHT, I THOUGHT THE BOARD WAS JUST LOADING SLOW ON MY COMPUTER.

[another brick in the wall (68.52.137.63)]

Job 3:9
This is Job's diatribe about cursing the day he was born.

Isaiah 14:12-15
How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
"I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High."
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

Revelation 2:24-29
"Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. But hold fast what you have till I come. And he who oversomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations -
He sall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels
as I also have received from My Father; and I will give him the morning star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

[Sandy (65.67.239.33)]

"I will give him the morning star"

Do you think this one means Jesus?

Ok Who wants to start a new page??

[another brick in the wall (68.52.137.63)]

Sandy,
That is one verse where that meaning, "morning star" confuses me.

Who is "him" and who is "morning star"????

I will start a new page...

[Sandy (65.67.239.238)]

Ok you guys on to part 4
If you are new here then be sure to read this
page and if you want more there are more previous
pages with tons of juicy information on them!!

[Anonymous (65.207.169.153)]

"juicy" information?......in other words...gossip.

[Sandy (69.150.192.237)]

IN-for-ma-tion it is a good thing that helps you
choose what is right.

those who seek information are the opposite of
those who are ig-nor-ant and who choose to
ignore the truth and the facts in order to
keep life stable and retain what they feel they
have gained and to potect their state of mind
from anything that might upset their world.

Most christians when presented with a black and
white scenario, ie choose Jesus or choose error
would, I believe choose Jesus but in order to
never have to face that scenario they close their
mind to anything that might threaten to make them
have to choose.

I would love to hear your testimony 153
how long have you been in MSI church and why you
love it so much. Also if you have any spacific
answers for the so called gosip then feel free.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

I remember talking to a MSI member several years ago, as I told this member of what Steve Murrell preach against religious practices and a preachers going to Steve Murrell church and preaching Shepherding and discipleship movement, This member looked at me and said "be careful, don't speak against the anointed ones"
what struck me how weird this organization is that Steve Murrell is part of MSI. This is Steve Murrell ,Hello ???? These people don't know how to think.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Queestion. These are Facts. 3-4 churches left MSI in the past 4 years. Is this gossip ? or is it time to look at whats wrong with MSI and why they left ? Or another one, 3 church split in 3 different church in california alone. Gossip ? or is it time to check whats going on ?
MSI people would used the word "gossip" to keep you in fear and not put the info out. Its simply called manipulation and Jezebel god is Baal , the god of manipulation. Manipulation is USING GUILT TO CONTROL YOU. Jesus did not use guilt. He spoke TRUTH. He use Scriptures and explain to the people what the scriptures meant.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Gossip is this , when MSI leaders start to tell us the reason why people left in the church is because they are rebellious and disobedient. And these people need to be disfellowshipped without asking the other party why they left.

THATS GOSSIP ! FALSE TALES ! Slandering people why they left MSI ! Thats gossip !

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Creating tales, false tales, lies about people why they left is gossip. Then the lies passes on to different members in the church , starting from the MSI leaders, to one member after another in the church, THATS GOSSIP !

Worst part is , ITS NOT EVEN TRUE , ALL lies ! and then going to accuse people here of gossiping ? what hypocrite !

[Andy (196.2.50.11)]

I was a member of a church that was brought under the umbrella of MSI for about 10 years I also worked "full-time" for this same church for about 5 of those years. I left because of the control and spiritual abuse as well as the fact that there was no forum to speak out. If you voiced your concerns you were ostracised. in fact we have friends who will not have anything to do with my wife and I because we were "negative" about the organization. I don't think MSI is a full blown cult but they are definitely suspect. Since I have left I am now able to enjoy good friends who accept me no matter what I say! And to enjoy Gods unconditional grace. If anyone wants to chat feel free to email me. I am using an alias. God bless, Cheers.

[dottierainbow (66.209.235.224)]

I left the Charismatic group. We followed after the likes of Bill Hamon. The Apostles and Prophets. Looking for groups or chats talking about this. The Church is being deceived with Spiritual Witchcraft.

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

Hi dottierainbow,

There is already a chat on FACTNet called "Christian International Ministries / Bill Hamon" It doesn't look like that discussion thread is near as active as this one but maybe if you start posting others will follow. (That's essentially what's happened here.)

in Christ,
ulyankee

[dottierainbow (66.209.235.224)]

Thank you Anonymous. Has anybody gone through deprogramming after leaving the Charismatic Church?

[John R. Jones (65.13.172.230)]

In 1973 I joined Maranatha when meetings were held in a small house on Washington street. I saw the growth from then untill it's disbanding in 1989. My roommate in Oklahoma knew Rice when he was a colledge student in Miss. Whatever the acronym, alphabet-soup moniker you put on those "ministries" the gospel was/is spread in spite of, not because of them. Thankfully, Jesus, who calls screw-ups like me into His kingdom on a regular basis I know ultimately the kingdom is in good hands-His. Maranathas, ENs or whatever follow the same course that Paul excoriated the Galatians for; complicating the gospel, in exchange for the simplicity of Christ. Jesus' admonition to His followers was to take up their cross (their weaknesses and their inability to do anything about them apart from him) and follow Him. I found when the shepherders, apostles, do-gooders, and others of a smilar ilk sought to interpose themselves between Jesus and myself something was wrong. Those ministries appealed to my pride, my insecurities, and my need for answers to all life's questions and soon. Trust in Jesus must always exist in an atmosphere of possible doubt, weakness, and uncertainty otherwise it isn't faith, or possibly it is misplaced faith in men. We seek an invisible God, who exists in eternity, as a spirit being, there are bound to be areas left irresolute in this life as a consequence of this. As I've learned to focus on Jesus, which is not to imply I'm simplistic, I recognize He has invited me and you on a journey with Him. The disciples didn't sign a contract, see great conquests of dominion mandates matrialize before their eyes, or excell at discipleship itself other than to haltingly follow after Jesus for three years. When He left and told them it would be best for them that He do so and the Holy Spirit's empowerment came upon them they weren't magically transformed into well dressed silver tounged devils. Peter stood up on the day of Pentecost and set the stage for the rest of us to tell in the simplest of terms the truth of the gospel. Paul, an intellect of note to be certain, and zealot wound-up blind and in the care of of a frightened fellow who, save God's direct intervention would have fled in terror from Saul/Paul. Paul sojourned for a while, cooled his heels in Arabia where he learned of the gospel of grace. I frankly had to do the same and as Jesus did with Paul when he un-donkeyed Paul I discovered not only the Gospel of Grace, but the giver of grace itself, Jesus. Religionists, of which Paul was one, excelled in killing Christians. They used scripture, guilt tactics, ingratiated authority, stones, and mob rule to inflict their religion of the church. In Asia they followed Paul around and sought to mutilate the church with their doctrine of circumcision a false holiness. Outward signs of religious doctrinaires always cause pain and disfigurement of the church. Fortunately, as Paul withstood the Judaisers calling them to emasculate themselves and thereby render their supposd authority inert so to in our day the Gospel of Grace is our bulwark of hope! Brennan Mannaing in The Ragamuffin Gospel writes of a time in church history where the leadership of the church sought to embrace a heresey in the denial of the divinty of Christ. In what is termed the "Sensus Fidelum" the sense of the faithful the church at large refused to embark on this wholesale error of the leaders thereby preserving the church. You are the church, whether the trappings of success, numbers, endowment, prowess in chapter and verse, are wreathing your countenece on a four-color brochure or not.

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

John Jones,

EXCELLENT post. I agree with you that the Maranatha-based churches indeed migrated away from the simplicity of the gospel. In my former-Maranatha church, it became a complex, confusing, works-oriented mess of doctrines. Since I came out of the church/cult 6 months ago, I have had to literally re-learn (and in some ways, learn for the first time)the basics of the Word and am surprised, relieved, and grateful that the crux of the Word is a simple message. And it is based in God's grace and love, whereas what I was taught and labored under for so long was based in striving and fear. Trusting in God's love and His desire for relationship with us was replaced with striving for His approval and desparation for "finding" relationship with Him.

Thank you for your post. Great insights.

[John R. Jones (65.13.172.230)]

Matthew's gospel, replete with Old Testament references betrays his knowledge and intimacy with Judaism. How could someone as deeply invested as he become a publican, a tax gatherer, a traitor? His profound cynicism on display, "in your face" disdain for God, God's people, and a religion on which he was thoroughly versed. Gathering taxes for the Roman Empire, and cooking the books to boot Matthew reminds me of me and my Maranatha experience. I find it easy to relate to immoral unbelievers than toward uptight, jugmental Christians. Which makes me a different kind of uptight, jugemental Christian. When Matthew encountered Jesus who though He was Messiah still embraced Judaism, saw the real thing. He jumped up from the table, repented on the spot and followed after the master. Frankly my "Maranatha wounds" have been the very things God has used in His service. Matthew refered to himself in his Gospel as a publican, a reminder of who he was and where he came from. I'm a screw-up. My Christianity reminds me constantly of God's grace and the need to forgive, myself and others to look Jesus in the face, find those I can walk with, harboring blame stalls the act of redemption that gives the wounds worth and my life value. My missteps along the way remind me as one of the AA Twelve Steps put it "my life is out of (my) control and I am powerless to change it." I've found the radical Christianity I sought to carry-out in those days has taken on different proportions and my grandiose notions adjusted to more pedestrian, yet equally profound objectives. Matthew the cynic rode-out the storms, watched Jesus heal, preach Good News, and see a ressurected Messiah in a small room with eleven other demoralized disciples. His recounting of Jesus' ministry, his own life and the establishing of the church through some otherwise unremakable men gives me hope. Indeed it gives me purpose beyond regret.

[jvas74 (jvas74)]

Hello everyone,

I understand there is so much opinions here. I want everyone who reads these pages to understand that no one here is an expert. We are all the average joe or joanne with an opinion. Sure some spend their time in research and found articles they may consider as facts. We must remember we as Christians have discernment of the Spirit. Get your information from the Word of God, not from people who are not even Christians. They read the bible as a way to combat believers. Remember the devil knew the bible well enough to tempt Christ. Use the discernment of the Spirit and don't let their retoric absorb your minds. You should be in your bibles not on blogs from people who are bitter. Be careful you will notice the ones that have much to say usually contradicts themselves.

(Message edited by jvas74 on July 26, 2005)

[aletheia (aletheia)]

Dear jvas74,

Many of the people posting on this board are mature Christians, well-versed in the Bible, who also have discernment of the Holy Spirit. Some of us have been believers 30+ years, trained at VLI/ENLI, seminary, experienced in leadership and years of ministry. For those of us who are younger in the Lord, this blog is a great resource to find out more about Every Nation.

Freedom of speech is being exercised here on this board, and even those who are bitter have a right to vent their feelings - the Lord has used many of us to minister to those of us who need healing and fellowship.

Some of us may not always use the most discrete rhetoric, but IMHO the intent of most are not to dishonor the EN leaders, but rather to inform one another, dialog over various issues, disclose any false teaching in the church, defend the truth, and minister to the MSI/EN wounded.

If you are a leader in Every Nation, may the Lord be merciful to you and grant you greater discernment and revelation of His Truth.

[john_r_jones (john_r_jones)]

Welcome jvas74,
please feel free to dip your toe in the waters of our debate. I invite you to explore our posts and if you like express your distaste for our distaste, it is a place of freedom and discussion.
John

[former_en_pastor (former_en_pastor)]

jvas74

There are a lot of truths being provided to concerned Christians on this site.

Imho, most (but not all) EN-related message on this site seem to be posted in a spirit of gentleness and humility. The members that post on the EN sections of FACTnet self-police the site well. When someone crosses the line and begins to be very disparaging, overly harsh or use offensive language, the other members immediately admonish the person that posted the message.

Most of the dialogue is meaningful, insightful and above board. While I don't agree with every opinion and there is some misinformation, a vast majority of the observations are accurate, imho.

I hope this site is providing an opportunity for people to be healed from their experiences while in EN churches. Unfortunately, I participated in some of the wrongful activities of EN. God opened my eyes very recently after over a decade in EN. I am glad that EN is now part of my past, and not part of my current Christian life.

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Former en pastor-Welcome, I am so glad that you were able to see; and thank you for your post and encouragement. Your healing that is occurring and love for His church are quite apparent. Thank you again.}

[jvas74 (jvas74)]

Hello Everyone,

I know all the posting is done in good intentions. But I fail to see how this is to bring Glory to God. The church continues to fight against each other. The word cult comes from the word culture. The church of Jesus is suppose to bring Christ's culture to a dying one. If you are in a church then you are in a cult.

We do have today Apostles and Prophets. Does any disagree? This will not change until the fullness has come in. Some of the posting is not only anti-EN but anti-charasmatic. Having a form of godliness, but denying the Holy Spirit's power.

EN is bringing the salvation message and people are getting saved and most importantly being discipled. Yes, all this accountability is freaky, but it is biblical. You shall know them by their fruits. What fruits are being manifested here? What lives you brought to Christ? Or are you concerned getting people away from EN? What is the bigger priority? I wish I saw a blog area for strategic prayer for the lost in local areas.

[aletheia (aletheia)]

jvas74:

Defending the true Gospel has been in practice since the early Church with the influx of false teaching. This ministry of "defense" (NT Greek "apologia") or "Apologetics" began to take on a greater importance with the spread of Gnosticism throughout Christendom in the 2nd century.

Great 2nd century apologists like Tertullian (who wrote "Apology" - and coined the term "trinitas" or trinity), Justin Martyr, and Bishop Iranaeus (who wrote "Proof of the Apostolic Preaching") protected the Church from widespread heresy.

Paul exhorted Timothy to "guard the truth that was entrusted to [him]- guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (2 Tim. 1:14 my translation).

Since the early Church, protecting the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ and His true gospel has always brought glory to God.

Many of us writing here have spent a lifetime praying for and leading lost souls to Christ, and discipling new Christians. However, that is not the focus of discussion on this board.

contending for the truth in love,
aletheia ("truth"...)

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Jvas 74, Thank you for your post and your interest. Please tell me what you mean by "untill the fullness has come in" Thank you}

[annelewis (annelewis)]

Just for the record, cult and culture are not etymologically related.

From the Merriam Webster dictionary:}

Main Entry: 1cul·ture
Pronunciation: 'k&amp;l-ch&amp;r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin cultura, from cultus, past participle

Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k&amp;lt
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French &amp; Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate

[jvas74 (jvas74)]

Thank you for your question Coppertree. I will answer this one, but you must answer my question from my last comment before I can answer another.

Your answer can be found in Ephesians 4:11-13

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Jvas74, If read some of these thread, you would know that I have led many to the Lord, and disciplied many also; all this in your group. So you are hoping for the manifest sons of God to come forward. By th way , fruit is also the spirit in your life. As you may know,scripture can be twisted and used out of context.

since you did not answer question, you may not know the answer that is understandable. What did you think of what ex_En_pastor's post. You owe it to yourself to research this. Try some of the link; you now are accountable for what you heard here. Show your self approved. }

[moose (moose)]

hello former en pastor and welcome,

You said <font color="0000ff">"Most of the dialogue is meaningful, insightful and above board. While I don't agree with every opinion and there is some misinformation, a vast majority of the observations are accurate, imho."</font>

While I pretty much agree with this statement, would you mind expounding on those opinions with which you disagree as well as the specific misinformation you have observed?

You also said <font color="0000ff">"Unfortunately, I participated in some of the wrongful activities of EN. God opened my eyes very recently after over a decade in EN. I am glad that EN is now part of my past, and not part of my current Christian life."</font>

Again, would it be possible for you to provide more specific information regarding the "wrongful activities" in which you were involved? How did you become involved with MSI/EN? Would you be willing to tell us how God opened your eyes and what difficulties you experienced leaving MSI/EN? Finally, were you ever part of Maranatha and, if so, for how long?

I very much appreciate your post and can assure you, as it is obvious from this site, many of us have found truth, healing, strength and fellowship from the personal testimonies, extensive research and powerful insights provided by others with similar experiences and backgrounds....whether from recent MSI/EN involvement or going way back to Bob Weiner and Maranatha. Thanks for your time and willingness to engage.

[coppertree (coppertree)]

hi Jvas- looking for your reply, in the Williams translation( he was a greek scholar )
Eph. 4-14 says
so that we may not be babies any longer, or like sailors tossed about and driven around by every wind of doctrine, by trickery of men through their cunning in inventing new methods of error.}

[jvas74 (jvas74)]

I apologize if I gave you a misleading answer to your question. I was speaking on Eph. 4:11-13, but verse 14 is a good. That scripture talks about the fullness, so does 1 Cor. 13:8-12.

As far as the question I was asking. It was about believing if there are Apostles and Prophets today. The last paragraph was intended to encourage thought, but not to be answer (atleast not on this blog). I hope this clears up any confusion I may caused.

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi jvas, the words says that the sum of His word is truth, not bits and pieces. But Jesus, who is the word, had a whip; made by His hand and He later went with this whip of His into the temple and drove out the money mongers from the temple.}

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

jvas74,
Many MSI/EN people find this board while searching for answers relating to EN. That is how I found it - google on MSI and spiritual abuse. I also noticed that the first thing that MSI/EN people do to defend EN is pick scripture to stand on in their defense - like you are doing. I did that too. I asked questions, I listened to testimonies, I watched leadership carefully. Each story of abuse that I heard on this board was similar to experiences I had had. What I started to notice was the pattern - it was not just me. Testimonies of the same control issues and abuses where happening all over the country. I remember the day that I was typing away at a defense of MSI/EN - digging through the bible for a scripture to back me up... and I just broke and realized what I was doing. I was defending a system that I knew had individuals being spiritually abusive to me and now I had learned was being abusive toward others. I was digging for scripture to back up what MSI/EN and I believed instead of reading scripture to discern what Christ believes. I was so unhappy in my church. I was serving day and night. All my friends had left because of abuses. I was being "counseled" weekly to discuss my "issues" with God's authority (EN leaders)...I was being told that my unhappiness in the church was due to my issues with "God's people" and how could I call myself a christian if I couldn't get along with "God's people"... I was trying so hard. But, there was no peace and no love. Just committment, obligation and manipulatively administered shame. All the while I was working two jobs to pay for their "vision" which turned out to be nothing but an equity building experience with no Godly purpose in the end. I was so miserable spiritually and emotionally - then I got sick physically. After serving for such a long time, there was no one to do a thing for me when I got sick - not one person could give one hour to help me.

I don't know your story and I don't know if you care about mine. I just share it in hopes that it helps you. I don't know if you are at peace in EN or not. Maybe you are one of the leaders prospering and living in a nice house. Maybe you have found a way to minister to the poor/sick/needy through your church. I don't know. But, just in case you are posting more out of obligation than peace, I offer you my testimony and understanding. I pray for your freedom through Christ.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Hi jvas74,

A few posts back you said...

<font color="0000ff">We do have today Apostles and Prophets. Does any disagree? This will not change until the fullness has come in. Some of the posting is not only anti-EN but anti-charasmatic. Having a form of godliness, but denying the Holy Spirit's power.</font>

jvas74, Scriptures that teach us to not despise prophecy but to test *all* things have been speaking to my heart over the last year or so. I cannot give in to the temptation to dismiss prophecy out of hand, but must test it. Also the one where Jesus warns his disciples that the hearts of many would grow cold because of the increase of evil in the world speaks to me as well. The main difference between discernment and mere criticism imho is LOVE. Otherwise my heart will grow cold and I am as a useless clanging cymbal, making lots of noise and not doing anyone a whole lot of good... certainly not doing anything for the good of the Kingdom.

There are a number of people much more qualified and educated than I am who consider themselves Pentecostals or charismatics and who do not believe that what we are seeing today is a restoration of foundational and/or governmental apostles and prophets or that we are now in the Second Apostolic Age. A good example would be the Assemblies of God, who have posted some helpful and insightful articles on the Beliefs section of their website regarding some of these issues, including on apostles/prophets. I know the Church of God (Cleveland, TN), which is arguably the oldest of the modern day Pentecostal churches since it predates Azuza Street, voted on this same issue a year ago at their General Assembly and did not accept it at that time... reason I know that for sure is b/c both my husband and my in-laws were there and told me. Also the articles by some of the discernment ministers linked here from time to time are mostly to the best of my knowledge from a "charismatic" or "Pentecostal" position in which they are not cessationists and believe the works of the Holy Spirit are for today. I also attend a charismatic fellowship now which believes along the same lines. Just so that you and others are aware that the issue of the restoration of apostles and prophets is not a charismatic vs. cessationist issue, and that there is much debate on this even within the charismatic and Pentecostal movements.

To be honest, my issue isn't really so much with churches that *openly* espouse some of the things we've discussed in this forum, even things with which I don't personally agree. That alone doesn't make a church "cult-like" imho. My bigger issue was that I was an active member of what was then called a Morning Star church and thought all along that my church was in line with traditional, "classical," Protestant, Pentecostal/charismatic beliefs but really wasn't. I thought I knew, but really didn't know what the movement or its leaders truly believed at its core, at least in the US. To be honest, even with all the research I've obviously done, all the evidence at hand, etc. I think I have some good ideas but I'm still not totally sure.

My current local church just got a new pastor, and within just the last month or so I think I have a fairly decent idea already where he stands on certain issues because he's made a point to tell us. Not generic things like "I'm not as extreme into Word-Faith as other people" but positive statements, including where he stands on the gifts and work of the Holy Spirit, on salvation, etc., and also is using this opportunity to teach us about the difference between Christian essentials on which Christians should agree, like the full diety and manhood of Christ, the Trinity, and non-essentials like eschatology. In contrast, when I asked my leaders where we stood on the New Apostolic Reformation and the restoration of apostles and prophets, I was told that C. Peter Wagner was just a friend. When I asked about Shepherding and Maranatha, I was told that it's not like Maranatha because now you can appeal decisions made by those in authority over you and maybe receive grace from them to do something else if they permit. When I asked if we really believed in Dominion Theology or other Latter Rain beliefs I was told that our local church would never teach anything not in line with Scripture and was given an example of someone who was not allowed to go to a conference for their own protection. When I asked about the (US) Dean of the Graduate School for Campus Ministry coming in and saying that Jesus' victory came not at the cross but in the wilderness, and that we could be men of God just like Jesus was a "man of God" after his baptism, I was told that I misunderstood him, possibly due to a "religious spirit" keeping me from accepting what he said and that I was less than committed to my cell group (I've since confirmed that my initial impression was correct and that I was not mistaken). Since my season in Morning Star/Every Nation, I've had wonderful opportunities to discuss issues such as these with charismatic and Pentecostal pastors and ministers with openness and candor, which was such a refreshing change.

Do I personally believe that the Latter Rain movement was a true move of God, and that now the government of apostles and prophets is coming into place now that the church age is over? No, sorry. I do consider myself a charismatic, probably closer to a classical Pentecostal position other than on my own position on tongues (I don't think they are necessarily always the *first* evidence of baptism in the Spirit). I have experienced the true power of the Holy Spirit in my life, have witnessed healings, including healings I've prayed for, and have heard true prophecies from the Lord.

I personally have posted what I have not to be hurtful or critical, but merely to expose the truth, so that others would have access to information that I did not have a year and a half ago when I stumbled upon Morning Star's/Every Nation's history and affiliations, so that people can make their own informed choices.

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on July 28, 2005)

[masssive (masssive)]

it's about truth and honesty. It's about taking resposibility if you call yourself a leader. I'm sick and tired of leaders high up there on the stage bluntly lying and making people in the church feel so guilty and so hopeless, while the leaders don't move a single finger to lighten the burdens of their congregation. This is dead painful religion, it's a lie from the beginning till the end. It has nothing to do with Jesus, nothing to do with God. It has to do with ambition,pride, arrogance and amazingly stupid thinking 'that noone will ever find out".
How can a person with a heart look at people, who hurt and bleed because you have taught them junk and they followed you, how can one accept no resposibility. For God's sake, these guys look in the mirror everyday when they shave and what they see in their own eyes? Do they even look there? What about youth that never goes to college to pursue their dream, because they've been taught to be afraid of the 'big bad world out there', what about families that divorce because of the religious teaching that sucks all life out of the relationship, what about kids that have been broken and destroyed, labaled as rebelious just for having discernment and hearing the voice of the Spirit? How can one realistaclly expect that after going through such garbage people will come back to a religious system for more?
Yes, God is powerful to turn every evil into good, for His glory, but that is no excuse for the bullies, no excuse for those who manipulate and lie. They will be held responsible. And we must speak up, say straight to them what we think, what's on our heart.
'cause almost noone does. We've been fed fear and doubt, "you should not speak against the annointed ones". Yeah? Should you hurt the annointed ones?
I am emotional and I have reasons for it. It's not that something extremely bad has happened to me, I am alive and well, but this garbage goes on, it continues, people are being hurt again and most of us are too scared to do or say anything. We have to get free

[japinoy (japinoy)]

Hi there guys. I have been reading the posts here regarding MSI/EN, and I found it very interesting because I see many same facts that happened to me here in Japan as well.

I used to go to an English-Japanese church in Yokohama Japan who loved the Lord, preached the cross of Christ, and biblical. I really respected the pastors cause they were nice and friendly.

But after since they started joining Morning Star Ministries from the Philippines and started having VLI school 5 years ago, the church changed a lot.

I was a typical luke warm christian and went to bible college in the US because I didn't had any where else to go at that time. Though I was a bible college student, I was living in the flesh. I never had time in praying and reading the Living Word. Pride was growing in my life cause I was a skilled worship leader and people has praised my talents. I based my life mostly through my emotions. I was music centered more that Christ centered. Then I commited fornication and got my my ex-fiance pregnant and was expelled from bible college (ofcourse). I had to go back to japan filled with guilt, deppression, depression with no hope. It didn't work out between my ex-fiance and me which gave me more despair.

When I came back to Japan, the pastors where really upset and disappointed with me. I don't blame them for what they felt after their investment towards me. They told me I need to repent, to stay away from the youth group, and was told that I was a cancer in the body or was called a bad cell. Though some of my good friends couldn't believe what the pastor said, I didn't blame the pastor cause I know it was my fault and I deserved it. But weeks after weeks, the guilt was becoming heavier and heavier in my heart which produced depression in my life.

During that time, the pastors started emphasizing authority, and saying "Obey your authority (pastors) even if they are wrong, because they will take responsible". And a minister from the Philippines called Joey Bonifacio came in and started preaching prosperty gospels like give more money to the church and God will prosper you.

At that time I didn't realize the false teaching in this group, but somehow I didn't have peace in my heart. And I realized that in the youth group, they lack preaching Christ and emphasized good time, good music, pyramid style authority system, and other of those spiritual junkfood. I asked the youth pastor to preach more of Christ but he told me "who are you to tell me what to do?" And that was the begining of my search for the truth cause I knew there was something wrong.

In my search for the truth, hunger for reading the Word of God increased in my life. I read the Bible everyday for hours and hours. God spoke into my heart. He called my to true repentance to give me peace, healings and restoration in my life. He showed me the truth through lots of lots of scriptures and opened my eyes to see what is happening in the churches around the world.

I made an appointment to talk with the senior pastor together with my parents and told him that I did not agree on what he said about "obeying your pastors even if they are wrong" cause God told me to obey God rather than man Acts 5. There was a disagreement between me including my parents and the pastor.

My family (except my older brother) left the church and seeked where God wanted us to go. Eventually, God led us to a small Filipino fellowship who seeks and hunger for Christ. This is where I grew and matured in Spirit. This is where he restored me and rebuilt my Spiritual life with Christ. I am now married with a wonderful servant of Christ who has the same Spirit with me and are involved in ministry in this small group which the center is the Power of the Cross of Christ and His resurrection.

I've been hearing some updates about our former church that they are much more involved with MSI/EN. I just pray for the pastors over there that God may show His mercy and grace to open their eyes blinded by their false authority and prosperity. I also pray for my older brother who is still in that church aswell.