Maranatha Latter Rain

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Here's a link to the old Maranatha Latter Rain discussion thread:

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/584.html?1109915734

Much of what is here applies to this current discussion.

blessings,
ulyankee

[philiprosenthal]

Paul Daniel amongst his leaders used to teach what sounds a lot like 'latter rain' theology amongst his own leaders, many of whom seemed to believe it - although I never heard him do so publicly. The idea was that if a church or ministry wants to be blessed by God, then it needs to submit to an 'anointed apostle'. He was such an apostle. Any ministry or church not under the authority of an apostle like him was kind of second class. They were Christian, but not really under 'New Testament style' church governance. The hope was that progressively more and more churches and organisations would come under 'apostolic authority' and these would grow as they were blessed by God, while others not under 'apostolic authority' would decline. This theology justified:
i. Why His People should not cooperate with para-church groups (because they were not under apostolic authority).
ii. Why Paul Daniel didn't need to be accountable to other Christians in his church or elsewhere (because they were not apostles, while he was so they were inferior to him).
iii. Why His People didn't need to respect other Christian unity forums (because they were not led by apostolic authority).
iv. Why any independent group in which a His People member was also a member needed to be pressured to come under Paul Daniel's authority.

Needless to say:
i. The above is theological garbage. If anyone does believe it, please post here and I will explain in more detail why.
ii. Paul Daniel was in any event a false apostle for most of his years in ministry leadership.

Does anyone know whether Rice Broocks believes or teaches this nonsense?

[bill_mack]

Phil,

Thanks for confirming that Paul Daniel did indeed preach and teach NOLR theology. The central NOLR theme is:

"God is restoring the office of Apostles and Prophets" and "these newly restored Apostles and Prophets will lead the church into victory in the 21st century."

That theme can be DIRECTLY TRACED to the now infamous "1679 Prophecy" (http://www.passtheword.org/Jane-Lead/60-propositions.htm) from Jane Leade(1623-1704) and the Philadelphian Society.

The Maranatha investigation I started in November 1999 led me to this fact, so then I asked:

1) Who was Jane Leade?
2) What did she and the rest of the Philadelphians believe? What was their theology?
3) What were the influences affecting them?
4) How did the rest of the Christians and Christian clergy in the 17th century respond to these Philadelphians?
5) etc.

IMHO, the "meat and potatoes" of this investigation relating to these Philadelphians answered *all* my questions as it relates to their 21st century followers. The central theme, as expressed above demands a question:

"Is this claim that God has restored the office of Apostles and Prophets true?? Am I really obligated by a Biblical mandate to submit to these new people as declared by Bob Weiner, Bill Hamon and countless other "apostates" in the NOLR religious scheme?"

The answer to those questions can be summed up in yet another question:

"Is the Lurian Kabbalah, including the Zohar, a divinely-inspired set of writings? Is it compatible with scripture?

Here's the short answer: No, the Lurian Kabbalah or the Kabbalah in general is not now and never will be a divinely-inspired writing and it is not compatible with scripture. Therefore, besides the Bible telling me I am not supposed to submit to heretics, the historical evidence shows that Jane Leade and the Philadelphian Society's claims were falsely derived; they stemmed from an erroneous cosmology and adoption of heretical writings.

However, the members of the 17th century Philadelphian Society thought otherwise. They made several fatal mistakes. Chief among them (and these people were very well educated and refined) was they did indeed believe the Kabbalah was divinely-inspired and even believed that it was the KEY to unlock the mysteries of scripture.

The resultant Philadelphian Society writings and prophecies became rare and highly sought after by like-minded people, especially the Rosicrucians, Freemasons, Mormons, Shakers, Quakers, Conrad Beissel and the astrological Ephrata cloister near Germantown, Pennsylvania and finally made it to the young men at North Battleford, Saskatchewan, Canada though the hand of English-born Freemason and evangelist Dr. Charles Sydney Price (http://www.johncarverministries.org/pricebio.html) (1887-1947).

What we are dealing with is a 300-year old live heretical virus . The antidote is for good Christian men and women to take the history/serum and systematically stop this virus in its tracts (not tracks). Like "Typhoid Mary" (http://history1900s.about.com/od/1900s/a/typhoidmary.htm), men and women like Bob and Rose Weiner, Bruce and Johnnye Lynn Harpel, Francis Frangipane, Rick and Julie Joyner, Mike Bickle, Mike and Cindy Jacobs, Todd Bentley, etc. are simply carriers. They can spiritually infect you like "Typhoid Mary" if you allow them to "prepare your food" i.e. the Word of God is hermetically twisted according to the Philadelphian recipe and then force fed to you and 10s of 1000s of unsuspecting spiritually hungry people like those who will be coming into the Azusa Street Centennial in Los Angeles on April 25-29 (http://www.azusastreet100.net/).

[philiprosenthal]

Bill. Your information is interesting, however, I think that we may differ in that I and many others in EveryNation do believe that God is as you say above 'restoring the office of apostles and prophets'.

Nevertheless, I do not believe that:
i. Everyone who claims to be an apostle or prophet is actually so. In fact, I would rather argue that a genuine prophet or apostle doesn't need to go around saying so - because it should be obvious to everyone. For example, I argue that John Wesley was an apostle in the sense that he went around planting churches, evangelising on a huge scale, working miracles and governing those churches.
ii. That the 'latter rain' teachings on apostleship are biblical. To me they are just an excuse to satisfy human ambition and lust for power and glory.

From your other posts I guess we are in different places theologically, but I feel it is necessary to clarify for readers that one can belive in modern apostles, without believing either the 'Latter Rain' teaching or supporting the type of authoritarianism practiced by Paul Daniel and Rice Broocks.

[bill_mack]

Phil,

I think you and I would agree when we define what the NOLR means by "Apostle" and "Prophet." They have different meanings that what scripture refers to. These people have openly declared that their new "authority" is equal to or greater than that of the original apostles and that the Bible is simple God's "Love letter" that is still unfolding through new revelation. The concept of human evolution toward godhood is alive and well within NOLR teachings. Sandy Simpson brings this out in his expose' on the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/nardvd.html). I am saying there is a world of difference between a 21st century missionary/apostle from an orthodox denomination and "Super Apostle" C. Peter Wagner's NAR that are wrapped and bowtied with Christian nomenclature.

Have you seen this video expose' yet??

[philiprosenthal]

Bill. The above comments are helpful, but there are a variety of beliefs on the apostle and prophet authority. Some His People leaders under the influence of Paul Daniel held to beliefs that sound very much like those of the 'latter rain' movement, as I explained above, but they are not as extreme as the way you define it above. Paul Daniel never claimed his words were anything on a similar level of authority to scripture or to evolution towards godhood. The latter belief I think is more linked to the Gnosticism of a different branch of the Charismatic movement. It is not His Peoples problem. Maybe you could call Paul's teaching on apostles 'mild latter rain theology'. What you are talking about is extreme cultic Latter Rain heresy. It is not a fair label to put on His People. I would suspect that after Paul Daniel's fall a lot of leaders would have re-examined the scriptures regards their theology about apostles. I certainly did and modified my beliefs significantly although not dispensing with the concept of apostles altogether.

This led to a lot of research, which led to me writing these articles on church governance:
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/17344.html?1142615747

I would most appreciate comments on them.

[sharon]

If you have truly read Jane Leades work then you will know that within that work it is said that you will not understand what is being said if the work is not meant for you, and if you are not an over comer of this world then it is not you. So are you an over comer? Are the they?That is the first thing one must do to understand what is written. Do you eat flesh, or drink booze? Do you smoke or use language not intended for Gods ears? Did you take all but love from your heart, and do you love your enemies? Do gluttony or lust tie you to this world?
You see Jane herself says that God told her that this was not written for her or her generation. He made that clear. She is describing a world she does not understand because it does not exist in her time. But that is often forgotten, as is the method of becoming like God. Jesus tells us this also but that to is forgotten . We are also warned within the work that it will be distorted and used by those who do not understand what is being said. The ones who want to walk the path but not do the work necessary to do so. One can not walk on the road with a body full of the pain and suffering of this world. One can not walk this road with material ropes binding them here, or chains of addiction. This is what her message says, one must overcome and be a warrior for the Lord.
Even she in her place in time sees that this is a journey few will make and she says so. But no one needs Jane to tell them that , for we all know in these times many will give lip service to the Lord while doing as they please. If these say they belong or follow Jane you will know that they lie.
I have not really read Jane in years but when I did I read all her works, including her journals. While I did not understand all, when I was done I fasted and removed from my life the ties to this world that I could see. One does not need a church or ministers for this, one must only do it.
One does not follow Jane for she makes it clear she is only the vessel of the message, and does not understand all the message says . She also makes it clear it is for those who do understand in the future. There is no need to build a religion around her as those who get the message do not have a need of such things to do what must be done. The building of the temple is within not without. But it is told that those who build the temple within will one day built the temple without.
Jane is not saying follow me, she is saying follow Jesus. The church she speaks of is not on the earth but meets in the air, that is what she describes those who follow Christ. That she would know from that time that this church did not need to meet in person, that they would not gather together but meet in prayer in the air is amazing. Again something she described but did not understand.

[sharon]

So here is the thing , if you want to understand what is written be an over comer of this world. Then read what was written , not what others have written about her. But what she wrote and think of Jesus saying we have the same powers as he , if we had the faith. The faith to move mountains. Jane is not saying something new, but some see it as a power grab. This is what those who are not over comers see. They are blinded to what is really said. For when you overcome this world that is your power. It is like the gift to cast out demons comes with fasting and prayer. That is a power that Jesus had and is offered to any who follow Jesus in this . So what else is there. This is not a journey for the faint of heart for the chains that bind are often broken at great expense. But then to those who break these chains much is given. Kingdoms. That is not Jane’s promise but the Fathers. The Fathers promise to Jane was that she was not to worry that she would miss this great time but that another age was to pass over her and she would not miss this new awaking.
Below is one of the sixty props. See what I mean even here she does not know what the Philadelphian Church is, that is a clue to how much of a messenger she is, a vessel.
{The presence of this divine ark, will constitute the Philadelphian Church, and wherever that is, there must the ark of necessity be.}
After reading of this church with this in mind you will see that many would run away rather than attempt what is necessary to enter this church. Jane in her time could not have been a member of this church. Nor I now as I write this. But that does not stop me from trying to prepare myself for the day I may find myself with the strength to do so, but I have a long journey ahead of me.
While I am not a prophet I can say with out much worry that we are entering a stage where we are about to pay for our treatment of creation. Many eat a curse placed upon us when we still worshipped or sacrificed animals on the alter to our Father. You would be wise to remove yourself from the tables of flesh and keep your children from them. Not just the flesh but all that causes suffering to those who innocence we destroy. Not a prophecy just a hint. When Jesus comes back to all of creation , creation does not say good things of man. It would be best if you did not have the blood of his lambs in your veins. You think me wrong, you think Jesus ate meat. I can tell you he did not. But you would not believe me because you do not want it to be so. You think the bible will protect you from this with it says this or that. You are wrong. Many will say that not killing means only man, and some even say only good men. They are wrong.
I sit at a table and have a turkey dinner. When asked I say we had a turkey dinner. But I do not eat the turkey as my family and friends do. I love them and Jesus loves them. But they are not breaking the chains of this world. Putting death within us, as Da Vinci said we are burial places. He thought man would learn in the future and all would see the eating of flesh as he did but that has not come to pass. Maybe some day. Thank you for your patience .
Hope you have what is needed to enter into this church. Those who claim leadership must be empty of this worlds chains and have only love to give to those who are still suffering within this system. But I do not yet see this church in this world. But I do see some foundation work. I wait for the day. See you there.
Ps please do not write of all the ways in which it is ok to kill and eat flesh. I have heard them all as you can imagine.

[40days40years]

Sharon, God told Peter to kill and eat (what about that) and now your saying I should be a vegetarian like a Hindu? Even Jesus ate fish and I assume he ate barbecue to. Fish have personalities to and the smarter varieties are smarter than a dumb lamb or sheep. When a fish is pulled out of the water pain is being inflicted on it don't kid yourself. Your saying only an overcomer will understand the words of Jane Leade? I am investigating this but if those who believe what Jane wrote end up being major religous leaders under the authority of the false prophet it seems you are letting Jane off the hook and in essence saying, "hey those guys did not understand what Jane wrote".

What type of church do you go to, did christians recommend Jane Leade to you? Thanks for dropping by but you may have walked into a lions den. You may have just lit off a big stick of dynomite here.

[bill_mack]

sharon,

Thanks for posting here on the issue of Jane Leade. I see at least there is one person who read excerpts of what she said. I must say, on my initial read, I too was taken back, especially at how it relates to the NOLR leaders, including one of Bob Weiner's mentors, Royal Cronquist, who lived and breathed the 1679 Prophecy (60 Propositions) which you obviously are familiar with.

Here's a $10 question:

Q1: Have you ever had a chance to read "The "Theosophical Transactions of the Philadelphian Society"???

Q2: Do you understand who John Pordage, Francis Lee, Richard Roach, Thomas Bromley really were and exactly why they formed the Philadelphian Society?

Q3: Do you know what source they used for the timetable in which the Philadelphian Age was supposed to enter?

Q4: Are you familiar with the basic doctrines of the Lurian Kabbalah and how it relates to the Philadelphian Society's understanding of the reincarnation of Israel's souls, including the souls of the original apostles and prophets, into their genetic descendents in the 21st century (the real meaning behind "Spiritual DNA")??

Jane Leade and the members of the Philadelphian Society made a huge series of mistakes based upon assumptions that simply violated scripture. They were scholars in their day without question. However, they laid down what they percieved as a treasure and buried their "Philadelphian Gold" is a somewhat veiled linguistical code much like the the Da Vinci code. Once you know the keys to the code, which they explain in the Theosophical Transactions, everything unfolds and the theosophical doors to their time-treasure is revealed. Even Isaac Newton was fooled for many years identically the same premise.

Check this:

The Theosophical Transactions of the Philadelphian Society
The Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society

Mere coincidence?

It would be interesting to witness your reaction to rare Philadelphian Society documents along with several academic studies recently published. Truly, if you follow scripture, then you would want to "try the spirits" and "prove all things," right? If so, and you sound sincere, then you owe it to yourself as a Christian to carry this out. If you don't, are you willing to be turned into Philadelpian Fool's Gold and wind up in an everlasting alchemystical fire? I'd think not.

Try getting an Interlibrary Loan copy of the following book:

Coudert, Allison P. The Impact of the Kabbalah in the Seventeenth Century: The Life and Thought of Francis Mercury van Helmont (1614-1698) (Leiden; Boston: Brill, 1999) (http://www.brill.nl/m_catalogue_sub6_id2558.htm).

[robert_unknown]

"Paul Daniel amongst his leaders used to teach what sounds a lot like 'latter rain' theology amongst his own leaders, many of whom seemed to believe it - although I never heard him do so publicly. The idea was that if a church or ministry wants to be blessed by God, then it needs to submit to an 'anointed apostle'. He was such an apostle. Any ministry or church not under the authority of an apostle like him was kind of second class. They were Christian, but not really under 'New Testament style' church governance. The hope was that progressively more and more churches and organisations would come under 'apostolic authority' and these would grow as they were blessed by God, while others not under 'apostolic authority' would decline. This theology justified:
"





The question is "what is an apostle"?

Its clear that there have been more apostles than "only" the 12 that Jesus send out to bring the gospel to the world. If You read the letters of Paul, in the last part there are always greetings to other leaders. There You can find poeople he was refering to as "apostles".

If we read the scripture about the five-fold-ministry in Ephesians, we still see that Apostles and Prophets are part of the body of christ!

The big problem is our business-oriented mindset in the western-world. we always seem to connect "ministry" with a hierarchy. so - of course - we think an apostle is the one who "rules the church" like a CEO "rules" his business. The bible is very clear about ministry! it talks about SERVANTS! it has to do with gifts and abilities. and - above all - it has to do with CHARAKTER!

so - i dont have a problem to believe that God still appoints Apostles and Prophets! But i have a big problem with the way this is abused! The apostolic and prophetic gifts have never ceaced during the centuries. read church history, and you see the prophetic happen again and again (for example J.Hus when he was burnt on the stake, for example the Hutteran, for example Missionares...).

I have heared much of the HP teachinhgs and was teaching it by my own for many years in bibleschool. there was - what i can see - no overemphasis on the apostolic. churches with no "apostolic covering" werent seen as second class.

i do admit that there have been individuals how over-emphasised the whole thing! like one guy in europe. of course there ws no signs of the apostle, but a lot of lies to "proof" the ministry!

"Why Paul Daniel didn't need to be accountable to other Christians in his church or elsewhere "
I have no idea. in the charismatic church leaders often tend to feel uncomfortabel when someone else knows too much about one. but thats not a PD problem.

"Why His People didn't need to respect other Christian unity forums (because they were not led by apostolic authority). "
? thats new to me. HP even was part of the evangelilcal alliance - as far as i know. there was also never a negative word about other churches, moves...

"Why His People should not cooperate with para-church groups "
what is a para-church??

" Any ministry or church not under the authority of an apostle like him was kind of second class."
i c

[sharon]

I did not rush back here as I assumed I would be torn to pieces by those who were here. I am really surprised to hear such replies. You are all much more educated in all of this than I. I did not seek out Jane it was forced on me, and I tried to walk away more than once but in the end I had to take it in and see what I could see. You all are looking at this of your own free will?
I am born again and have been so for over twenty five years. I called myself born again when I did not know what it meant but that I was given a new life by my Father, whom I preached against as a hateful and cruel god that only fools would follow. I can tell you many stories of how he brought me to my knees but you have probably heard this from others who were forced to their knees.
I have not read most of what others of her kind have written as I have not had them forced upon me. Of which I am thankful. Very thankful. Just her journal alone took so much time to read as I had to keep trying to keep in my mind all that she had said before. But I will say that after reading her journals I was told to fast, which I had never done, nor even though about. I shocked my whole family and fasted for forty days and on Easter Sunday returned to church after twenty years.
I should mention here I was told by my Father that I was to stay out of the churches and to put the bible down. The bible I had used as a weapon to prove what an evil god he was still spoke that to me. But I did not really think he meant for me to stay out of the churches. So I went, running here and there trying to find others like myself , being sure the churches were full of them. In the end I stopped. And waited.
He sent me to the church closest to me and while it has no stain glass or steeple it is filled with wonderful people. Well more choir than anything but I love to sing praises to the Lord so it was perfect for me. I still go, it has been two years. There is a different domination every second week. I do not care for which, just that they sing praises to my Father. They do not know that I fasted forty days before I went or that my Father speaks to me. So you can guess they do not know of my following Jane, who showed me that Jesus is who he is and needs us to be warriors.
I am fighting that battle, by cleaning my mind of impure thoughts. By cleaning my body of the same. I quit booze, cigs, and flesh. I walked away from my earthy life and am still on that road.
I face much opposition to what I say. Especially the flesh part. But hear this I did NOT quit flesh , it was taken from me. When it was gone and people would ask I would say oh, no it has nothing to do with religion. I believed that and thought I had just come to love cows. I told my friends , but do not worry I will never give up chicken, those nasty birds are cannibals and I feel not a bit of sorrow for eating them. Then they were gone. But you see on that road I have gone even farther, I eat nothing of which was gained by sorrow or pain. I do not drink milk or eat butter, wear leather or any of the other things that cause pain and sorrow for the giver. You may think I am wrong in this, but I have heard creations cries against us, we are truly burial places. I also did not learn this from Jane, I did not understand Jane when I first began to read her, all seemed like a bunch of goobbly gook. But my Father insisted I read, and you would laugh if you saw the ways I fought this.

[sharon]

Many think Jesus eat fish but after I read what was written I realize I also did the same, if you asked what did you eat for thanksgiving I would say we had turkey and all the fixins. But the fact is while all ate turkey I did not. So I saw how it could be, as I did not understand why I was asked to do what Jesus had not.
You can just imagine what a popular Christian this makes me. I cook meat for my family, as no one quits who does not believe and let me say here, Jesus told me he would always be with me, and he told me so when I was full of flesh and other things . So I do not fear that he does not love those who eat flesh. And I fully understand Jesus and the fishing thing. Which I would not if I did not feel the same way myself. But I have moved them as far as I can from eating of flesh as I have the worst feeling that my Father took it from me at this time because something is going to happen.
I know it is hard to believe all of this, you should have seen the fight I put up. But I will tell you this, it is been the most wonderful journey a person could make and the end result is amazing. Unbelievable.
You Bill could tell me many things of which I am unaware. The road I walk is very narrow, and I am open to hearing anything that helps me in my walk.
I am not a part of any group or society , I stand alone in my belief. My struggle against being part of this was great, but I lost that battle and now I am about to read her works for the second time. Again it is not because I want to but that I need to. I feel compelled to do so and I know that nothing will do until I do what I am supposed to do.
Thank you for not tearing me to pieces . These others you speak of John Pordage, Francis Lee, Richard Roach, Thomas Bromley , did God also speak to them? I of course see them mentioned every where with Jane but feel no push to read them or even look at them so I have not. But that is not to say I never will , I have learned not to say I will never.
Forty …. Hope this answers your questions. I liked the way you all wrote without trying to hurt me. Many are not the same. Hope to continue this conversation as I believe I can learn much here to help me on my road. For my Father told me I was in need of teachers. May God Bless You.
I think I forgot to mention I was saved by and all comsuming love from my Father. That is who I am.

[robert_unknown]

one things to consider:
to pick up your argument that Jesus did not eat flesh (which is an assumption):
Jesus did not eat tomatos. he didnt eat chokolade, nor did he trink coffe. are these things unholy just because he did not eat them? are we ment to avoid these things?

Math 7,18 Jesus declares ALL food clean
Math 15,16 food doesnt make a person clean or unclean!
Tim 1,6-11 Laws that forbide certain food are heresy
Rom 14,2 do not argue about opinions. the one who believes eats all, the week doesnt eat meat...

what i want to say: it doesnt mean anything, from a scriptural point of view, what you eat. the only concerns in NT about food are adressing overeating ;)

just go after your conscience. if you dont want to eat meat - its up ro you.
no one will argue against this, because bible doesnt want us to have an argument about this ;)


(Message edited by robert_unknown on June 13, 2006)

[sharon]

Robert... To actually follow what I am doing here is not to say that one can not eat animals. It is to say one can eat what was given in the beginning. On the first page of the bible. Grains, fruits and vegetables. These I give you for your meat, this is what God says. Jesus says all food is clean, I believe this to be true, but flesh is not part of what is to be our food. Remember it also say do not sit with drunkards and flesh eaters. I said in the first message I wrote that I have heard all these things before, and I have. These are my beliefs, and I follow them. Others do not, it does not make them saved or lost. This is not an argument, I cook what my family wishes to eat, and I do not argue with them. I find those who stand so against it as to want to declare it wrong are often those who will in the future embrace it. So watch out.
What is to be gained or lost by the eating of flesh is not your soul. Do not think I am saying that, for it is like all things it comes with its own punishments or rewards. If you go to a bowel specialist he will tell you to stop eating meat, not because Jesus did but that it is rotting in your bowel. If you plant an acorn you will get a beautiful tree, if you plant flesh you will get maggots.
Even if you never believe what I am telling you please listen to just this one, no more pork. It is the worst of the cursed flesh. God did not tell me this, science told me this.
After I became vegan I began to look into what is happening. This is what made me speak out, not my own path. But what I saw when I looked into the health of man, such nasty tricks. Milk is one of the nastiest. It is the number one cause of allergies and ear infections in children. Number one, and lets not talk on fat intake in an overweight society. But you do not need me to tell you this, for you have the internet yourself , go and see if what I say is not true. God may have taken these things from me, but I did not know why, I had to find that myself. Do the same for yourself. On the milk thing, remember all the ads you see on Drink more Milk, get more calcium are placed by the Diary industry. Do you know how they get cows to keep giving milk, and what happens to all those who are born as a result. It is heart breaking, and sick.
Last but not least can you in your imagination see Jesus slicing the throat of that lamb he carries and letting its lifes blood drain out. That is how I began. At the beginning. But if you do not find this to be so, then you are welcome to eat all the flesh you wish as all doors are open to you, none are shut. Jesus love does not depend on what you eat.
And you are not alone in this being the thing I say that people do not want to hear. You are amoung the many. Check it out for yourself. May God Bless You.

[ontheroad]

Sharon,

In this post from the original Maaranatha/Latter Rain thread, you claim to be the reincarnation of Jane Leade:
http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=58289#POST58289

Do you still claim this? How do you back up the concept of reincarnation with the Word of God?

[bill_mack]

Sharon: These others you speak of John Pordage, Francis Lee, Richard Roach, Thomas Bromley , did God also speak to them?

Q1: I'm curious. What was the first year you came across and started reading Jane Leade's writings? Did you first see them online or did you come across print copies somewhere?

Q2: What intrigued you the most about her writings? Was it the fact that they are written in renaissance-era Elizabethan English that was within 60-years of when the King James Bible was published? What is because of her seeming committment to doing what God wants in the form of Spiritual Warfare? Do you identify with her as a woman who is consumed with fighting the forces of evil that have come against the church and causing division?

You said,

"But I will say that after reading her journals I was told to fast, which I had never done, nor even though about. I shocked my whole family and fasted for forty days and on Easter Sunday returned to church after twenty years."

Q3: Which church are you referring to? Who are the pastors?

Q4: Does the name William Branham mean anything to you?

The reason I brought up John Pordage, Richard Roach, etc. is because we cannot understand what Jane Leade and the Philadelphian Society is all about until we look at who the members were, for what cause did they work together and what they expected to happen in relation to the Second Coming as they percieved it.

You probably have never read it, but Jane Leade and the rest of the Philadelphians believed that the jewish Kabbalah was divinely-inspired as is the Bible. The Philadelphians decided that the Kabbalah provided answers to the mysteries found in the Bible. They used the Kabbalah to "unlock" the mysteries in the Bible.

Q5: What do you think sharon? Do you think that the Kabbalah was divinely-inspired? Could Christians gain a better understanding of scripture if they read the Kabbalah?

[speakword2004]

How about Fruitcake, Sharon? It is made of fruit, but was not there in the beginning. By your logic we should be all eating raw vegetable and fruit and swinging from the trees after wild honey.

You have a very half-baked philosophy. St Peter would have been one of the heretics in your book after God commanded him to eat from the net things prviously considered unclean. You are coming here and casting your wierdo jusgments as if you were some holier-than-thou Vegan Mother Theresa.

Go back to the section where you normally post. We are not interested in your insertions here. You have nothing to do with Every Nation/MCM and furthermore too many nuts in my fruitcake don't make it special.

I'm off to slaughter a pumpkin for dinner!

[speakword2004]

Bill,

It could be a familiar spirit in Sharon that is attracted here. Verey strange that she says she is Jane Leade. Either Sharon is mentally unstable or she is indeed possesed of something very deceived.

[robert_unknown]

@sharon
the vegans i know look "healthy" like dracula. sorry - i dont want to mock on you. if you like beeing a vegan, just feel free and go for it. God is great and loving enough that He doesnt have a problem with what you eat or dont eat.

But you can definitely NOT base this believe on the Bible.

[speakword2004]

Robert

She is not a regular poster here on the EN section. She has come on here before. It is just irritating when she does this.

Go away, Sharon!

[formermaranathapastor]

A vegan diet is very healthy, and it is better to not use cow's milk but switch to soy milk.

But I am not religious about it, let everything be done in moderation.

[formermaranathapastor]

Bill-

Christian mysticism, the Kabbalah, and Sufism, are all very closely related, in that they are the gnostic or mystical brands of Christianity, Judahism and Islam respectfully. They are all very close in that they emphasize "inner light" and inner "knowing", and believe that the physical plane is subject to the Spiritual. They also believe that Jesus' death and sacrifice were spiritual and not physical, and they believe that Jesus came to show us our divine nature, that we are all part of "God" or Spirit.

In all fairness, Every Nation does not believe this, in that they believe Jesus was the Only God and salvation is through Him alone.

[speakword2004]

FMP EN website official FAQ claims that MCM practised mysticism! You should know.

[john_r_jones]

Bet they wish they had enuff mystical horsepower to make MCM disappear. Or for that matter US!
John

[bill_mack]

FMP: In all fairness, Every Nation does not believe this, in that they believe Jesus was the Only God and salvation is through Him alone.

The central theme and meaning of "Apostles" has been traced to Jane Leade's "Order of Melchizedeck" and ENC is neck deep in this. Yes, outwardly MCM/ENC appears to reject mysticism, but they were formed by the 300-year-old mystical propositions of the restored office of apostles and prophets. It's a mixed bag -- truth with error -- but the historical chain is all there as well as the false authority structure. I wouldn't have believed it either had it not been for an academic historical study. I do not fault you for not seeing it right off either. All I can say is that I have disseminated the evidence to other scholars and they came to the same conclusion.

Ulyankee, any thoughts here?

[sharon]

Mr. Mack and On the Road… That is a lot of questions, very few of which I can answer. For I have never read of most of the others who belonged to this group. It is I who come asking questions. First is it you On the Road who was back there in 2003 and answered my questions then.? Just wondering. I will say that was the boldest thing I ever wrote. I do not regret it, but I left then as it was all I could do. I only return because this site came up in a search that was directed at Jane. Sharonballoch@hotmail.com. I will gladly answer you if you wish me to write but you can see others here do not wish to hear me speak and I do not wish to cause such discomfort. This is goes for you Mr. Mack also .
As to what church , I found Jane and later a church. I was forced to look at Jane, and that in itself was part of why I believed it, but it has taken a long time and much has happened. I have moved to do as she told in the overcoming dept.
I did look at Branham, I am not sure how I came to him, I found it a cautionary lesson. I could see the end result before I got to the end. But of the others I know nothing. It is I who come with questions.
I am so sorry that I have so little knowledge of these things. But Jane who started all this wrote more than most would care to read. Just try getting though her journals. Much of what I read I did not understand until now.
But I do not want to cause friction among those you have become friends with and I do have a way of doing so, causing friction among some. This is a sin for me, as there are other ways.

[bill_mack]

sharon,

I do not have time to address your questions here, but if you will simply do research on your own at the library and compare Jane Leade's mystical writings to the Word of God I am confident that you can be set free from the Spirit of Mysticism. Jane Leade fused truth with error. It is self-evident that the restoration of a new "Order of Melchisedeck" -- a new apostolic order that was picked up the pioneer founders of the Latter Rain has been carried forth into the 21st century by the Latter Rain's 3rd generation "Third Wave" leaders such as C. Peter Wagner, Bob Weiner, Rice Broocks, etc.

Sharon, Jane Leade's writings are a theological virus that undermines and weakens the soul. My advice to you and the rest of the Latter Rain is to renounce her Mystical Teachings and stay with God's Word.

There is no "Order of Melchisedeck" or apostolic Levitical priesthood in New Testament Christianity. Each believer has been given a personal priesthood through Jesus Christ who mediated a New Covenant by His shed blood on Calvary.

[formermaranathapastor]

Bill- In retrospect you are probably right. I remember Rose weiner doing all sorts of very weird stuff. She was like a banshee or a crazy woman sometimes. She would get this look in her eye and you knew to get the Hell out of there fast and away from her.
Some of her teachings were very mystical, very few could even understand her, and she would spout conclusions that had little to do with the subject.

So you could be right. She is probably a witch.

[bill_mack]

FMP: But, she could also be delivered by comparing the covert doctrines she immersed herself with with the Bible. According to many eyewitness testimonies such as the one you described as well as the fact that Rose Weiner had a large role in interfacing with Bill Britton and other Latter Rain proponents in working their doctrines into the Maranatha Bible Study workbooks, I believe she a primary source for much of the error.

Q1: But then, how would God get through to a sorceress that thought she was practicing "on fire" Christianity??

Q2: How does God get through to the leaders in the Mormon cult that are believing and practicing the same thing? Maybe he doesn't. Maybe he just leaves them in their own false structure until they die off.

One thing is for sure, there are those Christians who are caught in this deception who are getting the truth and escaping, so from that perspective, there is hope.

[jayhernandez]

Thread, anyone,

I've been speaking with a few folks on the yahoo discussion boards, this is where I've been spending most of my time lately (still kind of a weird dynamic), and just got this in my inbox and was wondering if these people have anything to do with EN history at all?

Here is the Yahoo post: "Many people
will recognize the Trinity Foundation as the people who assisted
Dianne Sawyer and PrimeTime Live in the 1991 investigation of Robert
Tilton, W.V. Grant, and Larry Lea. Ole is often quoted in the paper
here in Dallas as an authority on religious matters, though he has no
genuine credentials. My wife and I just thank God that we managed to
break free from that place.

Jay the peacmaker

[jayhernandez]

?????

[jayhernandez]

Nevermind- found it! Not a link betweeen them and EN just more information here at factnet.org. about Trinity Foundation.

Uhh. Where is the exit?