Unlearning the destiny driven mindset

[new_castle]

hey everyone,

since i have left ENPV last year i have bounced around to a few different churches, but recently have found a place to call home at Rock Harbor. i have seen quite a few "ex-patriots" there and i was curious what your thoughts were on this week's message. btw you can find more info on the church at their website www.rockharbor.org (http://www.rockharbor.org) and you can download the message here: http://www.rockharbor.org/resources/messages/mp3s/2006-06-11.mp3

the main focus of the message was how to know God's will for your life. this hit me like a ton of bricks b/c it completely went against the destiny focus of everynation. it seemed like with everynation that you had to have everything lined up and set in stone before you did it. this went for all major decisions such as a job, spouse, school, ministry etc. there was such a heavy focus on looking at the out outcome of whatever that major decision may be that everything that was in front of us was completely blurred out. the pastor mike erre (link above) outlines simply that if we follow God He will guide us.

i remember graduating college while at morningstar (an impossible task for just about everyone at tony's bible study in long beach) and i remember feeling such a heavy pressure of trying to figure out what i wanted to do with my life. tony would tell me to pray and discern God's will which i would then need to run by him for approval. it was so frustrating b/c i would "seek" God but yet find no direct answer on what to do. at this point b/c of the everynation oppression i felt almost as if i was in sin b/c i didn't hear God's will for my life.

after hearing this sermon if feels like a load is lifted off my shoulders and it literally has almost undone 5+ years of bad teaching. can anyone else relate to the health/wealth/prosperity/destiny gospel? i have learned that when it comes down to is that God wants us to trust Him know at this time and not be so worried about tomorrow.

please give me some feedback, b/c honestly this message seemed to really aid in unlearning the garbage i picked up at ENPV.

-new castle

[jbkrems]

I have Todd Proctor's worship album. It is awesome.

[ginger1]

new castle , I listened to it and Its TRUE LOL !!! God guide you step by step and it all depends on the heart. Its like Abraham, God told him to leave but do not know whats next ! He does not exactly know his destiny. He just love God and let Him guide him. No such thing as destiny, its true that EN destiny teaching is freakish !

[bill_mack]

new_castle,

I looked at Rock Harbor's website. My initial impression is that it looks as if the leadership is either part of the Emergent Church movement or is heavily involved with the "Purpose Driven" approach to plugging every last member into some "ministry" responsibility. There is not enough info on their website to clue somebody in on who or what the leadership associates with. It all comes across as a "community church" to me and I would ask the leaders some pointed questions about what they believe and teach on some basics.

That's my opinion based upon looking at their website information.

[40days40years]

What is the emergent church movement? I listened to the sermon and the guy sounded like a gifted campus crusade for christ type of evangelist. Hey it may be true but not exactly a "marines see that hill, take it at 2 o'clock" type of message.

[philiprosenthal]

I wrote a short article on how some leaders in EveryNation twist teaching on destiny:

http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=doctrine&action=display&thread=114 5955311

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

to counter bill's assessment, the website doesn't strike me as an emergent church or PDL. it struck me more as a generic, fellowship community-type church.

new-castle: i think it is great that you are taking your time to discern and ask questions. you are on the right track. ppl leaving EN may have different paths, but it may very well this place will provide you messages for a season in order to "un-do" EN teachings. just continue searching, asking.

though i do want to warn the reader that from the materials that i read, it is very,very easy for a post-cult member to quickly land into another un-healthy religious group. there are so many emotions, insecurities and so forth a person must deal with. so take your time, there is no hurry to land your next church.

personally, i'm not jazzed about the whole "life group/discipleship group" deal... but that is where i am at. i'm like, "enough of connecting and talking about the kingdom...let's do something already".

but new castle: keep and sharpen your skill to evaluate the pastor's message.

remember to always "think".

[matt_hatter]

Bill, (and I am not being sarcastic here, just curious) what is, in your opinion a 'good' church? Most of your posts are critical of almost every church mentioned. Please give me the other side of the coin. Good denominations, etc.

We all need to be somewhere...where would that be in your opinion? I have a number of Charismatic friends at work and leisure. I relate to them as fellow believers.

I may question some of the practices, but a year ago, my chest was sawed open and 4 new arteries were inserted in my heart courtesy of my left leg. A friend I met through my son's baseball, a black charismatic minister, spent hours with me in the hospital. NO ONE will ever convince me that this man is not a man of GOD. Comments?

Matt

[speakword2004]

Yeah, I want know just what would be suitable church as well. I have not been sent one yet.

BTW One Bob's website MCM still exists! See there may be a rapture yet! In Bob's mind MCM is still marching on.

From http://www.youthnow.org/home.php?p=ministries

God moved Bob and Rose to found Maranatha Churches and Campus Ministries, now with locations on 150 campuses in 20 nations. During the last 10 years, they trained 50,000 youth in Russia for ministry and covered all the training expenses for them. God multiplied this ministry, and today many hundreds of thousands of youth have been saved, established in churches and cell groups by the thousands.

[matt_hatter]

Speak, I read this and thought of how similar it was to the Nick Pappis web site that was featured a while back. Exaggerations of a pathological nature, to say the least.

Matt

[speakword2004]

Matt, I am sure that there are many closet green berets that visit here. They must be incensed that BW is still running MCM as we speak.

Fearless men who jump and die . . .

[robert_unknown]

"God moved Bob and Rose to found Maranatha Churches and Campus Ministries, now with locations on 150 campuses in 20 nations. During the last 10 years, they trained 50,000 youth in Russia for ministry and covered all the training expenses for them. God multiplied this ministry, and today many hundreds of thousands of youth have been saved, established in churches and cell groups by the thousands."

LOL...
everything is always "huge" and "big" and "thousands"... and its always at places where no one can proof if its true or not.

how boring this "self-advertising" kinda thing is!

[matt_hatter]

The 100,000 trained to reach 10 souls in a 400 mi radius of DC was the thing that got me. Even a rube wouldn't swallow-follow that one. Where's our math project poster...isn't that 1 million people?? How come this kind of revival around DC wasn't on the front page?? Sheesh!!

Matt 'on the road" Hatter

[matt_hatter]

Yea, Speak, 100 men will test today...oh well, guess I wasn't one of the three to earn the green beret. <sigh> I look better in my Nike visor anyway. And those grapes WERE sour....
Matt

[40days40years]

matt_hatter you don't want to be a snake eater anyway.

[maranatha1984]

Speak:BTW One Bob's website MCM still exists! See there may be a rapture yet! In Bob's mind MCM is still marching on.

84: Blech...arrhg-retch retch cough cough- spew- retch-

[maranatha1984]

From the sicko website:They trained 100,000 youth to win 10 souls each in a 400-mile radius around Washington, DC.

94: Seriously they got to 100,000 youth and trained them...

[ulyankee]

now with locations on 150 campuses in 20 nations.

Does this include or exclude those in Every Nation?

[ulyankee]

"new castle," you mentioned that there were a number of "ex patriots" in this church... I wonder if that is one reason why so many said they had difficulty discerning God's will...

Because if one is in an environment where one is encouraged to hear from the Holy Spirit primarily through one's leaders rather than through prayer, searching Scripture for oneself, and listening for the still small voice of the Spirit speaking to one's own heart, then I imagine it would be really difficult to know what God's will is when there is no longer someone there to tell you what "it" is.

BTW, right after I left EN, I attended an Assembly of God church for a season that I found out later was getting into "jumping in the river" stuff... but I first visited while the pastor taught a series on what spiritual authority is and isn't. The pastor and his wife also took time out to minister to us, even though he knew even before we did that we likely wouldn't stay there. He was right... I didn't end up staying at that church, but I do believe that God led me there for at least a few weeks to hear that series and be ministered to.

(Message edited by ulyankee on June 13, 2006)

[ontheroad]

I've heard so many catch phrases from Christians, some of which I used to use regularly myself:

"Jumping in the river"
"soaking on the carpet"
"ascending and descending"
"climbing to new heights"
"reaching for the new paradigm shift"
"binding"
"loosing"
"linking"
"unlinking"

....is it any wonder many Christians get worn out or worn down?

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi All,
To answer Matt's post # 119, if one is envangelistically speaking, it would be 10 to 17th power !! I think that now however , they should be dividing or more like, 1 million served, 5000 remain, something like that.}

[matt_hatter]

40 said: "matt_hatter you don't want to be a snake eater anyway."
Now you know I'm a country boy-this place is about 20 miles from the family farm-- NO joke:

http://rattlesnakerodeo.com/
Taste like chicken!


copper: "1 million served, 5000 remain"

And those poor 5000 sheep burgers are full of gristle and bone. God help them all, I truly mean that.

Matt 'the diamondback' Hatter

[new_castle]

ulyankee-

yup i think you hit it right on the nose. it was an odd tranisition coming from EN restraints to complete freedom in about a day's time. i basically went from not being able to smoke (tobacco), drink (in moderation of course), make any type of "major" decision (wife, job, school, etc.) to having to make all of those decisions on my own. not to open a whole other can of worms but it really feels awesome to have a beer or glass of wine with dinner and not feel guilty and condemned and have to confess it all to a discipler. at EN they used to always throw around the phrase "freedom in Christ" (in particular at almost every prayer meeting) but that freedom seemed to be walled in by leaders discerning God's will for us. man, praise God for freedom to make our own decisions.

-new_castle

[speakword2004]

Matt

There is a large empty aquarium in my living room with a nice log and a few stones and gravel in it just begging for one of those "long chickens". My wife refuses the idea that I want to replace my former flock of fancy fishies with something cold-blooded and probably tens times more fun.

New Castle,
some of the big leaders in EN smoke cigars and drink in private I am sure. As someone who enjoys a good beer or glass of Port, I do so without being a partaker with company that may stumble as a result.

I was able to use my late teen years as a reference to the dangers of excess and I suppose the older one gets, the more wise and careful etc. Alcoholism is a disease, but sheer weekend drunkedness for kicks week after week is plain stupidity and the body soon lets one know. The older one gets the sooner the message comes through as well.

I can guess that many people who leave the legalistic areas of EN, hang a bit more loose for a while and then adjust their attitudes to a more reasonable maturity as they examine scriptures and other Christian interpretations for themselves. I think it is a natural progression.

I am sure overreaction happens especially more in those churches where youth are over-discipled. Once dis-illusion sets in and they see the hypocrisies I can understand it. The first reaction of the pharisees would be to call it all rebellion and backsliding. I do realise that we should not wilfully sin, and I am not promoting open rebellion to God or sinfulness, but I can relate and understand and have adjusted my life to include some pleasures such as a beer or two.

As someone who believes in eternal surety of salvation, it being damn hard to lose it, I also have Faith that Father will welcome back any prodigal.

Having got that point out the way, I would also like to reiterate my belief that in sectors of EN, historically, the Holiness teaching was slightly out of whack. In the churches where the rules were placed above the need for a good heart attitude, probably caused by authoritarianism and over discipleship, the result has been a legalism that can only foster relgiosity or abandonment of the church by young and impressiuonable people who have not been taught any better.

I would encourage any young member of EN to read the scriptures and compare their church to the model presented by Jesus and his disciples.

[matt_hatter]

Speak, take a click or two over to the EN blog regarding those cold blooded varmits.

Matt

[jesusisawesome]

My 2 cents, I think human nature always tries to complicate what is really simple. We're to not be led astray from the simplicity that is in Christ. I think our main responsibility is to love God will all of our hearts, and love whoever happens to be next to us at that moment, at any given time. By practicing this, loving God and loving our neighbor, we are walking in the light. We trust God moment by moment, in the situations that come our way, and He guides us. Man makes his plans, but the Lord orders his steps.

[speakword2004]

Dear all

Just a warning to the fishies: Mr Krems has decided to exercise his bait and switch tactics over at the Joyce Meyer section.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21916.html?1150761038

Gotcha!

[matt_hatter]

Gee, think he'll pass the bar first time with that response?

Don't forget this one: "I know you are, but what am I?"

How about: "Nanny nanny boo boo..."

Another Counselor at Law clogging the American Judicial system with one line zingers!

"Who cares?"

Matt

[jbkrems]

Hello folks:

I wrote "Who cares?" because that person was complaining about Joyce Meyer's personal affairs, and there is NO Biblical basis for that. If a Christian leader has extravagant home(s) or cars, then what different does that make? Nothing in the Bible prohibits Joyce Meyer from owning that kind of stuff. That is why I wrote, "Who cares."

Matt: What I write here has nothing to do with the Bar Exam.

[j2theperson]

***What I write here has nothing to do with the Bar Exam.***

Who cares?

[matt_hatter]

J2, best zinger of the month, BAR none!!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

Matt

[ontheroad]

BAR none....
BARf http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[matt_hatter]

The boy does provide some comic relief now doesn't he???http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[jbkrems]

Matt (and company):

Shut up; this is getting disrespectful.

[matt_hatter]

You forgot to say "I bind you in the name of Jesus." And just who are you to think you deserve respect? This is the post I have been waiting for, Little Krems with all his insight and 'respect', is reduced to ordering a bunch of old combat vets to shut up. Like I said, great comic relief!!! I am so hurt, I must call my pastor.

[matt_hatter]

Durn, John, I did it again. Got some mineral spirits?

[j2theperson]

***I am so hurt, I must call my pastor.***

Sadly, your pastor is unavailable. He's tooling around in that cadillac God gave him, witnessing to people via the Psalm on his vanity licence plate.

[jbkrems]

Matt:

I don't have to say that --- I don't bind people.

Everyone in these posts (on the Discussion Board) deserves respect. You do, as do I.

[matt_hatter]

Your patronizing tone is only exceeded by your own self righteousness. I have laughed more at your posts than any others, because I see myself 20 years ago. The sad thing is, YOU don't see it. It would be interesting if you printed all your posts, put them in a time capsule for 20 years, and then pulled them out. You would be rolling on the floor!!!

As far as respect for the board, I am doing exactly what the board is for: unfettered, free speech...that even allows a neophyte to order others to 'shut up'.

John...I need the extra large can.....

Matt

[jbkrems]

Matt: How can you judge tone on the Boards? Really, you cannot judge tone here. Just words.

[john_r_jones]

Hi kids, I'm jockin' via ISDN on a radio station this afternoon and I breezed in to see y'all got a real asphalt jungle goin' here. My song's just about up-Donovan Atlantis and I gotta go-it's the most fun you can have and not loose brain cells. Keep the faith chillins!
John

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi John, I was thinking about'Garden Party ' song on the air waves. I liked , the Proverb of the day

Pro 17:12 Let a man meet a bear robbed of her cubs,
Rather than a fool in his folly}

[matt_hatter]

How about a little Magic Bus by the Who? Ok, I'm back to 'normal' with the help of a few snorts of Pinot Noir. A little dust up, tar, and vino is good for the body and soul.

[jesusisawesome]

Just hopped over from the other chat. Don't feel so bad, Matt. You could be over there picturing Miltie in spandex, doing the ballerina dance thing . . . http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[matt_hatter]

JIA, I have done my best to get you a reservation to the tree house and the zip line, but your constant giggling and merry making regarding Miltie Barishnikov may cause an early cancellation. And the fresh corn is just getting ripe for his still.

[j2theperson]

***Don't feel so bad, Matt. You could be over there picturing Miltie in spandex, doing the ballerina dance thing . . . ***

Yikes, I just watched The Seven Faces of Dr. Lao (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057812/). I didn't think I would ever come across anything freakier than Tony Randall frolicking around as the Greek Goat God of Sex, but now I come here and am immediately proved wrong. You people blow my mind. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[matt_hatter]

J2 and JIA, y'all are killin' me!! (would that be considered a negative confession??) Tony Randall...hep us Lord....http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif

[miltietoast]

Spandex here: after hours of practice and choreography(Eat your heart out Danny Kaye) I am actually quite good although I have had to trade in my spandex two two for a three three(Rolling Rock disease). I still sense Mike Godwin is among us.

[jesusisawesome]

Kudos to Spandex! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

If we come visit the tree house, will you perform for us?

[speakword2004]

Seven Faces of Lao! Watched that 2 x times in as many years. TR was a great actor, but what a strange story.

This one has been in my head for a few days. Anyone recognise the dialogue? A really cool opening scene in it as well:

He was smiling... That's right. You know, that, that Luke smile of his. He had it on his face right to the very end. Hell, if they didn't know it 'fore, they could tell right then that they weren't a-gonna beat him. That old Luke smile. Oh, Luke. He was some boy. Cool Hand Luke. Hell, he's a natural-born world-shaker.

[matt_hatter]

I can eat 50 eggs

[speakword2004]

I feel sick. Sure remember the egg scene.Coincidence but watching a Conan reru n tonight there was an itterview with Jack Klugman about his great friendship with Tony Randall.
Matt, btw we ended up visiting a reptile park this weekend. When I found a tank labelled "Diamondback" I became somewhat interested but the damn snake was hiding under a log and could not be seen.