Son of a Bunnytrail

[john_r_jones]

Well,
here we are... please enjoy yourselves in our emporium for fertile imaginations!
John

[matt_hatter]

Alright John! Can we use the fertile imaginations in the garden for compost? Down home we called 'em bunny pellets! Matt

[40days40years]

In the old days the magicians liked to use bunnies for their tricks and they would hide them cloaked on their persons. They could deal with the pellets it was the liquid they got tired of. That is why today they like to use doves.

[matt_hatter]

40, so far we're staying on topic. We need John to pull a bunny out of his hat and give us a 'devotional' before this thing gets out of hand.

BTW, John did you get my reply?

Matt

[jayhernandez]

I've got a trick for you. Poof.

[jayhernandez]

WAZAM! OK I'm back! =)

[john_r_jones]

Thanks for the "How hot is it" jokes. I was sitting here trying to come to some place of inspiration and also toying with a notion which I'd like to pursue with you. I'd like to hear what you think of some of things I've said here. Your likes, dislikes, inspirations or disgusts, what gives you a reason to ponder over any of this for a moment. Just a quick note or a tome I'd appreciate your response for a short time.
John

[john_r_jones]

Some astronomers estimate that there may be as many galaxies as there are grains of sand on the earth. That's mind boggling, and in the average galaxy there again are an equivalent number of stars as are the grains of sand on the earth. Yet the night sky is dark, a few pinholes of light appear to the naked eye. Were you to hold out a dime at arms length you'd block out a billion stars?

Fredrich Buechner writes of darkness in his latest book and I was thinking about that. We're all in essence afraid of the dark given the right circumstances. The unknown, unseen, shadows that stretch across the nightscape and play in the wind create a dance macabre in our imaginations. Of course there are all kinds of darkness, spiritual, emotional, mental, relational, understanding, I'm sure a list could go for some time if given to specifics and somewhere the hairs would come up on our necks.

We bump and stumble our way through varying forms and shades of darkness daily. Somehow we've learned to cope with darkness, to accept it, to negotiate our way through to the objective. Of course there's the light, we're afraid of that too. Light illumines exposes, uncovers, and reveals all. There are no areas of gray in light except in a shadow, the beam itself is unrelenting whether from a candle or a searchlight. Though obviously the candle glows and warms the searchlight blasts light and bathes us in an eerie cast. I remember being hired once to shoot downtown Los Angeles one evening illuminated by a parking lot filled with searchlights for a film studio. The carbons hummed in the lamps as generators grumbled and the electricians kept the arcs struck to give the cityscape an odd blast of sweeping beams of light in a summer night's sky. I imagine those beams sweeping through our lives, our existence exposed, our secrets projected for all to see, our successes would seem odd in this light as well for they would be measured against our failures even if unconsciously.

Our church sanctuary has candles that glow; in the season of Advent the different candles for each week are lit and a short reading accompanies this each week leading to Christmas. It speaks of the light of the world who at His coming "on a Midnight Clear..." gave us illumination, shepherds surrounded by the glow of an angelic light were told not to fear this light. Jesus himself told us to ..."come unto him all you who are weary and burdened", come rest in the gentle glow of His being, His love.

I think the Father tippy-toes around the wings of the stage of His creation, looking through the curtains here and there as scenery and props are moved about and actors play out their roles to portray the Creator. Yet he hides, His glory revealed in small doses, glimpses of His presence give a sense of Him, Jesus said if you've seen me you've seen the Father. Yet the Father didn't package Himself in a very impressive way a matchstick really in a storm that flickered and then blew out. Why would God play hide and seek, why clothe himself in obscurity and let darkness exist at all? Some have said that the vastness of the universe exists at all because God chose to create by withdrawing Himself to make room for us to be. Possibly so, it seems as reasonable as anything I can come up with, so why withdraw, why create at all? Why in creating, create trouble for Himself, why allow sin to exist, why the play of darkness and light of shadow, of substance that is in hope, faith that is in the unseen?

More to come...

[john_r_jones]

Meanwhile back at the ranch...
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the glory of kings to search it out. When I heard that scripture many years ago a sense of order came, some things began to fall into place. I imagined a scene like this:

God the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit were having coffee one morning and on the table was a blueprint, plans scattered all over and a whole catalogue of working drawings were at hand. Quite a stir, Lucifer strolls by and asks "What's up?” Well, creation the Father replies, humans and birds and squirrels and stars and planets...my dream. Lucifer harrumphs and stalks off "The notion of perfection being worshipped by imperfection, what a waste!" And so the die is cast heaven quivers with insurrection and a third of the angels rebel and fall away.

In the meantime creation happens and man is given breath-he's the first creature to breath not only respire as all the other animals do but breathe in the life of God. They become friends, Adam is given a mate and has a choice to make ultimately creation or God, and he chooses creation as do we all. God chooses to reveal himself through His creation, and through His Holy Spirit and after a time His Son, Jesus. Through this advent of His kingdom we have recourse with the Father to receive forgiveness, and healing. We begin to see the redemptive powers of the Father worked out in our daily lives. He gives us the choice again once lost through Adam, to choose Him. To live in His creation but not worship it which is the sin in my mind of Lucifer, he valued his own creation over that of the uncreated God.

Through the dappled light of an afternoon of life we see through a mirror darkly, in the twilight of evening we catch a glimpse of His shadow passing like Moses did. His love is so immense that He won't risk damaging us by the weight of His glory revealed, he speaks to us in whispers like a breeze, sometimes a wind, I think most of the time in silence He is. He invites us to move beyond knowledge about Him, debates, and diatribes to come and know Him. Those who do know Him communicate their experience eloquently in a presence not their own.

I laugh at the word eloquence for truthfully I can barely mouth a prayer of thanks and not screw it up somehow. I type run-on sentences, make the inventors of spell-checker technology secure in their work and sit in bewilderment at what any of this means. There is a glow however, not from the computer screen that gives me hope and rest that He is near. Sometimes, as Brennan Manning writes of bright darkness that surrounds, I feel his absence. Yet that felt absence is in truth a calling to move nearer, to find Him still, in a new place, in a new way.
John

[annelewis]

Ok, I have bunny bait. As mentioned elsewhere, I used to coordinate the benevolence ministry for our church. I stepped away from this position last August and yet, I still get the occasional call from someone I gave assistance to. The other night at 3:30AM I got a call from a gal whom I haven't seen nor heard from since last fall. "Anne," she said "It's Ranelle. Can you help us?"

"Ranelle, it's 3:30 in the morning. No, I'm sorry, I can't." She said Ok and then hung up.

I have had this interior dialog going on for the past few days. Part of me thinks I should have given her the chance to explain, to hear her out, to have another chance to connect with her. Part of me thinks that even that is too much; that I would have just opened myself up to getting my rescue switch tripped; that all I would have done is perpetuated the idea that it's ok to live a life dictated by other people's crisis and chaos. I would have lost time and energy that could have been directed towards other areas of my life without any correlated benefit in Ranelle's life.

I wish I would have been awake enough to say "Ranelle, I can help you but not the way you want. I know a way for you to live that isn't dictated by violence, by addiction, by fear, by feelings of worthlessness BUT you have to be willing to leave the life you know behind."

Some days I wish I were still the idealistic person who believed that if I helped someone,, they would build on that for a better life. I wish I didn't believe that alcohol or drugs were somehow behind this 3:30 call. I wish I didn't have the experiences that showed me that a lot of people who ask for help are so destroyed emotionally and psychologically that they destroy everything in their path. I wish I didn't feel I had to protect myself from the poor as much as I do.

THoughts? (please be kind - I'm really fragile in this area.)

[john_r_jones]

Anne,
first thank God for your tenderheartedness. Secondly if your planning on opening a rehab center at home then yes calls at O dark thirty are a part of setting up shop. Otherwise desperation is the name of the game for problems and they don't keep business hours. That's why we have ER's, shelters, and private charities to operate on a twenty-four hour basis. One thought I have is to familiarize yourself with such an organization and ask if you can refer folks to them for the three AM-ers. I have a friend whose counselling ministry had these kinds of hours. We took turns catching the late night or desperate calls. But it was with a great deal of support, the cops knew of us, the hospitals and so forth so that in dire emergencies we could get back-up (like pulling a loaded pistol out of someone's mouth in the office parking lot at two AM). As you probably know professionals conduct counter transferrance session with each other for just such reasons to remain sane themselves. I think your discretion will keep you available to help others when your able to, and to send them for assistance when you can't.
John

[speakword2004]

I can identify partially.

We have a hobo who lives in the street nearby. He is dying and wanted to go home to his family to die. My wife has paid for his bus trip countless times. He is sincere, but so dysfunctional. After finally reaching a point where we were certain that he now was going to get on that bus, he was mugged and even his pants stolen from him, metres from the bus!! My wife keeps on helping as by increments at least something is happening. I would have not gotten that far with him!

Another hobo that reaches my gate on the coldest nights always has the same fabricated story. His wife has breast cancer, they live down by the river and he needs exactly R27-50 to buy milkpowder for the hungry baby. His baby must be the only 5 year old that gets babymilk I told him the last time. He hasn't been back for 4 months. Now do I judge him as a liar and refuse to help him. Yes, I did. My judgement call. Why he is like that? I can't judge nor blame him. Niether can I fix him.

Another 78 year old hobo in a wheelchair sleeps in my factory carport every night. Another hard case. Yes, life, his personal circumstances etc. may have bought him here - I help too little. Guilt? Or should we help as much as we can and then entrust to God?

I agree that there is a right time and place and that sometimes you get people that suck you dry. You can counsel using the most advanced Christian ideas and techniques and get nowhere. Just go around in circles back to the same old junk. Why? I don't know. Sometimes we just have to get past "guilt" which is even more natural to women, and entrust people into His hands. This may mean telling them you can't help anymore.

I find marriage issues can be the same. The same old arguements, the same old tactics, the same silly posturing . . . eventually we get to see through it all, speak the truth and expect each other to just grow up. Yes, yes, easier said than done.

Sometimes people who need help intrude on my selfishness and test my "Christianity" bigtime. I guess you have to <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> each situation and maybe your judgement call for that phone call was right, spot on or dead wrong. You know more about the case. I for one may very well have told the person to shove off, said a prayer and turned over back to sleep.

The 2AM call to post bail, the hobo at the gate on a cold Sunday night, the couple having a domestic on the street outside my window, my neighbour getting mugged within earshot, children screaming from a locked room from a small abode across the road and many more manic episodes have all tested my kindness as well as well as my patience with people this past year. I wish I could say I passed all with flying colours, but at least I am open to God teaching me how to be. I am sure you feel the same. Just tired and weary sometimes.

A lot of people are afraid to ask for help in case they get destroyed emotionally and pyschologically, Anne. I have learnt that it is the little kindnesses and the sincerity that we show people that help the most. But it is sure hard with the difficult cases.

His People, Johannesburg was onbe such difficult case. Eventually, I had to cut the line.

[speakword2004]

My wife is helping someone who decided he needed to phone her at 10 last night to vent that he got only one piece off meat in his dinner!

Jim Morrison of The Doors sang:"people are strange when your'e a stranger". I disagree. People are just strange!

[annelewis]

Speak, ain't that the truth. I heard something recently that keeps popping up in my mind. If you feel you deserve better, you will tend to act as if the world owes you something.

I think about that when it comes to working with the poor as well as participating in this board.

But getting back to the poverty question:
My oft cited expert on poverty Ruby Payne (http://www.ahaprocess.com) has stated that the sociological characteristics of poverty are the same across cultures and that poverty really is a contextual phenomena. Even though we in developed nations can rightly point out that a poor person here lives far better than a middle class person in other places of the world, that does not mitigate the impact of poverty. If yer poor, yer poor.

I've often found it really interesting that Jesus said he was anointed to preach the gospel to the poor. In contemporary circles, if someone is referred to as anointed it means they are rousing and stirring or at the very least evoking a strong response (ideally repentance) in the listener. I don't know that this is entirely incorrect as Peter's first sermon in Acts pretty much fills this description. But anointing is not skill or talent. I have come to the conclusion that anointing - the presence of the Holy Spirit - is the only thing that will get through to people in poverty.

I do remember one instance with a girl whose life was just a string of wreckage. It was after service and a group of women were circled around, praying for her. During the prayer time, she kept feeling the top of her head. She told us later that she kept feeling a large hand on her head but there was nothing there. I told her it was probably God's hand. She looked absolutely stricken which I thought was an odd response but didn't really think much of it until later.

But later on, when she returned to her old ways of crash and burn, I wondered if in some small place in her heart on that day she knew she wasn't serious about following God. Therefore a sign that He was real and did care about her was just a little too scary for her. It's one thing to dupe nice Christians - it's another to try and fool God. Was her expression because a small sign from God meant to her that she was busted?

I don't know. I can't even prove empirically that what she felt wasn't some misfiring of her cranial nerves.

Anyway, I have been overthinking this again. Thanks for bearing with me.

[speakword2004]

Sure. It is one of those ones that we can never really understand.

This one is for all my fellow posters here at the Factnet hospital church:

Soggy Pretzels
Neil Diamond

You were cryin' in your pretzels when I met you
You were washing
All the salt away from the dough
You were cryin' in your pretzels
And I'll never forget you
But, baby, just why, I'll ever know

Cryin' in your pretzels
Cryin' in your beer
Cryin' on the table
That's where I found you dear

[Spoken:]
Yes, my sweet I came into that bar
It was in Mississippi
There you were, sitting in the corner
Crying in your pretzels
You'd already sogged up
A whole plate of potato chips
But the management didn't mind
Because you were a regular customer

And I saw you sittin' there and I said
"That person needs a friend,
And I'm gonna be a friend
Ain't nobody deserves to cry in his pretzels
All night and wash away the salt."
So I kinda sided up to you and I said,
"What can I do for you? How can I help you?
What can I do to ease the pain?"

Well, you were cryin' in your pretzels
Oh, you were cryin' in your beer
Yes, that was the night I meet you
And I'll always hold you near


I don't know why, but I bought myself s Neil Diamond album last week. Such fun

[john_r_jones]

The notion of obscurity, of integration into the whole of becoming a part of something larger than you to find meaning has its summation in the current slogan "It's not about you." Though it sounds terribly "Christian" I find it unworkable as Christian thought in the sense that the gospels reflect the identity of the individuals that Jesus met and interacted with. Otherwise the Gospel message might read something like: "Out of A town called Nazareth Jesus the Messiah came and ministered to many, some of whom became His followers. From His travels He journeyed throughout the countryside and touched many hearts. Finally though, controversy surrounding His claims of Messiahship was His undoing and He was falsely accused of heresy and executed unjustly. He arose from death and reassumed His heavenly place of authority from where He reigns today sovereign of His people the world over."

Scripture records in painful detail Jesus' interaction with folks, sinners, of all sorts, heretics and outcasts. Evident in His disdain for religionists, for those who impersonalize God into a profession of intermediaries and those who consume their services, was a reality of personal love, kinship, and regard. Yet it seems today the cottage industry of the same has outgrown its cottage, and it is certainly an industry. Were Jesus here, as Brian McLaren writes, He might not associate Himself with being Christian.
John

[john_r_jones]

I wanted to make a note that I am also posting on everynation proboards with different thoughts. Lettuce here, carrots there sort of thing.
John

[lc_20]

Do you have a link?

[john_r_jones]

http://everynation.proboards102.com/ Here is the proboards link you asked for.
Thanks,
John

[john_r_jones]

The idea I'm seeing germinate in my innards these days is one of creativity, and healing. One of the great dangers for some who espouse as I do the notion of strength perfected in weakness is swimming around in a dysfunctional soup. That there are those who avoid healing and wholeness under the mistaken impression or misnomer that it constitutes suffering. Or that incompetence, poor planning, or confusion about scriptural faith is a conduit to spirituality.

One example of that might be ministry to the poor. Do we ourselves become poverty stricken in order to engage in the plight of those who are unfortunate? Do we clothe ourselves in rags and bathe once a week or so? No in our compassion we reach out in a nonjudgmental fashion and give sustenance out of our blessing. Joseph desired freedom from his imprisonment, his gratitude for that freedom extended to his family and forgiveness, and blessing for an entire nation. That nation was at that present time Egypt and later Israel was carried on in that heritage, even through centuries of oppression. Like Joseph Israel was eventually freed to become a storehouse of Godly providence.

The issue in my mind is the idolatry they engaged in while being blessed, that is indeed the matter at hand today. The competence in blessing was well illustrated in Jesus' ministry, because His heart was turned to the serving He did so well. I think of the passage in Luke 4 where Jesus spoke in His hometown, to folks He'd grown up with. His family hadn't pimped Him in the current vernacular; they'd led a quiet life with a Messiah under roof. When Jesus emerged in His earthly ministry He had class in my mind from His earthly parents, they had raised Him well. Because of this when He spoke in His town they were angered at His supposed audacity to assume He was the embodiment of that scripture. He wasn't flashy enough, He wasn't regal in His bearing, yet in who He was He was genuine. In that moment of conflict He was comfortable as Jesus of Nazareth; He'd nothing to prove to the home town. In effect He didn't rent a Ferrari to go to His class reunion, He walked in integrity.

We are called to be made whole, in fact in the New Testament the etymology of the word "saved" in many places means be made whole. When we are whole we have integrity of being, we aren't fractured, hemorrhaging, we don't have a pretense of Christianity. We are free to reach out to others in need, not fearing for our reputations, not feeling the need to be magnanimous. We allow those we bless to forgive us the bread we give them, to realize the healing power of acceptance to those we extend it to.

Jesus walked through the crowd and on about His business, he didn't turn and curse them, he didn't do anything except go on to the next place where He might serve. If the church realized that we in our wholeness can be accepting, yet not compromising, understanding and insightful without being sentimental and loving without being judgmental. Jesus first revealed Himself as Messiah to an adulterer; she in turn was the first evangelist. Jesus chose to seek the poor and outcast not because the incompetence of his public relations department, but because they received Him. In other places we're told Jesus heals many, and yet He is unchanged by the popularity again integrity, wholeness.

Continued...

[john_r_jones]

We Christians who are grafted in none the less carry in us the seed of Abraham in Jesus. We are called as he was to be a blessing; we employ the gifts, the sensitivity, the skills we have to serve, to reach-out, and to extend mercy and compassion to a dying world. When we hear those words one day "Well done my good and faithful servant" it will be in the company of Jesus and in the family of man.

Finally, to me Paul is the Steven Hawking of theology; great kindness in the body of a superior intellect. Yet Paul said he gloried not in his prowess but in Jesus Christ. Obvious to me is the fact that there are those of keen intellect who post and more than likely read as well. My hope is that you are enabled through His touch to be insightful, and whole. There are enormous frontiers of need in a range of fields that lack your touch, your gift, the secret that has been concealed within you to be revealed for God's glory. Let your lamp illumine and your city shine with that unique blend that has the Master's signature of brilliant compassion.
John

[jayhernandez]

John,

I think of the many things that Christ, Paul, David, Peter and the others, including you and wonder of the growth that isn't merely from hardknocks but a desire for God.

Jay the peacemaker

I post at odd times so you'll find my post lengthy at times. I wish I could get on during the busy hours to have ongoing dialoge but since I don't, I write in statments- hardly ever asking questions.

[john_r_jones]

Jay,
The seldom used word (except for Thanksgiving flannel graphs) pilgrim is what I would term many who hang out here either posting or reading. We read of the once in a lifetime pilgrimage to the Hajj for Muslims, the trek to Vatican City for a glimpse of the Holy See, or some historical figures who gave us a reason to overeat and bet on sports.

The Jonathan Edwards classic Pilgrim's Progress was used in Maranatha for years as an outreach tool in a filmed portrayal of his story of an odyssey through life. Pilgrims bring to mind those focused, vulnerable, seeking, yet uncertain of the outcome of their quest. Some of the bravado of our neighbors indicates to me just that sense of wonder articulated as argument for or against something. We're testing what we've been told and led to believe for ourselves. It's something to read scripture or a book or listen to a sermon, quite another to see words spilling onto a page or screen elucidating your thoughts.

I respect pilgrims whether I agree with all they say or not isn't of such importance as the recognition of the journey they are on. Some-many in the church have settled down to a comfortable existence and have the reading lamp on the chair side table to give them comfort while they doze. Others carry a flashlight, a candle, a match, or feel around in the dark bumping into things questing for more. As well they are possibly not realizing that suffering is found in uncertainty and self doubt as much as in any martyrdom.

As we resist the temptation to seize power from the world around us and instead receive power from the Father, we become a wellspring and not a sewer. Giving, not taking, having substance that may be found in our enfeebled attempts to believe, though our belief isn't a singular intellectual enterprise it isn't ignorant either, it's trusting. Paul told his audience he bore in his body the marks of the Lord Jesus, not terribly popular these days yet true for those who follow.
John

(Message edited by john r. jones on May 31, 2006)

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi John, thank you for the kind post, and thoughtful; inspiring , causing one to think. We we are looking for a kingdom, not of this earth, not built with hands , so to speak. His real Kingdom to come, as we dwell in Him, it is birthed in us. ( as I recall an earlier post of yours.) thanks again.}

[j2theperson]

***The Jonathan Edwards classic Pilgrim's Progress***

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif Bunyan...John Bunyan.

[john_r_jones]

Oh Bunyan, Bunyan where art thou?
Well thanks for the ombudsman work J2.
John

[40days40years]

Look at this bunny trail (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060602/wl_sthasia_afp/afplifestyleindiasocietysnakemarriageoffbeat_06060 2114353)

[bill_mack]

Great analogy to MCM/ENC congregants and "apostles".

[john_r_jones]

Hi,
I've had a few days off from here getting to share the Good News in person with old friends. I rounded-up some dear friends who were in Maranatha and we went to hear Brennan Manning this past weekend. They also were gracious enough to let me speak in their congregation this past Sunday morning. I enjoyed the great pleasure of articulating some of the things I post here in their place of worship. I can't tell you what a blessing it was to see the message of grace resonate in their hearts. Brennan Manning would give any Maranatha, E/N preacher a run for their money at 71 years of age. It's phenominal to see someone enthusiastic about their faith and the Father's grace, I was inspired to say the least. 84, the folks you wrote about in the Praise band were some of my closest friends back then. Of late some of us have been getting back together and I've been blessed and priveledged to see the Father's heart in their work and ministry at present.
John

Please forgive me the poor structure and redundancy of words, I've been sleep deprived for five days because we've had so much to talk about-all good.

[matt_hatter]

John, good to have you back. Been missing your words of wisdom. There are a lot of 'reunions' going on in here. Matt

[john_r_jones]

Well,
reality is here today, the car, the house, the grass... Mary visits Elizabeth we're told in Luke 1:39-45 and the ensuing phenom is something of interest today, for me at least. When they met they experienced a quickening in their womb. Elizabeth was filled with the Spirit and exclaimed in a loud voice "Blessed are you among women..." The remainder of this chapter is the resultant songs of worship for the births of Jesus and John along with the anecdote of John's birth. Two things are my focus today:

Waiting patiently for God is hard until we realize God waits for things as well. He's waited for example for eons for your birth; it gives me meaning for each day when I think about it. The birth of these two young fellows was unremarkable save Jesus' virgin birth and the wise men that came to see Him at birth. We see things born sometimes and pay them little heed and yet they become something of import over time as they mature. The hyperbole of our modern Christian experience may rob us the enjoyment of the simple things of life. Some things that become something of substance sometimes for someone else because we neglect them and they wind up in foster care of someone else because we've orphaned them.

Secondly, Mary and Elizabeth encouraged each other and that which was gestating in them responded in a positive fashion to their friendship and mutual encouragement. Ever get an idea and the legitimacy of it seems questionable? Now I'm not talking about goofy evangelize little green men on the moon questionable, but we're stretched. We need to realize that we have the capacity to encourage other and see things become a reality through our relationships. All things born happen through relationships, prenatal care for our dreams is a legitimate enterprise. I'm not a confessor, bathroom mirror scripture metaphysicist; I am one who trusts God to bring things to pass in my life. I believe God gives us dreams and ideas and hopes and they have a gestation period, a waiting, a trusting, a relationship not only with others but with the Father.

To encourage others who are weak and feeble with their dreams is like nurturing Mary a young woman carrying a child of promise of questionable heritage. Had Joseph stoned Mary as tradition and legalism required he would have also killed the infant she carried-Jesus. In our traditions, arrogance, doubt, or whatever else we might engage in as what I call spiritual genocide do we not see that we kill off things which are God breathed in the doing?

John

(Message edited by john r. jones on June 06, 2006)

[matt_hatter]

John said: "I am one who trusts God to bring things to pass in my life. I believe God gives us dreams and ideas and hopes and they have a gestation period, a waiting, a trusting, a relationship not only with others but with the Father."

Thank you John. I think I'll hide on the bunny trail. It has taken a whole can of mineral spirits to get the tar off of me.

I have had a real epiphany about the Emmaus Road. It has to do with this whole idea of gestation. Firstly, He approached US on the road. Reading Luke 24, the encounter starts casually and ends up with the pilgrims' hearts burning within them. It has occured to me that we are sometimes (and sadly) walking in front or laggig far behind our Lord. Sometimes we enjoy the casual encounter of a good friend, and often our hearts burn within us. But we are always on the road. The journey is in progress, and He is the one who met us on the road and got us started!

Matt

[john_r_jones]

Good O Matt,
by the way ya missed a spot there.
John

[40days40years]

Yeah well john the factnet genie did not miss a spot. Here is another son of a bunny trail, Someone cleaned up my messy factnet room and rabbit hutch. I kind of liked the old disorder and then the factnet Mr. Clean blows in here and arranges all the boxes and cleans out the garage. I guess it had to be done but I had a system of disorder going on here.

[j2theperson]

Yeah, what's up with the cleanup? I checked out some of the larger FACTnet discussions about other cultic groups, but none of them seem to have been [re]organized. I don't mind the new order, but still I must ask: why just us?

[jayhernandez]

I'm confused. I don't like the change. I usually can't get in open discussion here so when I come back I know where I left off. I tried finding where I left off but it took too much time. I guess it'll find it's way back anayway.
==================
Anyway I think I'm done for a while. It's been great and you guys keep it up. I'll check in from time to time and who knows, maybe I'll get in conversation if there is something I can add. I guess JBkrems kind of wore me out. He didn't shake my faith in anything but if anything reaffirmed a lot of what I knew about this EN church. It sure was hard seeing how we sheep are truely sheep-and it was kind of sad to see how determined we can be about speaking our conviction- and sometimes prematurely. I once heard that convictions hold us- we don't hold them. You know, I pretty much stopped responding directly to his posts but only because I knew it was a preoccupation to what I really wanted to do here. There is only some much a person can say and you have to leave it to God. When I left EN I pulled out of the drive in Tampa and shook the dust of my feet-to come here is not to have looked back but to look forward. Dealing with jb was like looking back. Not harm intended jb if you read this. I just wish you the best of what God has to offer you and it's more then what you preach here. There is a ground to put you're feet on. Out of the clouds and onto the very ground we'll be buried in, unless the good Lord come back for us. Endure my friends. Endure.

Jay the peacemaker

[speakword2004]

J2 The moderator mentioned a proposed cleanup a couple of months ago, but this sure is a messy cleanup. It is akin to a chimpanzee being asked to fold clean laundry and put it back in a cupboard. It can do the job somewhat, but does not really know where everything should fit or go. The problem is that finding information about EN for a visitor or new person is going to become increasingly difficult the bigger this site becomes. I propose that Factnet should be allowed to keep its conversational flow and that reference articles or quoted articles be sorted out on another site or another place.

Before we circle the wagons, we need to realise that God is pointing more and more people to places like this to learn the truth and also to share information. We need to be sensitive to that and to be sensitive to minister towards each other. Factnet was a more comfortbale place 2 years ago and even 1 year ago, but it has grown considerably. The EN/MCM section of FACTNET has grwon exponentially in comparison to other sectiosn which shows that something is happening. Let us all try and undertsnad it before reclaiming our comfort zones.

[matt_hatter]

Speak said: "Let us all try and undertsand it before reclaiming our comfort zones."

Change is good! A few extra mouse clicks does my old guitar playing finger good. John, I can't get the tar off my left front tooth. But I am in Alabama, so I just look normal. It is a beautiful day on the road this morning! It is ok to take a bunny trail occasionally, however!
Matt

[speakword2004]

Ye-haaaahhhh! Bang, bang, bang! Yeahhhh-ahhhh! Go horsey, go.

Matt sings a song to John:

"Oh, Susannah"

Stephen Foster

Well I come from Alabama with my banjo on my knee
And I'm bound for Louisiana, my own true love for to see
It did rain all night the day I left
The weather was bone dry
The sun was so hot I froze myself
Suzanne, don't you go on and cry

I said, Oh, Suzannah
Now, don't you cry for me
As I come from Alabama with this banjo on my knee

Well I had myself a dream the other night
When everything was still
I dreamed that I saw my girl Suzanne
She was coming around the hill
Now, the buckwheat cake was in her mouth
A tear was in her eye
I said, that I come from Dixie land
Suzanne, don't you break down and cry

I said, Oh, Suzannah
Now, don't you cry for me
'Cause I come from Alabama with my banjo on my knee

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amaj7 Bm7 C#m7 F#m7 A F#m7 Bm7
Well I come from Alabama with a banjo on my knee
Amaj7 Bm7 C#m7 F#m7 Bm7 Bm7/E A9
And I'm bound for Louisiana, my own true love for to see
Amaj7 Bm7 Cmaj7 F#m7
It did rain all night the day I left
A F#m7 Bm7
The weather was bone dry
Amaj7 Bm7 C#m7 F#m7
The sun was so hot I froze myself
Bm7 Bm7/E A9
Suzanne don't you break down and cry
Dmaj7 Bm7 Bm7/E
I said Oh Suzanna ------
A F#m7 Bm7
Now don't you cry for me
Amaj7 Bm7 C#m7 Bm7 Bm7/E A9
As I come from Alabama with a banjo on my knee

Amaj7 Bm7 C#m7 F#m7
Well I had myself a dream the other night
A F#m7 Bm7
When everything was still
Amaj7 Bm7 C#m7 F#m7
I dreamed that I saw my girl Suzanne
Bm7 Bm7/E A9
She was coming around the hill
Amaj7 Bm7 C#m7 F#m7
The buckwheat cake was in her mouth
A F#m7 Bm7
A tear was in her eye
Amaj7 Bm7 C#m7 F#m7
I said that I come from Dixie land
Bm7 Bm7/E A9
Suzanne don't you break down and cry
Dmaj7 Bm7 Bm7/E
I said Oh Suzanna ------
A F#m7 Bm7
Now don't you cry for me
Amaj7 Bm7 C#m7 Bm7 Bm7/E A9
As I come from Alabama with a banjo on my knee

[matt_hatter]

You know, being the big time worship leader I was, (pt 26), I could have brought 'em to the throne with that one.. Darn. Where is that "Back to the Future" Delorean when you need it???

Matt

[speakword2004]

I can see King Cotton Bob doing the Weiner Square Dance to that one, Matt. Being in the heart of Dixie would fit in with the old plantation master theory as well. See, there is an Alabama conspiracy after all.

[speakword2004]

"The origin of the name Alabama is thought to come from a combination of two Choctaw words; Alba and Amo. In Choctaw, "Alba" means vegetation, herbs, plants and "Amo" means gatherer or picker. "Vegetation gatherers" would be an apt description for the Alabama Indians who cleared much land for agricultural purposes."

Yeah, what other herbs do you lot grow in Alabama?

[matt_hatter]

Now this stuff is just too funny. We are ruining the John's Bunny trail...or maybe this is what the bunny trail is all about, a reprieve from the banter of the other threads.

Down on the farm, (my Mom and Dad's place) I have kicked up several arrowheads just walking down our cattle trails. Neat stuff.

"Yeah, what other herbs do you lot grow in Alabama?"

Please don't call the black helicopters. We're just good conservative country folk trying to eek out a living in the red clay.

"King Cotton Bob doing the Weiner Square Dance"

As Tikie would say, "UR killin' me".

Matt

From Admin: Don't freak out. It will all sort itself out now since all threads and topics will now organize themselves based on most active. Thanks for you patience.

(Message edited by admin on June 07, 2006)

[matt_hatter]

Thanks Administrator. No problemo for me...but I'm like Hellman's Mayo, I go with everything.

Matt

[john_r_jones]

Look here you sons-a-bunnies, you've tracked tar all over the place and yer guitar needs tunin', the adminstrator's rearranged the hutch and I've got pellets on my shoe now. Anybody seen my lettuce?
John

[matt_hatter]

I am hiding out here. The Emmaus road has a lot of cool nature trails. Am weary of the Krems interstate!!!! No soup for him!!!!

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
HI John, We sent the lettuce to En; they promise to send some back, our portion that is.


Administrator- Thank you!}

[john_r_jones]

One of the points I spoke of on Sunday morning last was perfectionism. In Luke 4 where I guess I posted recently about the hometown crowd I said Jesus' neighbors thought His reading of Isaiah was a pronouncement of approval of their Judaism and the practice thereof.

There was a belief held at the time of Jesus' appearance that a certain number of Sabbath's performed flawlessly-sinlessly would usher in the Messiah's coming. (Sound familiar?) He then began to compare them with those of history where others had been in need but were passed over for blessing and outsiders had been blessed instead. Naman the Syrian a leper cleansed and the widow in Zarephath were used in the illustration along with the prophet Elijah and his ministry. He said a prophet is without honor in his own hometown-that where the prophet speaks, to his people they had rejected them in the past and they would Him on that day. In the ensuing moments they spilled out into the streets and pushed Jesus to the brow of the hill to kill Him in a rage. I suppose He gave them the opportunity along the way to wake-up and realize what they were doing, that their own self condemnation would be their damnation. That their concept of God and the perfection of that concept more acceptable and real to them than the actual Messiah standing there before them. The Messiah-Jesus didn't meet up with their expectations, but He was-is the Messiah they needed.

Our popular culture has the art of perfectionism down-go to a health club lately? They ride stationary bikes and jog on treadmills (metaphorically going nowhere fast) and look at themselves in the mirror for gratuitous self admiration. We have a win at all costs mindset-perfectionism in sporting scandals with steroids and other performance enhancing drugs. We work countless hours to have name-brand possessions because only the best will do. This cultural tsunami has of course washed over the church, we build mega structures with stadium seating, sound systems, audio-visual screens and projectors (another metaphor) and hire and pay handsomely professional musicians and staff to perform in our gatherings. We in effect project onto God our mania for minutia and create a religion, logotypes, slogans and all that market the Gospel of "We've got it together" more than you've got it together. Jesus called us to follow Him not to push Him, to sell Him, to incorporate him in our agenda. Jesus told Peter to "get thee behind me Satan", in response to his "Lord may it never be" He rebuked the Satan of self interest in Peter. That even though Peter had revelation about whom Jesus was he didn't have a heart change in regard to his agenda. When told Satan had asked permission to sift him and to strengthen his brothers after His death, Peter didn't comprehend the message-your days of perfectionism are nearing an end, you'll fall flat on your face.

We similarly are called to follow Jesus with our crosses made of common wood of the stuff that’s around us our failures, mistakes, weaknesses, and sins not in our self approved perfection but His. "Be perfect as my Heavenly Father is perfect" isn't an admonition to get busy but to rest, to rest in the perfect work of the cross, that we being crucified with Christ and resurrected with Him also. We're freed from the CYA mode of the world; we don't cover our tracks, make excuses, exaggerate our successes, or minimalize our failures, and posture ourselves in the most flattering light. We also are freed from categorizing those who meet up with our standards, (or in sales vernacular "qualifying" people) or merit our attention, or deserve our "New and Improved" Messiah. Perfectionism is the world, it is the flesh seeking justification, it is blind to the realities of the Messiah, Jesus.
John

[john_r_jones]

Sam is a stray Dachshund we appropriated as ours a few years back. He was covered in scars and wounds from fights or injuries a vet had taken him in and nursed him to health. We saw him wobble by one day in a unique gait that is all Sam. Soon a sign was posted in our neighborhood that advertised "Dog Found" and we ventured over to the Vets office to inquire about this quizzical critter. He was unclaimed so he became one of us.

If you drive up into our back parking area and come through the back door you'll think you've come to a dog pound. A heard of five dogs and our now part-time resident cat howl, bark, and caterwaul in a chorus of canine greeting. The cat just checks you out to see if you've got food. Sam however is our most demonstrative and earnest pup-WYSIWYG. He just now visited me at my desk and hopped up on the edge of the seat tail whipping furiously, eye to eye demandingly stating "Love Me!” When you do love him by petting him and scratching him behind the ears his lips sort of curls in a rakish grin "I knew it, I knew you loved Me." expression. He jumps down and saunters off in his Sam waddle and all is right in his world.

I sometimes question why in the world there is so much pain and injury inflicted not by the world alone but by the church. There are lots of Sams in the world who are earnestly in search of simple love. There are others who are gifted and blessed with a simple ability to heal, forgive, and restore our wounds, most times wounded in some respect themselves. In fact I would say all have this capacity in some fashion to be a part of the revolutionary idea of creating life where pain exists. We must believe in the one, the Master, the King who wouldn't build His kingdom on our backs, but on His knees to enable us to assume His posture of serving in humility, creativity, and grace.
John

[matt_hatter]

John wrote:"We similarly are called to follow Jesus with our crosses made of common wood of the stuff that’s around us our failures, mistakes, weaknesses, and sins not in our self approved perfection but His...
We're freed from the CYA mode of the world; we don't cover our tracks, make excuses, exaggerate our successes, or minimalize our failures..."

It occured to me as I was reading this of the many times that I have spent on a pond or in a deer stand praying and meditating. There was a period of time that I was doing this instead of going to church. Just couldn't take the glitz, etc, that you mentioned.

I would have this running conversation with the Lord: "I know I shoud be in church...." I began to realize that even this dialog was better than what I was getting out of church. However, I also concluded that we try the CYA thing with our Creator as much as we do with the world. He must just chuckle at us--I hope...

Back in church now and happy, even if it is a Cecil B. DeMille production. Doesn't seem to bother me--I still have the water and the woods!

Matt

[matt_hatter]

See...I can be serious!

[speakword2004]

As I lie here in my bed, my wife not snoring for the first sleep in a week, I can hear the cat in the kitchen crunching her midnight snack of cat pellets. All is peace and calm. But that is fleeting as sleepleness creeps upon me.

Within the time it took me to type this out, kitty is back on the bed feeling for her spot and the wife is back to this annoying habit she has picked up with the winter cold and smog here. Funny how life changes so quickly, John.
I think that is why we appreciate the constants in life so much. The faithful doggie whose hero we will always be, the peaceful and familiar sanctuaries we find . . . Often at night as I lie here in bed I revisit the cosiest adventures of my childhood, trying to recapture that peace I once felt about the world. It's nothing like the shalom of sanctuary in Christ, but it feels like I have been wading to the beach without reaching shore in an endless struggle again recently . I have ditched the boat, but the riptide and backwash is so strong. The boat is not an option again ...we know that. Time to nudge the heavy breather to flip over. ...I'm going to make a go at the beach again. After all it isn't D-day. How hard can it be?

[matt_hatter]

Wow, what a great place to hang out. From King Cotton Bob and Deloreans to deep allegories about the meaning of life. And nobody can tell you that you are off topic except, of course, the bunny.

Where on this big globe are you, Speak?

Matt

[forword]

John: We similarly are called to follow Jesus with our crosses made of common wood of the stuff that’s around us our failures, mistakes, weaknesses, and sins not in our self approved perfection but His. "Be perfect as my Heavenly Father is perfect" isn't an admonition to get busy but to rest, to rest in the perfect work of the cross, that we being crucified with Christ and resurrected with Him also. We're freed from the CYA mode of the world; we don't cover our tracks, make excuses, exaggerate our successes, or minimalize our failures, and posture ourselves in the most flattering light. We also are freed from categorizing those who meet up with our standards, (or in sales vernacular "qualifying" people) or merit our attention, or deserve our "New and Improved" Messiah. Perfectionism is the world, it is the flesh seeking justification, it is blind to the realities of the Messiah, Jesus.

John: I sometimes question why in the world there is so much pain and injury inflicted not by the world alone but by the church. There are lots of Sams in the world who are earnestly in search of simple love. There are others who are gifted and blessed with a simple ability to heal, forgive, and restore our wounds, most times wounded in some respect themselves. In fact I would say all have this capacity in some fashion to be a part of the revolutionary idea of creating life where pain exists. We must believe in the one, the Master, the King who wouldn't build His kingdom on our backs, but on His knees to enable us to assume His posture of serving in humility, creativity, and grace.

Forword: I'm printing out these 2 paragraphs and hanging them over my desk. Very well said. Thank You!...........FW

[speakword2004]

Matt,

I suppose my isp would give that away, but I am in South Africa. Where exactly would be bleeding in the shark tank.

[matt_hatter]

Thanks, I recall that, just rust on the brain.

An isp looks like a lottery number to me. Hmmm...gives me an idea, think I'll make a road trip down to the Florida panhandle this weekend, get a 2 lottery tickets to match both our our isp's and maybe we can share in this prosperity gospel thing.....

Going back to bed, it's 4:30 AM in Alabama!

Matt

[speakword2004]

What a great idea! I'll do the same on my side. Jackpot here we come!

[john_r_jones]

Merton said, "If it is God you find too easily then is it God you've found?" Similarly, if it is God you've defined then it is not God; or as those in the East say if you find the Buddha then kill the Buddha. Jesus who is the human face of God told more about who God is not than who He is. I can spend the day in an exercise of likewise unlearning what I've be told is truth about God.

We like our illusions, our creations they are what we seek to make us comfortable, life manageable, our spirituality domesticated. I think God would rather us be naked and honest than clothed in falsehood and deceit. When I say deceit I'm not speaking of pernicious behavior, but self deception, which I have most definitely indulged in days gone by. (Not to mention NOW!) As Brennan Manning says I am full of paradoxes; I'm in, I'm out, I feel guilty about not feeling guilty, I'm a rational animal and I have a great capacity for beer, to paraphrase some provocative thought. The church of our day suffers under the scandal of an overly generous God; we like to parse who's in and who's out; our concept of God and our belief systems more precious to us than Himself. We project onto God our own inadequacies and self hatred and assume He's of the same persuasion towards us. We create arcane systems of knowledge and ideas and ideals which lens our view of the world, ourselves, others and God. We assume His kingdom is one of conquest and imperialism, that all must come under its hegemony to be considered righteous much less considered at all.

Some theologians say the most defining aspect of scripture are the parables of Jesus, they illustrate the heart and mind of God in human terms. Let’s consider the foolish farmer who gave a week’s wages to the slackers who'd loitered around until the mid-day and the afternoon when those who were industrious had already been given work for the work was plentiful. At the end of the day they were all paid the same wage those who'd worked the longest were the most indignant. The farmer said he would do as he pleased with his property, his wealth-they were incensed it was unfair!

The business of religion is to move beyond mere knowledge of God and giving place to intimacy with God. When we realize that beyond the theological necessity of love, that God is required to love us it is intrinsic to His nature when He ceases to love he ceases to be God; but that He likes us, He's fond of us. Many in Christianity will live a life that is devoid of this reality, they've struck a bargain, they've earned their keep, and they regard God as a task master whose imperious nature holds them in the netherworld of contempt. The indignation of the elder brother whose fattened calf was the main course of a feast that went on for days to celebrate the return of his shiftless brother is their mien. It was mine for certain, for years, for days on end, for hours where I labored under the intense sun of fear. We must see that the fear of God isn't an antipathy between us and the Almighty but this; silent wonder, radical amazement, reverent affectionate awe. Prime time prayer consideration homework-Isa 43:1-5, I John 4:16-19, Psa. 103. Tomorrow then?
John

[john_r_jones]

P.S. I'm posting different stuff here and over yonder on proboards if yer interested.

John aka Jonesy

[matt_hatter]

Will there be a pop test?

Matt

[coppertree]

<font face="arial\ No Matt "> I heard that it a hop quiz ; more math nerd humour, lol. We need it to begin again a new math project. Hopefully John, I will be able to hop on by.</font>

[matt_hatter]

This poor guy puts all of this thought into his lessons and we make jokes. I think we are going to have to 'get together' and deliver him from a spirit of rejection.

OK OK, John, I'll comment on it tommorrow, I swear, between you and 84, et al, it is becoming Egghead City in here. Where's my Red Book? Didn't have to think with that one. Matt

[john_r_jones]

I'm smiling!
John

[john_r_jones]

We're created in the image of God and our image of God is reflected in how we believe and behave. Our world is shaped by how we think God thinks of us and in turn how we think about Him.

When we realize that the exercise of shoulda, woulda, coulda is wrapped around the ego self and in the doing we can never be who we're supposed to be and that's fine with God. In fact a friend of Brennan Manning's has a large banner hanging in her living room, "Today I'll not Should on Myself". When someone tells her she should be in class again, or on the mission field, or some other should she says, "Don't should on me!" Say it to yourself. "May all your expectations be frustrated, may all your plans thwarted, may all your desires withered into nothingness, that you may experience the powerlessness and poverty of a child and sing and dance in the power of the love of God."-Larry Hein spiritual director and mentor to Brennan Manning.

I've written about this before so I'll ask you to indulge me again. Jesus' disciples came upon him praying and his posture and demeanor was unlike any other man they'd seen praying. They said to Him, "John taught his disciples to pray could you likewise teach us?" Jesus accommodated them in this manner "Our Father..." Again I’ve said this before but the Pharisees were scandalized by Jesus and called Him a blasphemer for his use of the common colloquial term for a Dad "Abba". The Jews in practice never used the name of God; an orthodox Jew of the time would have been stoned for such. The consonants were used to spell out the "Otherness" of God. His name was breathed once a year amidst the incense and candles of the inner court in the Holy of Holies by the high priest in fear and trembling while on his face. And Jesus has the audacity to tell His disciples to call him "Abba"-daddy the gibberish of a child. Is our prayer life of such simple reality that we can envision ourselves in His lap tugging at His beard, taking a nap, or playing, the import for this to God is that we've chosen this time to be with Him.

I remember sharing this with my Sunday school class a few years ago and they gave an initial skeptical look. Some though had gone home and begun to see themselves in this posture of a child in Daddy's lap. Indeed for me the rigors and rectitude of our prayer life in Maranatha found me praying in spite of the discipline. In fact I remember having a conversation with God many years ago when I still had hair. I was struggling in my devotions and prayer life and He came to and said, "If someone came to you and said, 'I'm disciplining my self to spend time with you' you'd probably say 'No thanks' how flattering or endearing is that? But if you had someone say 'I'd like to get to know you better and it is of such importance for me to do so could we make a regular appointment to get together and talk?' you'd say 'Yeah!'" Though sometimes I refer to my time as a habit it is more considerate of God than that, it is creative, and sensitive, it is dynamic and quiet all at the same time. In prayer there are also times of felt absence, just like there are times of felt presence we take one along with the other. I've heard the sage remark in church circles that if there's an absence of feeling or that God isn't there then you must've moved because God doesn't move. Baloney, God moves, He indeed invites us to dance in His presence and sometimes He takes a step back to draw us forward, to move with Him.

Continued below...

[john_r_jones]

Sometimes when we feel Him least he is nearest, I take comfort in that as I did the other morning when I spoke on Sunday. I'd grown up with these folks in Maranatha, what would they say this old bald headed fart speaking about grace; about my failures, and how God has reigned supreme in the midst of them; not abandoning me, but championing me in failure.

Our consciousness of God as an abstraction of pagan descent like the unmovable mover of Aristotle or Plato the other outside of existence a Supreme Being whatever that is, isn't an image of a "Daddy". When my image of God began to be healed as Manning speaks of then I'm healed as well. The truth of Galatians 4:6, "God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the spirit who calls out Abba Father." rings in our hearts and our minds the separation of the two diminishes as we pray this simple prayer over to ourselves an to God; "Abba I belong to You."
John

[matt_hatter]

John: 'In fact a friend of Brennan Manning's has a large banner hanging in her living room, "Today I'll not Should on Myself". "

Matt: John,you and others have opened my eyes to "carpe diem!" (I hope I am right here--Sieze the day!) There now, did I pass the pop quiz?

Matt

[dust]

Jay,
I hope you see this. I enjoyed your input. I "understand" exactly what you mean by the JBKrems wear out. It's worn me out too. But, only because he is a proto-type of the naive, immature, sponging up the inaccurate truth and appearing to not have a heart to know truth. He may...just doesn't appear that way. How many do we know like him in Maranatha/MS/EN? Too many.

I agree about not bantering with him any longer. I had to examine my own feelings here. And, he simply represents the raped mind of the apostolicophiles. I, too, pray for truth to reign here. I don't think it's a wise move to address him any longer. He asked me if I was a cessationist. NO. I operate in the gifts of discerning of spirits and word of knowledge, evangelism and intercession and healing. I see a lonely picture of a guy who could benefit from relationships and fellowship (not on line). And, that is my prayer for him. This is not the place for that. And, let me say this in love and peace.
Dust

[john_r_jones]

Thanks Matt for your response, I would say that yes it is the day to act on realizing the scandalous, or as G.K. Chesterton called it, the furious love of God. That it pursues and surrounds us, it sees us from afar and like the Prodigal's father can't stop kissing us on the neck. He can't help himself he holds us near, the sound of his son's voice not in a logical premise for a deal he heard, but music to the old man's heart. If you can comprehend the love of Abba today you've done well. Hot tears are streaming down my face as I write this as I hope desperately you see how much the Father delights in y'all.
John

[matt_hatter]

John, it "bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails..." (NASB)

The Bunny Trail goes from a frenetic comedy zone to a contempletive retreat. What a wonderful place to hang out!

Matt

[john_r_jones]

We laughed, we cried...
John

P.S. "The Hutch" my blog initiated by my wife is a thang-o-beauty. I'll write something and y'all drop on by.

[matt_hatter]

I don't have the address. Please provide and I will split my offering between you and tik.

[john_r_jones]

http://www.johnshutch.blogspot.com Here's the address, watch for droppings.
John

[matt_hatter]

and such a handsome guy you are.

[john_r_jones]

That's Archie my friend a twenty-one month old orang and budding actor.
John

[matt_hatter]

Is he related to Clyde? He's tight with Clint Eastwood and maybe he could get his orangs to call your orang and do a 3 banana martini lunch.

Matt

[matt_hatter]

"I agree about not bantering with him any longer."

Dust, in reference to your Friday post, exactly. I have come over to the bunny trail to hide. If the JBK Interstate roars through, it will be ignored. 'Nuf said, tar is a very difficult thing to extract oneself from, and it smells terrible. Sorry if this sounds cold, but I am just too old to be PC.
Matt

[matt_hatter]

Saturday morning, my favorite time of the week. Has been for years, while the fam sleeps the morning away, I am usually up at 5. Belle (our golden) and Pepper (our tabby) get their breakfast, Belle and I walk down the drive and get the paper and I make that special 1st pot of coffee that I know Allie will not drink, a spoon will stand up in it. It is curious, I read the sports, put CMT on TV and have for years called it my 'quiet time'--and I don't mean that sacastically or blasphemous, I truly have a connect with the Lord. No Bible?? Nope, No Hootah?? Nope. No kneeling and posturing? None of that. Just those special moments quietly spending time with a good Friend without having to utter a word.

Matt

[matt_hatter]

OK, going for a record here, 4 posts in a row. I have noticed that I have now broken the 100 post barrier. Do I get some kind of prize from "Mr Big" Bunny or something?? Anxiously awaiting...

Matt Hatter in Wonderland

[john_r_jones]

I was up at three am watching a DVD from the seminar I went to last weekend and the line of thought provided struck me today as I went for my prayer time. My wife and I are both insomniacs so our times of hanging out in the wee hours of the night or afternoon both share the same incongruity at times of sleep deprivation.

Compassion, the word used by Jesus in the gospels has a weak sister in the English language translation of pity or empathy. The Greek word has more to do with our bowels and intestines, the most inward parts of a human's being. It literally translates Jesus feelings towards human suffering and pain are a gut wrenching, heart rending outpouring of love and concern for the human condition; that the gospel anecdotes of healing and miracles are mere shadows of the Father's love and compassion towards us. That as Jesus said, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." as an illustration that Father God is moved and torn by His regard for us. Again like the Prodigal's Father, who upon glimpsing his son afar off in the fields runs to him losing all decorum. As the head of the household and a man of stature it was undignified behavior for this old man to run, improper, and unseemly to run through the fields in full view of the hands and laborers.

Brennan Manning tells of the story of being summoned to the deathbed of an aged man who'd been overlooked several times by his too busy pastor. As he came into the old man's room in the back of a house he introduced himself and asked what he could do for him. He found the scene odd however because he saw a chair pulled out from the wall facing the old man as he lay propped up on a couple of pillows. The old fellow motioned him to come near and he said he'd a secret untold to anyone, not even his daughter lest they check him into the booby hatch.

It seems some seventeen years prior he'd approached his pastor had asked for help in the realm of prayer, his sermons had done nothing for him in that regard but hoped for some inspiration of some sort. The pastor motioned him into the study and there produced a tome by a Swiss theologian on the arcania of prayer. After suffering through a few pages he resigned himself to prayerlessness and returned the book to the pastor with a tepid thanks (sotto voce "for nothing") and remarked that the first page had sent him to the dictionary eleven times. As a happenstance a friend heard of his dilemma and gave him this simple solution to prayer; get a chair and sit in the opposite of it and talk to Jesus as you would a trusted friend imagining Jesus sitting there conversing with you. The old man after relating this to Manning asked if he thought that was whacked or too simplistic an approach for he engaged in this practice for two hours each day. He replied that he felt he was on holy ground here and that his solution to prayer was quite simple, direct, effective and inspiring to invite comment other than awe. A few days later the old man had passed away and the man's daughter who'd contacted Manning let him know. She added though this after thought; he was found after she'd gone to the market that morning to get a few things and run some errands and had left him alone with his head lying in the chair. He passed cradled in the arms of Jesus in the bedside chair.

[john_r_jones]

Forget your religious nostrums, platitudes, and theories, do you know Jesus like this fellow did? If you don't do you know you can and that in fact Jesus himself desires that you do. Can you imagine Jesus enjoying your company? He does, He thinks the world of you-just like you are, not as you should be. Additionally do you know He knows about the places that are so secret and shameful that they make us shudder and He wants to come and have a time of sharing in those areas of hurt and pain to let you know he cares deeply about those places and desires to heal them with you? A friend of a friend both sloshed in a pub in the Ukraine were arm in arm one afternoon and one turned to the other and asked if he was his friend, the automatic slurred reply was "Of course." Well the friend asked the other "Do ya know what hurts me?" The other stared blankly and shrugged his shoulders no. The first fellow frowned and asked "Then how can you be my friend?"

Jesus knows deeply what makes you hurt, blanch, shudder, and skulk in self revulsion, and he frankly loves you no less for it. In fact he expects you to sin and screw-up more than you do and still love and accept you as you.

More to come in this neighborhood...

John

(Message edited by john r. jones on June 10, 2006)

[john_r_jones]

"Tell him what he's won Johnny!"

"You've won the big-bunny inflatable globe and lifesize cardboard cutouts of your favorite apostles to be photographed with to impress your friends. You've also won the home version board game 'Take Over the World' complete with plexiglass podium, pretend gated community pass card, and a talking disciple doll that calls you 'Champ' when you pull the string. You'll have hours of fun with the entire family bringing them into submission over and over again!"

Oops! that was my outloud voice.
John

(Message edited by john r. jones on June 10, 2006)

[matt_hatter]

John, UR killing me...I am peeking out the plantation shutters for the UPS man...can't wait for the doll...I'l bet she looks like a Maranatha Stepford Wife! "Honey, iron my shirt..light starch in the sleeves please, and hurry!!!"

Matt

[matt_hatter]

Tikie, are you reading some of this??? This guy is a real piece of work...goes from Francis Schaeffer to Jay Leno in 4 seconds flat. "Mr. Big" Bunny from now on in my book...ya'll have a great day, Mr. Weedeater is calling my name!

Matt

[j2theperson]

To be curmudgeony and cynical...This is only one of several stories I have heard about old guys who pray to empty chairs. I know they're supposed to be inspirational and touching, but I can't get over the fact that these old men are all *praying to empty chairs*. There's nobody actually sitting in them and the chairs never talk back.

I also wonder what sort of results praying to the empty chair brought the man in the above story. If he really felt it brought him closer to God why on earth would he--after seventeen years--still feel so insecure about his mode of prayer that he felt the urge to confess it to a pastor and find out if it was an okay form of prayer? After 17 years of conversing with God wouldn't he have some sort of security in his form of conversation--if he really *was* conversing with God.

Okay, the rain is over, the parade can now recommence. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[john_r_jones]

Being a fellow curmudgeon and cynic I appreciate your perspective I think. And obviously my cynical side is alive and well evidenced by my posts. I can't speak to the insecurity he felt about his prayer life, just the apparent intimacy he had. I suppose we all are insecure about some aspects of things we have a degree of intimacy about, I know I do.
John

[sameo]

Comment to Matt_hatter-in regards to your "Mar stepford wife" comment.

UH! Oh, NO you "di--ent!!"(say that) Hey, I may have been one of those "Stepford wives>" (Oh, wait-I'm a guy) but still....hehe Congrats on your win of the "Champion doll." (good one, John)

Seriously, thanks John for the encouragement above-concerning Jesus unconditional love for us! Good stuff! (please be nice to me?!--I hate posting on here--extremely vulnerable place)

later, SameO

[matt_hatter]

Sameo, nice to meet you--if you were a Stepford Wife, I would give you a word of advice, ditch the Laura Ashley and the Liz Claiborne and get a couple of those bohemian peasant skirts...yea

Don't be afraid of John. He is as harmless as a Hare.

Welcome and Happy "Trails"

Matt Hatter

[speakword2004]

I really enjoyed both of JRJ's mails. I shed a tear at the 1st, and my wife laughed merrily at the second.
"Chucky Champ!"
I have really enjoyed this week's trail mix.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Sameo- Don't hold back, no one else does. I like to see your posts!}

[sameo]

Matt!! thx for the "welcome!" Good news-I never did wear much "Laura Ashley." I was alittle more contemporary and bucked the system.(they messed w/ my soul-but I put my foot down w/ my fashion sense)lol BTW--love the Bohemian peasant skirt! (So totally me):-) How'd you know?!

Anyway-true confession-I guess I was a "Stepford Mar wife!" <sigh> there(I said it)---Bill Mack, I'm not a guy! I can take it--(Lashes w/ a wet noodle!) Go ahead!

Coppertree-thanks! I feel your love! :-)

And I seriously apologize to all of you-for having been the "Stepford wife!" Fortunately, I mostly was rebuked for being TOO nice and not harder on the "flock!" Wow-now I look back and go "Thank goodness!!! Who knew?!! But I played the game too! Unfortunately! So, I ask for your forgiveness!

thx all! SameO

[matt_hatter]

Allright! A chick!!!

j2 said: "why on earth would he--after seventeen years--still feel so insecure about his mode of prayer..."

This got me to thinking...don't we, who approach the Throne with all humility, have a little sense of this? I mean, we are speaking to the Creator. Insecure? I'm guilty.

How about John (the Revelator)
Rev 1:17--And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. NASB

I think if I would have spent more time in this mode, instead you shouting at Him all these glorious confessions about ME, I might have spared myself a heap o' trouble.

Matt

[j2theperson]

***I can't speak to the insecurity he felt about his prayer life, just the apparent intimacy he had.***

That's just it--it was "apparent" intimacy. For intimacy to be genuine there *has* to be two mutually involved people. The story only mentions the man and his actions. It says nothing about God's response. But, for actual intimacy to have occured God *needed* to respond.

I know the story is supposed to be inspirational, but I find it deeply sad. The man spent 2 hours every day pouring his heart out to an empty chair. Maybe if his pastor had been a better pastor or his family had been more interested in him he could have poured his heart out to real people who actually would respond to him.

And what a sad ending...to die not surrounded by people he loved and by whom he was loved, but to die alone in the "arms" of an empty chair.

[john_r_jones]

Well fortunately there is room for our varying perspectives, thanks for yours.
John

[john_r_jones]

I spoke last Sunday at my friends' church about the essential point made in Luke 4 where Jesus went to His hometown for an inaugural disposition of His ministry. That is they disliked His take on their spirituality and took matters into their own hands.

As a prodigal we come to a place of not being a bystander such as the servants or the brother but as one who has taken matters into our own hands, and failed. I've always found solace in figuring out where I stand on an issue and elucidating it to whomever would listen. My occupation for a time was doing that on a daily basis on my talk show. I found my spiritual pursuit of equal importance or even more, it's being Christian you know. For years I'd debated Maranathans and others on the merits or lack thereof of stuff which in retrospect don't matter as much now. It could be a matter of being right, Lord knows I have an addiction to that, but I also think it a matter deeper and more driven-security.

I've needed the security of being in control of my spiritual journey, of plotting out a course and detailing the strategy of belief and action to under gird that belief. I acted in the manner of the prodigal thinking up a scheme, a way to earn my keep back at the ranch where "Daddio" pays the hands well. Unsettling it is for me to be held in the embrace of a loving Father who's shushed my excuses and rationalizations. The appeal of the logic of my ingenuity is moot for Him, He cares only to love me and remove my shame and have me trust Him. In the same way Jesus had to entrust His spiritual journey to the Father, the Gethsemane experience of prayer and of comfort led Him to Calvary the next day, where stripped naked and at a loss of everything including His dignity He clung to the felt presence of His Father, where He forgave those who murdered Him in ignorance. Then came the time when He shrieked not in physical agony but in spiritual abandonment, "My God, My God why have you forsaken me?" Somewhere Jesus came to the place of trust where He allowed himself the place of trust to be commended into the Father's hands, "Into thy hands I commend my spirit." At the end of it He gave Himself not only for us, but for Himself over to His Father's embrace as a prodigal returning not in control but in trust. "It is finished", I don't know how, or where, or why, but I give myself back to you Father, and He died.

I have grown accustomed to being in control, in certain areas I'm loosening my grip, in some cases a death grip, my spirituality included. I return once again to the scene in Luke 4 where we're told it was Jesus' custom to worship in that synagogue, where He proclaimed the scriptures' fulfillment in their hearing. Where Jesus relinquished His custom that day and didn't explain himself to the hometown crowd as they pushed Him to the brow of the hill. He didn't make a deal, or become a hireling, or create adherents by manipulation. It says, "He walked through the crowd and went on His way."
John

[maranatha1984]

Matthttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gifK, going for a record here, 4 posts in a row. I have noticed that I have now broken the 100 post barrier. Do I get some kind of prize from "Mr Big" Bunny or something?? Anxiously awaiting...

84: Sorry work and family have been calling- yes you get your own personal deliverance visit from Nick Pappis and Bob Weiner

[maranatha1984]

Matthttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gifK, going for a record here, 4 posts in a row. I have noticed that I have now broken the 100 post barrier. Do I get some kind of prize from "Mr Big" Bunny or something?? Anxiously awaiting...

84: Sorry work and family have been calling- yes you get your own personal deliverance visit from Nick Pappis and Bob Weiner

[maranatha1984]

John:You've won the big-bunny inflatable globe and lifesize cardboard cutouts of your favorite apostles to be photographed with to impress your friends. You've also won the home version board game

84: AS i said John Nick and Bob, second prize he gets Rice and Rose

[maranatha1984]

Matt:This guy is a real piece of work...goes from Francis Schaeffer to Jay Leno in 4 seconds flat. "Mr. Big" Bunny from now on in my book...ya'll have a great day, Mr. Weedeater is calling my name!

84: Basically I think you guys are all smoking something out of the cosmic bong from 78

[maranatha1984]

Sameo:I never did wear much "Laura Ashley." I was alittle more contemporary and bucked the system.(they messed w/ my soul-but I put my foot down w/ my fashion sense)lol BTW--love the Bohemian peasant skirt! (So totally me):-) How'd you know?!

84: hmmmm there Sameo sounds like you either had a spirit of Harlotry or were a Jezabel,http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[maranatha1984]

84: Okay Matt five in a row for me. I think I get the big one the really huge prize:

A 24 hour cross country trip with Nasso in a VW bug listening non stop to Hagin and Copeland

[sameo]

Sameo:I never did wear much "Laura Ashley." I was alittle more contemporary and bucked the system.

84: hmmmm there Sameo sounds like you either had a spirit of Harlotry or were a Jezabel.

Cute, '84--hehe Funny thing is I used to get compliments by married and single brothers alike. It would freak me out when a "Sharpie" married guy said he liked my outfit-(I was so "legalistic"-i thought for sure he'd just committed adultery.) LOL But mind you, I did not dress provacatively. Just out of the "Laura Ashley" box. But as "we sista's" know--you've either got the physique for Laura Ashley-or you just don't. LOL

While I am waaay off the bunny trail on fashion-let's not forget the Mar guys. It seemed like overnight you guys were ALL wearing cacky pants, a button down Ralph Lauren dress shirt, and a Navy (Bob) blazer.(and dress loafers w/ a tassel) If you were Rice or an evangelist-you ventured out and wore a pink or yellow dress shirt. Am I right? OH, and your briefcase! LOL

And one last thing-to all the ladies out there---"for the record" I did not dislike Laura Ashley. As I said, some of us just couldn't squeeze in it. <sigh>

SameO

[matt_hatter]

John said: "Unsettling it is for me to be held in the embrace of a loving Father who's shushed my excuses and rationalizations. The appeal of the logic of my ingenuity is moot for Him, He cares only to love me and remove my shame and have me trust Him."

John firstly, I cannot believe all this childish banter. I would never participate in such mind-numbing exercises on the bunny trail...

Anyway, to my point. The intimacy of our Father..what a beautiful thing!

Jer. 29:11-14. What a sweet love story.

Matt

[john_r_jones]

Mind numbing, particularly in a Volkswagon.
John

[maranatha1984]

Sameo: While I am waaay off the bunny trail on fashion-let's not forget the Mar guys. It seemed like overnight you guys were ALL wearing cacky pants, a button down Ralph Lauren dress shirt, and a Navy (Bob) blazer.(and dress loafers w/ a tassel) If you were Rice or an evangelist-you ventured out and wore a pink or yellow dress shirt. Am I right? OH, and your briefcase! LOL

84: during the orientation in the big send out Bob W actually brought me up, pink shirt blazer Khakis penny loafers and all as an example of "what a brother should be"
Seriously- do you remember that Matt

[matt_hatter]

I missed all of that, Allie failed to pick up my pink Izod and kelly green trousers from the cleaners and I couldn't face the world in levis and chukka boots.

Matt

[sameo]

84: during the orientation in the big send out Bob W actually brought me up, pink shirt blazer Khakis penny loafers and all as an example of "what a brother should be"
Seriously- do you remember that Matt

SameO: LOL---Why does that NOT surprise me about you back then, '84!!! hehe Well, most definitely there was this "image" thing we needed to uphold. This was almost up there with 100% total committment. Not kidding! But many were cleaned up and given some pointers....I remember this guy had a bad haircut...after he was re-dressed and got his hair cut...he was "da' bomb"....and of course then deemed worthy of full time ministry status.

SO,anyhoo... after all is said and done....nice to be reminded by John(above) of God's acceptance and love for us. Just the way we are! ("Levi's and chukka boots, " and all!) right, Matt?!!

[matt_hatter]

It would be funny if it wasn't all so true. Talk about a shallow way to base one's spirituality. What a bunch of empty shells. I understand the tradition has contiuned in EN. No hermit crabs in these shells either, just empty, cavernous, sound proof....space.

[john_r_jones]

Matt,
the emptyness of the blazer might have been due to the individual being hollowed out, of being lost because they were euthanized inwardly. Their human spirit was suffocated, starved and consumed for the exegencies of the ministry. Paul spoke of ravenous false shepherds who feed on their sheep. Sheep when slaughtered lay down and twitch, they don't run, in fact the remaining sheep left alive run to those being slaughtered and seek to be slaughtered themselves because of a sense of belonging to the herd. The herd as it were did as they were told including being quietly deadened inside in obedience to the leadership. As folks come alive by the way they usually have a gamut of emotions-anger, sadness, and grief over their loss. As they are revived as well there is joy, ecstasy, and tears as well. To watch someone hollowed-out become whole and unique again is a sight to behold.
John

[40days40years]

What I don't get about Bob is I thought he and his friends came from a Jesus people type of background in the early days, where clothes did not matter. That movement did not care if you wore jeans and a tee-shirt with sandals. In a way Bob is the epitomy of an anti-Jesus people type of guy with his attitudes at least towards dress. What happened? did he ever really belong to that movement?

[matt_hatter]

"To watch someone hollowed-out become whole and unique again is a sight to behold."

Yea John, and at 50, I am just about at half a' tank, so " fill er' up Lord with your unique octane of love and mercy!!"

Matt

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi All catching up, as usual in math project presently, fun stuff for me. Anyway, about the dressing up for all in this group; I think that , it started in MLTS when the whole church came together monthly. We were told to look good for the leaders from the body of Christ that came to speak to all of us. We were to reach the leaders in our generation, so to speak. We needed to look good to reflect on our God.Lessons were given on how to act, etc. And in addition we were checking each other out looking for God' perfect mate for us, also. Busy weekends those were!}

[john_r_jones]

40/40,
we had someone come with a teaching to the leadership about the "Jesus" movement being based in rebellion to authority. They taught that the entire ministry had been based in that spirit of rebellion. Bob used to wear a work shirt and jeans on 2500 Washington St. in Paducah. When we began to move in the direction of responsibility in the community our dress began to change. It started with one of the mayoral candidates coming to speak at out local church meeting then later we went to a campaign rally for Jimmy Carter because he was a Christian.
John

[matt_hatter]

http://www.youthnow.org/home.php?p=ministries

Only if you have the guts. Looks right out of 1980 when he was shaking hands with Reagan.

Matt

[matt_hatter]

OK OK, I repent.
Matt

[john_r_jones]

New droppings in "The Hutch" http://www.johnshutch.blogspot.com/
John

[matt_hatter]

Thanks John, I have been absconding the bunny trail and pilfering some of Farmer Jones' lettuce over at the hutch.

Matt

[john_r_jones]

Spirituality isn't an exercise in academics where we seek to sterilize the field with sinless perfection, it happens in the midst of our humanness. Could we lose our blinders for a minute and see that much of the Gospel portrayal of Jesus' sermons, truths and miracles happened in the rush of life.

Clothed in the desperation, perspiration, and crush of occupation, teeming crowds jostled this Messiah while He proclaimed the nearness of a kingdom not of this world. And His messages weren't delivered while an organ droned in the background; white linen vestments and the appropriate stole for the season of the church year robed Him with respectability. His kingdom was built amongst the poor, the outcasts, those who were not only sinners in deed but in social class, without hope of acceptance by the religious community. I like the spirituality of Jesus because it’s earthy, real, and unrehearsed; it smells of life in the street, not the narthex.

Give your imagination room to stretch, your illusions an exit door, and your inner person a voice that rings true to who He was; He gave himself to the proposition that the Father loved people, not institutions. He sought out those who couldn't possibly make sense of their lives other than the context of His redeeming touch. The woman at the well, Matthew the cheat and swindler, the children who scrambled up into His lap, all knew His presence meant something more than a platitude; He gave them His life in their encounters.

Long before the lifeblood came coursing out of his veins and brow, His life was given to those around Him in His love. In fact he takes you more seriously than you do yourself, He holds you in high regard at this moment He's anticipated this time to be with you. He's here now not locked in some ages old myth; a fairy-tale with gold deckled edges in a white leather cover of stuffy religion and pious looks. Let the presence of a Nazarene from Judea; from the wrong side of the tracks give your heart a tug today, a poke in the arm, and your mind a place where there are no disapproving stares.
John

[j2theperson]

I have just wasted my 100th post by posting about how I wasted my 100th post. I feel very Zen.

[john_r_jones]

The wages of Zen is...
John

[john_r_jones]

One of the bizarre outcomes of religion is the depersonalizing of people in the name of saving them. We loose sight of the person in creating rules for the whole. Hugging school is but one of the aberrant notions that would be an example of learning to be sensitive to others and their personal space. Different hugs for different mugs; if a less than appropriate hug is rendered tell them, otherwise the embrace police show up in helmets with blue flashing lights and a ruler.
John

[speakword2004]

Congrats J2

You win an online motorbike maintenance kit.

http://members.aol.com/JesusImages/ImagesJun06/dental.jpg

I found this through a stange link today, but I think this artist's heart is in the right place. He means well and despite myself, I thoroughly enjoyed laughing all my cynicism away due to his obvious love of Jesus. It is just a gentle reminder that He is with us and despite what we think He looks like etc. He does care.

http://members.aol.com/JesusImages/index.htm

[john_r_jones]

Speak,
obviously Jesus practices good oral hygene as evidenced in the first picture you linked with his gleaming toothy smile. Plastic surgeon art anyone?
John

[j2theperson]

I've known about that site for years. It cracks me up. I think of it as the "JC The Stalker" website.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

His expression in this one (http://members.aol.com/JesusImages/ImagesJun06/bodybuilder.jpg) cracks me up.

And He looks kind of a like a hijacker from a horror movie in this one (http://members.aol.com/JesusImages/ImagesJun06/trucker.jpg).

***You win an online motorbike maintenance kit.***

Wonderful. It's perfect for my online motorbike.

[john_r_jones]

In the meandering conversations on several threads there is a lot of emotion being heard in our posts-good!

Jesus in my interpretation of the gospels became most exercised at the use of scripture by religionists to burden people, stifle their spirits, and wash out the wonder of life. In so doing we create equilibrium addicts, the pursuit of balance, of keeping things nicey-nice becomes the overriding goal.

Those steamy passages in the Song of Solomon give us insight into the passionate, furious love of our Father. The Prodigal illustrates for us that God makes a fool of Himself over us losing all decorum and propriety at our sight, the Father couldn't stop kissing his son on the neck. Some church rituals, the lighting of candles for instance, are indicative of God's passion for His church, of Jesus' bride, she enthralls Him.

A church awash in freedom, including freedom to sin, is a church free to choose Jesus, to turn to Him in genuine passionate love. We are made to give voice in God's creation to the wonder, beauty, romance, and joy of being alive. It also gives us room for angst, fear, doubt, rejection, and to hear His voice yet calling to us. By the way the calling isn't "You'd better straighten up or else!"

In this vein I highly recommend the book "Messy Spirituality" which I'm using as a reference point in my blog. Some of the anecdotes in his book of grace in his church experience literally crack me up. I think in the midst of pain, of tears, of suffering, I'm reminded of being able to rush into His arms and racked with emotion feel His embrace.
John

[john_r_jones]

I'll go out on a limb here to say that I believe part of the explosion of promiscuity and pornography in our society stems from a passionless church.

My wife and I were discussing the phenomena of Fathers expressing acceptance to their children on a daily basis. There is place on the internet where homemade videos post from the world over at a dizzying rate. Videos of teenaged girls dancing and prancing about in their t-shirts remind me of what we called the "Hideaway Court Mafia"; a neighborhood where all the kids flocked to our house.

Being the only male resident of the sorority house I married into squealing girls were the norm. One Thanksgiving Friday I looked out in the yard and 60 kids were at play and they wanted Mr. John to come out and hang with them. That same year the Christmas break betided the first time one of our neighbors daughters had felt comfortable being apart from her mother. I remember clearly MS. Patty stopping by in her Volvo and saying she was going to run errands for Christmas and how great it was that Erin was enjoying playing with our kids-a first.

I just returned from visiting a friend who pastors a church and his house is crawling with teenagers and young adults. A far cry from Maranatha I can tell you. It's interesting to me how life affirming and formative is the acceptance of a father figure for our youth not to mention us older folks. Want to stamp out Porn? Give people the real thing-self worth and they won't settle for the cheap imitation of idolatrous worship of the body. They'll see themselves, their image a reflection of the beauty of the Father's image. The poetic "Apple of the Eye" is the literal reflection of ourselves as seen in the eye of one gazing at us.
John

[john_r_jones]

I've been puttering about in the hutch of late if yer interested.
John
http://www.johnshutch.blogspot.com/

[jesusisawesome]

John, absolutely love your post # 604 about God's love depicted in the Song of Solomon.

[john_r_jones]

Thankayou.
JOHN

[john_r_jones]

General Chat sounds like an aggregate supplier for the driveway. (Next paving themed thread for our tar-baby friend will be Endless Asphalt.) Anyway from the Hutch an official Happy Father's Day to all y'all daddy rabbits out there. I've already begun the celebration talking to one of my kids about life until 4AM. Don't burn the burgers! Ciao.
John

[john_r_jones]

Life's going to be wilder'n a burlap bag full-o-bobcats for me the next two days cooking for four hundred so I'm duplicating my posts here and there, if that doesn't sound too arrogant.
-Thanks

In the courtyard for two thousand years or so is the Father of the prodigal in confrontation with the Elder son. I say confrontation and for me the immediate image is finger in the chest rancor, not so with Jesus' parable.

The father went out side the party of celebration to pursue the elder son who refused to enter, to acknowledge the prodigal's restoration. We Christians like to luxuriate ourselves in the notion of this staunch refusal to participate, to acknowledge the redeeming grace of the Father in Jesus as the reserve of Jews, agnostics, atheists and sinners. We're supposedly seated with a napkin tucked under our chin and a healthy slab of veal and mashed potatoes brimming over on our plate of redemption. In fact we deserve to be here, we uh, um, er, ah, earned it, and we’re the faithful, the ones who prayed the sinner's prayer. We become "Prodigal Connoisseurs" we estimate the depth of debauchery, the ins and outs of the outs and nod gravely as they come through the door, and turn and with lip smakin' gusto resume our feast.

Christianity has and can become a place where the guests are shown the door or rush through the portals in outrage over the lack of decorum of the late comers. The grace of God becomes a shabby enterprise of self indulgence, meanwhile ole dad still out in the courtyard for two thousand or so years now where we left him and the elder brother. His posture implied as we view this scenario one of enduring redemption and pursuit of humanity in a quest of reconciliation.

One of the chapters of Michael Yaconelli's book "Messy Spirituality " is entitled "Unspiritual Growth" one of the issues he deals with in the course of many is one of stuckness and unstuckness. In a nutshell when the Tug-o-war between God's will and ours is at a standstill. "We're stuck going nowhere, unable to get beyond a particular point." he writes. "Getting stuck can be the best thing that can happen to us, because it forces us to stop. It halts the momentum of our lives. We have no choice but to notice what is around us, and we end up searching for Jesus." He further writes about it revealing our hunger for God and longings and yearnings that have been stifled. So much for instant obedience and delayed obedience is no obedience or some such notion to that effect.

[john_r_jones]

He goes on to detail the adventure of a ropes course group event staged for the staff at his ministry. His fear of heights dogs him all day in the looming tower called the Centurion where you climb up a tree on narrow steps, stand on a narrow plank, and jump forward to grasp a trapeze bar. When you've accomplished this you let go and fall into the net below, my take is just stay on the ground and have a metaphysical go at it. Any way, he is urged to take the climb and at the end of the day with fifteen minutes to spare he does climb the tree. "I began my slow ascent. It seemed like hours before I reached the top...I was petrified. I sat on the plank, stuck. I could not move. But the longer I sat on the plank, the calmer I became, and my resolve started to build. After at least ten minutes of stuckness, I got to my feet, walked briskly to the end of the plank, hesitated a few seconds and jumped."

He goes on to explain where other areas of life that had intimidated him, decisions and so forth, seemed less formidable. In our hesitancy, or just plain plopping down where we are there is time to become aware, to realize who we are and who the Father is. When we move on however that plays out, it is in faith, not in our selves, but in the Father and in His grace. It is a realization that He has all the time and patience in the world, he's here for the long run, for however long it takes to embrace us in His eternal goodness.

The other day a conflict arose in my life with another and I jumped up and stormed out of the banquet hall of the table of grace indignant. I was shouting inwardly "This is unfair, all I want to do is serve (deleted expletive)" After a while I noticed the Father standing there to as it were confront me, again not in the way we're accustomed, but to talk with me. He didn't really acknowledge the equity of the situation, or how strong was my case, He asked me to wait. Wait? Ok what's that going to do, waiting? "It's going to allow you to trust Me, to free you from taking matters into your own hands when they don't go to suit you" the Father spoke quietly like he would have to the elder brother. "It's going to free you to see other's unfairness as an opportunity to love, not conquer, to reprove and not injure them" He said.

The redemption of prodigals is our business here in the kingdom, to allow others, ourselves included to draw near, to stop being a connoisseur of other's failings. Of when they fail saying "Yep that's what a (fill in the blank kind of sinner)’ll do in that situation I knew it all along." in an expert manner. And finally of remembering that in out stroll through the rogue's gallery of human depravity there are mirrors generously placed through out for personal reflection on our grace supplied by the Father as well.
John

[john_r_jones]

"finally of remembering that in our(not out) stroll..."
John

[john_r_jones]

Fill in the blank spirituality, or how to workbook your way to heaven. Being unschooled in Christian thought much les hermeneutics I like many of us did bible studies as workbooks. We learned from a cobbled together string of scripture quoted to support an ideal. If we "got it" we'd be patted on the head and the indoctrination process continued.

We became addicted to quick fixes, slogans, and panaceas that required a rather sizeable shoehorn to fit life into. Much of the modern church gains its sense of spirituality in this way, nibbling and munching its way through life at a spiritual snack bar. I led a bible study one Sunday morning entitled "Have you been read by your bible lately?" Huh? Well we sojourned there for a time and there was much consternation in the land. The issue of context, historical settings, the fact that the Gospels are different in their textuality-three synoptic, one nominative, and ooooh the issue of discrepancies. Mostly though I asked them if they'd ever sat down and just allowed the Gospels just pour over them.

I also asked if they ever meditated on scripture, I'd been led to meditate on the story of the Centurion for two years. I also realized that parables have a parble-ic quality two thousand or so years later. They still mystify in some aspects, they still puzzle which for most is just rushed on by, the unanswered thought papered over with some man's doctrine. As I've been read by my Bible I've had pause to let the word do its work in me.

As a consequence of this process I feel like I'm in a detox center where my religious addiction gets flushed out of my system. In the vacuum of activity, enervation sets in while my catalogue of religious answers unravels. I get antsy, nervous, fidgety, but eventually clean. I remember hearing of the "washing of the water with the word" and we endeavored to do some brain-washing in that context, but it failed to give us as individuals a touch with reality.

I also remember someone telling me they wanted to reinvest themselves in reading through the Bible in a year's time. I think reading through scripture in an orderly fashion gives us discipline in sitting before something holy which is good, and certainly Christian, is it real though. I find plenty of folks who have the ability to cite the verses with their chapter addresses and use with facility the numbers and names of the books of the Bible in a very un-Christian manner. Somehow the meaning of the words hasn't taken residence in their hearts. They have become tokens of someone's rationale for their behavior, their illusions, and attachments. Ultimately their spirituality is as flimsy as the workbook they live out of.
John

[matt_hatter]

"I like many of us did bible studies as workbooks."

"I also asked if they ever meditated on scripture, I'd been led to meditate on the story of the Centurion for two years."

John, this is so right on! We grew up regurgitating the answer THEY wanted, truth, be danged! You comment on the centurian leads me once again to meditate on Jer.29: 11-13, a scripture that has been rolling around in my pea brain for a few weeks now. I will be driving down the interstate and say, "I GOT IT!!" And then in mock disappointment, but true excitement, I realize I haven't grasped it yet. How about that for a definition of meditation...do I pass??

Matt

[john_r_jones]

YES!
John

P.S. We need to plan to get together sometime soon.

[matt_hatter]

We will have to see if Miltie's treehouse is booked. We could have one of the greatests MLTS's EVER! No registration fees, just show your MCM/MSI/EN Former Cult Member Club Card (why leave home without it?) at the registration desk (Miltie's Still). Sit a spell...take your shoes off...drink from a mason jar...y'all come back now, heah?

Matt

[jesusisawesome]

Now THAT would be fun! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[miltietoast]

mdillon is coming to the miltietoast auxillary housing(log cabin on edge of bluff with 40 mile view and avg 15mph winds) after 4th of July with his lovely wife to depressurize. anybody else needing to depressurize?(oops you have to get permission from mdillon to stay same time) lodging is free- BYORR.Mason jars provided.
Cabin is between Crossville and Sparta on the edge of the Cumberland Plateau.20 miles south of I-40 Cookeville exit. Come on Matthatter bring your camera.

[matt_hatter]

Got a big fish fry planned for the 4th, but after the 4th....hmmmm...might be cool. Have them dad blamed revenooers found the good stuff yet???

[miltietoast]

Mattie-Weekend after 4th
Have them dad blamed revenooers found the good stuff yet???I am bidding on army surplus 400 gallon water tank mounted on trailer-no joke.
May make redneck barbecue grill or two person trailer out of it.I think a rick of hickory ought to get a far(fire) agoin.Or heck just fil er to the brim with far water.Or we could sell holy water.or?

[mdillon]

dang miltie its hard enough keeping my name disguised and now you're telling everybody where I'm going? what if Phil shows up? He'll want the master suite.

md

[miltietoast]

better to be a doorkeeper brother
you can carry his luggage
I bet he is a big tipper
sleeping outside on the deck is better except for resident mountain lion
I'd rather sleep with the lion than phil

[40days40years]

I am bidding on army surplus 400 gallon water tank mounted on trailer-no joke.
May make redneck barbecue grill or two person trailer out of it.

Miltie! NO, NO, NO - Were starting a new church here and your taking the portable babtism tub and trying to turn it into a barbecue? With thinking like that how are you gonna make leadership. Whatever you do keep that thing away from Mattie because he will turn it into a portable still or a portable bass fishery.

Get that thing cleaned up because according to Leo Lawson theology, Phil Bonasso must be rebaptized into that thing and I think the new Leo instructions say he must be held under for at least 7 minutes. At first I thought it was 5 minutes but there is something special about 7, it's in the bible some where.

[matt_hatter]

40 you are killin me, I am on the floor of this hotel room. My immediate thoughts were to combine my fishin and huntin together, get my granddaddy's trusty 1912 double barrel 12 gauge shotgun and blast those bass. Figure I won't even have to get the filet knife out, they will be ready for the hot grease!!!

I do agree that the number 7 is a significant spiritual number. Since Nasso is so into the hundred fold return thing, how about holding him under 70 times 7? Now I realize that is not quit 100, but being the natural skeptic, I gotta start somewhere!!

Matt

[miltietoast]

40days40years --Miltie! NO, NO, NO - Were starting a new church here and your taking the portable babtism tub and trying to turn it into a barbecue? With thinking like that how are you gonna make leadership. Whatever you do keep that thing away from Mattie because he will turn it into a portable still or a portable bass fishery.
Just found out it is made out of fiberglass, no self-respecting redneck would use fiberglass so I will DONATE it to your church for $500,000(I will have 500.00 in it)I need my 100 fold return because a laborer is worthy of his hire

do not do that to Nasso,he will have it done in Vegas and get his own TV show

[40days40years]

Robert Tilton will be the MC and main dunker in Vegas. Rice Broocks use to speak very highly of Robert Tilton 20 years a go so I am sure there are no problems there, except for that pesky Murrell fellow, he is such a party pooper. Nasso's old man (sin nature) is pretty tough like a teflon mummy, maybe we can get this thing to work if we fill up the baptism hot tub with bubble bath and dress up Nasso in one of those cupid angel outfits.

You know there is a computer game out there you can put on the PC. The main character is a baby angel cupid figure that looks like Phil I think his name is Bob? I am going to buy it the next time I go to Frys. Anyway this cute little angel is pure evil and the purpose of the game is to fly this angel around and use him to tempt other people to sin. The more corruption you can promote with this character the higher your score I believe. I'm not positive but I think that is the way the game works. NO joke it is an actual game.

[matt_hatter]

I am on my afternoon break and found that i have about an hour left on the tv gizmo. scanned the threads quickly and I stand amazed at the wisdom and insight that my buddies have on this board. Yeas, I am being serious for once and taking the bunny trail off in a different direction. I think I have learned more in the last two months about having that confident, 'comfortable' if you will, relationship with our saviour that I seemed to only have a glimpse of in dribs and drabs. It is reading the posts in here that has let me know that we don't have to be 'cookie cutter Christians' to have fellowship with one another. someone said on another thread how EN became a dry wasteland for the mature beliver who had heard it all. hat's what i like so much about my 'congregation' in here, always a surprise, a morsel, and many times a full meal to spiritually chew. I am not into pc lingo like 'diversity', but the word applies nicely to this bunch in here. I have said this before, but y'all are the sound of FREEDOM!!

Matt

[matt_hatter]

forgive the typos this thing stinks....you guys are smart enough to figure out what I said...if not pray for the interpretation. lol

[40days40years]

A-MEN Matt Hatter of course in the Methodist church as a boy it was aaahhhhhhhhhmen.

Miltie said: $500,000(I will have 500.00 in it)I need my 100 fold return because a laborer is worthy of his hire

Uhhhmmm, who do you think you are Bob Weiner? Last time I checked Miltie $500 into $500,000 is a thousand fold return not a hundred fold return. $49,999.99 for the babtism pool not a penny more.

[john_r_jones]

As as autodidact that means uneducated except by myself I've come to the realization at 50 that we get to unlearn as we get older. We are indeed in a world at war-spiritually, Jesus stepped into the middle of it and won. He lost the battle and won the war, Paul later wrote "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." I'm unlearning that I like to win skirmishes instead of overcoming the world system through love. I'm unlearning that getting my way isn't trusting in "Christ who strengthens me". I'm unlearning that tares and wheat grow together in God's agrarian economy because only He knows the secret of the spiritual biotechnology to genetically change tares to wheat. Or that in any case He is the Master Gardener who by His grace has over come the world. I'm only hopeful I have enough life left to do something with all the things I've unlearned.
John

[matt_hatter]

JRJ said: I'm only hopeful I have enough life left to do something with all the things I've unlearned.

John, this is so true. As I enjoy my 50th year, I have come to realize that I am no longer the Shell Answer Man and am so very comfortable with that 'revelation'. May HE bless you as we continue to unlearn and rest among the lantanna, vincas, and yes the weeds!!

We are waiting for Harvey the giant bunny to impart some wisdom...hmmm...with all the new threads, how about: "Jimmy Stewart, Harvey, and grandson of the bunny trail" No one will ever accuse you of going off topic....(BTW,I have recently read a bio on Jimmy Stewart's flying days in WWII by a local author named Starr Smith, who served with him--what a humble servant Stewart was!!)

Matt

[john_r_jones]

Brogadier General Jimmy Stewart flew airforce reserve missions along with his career as an actor. I know he was a bomber pilot possibly checked out in a B-52 or BUFF. His former residence is an unassuming house in Beverly Hills across the street from where Lucille Ball lived up behind the Beverly Hills Hotel.
John

[matt_hatter]

John, if you have read Band of Brothers, Jimmy Stewart was cut out of the same mold as Dick Winters. A man among men, a true leader in the sense of the word, and a sense of humility who was easily embarrased when accolades were poured on him. Always more comfortable propping the grunts up. They have both been great examples to me as men who have done things in secret, thus avoiding their public 'reward in full'.

Matt

[john_r_jones]

No I haven't, I've met men who flew with the Brigadier when I lived in California. As you say he shall get his reward for doing some rather self effacing and risky stuff in secret. Oddly enough a dilemma I'm in the throes of now, which I shan't divulge. Hugh Vantrese shared one time in a bible study about his Burma Road experience in War II. It made the hair stand up on your neck. Maranatha will be judged in the eternal balance wanting, in my mind because it didn't honor men like Hugh.
John

(Message edited by john r. jones on June 24, 2006)

[40days40years]

You can tell my mind is going because when you mentioned Jimmy Stewart for a second I thought you were talking about Jimmy Swaggart. My friend in Maranatha loved that guy, he was always standing on the stage holding a big bible and crying. Jimmy Swaggart that is but my friend had a big bible also just like Jimmy and carried it in a similar way.

[mdillon]

jrj- "Maranatha will be judged in the eternal balance wanting, in my mind because it didn't honor men like Hugh. "

could not agree more

md

[jesusisawesome]

John: "As as autodidact that means uneducated except by myself I've come to the realization at 50 that we get to unlearn as we get older . . ."

JIA: Excellent post, John. The older I get, the more I realize how little I really know. A mere speck of dust in a huge universe. And the older I get, the more Jesus shines . . . WOW! His love and beauty takes my breath away!!! His immense heart for man. We see in a mirror dimly now . . . someday we will see Him in all His glory. I wait for that day.

[matt_hatter]

Matt quoting Matt: "You comment on the centurian leads me once again to meditate on Jer.29: 11-13, a scripture that has been rolling around in my pea brain for a few weeks now. I will be driving down the interstate and say, "I GOT IT!!" And then in mock disappointment, but true excitement, I realize I haven't grasped it yet. How about that for a definition of meditation...do I pass??"

The Big Bunny's reply:
YES!
John

Well, here I sit on Sunday morning at 6 AM still reading Jer 29:11:

For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.

I began to think of our conversations on another thread, having to do with the insecurities one feels when leaving such an emotionally brutal regime such as EN. The very nerve that mere humans would think they have the power to pray down punishment from on high to those who dare use their feet and flee the immorality of wasteland religion.

Contemplate the intimacy of the words from Jeremiah. "I have plans for you"...that is as far as I get sometimes. What a wonderful feeling of security. Yet, it goes on: "plans for welfare and not calamity". This is our GOD speaking to us. It is not some naive wanna be theologian who boldly proclaims recipe religion as I read on another post:
"The only reason why someone does not receive God's blessing is because of their disobedience, their lack of serving, their sin."

I believe this is that circular arguement that Tik speaks of that so many Christians fall into. "If you don't do this, then watch out!!" MCM/EN was/is full of this dangerous thinking that basically puts man at the core of the universe. Bethel and Co: get over yourselves. There is a big world outside of your hermetically sealed bubble.

This whole concept seems to run contrary to what He is telling us through Jeremiah. He is in control. The verse ends with Him wanting to "give you a future and a hope". This is just awesome. It speaks to the personal relationship we have with Him. It is not those external frilly junky things that seem to permeate the Disneyland Church, (I am reminded of the Dwight Yoakam song, "Guitars, Cadillacs, and Hillbilly Music) but it is those intrinsic, eternal things that He wishes for us to start sharing in while we walk this earth!

Yes, I can be serious...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

Matt

[john_r_jones]

Jesus' appearing left us with not only the space to muse as you have because of the freedom of grace, He gave us the Holy Spirit as inspiration, to lead and guide us into all, as in ALL truth. As we express that revelation we give God glory. Everytime we receive from the Holy Spirit we illustrate the reality of peculiar statement Jesus made to His disciples that I find is a calling for us as well "It is good for you that I go." You each leave a heritage for others for it is also good for you in turn to go.
John...the Big Bunny? Please.

P.S. I scribbled down some thoughts on proboards today iffin yer interested.

P.S.S. my kids call me Thunder Bunny or TB for short, now that that's all over the world via internet my supposed status shall return to it's rightful state of ignobility.

(Message edited by john r. jones on June 25, 2006)

[matt_hatter]

John said: "John...the Big Bunny? Please."

Again, my gift of discernment needs a little fine tuning. Back to the Joe Smith School of Sorcery. Thunder Bunny it is. And as this thread is getting rather long, I am prophesying a new one: "Thunder Bunny Strikes Again". Do I get witness???

Matt

[forword]

Matt: For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.

FW: What an awesome scripture. I heard this quoted many times at Bethel, however, it was always in the context of finding your "destiny". I (EN, Bethel, your discipler) have plans for you and if you ever hope to reach your destiny then you must be connected to your spiritual family where God has placed you. The subtle implication was that if you left your "spiritual family", then you were in danger of calamity.....FW

[dust]

Hey, I just got "hootah'd by jbkrems on of the many countless tithing threads...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[matt_hatter]

Forward, isn't it great to be able to look at the scriptures from a whole different light? I do confess that it has taken me years to read certain scriptures because of the pollution/teaching that infected so many of us. Thank God for HIS plan for our lives!

Dust, I've been having a little fun over there myself lol.

Matt

[matt_hatter]

Miltie said: lodging is free- BYORR.Mason jars provided.

For those who are barley and hops challenged, that would be, "bring your own Rolling Rock". As one who's dear old dad grew up in the greater Pittsburgh area, I can attest that Miltie does have good taste in this golden pilsner from Latrobe, PA. If only he didn't drink it like Dasani.

[jesusisawesome]

Matt: For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.

I began to think of our conversations on another thread, having to do with the insecurities one feels when leaving such an emotionally brutal regime such as EN. The very nerve that mere humans would think they have the power to pray down punishment from on high to those who dare use their feet and flee the immorality of wasteland religion.

JIA: Love your post, Matt. Jesus didn't die on the cross in vain. The immensity and the vastness of God's love . . . nothing can separate us from the love of Christ!

John, I like "Thunder Bunny"! Why you don't use it here?! Heheh. Did you ever see that show on TV about the giant killer bunny rabbits? It was supposed to be a thriller, but to me it was a comedy.