EVERY NATION FINANCES PT 3

[aletheia (aletheia)]

This is the continuation of financial discussions regarding MSI/EN.

Financial topics were also previously covered on these threads:

. "How Much Are These Guys Making?"
. "Every Nation Productions - Who Profits?" under the topic "Bringing allegations to senior leadership of church"

Ulyankee's timeline has accurate financial information on the thread:
"History of Maranatha & Every Nation (formerly Morning Star International)"

Most recently, there is a financial discussion on the 2 Tony Fetchel threads.

[aletheia (aletheia)]

One way that several Christian ministries prove their integrity is becoming a member of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. On ECFA's website is the following list for your info.:

**************************************
Seven Standards of Responsible Stewardship


Standard 1 - Doctrinal Statement:

Every member organization shall subscribe to a written statement of faith clearly affirming its commitment to the evangelical Christian faith and shall conduct its financial and other operations in a manner which reflects those generally accepted biblical truths and practices.


Standard 2 - Board of Directors and Audit Committee:

Every member organization shall be governed by a responsible board of not less than five individuals, a majority of whom shall be independent, which shall meet at least semiannually to establish policy and review its accomplishments. The board or a committee consisting of a majority of independent members shall review the annual audit and maintain direct communication between the board and the independent certified public accountants.


Standard 3 - Audited Financial Statements:

Every member organization shall obtain an annual audit performed by an independent certified public accounting firm in accordance with auditing standards generally accepted in the United States of America (GAAS) with financial statements prepared in accordance with accounting principles accepted in the United States of America (GAAP).


Standard 4 - Use of Resources:

Every member organization shall exercise the management and financial controls necessary to provide reasonable assurance that all resources are used (nationally and internationally) in conformity with applicable federal and state laws and regulations to accomplish the exempt purposes for which they are intended.


Standard 5 - Financial Disclosure:

Every member organization shall provide a copy of its current audited financial statements upon written request and provide other disclosures as the law may require. An organization must provide a report, on request, including financial information, on the specified project for which it is soliciting gifts.


Standard 6 - Conflicts of Interest:

Every member organization shall avoid conflicts of interest. Transactions with related parties may be undertaken only if all of the following are observed: 1) a material transaction is fully disclosed in the audited financial statements of the organization; 2) the related party is excluded from the discussion and approval of such transaction; 3) a competitive bid or comparable valuation exists; and 4) the organization's board has acted upon and demonstrated that the transaction is in the best interest of the member organization.


Standard 7 - Fund-Raising:

Every member organization shall comply with each of the ECFA Standards for fund-raising:

7.1 Truthfulness in Communication:
All representations of fact, description of financial condition of the organization, or narrative about events must be current, complete, and accurate. References to past activities or events must be appropriately dated. There must be no material omissions or exaggerations of fact or use of misleading photographs or any other communication which would tend to create a false impression or misunderstanding.

7.2 Communication and Donor Expectations:
Fund-raising appeals must not create unrealistic donor expectations of what a donor's gift will actually accomplish within the limits of the organization's ministry.


7.3 Communication and Donor Intent:
All statements made by the organization in its fund-raising appeals about the use of the gift must be honored by the organization. The donor's intent is related both to what was communicated in the appeal and to any donor instructions accompanying the gift. The organization should be aware that communications made in fund-raising appeals may create a legally binding restriction.

7.4 Projects Unrelated to a Ministry's Primary Purpose:
An organization raising or receiving funds for programs that are not part of its present or prospective ministry, but are proper in accordance with its exempt purpose, must either treat them as restricted funds and channel them through an organization that can carry out the donor's intent, or return the funds to the donor.

7.5 Incentives and Premiums:
Organizations making fund-raising appeals which, in exchange for a contribution, offer premiums or incentives (the value of which is not insubstantial, but which is significant in relation to the amount of the donation) must advise the donor of the fair market value of the premium or incentive and that the value is not deductible for tax purposes.

7.6 Financial Advice:
The representative of the organization, when dealing with persons regarding commitments on major estate assets, must seek to guide and advise donors so they have adequately considered the broad interests of the family and the various ministries they are currently supporting before they make final decisions. Donors should be encouraged to use the services of their attorneys, accountants, or other professional advisors.

7.7 Percentage Compensation for Fund-raisers:
Compensation of outside fund-raising consultants or an organization's own employees based directly or indirectly on a percentage of charitable contributions raised is not allowed.

7.8 Tax-deductible Gifts for a Named Recipient's Personal Benefit:
Tax-deductible gifts may not be used to pass money or benefits to any named individual for personal use.

7.9 Conflict of Interest on Royalties:
An officer, director, or other principal of the organization must not receive royalties for any product that the organization uses for fund-raising or promotional purposes.

7.10 Acknowledgement of Gifts-in-Kind:
Property or gifts-in-kind received by an organization should be acknowledged describing the property or gift accurately without a statement of the gift's market value. It is the responsibility of the donor to determine the fair market value of the property for tax purposes. The organization may be required to provide additional information for gifts of motor vehicles, boats, and airplanes.

7.11 Acting in the Interest of the Donor:
An organization must make every effort to avoid accepting a gift from or entering into a contract with a prospective donor which would knowingly place a hardship on the donor, or place the donor's future well-being in jeopardy.


Copyright © 2003-2005 ECFA
Evangelical Council For Financial Accountability

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

aletheia, I think both of us have indicated that membership in the ECFA or a similar financial accountability council independent of EN would be a good move on EN's part. It seems that EN leadership may have considered the discussions regarding the Trinity and its Statement of Faith, in that its Statement of Faith now espouses the Trinity and no longer allows for modalism. Perhaps they might consider this suggestion as well, especially in light of what may or may not have happened with regards to the Los Angeles administrative leadership?

An accounting of World Partners funds especially would be helpful, imho.

blessings,
ulyankee

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Alethia, I believe regular MSI/EN members whether they are in leadership or not, are either too afraid/embarass to ask for an accounting. And some are too Psyche into believing that everything is perfect in MSI/EN financially. Some Rationalizing that there is nothing wrong with MSI/EN finances and to question them is lack of faith. They rather choose to live in deception blocking anything thats is negative. It does not matter if you have evidence right in front of you.
These things are a matter of choices. Most EN members chose to deceived themselves. Its a fantasyland they rather live in.

It also does not matter if Phil Bonasso got kick out due to this. And millions of dollars were lost.

Currently I am already betting that MSI/EN leadership will tell the members that Phil Bonasso left because he has to minister to his family or something to that degree.MSI/EN will never say its due to misuse of finances amounting to millions.

While I was in EN , the Spirit of deception is very strong in there. I remember I had to psyche myself all the time that everything is perfect. Even though everything inside me say something is wrong.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Here is Phil Bonasso asking for CASH only donation. I have a CD of this. I believe LCC still sells them, this is Rick Shelton's church.
One of the evidence that I do not want to post in the past because he is still in leadership.

_________________

Phil Bonasso
May 22, 2005
World Partner appeal

[light piano accompaniment in background]

Thank you. Alright. Come on in. Alright, thank you so much, you are so kind. Praise the Lord. Good morning everybody.

We are so thrilled about our World Partner program and what the Lord is doing in our church planting around the world. And, as Pastor XXXX said, it’s always a joy for me to come and report to you and remind you that this morning you are part of a worldwide spiritual family, amen? And you know the greatest burden we have as a people is to fulfill the Great Commission. How many of you know Jesus said, “Go into all the earth and make disciples,” amen? That’s a command, is it not? This is the real great purpose of the church, in its manifold purposes, no more greater purpose than to reach the lost, halleluia. And to reach the nations, and to… and our great passion, is through many different ways, but primarily to fulfill the Great Commission by planting churches, by planting churches in these nations, spiritual family, amen? So every year we have our special Missions Sunday, which we call World Partners Sunday, and this is where we ask, Pastor Rice, and Pastor Steve and myself, our great hope is that every member of our churches, here especially in North America, would be willing to be a monthly partner with us. And I know probably, most everybody in here has seen Star Wars already, probably by the time we got here. How many have seen Star Wars already?… well, not… most… some of you won’t raise your hand, but we know we saw you there. Pastor XXXX and I saw you at the theatre. [laughter] And all we’re asking, I think that the price of a movie ticket is now almost ten dollars, or something like that, and our hope is that for maybe twenty dollars a month, if we’d all participate, we can fulfill this Great Commission. And so this is our great hope, is that everyone can become a World Partner in this spiritual family. At that amount, just that amount, will help us do so much. And so in just a moment I’m going to just pray and ask that the Lord would move on your hearts and create in you an expectation that you can be part of the Great Commission.

You know, how many of you saw in our video this morning that there’s church planting going on in parts of the world, sometimes you didn’t know they existed, do you know that? Some areas of the world, and places where churches are being planted in Southeast Asia, and different situations. And you may never, you may say, “Pastor Phil, I’ll help with the Great Commission, but I may never get out there on the mission field. I may never get to Sri Lanka or Myanmar or these different places of the world.” But I want you to know, if you’re a financial partner with us, a World Partner, that your financial gift is just as important as the missionary on the field. Your financial gift plays a critical part in planting churches in these remote areas of the world, can you say amen this morning? You are a critical part of this mission to reach every nation. And I just want to highlight a couple of things before we pray this morning, and you saw some of the church plants that were coming up. Probably one of the most important one that’s taking place this year is in the nation of India. We’ve got a team that’s already on the ground and that outreach begins in July of this year. And India is rapidly becoming, they’re just behind China, as the most populous nation in the world. So this is one of the most exciting church plants that we have happening this year. We’ve been praying about the nation of India, that there’s so much involved when it goes into it, that we’ve got such a wonderful team that’s already on the ground, and this July the outreach begins there, so that’s exciting, amen? The nation of India. We’re also planting in Turkey. This is a Muslim nation, and we have a team going there that’s being led by one of our Filipino pastors who for many, many years was a missionary to the Muslim world. He’s an expert in reaching Muslims, so we are thrilled that Pastor XXXX is leading our church planting team to the nation of Turkey where we’re going to continue to reach the Muslim world, halleluia, isn’t that exciting! Now, talking about the Muslim world I’m always excited to bring you an update about our churches in the Middle East. You know, we say to ourselves, you know, in this hour of all the war on terror and everything we hear, I want you to know, Muslims are getting saved every day in the nation of Iran. They are hearing the Gospel and they are being saved. We’ve got two churches now in Iran and one was started, birthed out of fifty born-again Shiite Muslims that now love God, and that church has planted another church to the nation of Iran, and they write us and they tell us, we are turning the Persian Gulf into a giant baptismal for the Lord Jesus Christ. [applause, music swells] That’s exciting, isn’t it?

I think my favorite testimony that I think is so exciting is what God is doing in Thailand. Thailand is like 98% Buddhist, Thailand is, and we started a work over there, just a Bible study, I know our video said we have a church there and we’re calling it that, because we’ve got over three hundred people, primarily Buddhists, that are now attending our weekly Sunday Bible study over there, and so a church is breaking out there in Thailand. And probably the most exciting thing about this church is that we’ve got about fifteen Buddhist monks that are coming to church with us. Now these are the guys with the shaved head and the orange sheet that they walk around in all the time, you know, the Hare Krishna looking people. Six of them have been born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, and baptized, in the nation of Thailand. [applause] That’s just amazing, isn’t it? Glory to God.

And I want you to know this morning, I’m going to say a little more about this in just a moment, that all the world is hungry for the Gospel. You know, the devil just has us convinced that nobody wants to listen, nobody wants to listen, but that is not true. And when you’re part of this with us, when you’re part of these churches in Iran, when you’re a World Partner, you’re part of reaching the Buddhist monks of the nation of Thailand. You say, “Pastor, I may never go there,” that’s ok, you as equally as important as our missionaries on the ground there. So I just want to appeal and encourage you this morning, if you could join with us, as a monthly partner, and if you could take your envelopes out, if you have one there, and look at that with me, we’re going to ask you to do two things this morning, we do this once a year in all our churches, is to maybe give a special cash offering that can sort of give us a boost in our mission arm, I know, I’m the Pastor Phil, I’m the one that oversees all the corporate operations in the world, and I know the church planters are lining up, hoping that there’s going to be resources to help them this summer. And so if you could consider a cash gift this morning that would push us forward, that would give us a boost, and would you also consider there in the second part of your envelope, section number 2, would you also consider being a monthly partner with us, maybe at twenty dollars a month, maybe you can’t do quite that much, but for twenty dollars, maybe the price of two movies, you can help us reach the world, amen?

Will you pray with me for just a moment. Father, we thank you for the Great Commission, halleluia. Lord, I’m so thankful to be part of a church movement that’s planting churches and reaching the world, and going into areas of the world that seem unthinkable to go in and begin to church plant. And Lord, I thank you, and I’m asking you Father, in this coming summer, to bless every plant, in India and Turkey and Scotland, Father, in Sydney, Father, every major church plant, we’re praying and interceding right now, that you would cause and bring revival to these nations. And Father, show each and every one of us now how we can play a part in this. Lord, I’m asking that we would consider, Father, a special seed offering this morning into these church plants, and that we could also become a monthly partner, in Jesus’ mighty name we pray, amen and amen, halleluia, glory to God. If you can fill that out and fill your name out and thank you so much, I want to thank you so much, for your support and your help in all these wonderful church plants, amen? Glory to God, can you give the Lord a hand clap this morning? [clapping] Isn’t this exciting? Praise God. It’s just too exciting, what God is doing.

And I said a moment ago that all over the world people are hungry for the Gospel. [To pianist] That’s good, my brother, I really appreciate that, that’s beautiful. I’m going to start preaching now. I’ll bring you back up if things aren’t going good. [laughter] Glory to God.

(Message edited by ginger1 on October 18, 2005)

[aletheia (aletheia)]

Ginger - thanks so much for posting all the info. above, especially transcribing Phil Bonasso's fundraising talk from the CD. I thank God for your courage and tenacity!

Sister a.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Alethia, I have a few more. But I am just waiting for the right timing. Right now, its not.

[standfast (standfast)]

Ginger,

For clarification, could you post the emails you sent to xxxx? It might help us understand his responses.

Thanks

(Message edited by standfast on October 18, 2005)

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Standfast, I do not want to post what I emailed him for personal reason, BUT I can email it to you if you want. My email address is anniegrey@msn.com
On the subject line just write standfast then i will email you what I wrote to him.

[truthseeker180359 (truthseeker180359)]

Hi Everyone

I am as keen as anyone to see that there is accountability for the finances in Every Nation and World Partners, but I consider the posting by Ginger1 to be completely irresponsible. It may have had the intention of drawing negative attention to the World Partners fund or to the MPD program, but in reality it potentially endangers lives. Perhaps ginger needs to understand that Christians working in Muslim nations literally risk their lives for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is standard practice in any responsible Christian organization that sends missionaries to "hostile" nations to ensure that all information concerning them and their mission remains as far as possible "under the radar". And that certainly does NOT include posting their names on the internet!!

People who have never left the comfort of their Christian culture have no idea what it is like on the front line. How easy to score a quick point while being shielded from the potential of REAL persecution! Did the person mentioned know that ginger was going to publish his correspondence for all the world to see or did he trustingly believe that she was making a genuine enquiry about his support and wellbeing? Did he know that ginger was going to reveal his name? From the way this information was used, it certainly looks like some deception was practiced here.

I am all in favor of freedom of speech and expression, but like all freedoms, they need to be exercised in a responsible manner. I appeal to whoever is running the site to delete all references of gingers on this matter - or at the very least blank out the names. No matter how aggrieved people feel with EN or their financial management, it is shocking to think that anyone would be willing to put the lives of genuine soldiers of Christ at risk.

[formermaranathapastor (formermaranathapastor)]

It is interesting to see how pro-EN people use their subterfuge and little control games to try to silence the truth about their ministry. Truthseeker-- your pale attempts to make Ginger out the wrongdoer will not fly here. It is the leadership of EN that has lied and deceived. Do you really think that this Board is important enough to be read by gov't leaders from Moslem nations to find out who the missionaires are in their countries. How preposterous.
Answer the issue. This is a longstanding financial abuse that has occured from maranatha up to the present day. It is the leadership announcing one thing from the pulpit about where $ is going, and then we find out that the $ was used for another purpose.
This is lying and stealing from the congregation.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

truthseeker180359 , This is TURKEY. In this nation, there is freedom to practice christianity.THIS IS NOT A HOSTILE NATION. This is NOT IRan, Iraq or any nation that persecute christians.There are a few muslim nation that does not persecute christian like EGYPT and Monacco.

(Message edited by ginger1 on October 18, 2005)

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

formermaranathapastor , thank you.

This is not the issue of I posting the name and who, this is an issue of deliberate FRAUD and SCAM.

TruthSeeker, if you want to send your money to XXXXX as support that would be great ! I posted his info for all to see that his name was USED and HE is NOT receiving any World partner MONEY.

So if any EN member wants to support XXXXX that would be even better ! This place is a great place to advertise him.And thats what he needed it.

(Message edited by ginger1 on November 14, 2005)

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Turkey is one of the Muslim nation that has a strong stand on separation of church and state. This is their law. This nation literally hunt down muslim extremist. They do have police who literally watch for Muslim extremist. They are NOT allowed to infiltrate the goverment. It is one of the most free muslim nation, other than Egypt and Morrocco.
Unlike Saudi Arabia, they do have freedom of religion but they are NOT ALLOWED to convert a muslim, its against the law. So when the filipino missionaries go to Saudi Arabia, most of the converts are Filipinos.

[truthseeker180359 (truthseeker180359)]

It is sad to see the distortion of priorities here. No one (certainly not I) is trying to block out people seeking financial accountability, which is certainly something that is of vital importance. I am not pro EN, but I am certainly pro truth and fairness - hence my nametag. I still contend that to expose people to potential harm in the process of trying to expose EN's financial dealings is totally irresponsible. Missionaries to this nation are certainly not helped by having their names identified on the internet. Again - did anyone ask this man if he agreed that the Factnet site on Religious cults was - to quote ginger - "a great place to advertise him"? Did he know that his personal email would be posted on this site when he wrote it? It is so comfortable and convenient to declare that there is no risk to him and that you are somehow doing him a favor without any risk to yourself. It seems that the accusation of deception is a two-edged sword here!

[standfast (standfast)]

I am with truthseeker on this one.

I am bothered that the pastor at issue was mislead and that his (presumably to him) private email was published on a discussion board after being obtained under false pretenses, but I am more concerned about exposing a missionary to a foreign land like this. Yes, I know the government in Turkey is (for now) secular, but there are many Islamists in Turkey who do not agree with the government and in fact would love to overthrow it and impose Islamic law. It was not too long ago that the Turks murdered well over a million Christian Armenians.

Frankly, I do not know what the threat level is, but that is a question for the pastor and his family, not Ginger, to assess.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

I have put an XXXX on the Pastor's name.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Here is another fraudulent activity by Phil Bonasso / Palos Verdez church.

Last year, Phil told Fred Bradford that he wanted to bless his wife Karen Bonasso a Mercedez covertible or a BMW Convertible. And told Fred Bradford to go RAISE SOME MONEY FOR A CHRISTMAS GIFT FOR KAREN BONASSO'S CONVERTIBLE.

So Fred Bradford called up churches and individuals raising money for that convertible.
I was told that the POLUS Church gave $1000.00

Currently Karen is Driving that Convertible, I don't know if its a BMW or a Mercedez convertible though.

You can confirm that with Fred Bradford or the Polus church.
What Phil just did is illegal, IRS law was broken. Its called inurement !

[standfast (standfast)]

RO,

I do not know how accurate Ginger's information is and therefore cannot really comment on it. If what she is saying has some truth to it, it sounds like other EN leaders are doing the right thing in reviewing the books and making choices about responsibility. I would be encouraged by the investigation and decision but discouraged that it escaped oversight for however long it may have.

As for Ginger "courageously" outing a Christian missionary to a Muslim nation, listing his personal emails (and email address) by using false pretenses to solicit information, I do not commend her for her tactics in the least. It is not a side issue that Ginger has admittedly decieved an admittedly honest pastor to further her agenda. That is immoral and the ends do not justify the means.

Recentlyout, do you believe it is moral to be dishonest to an honest pastor to obtain information you think will portray another pastor in a bad light?

As for her "evidence," the call for support by Mr. Bonasso does not promise that the cash donation would go to the pastor at issue. In fact, Mr. Bonasso mentioned plants in Thailand, Scotland, Syndey, India, and Turkey. He was clearly giving the audience an idea of what EN is doing in the world, not saying that the cash would go directly to those efforts. Specifically, what he said the cash gift would go to was "give us a boost in our mission arm." He also refers to other church planters wanting to "line up." I heard a similar appeal in 2003 and did not take his examples to mean that the money was going specifically to those examples. To be clear, I do not vouch for the cash gift's proper use, but the fact that it did not go to the examples mentioned is not evidence of improper use.

So I think that Ginger decieved an honest man to get information that does not really prove her point.

[standfast (standfast)]

"I have put an XXXX on the Pastor's name."

I would encourage you to check all of your posts and do the same, you mentioned him several times in other posts. I had to xxxx one of my own posts on the issue.

Also, how about his references to himself in his emails themselves and his account number?

Thanks

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

I check and put XXXX on some more of them. I did not realized his name was mentioned a lot more. Anyway, I have put the XXXX on his account number too.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Standfast, thank you for your opinion, which I expected it. Unfortunately, not all MSI/EN pastors will agree with you.
Anyway, I am not willing to post one of the Nation , I was told IS NOT RECEIVING ANY MONEY from World partner. not just yet. The time is not right yet.

Also I was told that One of the elders in Palos Verdez did acknowledge that NOBODY is getting any money from World Partner. This just happened today.
I believe that since Phil Bonasso is gone, everybody is transparent over there now.
There are a lot of illegal activity that Phil did. But I am not going to post it just yet.

[standfast (standfast)]

Ginger,

Like I said, I'm not vouching at all for how or even whether World Partner money was spent correctly. I am not in a position to know. I was only speaking to the "evidence" presented in this thread.

I appreciate you removing the name at issue.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Oldguy,
its true. A lot of the top leaders knew of illegal activities going on to a degree. But some are intimidated and some does not want to lose their job, some just were trained to kiss up and shut up. The only two top leaders that are clueless is Steve Murrell and Garry Senna. Tom and Dana were told to shut up and NOT to tell anyone. When they refused, they got fired and slandered to Rice and Steve Murrell.There are associate pastors who have the conscience just quit.

[oldguy (oldguy)]

Ginger - Is it true there is a whistleblower?

[truthseeker180359 (truthseeker180359)]

Thank you Ginger for the XXXXX!

[formermaranathapastor (formermaranathapastor)]

The process Ginger describes above has happened for over 25 years, first in Maranatha, then in MSI and now EN. Someone would go to the leadership citing mismanagement, or corruption, or legalism, and they would be listened to to make them feel like someone cared, and then they would be told they needed "ministry". Perhaps a demon of rebellion cast out or more discipleship or some stronger oversight. Then if the person was offended and left, the other leaders would be told that person was rebellious, or in sin, or bitter, or any number of things. But the last thing they would think is there is something wrong with our system, or doctrine, or control, or ministry.
This has continued for 25 years. How much longer will it go on before the people wake up?

[truthseeker180359 (truthseeker180359)]

On reflection, I would still appeal to ginger to remove the posting. I strongly doubt that the author of the letter wrote with the expectation that his email would be posted on this site. He wrote it in good faith to answer a question that he probably presumed was full of concern for his well being. As "steadfast" accurately points out, the evidence presented does not prove the point ginger is trying to make in any event. And even with the name XXXXXd out, the posting still gives the name of the nation concerned and it is directly linked to EN/MSI through this site. It is not diffucult to put 2 + 2 together.

Again - make no mistake about the level of threat and danger that any missionary to a Moslem nation is exposed to. There is over a thousand years of conflict of Islam vs Christianity in this region. And please do not be naïve to think that secular humanism is any more pro-Christianity than Islam!

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

OldGuy, there are several whistleblower. BUT because those top leaders protect each other, those whistleblower are either leaving or have left. I do know that federal authorities were contacted, IRS,FBI and the US attorney. But I have heard nothing after that.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

OldGuy, there are several whistleblower. Some still in EN, some left and some have contacted the federal authorities IRS, FBI and the US attorney. But I heard nothing after that. Thats how bad the corruption in MSI/EN.

I am still hoping changes will come. Even if Phil left, how about Mark Foster and Bill Lloyd, both of them cover up Phil Bonasso misuse of funds ? They are still in there.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

I do know a few Senior pastors have the courage now to speak up. Now that Phil is gone. My question is how much change are they (MSI/EN) willing to change ?

[oldguy (oldguy)]

Ginger - has Phil left or is he leaving? I can't tell from your posts if he has stepped down, left EN or what. Can you be more specific?

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Yea, he is out. Its official tonight wednesday, The church leaders are going to announce it tonight.

[oldguy (oldguy)]

WOW! Is this because of finances? What about the other guys you mentioned?

[ageeh (ageeh)]

If there'll be news reports on media, guys please inform me. It will be of great help to some of us.

Ageeh!

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Oldguy, yea, I still think its because of the finances. Steve Murrell and Garry Senna ask Phil for financial disclosure. Phil has no choice but to take it to Nashville, after that, I was told he is OUT! He was not told that he is on sabbatical like Leo lawson or Greg ball, The word is, He is OUT !! not coming back !
So figured its has to be the finances , or else why would those church leaders nervous when Phil left for Nashville ? Plus I was told he took the payroll with him, who are getting paid with big $$$$$$$. It look like Phil never came back to the church after that.

Now, a lot of people in Palos Verdez church saying that the World Partner money is going nowhere.
I have given the building evidence to a friend and this was supposedly was to give to Fred Bradford, since he has no clue what Phil did.
I do not know what will happen to Mark Foster and Bill lloyd, since they help the cover up. I am still waiting for a word about those two. SO far nothing. I guess its still pretty early.

I know there are a few people who will demanding that the church leaders do something. If not, most probably more people would leave.

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

For anyone who would like to see the Divorce agreement of Ron Lewis, it is a matter of public record. To view it, do the following:

Go to http://web.co.wake.nc.us/rdeeds/default.htm

On the left side of the page, about 2/3’s of the way down, click on the
‘Server 1’ link under ‘Real Estate’

There are a lot of boxes to fill in on this search page. You only need to worry about a few of them, though. Fill out the following:

Fourth box down is ‘Grantor’ Enter exactly as below:
Lewis Ronald Alan

Next Box is ‘Grantor Type’, make it Individual

Click on Search

This will take you to his agreement. Click on the (X) under Document Image to read it.

Some interesting items from the agreement:
Ron pays $3000 per month in alimony from 10/2002 – 9/2003, $2500 per month until
9/2004, $2000 per month until 9/2005 and $500 per month until 9/2007.

Child support of $1880 per month until 6/2003 and $1500 per month until 6/2005.

In just alimony and child support, he was paying $4880 per month at the beginning of this separation. Add in the Mercedes 430CLK payment and the new home he bought, that is a large sum of money, somewhere in the range of $7000+ per month just for these items. To clear $7000/month, one has to gross in the vicinity of $125,000 a year. $125,000 a year for just the above items.

This does not take into account his lifestyle, suits, travel, food, golf, investments, etc… Well, I guess he really does not spend money on travel, though, as EVERY trip he makes has “church business” implications so the church pays his way. Must be nice to be able to commute back and forth between NC and NYC on the backs of others money. He must have learned well from the leaders at Enron and Worldcom.

WOW!!! What kind of $$ does this ‘man of God’ make??? I hope his conscience is such that he makes sure the less financially fortunate in his church are looked after and are not hounded for their meager funds to support his lifestyle.

PLEASE NOTE: There is a provision for Ron to be able to ask that this document be removed from the public records, should he feel the need to do so. My advice would be to print it out to preserve it.

For those that want to look up his property, you can do the search at the beginning of this page with a few changes and find out about his property investments.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

ginger1 or anyone else,

Does anyone have an update on exactly what was announced on Wednesday? I have heard conflicting reports so if anyone could **verify** one way or another what is going on I'd appreciate it.

Also, is there any word on the membership of the IAT and/or whether the governmental structure of EN is changing? The most recent IAT (aka ILT) list can be found here: http://churches.everynation.org/default_churches.asp?nc=4714&id=452

I've been out of town and away from my computer for most of the week so I'm just now catching up. Thanks!

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on October 21, 2005)

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Ibuprofen, that is not the worse part yet. if you heard him preach, he gave a date when he started dating is second wife. At that time, HE WAS STILL MARRIED AND SEPARATED FROM HIS FIRST WIFE !!! Yet nobody in the entire EN leadership ever reprimand him for adultery. He was even "promoted" in EN. He did not even wait till he got a divorce when he started dating his second wife.
He even waited exactly one year and a day from his divorce to marry his second wife.

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

ginger1,

For the record, I am not nor have I ever been a member of this 'church'.
I can't really get into the specifics, but I had a negative 'run-in' with Ron Lewis earlier this year that amazed me(not in a good way). I could not believe the total lack of integrity displayed by this 'man of God'. I found out about the 'reputation' of his 'church' totally by chance. I am absolutely amazed at how someone such as Ron Lewis can portray himself as 'holy'. I guess that is what a seared conscience will do for you.

Given the narcissistic and misogynistic policies and practices of the 'upper echelon' of this group, I am not at all surprised about what you share regarding his first and second marriage and the timing of things. One wonders what stance the 'church' would take given the same set of circumstances for a rank and file member...

How did he 'justify' his divorce for 'public consumption'?

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Easy, the members of his church started to spread rumors that his first wife either
1. Had an affair.
2. had problems with christianity.

Both are not true.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Ulyankee,
I had to double check my sources. OK , Phil is OUT of the EN leadership. And OUT of Palos Verdez church. BUT he "might" join another EN church in another state. Like Tony Fetchel. And most probably, Phil "might" move back to florida where he is originally from.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

ibuprofen,

I can't really comment on the divorce issue... to be honest, I had come across the same publicly available information as you had but did not post the link here out of respect for the wife he put away and for his children.

However, he has also made some, er, misleading remarks (http://blogs.salon.com/0003494/2005/09/01.html) about his church's history to none other than Stephen Mansfield, and fairly recently too.

The TRUTH was that in February, 1989, months prior to the official Maranatha breakup, a parallel organization, Maranatha Campus Ministries International, Inc. (http://www.sunbiz.org/scripts/cordet.exe?a1=DETFIL&n1=N30458&n2=NAMFWD&n3=0000&n 4=N&r1=&r2=&r3=&r4=MARANATHACAMPUSMINISTRIES&r5=) was incorporated without Bob Weiner. This organization later changed its name (in Florida only) to Campus Ministries International, Inc., and a Maranatha newsletter put out in Spring 1990 announcing the new name clearly state that this was a name change, NOT a new organization and NOT a "breakup." (There actually were two stories told by MCM at this time - one was a breakup as told to the press and as announced in a November 1989 Table Talk newsletter, the other was a name change as told the rank and file in the Spring 1990 newsletter, though the breakup story was the one that stuck. There are elements of truth and fiction in both versions, however.)

Certificates of Authority for this "new" MCM entity were filed in several states, including North Carolina (http://www.secretary.state.nc.us/corporations/Corp.aspx?PitemId=4868567). Ron Lewis was the registered agent of the North Carolina entity, and this entity remains active even today under the Maranatha name. He did change the name of Maranatha Christian Church of the Triangle as did several other former Maranatha churches including South Bay (now Every Nation Palos Verdes), Washington DC (now Metro MorningStar), Boston MA (now Beacon City Church) and several others. That may have saved some money, as Lewis stated to Mansfield. However, registering a **brand new organization** under the Maranatha name (which is what Lewis is clearly referring to in his statement to Mansfield) did not save any money at least in corporate filing fees as opposed to a simple name change of an existing corporation. However, just as Victory Clubs of America (http://www.tennesseeanytime.org/soscorp/results.jsp;jsessionid=aJLZ3Xk9T-0_) has just been dissolved, I would guess that there were some other unknown benefits in dissolving the legal entity that was Maranatha Christian Church(es) Inc. (http://apps.sos.ky.gov/business/obdb/(qycbz045q3j2hryin4lvkzuk)/showentity.aspx?id=0033579&ct=09&cs=99998) as opposed to changing its name, or else it would have been a lot simpler to change its name too...

All this would be old history if it hadn't been brought up fairly recently with regards to the Alpha Iota Omega lawsuit and its connection to Ron Lewis' church (http://www.rickross.com/reference/maranatha/maranatha13.html). Lewis states that he left Maranatha in the late 1980s because of unhealthy practices but this is not the case. Maranatha dissolved in 1990 and the corporate record shows that Lewis and his church were a part of Maranatha until May 1990 (so until the breakup), at which time the local church's corporate charter (http://www.secretary.state.nc.us/corporations/Filings.aspx?PItemId=4925660) was amended. The facts as backed up by publicly available corporate filings are here (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/10342.html?1126198151).

And I haven't even gotten to KPIC's (http://web.archive.org/web/20011104195730/www.kpic.org/boston/) 2001 "church plant" (http://web.archive.org/web/20011029115856/www.morningstar2010.com/directory/usa/boston_01.htm) in Boston that was really not a church plant at all but was a renamed Maranatha church (http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/corp/corpsearch/CorpSearchSummary.asp?ReadFromDB=True&UpdateAllowe d=&FEIN=000115395).

(Message edited by ulyankee on October 21, 2005)

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Truthseeker, I have removed the emails from the pastor.

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

ulyankee,

I understand your sentiment regarding his children and former wife and respect it, although I obviously do not agree with it. I guess I might feel differently if I knew them, but I don't. My thoughts are that this is public information and based on what I know about Ron Lewis, I think that people should know. With just this small amount of info, it is not hard to extrapolate a minimum salary for Mr. Lewis. I mention a figure of $125,000.00, but this is nowhere high enough. The $125k is basicaly what he needs to earn to meet these known obligations. The fact is that he was able to obtain multiple new mortgages (also public record). Mortgage companies do NOT give mortgages to people that have 100% of their income obligated. You start approaching high risk mortgages when one's obligation/income ratio is at 50% or so. Let's say this is the situation Ron Lewis found himself in. Heck, that would put his income north of $200,000.00/year. Personally, I believe it is much higher, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Add in all the costs of Ron Lewis to the church and his expense account, and I would be SHOCKED if Ron Lewis was costing his church less than 1/2 million dollars per year($500,000.00). All the trips, the golf, the expensive suits, the commuting back and forth between NY and NC (AT THE EXPENSE OF THE CHURCH). Geez, he is living the lifestyle of a multi-millionaire on the backs of those they badger for money. People who give to the 'church' instead of buying birthday/Christmas presents for their kids. People who run up credit card debt to meet the ever increasing monetary demands from the 'church'. People who SACRIFICE DAILY so that 'King Ron' can live the lifestyle of the upper 1% of earners in our country. His lack of compassion for the horrible yoke he ties his 'people' to is astounding to me.

It may or may not change anyone's mind, but people have a right to know this stuff. Jesus certainly did NOT live this way. Paul certainly did NOT live this way. Peter certainly did NOT live this way.

WHAT RIGHT DOES RON LEWIS HAVE TO LIVE THIS WAY OFF THE BACKS OF PEOPLE WHO CAN'T AFFORD IT???

For me personally, it has not and will never affect me. I have never nor will I ever attend his church. I met Ron Lewis under a different context and was astounded at the lack of integrity he exhibited in our interactions. His 'justification' for his ethical shortcomings would be laughable coming from one of the imprisoned CEO's of late, to hear it from a 'man of God' was unbelievable.

As I am sure that his compensation will never be revealed to those that support him, maybe a few will stumble across this and realize the greed and idolatry of money and position that is the truth of who Ron Lewis is, and will choose not to support him. Maybe not, I do not know. Every little bit of exposure helps shine light upon these modern day Pharasees.

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

Wow, what have we discovered about Pastor Ron Lewis as of late?

Let's see, he lives the lifestyle unattainable by over 99% of the population of this country, which is supported by coerced giving of people trying to do right by God.

He is a liar. He publically and repeatedly lied about the the history of his church.

Arguably, he is an adulterer. Some may take issue with that statement, though, so let's just say that he was dating someone other than his wife while he was still married.

The funny/scary thing is this just scratches the surface of the 'real' Ron Lewis and what he is really about. There is so much more there, but it will be revealed with time. Such a shame that this man will be able to ruin so many more lives, though.

Just a cryin' shame.

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

2 Peter 2:3

In covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words: whose sentence now from of old doesn't linger, and their destruction will not slumber. (WEB)

And in covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose sentence now from of old lingereth not, and their destruction slumbereth not. (ASV)

And in their desire for profit they will come to you with words of deceit, like traders doing business in souls: whose punishment has been ready for a long time and their destruction is watching for them. (BBE)

And through covetousness, with well-turned words, will they make merchandise of you: for whom judgment of old is not idle, and their destruction slumbers not. (DBY)

And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. (KJV)

And through covetousness they will with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. (WBS)

Thirsting for riches, they will trade on you with their canting talk. From of old their judgement has been working itself out, and their destruction has not been slumbering. (WEY)

and in covetousness, with moulded words, of you they shall make merchandise, whose judgment of old is not idle, and their destruction doth not slumber. (YLT)

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

ibuprofen, point taken.

Right now it seems that many changes may be happening in Every Nation... and while I really, really, REALLY hope and pray that they are true heart changes, imho many of the same people involved are those who were involved in the Maranatha breakup. I don't know exactly what you saw Lewis say or do, but obviously it was pretty bad or else you wouldn't be here. So I have to admit I'm taking a very much "wait and see" attitude toward these changes, because no matter how good and necessary they may be, if they aren't done with hearts of humility and repentance when necessary of **all** those involved in implementing them, then we risk seeing a Maranatha II (or III?) imho... and history now shows how that panned out. Not exactly a sequel I'd want to be waiting in line to see.

blessings,
ulyankee

[waytruthlife (waytruthlife)]

I'm not new to the site...but this is my first ever post. Going to remain totally anonomous for now.

Another positive for EN is that they are undergoing financial review and financial audit from the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. This is one of the most well respected groups for financial accountability and they have some of the strictest standards. Of course this is not complete, it is in proccess.}

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Waytruthlife, Thank you for the great news. i have been praying for years things like these would start to happen. We prayed for Steve Murrell to start seeing things and finally he did. But it took years of prayer !

I felt assured and have peace that none of the college students and the single people will be abused any longer, since Phil Bonasso and Tony Fetchel are gone. None of the Finances will be used to pay for the Top Leaders, top $$$$ any longer.

I know there are a lot of things that needed change, and it will take a while. I am just glad its a BIG first step of change, a radical change.

Ulyankee I am with you, its a wait and see. I know there would be resistance among some MSI/EN leaders. But I believe most would welcome it.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

waytruthlife, thank you for that news, that the ECFA is the organization conducting the audit... this is encouraging.

Do you know, or would you be in a position to say, if they are auditing the finances of the entire organization including Nashville, or just the finances of the LA administrative headquarters?

blesssings,
ulyankee

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

waytruthlife,

That is a good start, if they are honestly allowing the ECFA to see everything. If not, then this will end up being a white-wash job. The streams of income to these guys come from a LARGE variety of sources, any single one wouldn't be eye-brow raising in and of itself. It is within the context of the totality of all of the streams of income, expense accounts and the 'perks of office' that one will truly see the naked greed of these people.

For example, ask Ron Lewis about the $38,500.00 'grant' he got from the Feste Capital Foundation out of Austin, TX in 2003. By itself, $38,500.00 isn't a huge sum of $ for a year, but it is just ONE stream of income for Ron Lewis. There are MANY MANY more, many of which are buried from public view.

I do not know if the accounting by ECFA will be fair or not, I truly don't. I do know human nature, and I can say that the lack of compassion and the unadulterated greed exhibited by people such as Ron Lewis is a trait that they rarely change willingly. Typically, 'repentance' comes only when there is no other avenue to protect their 'position' and income. Heck, look at the earlier public example of Ron's actions with his divorce. IS THAT RIGHTEOUS? IS THAT HOLY? IS THAT SOMETHING JESUS WOULD LOOK TO AND BE PROUD OF? Yes, we all sin and fal short, but this 'man' holds himself out as a 'proxy' for God. He certainly does not resemble the God that I know.

When REAL repentance does occur, it is very obvious to all, ie: Big Tommy. Radical repentance is impossible to hide, and it isn't done behind closed doors and/or in secret. Rightousness wants, nay demands, the light of day to shine upon it.

I hope you don't find my cautionary advice to be cynical, it is the experience of many years dealing with people from all walks of life. Greed and power are two very seductive vices that people will fight to the death to hold onto. If you choose to trust the leaders, that certainly is your right, and I would not suggest you doing otherwise. However, based on their history, wisdom would suggest that your trust should be back-stopped with verification.

Good luck to you.

[waytruthlife (waytruthlife)]

ibuprofin (love the name http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif)

Thanks for your comments.

A question:

1. How do you have this inside and apparently undercover information about where Ron Lewis and other leaders are receiving money?

Thanks "pain killer" http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[waytruthlife (waytruthlife)]

At this time, Every Nation Ministries is not a member of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA), although it does both comply with and aspire to many of the ECFA's standards.


The organization is now undergoing a a financial review of the 2003 and 2004 fiscal years by the auditing firm Capin-Crouse. This firm is the single largest auditor of ECFA members, and the organization is pleased with their commitment to a lasting business relationship with them. Capin-Crouse will conduct the first financial audit of the 2005 fiscal year in
2006. This audit should produce the first financial statements for disclosure to partners.


The corporate structure of Every Nation Ministries is also changing to comply with ECFA requirements, such as the recent expansion of the board. As these and other ECFA requirements are met, the plan is to apply for membership in ECFA.

This is the extent of the information I know. Hope it helps.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

waytruthlife,

Thank you so much for your response. Sorry for all the questions... but by Every Nation Ministries, do you mean the specific corporate entity or are you referring to everything under the "Every Nation" umbrella, including Every Nation Churches, Inc., Every Nation Ministries, Inc., and/or separately incorporated subministries like Champions for Christ, Strategic China Initiative, Reel 2 Real, etc.?

Reason I ask is because there are several separately incorporated entities under the aegis of "Every Nation." Some, like Every Nation Productions (in the US), ENLI, the various Schools of Ministry, and of course World Partners are not separately incorporated ministries and/or initiatives and those I would assume would be included by default in any audit of the parent... but separately incorporated organizations may or may not be, depending on the scope of the audit.

A related question is - when you say that there will be more board members to comply with ECFA requirements, does this mean Every Nation Churches, Inc., Every Nation Ministries, Inc., etc. and was the corporate charter(s) amended to reflect the additional board members (or are they in the process of being amended)?

Thanks much!

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on October 25, 2005)

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

ibuprofen, you said, "There are MANY MANY more, many of which are buried from public view."

I am familiar with the NPOs such as FesteCapital Foundation (previously known as Malachi Foundation), as well as some of the corporate enterprises like InPop, the Whataburger franchise, the Austin Wranglers, etc. However, it seems that you know of more that I haven't found yet in my research...?

blessings,
ulyankee

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

BTW waytruthlife, the information that ibuprofen refers to is in the public record. Go to www.guidestar.org (http://www.guidestar.org) and look up Malachi Foundation, as people have been encouraged to do in the past. Several EN leaders have gotten significant funds over the years from this "unrelated" foundation. When I mean significant, I mean tens and even hundreds of thousands of dollars in some cases. Over the years that this foundation has made awards, 82% went to Morning Star ministries and 72% went to Morning Star pastors.

There may also be some potential tax issues relating to Champions for Christ and this foundation, since according to CFC 990s during this time period (1999-2004), it was reported that no principal of CFC received excess benefit transactions from a related entity or individual. However, since Greg Feste was a board member of Executives for Christ, which according to its corporate charter was a subsidiary of Champions until EFC dissolved last year, it would be difficult to say that this foundation is not related by virtue of interlapping board membership. In addition, there is a long history of personal and professional relationships between Greg Feste and MSI/EN leaders as well as significant donors/partners including some of the more prominent current and former NFL players in CFC.

One hopes that the auditors and/or ECFA would look into issues like this one.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

waytruthlife,
Is it possible to request for a financial audit going all the way back to year 2000 ?
The reason why I ask is that HP Joined MSI/EN on March/April of 2000. And we know very well that ALL MSI/EN churches and ministries are required to give 10% of their tithes.

The very next month, Rice Brookes and Phil Bonasso bought their million dollar homes. Those are public records.
Only 12 days apart.

I am wondering where those finacial downpayment came from. Was it from HP ? Or from their own pockets, Because right now, it look suspicious that those came from HP. Hopefully that can be cleared up.

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

waytruthlife,

ulyankee is correct. Everything I have chosen to share is publicly verifiable information. There are 'professional resources' for information that are also available, but for professional reasons, I can't share anything from those sources.

The information I have shared has been specific to Ron Lewis. I do not know anything about other leaders other than what is shared here.

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

A little background on me.

I am a professional in the RTP area of NC. I golf at both Prestonwood and Lochmere in Cary NC. I also do volunteer work for various organizations in the area.

I have 'crossed paths' with Ron Lewis various times over the last few years, both socially and professionally. I can't get into the specifics, but I have personally witnessed Ron Lewis act in what anyone would consider an unethical manner, and justify it as 'business'. I do not tolerate such behavior from anyone I do business with, much less one who holds himself out as a "man of God". I have heard him talk about all the golf trips (combined with 'church business' so that his trips were paid by the church), the vacations (again, paired with 'church business' so that the vacation is paid for by the church), heard the tales of his metropolitan lifestyle in Manhattan and NC, flying back and forth at the expense of his 'flock', seen the $50k+ Mercedes 430CLK, the expensive suits, experienced the grotesque sense of entitlement, etc. etc. etc.

I am very aware of the financial resources required to live the affluent lifestyle that Ron Lewis enjoys.

In my volunteer work, I have also been involved in helping more than one family try to get back on their feet after financial devastation at the hands of Kings Park Church (and all its previous names).

When I see the REAL DAMAGE this Pharisee has caused to some good God-fearing people, so he can support this lifestyle that he feels entitled to, it just makes my blood boil. It is obvious Ron Lewis worships at the alter of power and affluence. This is where his heart lies.

Then there is the whole issue of his divorce. I don't know anything other than what is in the separation agreement and what has been shared here. But just this little bit of info makes it clear that Ron Lewis has no problem with twisting and/or ignoring scripture when it suits his carnal cravings. So much for not having even a hint of impropriety among you.

OK. I will step off of my soapbox now. I am limited to what I am willing to share, as I am not going to put my professional life on the line to expose Ron Lewis. I have devoted more time to this issue than I originally intended to, but as I discover more about Mr. Lewis and his 'ministry', I find myself sickened at what he has done to so many people. I hope what I have shared starts a honest look and evaluation by some of those that support the bastardization of scripture by Ron Lewis. Knowledge is key. Seek knowledge about the man and the real person will be revealed to you. Compare his life to his testimony. Seek to see if he walks the walk he expects of others.

(Message edited by ibuprofen on October 26, 2005)

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

ulyankee,

Great research and thank you for your comments regarding the public availability of the information I have shared. This is how people learn the truth. If more people will seek the truth, the day will come when Ron Lewis and his cronies will not be able to victimize the heart and souls of those who want to have a relationship with God.

There is a labyrinth of NPO's spawned out of KPIC. They are playing the NPO shell game of keeping individual compensation below the level that requires public disclosure in their 990's. There are more than one that falsely claim a lack of affiliation with other groups.

With the increased scrutiny of NPO's as of late, one can only hope that the various shells of EN are closely looked at. Maybe one day Ron Lewis will have to face the consequences of his actions. One can only hope so.

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

ginger1,

Great question and thought process. This sort of inquiry and critical thinking is what will bring you to discover the truth about these people. To start auditing now and 'let by-gones be by-gones' would be a fruitless exercise. If mistakes were made, they MUST be revealed and dealt with. If they were honest mistakes, that will be shown. If there was illegal inurement, that needs to be revealed and dealt with. Fairness and justice demands it.

Kudos to you for your on point question!

[waytruthlife (waytruthlife)]

Thank you for your candid responses and great questions.

Question 1.
"Thank you so much for your response. Sorry for all the questions... but by Every Nation Ministries, do you mean the specific corporate entity or are you referring to everything under the "Every Nation" umbrella, including Every Nation Churches, Inc., Every Nation Ministries, Inc., and/or separately incorporated subministries like Champions for Christ, Strategic China Initiative, Reel 2 Real, etc.?"

Response 1:
I am not in a position to give you a 100% accurate answer. I can give you my impression. My impression is that everything under the Every Nation Umbrella is being audited. GREAT QUESTION though!

Question 2:
"...when you say that there will be more board members to comply with ECFA requirements, does this mean Every Nation Churches, Inc., Every Nation Ministries, Inc., etc. and was the corporate charter(s) amended to reflect the additional board members (or are they in the process of being amended)?"

Response 2:
GREAT THINKING! This again (my impression) refers to the the whole ENC/ENCM umbrella. I don't know if board members were added before asked by ECFA or after and then refelected as such.

Question 3:
"Is it possible to request for a financial audit going all the way back to year 2000 ?
The reason why I ask is that HP Joined MSI/EN on March/April of 2000. And we know very well that ALL MSI/EN churches and ministries are required to give 10% of their tithes."

Response 3:
I have no way of knowing the answer to this off the bat. I think it would be good to have an audit dating back to 2000, esp. for the reason you cited. It would be hard evidence on whether or not large amounts of money were given to key leaders who subsequently bought million dollar homes. What/Who is HP?

My questions:
What is an NPO?

I logged onto the www.guidestar.com (http://www.guidestar.com) site and did not find anything substantial. Any help for navigating the site?

Ibuprofen,
Thanks for filling me in. I understand and respect your privacy and inability to disclose certain details. Thanks for giving me what you could...unfortunately, without knowing the source I cannot draw the same conclusions you have without just taking you at your word.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Quickly... NPO=Non Profit Organization

HP=His People, which is the family of charismatic churches in South Africa that joined with MSI/EN in 2001 I believe (check the timeline for the exact dates, hehe).

If you register for free on www.guidestar.org (http://www.guidestar.org) you can get access to Forms 990 of various non-profit organizations, including CFC and Malachi Foundation. Use the "advanced search" function, or click on the link telling how to search for Forms 990.

Thanks so much for addressing my other questions!

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on October 25, 2005)

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

WaytruthLife, HP is His People of Africa, Canada, London etc. Its a very big ministry that have joined MSI/EN, back in year 2000.(or is it 2001 ?)
HP africa alone, one church consist of 15,000 members, the smallest they have is 6,000 members.It has hundreds of churches worldwide. This is what I was told. So its a very huge ministry. So for all those churches to give their 10% of their tithes, thats a lot of money.
Thats why when Rice and Phil bought their milion dollars homes the very next month ,after HP joined MSI/EN its does look suspicious, that those money came from His People tithes.

Thats why I felt its important for MSI/EN to audit all the way back to the year 2000 or 2001.
if thats possible.

I do not remember the year 2000 or 2001, but I know for sure, Rice and Phil bought their million dollar homes the very next month. After HP joined.




(Message edited by ginger1 on October 25, 2005)

[romans122 (romans122)]

March - April 2000 His People merges with Morning Star International.

May 2000 Both Broocks (5/2) and Bonasso (5/12) close on their new residential properties.

From the timeline - just thought I'd save some of you from looking it up.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

romans122, thank you. I'm glad I wrote all that stuff down b/c with all those facts and dates now I can't remember them off the top of my head any more, lol!

ibuprofen and lc both... thank you for your candor.

ibuprofen, would the "other" NPOs you refer to come up in a SOS search? Are there other registered agents besides just Ron Lewis? Or other states where NPOs are registered, besides NC and TX?

Is anyone here familiar with Harald Bredesen passing his mantle on to Ron Lewis, or John Maxwell passing his mantle on to Kevin York? And/or any ceremonies where these events may have taken place?

blessings,
ulyankee

[ontheroad (ontheroad)]

All of the people mentioned in the context of financial inpropriety and con games have one thing in common: a sense of entitlement, as one poster wrote. I witnessed this over and over with my pastor as well. He seemed to take it for granted that it should be common knowledge that things were due him just because he was the pastor - money was given to him many times by people for his supposed need or for vacations. He took over use of a church member's truck which he liked when his personal vehicle would break down, even for long periods of time(never mind that this put a burden on the church member). He expected people to babysit his kids, clean his house and cook for him for free, at any whim of his choosing. He had personal use of the church checkbook, with his name as the signer, for years. He wrote at least $30,000 (documented) of personal expenses from the church account. He even (and this disgusts me the most) conned an elderly widow with a diagnosed form of dementia into giving of her own meager funds over and over to him, to the point that she herself had insurance lapse, food run low, and risked disconnection of services.

So my question is: What is it in Maranatha/MSN/EN's foundational teaching makes these supposed mighty "men of God" believe they are entitled to whatever they want? What in the doctrine or belief system excuses and justifies this behavior? I'm just wondering the root of it.

Anybody's thoughts?

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

ulyankee,

I can't recall specifically how I came across the different NPO's that I refer to. If I remember correctly, I was doing a google of Ron Lewis and came across different organizations that he was involved in. I did various searches on Guidestar and some other industry specific databases and came up with more info that led me to them. I will try to relocate that info and share it with you. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot of 'hard' info in the 990's. What I remember more than anything were the huge sums spent on travel and lodging. The whole NPO loophole of keeping individual compensation below the reporting thresh hold and having multiple NPO's to dip into seems alive and well at KPIC. Works that way with the expense account shell game also.

Best of luck in your quest and I will see what I can relocate and share with you.

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

If anyone would like to contact me offline, feel free to email me at

ibuprofen21@hotmail.com

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Thanks, ibuprofen. If you ever want to swap research notes (what you can - not anything that you're privy to solely due to your profession) my email address is ulyankee@yahoo.com.

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

lc_20,

Thank you for sharing what you have. I am sorry you were a victim of greed by Ron Lewis. Maybe by sharing publicly, we can help at least one person avoid being victimized by Ron Lewis.

I do wish you the best. Again, thank you for sharing what you have. Your courage here is much greater than mine, as I have never been personally victimized by Ron Lewis and then threatened and kicked out of church.

Again, thank you for sharing what you have shared.

[wiseasaserpentgentleasadove (wiseasaserpentgentleasadove)]

just jumping in on this topic, but does anyone know of any of the pastor's wives getting a salary in any of the EN churches?

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

It has privately been suggested to me that minions of various EN leaders regularly peruse this board and report back.

If true, I would like to say the following:

Ron Lewis, I have revealed enough here for you to figure out who I am.

I welcome your communications at the email address I shared earlier. If you wish to pursue civil charges of libel, please have your attorney contact me via email and I will be more than happy to furnish you my personal information. I would welcome the opportunity to assist you in overcoming your lust for power and money in a public venue.

Sincerely,
ibuprofen

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

<font color="119911">I have no access to facts one way or the other about RL, but regarding fiscal abuse, ontheroad said, "<font color="000000">What is it in Maranatha/MSN/EN's foundational teaching makes these supposed mighty "men of God" believe they are entitled to whatever they want? What in the doctrine or belief system excuses and justifies this behavior? I'm just wondering the root of it."</font>

It's not the teaching or system that causes it. It's called Sin, and no church or business or individual has a corner on that market. Even in my own life, I have seen the "entitlement mentality" creep in and had to deal with it (reference my own whining to God on multiple occasions as to why my life should be better). We should all examine our own lives carefully.

I believe EN is in the process of instituting better operational mechanics in their organization but, as any Forensic CPA will tell you, nobody and no system can prevent abuses from occurring but, by instituting better mechanisms and procedures, it can be caught earlier on so that the damage done is less severe and done over a shorter period of time.

--SB</font>

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

thecymbrogi wrote:
"Even in my own life, I have seen the "entitlement mentality" creep in and had to deal with it (reference my own whining to God on multiple occasions as to why my life should be better). We should all examine our own lives carefully. "

thecymbrogi, you are absolutely correct in what you share here. A sense of entitlement can happen to any of us, and I do not claim to be innocent of it. However, there is a HUGE difference between myself and Ron Lewis. I WORK for my income. I do not manipulate the faith of others. I do teach/browbeat/badger others to live a sacrificial lifestyle that I am unwilling to live myself. I do not make unquestioning obedience of my every whim a condition of going to heaven.

If Ron feels that he deserves the affluent cosmopolitan lifestyle he enjoys, he should go out and EARN it. Instead, he is a predator that preys on those who are sincerely seeking God. He is nothing but a shark disguised as a 'Pastor'.

One can NOT justify the lifestyle Ron Lewis enjoys at the expense of his 'people' biblically. The ONLY justification one can use to back up his lifestyle is a worldly comparison.

He holds himself out as a Pastor. He WILL be judged by a different yardstick than I. The bible he uses to beat others into submission is VERY CLEAR on that point.

[ontheroad (ontheroad)]

Cynbrogi -

I agree with you that no teaching or system is immune to issues of entitlement and financial inpropriety. Sadly, it can and often does exist on almost every religious caveat. However, some organizations seem to have a deeper problem with it than others, as it seems is the case with Maranatha/MSN/EN. Given that alot of people have often experienced abuse of authority in these churches, there seems to be strong connections between authoritarian control, entitlement issues, and mishandling of finances. The answer isn't just ensuring that these sins "can be caught earlier on so that the damage done is less severe", but getting to the root of the beliefs that foster the entitlement in leadership.

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

"...any Forensic CPA will tell you, nobody and no system can prevent abuses from occurring but..."

You know, this is a very true statement. Maybe it is my naivity showing, but wouldn't a simple process of financial transparency solve so many of the issues we are discussing here? Don't the people who give the money have a right to know that their contribution is being handled wisely? Wouldn't you agree that shining a light on this area would make a HUGE difference?

Seems that the mighty man of God that Ron Lewis claims to be would WANT to be open and forthcoming about finances. I can't imagine Jesus hiding things the way Ron does. I also have a hard time imagining Jesus driving around in a $50k+ Mercedes paid for by the sacrifices of his people. I can't imagine Jesus scheduling trips to churches to speak for an hour so that he can take a golfing vacation at the expense of his people. I can't imagine Jesus scheduling trips to churches to speak for an hour so that he can take his family on an exotic vacation at the expense of his people. I can't imagine Jesus living a cosmopolitan lifestyle, commuting back and forth between Manhattan and Cary, all on the back of his people. I just can't see the example of Jesus that Ron Lewis represents.

Maybe it's just me, and Ron Lewis is right...

If so, I don't want any part of the God Ron Lewis represents.

(Message edited by ibuprofen on October 26, 2005)

[formermaranathapastor (formermaranathapastor)]

Ibuprofen- I agree. I do not know the God of Ron Lewis and I do not want to know it.

[ontheroad (ontheroad)]

Ibuprofen wrote, <font color="0077aa">"wouldn't a simple process of financial transparency solve so many of the issues we are discussing here? Don't the people who give the money have a right to know that their contribution is being handled wisely? "</font>

YES! You are absolutely right. But that level of transparency would exist in a healthy belief sytem and would be based some presuppositions:

* that leadership should should not be untouchable or above the level of scrutiny

* that congregations should have the right to ask questions of leadership and that leadership should openly answer those questions, not silence or rebuke the congregation for asking

* that leadership does not make one qualified for a double-standard of rules and lifestyles.

Unfortunately, Maranatha/MSN/EN is not a healthy organization. It seems that alot of its pastors and leaders believe that their position entitles them to a different set of norms from the rest of the congregation. Until this feudal-lord belief system is dismantled, such transparency can't occur.

(Message edited by ontheroad on October 26, 2005)

(Message edited by ontheroad on October 26, 2005)

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

<font color="119911">hmmmm, to whom do I respond???.........

caveat first: I have no trustworthy information either way regarding Ron, so my comments are not specifically regarding the accusations made regarding him. My comments were, and still are, intended to be much broader in scope. I have seen enough "facts" on this board that I know are patently false to put any merit in accusations I am not able to verify from multiple sources.

<font color="000000">ontheroad</font>: I disagree that any real (or perceived) financial improprieties are the result of EN doctrine or teaching. Lack of adequate organizational mechanics, yes. But theology, no.


<font color="000000">ibuprofen</font>: my comment was not meant to equalize the level, degree, or severity of one person's sins to those of another. It was simply an acknowledgment that, regardless of who we are, we tend to have to fight an <u>entitlement</u> mentality. Sometimes it is manifested worse than others, but it is still a tendency. Opportunity oftentimes has to do with the extent one abuses the trust he has been given. And opportunity in no way lessens the severity of the sin, nor excuses it.

<font color="000000">ibuprofen</font>: regarding having financial transparency, you are absolutely correct. I am confident those in positions to do something about it are doing something about it.

<font color="000000">titus</font>-- <sigh> you said <font color="000000">not true. A healthy system will minimize problems to the point they are practically non-existent. You are creating mud here, once again.</font> Alas, my fellow forum participant, your statement is incorrect on all points. The last report I heard on Forensic Accounting from a Forensic CPA was this past July. My statement (that you disagree with) of "<font color="000000">...any Forensic CPA will tell you, nobody and no system can prevent abuses from occurring but...</font>" is completely in line with the most current research from that field. So, if you disagree with me, disagree with the experts. But I refuse to tread where those much wiser than I fear go, so have at it but you'll probably hike solo.

BTW, just a few stats on fraud from the latest report on Forensic Accounting:
84% of perpetrators are first-time offenders
The average time to detect fraud, even with proper mechanics in place, is 18 months.
Most cases start with just a little bit of money and escalates over time as weaknesses in the system and weaknesses in detection are discovered and exploited.

It would not be inconsistent with current Forensic Accounting to state that some perpetrators of fraud come to feel <u>entitled</u> to the money they are stealing.

How many of us have felt <u>entitled</u> before God for our p@@@-poor attitudes before Him? Whatever is happening in EN, for me it has always been a call to also examine my life for any of the character flaws I may see in others. I have seen too many of my fellow forum participants, in an attempt to criticize others for their socio-cult behaviors, unwittingly exhibit the same themselves. Perhaps I, too, have been one of them. Let's reflect upon our own mortal lives, too, as we reflect upon those of others, lest we become like those we do not like.

--SB</font>

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

thecymbrogi,
Thank you for you well thought out response. I will start by saying while I agree with many of your points in principle, this discussion is neither the time nor place for them.

"I have no trustworthy information either way regarding Ron ..... I have seen enough "facts" on this board that I know are patently false to put any merit in accusations I am not able to verify from multiple sources."

I agree that taking things at face value, especially in an anonymous internet forum, is likely a foolish thing to do. What I have shared can be verified very easily. I have provided the means for you and anyone else to do so. If the 'proof' offered is from a legal document signed by Ron Lewis and filed with the Wake County Register of Deeds, I would propose that this kinda negates the necessity of needing 'multiple' sources. This document lays out what the terms of his separation were. The sums I mention come straight from this document, and I provided the means for anyone that want to verify this to do so. His Mercedes is referenced in this document. You can go to the Wake County Tax Records Office online and verify he owns this vehicle as well. Although my knowledge of his life in Manhattan and NC came from Ron, he states this in his biography on the KPIC website. This can be found at http://www.kpic.org/whoweare/pastors/ron_lewis.html

"He and his wife, Lynette (www.lynettelewis.com (http://www.lynettelewis.com)), split their time between Manhattan and Raleigh."

The info on the additional $38,500.00 of income from 2003 can be found in the 2003 990 on file for "Malachi Foundation" ulyankee posted how to find that info, but feel free to let me know if you need assistance finding it.

These things I share are facts that can easily be verified. You can look up the dates and amounts of Ron Lewis' mortgages online at the Wake County Register of Deeds also. It is very easy to figure out the minimum amount of income that will support mortgages. These ratios are public knowledge.

I do understand your reluctance to blindly believe anything you may read on an anonymous internet forum, but I will challenge you to follow up and verify what I have shared. If you see any errors in what I have shared, I am very open to learning where I might be incorrect, and very willing to retract and apologize publicly.

"ibuprofen: my comment was not meant to equalize the level, degree, or severity of one person's sins to those of another. It was simply an acknowledgment that, regardless of who we are, we tend to have to fight an entitlement mentality. "

I agree with you. However, this is a discussion for another time and place. This discussion is specifically about the financial abuses within the EN organization. This is not a discussion about my struggle or your struggle or John Doe's struggle with a sense of entitlement or other sins. For me personally, this discussion is about the financial abuse of the membership of KPIC by Ron Lewis. Whether or not I struggle with a 'sense of entitlement' has absolutely no relevance here.

"Sometimes it is manifested worse than others, but it is still a tendency. Opportunity oftentimes has to do with the extent one abuses the trust he has been given. And opportunity in no way lessens the severity of the sin, nor excuses it."

Again, I agree. However, this is not relevant to the discussion at hand. I am here to publicly share what I know about Ron Lewis, and to encourage others to do so. If my actions somehow help one person avoid being victimized financially by Ron Lewis and company, my time here will have been well spent. It is MUCH easier to educate people than try to put the pieces of a shattered life and faith back together. If you want to discuss personal issues of sin, I am fine with that. Please open a new thread and I will join you in it.

"ibuprofen: regarding having financial transparency, you are absolutely correct. I am confident those in positions to do something about it are doing something about it. "

To paraphrase an earlier statement of yours, I have heard many many times in the past about 'problems' that are being addressed. No offense intended, but your confidence has zero credibility with me. Please point me to some independent sources that I can verify that this is indeed being done. This is the standard that you brought up in your posting. Would it be fair of me to expect the same?

Frankly, I do not understand how anyone could begin to have confidence in this process if it is being 'fixed' by the very same people that resisted fixing it for years. The same people that profited from the lack of transparency and have the most to lose when the veil is lifted. Would you trust the perpetrators of the fraud at Enron to be able to 'fix' the problems there in an honest and straightforward manner?

Again, I thank you for your well thought out response. It is through dialogue such as this that we all learn, and knowledge is never bad. Regarding your deviation into personal struggles and personal sin, please let me know if you start a thread devoted to these issues. I will join you there to discuss these things.

Sincerely,
ibuprofen

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

deleted duplicate post

(Message edited by ibuprofen on October 26, 2005)

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

Pastor Ron Lewis
Ronald Lewis
Kings Park International Church
KPIC
Morningstar
Morning Star
MSNY
New York
Maranatha
Raleigh
Durham
Chapel Hill
Cary
RTP
Research Triangle Park
North Carolina
Campus Harvest
www.kpic.org (http://www.kpic.org)
www.msny.org (http://www.msny.org)

Not sure how often google's spiders index this site, but this posting is to help anyone doing a google search about Ron Lewis or his various 'churches'. If you know of any other keywords that should be added, let me know and I will edit this post.

Knowledge is key to making informed decisions.

[ontheroad (ontheroad)]

Cymbrogi -
<font color="0077aa">"I have seen enough "facts" on this board that I know are patently false to put any merit in accusations I am not able to verify from multiple sources."</font><font color="000000">

Please give some examples of these patently false statements and provide evidence that they are false.</font>

[standfast (standfast)]

Ontheroard,

Let's see. I was falsely accused of deleting posts. I was falsey accused of claiming to have been at staff meetings about the TF matter. I was falsely accused of having info about minors. I was falsely accused of lying about being a lawyer. I was falsely accused of claiming TF was a contractor and not an employee when I said the opposite was likely true. I was falsely accused of having posted here under different names.

All of the above were treated as "facts" by posters on this board.

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

<font color="119911">ibuprofen--

No offence taken. As I stated in both of my previous posts, my comments were general in nature, not specific to RL's church. However, regarding RL, I am not going to discuss how a local church has decided to compensate its local pastor (and don't believe others should, either). I do not believe I have any Biblical right to do so since I am not part of that local church. Discussing a local church I am not a part of (RL's) is quite different than discussing an organization I am part of (EN). In that case, there is Biblical precedent for my discussion and therefore I have been frank in my opinions of the EN organization.

In my opinion it is almost always a misstep of Biblical authority and position for an individual in one local church to meddle in the affairs of another local church's business.


ontheroad--

No. If I had thought it right to do so, I would have already done so. But it's fine you asked.


--SB</font>

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Compensation was not a local church decision as far as I could tell. I doubt even the new "head pastor" has any influence over the spending. Last I heard, all expenses in NYC (all his spending for half the week every week for years) were considered business expenses - all food, cabs, housing... probably covered his dates with his new girl while he was going through his divorce too. I highly doubt the congregation had any idea what they were paying for.

[romans122 (romans122)]

I have never heard of members of an EN church having a voice in how the financial offerings were spent or allocated. Cymbrogi - is the congregation of your church asked for opinion and/or approval of where their tithes and offerings go? If so, is it handled through a local church board?

[upcase20 (upcase20)]

IC-20,Romans122 - Let's not be dumb. In my area the head pastor has a million dollar home despite serving a congregation of about 200 people. His ministry is geared toward serving inner city underprivledged children, so why does he live far, far from the inner city. He told the congregation at a meeting how MSI had given him the authority to spend the money how he pleases (It's on an earlier thread). I think I know where that money goes.

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

<font color="119911">lc_20--

And my point is that it should be an issue for the local church to look into, not for you, me, or any other <font color="0000ff">person outside</font> of that local church<font color="0000ff"> (the obvious exception being those with ecclesiastical authority over that local church)</font>. It is a different issue than examining that of the EN organizational structure. IMNSHO, it is almost always a misstep of Biblical authority and position for an individual in one local church to meddle in the affairs of another local church's business.

romans122--

You asked about my church: I like and agree with the way my local church's finances are managed. They are overseen on an ongoing basis under the authority of the eldership. Annual financial reporting to the entire congregation. Salaries are not under the control of those receiving them. Next outside independent audit is already scheduled. God is good.


titus--

Well, we'll just have to both believe the other one is wrong. I disagree with almost all of your conclusions/statements/opinions in your previous post. And I may have just spent too much time responding to your misstatements.


upcase--

I don't know about the case you are referencing, so don't misinterpret what I am saying as being for or against your opinion. However, in my area, I know a head pastor who bought his home for under $300K (a giveaway, practically, at the time). Through sweat equity and a lot of work he did improving the home, he now lives in what is probably now a million dollar home (courtesy of the California housing market). So, in this case, the pastor's equity in his home is actually a credit to his Biblical character in the areas of stewardship, diligence, planning, and perseverance (to name a few). Some could gripe and complain as to why he lives in such a large home when others can't even afford to live in the same community. But they would be wrong not only on their conclusions, but their assumptions as well, simply because they don't have all the facts.

In many cases, we need to look beyond just the home value or other things to determine what is appropriate for ourselves and others. That is why I believe local pastors should fall under the authority of their local church when it comes to finances. I also believe that we who are on the outside of a church should not presume to judge one way or the other what is right or wrong for those inside that church. IMNSHO, it is almost always a misstep of Biblical authority to do so.


--SB

<font color="0000ff">note--all my edits are in blue</font></font>

(Message edited by thecymbrogi on October 28, 2005)

(Message edited by thecymbrogi on October 28, 2005)

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

thecymbrogi wrote:

"And my point is that it should be an issue for the local church to look into, not for you, me, or any other non-congregant of that local church."

WRONG, WRONG , WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your premise that the perpetrators of wrong-doing should be the ones to clean up and fix the problems. HOW ON EARTH CAN YOU IN GOOD CONSCIENCE SUGGEST SUCH A THING????

I can't believe that you have the audacity to suggest such a thing and hold yourself out as a 'christian'. I personally have a deep belief in God, but I do not call myself a Christian because of people like you.

I do not have the time to properly address this right now, but I will over the weekend.

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

<font color="119911">ibuprofen--

Wow! What a reaction to my previous post!! Kinda reminds me of Guy Fawkes day....

I've edited my post to be a bit clearer as to what I was conveying. LOL. How about some Tylenol and Valium? <grin> ('hope you don't mind a little humor)

"<font color="000000">...or any other non-congregant of that local church.</font>"

was changed to

"<font color="000000">...or <u>any person outside</u> of that local church <u>(the obvious exception being those with ecclesiastical authority over that local church)</u>.</font>"

In your defense, you may have read too fast... I did the first time after looking at my post following your comments. I had to reread it.

--SB</font>

[upcase20 (upcase20)]

Ibuprofen : The house was bought for $796,000 . . . .public record . . . . if I had a house that high people would accuse me of greed. . . .but I liked your entry, it was insightful.

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

upcase,
Which house are you referring to?

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

You're referring to the house of the the DC/NoVa church pastor, right upcase?

BTW ibuprofen &amp; others who are interested, if you get a chance, look at who got the greatest one-time amount from Malachi Foundation. It looked to be the year of the Curtis Enis controversy.

(Message edited by ulyankee on October 31, 2005)

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

cymbrogi,
Don't worry, I haven't forgotten you, just extremely busy at the moment.

RE: the tylenol/valium remark, I find that benzodiazepines and codeine work better for me... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

In the meantime, I do have few questions for you.

Since you brought Catholicism to the discussion with your reference to Guy Fawkes. Do you see any parallels between the way the Catholic Church had handled their sexual abuse accusations in secrecy and the way that EN currently handles their financial abuse allegations in secrecy?

You said:
"And my point is that it should be an issue for the local church to look into, not for you, me, or any other person outside of that local church (the obvious exception being those with ecclesiastical authority over that local church). It is a different issue than examining that of the EN organizational structure. IMNSHO, it is almost always a misstep of Biblical authority and position for an individual in one local church to meddle in the affairs of another local church's business. "

So what you are saying is that despite the fact that people in my community are being financially and spiritually raped by this 'church' (KPIC) and its leader (Ron Lewis), I have no right to 'meddle' in the affairs of this 'church'. I can be involved in volunteer efforts to try to mitigate, repair and help heal, but I have no right to get involved, no right to expose the hypocrisy of these 'men of god', no right to try to help end the predatory tactics that bring such devastation to so many in my community????

You call yourself a christian yet you take this stance??? Let people suffer, but don't 'challenge' the wrong-doing within a 'church' you aren't a member of???

I challenge you to show me where in your bible it suggests such a thing....

ibuprofen
PS: I don't consider this 'purple book' I hear so much about to be a bible, either...

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

ibuprofen... have KPIC or any of its affiliates (like Strategic China Initiative, Youth Life Foundation of the Triangle, etc.) engaged in fund raising initiatives/campaigns in the greater RTP/Raleigh-Durham community, based on what you've observed?

blessings,
ulyankee

[truthseeker180359 (truthseeker180359)]

It is interesting to see how the focus has changed to Ron Lewis, but I think that "ibuprofen" would do well to understand that whenever we point a finger at someone, there are usually three fingers pointing back at us. For the record, I am certainly not saying that I oppose people seeking truth. However, we need to differentiate between judging the facts of a situation, and assassinating a person's character. As many of the contributors to Factnet claim to be Christians, we are (or should be!) bound by Jesus' stern warning, Mt 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."

"ibuprofen"'s made the statement: "If Ron feels that he deserves the affluent cosmopolitan lifestyle he enjoys, he should go out and EARN it. Instead, he is a predator that preys on those who are sincerely seeking God. He is nothing but a shark disguised as a 'Pastor'�.

This is about as judgmental as you can get! I think that it is important to keep the focus on the facts and to play down the emotion and the sensationalism or the credibility of this site is going to be seriously undermined.

"ontheroad": I tend to concur with "thecymbrogi" that one cannot put trust in the so-called "facts" that appear in some of the postings on this site. For example, I noted in another thread that “ginger1� is using an email (obtained probably with a level of deception) from an Every Nation missionary who has not received funds from “World Partners�. She uses this to claim that these funds are being misappropriated. The fact that this missionary may not be receiving these funds – which I understand are paid into a general account – does not prove there is anything untoward taking place. Incidentally, ginger1 gave an assurance that the name of this missionary would be removed from Factnet due to the potential that exists to endanger this person’s life and ministry, but there is still a mention of his name on ginger1 posting on Tuesday, October 18.

In another place on this thread, “ginger1� wrote:

"HP africa alone, one church consist of 15,000 members, the smallest they have is 6,000 members.It has hundreds of churches worldwide. This is what I was told. So its a very huge ministry. So for all those churches to give their 10% of their tithes, thats a lot of money. Thats why when Rice and Phil bought their milion dollars homes the very next month ,after HP joined MSI/EN its does look suspicious, that those money came from His People tithes."

This is patent nonsense – as a simple search of the Every Nation website or a google of His People would have showed. So I think that it is very discrediting to post “facts� that are really fabrications. Like the old question used in some personal evangelism training goes: “how many lies does it take to make a liar?�

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

Truthseeker writes:
"However, we need to differentiate between judging the facts of a situation, and assassinating a person's character."

I am differentiating. I have personally seen and been involved in cleaning up the damage from Ron Lewis. Ron Lewis and his ilk are cancers in my community, and I feel a personal obligation to expose this. If my writing here saves just one person from the financial and spiritual rape of Ron Lewis and KPIC, then my time here will have been well spent.

Truthseeker writes:
"As many of the contributors to Factnet claim to be Christians, we are (or should be!) bound by Jesus' stern warning, Mt 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."

I agree, this caution from the gospel is very wise. It warns us about using a different standard to judge others than we would use for ourselves. Personally, I have NO PROBLEM with being judged by the standards I expect of Ron Lewis. I earn my living HONESTLY, not by prostituting the gospel to feed my craving for an affluent lifestyle and personal power.

Truthseeker writes:
"ibuprofen"'s made the statement: "If Ron feels that he deserves the affluent cosmopolitan lifestyle he enjoys, he should go out and EARN it. Instead, he is a predator that preys on those who are sincerely seeking God. He is nothing but a shark disguised as a 'Pastor'�.
This is about as judgmental as you can get!"

You are absolutely correct. As stated earlier, I have NO PROBLEM being held to the standard I expect of Ron Lewis. I would be more than happy to justify my lifestyle based on the value I bring to the community. I do not have anyone coming behind me to try and help others recover from the financial devastation of my "ministry".

Truthseeker writes:
"I think that it is important to keep the focus on the facts and to play down the emotion and the sensationalism or the credibility of this site is going to be seriously undermined. "

Revealing the truth is not sensationalism. Showing people how Ron Lewis lives on the backs of their sacrifices is not sensationalism. People need to know the truth of this, so when they are badgered yet one more time to 'give sacrificially', they will be able to honestly consider what they are being told, and make an informed decision about what they want their contribution to support.

You can choose to toe the company line and try to keep a lid on the damage wrought by your 'church'. I will continue to assist those I come across and I will continue to share what I know about these Pharisee's and prostitutes of the gospel.

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

ulyankee,
Other than the efforts within the 'church' that I have been told about, I am not aware of any fund raising initiatives/campaigns by KPIC and/or any of their affiliations. This doesn't mean they are not happening, just that I am unaware of them.

Actually, scratch that. There was a grant for some 'community outreach program' sponsored by KPIC from the local Durham City Council that I recall seeing in a google search. I will see if I can figure out where I saw that and post the link here for you. The next month will be a busy one for me, so please be a little patient with me. I will find it for you, though. I appreciate all the work you have done documenting the corporate shell games of EN.

ibuprofen

[upcase20 (upcase20)]

It's me again folks; ibuprofen &amp; ulyankee. Yes I was referring to the house of the DC/NoVA pastor. Not to toot my own horn but I live in the inner city, not in the burbs, and in doing so I interact with at risk youth on a daily basis.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Ibuprofen,
You are a God-send. I appreciate your efforts here. It sounds like you are helping people that I have known and maybe even hurt while I was living under the prosperity message. You are right about the spiritual betrayal being similar to rape. Thanks for all you are doing here.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

ibuprofen, if it's on the web I should be able to find that, thanks. My initial hunch is that it may have something to do with Youth Life Foundation since the various chapters in NC, TN, NoVA/DC, central VA do solicit community and corporate support. The parent org based in DC used to get federal funding from Americorps but not any more. If one doesn't get federal funds, one does not need to adhere to federal fiscal regulations. (I used to work in grants compliance so this is an area in which I have first hand knowledge, btw.)

Strategic China Initiative raised funds in Minneapolis recently, where there are no EN churches but there are "friends" in a church affiliated with the New Testament Church movement (Jim Laffoon came out of a NC church from that same movement, btw) as well as a former Maranatha church. I don't know where else they've gone to raise funds outside of EN churches, though.

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on November 01, 2005)

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

truthseeker, I would like to caution you that each person on this board posts of their own volition, meaning that because you found one person's post to be in error, doesn't mean that all are. It does mean, as you indicate, that one should test what is said. But it doesn't automatically invalidate everything said here.

My experience has been with **most** people here is that if they've been in error, that one could approach them with it and correct it.

My experience has also been that **most** people here are sincerely striving for the truth, whatever it is. However, since Every Nation leadership has been less than forthcoming in some if not many respects (one example... the history of the movement), the truth has been difficult to get at, and sometimes when grasping for straws one may just get air.

You might want to see some of the other non-related discussion threads on FACTNet as a basis of comparison. Our discussions here (on both sides of the issue) are pretty well-behaved as becoming a group of (mostly) Christians, especially compared to some of what is posted elsewhere on FACTNet!

blessings,
ulyankee

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

ibuprofen, are these the links you were referring to?

2004 PDF (http://www.ci.durham.nc.us/agendas/minutes/cc_minutes_09_07_04.pdf) HTML (http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:AX0VUoBEk_oJ:www.ci.durham.nc.us/agendas/minutes/cc_minutes_09_07_04.pdf+durham+north+carolina+%22y outh+life+foundation%22&amp;hl=en)
2003 PDF (http://www.ci.durham.nc.us/agendas/minutes/cc_minutes_11_03_03.pdf) HTML (http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:e-C7v1-ttikJ:www.ci.durham.nc.us/agendas/minutes/cc_minutes_11_03_03.pdf+durham+north+carolina+%22y outh+life+foundation%22&amp;hl=en)

If so, yes, it was Youth Life Foundation of the Triangle.

I wonder then... are they a subrecipient of local, state, or federal funds, or any combination of the above? In all cases, subrecipients of federal awards are supposed to be monitored by the pass through agency (so, whoever provides the subrecipient with federal funds). However, if the sub receives less than $500k in federal funds (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/circulars/a133/a133.html), they aren't themselves required to go through what's called an A-133 audit. The threshhold used to be $25k (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/circulars/a133/a133-lead.html).

(Message edited by ulyankee on November 01, 2005)

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

ulyankee,

The links provided do not work, but yes that was the one I was thinking of.

ibuprofen

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

lc_20,

Please email me at ibuprofen21@hotmail.com

Thanks

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Oops, thanks for letting me know the links don't work. I'll revise the post.

[truthseeker180359 (truthseeker180359)]

ulyankee

Thanks for your response - I read your posting with interest and take your point. From what I have read, you are certainly one who does as much as you can to ensure that your contributions are at least based on reasonable suppositions, even if they may not be undisputed fact. My concern was that there are others who contribute whose emotions sometime seem to cloud the issues. This is clearly not helpful.

Regardless, it is evident to me from what I read and hear that there are moves afoot in Every Nation to bring a far higher degree of transparency and accountability than in the past. Maybe this is in part as a result of the contributions of yourself and others to point out some weaknesses?

At the same time, it also seems to me that the flashpoints of much of the criticism center around a very few churches and individuals - with many others in the EN movement within the US and around the world doing a commendable job of planting/growing balanced local churches, reaching campuses and reaching tomorrow's leaders with the Gospel in an increasingly post-modern world. It is equally true that a significant majority of these churches had nothing to do with Maranatha (another flashpoint for criticism) and the vast majority of their congregations have never heard of Maranatha either! It therefore seems somewhat unfair to tar everyone with the same brush.

Anyway, while it is true that there are probably (certainly?) people who have been burned and hurt in the past, I think that any moves by the EN leadership towards rectifying some of these apparent weaknesses should be encouraged, if not applauded. From a biblical standpoint, repentance backed by fruit in keeping with repentance = forgiveness. Sometimes repentance is unexpected - and especially when we think that God should wade in with some serious judgment, human nature tends to be disappointed with the result. Look at Jonah! However, the correct response is to recognize that God always desires repentance and that in judgment He always remembers mercy.

Blessings!

Truthseeker

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Truthseeker-Thank you for your posts. I would say in reply that some of us are contending for the gospel, as the Word tells to do so. Some of us see from much experience and research, doctrinal problems that are by no means small.

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

<font color="119911">And some of us see some doctrinal problems in those who accuse EN of doctrinal problems, LOL <grin>.


truthseeker--

aptly said.

--SB</font>

[40days40years (40days40years)]

How do you reform EN leadership? Is it possible? Personally I think the American leadership in the states is a massive threat to the future viability of EN, just my personal opinion. It appears that many of them live like kings in very expensive homes on the backs of college kids and families barely making it. There are reports of prosperous men who know God taking advantage of elderly women suffering from beginning dementia (how can this be?). Men who have big salaries with very large housing allowances hobnobbing with the wealthy and then making their staff earn their own support? Missionaries forced to earn their own support while the leaders enjoy big pay checks. How is this allowed to exist? Another question is why were men in certain ministries allowed to bully others with unChrist like behaviour and get away with it for so long?

I remember in the 80's in Maranatha when missionaries and others in the lower levels of ministry were told to raise their own support. Maranatha was dumping their ministrial responsibilities onto other Christian churches in a big way, WHY??? is it like this. We all have visited churches out there where there is a map on the wall with a picture of a missionary family being supported by the local church. Is it true that many of the EN little people have to raise their own support and go to others in the Body of Christ outside the EN denomination while their leaders live the good life? My ex boss was not a Christian but one of his favorite quotes he used to love to say all the time was, "Money does'nt talk it screams"

Does EN leadership profit by having young people baby sitting their kids for free and clean their homes for free? When EN leadership were around 17 years old would they have baby sitted their neighbors kids and done chores for them for free? It's o.k if someone blesses you by watching your kids once in awhile but to institutionalize a system where leadership gets freebies from poor college kids?? Is that right?

I know I am cynical but I wonder if the real reason Bob Weiner dismantled Maranatha was he knew he was losing control. He knew if he took a sabatical and left for awhile for "counseling" he would lose everything (Bob knew what he created). By breaking up Maranatha in a controlled demolition he could at least get to still keep Gainsville and all the assets associated with it. All roads just don't lead to Rome, some lead to Gainsville. I remember when Maranatha was dismantled and my friend was telling me, see what character Bob has he allowed for the dismantling of Maranatha I did'nt buy it I don't think he had a choice.

I hope that Steve Murrell is half the man everyone thinks he is and he can help reform this place. EN needs major reform it is to close to Maranatha in its present form. When the goldfish warn you about barracudas please don't tell the goldfish, "hey thats in the past nothing to fear from those pesky barracudas, we know they came from the same pond.... don't worry they've changed, everything is fine", their changing.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/angry.gif

(Message edited by 40days40years on November 03, 2005)

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

40days,
I was asked to baby sit a EN Pastor's kids. The first time, I watched the kids for about three hours. When the pastor came home, I was standing there with my hand out expecting to be payed and he just said thank you - bye. It was very confusing. I was suckered into babysitting free a few more times. Then I started becoming unavailable. One time, he asked if I could watch his kids. I said no. He said that he already told his children I would be watching them and they would be so hurt and dissapointed. He had used his "dissapointment" to manipulate me into doing things for him before, so I just said I was sorry and would not do it. He mentioned his kids dissapointment to me again at least three times to try to guilt me into babysitting for free for him. But, I wouldn't do it.

Later, this same pastor talked me into taking in a recent graduate into my home while they built their ministry - did their own fund raising. It turned out to be a horrible experience. This kid was trained very well on how to raise money but was doing no ministry. I would come home from work for lunch and find them still in bed. This person was raising money for themselves and MSI/EN but had no accountability to anyone other than financial giving their percentage to MSI/EN.

Don't feel sorry for the guys raising their own funds. They are trained well on how to get money without doing any work. They learn very quickly how to make the students and congregation do everything for them. In the 6 months that I put up with this "minister" in my home, they never did a thing to help - didn't even take out their own garbage. Lesson 1 seems to be entitlement.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

lc Thanks for the insight, good for you for standing up to your disapointed pastor. You could have said a few bucks will end the disapointment but I know that would have been way to cheeky. O.K I will stop feeling sorry for these guys raising their own funds I had know idea it was like that. My semi friend in Maranatha (the one who turned me in for being critical) use to make his rounds to churches in our area to raise support and he was good at it, some would say that they would like to help but we have our own missionaries to support. I do believe he was doing Gods work but he had an outreach to international students. He played a lot of soccer and had a lot activities with the international kids but did not have time for me. Entitlement--Yep, it takes me years to figure stuff like this out. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/talker.gif

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Yes, exploiting codependency from students and new believers at an early stage perpetuates a caste system. This is not the mark of Kingdom but of empire! Serving man and serving the Kingdom are two different things and it requires maturity and strength of character to be able to discern the two and respond accordingly. The fact that you were gullible enough to take a babysitting job without agreeing terms shows just how much he had you in his sway. The fact that you expected some type of financial recompense as well shows that you were not even prepared enough for servicing his requirements and that he thought he could just manipulate instead of indoctrinate you into compliance.

Again the whole system relies on the relative emotional and spiritual health of it's particular head leader and the leaders below him.

That is why a system such as EN requires seasonal purges and checkups and always will. Perhaps the idea of translocal apostles or other Jesuit inquisition type leaders floating around can serve this role. I say empower the congregation with a stronger eldership and lessen the authority of a single senior leader. All this will need to be done over time. Remember that EN is a relatively young ministry that has been through a sharp learning curve over the last 25 years. I agree with the idea that the next generation of EN leaders will be much more mature and spiritually healthy if the current senior leadership can show enough humility and guts to allow that to happen.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

truthseeker, thank you. I do try my best to state either facts, personal first hand experiences, or reasonable suppositions, and to also try and clearly differentiate among them.

cymbrogi, point taken. I *would* like to know what EN really believes at heart though so that one could even make a decision whether to agree or disagree - preferably before making the decision to join, which was not a luxury I had when I joined what I thought was a church similar to classical Pentecostal churches like the A/G or Church of God-Cleveland, but in actuality was moving further away from that the longer it was in fellowship with MSI/EN. (Obviously newly born-again Christians are always going to find out later, but mature Christians are another story. Which makes it even more critical so that new Christians will be in a healthy spiritual environment where they'll be matured in the sound doctrine of the faith!) Or whether it goes outside the bounds of what is considered historic, orthodox Protestant Christianty or not, as in the modalism issue which appears to have been addressed at the top and on the surface, but hasn't yet been addressed yet in all the individual churches which still have the "old" version... or maybe even possibly individuals who might themselves be modalists, knowingly or not. (As an aside, I was poking around on Bill Hamon's website yesterday and it's fairly apparent he may be a modalist too. I bring this up even though he's not EN he is a part of the larger NAR/resurgent Latter Rain movement and was quoted favorably by both RB and JL in their books.)

There are probably areas in which you or I can and probably do respectfully agree and/or disagree, which even though we may respect each other's positions in love and view each other as co-laborers in Christ, might even make an impact on where you choose to fellowship vs. where I choose to fellowship. Or to give an example from, hmm, "my" side of the "camp" on this board, I'm pretty sure there are areas where Speakword and I don't agree theologically too (I hope you don't mind I used that as an example, Speak). But they are in non-essential areas - on the Christian biggies like the full manhood and deity of Christ, the Trinity, etc. we are in full agreement and unity in Christ.

Another area on which we apparently agree is that Christ alone is the Head of the church, and a pyramidical leadership structure in which power is concentrated in a few top leaders (or "Christ by proxy" leadership, similar to the Catholic church) has some inherent issues, as Speakword noted above.

Even the original, foundational apostles did not exercise pyramidical or Christ-by-proxy authority, with all the authority they had. See Philemon. Paul *could* have exercised dictatorial authority but instead chose to appeal to people to "do the right thing" in love of their own free will. The Acts apostles also made sure that each church had local elders in place who directed the affairs of the local body, which despite all the documented problems we do know about in the epistles, didn't exactly require Apostle Paul to zoom half way across the planet on a moment's notice, like we see with some of today's apostles and apostolic churches.

I think I have an idea what the most prevalent working theologies in EN are, but with all the rapid revisions in ENLI curriculum, etc. it's very much a moving target. Even what was taught as recently as last year might or might not be considered an official, semi-official or even acceptable teaching.

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on November 03, 2005)

(Message edited by ulyankee on November 03, 2005)

[athalia (athalia)]

Ginger and/or Ulyankee
I am new to this today and have been reading posts. I probably haven't read enough, but how do you know this internal information about EN? Are you involved? Just trying to sort this out. Thanks,
Athalia

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Hi athalia, I'm no longer a member of an EN church - I've been out for about a year and a half now. Most of what I know is through researching publicly available records and lots of additional reading &amp; research.

[athalia (athalia)]

Thanks ulyankee. Scary stuff to sort through!
Athalia

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi all Catching up thank you again Ul for your open eye and excellent research; it is hard to see those footprints although they are there for the discerning eye, and ear to hear. This is more difficult to admit that we gave time, and sometimes lifeblood to this cause. If we had the internet things would have been different. Praise God for that. Isn't there a scripture about letting go of the old to get the newskin?}

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi all- I am hopefully on the page, so to speak...

to Cymbrogi, the welsh man whom wears kilts, according to his own post...
Looking for your response to Ib's post of Oct 31. and you refer to this catholic idea of Mary on another thread . Ib says
"since you brought Catholicism.."
and asks kindly for a response. you responded to my post to truthseeker, so I am hoping you would do that for Ib, since it was addressed to you.

[dazzla (dazzla)]

ulyankee,

Thanks for replying to one of my earlier questions about prophesy, the link you provided was very helpful and have bookmarked.

Since re-visting this site and reading ginger,coppertree and your posts, in particular yours today at 10.28 it really has compounded my thoughts and questions about where I am right now.

As you may recall I'm a new christian and was "saved" by EN where I live here in SE Asia. Whilst many of the incidents people have come forward with occur due to "leadership" issues that I have not evidenced here in Asia its almost impossible to ignore those "at the top" prayer is literally my only option.

I have many questions due largely to my lack of exposure to other Christian doctrines I have been tempted to attend other churches to see for myself, however I don't want to start church hopping.
I don't want to deflect this board with nonrelated questions but wanted to know if you or any others are willing to help me field questions , seperately from this board. Questions are mainly geared around Lordship, Cell Groups, "Spiritual DNA", Covenant relationships and some of the more theological issues raised.

Sorry to ask for someones time but am really seeking for scriptural truths.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

dear dazzla, you can write me anytime at ulyankee@yahoo.com.

blessings,
ulyankee

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

<font color="119911">coppertree--

I don't think I ever said I was Welsh, LOL. The reason why I never responded to Ibuprofen's post I thought was fairly obvious. 1) My reference to Guy Fawkes day was an allusion to fireworks, not Catholicism and 2) much more importantly, I don't even consider his question a valid or good question. To answer it would be to agree to some of the premises of the question, which I don't. It was (unintentionally in my opinion) asked in a similar structure as the classic question, "Are you still beating your wife?" Any response would be a bad response.

In the spirit of what you may be asking, however, I will pose a different question and answer it:
<font color="000000">Cymbrogi, do you see any similarities in how EN has handled the sexual immorality committed by Tony Fetchel and the sexual abuse crimes committed by certain priests in the Catholic Church?</font>

My answer:
<font color="000000">None.</font>

But alas, this question and answer belongs on another thread, not the one on finances.

--SB</font>

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Well Crmybrogi ( which means men from wales) I will ask , my friend Titus to answer, as I believe, he sees this quite clearly althoughI think you already know the answer. How ever my question still, as yet awaits your reply.

(Message edited by coppertree on November 05, 2005)

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

<font color="119911">coppertree--

Like titus, I didn't understand what you meant. Try again, or ask a question.


Titus--

Ha! Unlike others, I've answered every valid question asked of me (so far). That's gonna change soon, so you better get your questions in now!

Did you like my picture? My eyes aren't blue, that's for sure.

--SB</font>

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

<font color="119911">ps-- coppertree, the meaning of my screen name that you gave is bogus or at least is one I've never seen. Where did you get it?</font>

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Titus, Sorry about my response to Cymbrogi self posed question about Tony and the Catholic church; I believe now, it is Bill that wrote about that. Although I could be mistaken about the authorship. I got you confused in that response, sorry.
I am working on a thesis in this area somewhat and found the English Welsh, Anglo-Saxon Dictionary By John Clark Hill 1911, now published by Pearson. There are modern English to Welsh dictionaries, that say the meaning is country men from Wales, although the Welsh call themselves Cmybrogi ( with different endings depending on use). Yes ,Wales or Welsh is what the middle English speakers called anyone who was not anglo-saxon even men form Spain.}

(Message edited by coppertree on November 06, 2005)

[percutaneous (percutaneous)]

The discussion here is always interesting. I have done some research of my own on this interesting Ron Lewis conversation. While no expert, I have discovered the following issues that should be clarified:
1. Regarding the controversy at UNC over the Christian fraternity, some of the members of the fraternity attended Ron Lewis' church, but there was no official connection. Many of the fraternity brothers have left KPIC or never been a part of it. If the goal of some is to connect Lewis to bad publicity, yes, people have tried to make the connection. Here, however, the connection is tenuous at best.
2. Ron Lewis is no longer the registered agent for the Youth Life Foundation of the Triangle. Some of the board members are members of KPIC, but I do not think it is a majority.
3. I always understood that the Mercedes and Escalade owned by Ron Lewis were gifts made by wealthy individuals, not paid for by his congregation. I understand he no longer owns the Escalade.

Ibuprofen, the impression I get is that Ron Lewis is supported financially by many individuals and organizations outside of his local church. Why do you insist on arguing that he is burdening the members of KPIC financially?

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

percuteneous, you are right, thanks, Chuck Kinne is the registered agent and chairman of Youth Life Foundation of the Triangle, incorporated in 2002. Ron Lewis is the registered agent and president of Youth Life and Community Foundation, which was incorporated in 1999. I got the two confused.

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

percutaneous, thank you for sharing and clearing up the misunderstanding regarding the two similarly named foundations. It is always good to have accurate information.

Regarding the Mercedes 430CLK, it was financed for Ron Lewis by GMAC. This is publicly available information. Links to this information have been provided. Anyone telling you Ron Lewis did not purchase this expensive luxury automobile is being disingenuous at best.

I am not aware of the Cadillac Escalade you reference. I am aware of a GMC Yukon XL, though. As you feel it valid to share your “understandings and impressions”, I will share with you my understanding of who paid for the GMC Yukon XL. Based on what I have been told, KPIC paid for the GMC Yukon XL. However, I do not know personally that this is the case. I have the emails of a few people I do not know, who have shared this with me. You are correct about current ownership, though. He no longer owns the Yukon. It was signed over to his ex-wife when they divorced, according to the separation agreement.

You write:
"Ibuprofen, the impression I get is that Ron Lewis is supported financially by many individuals and organizations outside of his local church."

Did this “impression” you share come from the same information or person that led you to believe the Mercedes was a “gift from wealthy individuals”? I wonder how many other impressions and understandings there are floating around KPIC that are based on inaccurate and/or patently false information?

Percutaneous, I am open to being wrong about KPIC and Ron Lewis. I will honestly evaluate anything you have showing me the error of my ways. I will tell you that I put very little faith in statements made by the people that have every incentive to keep these things a secret, though. Frankly, the fact that KPIC works so hard to keep their financial picture a secret from their congregants is very telling. I can only think of one reason why a church would not share ALL the financial information with the very people that contribute the money. The current situation with Phil Bonasso leaps to the forefront of my mind.

Ron Lewis enjoys a lifestyle unattainable by over 99% of America, and he does so on the backs of innocent peoples faith in God. The fact that the stream of funds paying for his life of affluence and privilege may come from more than one entity controlled by Ron Lewis or his cronies is not relevant. The origination of the funding is the same, the pockets of his congregants. To believe anything else is simply a refusal to face reality. Frankly, the only example I can find in the bible for enjoying an affluent lifestyle on the backs of the congregation as practiced by Ron Lewis are from the Pharisees. I do not see any resemblance between the lifestyle of Ron Lewis and the lifestyle of Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, etc…

You asked me:
"Ibuprofen…Why do you insist on arguing that he is burdening the members of KPIC financially?”

I have personally worked with those who were financially victimized by KPIC and Ron Lewis. I have seen the damage done to people who thought that Ron Lewis and KPIC were honorable, men of God who were there to help them. I have seen the families that had no Christmas presents for their children, yet gave well in excess of 20% of their GROSS income to tithe and support the many different ‘projects’ of KPIC and MSI/EN. People who could not afford it. To push low income people into such dire financial straits is unconscionable. (To push anyone into such a position is unconscionable...)

I have personally seen the affluent lifestyle enjoyed by Ron Lewis. The way Ron Lewis lives on the backs of his congregants is grotesque, and I’ve not yet addressed the whole issue of servitude expected by Ron Lewis. I have to pay others to baby-sit my children, clean my house, do my yard work, run my errands, etc. etc. etc…, which if the way it should be if I want others to do for me. I do not expect my employees to do these things for me, paid or free. For Ron Lewis to expect this kind of unpaid servitude from his congregation is beyond my realm of comprehension.

Why is it again that I think of the Pharisees and not Jesus when I observe the life of Ron Lewis???

Percutaneous, I wonder if you feel Jesus would look at the lifestyle of Ron Lewis and commend him for it?


ibuprofen

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

percutaneous,
It sounds like you got the official answer instead of the historical answer. Keep digging. Back in the day, RL would brag on his fraternity at UNC as he introduced their step performances. As far as the Youth Life Foundation, it may not be officially under RL's control. But, Chuck Kinne is one of his faithful disciples. The first life center in Durham was organized by RL and kpic long before the Youth Life Foundation of RTP was set up. Chuck is one of the people being "sent" by RL to start the church in Scotland. Sounds like your sources are giving you half answers. Ask around about what happened to the Escalade. Find out what benefit there was to the giver of these gifts. I heard a story about why RL got a gift of a mercades and also took a loan out for the same car. I won't repeat it because it is second hand info. So, ask yourself. Keep searching and keep an open mind. God bless.

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Frankly, I think if so many stories are circulating around about this guy then he must either be an incredible man of God who has been slandered and attacked by a satanic conspiracy or he is just another one of the EN pastors who has skeletons in his closet.

This points again to the failure of the hierarchical bishopry in EN and the need for stronger presbyteries.

[percutaneous (percutaneous)]

Ibuprofen,

To what extent do you think the leaders of a local church should have authority over the finances. Is extravagance, in and of itself, wrong? What about King David's fund raising for the temple Solomon built? What about Moses having all of the Israelites sacrifice the gold they got in Egypt to build the Temple?

I hear directly from members of Pastor Lewis' church that a lot of the financial sacrifices were for the building fund. They wanted to pay cash for it, but I understand they still did not raise enough and had to take out a mortgage.

They lost many members and even several elders during this time of fund raising - many who had pledged large amounts or consistent giving. But the Pastor was faithful to build a vast church building anyway - I think Jim Laffoon had seen it in a vision (and one of the associate Pastors had it confirmed when he saw a similar design in Charisma Magazine).

Anyway, do you think it would have been right to stop raising funds just because members and vistors were offended that the church ledership asked for money every Sunday? Once they had a vision from God of what the building should look like, should they have compromised and built something smaller, so they wouldn't have to raise as much money?

For the sake of comparison, the church in Northern Virginia had raised a lot of money (many tithing professional athletes) for a church building, but later decided that a typical church building would not be the best stewardship of the funds that God had provided them. They invested in an income-producing Water Park instead. The church is not four walls, after all.

In North Carolina, Pastor Lewis tries to be faithful to the heavenly vision for a building, but comes up short on the finances. In Virginia, Pastor Fuller raises sufficient finances and his leadership team decides to be more creative stewards of those funds and creates a church/Water Park.

Is it not the local church leadership that ultimately should decide? And if the local church delegates that authority to the Senior Pastor and the local elders approve, what is the problem?

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

percutaneous
I can't believe the twist you just put on that story. Wow. Do you have any idea what the original vision and estimated price was? It was no where near $12 million. The original fund raising was for a $3 million building. Plus, it was supposed to be an academy for children by the time it was done. Most people did finish their pledges and more. The original pledges would have built a $3 million building debt free. When they went over budget, everyone dug deep and the final fundraising was double the original estimate of $3 million. But, the leadership was very poor stewarts of this money. They spent with an attitude of prosperity and entitlement. Never was the estimate for the building as high as the final cost. Eldership leaving did not happen until well after they overspent on the building. It had more to do with the divorce and the way RL "stepping aside" from head pastor was handled. Many of those members and elders were faithful to finish their pledges. So, do not blame them for the debt that church is in. Also, the vision, changed considerably from the original vision of building an academy for the local kids. So, there was no faithfulness to a heavenly vision. I was told that the original vision was "no longer our vision". Someone is filling your head with a bunch of junk.

This is so typical. Pastors do as they please and put down the congregation when they don't get the support they want. I saw people sacrifice for years to finish their pledges. When their pledges were done and they started attending to their homes which were falling apart from neglect, they were told they were shrinking back and God was not pleased - that they had a problem with money. RL clearly spent more money than he had coming in in pledges. Poor planning. Yes, some people did not finish their pledged. I can tell you one man pledged $100,000 that he could not pay because after RL's wife got out, his wife left too (and of course, he wouldn't leave with her so divorce) Maybe instead of blaming the people RL burned out, he should take a little responsibility. percutaneous, you should really not speak to something you know nothing about.

(Message edited by lc_20 on November 08, 2005)

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

percutaneous , I am currently in a wonderful church that is raising money for the past 4 years to buy a building. My current church did bought a building and we eventually move in after 2 years of raising money. There are much needed renovation. And still there is ongoing renovation.
My current pastor have quarterly show the church how much money was raised and how much money was spent for the church building, he would open the books and set aside one to two sunday evening every year , open the books for everybody to see and VOTE and discuss if we should spent this money here and there. The members 1,000 people. No arm twisting. There are pledges, but not everybody gave. The church is short but we get by. Its OPEN. We are not struggling, the pastor understand some people lost their job or money is tight. No manipulation nor arm twisting. there was a time the church was extremely short of money for the building, 3 pastor took out a mortgage from their homes to come up with the money. That includes our SENIOR PASTOR, and 2 TOP pastors in our church.

Now, in Phil Bonasso church back in '98. He also said that Our church needed a building, and lo behold , they found one that is twice smaller for the congregation. Anyway, somebody donated a lot of money in our church to pay off the mortgage. That was also announced in the church.
Just last year or this year, I found out, those were all lies , according to public records, the church building WAS NEVER PAID OFF and still holding a mortgage. Where did those money went ??? hmmmm.... Not only that, the building was bought back in '98. They just moved in just early THIS YEAR LOL (like after 7-8 years) !!! ALL those years of raising money for the building funds...for "renovation". do you think they will open their books on that, on all those years ?
RL is no different from Phil Bonasso. Now, Phil Bonasso live high so does Ron lewis, in an extremely small church. SO does Brett Fuller. There are questionable tactics how they raise money and ALL OF THEM REFUSE to have those BUILDING FUNDS AUDITED.
And the way RL people explained to you on how they raise money , there is hint of arm twisting, lies and manipulation.
There is no open books, no discussion how and where the money was spent, no votes for the people. Phil Bonasso members back then , less than 150 people. RL less than 200. brett Fuller, less than 400.
Now to have lesser people, its easier to organize , vote and discuss the building funds.

Percutaneous, really who is supplying you all these misinformation because its quite laughable.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

I found this on a website called Comprehensive Christian, which includes a Christian Q&amp;A ministry (http://www.comprehensivechristian.com/yourquestions.asp), for lack of a better thing to call it. They occasionally get questions about Every Nation. I saw this (http://www.comprehensivechristian.com/yourquestions.asp?page=2&amp;order=number&amp;category=all ) on there and it just about broke my heart, like my heart has been grieved over and over again since February 2004 when I started waking up to the truth... Please, PLEASE, those who have ears to hear and eyes to see... whose heart is still beating... please see, listen and understand. The spirit of Maranatha is not dead. It lives on to this day... Containment will not make it go away. Adjustments will not make it go away. Firings or sabbaticals will not make it go away. Corporate restructuring will not make it go away. Full repentance alone is the solution.

blessings,
ulyankee

Question Please help me. I've begun to see the truth about so much of the word of faith and the third wave movements and how they have infiltrated many churches, including my own. Because I've stated some concerns, I've been ostrcized, considered rebellious, etc. I hurt so badly right now that I wish I could die. A precious family member is very sick and quite dependent on me for care. I think sometimes that if this person didn't need me so, suicide would be the only answer. If all is deceit and truth is irrelavent - people think I'm wrong and probably unsaved because I can't go with the "status quo" am I going to hell anyway? I'm so devestated; I've loved the Lord Jesus since I was a small child, now confusion reigns. I cannot fiance the extreme styles of these "teachers" nor believe we are in the new third wave as C. Peter Wagner insists. Its infiltrating everything and no one believes me. I'm falling physically and emotionally--God help me. I have cried for yrs for the truth...and now I believe I see glimpses of it...am I crazy? At a time when I need the body of Christ more than ever with my dear sick one, where are they? They say they are not "hospital churches"...they have missions to build, etc. "Whose missions"? Have you ever seen or heard of the mansions of Rice Broocks, Phil Bonasso, Jim Laffoon. etc? These so called apostles are above accountability. Is there any hope in the church of today...? Is there any hope for me? I'm almost sick and can seem to go no more. Please pray for me.

Answer The Lord is still on His Throne and His Truth will go forth in Righteousness throughout the earth. For now He has said that things will get worse and impostors would abound everywhere especially in the churches. There are the remnant who will be faithful to His truth and walk in love and holiness. Usually, those in the limelight will be people pleasers or worldlings and not true servants of God so we cannot look at them and feel down. We ought to be encouraged that God will guide us when we look to Him alone. Read the Word diligently in order to obey and do obey and pray and the Lord will lift your spirit and lead you to a place of truth where you can worship with likeminded folk and be loved and supported as well. No matter what we are going through, our Blessed Lord will always help us and prosper us.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

ulyankee - did you notice that this person was told the same thing I was told when I got sick about "hospital churches"? What a painful thing to hear from your church after years of serving and giving. I do pray for this annonymous person - God bless them with peace, love, joy and health.

[aletheia (aletheia)]

<font color="0000ff">ulyankee - did you notice that this person was told the same thing I was told when I got sick about "hospital churches"? </font>

Ic20 and Ulyankee - I also found that sad post months ago on the internet and wondered if Ic had written it..I wish I had been there to comfort that person at the time...it broke my heart, too.

a.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Aletheia,
Sadly, that was not me. Just another person with a similar testimony. God have mercy on these "men of God".

[ibuprofen (ibuprofen)]

percutaneous,

You ask me, "What is the problem."

Have you read the link provided by ulyankee?
Have you read what has been shared here in this forum by ginger1, lc_20, ulyankee and many others?
Are you aware of just how many people have been victimized spiritually and financially by these 'men of God'?

Sadly, I feel that I need to ask you 'What is the problem?'
How can you profess to be a Christian yet show such disdain for this needless suffereing?

Do you think all of these people are lying? Do you?

I asked you earlier and I will ask again:
Percutaneous, do you feel Jesus would look at the lifestyle of Ron Lewis and commend him for it?

ibuprofen

[40days40years (40days40years)]

lc and others,

You know in the late 80's when I left mcm one of the reasons why was I kept on thinking that these guys are demanding a 100% one way commitment. I thought if I got really sick and disabled, how long would Bob and ilk take care of me? How long would it take for them to bundle me off to my parents?, (with the logic that is my parents job). The little answer in my head was always "not long at all". Now that is o.k but if that is the case then don't manipulate people with the 100% commitment message to your own kingdom. Not a hospital church, what a joke.

I read that a lot of Moonies were dumped off on their parents doorsteps when deathly ill. The same parents that were suppose to be avoided when these folks were healthy. I guess in that case the illness is a blessing.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

40days,
I wish I had given this some thought while I was healthy. Yes, I do consider my illness a blessing. Without it, I would probably still be in EN more committed than ever and I would still be demanding 100% from others. Like I have posted before, I regret who I was and I am grateful to God for waking me up - as painful as that process was.

[arcecat (arcecat)]

This is something that I always wondered about but never did ask my pastor about.
Back in 94 or 95 Morning Star in lawrece was meeting in a storefront type of building and we had a guest speaker. I think the speaker was a missionary to Africa. Well he said that he owned a church building in town and that he was going to give it to our church. I found it very odd since there was still a congregation meeting at the church. I never heard anything more about it though. Morning Star in Lawrence got it's own building maybe 3 yrs ago or so.

[upcase20 (upcase20)]

40days40years: One thing that puzzled me when I was a member was a girl in her mid 20's who told me she expected to die in that church, and her main concern was where the church would bury her. Mid 20's mind you! When I went back for a visit in the 90's she had married a man in the church she personally told me she didn't even like but had done so because the leaders had "given her a word". The leaders loved her. Now how's that for committment ?

[lovedeeply (lovedeeply)]

Does anyone know how much the campus workers earn? I mean, they raise support, but when do they stop? Does EN have a policy on that?

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Lovedeeply, it depends, some ranges from $800 - $2500. And I was told some people in MPD have raise up to $8000, but thats rare. My friends here have $1400 a month.

They do not stop raising support, every year, there are supporter who would drop them off. And they are required to send Newsletter and reports how and what they are doing.

The money they raise are not the problem, its some of the kids who say they are raising support and NOT doing anything at all.

[cupatea (cupatea)]

titus - was this in an EN/MSI church or a different group? If an EN one are you able to disclose which one?

[truthseeker180359 (truthseeker180359)]

I am not usually concerned by the content of this board because it is a useful forum where a variety of opinions and viewpoints can be freely expressed. However, it is quite another thing when postings put people’s lives and missions in jeopardy – and despite my several requests, the posting by “ginger1” dated 18 October which names the EN missionary still has not been edited to delete the name.

I subsequently took the time and trouble to track down the person concerned because – as I suspected – he was basically duped into providing information which was then used to mis-represent the issue of the distribution of money from the World Partners fund. “Ginger1” basically used the “carrot” of implying that there was someone who wanted to give him a personal gift, but who was first trying to ascertain if he had received money that they had donated to the World Partners fund. He replied as follows:

“World Partners and MPD are two separate things. The former (WP) is a collective missions fund for various missions needs and projects. the latter (MPD) is the vehicle for Every Nation staff or missionaries like me to raise their personal and ministry support. Every MPD staff has an account number. Ours is XXXXX. People who want to partner with us do it through MPD designating it to XXXXX and XXXXX XXXXXX under account number XXXXXXX in our Los Angeles corporate office. Not through World Partners.

If your friends gave toward World Partners that's where their money went. I commend and encourage them to keep on supporting our World Partners program.”

So please let’s just be honest in the way we conduct ourselves on this board. It is one thing to be working towards pressurizing EN to adopt greater financial accountability, but in this instance the means clearly did not justify the end. And “ginger1” (who interestingly did not use her own name “Sxxxxx” when writing to this missionary) – I still challenge you to remove this man’s name from your October 18 posting.

Truthseeker

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Truthseeker,
Another option for you, if you don't get the response you need from this post, it to write to the factnet "ghost". They can delete the name for you. Sometimes, it takes a few days to get a response, but I do believe this site is being actively monitored.
I agree that we should be careful not to misreprestent the financial situation. I too have had communication errors which confused world partners with specific mpd accounts and had trouble getting the funds where I had intented them to go. It is confusing and if the giver doesn't make sure they do it right, the intended receiver may not get the funds. Thanks for clarifying.

I believe Ginger's was questioning where the world partner money goes and what happens to the high percentage of mpd money that EN keeps. I believe it has been acknowledged that pastors do get a percentage of the money coming into their mpd programs (less than 90% if I have been keep up correctly).

(Message edited by lc_20 on November 12, 2005)

[hasbeen (hasbeen)]

Lovedeeply, As for support raising, been there, done that, didn't like it, stopped it. The way it works is during your week long training on how to raise support you fill out a financial worksheet to figure out what your needs are. Depending on what city you're in they will raise that goal to a certain percentage, ie. NY has a higher cost of living so you'll add a certain percentage. If you raise more than your goal, which is "good" since you will have some people miss months, etc. (doesn't happen too often you make more than the goal) they set aside the excess for those months you don't make your goal or if there is a special need which you will have to request it. (Any staffers, correct me if I'm wrong) That is what was told to me. They do keep good tabs on how you're doing via your monthly newsletters and also through your support coach which is usually your campus minister/director/pastor. So the excess goes to somewhat of a savings account...which of course bears no interest...at least for you.

If you have ever received any newsletter from a campus minister they usually tell you what is happening on campus, not exactly what they are doing. When you first raise support, they don't let you go on campus until you finish raising that support...thus the scenario lc ran into and the lack of personal involvement on what is happening on campus. The idea is, they (MSI/EN) want you to devote all your time to raise support and not get distracted with real work...at least that's my take on it. Hope this answers your question.

[hasbeen (hasbeen)]

and yes, every year they go out raising support during the summer months to reconnect with current supporters for referrals and/or upping what they currently give. Because of attrition they do raise support yearly.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Hey hasbeen,
Love the name. Thanks for validating my story from November 3rd related to letting a "campus minister" share my home with me. Crazy, this person had no responsibilities other than fundraising and I think had about $2000 coming in a month. I did hear the same thing as you. That any extra fundraising to your account is saved by msi/en with no interest. I knew someone who had been given an extra gift with which they were going to buy a car. But, they had to go through a battle for the money because it put them above their "goal".

I hope you are doing well now and your life is well balanced and joyful.

[j2theperson (j2theperson)]

***and yes, every year they go out raising support during the summer months to reconnect with current supporters for referrals and/or upping what they currently give. Because of attrition they do raise support yearly.***

Back when I was attending the Southbay church and the USC campus group, I experienced a crisis with my discipler during the time that Jed and Sarah Walker (the USC campus ministers) were doing their yearly MPD. I asked Sarah if I could meet with her to discuss the problem (which I certainly considered very serious and did not think could be put off), and she told me that she couldn't meet with me until a month later because she was busy doing MPD. This is basically the same as saying "I'm sorry, I can't minister to you because I'm busy raising ministry support."

That whole Southbay church was a joke. ::rolls eyes::

[lagrl (lagrl)]

lc_20
I totally agree with you. I personally have been around people raising support and these people really did not do that much during the day. EN expects that you will make phonecalls at night and then have appointments scheduled during the day. I think the goal is something like 2 appointments a day. But I have personally never experienced any person that has been able to schedule 2 appointments per day. The problem with the people that I saw is that they would not have very many appointments to go to. Thus, during the day they would just sit around because they could not participate in any of the campus activities but did not have any appointments to attend. It took one of the persons that I knew who was trying to raise support almost two years to raise the money. This person also finally met their goal by lowering their monthly goal instead of raising the full amount needed.

Another thing that I thought was misleading is that the person would send out newsletters that would indicate what was going on on campus, and by reading the newsletter, you would think that this person was on campus; not that the person was still sitting at home trying to complete their partnership team.

During the time that this person was raising support, this person had to live off of the support that the person was raising which was meager. This person had a lot of debt and could not pay it. There were credit card companies calling this person all of the time. And the support coach really did not do anything; the support coach just checked to see if this person made the requisite phone calls.

The other problem was that this person ran out of people to call, so by the end this person had no one to call and no appointments. I always thought that it would have been best for the person to have at least gotten a part-time job to help the person pay the bills. Because in reality this person got into more debt trying to raise support and this person was really not doing anything during the day.

I used to feel bad for this person because the person was a college graduate but was forced to live such a poor lifestyle. However, after talking to the person I realized the sense of entitlement that had been instilled in the person by Pastor Phil. The person thought that it was not the person's fault for not being able to raise support and convince people to give support, but it was other christians fault for not giving to this person. One time the person actually said with a snotty attitude that "friends needed to start making money so that they could support" this person. I thought that was a very telling statement about the condition of the person's heart.

P.S. Sorry for using "this person" so much, but I did not want to give away the person's gender because that could possibly give away my identity, which I do not want to do at this point.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Do I have this right? - before you can preach the gospel on campus you have to have your support lined up? What about Paul the greatest apostle (imho)- he made tents to support himself so he could preach to the lost and at times was loathe to put burdens on the lambs he birthed into the kingdom.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

40days - they just focus on how to make money. The one who stayed with me was either sleeping during the day, partying at night, making a mess of my house or listening to tapes about what a privelege it was for people to be allowed to give them money. This went well beyond the time it took them to get to their "goal". During those 6 months, they had developed the habit of doing nothing for their money and continued to do so after being allowed to minister. Again, there was no accountability.

When I would ask, what did you do for ministry today, I would get answers like... I journaled, read my bible and prayed for the campuses - see my long prayer list. This person would then go out and party with friends until 3:00 am (of course they saw this as ministry) and come home and wake me up (I was trying to sleep because I had a job to go to every morning). I often thought they would have been better off if they had gotten a job and learned the value of the dollar before being handed so much money with no accountability.

We had organized a deal where I gave a certain amount into their ministry and they was supposed to pay me that same amount in rent once the goal was reached. After the reached goal, I got all kinds of excuses as for why money wasn't coming my way. There were international phone calls being made with my phone which I had to fight for the money for too. Interestingly, while there was no money for rent, things started showing up in the house for this person like new cloths, new shoes, new laptop... they were being blessed while I was being railroaded. So, finally, I kicked this person out of my house.

The first thing they did when they got out of my house was tell everyone in the church that I kicked them out, bought a cell phone (which they should have done from the start but told me they had no money for), and started living off of some other poor sucker. I had all kinds of people in the church - telling me how evil I was.

The good news is the campus minister that was "responsible" for this person and who had been bad mouthing me is now out of EN and has repented and streightened out their life. This "minister" who was raising support, finally got out also and last I heard was living a relatively normal life with difficulty of course after living the priveleged life. The pastor that was organizing these types of deals is also the pastor who expected me to watch their kids for free... he is still in EN but was "sent" out to another country. I was gratful to God to see him go. Because he left, I stuck around MSI/EN a few more years but then I saw that these abuses were not just from one pastor. They were systematic. I was constantly expected to give everything I had and when I got sick, no one even made one phone call to see if I was ok.

So, long story short - no tent makers. I knew one person who had the intent of being a tent maker. He had a good job and a family when he joined our church. But he got "sent" to an area where he couldn't find a job. It would be like Paul moving somewhere where they didn't need tents. So, last I heard he was not doing to well as a tent maker any more.

[lagrl (lagrl)]

40days40years,
Yes, people doing MPD are not supposed to be ministering on the campus. I have to say that I had a little different experience than lc_20 in that one of the people that I saw raising support was not allowed to go out and hang out with people (except on the person's sabbath). My church was pretty strict, but the person also did not have any appointments, so the person did nothing all day. The person would read their bible, journal and pray for about an hour (max 2) but that is pretty much it.

This same person also did not have the gift of drawing people in and being able to convince them to give money; hence the reason that this person had to decrease their support goal and why it took so long to raise support. This person was not at all living high off the horse; in fact the person should have been living with a family that would not have charged rent because this person had a lot of trouble paying the rent. There were months that this person would have to live off $500 when rent was about $400.

However, I know that other churches are a little bit different in that they allow people who are doing MPD to participate in nightly activities. I know another person who raised support and was allowed to go out at night and hang out with church friends while raising support.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

lc_20, lagrl, what both of you say just sounds so bizarre, NOT allowed to preach on campus? (Steve Murell I hope you read this) This is 20 times worse than my ex Maranatha church (the dispersal of the gospel did not depend on raising support before you could start) BIZARRE. I mean, would it not make sense to let somebody get a part time job?, have him go out on campus immedeatly. He could still raise support and live in a house with a bunch of EN brothers who could give him a good deal on a room and fellowship with him. lc, those who called you evil, you should have invited those people to take in the minister after the other sucker got tired.

----BIZARRE------

[lagrl (lagrl)]

40days40years
The rationale behind not allowing people to get part-time jobs is because raising support is supposed to be a full-time job. I think that EN is afraid that if an MPD person gets a part-time job or if they are not on campus the MPD person will have no incentive to develop their support team. Also, if the person is working, then their attention will not fully be on the campus as well as they would have excuses as to why their partnership teams had not been developed.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

lagrl, do you know whether it's true or not if MPD folks are allowed to enroll in group health insurance only after they've raised their total support commitment, or a certain majority percentage of that commitment?

[hasbeen (hasbeen)]

I know this question was geared towards lagrl, but I know when I was in MPD, you are suppose to have some kind of health insurance. You weren't allowed not to have it. They first had this brotherhood thing where every month you send, I believe, $50 to a person on the list who has a need (medical) so that was the "insurance." Then the year that I became a campus minister, they had BS California...which for out of staters would cover squat. It was taken out of your "paycheck" so that you wouldn't get taxed on it. If things have changed, I am not aware. But they did "strong arm" everyone to join because they had to have a certain amount of people to be in the network to get the deal from Blue Shield Ca. I knew a few people who wanted to stay with the brotherhood thing but were met with some leaders and "convinced" to change their plan.

[lagrl (lagrl)]

hasbeen is correct. I was not aware of EN's former health insurance plan (brotherhood), but my friend did have medical insurance that was taken out of my friend's paycheck before the person even saw it. I also got the impression that insurance coverage was mandatory, and the coverage was through Blue Shield. I am not sure, however, if you had to raise a certain amount before you received the coverage. The money was taken straight out of this person's paycheck. This person also had dental insurance.

That is a vary interesting point that hasbeen brought up about out of staters. I am not sure about their coverage, but it would seem to be a rip off if you had to pay for insurance that basically did not cover you.

[hasbeen (hasbeen)]

My experience is first hand. We took that health insurance since we didn't really have any other choice. We're not in California. When my husband and I had our first child, we basically would have been better off paying for the whole thing on our own than if we had the insurance. It was a big mess. We had bills coming to us even after our child had already turned 1. It took about 2 years to clear up the mess. By that time we left VCM and got an in state insurance.

The health insurance was taken out regardless of how much you made because you HAVE TO have insurance in case of any health crisis, as explained to me. Many didn't want to have any at that time since they couldn't afford it and when you're young you never think anything major will happen. Unless policies have changed, I don't think it is any different.

lagrl, how long have you been in MSI/EN (if you don't mind my asking)?

[lagrl (lagrl)]

i have been in EN for since about 1997. I really like my church, the people in the church and the pastor. However, I have had some very bad experiences in EN and with EN pastors. I also can see the whole problem with the leadership and think that the current structure rewards the wrong type of people. I am awaiting the reforms and praying to make my final decision.

[hasbeen (hasbeen)]

I'm wondering if I ever met you. I've been in MSI/EN since '91. I'm quite familiar with a lot of people in L.A. as I've visited quite often.

I've had great experiences in the beginning but the latter parts were very bad and quickly becoming worse. (or we just found out about the worst stuff) It took my husband and I a couple of years to get over all this...more me than him. Besides coming to know the Lord, my husband is the only other reason my time in MSI/EN was worthwhile.

lagrl, thanks for sharing and not minding. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

LAGRL, wait till you hear about who is the author of this EN restructuring. Once it posted, you will know that these whole EN restructuring is a joke. Its not even Steve Murrell nor Rice Brookes.

[lagrl (lagrl)]

Ginger 1 - are you going to post it? Or do you mean wait until EN announces it?

hasbeen - No problem. You may have. I don't feel comfortable giving out any more personal information because I am still in the church. However, if you would like to correspond offline, I would be more than happy to tell you more about myself.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

ITS Phil Bonasso and MARK Foster. LOL !!!! EN have already sent it out to all churches, even my pastor friends here got it !

Thats why this EN restructuring is such a joke ! It also confirm everything that I have been posting too , especially the finances LOL !!! They worded in such a way that you don't get suspicious, but the bottom line is, it was misuse and they cannot get a clean audit.
There is more to it to though !
I will wait for somebody to post it.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Lagrl, sorry to disappoint you. There is actually no EN reform. what you see is what you get, Phil stepping down shuffled to Florida. Then finances, they are trying to correct it, the only time it will be clean my guess is 2006.

ALso you guys, according to Palos Verdez church, they audit the books and its clean, I found out why. According to the letter sent out, Phil have retained Capin to audit their books on 2004.

Of course its going to be clean on 2004, because it was already set up ! Of course Phil would not misuse the small church finances because he already knew it beforehand about the audit, he is the one who invited them. LOL !

BUT they cannot get a clean audit on MSI/EN Corp. though. Where his salary is coming from.

It such a waste of money for Palos verdez to audit the book of 2004. They should do it, years before that, at least up to year 2000.

Do you guys remember when Bill Clinton was interviewed, during his presidency ? He set up the questions and he set up the answers. He is also the one pick up the people who should ask him the question. That was in the news.
Well,this EN restructuing and letter sent out its exactly like this !

[lagrl (lagrl)]

Ginger 1,
I have a question. Why is Steve M allowing all of this? I thought that he was the one guy who was on the up and up. And that when he saw the finances he told Phil to step down. Why would he let them audit the books? Is Steve M on the up and up? Or is he passively sitting by and allowing the same behavior to happen?

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Steve M is the one who spearhead the audit of EN Corp. books, not the small church.

My guess in all this, that EN is trying to hide all this from Steve M. again. Steve will not be sitting down passively. He will definitely do something if things did not change. I can't elaborate what his plan is yet. It was pass on to me privately. The only thing I can say is wait and see.
Quite frankly I do not think there would be change. ALL these restructuring is such a joke. So just wait and see in a few months.

[hasbeen (hasbeen)]

lagrl, no problem. you can actually email me at kdjmh@yahoo.com. I still have many friends still in the L.A. church and in MSI/EN.

ginger1, i know you mentioned that the information regarding the misappropriation of funds/illegal use, etc. was taken to proper authorities. Is anything being done by these authorities? Was this question asked already? (think I'm going senile or I'm reading too many different posts trying to catch up)

Thanks

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Hasbeen, the last time I heard from the FBI was that they are overload, it will take months and years to even start looking into it. But they do have an agent thats handling it. Since it happened in Los Angeles Ca. They still have to transfer all of those documents to Los Angeles Ca. ANd sadly FBI Los Angeles Ca. is the second biggest agency in the U.S. so they are definitely overload with murder and drug dealing.I do know the IRS did start to look. And have interviewed a witness. That I can't elaborate http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

And I have not heard anything from the US attorney.
But I do remember an acquaintance that got arrested by the FBI, even though he was not working in the particular company any longer for three years. The law did finally caught on to him after 3 years. So thats what we are looking at. Several years. We get lucky if its earlier.

Reporting illegal activities to the IRS,FBI and the US Attorney is useless. What they need are facts and evidences and thats what I have sent to them and some of them I am not going to post here on factnet. I found that out after calling them for a year. LOL !
There are definite fraud, scams, tax evasion in EN. It will take time for the proper authorities to catch on.

This is the first time also that I posted whats happening.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Another thing that I need to mention , the reason why it was not taken to the police, because its not the Police job. Since a lot of money that has been raise outside of California by Phil Bonasso. Thats federal crime, not state crime. So its the FBI job. World partner is worldwide. Money coming from worldwide.

So even though they tried to clean it up now, they still have to pay for the crime that was committed in the past years. But thats only to be determined by the authorities if its a crime.

Let the law decide on some of them.
There are definite crime committed like the Mercedez convertible, that amazingly all these EN people don't want to talk about it.

[lagrl (lagrl)]

Ginger1,
Thank you very much for the info. I will wait and see.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

At least you know what to pray for. I am not worried about EN praying against it . By my experience, God does not hear their prayers anyway.

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Honorable Mention or Dishonorable Discharge?
by Steve Murrell
(This article was written for the September-October 2005 issue of Evangelicals Today with the cover theme "Honoring Your Pastor.")

Growing up in a typical American sports-crazed family, I remember going to awards banquets at the end of every football, basketball, and baseball season and watching as the coach recognized the best players with various awards. Only one player could get the MVP trophy, but in order to spread the honor, the coaches usually called out several names and gave them “honorable mention.” Those who were honorably mentioned were not THE best, but were better than the rest and thus felt honored to be mentioned at the awards banquet.

On the extreme other side of the honor coin is to be “dishonorably discharged.” This is military talk for being fired or terminated.

Honorable mention and dishonorable discharge are both based on what a person does, not on who he or she is. It is based on performance, not on position; on action, not on aptitude. There is no position on a football or basketball team that automatically gets honorable mention. Rather, it is how that position is played that gets honor or dishonor.

The Bible clearly tells us to honor several people. First, we are to honor our parents, not because we deem them honorable, but because they are parents. Honor your father and mother—which is the first commandment with a promise (Ephesians 6:2). It is not our job to decide if they are honorable; it is our job to honor them, whether they have lived honorable lives or not. Parental honor is unconditional honor.

Secondly, the Bible tells us to honor our pastors and spiritual leaders, but not unconditionally. The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching (1 Timothy 5:17). Pastors deserve our honor as they direct the church well and if they work hard teaching and preaching. Some are too lazy to be honored. Others don’t understand that spiritual leadership is actually work. Unlike parental honor, there is a condition to pastoral honor. No pastor is to be honored just because he has a card that says his title is “pastor.”

Most pastors I know in the Philippines are worthy not only of honorable mention, but of double and triple honor.

There are a few, however, who deserve a dishonorable discharge for the way they have people, mishandled God’s money, and misrepresented God’s name. They can usually be found hiding behind 1 Chronicles 16:22 and Psalm 105:15, warning people to touch not mine anointed even though they are much more annoying than anointed.

May we live to honor God and give honorable mention to the countless pastors and spiritual leaders whose lives serve as true representatives of Christ.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

This is interesting. I heard the "touch not mine anointed" many many times while in my EN church. Sounds like he is developing an understanding of what is going on in the US. I once got kicked out of a chair in someone's house because it was the chair of an annointed person... had to laugh at that. When I laughed, this annointed person just went on about why they were annointed and who in the church agreed with them - when I saw how serious they were , I got out of the chair. But, I had very little to no respect for them as a christian at that point.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Thats good news. He finally found out about the EN finances being mishandled even though a lot of EN people , even those in here denies it.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Just an update on the US Attorney. A letter came, it says that it will forward all the evidences to the FBI. And if the FBI found there is a federal crime, the US Attorney will prosecute.

[aletheia (aletheia)]

Ginger - thanks for updating us...

You might like this article "Money and Ministry," also about the vision for missionaries to be sent out from the Philippines:
http://www.stevemurrell.com/content/view/80/1/

[ginger1]

I forgot to mention this .

back in 1998, I attended one of the banquet for donors. I believe that was VCM. Brett Holman was up with a projector showing that 75% of the money collected went to administrative cost.
So you guys can imagine just how much money actually went to World Partner's actual missions. My guess 15% - 25% ??? This is Phil Bonasso's practice for years. BYTW. Administrative cost meaning their Salaries. Their pockets.

Also the other old news that was pass on to me was that, during the Y2K. Phil bought Several $700 Y2K kit for each of the staff families. Those money came from VCM funds.

[40days40years]

Man what a pair. Ginger are you sure you got this right? How could any man stand up and say 75% of this money goes for administrative cost? Most would say 7.5% and be kind of ashamed about that amount being a little high. REALLY? maybe you have it wrong???? They can't be that bad.

[robert_unknown]

interesting topic...
ibproofen, you postet some nice thoughts about Ron Lewis...

I will add a funny personal experience to this. He had visited my church in - i think 2001. he was here to investigate the difficult relationships and tensions between some of us pastors.

at this time i remember RL being a very nice and uncomplicated man. he took some motivational-books with him, which i am still reading.

however. a big problem at this time was our financial situation with the church and of course personally, because we had no partners, and all our salary was paid by my small church. money was always to short which brought much tension on me personally, as i had the legal responsability for it.

i asked him how to establish a partnership programm for my church among my friends. he told me that we are not allowed to raise support from members within another (EN?)church...

well - 2 weeks later i wrote an email to RL and asked him to give me at least some hints and advice to raise a partnership programme for our church. the answer was short: "God is Your source!"... as if i was asking him for something more than an advice!

Well, mister - i knew that before. this was not the question that i had.

the funny thing (and this i have taken very personal) - only one or two weeks after this "wise" answers there came a videotape and a letter from Ron Lewis where HE was fund-raising for his new church building!

i am not commenting this http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[lc_20]

Robert,
Your post makes me ill. I wrote up a long response with many thoughts on RL and his fund raising techniques and then deleted it. To summarize: Don't believe a word he says about his financial needs. He has proven to me that he is capable of looking you in the eye and lying to you to get money. In my opionion, he is a sociopath with no ability to distinguish his lies from truth.

I am interested in the church you spoke of though. Did you know Elliot Warren? Was he in this with you? If you don't feel comfortable answering, I understand.

[robert_unknown]

no. eliot warren had nothing to do with us.
why did you delete your postings? is it possible that you please mail me this?

and yes - its sad - how many weasels there are in EN!