A question [Archive] - Factnet Forum

ulyankee

04-30-2006, 12:45 PM

for christ, it seems there are two avenues. Perhaps someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

Those who are already pastors of churches absorbed into Every Nation remain so. However, due to the process of absorption, in which the local church comes under the direct general oversight of EN, EN's "spiritual DNA" begins to be inserted into the church... through local elders who are accountable to EN leaders, through direct accountability/oversight of the senior pastor, ENLI, visiting teachers/speakers, etc. Also, up and coming pastors may be sent to one of the advanced schools, thus bringing back more spiritual DNA. Infiltration. Rice Broocks defines the process fairly well in his book.

Then there is the EN training route - go through ENLI and the advanced schools and get "ordained" that way.

Either way, it ensures that the spiritual DNA of the movement is imparted and then inserted back into the local church and into the local culture.

After advanced EN training some do continue on at Fuller Theological Seminary to get more advanced theological degrees, but now that there doesn't seem to be an active agreement between Fuller and EN I don't know if that will continue to be the case or not.

jayhernandez

05-01-2006, 05:08 AM

Can you say more about Fuller and EN? What the active agreement was and whats happened. I've heard good about Fuller or rather let me say I haven't heard anything bad.

bill_mack

05-01-2006, 06:36 AM

The are several tenured theological professors at Fuller who promote the very heresies that permeate Maranatha/Morning Star/Every Nation. Chief among these doomed professors is "Super Apostle" Clarence Peter Wagner who re-cast the 1948 occult movement (Christian Kabbalah) calling itself the New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR) into its current names, the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and the International Coalition of [false] Apostles (ICA). The NAR/ICA can be seen as an entity whose express purpose and vision is to take over entire Christian denominations through such techniques as:

1) Forcing the signing of Unilateral Covenantal Agreements

2) Sending out "plants" i.e. false leaders into Christian churches to become positioned within these churches as elders, deacons, and pastors and eventually lead the church into apostasy through doctrines based upon a little understood philosophical belief system known as Christian Kabbalah.

3) Threats and coercion toward those who won't comply with "coming under submission and apostolic authority" through false prophesies, false declarations, shunning, takeovers of business entities, music mysticism, etc. to name a few.

4) Illegal structuring of the finances of secular businesses toward financing the destruction of local and national Church organizations using the above techniques. This is done using the metaphors of "Marketplace Apostles" as titles given to Christian Businessmen to make them believe they are building a theosophical "New Kingdom Age" that is supposed to universally transform the world so that Jesus Christ can return. In other words, No transformation by man -- no return of Jesus Christ! Man dictates to God when and if His Son returns and God has somehow limited Himself to the confines and dictates of man. This theosophy is what formed the Masonic Lodges in Europe in the 17th century. Other names this goes by are Moral Government Theology (MGT), Pelegianism, Hegelian Dialectic, Federalism (the Maranatha Federation), etc.

Can anything good come out of Fuller Theological?

ulyankee

05-01-2006, 11:05 AM

jayhernandez, I've tried contacting Fuller directly to find out what happened and they have not responded. I've heard two stories... that it was Fuller's decision to drop EN, and that it was EN's decision to drop Fuller. Needless to say, I don't know which is true.

maranatha1984

05-01-2006, 02:09 PM

84 wrties in response to Bill MAcks posts

Now to be fair Bill it would be hard to call someone who is a post Mill'nst believer a cult. THE PCA (Preby Church of America, including Sproul (their lead theologian) believe in theosophy and the gradual "conversion" of the earth prior to Christ's return. As a matter of Fact the Tribulation and pre Mill.. return of Christ was believed by a very very small minority of US Christians prior to the American Cival War.

The American Cival war and the "Apocalypse" that the South went through started driving the interpretation of Revelation (pre trib- post trib) rapture that has been prevalent in American Evangelical circles for the last 150 years. It turned the Southern Baptists from DEVOUT CALVINIST to Armenians. The classic Prebyterian and Congregational and Southern Baptist interpretaion would be pre-mille.

With regards to Pelegianism as I just indicated Sproul a beleiver in pre mill is about as opposed to Pelegianism as can be.

The reason I mention all of this is taht I believe that by focusing on the "theological" differences that sincere and devout Christians can and do have we can palce a smoke screen around and over the real problem with EN:

The fact that the movement is based on "control of power and money by those at the top" and not the thirst and hunger for Christ.

Now I grant you the "manifest destiny" and ruling and reiging junk I don't like theologically- but the real issue is the way that EN/MCM used and perverted these doctrines for their own devious ends...

maranatha1984

05-01-2006, 02:20 PM

ulyankee

05-01-2006, 03:21 PM

maranatha1984, you said, The reason I mention all of this is that I believe that by focusing on the "theological" differences that sincere and devout Christians can and do have we can palce a smoke screen around and over the real problem with EN:

This is a smoke screen EN itself uses. One doesn't really learn what the movement really stands for and promotes until after one is joined with "spiritual family." Sometimes years after, if ever. But when one asks about it, they are told that these issues deal with non-essentials, which are no reason to leave "spiritual family."

It goes a lot deeper than whether EN is postmil or not. EN is postmil, and eschatology is not a Christian essential (something that people are reminded of when asked, in order to defuse the issue), but it is possible for extreme eschatological positions to expose more serious underlying problems in one's more essential beliefs.

As in Jim Laffoon's talk. He is essentially saying that "we" are the diadem, crown, rod of iron prophesied in Isaiah. Leaders, particularly those on or near the top of the pyramid, assume attributes and "prerogatives of deity." I discussed this in one of my recent blog entries (http://nomoreshepherding.blogspot.com/2006/04/prerogative-of-deity.html). Leo Lawson promoted postmil eschatology when he was dean of the School for Campus Ministry... he also taught that we could be "men of God" just like Jesus was a "man of God"--Jesus in his view was not fully, eternally God but became perfectly filled with and empowered by the Holy Spirit at His baptism, just like we can aspire to be. That's an old heresy btw going back to at least the second century.

There's a fine line there between ruling and reigning WITH Christ and ruling and reigning AS Christ. Orthodox postmillennialists don't believe they ARE Christ.

Men are NOT Jesus Christ. Jesus resisted the temptation of Satan, when he offered Him all the kingdoms of the world if He would just worship him. Jesus, fully man, was tempted; Jesus, fully God, of course responded, "Away from me, Satan!" But what about mere men? Did Broocks and Bonasso, when offered the same temptation, say, "Yeah, sure, why not?"

A body that has forgotten Christ is the Head...

maranatha1984

05-01-2006, 04:40 PM

ULL writes "There's a fine line there between ruling and reigning WITH Christ and ruling and reigning AS Christ. Orthodox postmillennialists don't believe they ARE Christ.

"Men are NOT Jesus Christ. Jesus resisted the temptation of Satan, ....Did Broocks and Bonasso, when offered the same "

84: you get to the heart of the matter ULY. It is not the Theology per se- you and I can have a reasoned debate on post or pre mil return of Christ etc etc ..

What is different about ICC/MCM/EN is that if you read their sermons they don't appear that whacky...or venture very often into the Theological Cult area (although they get mighty close). When "caught" they explain the TC stuff away or change the wording ala Bob Weiner "you must never give allegiance to one person"

The problem, as you so eloquently pointed out, is that these Theological Points are in place- - to defend a lifestyle or a power grab.

I was in MCM when the "ruling and reigning" manifest SOGs took root in very very fertile soil.

Why?

Because it was theologically sound?

Well you can forget the "logic" part of theological when it comes to MCM and EN.

There is rarely any cognitive Aristolean Logic in MCM and EN.

No it was adapted because it fit Bob and Joe's self definition of the Green Berets- and the sacrifices HAD to be for something- OH BOY we can tell people that they will rule and reign! Now we HAVE them!!!!!

Hogwash of course- I mean one simply has to look into the Gospels to see that Jesus EXPLICITLY rejected this kind of nonsensical thinking!

Just see the argument among John, James and Andrew over who would sit at the left and right hand. Just think of what our Lord must think as he sees these numbskulls preaching what He Himself WARNED against.

Okay- the Leo Lawson -Rice Broocks -Phil- Laffon heresey (lets don't kid ourselves this had to be approved by the others) of being perfected ?

Was it taught because the interpretation of these scripture demonstrated that we could be like Jesus- literally?

No- only a numbskull could look at ALL of the scriptures and come to that conclusion. Even the Catholics (hyper Amern to the core) would say although perfection is a worthy mark that is unobtainable.

Lets give these guys a break though.

Leo Lawson understanding "hemunetics" and the Principal of the "Weight and Proponderance of Scripture" [taught in any Bible School in the US] would be like my poodle suddenly understanding derivative calculus equation.

No offense - but when God was handing out brains Leo was last in line.

The reason that the "perfection of Man" was taught was that it fit the structure and power that they had built. If you "can be perfect" and you are "not being perfect" then there is a PROBLEM in your life that must be associated with sin, or something else which gives me (the pastor, elder, prophet) power over you.

So we see the princible (which I will explore in my next chapter) that structure and practice are fitted to "Theology and interpretations" not the other way around.

Thus MCM/EN and the ICC can take a perfectly sound theolgocial principle and "twist it" and use it to promulgate their power. Conversely they can use a whacky and heretetical position to do the same.

Focusing on the theology only will lead one astray with regards to EN/MCM- and I think it is a mistake to do so...without exposing WHY the theology (whether conventional or heretical) is used.

Having said that these cats will use heresey, good theology, bad theology any theology that promotes their power.

bill_mack

05-01-2006, 06:48 PM

'84,

"The reason that the "perfection of Man" was taught was that it fit the structure and power that they had built."

That's my whole point historically. They DID NOT build this structure. It had already been build theosophically by the Rosicrucians 300 years ago with detailed plans written that include the very years we are now living in!!!! We now have complete access to these plans, the theosophical structure that BW and the rest of the NOLR leaders are using. These heretics can run, but they simple cannot hide.

They have built their whole Adam Kadmon structure with the untempered morter of the Kabbalah. Yes, there are those leaders in the mix who never knew what they were doing because of the carefully hidden identity of the 17th century sources, but they are still guilty as God has been faithful to repeatedly send warnings over the years.

We are at the point in time where God is saying, "The Day of the Lord is at hand. Judgment is now" and this very evil structure will reel and rock caused by oscillations of Truth that have met the target full force. Their iron and clay feet will never hold together no matter how many written covenants they coerced other leaders to sign. "ADAM KADMON CHRIST" IS DOOMED!

Is there money and power as a motivation? Of course there is. They thought they were digging up a great treasure when the earlier pioneer leaders of the NOLR hoisted Jacob Boehme's strongbox of alchemystical teaching to the surface in 1948. The truth now shows (again) that they unearthed Pandora's Box -- and the Gifts of the Spirit they thought they acquired really were the same ones that Sorcerer Harry Potter acquired at the Hogwart School of Sorcery. Bill Hamon's "School for the Prophets" is really another Christianized version of Harry Potter. I am an eyewitness to what they do there over the course of 4-days in January 2000 while visiting Minneapolis Maranathan Nick Skrivanek. During this visit, I also went to Brownsville A/G in Pensacola to see how Hamon's NOLR Christian Intl' was interfacing with Browsville A/G. Of course, I know now in retrospect that the Assemblies of God has had many cozy trists with the Latter Rain since 1948!!!

The KABBALAH DRACULA or FRANKENCHRIST that come out of the unearthed coffin that the NOLR brought out needs to be cornered and have the SOLID-SILVER SPIKE OF TRUTH driven into its heart while video camcorders document everything. That is what is happening right now. The magical LOST WORD that brought animation to this *GOLEM* needs to be written on a piece of paper with an *X* drawn over it and forced into it's mouth so it will again return to dust.

God will get the Glory in the Nashville case and the Freemasons who are watching this will be put to shame.

--Bill

maranatha1984

05-01-2006, 07:27 PM

Hi Bill

I understand your view and I think we have a very insignificant disagreement that in the scheme of things- from my perspective really does not matter.

When I speak of structure I mean "how" EN is structured sociolgically and financially (just to clarify- you may have already understood this)

For example: I disagree with Speak and Phil about whether EN can be reformed- they are convinced that it can be- and if they are successful I will wait in line to shake their hands. The WW Church of God was both a theological and sociological cult that seems now to be reformed and a "real" church, whatever my theological disagreements with them might be. So maybe the same can happen for EN.

For we [you and I] do agree on one thing- that these guys are a Sociological Cult and we must each work with our own method of helping people and warning them about EN.

That regardless of the "how" they are interested in power and control

Those opposed or trying to assisted with the reform of EN owe you a gratitude of debt for you work in this area and your understanding of theology.

We must each work toward the same end in the manner that we believe is correct.

I wish you success of course

Blessing

Tik (tok) 84

coppertree

05-01-2006, 08:29 PM

Hi all- Catching up. I have something to share here. I have the back story, on this so to speak. Leo is now appearing to be the scapegoat, but that is not accurarate. He spoke what he heard from the leaders from one one with his invlovement in this group. They made him , repent and get re-baptized in Maranatha. He was a tireless worker , helped form many churches and dispciles in this group. Because of his work later in due time, they asked him to start his theology work as he was educated as a teacher at Uk. He was given books and began his homework as well as pastoring a large campus fellowship at the same time. This came about in response to 1982 investigation on the group. His every step was watched and confirmed by Gainesville and others. He was never alone in this but said and wrote what others told to do. Everything was reviewed.
When Ann Arbor went out their rallying cry as "NO MORE ROME ".
}

speakword2004

05-02-2006, 05:19 AM

Maranatha84

I don't remember ever writing you here or elsewhere that I was convinced that EN could be reformed.

40days40years

05-02-2006, 05:44 AM

Hey, your message board is called every nation reform station or something like that. Maybe I am being picky but come on ;).

speakword2004

05-02-2006, 06:12 AM

Yes, you are being picky.

40days40years

05-02-2006, 06:38 AM

This is just like being in Maranatha LOL.

speakword2004

05-02-2006, 06:45 AM

Who said that? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif

40days40years

05-02-2006, 06:54 AM

If Philip were here he would say, see how horrible it is that you can't delete your message after 30 minutes? This would not happen at http://www.everynation.proboards102.com you should go there now and continue the discussion in more depth over there.

Everything is cool, talk to ya later.

(Message edited by 40days40years on May 02, 2006)

speakword2004

05-02-2006, 07:52 AM

The Reformation Station promotes reform as well as honest and open dialogue. In no ways does it claim that human agency without the support of the Holy Spirit to be a possible means to reform. In fact, we believe that both the conviction of error and sin as well as the open repentance by the leadership and membership of the church would be required for any authentic transformation to begin to take place. As a result, we would be naive to believe that Reformation is the only means by which the will of God will be accomplished in all of this.

The administrators of The Reformation Station agree that there is “cult-like” behaviour in the movement’s leadership that requires urgent attention. This has historical and spiritual roots. As to the dysfunctions, abuses, cultishness, errors in doctrine etc. of the movement there needs to be further debate and discussion with a view to assisting people and setting them free and not just condemning them. The Reformation Station takes a redemptive viewpoint of individuals and the church.

The Reformation Station accepts that there are different viewpoints about the future of the organisation and does not seek to exclude any of these. Reformation may seem idealistic to those of us who have studied the movement in depth and are familiar with its complexities, but we need to remember that with God all things are possible.

Historical attempts at reform within EN's predecessor Maranatha, failed as a result of mixed motivations and poor judgement of the reality of the situation. Our "reformation" goal is not based on these previous attempts that may have sought compromise and political control rather than Godly reform.

The Reformation Station was started at the request of an EN pastor who indicated that he would more open to a place less threatening and more open to dialogue. Others within the movement have also indicated their openness to understand the criticisms and complaints against the movement now that they have found a place that seems less threatening and more open.

Many sincere current EN members have avoided dialogue with us as a result of the Every Nation/Morningstar Factnet section being on a Cult Discussion Board. The majority of EN members do not view EN as a cult and as a result have avoided or ignored the conversation on Factnet even when they may have had valuable contributions to add. Others have not posted or dialogued out of fear and we would like to afford those people an alternative place as well. We would also like to adress those fears without diluting the truth.

Our goal is to disseminate the truth. We do not seek to compromise the Gospel or the advancement of truth. The Reformation Station will continue sharing, discussing and debating without personalised or demeaning attacks on any individuals. We do not represent any internal faction of EN leadership. We have no personal ambitions as to leadership within EN.

speakword2004

05-02-2006, 07:58 AM

SPEAKWORD: As one of the administrators of the new discussion board I continue to support the discussion threads on Factnet, as I do believe that they have an important role to play. My conviction is that God will have His way with respect to Every Nation in all of this.

I believe that He loves the people within the church and whatsoever is ungodly or wrong will be sorted out by Him.

He may choose people both internally and externally as well as other agencies to accomplish this. It is up to Him.

I recognise that the people external to EN, including myself, who have found a voice (and including those who would assist people out of the organisation, those who believe that there are deeper and darker conspiracies as well as those who just want to tell the truth and give their insight, all have a part to play in this as well.)

There are people in Every Nation churches in South Africa whom I I still love and respect. I was once in a level of deception as to the Godliness of my church and have to respect that people are at different places in their lives.

speakword2004

05-02-2006, 08:10 AM

Furthermore, over the course of the last two years FACTNET has been invaluable in my discovery that I was not the only person who had deepseated concerns and worries about the movement. My interactions with various people here have confirmed that I was not just a rebel backslider with a chip on his shoulder.

The revelations provided by people such as Ulyankee and Philip Rosenthal and others have also been a confirmation to me that it was indeed God himself who was helping me by His refusal to rubberstamp my passport within that church any further and not just my own prejudices.

speakword2004

05-02-2006, 08:16 AM

Considering the current state of health of the church and the lack of repentence around certain deceptions, injustices and practises, I would encourage any person, including the most senior of leaders, to leave the Every Nation church as soon as possible should they be convicted in any way. I do not discount the possibility that there may be people who feel, despite all that they have learnt or know, that God requires them to stay in this church for now.

speakword2004

05-02-2006, 08:31 AM

Whatever the case, God need not afford me the place to speak out when I left. I now believe He had to allow me time and also afford me the oppurtunity to learn the "reasons" behind my concerns and fears regarding the organisation. After being in that church from 1992 to end 2003 I had given much of my time and service. It was not easy to leave. Much of my heart and soul had been pumped into it. Whilst I had been able, in my thinking, to separate my destiny from them, it still was an extremely painful and difficult process. During the time leading up to my resignation from the church I had come not only to realise my complicity in the dysfunctional attitudes of the church, but also the need for me to separate myself from it all. It felt like I had dicovered I was a Jew and was deserting from the Hitler Youth. It also felt like I was an evil backlsider and a rebel from God's most progressive and anointed ministry on earth at the same time.

40days40years

05-02-2006, 08:45 AM

This above section is the edited part. You spent a lot of time in this ministry, far longer than I did and I respect the sacrifice. The questions below may seem harsh but are not meant to be. God Bless.

Concerning the Every Nation Reformation Station. It seems it is only open to those who desire reformation. I personally am not saying I want the destruction of Every Nation and reformation would be desirable.....but those who might like the Lord to pull the plug on the organization and are convinced it needs to be dismantled are kind of told not to post there. You are running a message board and some of the most productive posters may want Every Nation to go bye, bye. Is the board open to posters with those view points or not?

(Message edited by 40days40years on May 02, 2006)

ulyankee

05-02-2006, 11:03 AM

40/40, my viewpoint has been welcomed there as well, though right now as I'm currently writing a paper on EN for a class, I don't have much time lately to spend on either forum. I'm turning in my paper tomorrow. Soon after that I plan on publishing it in some form. It won't be as riveting as Tik's story but hopefully will add to the discussion--it certainly summarized all I've learned in the last two years since I left Every Nation. Believe it or not, there's hardly anything in there about the corporate history. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

I do not actively work toward reformation per se and I would say I've been one of those who has had doubts EN could truly be reformed, mainly because I don't see the fruit of repentance among the US-based leadership which up until now has been both the wind behind the sails and the rudder steering this thing. However, I conversely do not actively work toward totally dismantling Every Nation either, my objection to the required bylaw notwithstanding. I personally have been trying to seek God's will, to stand up for the truth in Christ, and to be obedient to what He called me to do... to bring a word to a body that has forgotten Christ is the head - see Ephesians 4 (the whole thing, not just the verses EN quotes) and Colossians 2 for context. We all are to be connected directly to Christ which is the Head. Many of the key leaders of Every Nation and its forbear Maranatha have historically inserted themselves between believers and Christ as the head by proxy.

And what happens as a result of what I say or do in obedience to Him is totally up to Him. I have to say in retrospect I am awed at what has happened even in the last several months as a result of people being obedient to Him and discerning the voice of the Holy Spirit over the din of men who claim to speak on His behalf.

blessings,
ulyankee

speakword2004

05-02-2006, 11:24 AM

40/40 Please take another look at what I posted above. I think you misunderstood me. The viewpoint that EN will not benefit by reform or that people would be best served by leaving EN is not excluded in any way from our discussion. Evidence and arguements around this idea are welcome.

maranatha1984

05-02-2006, 01:08 PM

"He was given books and began his homework as well as pastoring a large campus fellowship at the same time. This came about in response to 1982 investigation on the group. His every step was watched and confirmed by Gainesville and others. He was never alone in this but said and wrote what others told to do. Everything was reviewed.
When Ann Arbor went out their rallying cry as "NO MORE ROME "

Copper: Exactly- and so when Leo became a liability they "threw him under the bus". That is why focusing on theology is pointless. These guys 'sacrificed" Bob because he was threatening them and their gigs!

maranatha1984

05-02-2006, 01:09 PM

Speak"I don't remember ever writing you here or elsewhere that I was convinced that EN could be reformed."

84: A misunderstanding on my part. My apologies

Tik (tok) 84

maranatha1984

05-02-2006, 01:14 PM

Speak"Historical attempts at reform within EN's predecessor Maranatha, failed as a result of mixed motivations and poor judgement of the reality of the situation. Our "reformation" goal is not based on these previous attempts that may have sought compromise and political control rather than Godly reform"

84: Well put and the thesis of my Blog...

maranatha1984

05-02-2006, 01:18 PM

40/40:".....but those who might like the Lord to pull the plug on the organization and are convinced it needs to be dismantled are kind of told not to post there"

84: that would be me you are speaking of and Speak has been kind enough to make me a moderator and to give my small Blog a prominent place. Perhaps Speak will amend the rules and regs- I believe that he is trying to make it a EN friendly place- I want EN to be dismantled - BUT on FACTNET we have folks that go off the deepend with things that are actually debateable rather than sticking with things that are NOT.

I think SPEAK is trying to have the Reform Station a little less partisan that is all.

Speak???????

coppertree

05-02-2006, 08:35 PM

Hi All-Catching one math project finished and finished well.
To 1984- I fear that you miss my point. What Leo said is that which the leadership then and now believes. They live it , in their eyes, naming planets was serious business and a great dream. People can get untied from the group by this method too , of understanding.}

maranatha1984

05-02-2006, 09:53 PM

Copper"What Leo said is that which the leadership then and now believes. They live it , in their eyes, naming planets was serious business and a great dream. People can get untied from the group by this method too , of understanding.}"

84: I thought that Rcie and Steve disavowed this stuff and cleaned house. I knew that Phil believed it- in fact I hope to show that he introduced it...am I mistaken that L Lawsons teachings have been disavowed, BTW I cannot believe that L Lawson was able to develop any serious eschatology based on what I knew about him (by that I mean on his own)

40days40years

05-03-2006, 12:37 AM

Well thanks everybody for the reformation station clarification.

I would like to comment on speakwords statement Historical attempts at reform within EN's predecessor Maranatha, failed as a result of mixed motivations and poor judgement of the reality of the situation. Our "reformation" goal is not based on these previous attempts that may have sought compromise and political control rather than Godly reform. I agree with this but maybe it is also the simple truth that a lot of people in EN like in Maranatha of the past like the present system and don't see anything wrong with it, they think it is good and creates committed believers. I am sure that everybody has encountered the cheer leaders (usually extroverts) who always stand up and endorse virtually every decision that is announced from the pulpit. Those are the guys that seem to be grabbed and put onto a fast track for leadership. Leadership sees one of those guys and next thing you know their getting great words and their on their way up. Maybe there is an exception here and there but people that ask hard questions are they ever put on the fast track to leadership?

As far as the planet stuff goes who knows what God will do with the planets in his universe in the future? Still it sounds like people had very specific intricate ideas about this stuff. Does Rice believe this, what about Lafoon?, where did this stuff come from? Do they believe they will name and rule planets or do they actually believe they will create planets? I am curious because some Mormons believe that men can evolve into Godhood and rule their own planet. Scientologist believe in Xenu who ruled planets. I know Jesus talks about the faithfull governing cities in the future but how bizarre does this planet stuff in EN get? What are its roots? I wonder if some in leadership thinks it is goofy and some hide it? Is this stuff the domain only for the overcomers in leadership, was it ever put into writing?

40days40years

05-03-2006, 01:15 AM

As far as reform I know EN is committed to the five fold ministry but how about having the entire adult EN congregation vote on church wide initiatives or propositions? Why does it only have to be the voice of the apostle, the prophet and a roundtable of leaders? Can EN leaders trust the Holy Spirit to influence members to vote the right way.

In California virtually the only way to get change is not through the elected political officials but through elections on specific propositions. Instead of just having leaders get together to make decisions why not let the entire adult population in the church vote on several differant reform proposition plans? Why not let members who are mature and not necessarily leaders have the right to propose propositions that could be put to the vote of the congretation. You could have local and national votes on these propositions. Ofcourse one problem with propositions in California is occasionally a judge will rule a propostion un-constitutional and over ride the will of the people. I suppose that could happen in EN but it would take a lot of guts to do that and a group of EN judges would have to give a very good biblical reason to do such a thing.

Why not an EN constitution and bill of rights where acceptable and unacceptable behaviour of leaders in regards to discipleship and holding people accountable is spelled out? Sure leaders can intervene in the case of gross sin like a normal church but would be restricted by new EN anti abuse bylaws and be severely limited.

I did come across a novel approach of combatting abuse from a home church. It works like this, IF? you want a mentor you sign up voluntarilly to be discipled for a period of 6 months I believe and after the time period is up the discipleship ends, coercion to continue discipleship relationships is not allowed there are checks and balances. You can back out at any time from the discipleship relationship. That might help put some restraints on those committed to the sheperding game. It's not for me but I am throwing it out there.

40days40years

05-03-2006, 01:39 AM

On second thought after thinking about it I think anything remotely tied to covering, sheperding, discipleship/mentoring programs even with checks and balances would be a bad idea for a group with this history and baggage. Before you know it, it would morph into being non voluntary and a requirement for leadership.

ulyankee

05-03-2006, 10:34 AM

84, perhaps LL couldn't develop serious eschatology on his own, but those who continued to mentor him at Fuller could... What he taught was a dead ringer for what people like C. Peter Wagner and Charles Kraft teach. I'm sure there are others too, but those are the most well-known ones coming out of Fuller. And if LL was the only one in leadership on board with at least some of what Wagner espouses, then why was Wagner the keynote speaker at the 2004 World Conference, introduced by Rice Broocks no less?

Interestingly, the influence seems to have gone both ways (http://www.ccnews.org/index.php?mod=Story&action=show&id=1606&countryid= 207&stateid=0) as far as Wagner is concerned - see here. Scary.

The other deal is though... how many people did LL and the School of Campus Ministry train over the years? Where are they, believing and practicing this stuff? Repeating LLisms like, "There is no true discipleship without inner healing and deliverance?" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A2QTS3HLO1MT6K?_encoding=UTF8)

Are they in your church, or yours or yours? Or this campus here, or that campus over there?

I know not everyone who went through the training totally bought into it. But I know there are others who did.

And I find it hard to believe that only after what LL taught was publicly exposed that other leaders knew what he was teaching, especially since it had been appealed internally first, multiple times.

84, I agree with you, that MCM and MSI/EN used and uses whatever works to reach its goals. That's why I call what they teach and espouse a "working theology" rather than a systematic one because all the pieces and parts that fit EN's agenda have been slapped together, and as long as EN uses largely fill in the blanks, regurgitative materials which take these elements out of their original context (which includes the Bible), then "cognitive dissonance" is reduced. But if you try to make sense of them in the original context, or try to make them contextual with one other, you won't, or at least not without suspending quite a bit of logic to try to do so. I've heard the phrase, "personal theology" used by leaders as well - on the one hand teaching the logical conclusions and agendas based on their "personal theology" while trying to avoid what that "personal theology" is per se. See the Jim Laffoon transcript for one example of this. Or actually two... because Rice Broocks closed it out saying almost the same thing.

And the more problematic stuff is saved for the more advanced schools where students are in a closed environment for six months mostly interfacing with other students in the same closed environment and EN leaders. At least that's the way it works in the US - I can't say about the schools in the Philippines or SA.

And even more problematic stuff may be saved for those proven loyal, in a smaller or even one-on one-environment, like through ministry at one of the apostolic centers like Bethel.

You won't find most of it written down, unlike in Maranatha. You have to piece it together... or least I have, through tapes/audio, personal testimony, etc. in conjunction with the written stuff. I am not nearly as focused on the core theology as I was maybe a year ago... but I do see an overarching agenda based on several elements of EN's "working theology" that helps to explain both EN's goals and methods.

Phil alone isn't the problem. Leo alone isn't the problem. Finding and cutting off scapegoats won't solve it.

True repentance, not cover up. Now there's a concept.

(Message edited by ulyankee on May 03, 2006)

40days40years

05-03-2006, 12:20 PM

ulyankee I believe the poster, living water man said that Leo also taught that There is no true deliverance without proper discipleship not just "There is no true discipleship without inner healing and deliverance?" That of course means that the name of Jesus and the ministry of Jesus Christ used by any believer is not enough, you have to go through the chain of command and through your appointed sheperd. That kind of makes that "sheperd" a proxy for Jesus Christ.

coppertree

05-03-2006, 02:37 PM

Hi All- a few notes form me before a new math projects starts.
Hi 40 days- I saw and heard that in this group that one needs a shepherd for inner healing. The shepherd was usually part of the leadership. No one was ministered in this way unless it was orgnaized and went through the chain of command. Writing came into play here, as discipleship notes were kept and put in a ringed notebook. These notes were reviewed by pastors who reported to senior pastors. This was then discussed at staff meetings, where we all made input.}

On the planets, we were claiming our planets at a large staff meeting. We were giving names to planets , as known one had all ready been claimed. I hope this helps.
to 84- I think Ul well clarified what I was saying about Leo and theology. We are to contend for strong doctrine, as Paul says. This is our main battle, I see it here and now. This contention for doctrine will help people to see again and hear again. And as always in His Grace, and with the Holy Spirit leading.

speakword2004

05-03-2006, 02:49 PM

Shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic?
This website got you in a panic?
Got to phone the pastor?
Before there is a disaster?
Before he tells you to close this book
Just take a breath and have a Careful look!

(Message edited by speakword2004 on May 03, 2006)

ulyankee

05-03-2006, 03:00 PM

40/40, you are correct, I have that other quote on tape too--Leo said verbatim in my former church, There is no discipleship without inner healing and deliverance, and no inner healing and deliverance without discipleship. It went both ways. Deliverance could only be performed by someone else who is especially trained, and everything was covered by the pastors over the discipler performing the inner healing and deliverance. So other than run of the mill deliverance if there is such a thing was reported to pastors. Also, disciplers/leaders decide when a person gets delivered. Leo specifically taught to be "slow" about casting out demons--so even if someone was discerned to have a demon, it wouldn't get cast out right away. It would be on the leadership's schedule. Also, All Christians have demons. So all need leadership for this process, to be delivered. That's one of the reasons I say that leadership acts as Christ by proxy, though not the only reason by a long shot.

Coppertree, yes, that was exactly the point I was trying to make. Nothing was done or taught without at least tacit approval, if you know what I mean.

(Message edited by ulyankee on May 03, 2006)

ginger1

05-03-2006, 03:14 PM

Coppertree, when did this planet stuff happened ? i know that Phil Bonasso preached it during Maranatha times. I thought this was only Phil doing it, apparently its not !

Steve Murrell definitely has a long,long, long, long way to go to change EN.

coppertree

05-03-2006, 03:42 PM

Hi Ginger, This was early 1980's, done only as far as I knew at large staff meetings, ei. regional and national levels. We were taught that, it was going to be reward for our service; it fits with we shall be like 'little gods ' teachings.}

speakword2004

05-03-2006, 04:03 PM

There was a professor named Sagan,
Who pondered how life did begin.
"From the stars we did come,
And when we are done,
Our death will be another's origin."

by T Campbell

maranatha1984

05-03-2006, 05:31 PM

Uly: am not nearly as focused on the core theology as I was maybe a year ago... but I do see an overarching agenda based on several elements of EN's "working theology" that helps to explain both EN's goals and methods."

84: I agree with all that you say- and this is the minor disagreement I have with BM. Focusing on the "theology" is a waste of time because these guys really don't care about it IMHO it is about the power and money.

Question: so was LL theology thrown overboard and disavowed or just LL???

The planet stuff comes from extrapolating the MSOG doctrine- a twist on Haganism and Copelandism- God as our servant who must do our bidding if we can just come up with the right incantation and faith. Uh- why call it faith and word- why not just call it, hmmmm lets see- what would we call something that required "belief and the incantation of certain phrases"? WOULD WE CALL IT MAGIC???!!!!!!

maranatha1984

05-03-2006, 05:37 PM

Ginger and CT

Phil B introduced Copelandism and Haganism into MCM and started that whole trends. Rice, Dennis Darville, Greg were plain ole fire throwing evangelist at this point with some of the MSOG doctrine from MCM that was first introduced in the late 70s.

Phil gave them the "juice" of Copelandism and Haganism that takes this to its natural ends- if we are SONS OF God, and We are going to rule and reign, if we are "versions of Jesus" literally Christ's Body then why would'nt we have our own planet? Surely our loving Father would not deny that to us.

I have heard people hope that Phil gets to rule Mercury or Pluto.

Personally I think that the planet Pluto would be to good for him. I suggest the planet Goofy!

coppertree

05-03-2006, 06:05 PM

Hi all- I recall from 1977, Copelandish stuff there all ready, fed to us by Bob W. Phil parroted back to all that he could; as he was in a power struggle for Bob W's favor. At this time he was one of many jr.s.;not unlike a normal corporation anywhere in this world. Planets were only for the best serving, the elite of the elite, as a gift for performance.

The statement would be about Leo Lawson, if that is what you are saying, with a little research , that he (Leo) said what everyone said in the inner group did. He was the messenger, so to speak. Much of this was hidden; part of the backstory, so to speak; the inner of the inner knew this. Of course, they want you to believe that it was only Leo.

About the theology- we do this for others, not us but for whom are still caught. We contend as Paul did for strong doctrine that others may see and hear.}

40days40years

05-03-2006, 09:20 PM

copper, Ginger and others. This thing is a mixture of being goofy and hubris. The idea that this group could pick and choose a known planet to name and rule, uhh how do they know it is not taken?, maybe that planet is for John Wesley or one of the original disciples? think about it. Maybe God had other plans for certain planets and what about a new heaven and earth that is suppose to replace the old one before we sail off into eternity?. I mean there were hundreds of millions of other christians on earth at this time what about them and those that came before? I remember Bob claiming 1 billion souls for the kingdom and I remember back then that I thought it was an ego driven statement but original. It turns out that the 1 Billion claim was not original I believe Paul Cain if not him it was another NOLR big wig making the same claim that God would use him to win 1 billion for Jesus. These guys even appropriated each otheres boasts, did they steal this one from McDonalds?

1984 - With Copeland it is not so much you have faith and say the right incantation allah magic. They believe that God made promises and God cannot lie and he has to honor his promises so if you are right with God and have faith. Boom you get it, you can kind of put Got into a box. One thing they don't harp on to much though is that Jesus may have told Peter and the other disciples they would have a thrown and position of rulership in the future, Jesus also said to Peter that he would lead him to where he did not want to go.

40days40years

05-03-2006, 09:31 PM

Yeah and in case there are any EN lurkers thinking man this is wacked but it was a long time a go and not relevant, there is a poem/song out there that was told at Morning Star International about present leaders (some have recently left) being sung about in the future by the grateful masses. Yeah, some will say it was tongue in cheek (what can they say?) but still how do you come up with something like that even goofing around. That song goes into the same category as the planet stuff in my book.

(Message edited by 40days40years on May 03, 2006)

40days40years

05-04-2006, 04:28 AM

ulyankee to clarify in regards to LL I have no problem with serious deliverance issues going through upper leadership in the church that is to be expected and even commendable. The impression living water man gave to me was that LL did not believe deliverance could be accomplished unless through a designated sheperd. I disagree with Leo, a follower of Jesus Christ has authority against the devil in his name it is about spiritual authority not sheperding relationships.

ulyankee

05-04-2006, 06:11 PM

40/40, thanks for clarifying... My other issue though is that the way it was taught and practiced wasn't about deliverance at all but about bondage - exerting behavioral and spiritual control. Files are/were compiled in some churches, then and now, so as to keep people in line. Reports filed on who attended what small group, what they said and did, etc. What are your tithing and giving patterns? Did you finish the Purple Book, do you serve the church, if so is it faithfully and regularly, are you in ENLI? As long as you stay in line, no problem. Sing songs of freedom all day, thinking you're really free in Christ. But if you go outside the lines, start seeing inconsistencies, start asking questions, then big problem. If you continue resisting getting back in line, you risk then being "delivered" of the religious, Jezebel, or xyz spirit that is causing you to question your leaders. I know in my particular case it was the HOLY SPIRIT. It goes back to that "bounded choice" thing that 84 wrote about.

40days40years

05-04-2006, 07:46 PM

Yeah I forgot that they have the devil cards too. Ultimatly if you look at the system the people running it can shift the blame onto God or the devil instead of getting real with themselves, of course local church leadership is trapped by the system themselves. If the flaws of the system are brought up they can not really address them and blame the criticism on XYZ demon in the member or outsider or they can blame God by saying, hey were not like other places were totally 100% committed to God so in a way God can get the rap for their excessive controlling. Most people end up leaving quietly because it is just to much for a young person to deal with in a sane healthy way.

One reason why I left is because I had been called onto the carpet for murmuring about the system to a friend who turned me into leadership. I knew that if I had problems in the future with the program I would just have to keep my mouth shut and go along and my spirit felt very heavy about it. I also had a friend outside of the group who I told that I can't leave because I want to be used by God and he said look you are miserable there, God can't use you anyway if you stay. I kept thinking about that and realized he was right, there was no way I could "sell" this thing to others. They want you to die to self so their system can live but you know that already.

ontheroad

05-04-2006, 08:24 PM

Question about "deliverance by proxy" and pastoral control over church members ---

I have been reading this thread with great interest. Two topics especially grabbed my attention: (1) the leadership keeping tabs on the underlings to maintain control over them, and (2)the concept of a symbiotic relationship between discipleship and deliverance/inner healing.

In my church, I saw time and time again where the pastor would find out something about a church member (usually through one of his appointed spies)and then "discern" that the member needed deliverance from the alledged sin in order to comply with leadership. Lots of times, he would confront the offender directly and usually a lecture and/or a deliverance session would ensue. But many other times, the pastor would bypass talking to the offender and instead attempt to do "proxy deliverance" on behalf of the offender. By this, I mean he would have someone "stand in" for the offender and would supposedly kick demons out of the stand-in person, which would really mean the demons were being kicked out of the offender. My pastor would use Jesus as the ultimate example of proxy intercession, because He took on our sins and defeated Satan in our place. He said we were to model that.

Is this practice done in any other ex-maranatha, MSI, or EN churches? Has anyone else heard of this errant doctrine? I know some other key prophets and intercessors teach this, C. Peter Wagner, if I'm not mistaken, and others of his ilk.

40days40years

05-04-2006, 09:26 PM

on the road I never heard of the proxy stuff at my church thank goodness. As far as intercession for the lost?, there were books reccommended on intercessory prayer (Reese Howells). Some in the charismatic world believe that through intercessory prayer souls can be won, where you take on the burdens of the lost and actually groan in travail for them. I don't know what to believe about that subject. It kind of sounds like proxy stuff is going on there also.

40days40years

05-05-2006, 07:29 AM

Yes I am very grateful to those in Maranatha/EN who minister deliverance. I salute these people and am grateful to them. The deliverence emphasis is a double edged sword however. It's great that a bunch of people who are really messed up can get deliverance but the problem is that the emphasis of this ministry leads to twisted conclusions in the movement as a whole. When ever anyone comes up with a valid complaint (from God more times than not) against the ministry it is always dismissed as the work of a spirit of rebellion, or ________ fill in the many blanks. There is a place for the deliverance ministry but we have heard about ex-Maranatha churches here going off into the extreme deep end with extremely disturbing stories. We have heard about congregations in certain EN churches being terrified of Satan and this has been reported by former EN leaders. This is not healthy!

I remember Pat Robertson of the 700 club talking about those who specialize in the deliverance ministry and warning that those who emphasize this can be led astray unwittingly into witchcraft.

Like I said I am grateful to those in Maranatha/EN who helped me but the deliverance emphasis can lead to unwitting control. Real issues are never really dealt with because they are always dismissed as coming from someone with this or that demon. God sends someone to correct the ministry and the pastor or his wife always seem to have a word or vision hampering reform. I wish Steve Murrell would deal with this uncomfortable situation and address it. I guess I said my message twice but it needs to be said a thousand times.

40days40years

05-05-2006, 08:50 AM

Well this has got to be one of the most disjointed threads on the net but I like disjointed threads.

1984 you said:Leo Lawson understanding "hemunetics" and the Principal of the "Weight and Proponderance of Scripture" [taught in any Bible School in the US] would be like my poodle suddenly understanding derivative calculus equation. No offense - but when God was handing out brains Leo was last in line.

40/40: I don't know Leo but is he really that dim? he is one of the bright lights of EN theology.

1984: The reason that the "perfection of Man" was taught was that it fit the structure and power that they had built. If you "can be perfect" and you are "not being perfect" then there is a PROBLEM in your life that must be associated with sin, or something else which gives me (the pastor, elder, prophet) power over you.

I completely agree with this asessment Mr.Tok- Another question? If when your born again in Maranatha/EN and your sin nature dies and then is burried in baptism why is it that the leaders from Bob/Phil/Rice/Greg...etc. continue to still sin? And why is it that the children born to them have a sin nature?---Parents with no sin nature should not produce kids who sin is the way I see it. When you think about it, EN theology should demand that Pauls struggle with the flesh and sin in the book of Romans? Well it should be censored if not banned, what is wrong with the apostle Paul? I speak in jest of course.

maranatha1984

05-05-2006, 01:39 PM

40/40:"he really that dim"

84: My impression was of a thug guarding a mobster when I would see Leo standing next to Bob. I got the impression Leo would have killed anyone at Bob's request, so to speak. Think of a mafiaoso thug. Street smart but not smart enough to run the operation. What I truly find puzzling is how this guy could be the theological guru of EN and run their Training School. But then again if you look at the unbelievably strange and heretical doctrines coming out of there perhaps not strange. The abuse that I have read about Leo perpertraing is No surprise. ULY thinks Leo (correct me ULY if I have this wrong) was simply a mouthpeice for others, and when the stuff got exposed as crack pot and heretical no more Leo.

40/40:"Well it should be censored if not banned, what is wrong with the apostle Paul?"

See my New Thread; http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

40days40years

05-06-2006, 08:29 AM

Message deleted at the request of the Member.

(Message edited by 40days40years on May 06, 2006)

(Message edited by admin on May 16, 2006)

ginger1

05-06-2006, 02:16 PM

40/40, I was branded last january in Palm Spring as the "Bitter Woman". LOL !!
I guess the "bitter woman" is a brand thats stronger than a "witch or a Jezebel " LOL !!!

I do agree with Coppertree, currently Leo Lawson and Phil Bonasso are the scapegoat of EN. After speaking to a few of the current EN, they all blamed both of them .

40days40years

05-06-2006, 02:53 PM

ginger, oh man I forgot to add bitter and disgruntled to what we are labeled. There are so many things were called it is hard to remember all of them.

coppertree

05-06-2006, 03:23 PM

Hi 40 -Thank you listening to my thoughts, however I am not a witch as you say. But as I don't rebel much, and my demons were cast out by Mararnatha, a good day ago. I guess in horse terms as this is Derby day you would make me a gelding. I must ask why the gender basis?

About Leo, -to 1984, Leo did run a lot of the show as a Dick Cheney to George W, if you like. Those strange doctrines as you say, they are bread and butter of the inner circle. There is even more stuff...that not many would believe.}

40days40years

05-06-2006, 04:30 PM

Message deleted at the request of Member.

(Message edited by 40days40years on May 06, 2006)

(Message edited by admin on May 16, 2006)

jayhernandez

05-06-2006, 04:37 PM

Somebody make it clear to upcase and 40 that I am cleary out of EN. I am cleary opposed to what they teach and stand for.

The reason I care and think it's important to make sure I try to clarify, is because I feel I played a big part in bringing down the church in California. THis wasn't easy for me to do because my brother was there in an EN church went things went down and I was being told I needed to leave. I was in a Florida EN church. I pulled out when I saw the errors. I spoke to him and opened the door for him to admit what he saw. At about that time he was confused because of the newest news of what Tony F had done and his sense of loyalty and commitment to the church.

I feel that if I hadn't been directly involved with EN for the 6 months I was then I would have been disregarded..."big brother just doesn't understand".

When he pulled out a bunch of others did as well.

My brother was involved a lot longer then I was and is now keeping in touch with a bunch of the boys from that church. He always tells me when he speaks to any of those guys back in California. He tells me how broken they are. He tells me how some are back in new churches. How others are doing better and that some have begun to date.

My brother and I are back home in Illinois now. We're both doing better then ever.

I started a new thread called "new members", hoping it would provide a place for new people to go and tell their story. It was bombarded/sabotoged (or so it seems) with premature talk. "Taking back the planet" and "sugar coating" are words they used and didn't quite make since to me. It's inconsistant to why I even come here to post.

I don't know how any misunderstanding has taken place but it clearly seems to be there. I'd be happy to clarify.

I'm concerned that if I am being misunderstood (in any way) then it's been happening in the past. This is not good. What ever I've posted is most definetly not in favor of what EN teaches and stands for.

Some of the guys in California know me. They come here. So does my brother. They read this stuff as well. Before they left and before the church crumbled they were told that people who post here are just people who were "filtered out". They clearly know my story and are shocked to see I've been misunderstood. It tells them something about people here. I want explaination or show me what I've said that makes me misunderstood. I will clarify.

Please let this be understood! You can make the difference. Get your backs off the wall!

Jay the peacemaker

40days40years

05-06-2006, 04:48 PM

Jay I hate to break it to you but I have never been in EN. What possibly could you have done to cause Tony to have his indiscretions or Phil to be loving money/ conrol freak Phil like he has been for the last 20 years?

jayhernandez

05-06-2006, 05:02 PM

Nothing I could have done could have brought what the did to light. I didn't know of it. I don't know them.

What I was able to do is be the loving brother I needed to be to my brother. I was also the Christian friend that broght Truth and understanding to his questions. He had them just like everyone there who saw thier "great leader" fall.

These guys are young and because thier faith was not founded thier world was shaken (who can have thier faith founded in Christ with what they teach). I didn't take that oppertunity to drag him out. I helped show him out. When he pulled out a huge part of them did as well. He wasn't just another one of the guys- he was looked up too as well. He'd come how to visit and sit in a good church and listen to my father and when he went back he's share what he learned. They were often times amazed. He had started falling into the same rut as the rest of the leadership seems to be in- but he had family that cared for him. He didn't leacve without scraps but he's stronger then ever.

I'm thankful for my family. They've been therre for me as well.

But as for Tony and Phil- all I can say is that we dig our own grave. The mystery has been revealed. Noone has excuse. I tell my bro to pray for them. I never knew them.

Jay the peacemaker

ulyankee

05-06-2006, 05:17 PM

40/40... ding ding ding, you get to keep your last two cents, unless of course you're motivated to mark them with a Sharpie and put them into the World Partners Pot. I find it amusing and somewhat ironic that anyone would be afraid of me or think that I'm a witch b/c in real life I'm not a scary or intimidating person, or at least I don't think I am. The only power I have is that which I have in Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. Of myself I am nothing but "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" (Phil 4:13).

jayhernandez, I hope you're not mistaking some of 40/40's joking here as serious. Or that I'm not mistaking 40/40's seriousness as a joke, hehe. As the Tennessee mountain folk say, bless your heart, if Phil and Tony and the rest didn't do what they did, and in least in Phil's case hadn't been doing it for 20 years or more, you would not have been able to "take down the church" as you thought you did. It sounds to me based on what you posted here and on the other thread that all you and your brother did is spoke the truth and acted according to the truth. That's all that many of us are trying to do - stand up for the truth in our Lord Jesus Christ. If it was His will to keep that church together He would have. As Gamaliel the Pharisee said about the early Christians... "For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God"(Acts 5:38-39, NIV).

blessings,
ulyankee

jayhernandez

05-06-2006, 05:37 PM

No, no, I didn't say I brought it down. I certainly feel I helped though. I did it as you said by bringing the Word. Just a you guys do here. What more could the Body of Christ as for?

The church was on its way down already. This is fact. Ultimatley it was the Word of God that did the work- I'm just glad to see the result. My reason are personal and non personal - beyond that, it's a testament. The result is that church fell. I don't fight against the church but what they teach. We can address this. We are to address this. Just like we're to get involved with political issues and education and world missions etc. We are to be here for those who have questions. Some of the questions asked here have brought others to making the choice to leave an EN church. We couldn't possibly do it fighting God. So it's my hope to bring Truth.

If it hadn't fallen at least my loved one pulled out. In either case I'm greatful to be here.

I don't ask for recognition on my part. Each member makes the whole of the Body. We each do a part. I know you understand this.

I hope I'm not misunderstanding him either. In time the personalities will be known. I'm just not one to put something out there just for a bite. I hope none of us would.

40days40years

05-06-2006, 05:39 PM

Let me clarify, none of the women here are witches. All I am saying is that is how the mind of a Maranatha/EN leader thinks when confronted with a strong woman who is an ex member, opposed to their system and even working against it. Maybe I am wrong but I don't thinks so. IMHO. Jezebel / spirit of witchcraft, blah, blah, blah. I wish I had never posted it.

(Message edited by 40days40years on May 06, 2006)

ginger1

05-06-2006, 06:14 PM

40/40, I am glad you posted it, it is truly funny how EN people label us. They have their own "special language" that they can understand.

You also forgot to add "losers". Thats another term they used for us after we left.
By the Way , did you see Rice Brookes recent video where he is featuring "Winning in Life " ? I was wondering win what ? He should have a game show for EN , "Who is the biggest losers now ?"
well, as Jesus said, those who were first will be last and those who are last will be first.

maranatha1984

05-06-2006, 07:10 PM

40 & UL
and all

Being called a Witch, Bitter, devisive, discgruntled former member, satanic, fallen son, fall away, apostate, demon possessed, demonizer- ...where is a thesarus when I need it...all of these terms I WEAR WITH JOY IF THEY ARE SPOKEN ABOUT ME BY THE leadership of MCM or EN.

I count it an HONOR to be someone who "put his soul in mortal jeopardy" and who caused "others to stumble"...right out of MCM. HOORAY FOR THE GOOD GUYS... thats us!

ulyankee

05-06-2006, 11:43 PM

40/40, don't worry, I took what you said in the spirit in which it was intended. Even though I know it was tongue in cheek, there's an element of truth there. You don't have to regret saying what you did at least as far as I'm concerned or how I might have taken it.

Though I have to admit that in the last two years here I've gotten increasingly bolder in the Lord... when I first came out and started posting, I was terrified that someone would come after me for the things I said. In all seriousness, I know that the Lord is protecting me, but if that day comes when I am directly attacked or persecuted (rather than by proxy) then as 84 says, I will rejoice as it will be in the Lord, for standing for His Truth.

lc_20

05-06-2006, 11:48 PM

40days... no offense taken here. I remember a woman in our church saying once... you cant have a problem with a Jezebel spirit in the church without Ahab's for leaders. I think she was sick of the accusations herself. But, she made a good point.

ginger1

05-07-2006, 01:59 AM

lc20 good point.

coppertree

05-07-2006, 03:04 AM

Hi All catching-
Yes Lc, thank you ; I said this before; IT WAS NOT JEZZEBEL, but her husband , Ahab whom should have know God, or His council at least. She was brought in as a princess of an another god to the the Kingdom in Israel for her land. Ahab lamented on his couch, to her about a vineyard that was not his. Although , he was king and had almost everything, but this one man's yard.
Well , to our times Melivlle had much to say about this in Moby Dick. Ah, yes chasing the whale and losing all. But in Abab mind saving, it was his dignity as he saw it}. we need Robert Burns, as he said in his poem, that we could see ourselves as those did. Something about a bee in bonnet at church, no less.

40days40years

05-07-2006, 09:00 AM

I disagree here because when people talk about Jezebel there is a hushed tone. Ooooooh, evil manipulative witchy woman, manipulative, conniving, killing the prophets, fleshly, immoral, worshipping Baal and demons, she is a female satan figure the epitome of evil. Ahab is just some cry baby dufus in comparison. Ahab is like Bob or Phil having a fit because someone got the Mercedes they wanted at the dealership and they can't get the color they want even though they already have a bunch of nice new cars alreadyhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif.

(Message edited by 40days40years on May 07, 2006)

ulyankee

05-07-2006, 12:00 PM

lc and coppertree, yes, very good point. The way in which EN claims headship is by coercing, seducing, and capturing men, and then they insert their leadership as men's headship, as Christ by proxy. But it's not Jezebel as in women who are doing this, not by a long shot.

The reason for so much emphasis on the Jezebel spirit, etc. is to get women to submit to this, to override the Holy Spirit in them (or just plain common sense) that is warning them that their husbands are being taken away from them. This also discredits women in general, so that men and also women more and more learn to (mis)identify the voice of the leaders as that of the Holy Spirit.

One of the things I pray for people who may be starting to wake up is that they hear the voice of the Holy Spirit louder than that of mere men, and that they heed that voice. God has heard and answered that prayer.

I've had a pastor tell me point blank that he thought that many Christian women were more attuned to the Holy Spirit than men... including his wife, and including me... but that the appropriate response was to "submit" this discernment to them so that we would instead hear from the Holy Spirit through our husbands, rather than directly.

So bind and gag the women, demonize them, and steal the men.

I'm not personally saying that women are always more attuned to the Holy Spirit than men. Maybe more intuitive in general. But whatever "spirit" is behind this thing specifically tries to deceive men, imho. That may well be the real Jezebel here.

(Message edited by ulyankee on May 07, 2006)

ginger1

05-07-2006, 03:02 PM

I remember those Ulyankee. We were told that God speak to the husband first, then to the wives then to the children. Its a very demonic belief and doctrine in EN and still practice today. They tell the women to be Quiet and just submit. Women are not allowed to protest nor have any say in EN. Rice Brookes was confronted by one of the Charismatic Minister about this and he just ignored it. I remember another pastor wife told me, "we will never have a women pastor " because they don't believe in it.
There is no role among women in EN and there would never have one. Even if you are married to a EN pastor.

40days40years

05-08-2006, 01:40 AM

ulyankee said: I've had a pastor tell me point blank that he thought that many Christian women were more attuned to the Holy Spirit than men... including his wife, and including me... but that the appropriate response was to "submit" this discernment to them so that we would instead hear from the Holy Spirit through our husbands, rather than directly.

Lets be honest women make most of the choices around the home and local community even in EN even though there is nothing they can do if upper leadership pulls rank, ofcourse the guys are going to keep this secret. In regards to church and home? across the nation, the majority of those choices are made by women to.

People in the occult say the same thing about womens spiritual sensitivity and gifts.

Adam rebelled and was disobedient Eve was deceived and more prone to that sort of thing, at least that is what I was taught.

ginger1

05-08-2006, 02:58 AM

Here is the problem some of the EN leaders are "scolding" the husbands in EN to get more involved and make choices around the home. This includes finances, kids, decorating the homes etc. They are removing more authority of the wives at home. Which is very unrealistic, since most husband works and are too tired to make any decisions. They trusted the wives to do it. Thats why in EN , they NEVER TEACH that husband and wives are MADE ONE and are EQUAL.
The husbands are told to be the "priest" of the Home and were told to "lead prayers" for their family are also unrealistic. Let's face it, husband are not as religious as the wives and the husbands are way too tired to do any of that.
The EN leaders put this unrealistic burden on the EN husbands , so they come to a church as a "show" that they are the ALPHA MALE of the house.

annelewis

05-08-2006, 10:28 AM

I've heard (and not just in Maranatha) the teaching about Sarah's submissiveness. However, a lot of contemporary Christianity is silent about Abigail (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Samuel+25) as a role model for dealing with leadership, specifically husbands, that are wrong.

ulyankee

05-08-2006, 11:05 AM

ginger, on the one hand my former church and EN in general had a valid point in saying that the American church in general ministers to and is run by women, and that EN's goal is to minister to men who will in turn minister to women. But it goes too far in then discounting women, especially married women, who are supposed to have the ear of their husbands. They wish to replace the wife with their own voices in their ears. You also see men forming closer relationships with other men than with their wives. EN leaders have even bragged about this... saying things like "if my wife did to me what so and so did, it would be grounds for divorce."

My husband and I were one spiritually and otherwise until our experience in EN, when we were spiritually separated, mainly to separate me from my husband's ear, and to silence the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking to both of us. Even though it's much better now, our marriage still hasn't fully recovered from that. Last night in my current church, my pastor even touched on this in his sermon... about how the Holy Spirit speaks to BOTH. He is not going to say one thing to one spouse and a totally different thing to another spouse. But that is going to happen if you have the Holy Spirit speaking to one spouse, and leaders claiming to have the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking to the other. And then leaders don't yield to the Holy Spirit but assert their voices as His. That's exactly what DID happen. It's very frightening to see your spouse change before your eyes to someone who no longer trusts you, who once could hear from the Holy Spirit himself but now can only hear through others, who believes you are a mouthpiece of Satan, who is being told that you are usurping his authority in your home, when you 100% know in your heart that all you are doing is sounding a warning brought to you by the Holy Spirit Himself, not trying to usurp anyone but just sound an alarm. I've been justified I guess in what all has happened in the last two years, but it's a Pyrrhic victory for sure - not one I rejoice in.

ulyankee

05-08-2006, 11:17 AM

The husband of the Proverbs 31 woman trusts her implicitly... knows that she will make wise decisions for him and for their household. Ginger, how can EN leaders presume to rule the world if they have to do all the things that the husband of the Proverbs 31 woman completely trusted her to do? She had great strength, wisdom and discernment... she didn't just do as he told her to do, but had his and their household's best interests at heart at all times, and he treasured that. And he was a well-respected leader, too.

THIS was the kind of wife that Lemuel's mother taught him to marry, in order to more effectively rule... NOT a doormat, and NOT a Stepford wife!!!

ginger1

05-08-2006, 11:31 AM

Ulyankee thats why EN Leaders never taught those things, the leaders expect to marry beautiful women in the church then make them as a doormat. But not all women submit to this kind of ENs leaders ambition though. Some I know do fought back and they do goes to marriage counseling. I was told its pretty HIGH in EN. That is something these EN leaders would not let the congregation know.
Here is another thought, Phil's wife used to say that "if you see your husband is wrong, just pray for them" , I can see where that went.
Members of EN people would love to shut us up and just "pray" for them. For the "reform" and "forgiveness".

maranatha1984

05-08-2006, 12:58 PM

Uly:"The reason for so much emphasis on the Jezebel spirit, etc. is to get women to submit to this, to override the Holy Spirit in them (or just plain common sense) that is warning them that their husbands are being taken away from them"

84: Uly as I mentioned in the past you have shed new light for me on MCM and what was going on.
For example- you point out that many of the "guys" in EN (and I believe that got into MCM) had either a really BAD father figures (or none) or super work committed father figures that did not pay attention to them. I think both Phil and I and Matt (from my story) fell into this area.

You also point out that both EN and (I think MCM) were very guarded and suspicious of married, non full time, women. Why? Because I think women havee that intuition, that "discernment" (I really do not like using MCM buzz words!!!) that sixth sense that tells them "Yeah it may look okay, and it may sound okay but SOMETHING IS WRONG".

Ms Tok has that to a degree that is scary. My friend in my story "Sheila" had it, from the first moment her thinking was "These people are NOT RIGHT- the are BAD!"

From what I gather you had/have it. That makes you DANGEROUS!

Matt and I have exchanged e-mails about this. In my story his wife Allie intimidated my Shepherd. He was scared of her. She was a threat to him because her "sixth sense" smelled a SKUNK!!!!

So what does EN/MCM do with these women who "get it"- they label them- they destroy their effectiveness to communicate so no matter how "right on they are" if they label them as a witch and a Jezabel their message will be seen as from Satan.

maranatha1984

05-08-2006, 01:02 PM

Anne Lewis:I've heard (and not just in Maranatha) the teaching about Sarah's submissiveness. However, a lot of contemporary Christianity is silent about Abigail as a role model for dealing with leadership, specifically husbands, that are wrong"

84: No kidding-m how about Deborah. And What happened at the cross who was there- apparently ALL of the inner circle women and only one disciple- the "Alan Alda' of the group John!!!!

maranatha1984

05-08-2006, 01:10 PM

uly:It's very frightening to see your spouse change before your eyes to someone who no longer trusts you, who once could hear from the Holy Spirit himself but now can only hear through others, who believes you are a mouthpiece of Satan, who is being told that you are usurping his authority in your home, when you 100% know in your heart that all you are doing is sounding a warning brought to you by the Holy Spirit Himself, not trying to usurp anyone but just sound an alarm. I've been justified I guess in what all has happened in the last two years, but it's a Pyrrhic victory for sure - not one I rejoice in."

84: This really makes me sick. At least MCM for the most part was screwing around with singles and not fouling up entire families. Ms Tok and I have this rule: If we don't both feel a "yes" and Feel "good" about a decision we have our answer, the answer is no. BTW one of the lessons I learned from MCM experience is that when a close female friend (now that would be Ms Tok these days) is telling you that "She does not feel right about this" and sometimes she cannot explain why "YOU HAD BETTER LISTEN CLOSELY!!!!"

ginger1

05-08-2006, 01:22 PM

Maranatha1984. Yes they do meddle with some of the families. They did that in Phil Bonasso's church. Not all though. You see, some of the married women would constantly "report" to the pastors what their husband is doing, because they are afraid that they are "sinning". But some women are just simply Strong willed who would not let the leaders meddle in. Its a matter of would you let them or not meddle in. And being opinionated will land you in trouble sometimes. if you contribute a lot of money, of course they won't try to rock the boat.
I know that Dave Soto's church tried to do meddle, but we left real early. I suggested to my husband to try Greg Wark church and when we did, we never went back. A great Blessing in disguise.

(Message edited by ginger1 on May 08, 2006)

ontheroad

05-08-2006, 03:13 PM

In my experience, women's discernment on issues was largely discarded unless it was either (1) submitted to a male leadership for verification of authenticity and "covering" and (2) directly affirmed a leader.

On the contrary, though, when a wife agreed with a leader on an issue and the husband did not, then the wife was told to trust her discernment and disregard her husband's.

HUGE double-standard.

ginger1

05-08-2006, 04:53 PM

They do go to the the husbands and tell them, "we have a problem with your wife... and we needed to speak to you..." While the scripture specifically says, if you have a problem with a brother or sister, you go straight to them first. They do not do that in EN.

Ontheroad, yes they do have a double standard. And I saw that happened to a friend of mine, it literally destroyed their marriage.
The religious women in the church tend to lived in fear that their husbands are not praying enough or not reading their bible enough.Or are not religious enough that they need to report to their pastors.

40days40years

05-09-2006, 03:19 AM

Okay but what about Rose Weiner? It sounds like she was "imparting" her will on all levels of Maranatha and a lot of what she did carried into EN how could it not? It sounds like Rose stood in the way of reform and opposed it. I also encountered several wives of pastors who were very strong willed especially the "prophetesses" and there were single women in leadership deemed "prophetesses" who were in charge of the girls also and would not hesitate to use their authority on the single girls. In my opinion they were tougher then their husbands and supported the system unflinchingly at least that is the way it seemed to me a low ranking member. These women had alot of authority concerning girl stuff and MCM like EN was a male dominated environment but the ladies I mentioned above were quite intimidating. Women may not have preached from the pulpit but at MLTS the wives all sat next to their husbands up near the front of the stage.

40days40years

05-09-2006, 03:39 AM

Which leads me to another point. You go to a normal young peoples churches the guys and girls are together and dealt with as a group together unless it's an obvious guy or girl thing being discussed. In my maranatha it is like there were two seperate churches, one for the guys, one for the girls. Sure we were all addressed together during general meetings or a potluck or something. Still it is kind of weird looking back on it. The girls got offended because they felt like they were treated like they had cooties at times and did not like how the guys would seperate themselves from them, girls on one side of the room, guys on the other.

40days40years

05-09-2006, 03:47 AM

Has there ever been a coed house in Maranatha/EN? My sister was not in Maranatha but she lived in a coed christian house as a young woman that was filled with Godly kids, male and female that were not messing around.

j2theperson

05-09-2006, 10:46 AM

***Has there ever been a coed house in Maranatha/EN? My sister was not in Maranatha but she lived in a coed christian house as a young woman that was filled with Godly kids, male and female that were not messing around.***

Yes. Most of my friends who attended the USC campus group a few years ago, lived in a coed house. They divided it up by floor, so the females were all together and the males were all together. As far as I know, none of them were messing around.

maranatha1984

05-09-2006, 02:18 PM

40/40 writes:"Okay but what about Rose Weiner? It sounds like she was "imparting" her will on all levels of Maranatha and a lot of what she did carried into EN how could it not? It sounds like Rose stood in the way of reform and opposed it. I also encountered several wives of pastors who were very strong willed especially the "prophetesses" and there were single women in leadership deemed "prophetesses" who were in charge of the girls also and would not hesitate to use their authority on the single girls. In my opinion they were tougher then their husbands and supported the system unflinchingly at least that is the way it seemed to me a low ranking member. These women had alot of authority concerning girl stuff "

84: I agree- the ones who scared them were the ones that questioned. I am planning a part in my Blog entitled "Double Double Boil and Trouble" which will deal with Rose Weiner and the terrific amount of control she had at MCM and the "nuttiness" she added to the ministry.

I will also give some examples of how some of these "handmaiden" sisters who were sent with the planting at Auburn were some of the most cruel and controling people that I ever knew

ginger1

05-09-2006, 02:58 PM

There were abuses by the women in our church but rare. One of them is Phil's own daughter, the one who got caught with Tony. While most of the women , the married ones are a lot more calmer and does not participate much of the abuses going on. Unlike The Maranatha days its more widespread among women.

lc_20

06-24-2006, 03:16 PM

Coppertree,
Was there a thread somewhere that needed a part2 started? I thought I saw a note from someone asking if we could do that for a thread that was getting long. But, when I went back to do it, I couldn't find it. If you let me know what thread it is, I can do that for you Sunday night. (That is, if I can find this on Sunday). http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

coppertree

06-24-2006, 10:57 PM

Hi Lc-Yes I was me, the thread was 'New Every Nation FAQ'; thank you so much your help.}

bill_mack

06-25-2006, 12:12 AM

40/40: Has there ever been a coed house in Maranatha/EN?

Yes. Of course (http://miraclelifemin.org/slideshow/maranatha/default.html).

lc_20

06-26-2006, 01:45 AM

Coppertree,

Done. Wow, it is easy to get behind on these conversations. I went out of town without my laptop for a few days and I feel clueless. I had a great weekend though. Looks like you have a few new people on the FAQ thread. Let me know if there is anything I can help with. Otherwise, I may not read all that I missed while I was gone.

40days40years

06-26-2006, 07:13 AM

Thanks for that link Bill I clicked on that link and those attached to it and have seen others like it all over. You know it makes me kind of mad clicking on all these differant sites run by men who were in Marantha/MSI/EN. Lots of nice pictures, lots of sweet comments about their families, lots of happy pictures of people in church. They seem like the nicest guys and gals in the whole world, funny faces, funny comments, when some of them can be the meanest rattle snakes in the box.

Lots of conflicting emotions, they say such sweet things about their best friends and family, all of them. All of these men had multitudes come up and raise valid questions about the system and the program they are and were part of and they defended the system or deflected criticism away from it instead of being honest. Part of me wonders am I to hard on them? Look at all these pictures of smiling faces at the various services and in private moments. Look at all the love in these pictures.

They were the ones talking about commitment. What about a commitment to common human decency in how they dealt with people who are basically nobodies to them not friends and family? And yeah they have done more for the kingdom of God then I have but???

You know looking at some of the pictures of the leaders kids from this movement?, some of the kids look very, worldly.

upcase20

06-27-2006, 07:13 AM

No, you're not being too hard on them. That's what I saw at my church.

robert_unknown

06-27-2006, 08:58 AM

"I'm curious to know how everyone feels about the MSI/EN pastoral process. How do the leaders actually become pastors? As far as I know, they can't go to just any seminary. What are your thoughts..."

------

i only know it from a perspective when you have already been a pastor and when the ministry merged with or got swallowed by MSI/EN.

there has been a time of "learning to know each other" before the merging happened. i would compare it to a time of dating. however. it was not possible for all the pastors to establish relations to MSI pastors. specially not to the leaders like Mr.Brooks or Bonasso...

beside some smalltalk there was no real interest in learning to know all the pastors who joined the "family".

then there have been visits from other "high ranked" MSI leaders right one "level" under the main leaders (i know that this levels dont exist officially, but practically they do!). they came into the area to learn about the work that was aleady happening here. they was preaching and did meet with some of us. however, i had only the privilege to meet 3 of them within 4 years, other pastors didnt meet anyone at all. whether this was because they have been to occupied in the "main-church" of the area, or it was a stategie by one of our guys to keep contacts flowing through him (like he said by himself) i dont know. an i dont want to blame EN for this.

then, after the merging process, there was a big emphasis laid on us to go to the states and to attend the pastors school, which some of us did. however - i did not. we had small children, and we went through a difficult time with our church, so staying in the states for some weeks was impossible. and also too expensive at this moment of time.

however. EN works much on a relational basis. if you are able to establish relationships to other EN leaders its good. i was only able to "conect" to very few of them. and some have really been a blessing to us, while others always let us feel, that we are rather "tolerated" than really "accepted". some have a kind of monarchial behaviour. this means they always let you feel, that you are not "big enough" to stick together with them. i mean they are the "big guys" (only in their imagination of course) and they let you feel it.

i personally dont care much about this, but if decisions are made about conferences and meetings for all the pastors, and no one, but two "important" guys, gets involved in a decision making process and planning, you start getting to feel a little bit like an idiot.

your "rise" and "fall" depends a lot on your relationship within the movement. and on how "loyal" you are. and of course its connected to your DNA! (how i hate this stupid expression!).

however. i think the status-symbol thing, that we discussed at another place some days ago, is also very important to establish this relationships. not for all of course, but for too many. if everything is "cool" and if you have a lot of success stories to tell (wether they are true or not - no one will check on this). and if you dont mind braging around about your ministry and blessings, and beeing at conferences all over the world, you might be able to establish a lot of relations and to benefit from it also (and be it only for a short season).

and there we come to the abuse of the church. if pastor doesnt have enough money to engage in the things i just described, who has to pay for it? of course the church! but thats enother story..

i have nothing againstr real sucess. but i have seen to much fake...

40days40years

06-27-2006, 09:26 AM

It's not what you know it's who you know - I tend to think that is hyper relevant to this ministry. Look at Leo.

robert_unknown

06-27-2006, 09:33 AM

well said, 40!
its like in politics ;)

upcase20

06-29-2006, 05:58 AM

For the longest time I thought it was on a "buddy buddy" system, how much enthusiasm you had and who you knew, and who you rubbed elbows with. I only found out yesterday that there was a structure that you were suppossed to follow: 1)Trainee(repentance,baptism,holy spirit, assignment to a cell group leader,firm foundations)2)Faithful Trainee (Videos by Bob Weiner,firm foundations test & essays, Covenant review by pastor with Covenant Life Book, Public Expression of Commitment) 3)Reproducer (Win students & trainees ,Bible Studies) 4)Trainer (Ministry Assignment/Assistant Cell leader, Music Group, Drama Group, Other) 5)Christian worker (one week with annointed leader in your field, operate in your function, excell as a group leader in your assignment) 6)Full Time Campus Worker (Assist in Summer Outreach, Teat on operational manuals, Learn Fund Raising and suppport,Write sermons, mater accounting systems, Preach in regular Meetings). . .Remaining Steps For Men Only 7)Assistant Campus Minister (Summer Outreach, Attend leadership Conferences, Plan Outreaches) 8)Campus Minister (Attend two leadership conferences, Graduate as a campus minister) 9)Ordained Minister (Has complete responsibility of operations manual,Meet with Board, Ordination service, Apolstillic and Prophetic Laying of Hands, Grduate as Ordained Minister with Ordination Papers) . . . . .I like being annonymous, so thanks to the person who sent me this, you know who you are.

40days40years

06-29-2006, 06:28 AM

Well that is not exactly like Jesus saying to his trainees go out and preach the gospel don't take any money with you. There was something about a cloak in there to I believe I may be wrong my concordance is lost somewhere in the garage.

mdillon

06-29-2006, 10:51 AM

U20:I only found out yesterday that there was a structure that you were suppossed to follow:

Oh my God the infamous “Nine Steps to Leadership” This came out of the dreaded summer of hell Leadership Lab in 1982 when we spent an entire month in Gainesville (ALL of the leadership) for intensive training. There was plenty of dissent in the elders meetings over this whole thing- it started out with five steps and Bob and others kept thinking up more. There was even discussion on wearing different colored armbands coinciding with each step but thankfully someone brought up the Nazi youth. We were beginning foreign student outreach and adding specific full time evangelists and someone suggested calling them “International Harvesters” which Bob thought was a great idea and we were all laughing our a***s off. Another brother suggested that if lost people came to our meetings and saw a single brother with a name tag that said “Reproducer” they might get the wrong image. It was all laughable. I tossed the entire thing in the garbage as soon as I got home.

40days40years

06-29-2006, 11:04 AM

mdillon calling your self: “International Harvesters” might get you banned from a place like Kansas or something. A fine piece of farming equipment, next thing you know they might try to steal the Jedi light saber.

mdillon

06-29-2006, 11:40 AM

Maybe that explains why all the problems in Manhattenhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifI don't think Bob ever figured out why we thought it was so funny

sameo

06-29-2006, 03:15 PM

Ah, Mdillon-I don't have anything to add really, just wanted to say I was wondering if anyone would finally bring up that hellish MONTH living in Gainseville where we lived in a crammed apartment with two families per apartment with all of our children in tow. Horrible experience. Funny, I couldn't remember why we were even there until you reminded us. The "REproducer!!""LOL Now that's funny!!!

(And it being in Gainesville I now go "lightbulb moment" once again, while we had very uncomfy circumstances BOBW was living in the comfort of his own home?!) HE wouldn't have lasted a day had he ever put himself in the circumstances he required of us! Ha

mdillon

06-29-2006, 03:56 PM

sameo I apologize for bringing up the memory but just wanted those to know where the "Nine Steps" came from. I was not the only one that canned it.I swear some of us were real close to making T-shirts to the effect "I survived the Leadership Lab of 1982" and sell them at subsequent MLTS.

"HE wouldn't have lasted a day had he ever put himself in the circumstances he required of us! Ha"

indeed but Bob was so proud of the sacrifices he put us through.

sameo

06-30-2006, 06:26 PM

Mdillon:"indeed but Bob was so proud of the sacrifices he put us through"

OY vay! ain't that the truth! BTW, MDillon(can I just call you "doc" for short, MD?) & NO problem -in you bringing up that "hellish" memory. hehe It was necessary. I appreciate all of your input. You do a great job at "bringin' things home!" Thanks! I'm kinda glad myself to know what the heck we were doing there. I really couldn't remember!(of course, remember I'm a woman...so I was stuck doing the wifely things...dear Lordy)I could have
cared less what the "Subject matter" was. hah! I was just like.."GET me outta here!"(I wanna go home)ha Bu having said that, it's important that we have a timeline and that we remember these things. So, thanks again, and don't hold back on my account! ;-)

I liked the t-shirt idea! :-)

SameO

wildwood

06-30-2006, 09:23 PM

md: ".... but just wanted those to know where the "Nine Steps" came from."

Possible connection. For what it may be worth. Have you ever heard of a book called the "Master Plan of Evangelism" by Robert Coleman? I haven't read it. I don't know a thing about what happened in Gainesville in '82. But, I've seen passages & chapter titles that seem to follow the general themes you all have been discussing...even a "Reproducer" type chapter. And it was being used at the problem Crossroads CofC in Florida (ICC)late 70's. Kip McKean was cited in a disciplinary letter for the abusive nature of his discipleship program & this book was a line item. I "stumbled" across it on the internet yesterday. I'm beginning to think I'm not stumbling. There was a "send out" from the Crossroads Church in Florida to establish their vision from the Lord (as such) to Boston immediately prior to the Maranatha send out...apparently. I'm just going from internet postings re: timelines. Bill_Mack probably has all the records on this.

mdillon

06-30-2006, 10:23 PM

Sameo thank you for the encouragement.

Wildwood yes I remember reading MPE and it made a profound impact on me. However, I don’t believe the Nine Steps thing came from that (could be wrong) unless Rose read the book to Bob. What impacted me was Coleman’s expose of Christ’s ministry extending through the natural context of his own life instead of a cold-call salesman. The Church at large, though, does have a mean history of taking great books of personal lives encountering Christ and then removing Christ so they can boil it down to a technique and system for their own profit (MPE, Nee’s Spiritual Authority, Mueller’s testimony, and oh, how ‘bout them Scriptures?!)

md

ulyankee

06-30-2006, 11:52 PM

I've heard Leo Lawson talk about how he was influenced by the Master Plan of Evangelism, as well as the Navigators (he used to be in the Navigators).

coppertree

07-01-2006, 12:16 AM

Hi all catching up. Nine steps was in Ky in late 1970's. It was like a sales race, ugh now. Leo was just a brother, as wildwood so well told the tale. It much pre-dated him, but well may have come from an other group. Things were easily borrowed and used, as Bill M. has well told us about here before. Looking into history is a good thing, Lc told us that. Than you all for all your good work.}

mdillon

07-01-2006, 02:48 PM

wildwood- oh, wow, was that your house I was in? I was just looking for miltie- sorry I couldn’t stay, but I’ll take the coffee some other time, thank you.

Leo’s wife is named Pat. We were both campus workers in Murfreesboro in 1978 with Terry and Lesa Jones, my first year in “fulltime” ministry. She is a good friend (Leo, too) but I haven’t had any real contact with them since even before they moved up north in the early eighties. I am moved by your story and pray for your reunion with Butch.

Your story of the Body of Christ on the UK campus in the late seventies is a familiar and oft repeated environment of the organic nature of Christ with His people. Everything is low key, leadership (if there is any) is in the background and non-celebrity, titles are not needed, no budget because people give as led by Him, denominations, group names are in the background, meetings are informal and spontaneous, no building is needed because why does God need one? What He is doing can’t be contained in a building anyway.

And then somebody gets the bright idea to centralize, consolidate, get more efficient, start a “ministry”, you know, so we can be more effective for Christ, and well, you know the rest.

md

flo1151

07-01-2006, 07:54 PM

mdillon and wildwood, The fellow named billy in lexington was billy henderson. I went to high school with him and his sister. I had a bible study in his home for students from Heath high school. (the same one where the shooting took place) He was raised pentecostal but had never spoke in tongues he and others were filled with the spirit in that bible study. I remember going to little towns all around that area including missouri illinois and tennessee to little bible study groups that had sprung up. People would donate the use of their homes to be able to pray and share their faith with others. It saddens me to think where that went. I guess man had a better idea.

Another note on spiritual dna, I don't think I will ever go back into ministry even though some have tried to encourage me. I know the first time things got tough I would revert back to things that worked in the past. Don't you see that is why it is important to know the history of maranatha to understand the every nation ministry. Unless there has been a spiritual breakthrough greater than what I have had in my life the tendency would be to go back to the old ways that was learned from the beginning. I have no doubt I could be a sucess pastoring a church here in america. But being a sucess to most churches are the numbers. I realize deep down that would still be my judge. I am not saying that I can't be used by God in many ways, I just knowmy weaknesses. As clint eastwood says "A man has got to know his limitations"
I was thinking the other day of many friendships that I had lost along the way. The ones that really hurt were the people who left maranatha and I shunned them. Somehow the church had become more important than relationship. I think of Bobby and Jan Bonner in Houston, Terry and Lisa Jones in Germany, Glenn and Ginny Hollis in Texas. Bill and Sarah Wright in Memphis, My own sister and brother-in-law. These and others left the ministry for various reasons and they were demoted somehow in my mind to second class christians. I am a wicked man! I wish I could tell all the ones who left our churches with some kind of guilt and burden that I am truly sorry. I was wrong and will always be wrong for that. I remember telling my wife a few years back that I had never had relationships with people but for unpure motives. It was always to get what I want. I was no better than Bob W, Joe Smith, Nick or Rice. The only thing different about me was you may not have known you were being used by me. One poster said that I was the laziest person he ever knew. That is probably true. When he knew me in my latter days I could not get interested in anything in the ministry, my heart was not in it. To those in Austin I apologize.

john_r_jones

07-01-2006, 09:38 PM

flo,
one of the reasons I decided to pursue being Christian in my cynicism was because of Brennan Manning's writings where he told of years of ministry going down the drain in his failure and lapses into alcoholism. He jokes about his twenty year stint as "Brother Theresa" where he served in various poverty orders around the world. Others of us have lapsed into other "isms" which though possibly more socially acceptable are nonetheless as debilitating for all concerned. I've been an approval addict and insecure about myself which I've also had the grace to see and to express. Our failings are where we meet Jesus for real, and where we do the same for others-help them be real. I was inspired by his willingness to tell not how he succeeded in life but how Jesus succeeded in being his life. The ministry you're called to what ever that may be has always been there inspite of your success or failure. That you can't take credit for it anymore is not a disqualifier in my book. Paul wrote with deep regret and possibly shame of his misdeeds, thankfully his words have spanned centuries because he was a broken man. Otherwise he probably would have been another anonymous religionist of which there are many instead of a father of which there are still too few.
John

coppertree

07-01-2006, 10:26 PM

Hi Flo, Thank you for your posts; your willingness to tell and share your story is impressive, and needed. I remember Billy Henderson; what happened to him?}

wildwood

07-01-2006, 11:52 PM

Flo1151: I've never met you. But I see a brother in the Lord. Whatever path you've taken to be here now...is the path behind you. We are all walking here together (or so it feels to me when I come to this board) arm-n-arm heading towards the promised land...maybe a bit worse for wear, but we are up & walking again. The nice thing about having covered some miles, valleys, fallen, SIN (as in "I"), is that we absolutely know that the Lord is Faithful. Flo, I know you must have preached on the passage about not one sheep missing from the Father's hand...Not one. So, to my way of thinking, only Jesus gets to cast a stone (and He didn't). So, remember to forgive yourself, touch His Robe & be healed, too. The Lord may just want your Joy to be made full again. Jesus is not finished with you yet http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif And, Flo1151,thank you...in the "Fellowship" I was in...there were wonderful Souls & if not for Billy...perhaps he was the nail in the horse's shoe (for youthful folk...figure it out).

Copper: Billy's been Billy for the last 30 years apparently...you will find him & the same people who stayed in the same place...only they now have a website and their children are preaching in front of Patterson OT. I'm thousands of miles from there & I'm praying the Lord holds onto them just as He held onto us...maybe things have changed. At least Billy didn't go global.

matt_hatter

07-04-2006, 11:23 PM

flo. I feel like we know each other, drop me a line if you feel the urge,

mvee207@yahoo.com

sameo

07-12-2006, 02:03 PM

Hey Flo! I posted once in regards to your response above(got deleted)...about the folks whose friendship you felt you betrayed in some way. I wanted to say to you-I have a sneaky suspicion that most , if not all those folks would say to you..forgiven, forget aout it, and most importantly let's go find that good authentic mexican restaurant in Austin. ;-)

When ya think about it...we all did and said things in maranatha we'd like to take back-all of us...it was the nature of how things were set up.

I for one---had/have a lot of respect and love for you and Mz. Flo! Hope to see ya around!

SameO

flo1151

07-12-2006, 10:33 PM

sameo
thanks for the vote of confidence. There seems to be in me a feeling of resignation to the future. The things I once held important don't hold the same glitter. I have just had my 2nd grandchild born and between my kids and grandkids I feel pretty loved and good about myself. The coming clean about your past has been fairly easy for myself because I have very little reputation to lose. Those who have a lot I feel sort of sorry for them. They can never be honest and truly themselves in the church because of their "reputation". I could not clearly see the error of my ways until I had been out of Maranatha for 2-3 years. Even after that I have still learned much about the love and forgiveness of God. I do not judge the people still in EN but the apple I'm sure hasn't fallen far from the tree. I only pray that they will come to the freedom that I've found in Jesus and to get out of the system. I talked to Greg Ball a few months ago and I found him to be on a good path. He may not know what the Father might do but his eyes were definitly open. This was the first time I had talked to Greg in about 13 years. I wish him well. We all need to be ministering out of full cups. I realise some cups need to be repaired others need to be broken but the vessel that is found in the resurrection is much better than the old. As for mzflo she is an asst principal in one of the largest high schools in Georgia. Soon to be a principal and in charge of the state of Georgia's writing across the curiculum. She is speaking this week in Orlando to administrators from all across US. sameo I would hope that everything that I did in was not wasted and appreciate your thoughts and prayers