Can scandals be explained by herd behaviour

[philiprosenthal]

Can scandals be explained by herd behaviour?

I found a most interesting site which investigates the theory that much human group behaviour is similar to animal herd instinct. It is applied to a number of fields including changes in the stock market, pop music, and what is especially relevant to us - scandals. The argument is that people tend to just follow the crowd and respond to the mood of the rest of the herd. Very few will ever venture to move in any other direction. If anyone does, they are punished with all sorts of grunts, frowns and social ostracism.

http://www.socionomics.net/enron_scandal.html

In analysising the Enron and accounting scandals in the USA, the analysts look at them from the perspective that:
i. When the mood was good, people invested in high-risk projects.
ii. When the mood was good, CEO's could get away with bad business practices because no one questioned them.
iii. When the mood turned bad, people started asking questions.
iv. After a long time of bad mood, those questions eventually resulted in the bad practices being exposed.

I think this may help us reconcile how scandals managed to happen in a revival environment. Basically, during the rapid growth period everyone in Maranatha, His People, MorningStar was eurphoric - and few if any thought to question what was going on. Thus leaders could get away with more and more questionable practices. When the mood turned bad - questions were asked and the shaky practices exposed.

It would appear the organisations follow a mood cycle which swings up and down. Now it is in a down time, so all the bad practices are getting exposed. 1980's was good mood for marantha. Late 1990s was bad mood. Mid 1990s was good mood for MorningStar. Late 1980s and 1990s was good mood for His People. Now is bad mood for both.

Reforms and conflicts tend to happen in bad mood times. Usually they are impossible to happen in good mood times because no one listens to the dissenters.

Application 1: Lets push through the repentance and reforms during this bad mood time and make them permanent by writing into by-laws, constitutions, structure, Bible school etc - before the next good mood time hits and everyone goes euphoric and stops listening again.

Application 2: The theory can explain why people go along with and rationalise unethical behaviour in ministry even when they know it is wrong. The peer-pressure to move along with the herd is massive. Thus, chose your herd carefully.

Application 3: The scandals are not happening now. They have been accumulating for years hidden away. What has changed is that the people are developing an attitude of asking questions.

Application 4: FactNet in a sense is an 'alternative herd' to EveryNation hierachy. Within FactNet there is also a lot of peer pressure to 'go along with the herd'. Thus, statements may not always be balanced and fair.

Application 5: As Christians, we need to try resist the basic instinct to go along with herd whether in EveryNation or FactNet and instead to try follow Christ.

[dust]

Philip,
Give examples of the "herd" behavior on Factnet?

[40days40years]

Can scandals be explained by herd behaviour?

I would say sometimes yes but I am sure that scandals can be allowed to continue by herd behaviour. For the most part wrong doing in this ministy causes those trying to confront it to leave or be expelled one by one because when they go through the normal route of reform they are thwarted or even turned in by friends. There have been a handful of times when people united against injustice, thinking they had victory only to discover years later that was not the case. These men at the top know this, they lie again and again (their lies are hard to kill) and eventually they get away with it with fake reforms and fake repentance. Taking their word that they have reformed is a fools errand. If 100% total accountability was the rule for those at the top we would not be here typing away.

You need total committment to total disclosure from the very top. If they don't give it to you the individual churches here have got to leave to save their souls inspite of what the Austin fellow says. LAST CHANCE I believe!

I know you may not believe this philip but sometimes I am an optimist but I fear Ichabod is going to be set in cement sooner then later if they don't change.

[40days40years]

I do kind of see what philip is saying. See the leaders here do not believe they are sheep they are sheperds. A real sheep in a real farm setting could not tell a human sheperd what to do. With this ministry there are those who rule who are the sheperds and then there are the sheep who have no say whatsoever where the "sheperd" will lead. Christ proxy institutionalized. Hey guys at the top, the seat at the right hand of the Father belongs to the J Man not you.

I had a boss who had a crazy black lab and when anyone would sit in his chair other than him the dog would growl at that person. People would ask why is the dog growling at me and the answer would be that your sitting in his masters chair.

[40days40years]

Well that was a little convoluted but it seems that reform is tough here because except for a few isolated individuals/trouble makers (who can be weeded out) the herd is going to support these earthly sheperds who rule in leadership. Eventually the herd catches on but only one at a time which allows them to be dealt with one at a time. I really don't like the limitations on the 30 minute editing limit. Uuugghhh!

[philiprosenthal]

Dust

My example of herd behaviour on FactNet is that the FactNet herd likes to attack EveryNation. Say anything good about anyone or anything in EveryNation and you will get all sorts of grunts and frowns. Realistically though, EveryNation is not all evil. There are good people in it. We were once there. Were we all bad then? So I argue lets be balanced even if it means going against the herd - whether in EveryNation or FactNet.

[40days40years]

herds attacking?, hmmm I thought attacking was the job of packs. Ofcourse we are a pack of benign sheepdogs attacking the wolves trying to molest the herd they just don't know it yet.

[40days40years]

On the other hand I guess you can view, Ron, Rice, Phil, Brett....etc. as part of a herd. They have had 30+ years philip to change what do you propose? Sit down with them and receive a regurgitated lie about reform from them that is only an illusion. Like Ginger said all the normal rules according to man and scripture have been tried and they have not worked any of them, Matt. 18...etc. it has been done over and over. The aggressive mode seems to be getting some results amazingly when everything else has failed with this group it seems I am afraid being nice to these guys is viewed as weakness. I think Ginger is right here. BITE HARD!

[philiprosenthal]

I am not objecting to attacking EveryNation wolves. Notice I am doing a lot of it myself. Just that we remain balanced and fair. Not all the leaders in EN are wolves. Lets be careful not to attack other sheep.

[bill_mack]

HERD MENTALITY
MIND CONTROL AND GROUP THINK

Philip,

What I witnessed at Minneapolis Maranatha went way beyond a "Herd" mentality. The mind-control practice of humiliation through reminding members in public of what they confessed in private caused the suppression of everyone's soul and the rebirth of a satanic "group soul" as ordered by apostate Bruce Harpel. These leaders are not Christian ministers as they appear. They are lock-stepped to doctrines of demons and practices of an occult order that tries to come across as Christian.
********************************************
Excerpt from:
Gazdik, Tanya. “Some Colleges Warn Students That Cult-Like Methods Are Being Used by Christian Fundamentalist Groups” Chronicle of Higher Education, Nov. 15, 1989; vol. 36, no. 11, Discovery pp. A1, A42.

A common misconception is that cults act “weird,” when in truth they try to appear as normal as possible on the surface.

People who study such religious organizations say cults deceive people when they try to recruit them and trap them psychologically, making it extremely difficult for someone to leave. The experts maintain that any group that relies on such practices should be classified as a cult - regardless of its ideology or religious beliefs.

A common misconception, say Michael D. Langone, is that cults are “weird,” when in truth they try to appear as normal as possible on the surface. Mr. Langone is the director of research for the American Family Association, an organization that collects and analyzes information on cults.

Robert W. Nolte: “They don’t have any problems with the gays or the lesbians or the Socialist Workers Party or the Communist Party, but, boy, they don’t want Christians.” [Well Bob, when you psycho-spiritually rape your congregants you are the same as any pedophile. When you practice your version of discipleship/shepherding, there really is no difference between Soviet-style communism and you. -bm]
*******************************************
Excerpt from:
Marshall, William Bruce. Maranatha Christian Churches/ Maranatha campus ministries: Church or Sect?, M.Div. Thesis (Lexington, KY: Lexington Theological Seminary, 1989)p.9.

[Bob Nolte] Many of the names used by Maranatha, such as Christian Center or Campus Ministry, would indicate that Maranatha sees itself as a para-Church organization such as Campus Crusade for Christ or the Navigators. Not so, insists Bob Nolte who is Director of Ministry Relations at the Gainesville, Florida International Office, “We are a denomination.”
*******************************************

[bill_mack]

DENOMINATION VS AN ORDER

I had wondered what the difference was between a denomination, as Bob Nolte refers to Maranatha, and an order. I discovered that an order is where the members are covenanted to one another i.e take oaths such as the MARANATHA STEMENT OF COVENANT. On the other hand, a denomination is a body of people who adhere to a certain set of beliefs and tenets. Robert Nolte lied. MCM/ENC/New Order of the Latter Rain leaders have made oaths and covenants to one another. You can see a video clip of C. Peter Wagner stating how this is done as well as read the General Council Minutes. Freemasons and many other occult compounds do this as well. The difference is that the lower echelon members do not covenant knowingly. They are carefully led into covenanting with their leaders/disciplers through doctrines and acts of unconditional submission.

If you want to refer to that as "herd mentality, then it is because the congregants are "herded" into the stockyards and then into the slaughter house to have their theological throats cut. Then, they are systematically cut up and processed just like meat.

You are dealing with a deadly mind-control cult that has within it's history documented cases of mysterious deaths, suicide, castration, mind-control, theft, fraud, false advertising, criminal cover-ups, payoffs, protection schemes all held together through the untempered morter of lies, false doctrines and deception on a daily basis. The leaders hatch plots on their pillows at night and carry out their doctrines of demons by day. MCM/ENC/NOLR is an evil machine designed by Lucifer himself.

[philiprosenthal]

Bill

What you are saying may be true with respect to the church you went to, but it is not true of all the EN churches and leaders. Thus please don't slam them all in the same breath. This is exactly what I say above. Say anything good about anyone in EveryNation on FactNet and you get heckled. It confirms what I was saying about herd behaviour.

Philip Rosenthal

[dust]

Philip
Can we say EXPOSING TRUTH here instead of attack.

Also, it is understood here EN means the SYSTEM.

We can NO LONGER PROTECT THE LEADERS of this ministry.

They must SAVE their own soul. You call them good people. Weren't some of the pharisees GOOD JEWS? Yes they were, but Jesus called them out, and we are calling out the leaders.

Worship leaders
Cell Group leaders
Ministry Team leaders
Junior pastors
Associate pastors
Senior pastors
EN Employees
Church employees

ALL of these leaders are maintaining the running of an abusive system. It's real...it's painful.

They are NOW warned. They are NOW educated.

They are KILLING this generation. They have BUTCHERED the faith of the young, including some of their own children. REPENT and allow God to restore. And, I am praying for them, with great love in my heart. But, I will NOT PROTECT sin.

Position, Money, Status, Spiritual Pride, Insecurity.....all EXCUSES and SIN if the TRUTH s compromised for such.

[speakword2004]

Earlier this year I watched an inteeresting movie on Hallmark called "The Crooked E" about Enron. Man, could I see parallels.