Authority Are you a rebel a repressor or a reformer

[philiprosenthal]

Authority: Are you a rebel, a repressor or a reformer?

In the mega-power struggle that is going on in EveryNation, I feel one of the core issues at stake is that of authority. Questions in debate are things like: Where does authority come from? Who holds it? What right do they have to do so? How does one reconcile if different authorities disagree? What right do followers have to hold their leaders accountable. Who has the right to interpret the Bible? What if we disagree? etc.

In this debate, I feel there are three types of people:

1. Rebels: People who have been burned and disillusioned with church authority, who want to disgard it altogether. They want anarchy. Often they don't even want to be part of a church anymore. I admit this is a highly understandable approach in a dysfunctional church context, but it is not scriptural.

2. Repressors: Those who defend those above them and the EveryNation hierachy uncritically - often even when they see stuff wrong. Dissent below is squashed, because the hierachy represents God.

3. Reformers: Those who respect church authorities, but believe that authorities must be held accountable with checks and balances to prevent abuse of power. The Biblical reformer views all authority as decending from God. This authority must be respected, but at the same time, no human authority is absolute. Every human authority must be in submission to God and his will as revealed in the scriptures. Power is balanced, because everyone may hold the human authorities accountable to the scriptures according to due procedure (not just by arbitary rebellion).

Jesus for example, acknowledged Pilates authority, even though he knew Pilate was using it unjustly. Paul, when being attacked by the High Priest in Acts, nevertheless repented of having cursed the High Priest, since this was against the law. These men opposed unjust human authority, but not in rebellion - but in greater fear of the God above all of them.

Now I am agitating for reform, but I don't want anyone to misunderstand me as being a rebel. I respect human church authorities. Please don't take my posts as an excuse to arbitarily rebel against all church authority - or to abandon church membership altogether. I uphold church authority. But I reserve the right to hold church authorities to be accountable to the scriptures. If they instruct me to do something or participate that is opposed to the scriptures, then and only then will I go against them. And then only following the due procedure God has given in the scriptures. That I have done, following the procedure outlined in Matthew 18 and 1 Timothy 5.

The authoritarian repressors pretend to be defending God's authority, but actually, what they do is to elevate their hierachy above God and the scriptures. They make an idol out of the ministry. They try to create unaccountable authority within the church - where no one can hold them accountable to anyone except their own little sociological cult hierachy. We reformers must confront them with their disobedience to the scriptures.

[miltietoast]

Jesus for example, acknowledged Pilates authority, even though he knew Pilate was using it unjustly. Paul, when being attacked by the High Priest in Acts, nevertheless repented of having cursed the High Priest, since this was against the law. These men opposed unjust human authority, but not in rebellion - but in greater fear of the God above all of them.
Excellent point Jay

It is interesting trying to follow trail of authority. It seems to ultimately end up with several people rebeling against existing "authority who rebelled against existing authority etc)and starting a new line of authority based on the principle"it is my ball and we will play my way"

[youngnmighty]

Phil, whenever I see a "what kind of a person" are you thing, it reminds me of my old church.
Should we be putting people into any categories in terms of how they are positioned in this debate?

My old church used to go on about 'types' of people. And that usually constructed a narrow view of the field of options and limited our understanding of people's views and made alternative ways of seeing the situation invisible.

For example - I do not consider myself a 'Rebel' according to your list. I consider myself pretty normal, its the EN-HP system thats abnormal. I wouldn't define myself according to it. By saying you're a rebel makes EN-HP a status quo, they're not. In my opinion anyone who leaves is not rebelling, but awoken.

Repressors - I think only the few are Repressors. Most people don't know what the hell is going on. Most people wouldn't defend church practices and methods if they had an idea of what else is around them. So this category is too narrow.

REFORMERS- I'm not a reformer. Reform is like MCM become EN - the system tries to change but can't exorcise its old demons. I'm waiting for the system to die a total death one day. Call it my silly need for vindication. EN-HP leaders need to feel what its like to be cast-out, the one who was 'wrong'. Many churches out there don't need reform coz their leadership is acting like most christians try to. So maybe what one needs is 'rebirth'.

I'm really wary of 'typing' people. It reminds me too much of church.

In reality we're all a mixture of everything. We're varying degrees of this and that.

[speakword2004]

I like the badge "maverick" now that I know what it really means.

Philip, I doubt His People Cape Town has any respect for the fact that you are now a member of another church.

[speakword2004]

From my January blog entry with some tweaking:

Book of Truth and Lies Entry 1: MAVERICK
mav•er•ick
Pronunciation: (mav'ur-ik, mav'rik),
—n.
1. Southwestern U.S.an unbranded calf, cow, or steer, esp. an unbranded calf that is separated from its mother.
2. a lone dissenter, as an intellectual, an artist, or a politician, who takes an independent stand apart from his or her associates.
3. (cap.) an electro-optically guided U.S. air-to-ground tactical missile for destroying tanks and other hardened targets at ranges up to 15 mi. (24 km).Random House Unabridged Dictionary, Copyright © 1997, by Random House, Inc.

Truth 1: I am still immature in how I sometimes behave and think and react.

Lie 1: I'm not un-branded. Jesus did the branding on my heart fifteen years ago.

Truth 2: Sometimes I am a lone dissenter

Lie 2: But I am not the only person who thinks and sees things the way I do. My personality sometimes makes me appear independent, but I am always willing to listen to and discuss other viewpoints. I am not an island. I am not a wierdo with strange ideas. I just don't go for the herd mentality anymore. Maybe I am a lion and not a bull.

Truth 3: I can fire to the heart of the matter very quickly. I can pinpoint the target with precision. In truth, I can see what is wrong and know where it is and which direction to take. But then again, a good person always needs to check what is guiding them.

Lie3: I am not a "loose cannon", but a beautiful state-of-the-art complex machine. I may need some oiling and adjustments every now and then, but beware.

[miltietoast]

speak-separated at birth are you my twin?

[philiprosenthal]

Miltie. A admit there may be more categories than the three above, but it helps at least to start the differentiation somewhere for the sake of logical argument and not lumping everyone together. Feel free to add more categories and sub-categories.

Nevertheless, understand that the categories I refer to above are those involved in the power-struggle/authority debate. There are other people on this board who are not involved in that at all. There are other people here seeking fellowship and restoration from spiritual abuse.

The main point above, is that the EveryNation 'repressor' hierachy try to cast themselves as the defenders of God's authority and everyone who opposes them as a rebel. This is the opposite of the truth. A lot of people are as you say, clueless about what is going on in the EN hierachy. The 'repressors' tend to be the true rebel's against scriptural authority, seeking to replace it with their own false spiritual authority.

Believe me, His People Cape Town hypocritical elite do care that I am currently under authority. So they first threaten the other authority with legal action unless they shut me up. Then, without telling me about this threat, they ask me whether I will submit to the other authority telling me to cover up their scandal if the other authority tells me to. My reply was that first the other authority must publish an article explaining from scripture how they get the right to instruct me to cover up scandal. The other authority wouldn't do that - and admit there is no such right in scripture - so there is no hold on me. Had they published such an article, then I would have engaged with them on it in public debate - and I am sure they would have been forced to back down, since no decent Christian would tolerate such a concept.

They tried a sneaky trick to abuse church authority, but it failed.

[miltietoast]

phil you should be responding to speak.It was his post not mine. But your case is perfect, who really has authority and by what unscriptual basis did they lay claim to it.Why is it always used to manipulate asituation instead of servant leadership?

[philiprosenthal]

Youngnmighty: "the system tries to change but can't exorcise its old demons."

I think you hit the nail on the head. This is exactly the issue we are dealing with and why the issue of authority is so important. The word 'exorcise' in Greek means 'authority'. You can only exsorcise a demon if you have the authority from God to do so. This is why compromised EveryNation leaders who try fix the problems of the ministry are not succeeding. They can't deal with them, because they are compromised. If you are compromised, you don't have authority. That is exactly what one pastor told me as the reason why Paul Daniel couldn't deal with the issue of abortion sin in his own church: he had no moral authority to do so. Neither could his compromised 'yes men' around him. They were under Paul Daniel's authority, but not God's authority, so they couldn't deal with this sin.

I believe that His People Cape Town at least (and possibly other ministries) is a church under the control of an evil spirit. That demon entered the church through Paul Daniels wickedness and the churches compromise - and has never left. It causes spiritual paralyis, spiritual abuse and pain. It must be confronted and cast out - just the same as casting a demon out of an individual. Note that Matthew 18, the same scripture that deals with church discipline also deals with the binding of evil spirits. It also incidently, deals with the issue of elitists who want to be the greatest.

That is why it is of the utmost important that we who confront sin in EveryNation must keep our own lives pure and free from sin - so that we have God's authority in such confrontation. Also we must seek his guidance in doing so.

I have dealt with an institutional demon before that was infesting a Christian organisation. Praise God, that institution is now free from this demonic influence. It does work.

What is needed for such institutional exorcism is lots of prayer, humbling ourselves before God's authority, church discipline, repentance, confrontation of sin, confession of sin etc.

[speakword2004]

Miltie,
I support Philip's case. But HP Cape Town has no respect for Phil or his new church.

Miltie, wait till you hear the whole story. Made me sick to the stomach.

[lablady2]

You don't wanna get mixed up with a girl like me. I'm a loner, Philly. A rebel.