Is Manila any better

[philiprosenthal]

IS MANILA ANY BETTER?

I ask whether anyone can help me on whether EveryNation Manila is more healthy spiritually or whether it also has similar problems to those elsewhere on this board?

The reason I ask is that Steve Murrell is now the leader, based in Manila - so one would presume that his actions are likely to be similar to what has happened in Manila in the past.

I encountered one pastor from Manila who caused a lot of problems in Cape Town - by promoting hyper-authoritarian discipleship to the exclusion of everything else. We were told that South Africa was being re-modelled along Philippino lines because Rice Broocks thought we had a similar culture. Nevertheless, someone else on this board says that this hyper-authoritarianism does not reflect the way things on done there. Nevertheless, this pastor still has a job with EveryNation in Manila.

Steve Murrell I feel has gained a lot of credibility by helping to sort out problems in America in California and Palm Springs - but doesn't seem to have done much more to reform the movement since then. He also, like Rice, doesn't seem to answer correspondence. Can someone from Asia englighten me a bit?

Specifically, do the churches in Asia and Manila in particular also have problems with hyper-authoritarianism, elitism, cover-up of scandals, money management etc? Or are they healthier - with the potential to help reform the rest of the movement?

Philip

[speakword2004]

The Philipines has a similar culture to South Africa? We have many cultures on South Africa. I come from a white middle class English speaking culture. I don't see how Philipino culture is similar to mine.

Ginger, could you explain. Please do so in Zulu for the majority of South Africans so that we demonstrate how similar our cultures are.

Perhaps Rice meant church culture? Before TRony Danza jumps in with a "Who's the Boss?" reunion special I would like to jump in and ask: Who is the boss of EN?

Whom shall the sheep of EN follow? Vanilla Manila or the good ol' US of A?

[philiprosenthal]

Speakword

Rice's idea that South African culture is similar to the Philipines shows how little he knows about the subject. EveryNation denominational intervention was very helpful in sorting out scandals, such as getting rid of Paul Daniel, but EveryNation micromanagement that came after that I think was mostly counter-productive.

Nevertheless, my main interest is, if one assumes the delegate sent out got it wrong and was not really following the Manila/Asia model of governance but just his own system - is the real Manila/Asia church a model worth following?

[speakword2004]

Good question. I suppose for many of the members of EN the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Then again, if you are used to junk food are you going to switch to fruit and vegetables? That is if Murrell has anything to offer EN with leadership. After all he came out of Maranatha squeeky clean-well that is according to Steve he did.

And sorting out the scandals? My sense is that EN is very good at covering up the scandals.

[robert_unknown]

thats the most irritating.
people get treated worse when they disagree/ critizise things.
its like a communist gouverment treats itself and the citizens!

[ulyankee]

I would say that asking if Manila is "any better" (how about healthy, since it could be "better" than US leadership in a relative sense and still not healthy) is an important question.

Because it appears that with the LA office's closing and the operations moving to Nashville, that the administrative headquarters are now in Nashville (the new LA) and the international/governmental headquarters are now in Manila.

Manila's now being considered an international head office can be found in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Every_Nation), which currently can be considered an official EN source.

Another source that leads me to believe this is Kevin York's sermon when he announced to his congregation that he was moving to Nashville to be the executive director of Every Nation Churches. He stated that it was confirmed by speakerphone with the board in Manila.

[youngnmighty]

...man, i can't believe that Mancauo was kicked out of Cape Town.
That guy went to Grahamstown to preach once. And you know how it is, everyone is just falling over the leader like stupid idiots just coz a 'leader' is around.

And in Grahamstown, nobody seemed to have followed up and told us that the idiot was fired for messing up the Cape Town church.
When was he fired?
Maybe I had left by then so I didn't hear the announcement about how our esteemed guest turned out to be a pyscho.

[philiprosenthal]

Youngnmighty

To the best of my knowledge, he has unfortunately not yet been fired. Just made to apologise to the Cape Town congregation for his bad behaviour. He still has a job in Manila. That is why I am a bit cautious about the credibility of the Manila church.

[youngnmighty]

oh thanks for correcting that....

its weird... him being made to apologise...
its weird that these leaders are just so immature... but when they preach, they have this whole authority and credibility thing going for them

[speakword2004]

I call it "The Curse of the Were-Rabbit". Seriously, here and elsewhere Philip has commented on some of the foundational errors made in HP during the early years and the problems HP has had with such youthful, seemingly anointed youthful leadership and a gullible youthful church.

[ginger1]

Hmmm is Manila any better. I would say yes, not totally perfect by the way. The control , abuse and legalism DO EXIST in manila. And the philippine leadership does not deny it. Unlike the US EN, they vehemently denied it for years. The philippine leaders also have asked a few people to step down due to this. The main problem is some have learn to play the religious games. That means kissing up. And those people who kiss up to the philippine leaders have stayed and not get caught.

Currently, In Steve Murrell's church, People are LEAVING because Steve's involvement with the US EN. Not just his involvement but also the most current one is the cover up of the financial scandal. Some have stop their tithings. Some REFUSED TO even attend Rice Brookes "businessmen meeting" in the philippines.

Another problem lies with the Philippine leaders is to shrug off the filipinos when they start asking question. Or even talk down on them, some even DENY about whats happening in the US EN Board. Some were shocked that Rice brookes is not the president any longer but Steve Murrell.

Steve Murrell need a Philippine leadership meeting like what happened in the January Palm Spring meeting. He needs to be open to ALL his pastors and tell them whats going on and so if anybody in the philippine congregation ask, they can be answered honestly and openly.

Its because a lot of the Philippine pastors who stood loyal not just to Steve but also to the entire EN movement. Even though its corrupt to the core. There are Philippine pastors who chose to be blind and some just plain ignorant and when ask, they would not know.

This Ministry was established in 1982. And there are people , who were trained and discipled by Steve Murrell who are not in leadership are LEAVING. Steve Murrell has taught us to learn to think of our own. But some of the newest ones, who were not trained by Steve Murrell, were not trained to think on their own but what the leaders said. Due to loyalty to Steve Murrell and loyalty to EN.

I do not know what hold the Philippine congregation future. But if this congregation break apart, it would be on Steve Murrell's hand simply because of his involvement in EN.

It remind me of a story in the bible. 2 chronicles 35.

King Josiah is a righteous king before the Lord. He went into the battle. To fight his enemy. Unfortunately for him, The Lord spoke through his enemy. The person whom he does not trust.

The Lord can speak even to our own worst enemies, God can choose and used anybody, even our own worst enemy. Our job is to recognized HIS VOICE. It will be our own fault if we DO NOT RECOGNIZED HIS VOICE. As for King Josiah , he died not knowing that was the Lord's voice warning him.

Hopefully that will not happen to Steve Murrell. I do hope he recognized the Lord's voice even with his own worst enemies. Before it is too late.

[gilligan]

The EN culture that was responsible for standards such as:

The bitterness and offended doctrine (a standard that nobody can uphold and often violated by the spiritual leaders), legalism and control, "spiritual authority & covering", apostolic authority, whoever questions the leadership is rebellious, gossip is not gossip if you're the pastor, God speaks through authority (aka the pastor), accountability among the leadership that is practiced upward and not to the general membership, absent financial transparancy or accountability, etc,

is the same culture that molded Victory Philippines. Both cultures have the same birthdate.

Just in the last few months, it appears that Pastor Steve had no choice but to accept the issues about Rice and company, although very reluctantly. Understandably, for about half their lives they have worked and labored together.

Is Manila any better? Well, let's look and examine the fruit.

Normally, in any cult leaning church, the malpractices are exposed by former members. In the case of EN and Victory, the cultish practices are being exposed by CURRENT members, not mere attendees that float from one church to another. And what's very interesting is that the average profile goes like this - they are (very) long time members, they have very good foundations of discipleship, they have served in high levels of church leadership, many are not paid servants.

But why is it that these long time members are so interested in forums like Factnet? Simply because they feel like they are reading their own experiences. What you all experienced in the US is very similar to the culture in the Philippines.

Will the events at EN become the events of Victory? That all depends upon the fruit. If the fruit will change, so will the culture.

I don't see how another name change (Maranatha, Morning Star, EveryNation, next?) in EN can save the Movement. Even if Pastor Steve is now the President of EN, for as long as the culture is not healed, the exact same abuses will occur - even if Pastor Steve is in charge. And once again, sooner or later, everyone will be a victim of the culture.

[gilligan]

The EN culture that was responsible for standards such as:

The bitterness and offended doctrine (a standard that nobody can uphold and often violated by the spiritual leaders), legalism and control, "spiritual authority & covering", apostolic authority, whoever questions the leadership is rebellious, gossip is not gossip if you're the pastor, God speaks through authority (aka the pastor), accountability among the leadership that is practiced upward and not to the general membership, absent financial transparancy or accountability, etc,

- is the same culture that molded Victory Philippines. Both cultures have the same birthdate.

Just in the last few months, it appears that Pastor Steve had no choice but to accept the issues about Rice and company, although very reluctantly. Understandably, for about half their lives they have worked and labored together.

Is Manila any better? Well, let's look and examine the fruit.

Normally, in any cult leaning church, the malpractices are exposed by former members. In the case of EN and Victory, the cultish practices are being exposed by CURRENT members, not mere attendees that float from one church to another. And what's very interesting is that the average profile goes like this - they are (very) long time members, they have very good foundations of discipleship, they have served in high levels of church leadership, many are not paid servants.

But why is it that these long time members are so interested in forums like Factnet? Simply because they feel like they are reading their own experiences. What you all experienced in the US is very similar to the culture in the Philippines.

Will the events at EN become the events of Victory? That all depends upon the fruit. If the fruit will change, so will the culture.

I don't see how another name change (Maranatha, Morning Star, EveryNation, next?) in EN can save the Movement. Even if Pastor Steve is now the President of EN, for as long as the culture is not healed, the exact same abuses will occur - even if Pastor Steve is in charge. And once again, everyone will be a victim of the culture.

[speakword2004]

I am gladdened to read that as you say existing senior leadership is starting to speak out regarding the problem and inherent issues. Obviously you believe that Godly reform is possible at this time, but that extensive healing is required. I would encourage you to post at the ReformationStation as well as many EN members read there and may very well find it easier to assimilate your views there. I am hopeful that more people like you within the church can be reached and become the Godly internal influence that it so desparately needs.

[ginger1]

You know what so funny is that the people who are the worst gossiper and Slanders are the leaders themselves. The worst offenders of them all.
As long as there is no freedom of speech in the church, Gossip will occur.
Giligan , can you elaborate what are the issues Steve "reluctantly" accept ? The report I am getting is that. Now they do not think what they did is as bad. Even those illegal ones.
As I said, the Cover up Has begun .

You do not need to be highly intelligent to figure this thing out.

[ginger1]

I spoke with 4 different people. I am so out of touch with whats happening in the philippines. I am sad to say, That EN culture has affected the Philippine church. I really do not know the extent of it though.
There are Philippine pastors and leaders who spoke up against legalism ,control and abuses. Those pastors are being removed immedietly. They do instill fear among the leaders.
I was also told its not as bad as the American EN churches.
I was wondering when did this happened ? My guess was when MSI and the philippine joined together between 1996 - 1998. The US EN leaders went to the philippine church to preach and teach their legalism,abuse and control. So it affected the leaders, love of money is also the root of the problem.

There are people who are speaking up, but as usual, like the US EN Leaders, they were labeled as Rebellious or Bitter. To shut them up. I was also told they would go to the extent of calling up people and tell them "Don't talk to this person or that person".

As I walk with the Lord, adversary always comes. I never said it is easy, but it is always an opportunity to choose to act Christlike or act the opposite. I never said that I have perfected it. But it made me conscious how I behave nowadays, because the Lord is watching. How I think, how I react.

Now for the philippine leaders to start labeling people as rebellious or bitter, or even calling not to speak to this person or that person. Anybody who did that have fallen so far from God's grace.
I have friends who I have disagreed with, but I will never , ever label them as bitter or rebellious. I do not even do that to the people I dislike most. My current friendship is now in a funny situation. It made me laugh when I visit a friend and they told me to keep quiet on the background because so and so hates me from EN and they do not want them to know I am there visiting them. I never tell them to choose them or me. Or even tell them do not talk to this EN member because they are deceived. My friends always told me that they hang on with them because they value their friendship.

I realized when I woke up years ago, God has worked with my insecurities and it almost purge out of me. I still remember the year 1998. It almost gone. I am becoming more transparent.

I never let my friends choose and I always kept quiet on the background when these EN people called. It does not bother me. My friends told me they value their friendship with EN people. I am fine with it.

But for the first time in years, two of my friends stood up for me when the EN people start to slander me. And telling my friends to stop talking to me. They stood up, they finally had it with the EN people. They told them they are NOT allowed to tell them who they are to talk to or who they choose to have friends with. They set their boundaries. My friendship remain the same. One of them even boldly said "Ginger" is here visiting. Which was a big surprised for me. I don't have to hide any longer !

My advice to the Philippine Leaders, realized your INSECURITY. If you value your people, If You value their intelligence, if you value their friendship and loyalty of these people. Give them freedom to choose.

When you start labeling people as bitter, rebellious,deceived and even start calling people not to talk to so and so. How sad it is that you have not realized you have fallen so far from God's grace.

(Message edited by ginger1 on July 19, 2006)

[ginger1]

Just to keep all the Philippine people updated.

Just to let you know, your tithes ARE being send to Nashville. I spoke with one of the top Asian EN Board and thats what he told me. I do not know if they have stop sending money to Nashville. But thats the latest I know of.

[ginger1]

Here is the new news, I was told that Steve Murrell was confronted if their tithes was being sent to US Every Nation. Steve denied it.

Question is. Has he repented that he has send ten years of the philippine tithes to (his friends) the US MSI-EN ?
Because its very clear those money was used to support the wealthy lifestyle of these leaders, none of the money was used for the mission. And only the maximum of 25% of World Partners revenue actually went to the Missions. (based on 1998 VCM funding - Revenue)
Those money could have been used for the missions or the provincial pastors salaries.

(Message edited by ginger1 on July 24, 2006)

[ginger1]

Oh also, just do some correction, the pastor mentioned above, its not his brother in law that got hired, its his own brother that became the associate pastor of the church.

I also have a question for Steve Murrell. If there is nothing wrong with the EN finances, why NOT the full disclosure ? Why hide it ?

[robert_unknown]

"Those money could have been used for the missions or the provincial pastors salaries. "

when my church and my support broke down they told me "we cannot help you, there is no money laying around"... this all after they told me some months ago "we will not let it happen, that you break down financially, we are here to help you..."

well - i guess on the priority list of missions i must have been at the bottom...