Who is mad Are we mad Are they mad

[philiprosenthal]

ARE WE MAD

The first time I explicitly told the His People leadershp that the churches actions were unethical, I was told by leaders that I was mad. His People was the most morally outspoken church in the country - how could they be doing wrong? Impossible. They would look at me crossed eyed and ask if I was okay. I was asked 'Was I feeling better?'

The second time was when I explicitly challenged them (with others) of the need to reform the governance of the organisation. I was told I was mad to think I could tell the church what to do.

Since then, more reform minded leaders have told me they think certain EveryNation elite leaders are mad - in terms of their desire to control people.

So the question is 'Who is mad?'. Are we mad or are they mad?

It would appear that the EveryNation elite live in a different reality, and perceive the world completely different from everyone else - as if they rule the world on God's behalf and everyone else must just submit to them. Normal people who don't believe this, they consider crazy.

In researching the issue of abuse and spiritual abuse specifically, I found that the most common initial response of both abusive churches and abusive families to allegations by one of their members, is to try to label that objector as mad.

For those unprepared, a group of church leaders who you respect labelling you as mad can be quite stressful.

This was in fact how Paul Daniel initially managed to get the church to ignore allegations of adulterous relationship when his first mistress split on him - by telling people she was demon posessed so they wouldn't believe her.
The same happened to the prophets:

HOS 9:7 The days of punishment are coming, the days of reckoning are at hand. Let Israel know this. Because your sins are so many and your hostility so great, the prophet is considered a fool, the inspired man a maniac.

Jesus Christ was accused of the same:

JN 7:19 Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me?" JN 7:20 "You are demon-possessed," the crowd answered. "Who is trying to kill you?"

John the Baptist was also accused of being mad.

MT 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, `He has a demon.'

Have you or someone you know been accused of being mad or demon posessed when you blew the whistle or you spoke up for righteousness or reform?

[speakword2004]

Just the usual name calling and labelling. It is just a manifestation of the insecurity, lies and deception.

But, Philip you have made a few ex-EN'ers cross eyed as well. Maybe you have a gifting. I know I do.

[dust]

Philip,
My email is dust4truth@comcast.net

[maranatha1984]

Tikie: Uh to all you Americans the South African UK use of the word "Mad" means "Crazy" not "angry" as we butcherers of the King's Engish here in the states ususally use it...I know this only because I work with a bunch of Brits and Aussies...

[philiprosenthal]

Yes. Tik is correct. I didn't know Americans might read 'mad' as meaning 'angry'. Otherwise I would have used the word 'crazy'.

[bill_mack]

REFORMATION
JUDGMENT OF REPROBATION

Philip: ....I was told by leaders that I was mad.

This is a classic response that many evil entities use to demonize those who would speak the truth. The Communists tell their "dissidents" that they are "mentally ill" and then put you in a "re-education" camps. The medical priesthood here in America has doped up countless you and hooked them permentantly on Thorazine, Prolixin, Haldol, Lithium, etc. under the medical guise that they have "Attention Deficit Disorder" or ADHT. Try taking away the batteries from their MP3 players and pulling the plug on Nintendo and you might see them heading toward normalcy...

Just last year, I walked in to Bruce Harpel's new Maranatha location and confronted the whole troupe. As usual, junior pastor Dean Bonde, the music leader and in-house prophet was leading everyone astray. Harpel in his usual practice of intimidation told me, "Bill, I can't help you" as if I was mentally deficient.

American Federal, State and local government leaders demonize anyone who expose their masonic plans for a New World Order as well as government leaders in the UK, Canada, etc. I choose to stick with the Word of God and it seems that as time goes on, leaders in all spheres who reject truth, be it spiritual, financial, industrial, sexual, moral and ethical truths, etc. are now being judge according to the GREAT JUDGE who stated openly what He would do to those who do not LOVE THE TRUTH, namely, to blind them and turn them over to a REPROBATE MIND.

Pastor Bob DeWaay taught us a theological term that I wasn't familiar with. It's called the JUDGEMENT OF REPROBATION. In sum, it means that the person under this judgment is held with a rebrobate mind and cannot repent save for divine intervention. I believe we are witnessing just such a judgment of reprobation with the leaders we are dealing with. I believe that this judgement can include God giving the person under judgment a depraved mind. I emphatically believe the the sexual misconduct of the New Order of the Latter Rain and Word-of-Faith leaders talked about here have a depraved mind as judgment for the decades of heresies they have infected and injected into the Body of Christ.

I believe that Bruce and Johnnye Lynn Harpel and their "undershepherds" are all under the judgement of reprobation as are the rest of the false leaders, big and small.

Q1: Is it possible to have reform when God Himself has placed His Judgment of Reprobation on the leaders who, for decades, refused to repent???

Q2: Could it be that one should seek the Lord to find out what He wants: reformation or disbabding? After all, it's His HOLY NAME that has been blasphemed here.

In any event, this house of cards has been built on hermetic and neoplatonic trash and couldn't stand if it wanted. IMHO, at this point, all we are looking at is a phony storefront for the Lodge.

[philiprosenthal]

On the humorous side, I once had a black friend ask me "Philip - can you speak American?". He told me he had an American lecturer for a few months at varsity and understood nothing he said.

Also another friend went to New York and tried to order stuff at a restaurant - only to find the waiter couldn't understand his order till he put on an American accent.

[speakword2004]

Strange but I just flicked through a rerun of "Mad about You" on TV. There is a pop song around at the moment that's called "Crazy"' that is very catchy.
My paternal andma was a Yank and I grew up hearing my dad use the word mad for angry a few times
.

[philiprosenthal]

Okay. Lets rephrase the question for the benefit of the Americans:

WHO IS CRAZY? ARE WE CRAZY? ARE THEY CRAZY?

Please lets have your thoughts.

[robert_unknown]

look, phil... its easy as this:

this people create their own little subculture. with own terminology, ethics, language. if you judgte things from a healthy logical point of view, or even from a biblical point of view, it may contradict/ come in conflict with their view.

if people from "outside", not from within the cultic group, come up with certain questions or concerns, its called "persecution for the gospels sake". if people from within do the same thing, they get called "crazy", "bitter"(thats always a nice one to discredit mature people), "rebellious" (in the meanwhile i dont think thats something negative anymore if you "rebell" against a corrupt and twisted organisation)... its the same thing that the communists did to quite the oposition. its easier than to humble yourself. and to start questioning yourself, and your values... and to repent.

so we are crazy in their eyes?

i dont care at all! i really dont.

the most important thing is, that i start to realize and experience God and His grace again.

so i am "gracy"!! ;)

[dust]

ROBERT that is marvelous!
I am in agreement. I am gracy too!

WHO CARES WHAT EN THINKS or if they are crazy.
They are simply WRONG, by any biblical standard.
END.

[philiprosenthal]

Thanks Robert. I think the problem is that with their subculture you speak of - there are actually two sets of ethics:
1. The public set of ethics, which is in their official documents and written teachings (and which I support).
2. The unwritten, word of mouth, passed on by mentoring, modelling and example set of ethics, which is basically that everything is measured in terms of whether it benefits the hierachy or not. The hierachy is ultimate value. Anything done to protect the hierachy is good or at least excusable. Anything done against the hierachy is not excusable. Any objection from someone below can be dismissed. And anyone senior who does object is quickly demoted and thrown out. So the wicked system reinforces itself.

I think that the senior guys get quite used to this set of double ethics. i.e. Anything which just involves people outside the hierachy is judged according to the Bible (ethical system 1). Anything that involves people inside the hierachy is judged according to ethical system 2 (how it benefits the hierachy). Anyone who doesn't accept this double ethical system and tries to impose system 1 (the Bible) on the hierachy is considered crazy.

[robert_unknown]

"I think that the senior guys get quite used to this set of double ethics"

doublethink... doublespeak...
its a VERY dangerous thing! it really is. Because Christians get used to live under a thyranny. they don´t question double ethics anylonger. they don´t question false beahvior from the top anylonger.

it gets considered as moraly good when you submit under abusive/ thyranic leadership even WHEN you experience/ discover wrongdoings! it gets considered as "biblical" when people "cover the sins of their fathers", even if this sins contradict the bible or the federal law.

on the other side people who love rightessnes and truth and speak up against this things get discredited. their reputation gets destroyed.

as i wrote one time - i was shocked who bible-believing christians soldiers suport their president, even by killing other people. they think whatever Bush does, the hand of God is upon it!

so with this wrong and abusive and unbiblical view on authority and leadership, you create a sub- and later a culture that TOLERATES abuse even to the state of torture and murder!

In Europe we had many troubles with this sort of worldview, which was formed over centuries through the Roman Catholic Church and the Cesars and the monarchial structure.

Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Tito... They ALL benefited from a wrong understanding of authority and leadership.

So you american Christians watch it, and start fighting against this!

First its NOT biblical!
Second its NOT right!
Third its dangerous for the future generations!

[youngnmighty]

i am not mad. but sometimes, there are signs of some madness in me as i eat up and search for every little detail on MSI/EN/HP. I want all salacious details of the adulterers (coz my church didn't spare me those of young congregants who fell), I want the scandalous details of the money grabbers (coz my tithes went into their effing U.S. pockets, or their lavish Cape Town lifestyle), or the shocking details of the authoritarians (coz too many people get hurt and made too feel they're so disobedient).

I want to know it all.

My madness is the belief that I deserve to know everything. I'm refuse to close of doors in my mind anymore out of years of training myself to right-think and self-censor. After all the emotional trauma i went through, mostly in isolation, i want every detail. I want to know who did what, when, with who, why, and WHY THE HELL DIDN'T I KNOW ABOUT IT WHAT I WAS IN CHURCH!?!

So i'm mad (angry) and mad (crazy) for the little details.

i'm building up an asernal of info as my weaponry. Coz every time i encounter church-people, i need to be able to remember that I'm not the crazy one, they are. This bank of info protects me from my self-doubts, from my fear that leaving was an error.

They're mad-crazy as in loony. I'm mad I almost want to get back at them.

[philiprosenthal]

Bill

I personally wouldn't link the issues in EveryNation to the New World Order etc, but I do share your view of the type of judgement which some EveryNation have suffered from. It is well described in Romans chapter 1. Refusal to glorify God results in foolish darkened hearts that go into idolatry and then sexual immorality and all kinds of other misdeeds. If people won't repent of less obvious sins, then he hands them over to more obvious sins that everyone can see. I would even argue that all the abuse going on in EveryNation is God's judgement against the followers who idolise such leaders. As with most types of God's judgement, it is a blunt instrument - the innocent also suffer.

We must therefore urgently call for them to repent of their sinful idolatry of the apostles, which is manifested in slavish obedience to hyper-autocratic abusive authority.