Grace If Itbs TRue

[john_r_jones]

Well let's try this again I accidently posted this in the Blog world so let's try to gather here about this subject and explore it together.

John

[40days40years]

Well that fiasco took a little wind out of my sails. Jesus is a parodox he is super tough with the pharisees but with the worldly sinners he is generous. When do we show mercy to Phil B and Rice? If Philip R see's our records it is sayanara or however you spell it (smirk). Where does Gods grace kick in? Is that what your asking?

- Then there is the middle east thing both sides seem right. If I was a normal lebanese person I would not want to be blown to bits because I could not eject the hezbollah/hells angels from my neighborhood but if I was in Israel I would not want to have an unnoficial army attacking me from a state within a state.

[john_r_jones]

I am replying I guess and continuing a line of thought we were pursuing in a thread about leadership and their pecadillos. I respect the celibacy of Phillip and others, some of theauthors I quote are celibate and I've been inspired by their writings. I obviously have not been so there we have it.

I sometimes chuckle for lack of a better descriptive at those who want to ban Gay marriage for example becasue we heteros have done so well with the institution. I say why should we have all the fun let the Gay community struggle with monogamy, budgets, credit scores and old age benefits and spousal isues. Or we crusade for the unborn but are indifferent to the born unless they agree with us. We pillory Hollywood and cite the downfall of the industry as the early sixties when the influence of the church was no longer wanted. Truth be known the church board that viewed and rated the suitability of films was disbanded by the church and abandoned their role in Hollywood the MPAA rating system is a response to that vacuum. Hollywood is at present inviting the participation of Christians to such an extent that a friend of mine has been asked yea I say begged to come out to LA and be an influence.

I sincerely hope the church gets over its present spate of seeking to Christianize the world and instead begin to love and serve the world. Jesus said something about seeking and saving the lost not ostracizing them or condemming them. We marginalize, demonize, and alienate the very people we are called to love. We make enemies of the sort of people Jesus sought out and ministered to, "As you've done it to the least of these you've done it to me" kids that also means if you've exploited, denigrated, rejected, hated these least folks you've done it to Jesus.

As a registered Republican I marvel at how far the party of Abraham Lincoln, a dedicated Christian has come from seeking to defend the rights of the oppressed and the scorned of society, much less the church. Then there is the liberal wing of the church a place I had never been in some thirty years of Christianity untill lately. Liberation Theology meets The Religious Right in my community here in Baton Rouge. We've had to the need is enormous and isn't getting met by the government fully. Which is probably as it should be. What Jesus is looking for is the rejoicing in heaven over one soul being saved and brought into his kingdom in the final analysis we are guilty of missing the mark if we don't get that.

I sometimes wonder about a church that has congratulated itself on personal holiness and assumes its bigotry and distaste for sinners is sanctified behavior.

John

[john_r_jones]

I also want to say to Phillip I think there is a meeting of the minds in regard to personal integrity and holiness and as we seek common ground in our community whatever there may be of it to reach the lost. When I say lost I also refer to those washed overboard in the church who've been maimed and bruised and beaten in the name of religion.

Since I'm adding I'll add that I've been bigoted, self righteous, and scornful of the needy and am stung by the knowledge of that deeply.

Thanks,
John

(Message edited by john r. jones on August 12, 2006)

[40days40years]

John I am just confused. I don't think being gay is o.k or the cross dressers but I understand their dilema, they like green eggs and ham. It is kind of like if you like black jelly beans.

Yeah the angels rejoice over a bank robber changing his ways but this other stuff? Bill, you and philip figure it out for me, o.k?

[john_r_jones]

40/40,
our Christian heritage was afraid of being confused or in a quandry as to what to do-faith dilemma be thy name.

My youngest is going through a Prodigal phase and the young fellow she's moved in with wants to build some furniture. They've called and asked me if I would help them or teach them to make furniture. First thought is "Yeah c'mon over I'll run ya through the planer dude!" As a father the natural reaction, what I said was "Maybe we could build something simple so you can develop your skills and see if a pool table is what you really want to make for your small apartment."

Thirty something years ago as I came to the downtown studio of the radio station I saw for the first time two gays kissing back in the control room I almost yaked. I'm wired to like girls I saw my wife coming off the plane yesterday afternoon and she was the lovliest sight and still makes my heart pound with love. I can't imagine the frustration folks go through who are wired differently, it's not just gays, some folks have different wiring. Alcoholism and addiction for example Robin Williams seen treking around Oregon at Hazelden ashen faced and shakey, quiet and polite to passersby. Or Mel Gibson plauged by John Barleycorn imperils his existence at the Malibu motor-mouth speedway. Others face depression and discouragement, loneliness and despair or have religious addictions and can't face reality.

All of God's creatures face their own private hell in some form or another some all the time some only rarely. "In the world you will have tribulation, be of good cheer I have overcome the world." I'll leave with this quote, "The living Jesus is a problem in our religious institutions. Yes. Because if you are having a funeral, a nice funeral, and the dead person starts to move, there goes the funeral! And, dear brothers and sisters, Jesus is moving!" Juan Carlos Ortiz

John

(Message edited by john r. jones on August 12, 2006)

[40days40years]

thanks John you were doing so well with advice till you mentioned JOC. Anyway that was great thanks I have to go now and catch 3 1/2 hours sleep for my morning shift.

That is good John, your talking nice to him and thinking of the planer, you got a little maranatha left in you, gotta go for now. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[40days40years]

I meant JCO

[john_r_jones]

I suppose I'm being ecumenical with the Ortiz quote?

Have a great day 40!
John

[40days40years]

JCO is ecumenical as as a planer on a log I guess but the planer is smoother LOL, great day to you to.-- I'll be back soon, old men don't sleep very long.

[philiprosenthal]

To respond to the issue above, I am not seeking to judge those who have sinned sexually in the past and properly repented of that. What I said on the thread under teachings in 'adulterers in ministry' is that:
i. those who commit such serious sins while in ministry leadership must step down from leadership.
ii. those who unrepetantly continue in a seriously sinful lifestyle should be excommunicated - that includes homosexuals or fornicators or whatever.

To answer the question at the top, the special grace offered by Christ is not available to anyone on a 'name it and claim it basis'. True grace has to go with true repentance from sin. There will be a bit of a debate between Calvinists and Arminians about which comes first, but all will agree you can't separate the two. The first word of the gospel is 'repent' i.e. turn from sin. The gospel is not available to those who don't do that. This is true both as a once off experience of salvation and also with the ongoing process of sanctification, where we need to regularly repent of our sins to make right with God. Grace is available, not automatically, but through the cross of Jesus Christ. i.e. You can't just keep sinning and think you will somehow get to heaven. One needs to identify with Jesus in his death in multiple ways such as by repenting of sin; by dying to sin and self; by sharing his pain in turning away from sin; by humbling ourselves before God; by believing in the power of his death in our lives to put to death our sinful nature (counting ourselves dead to sin). We must also identify with him in his resurrection by offering the parts of our bodies (particularly those finding it difficult to control) as slaves to righteousness. In the process of doing this, then God does a miracle in us - which may be called 'grace'.

Some Christians completely misunderstand grace and just think it means that God is easy on sin. Quite the opposite, it is something made available through a specific process of identification with Jesus death and resurrection as described in Romans chapter 6.

[john_r_jones]

Jesus touched the leper he broke the rules and held the person in more regard than the rules. Lepers in Jesus day were required to shout "unclean" as they walked the streets. Jesus had a way of healing those outcasts of the religious system and bringing them into the sheepfold of His presence.

Forgiveness precedes repentance; we repent because we are forgiven. Jesus on numerous occasions forgave people's sins the woman at the well went through her town proclaiming that she had met a man who told her everything she'd done. No shame in her past or her present just the miracle of forgiveness and healing of her being.

If you are sanctified through your own efforts to be holy then it's not grace but legalism. If you desire to live in that I shant seek to dissuade you. As Robert Capon writes in Kingdom, Grace, Judgment, "Some have been able to be won over from legalism possibly by our winsomeness..."

John

[formermaranathapastor]

http://www.whosoever.org/bible/

At the above link you will find concise and excellent treatment of the few scriptures that fundamentalists use to condemn gays. At the very least, I think we can say that "opinions and interpretations vary".

My own opinion is that promiscuity, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is unwise and harmful to our spirits. I believe monogamy (or marriage) is the way the divine can best dwell in and through us.

This monogamy can be with two people of the same sex or opposite sex. When spirits (or souls)unite
there is no gender which rules any morality. In heaven there will be no gender, God represents all genders, not just male, and it says in Galatians that there "is neither ......male nor female, we are all one in God."

To say there is sin attached to the uniting of genitalia which appears the same, disregards the uniting of the 2 people in love, commitment, fidelity, honesty and trust.

Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is within, and is found by grace, not by a set of rules and regulations.

[john_r_jones]

I was strolling this morning, if you don't stroll, you'll roll. And I was thinking about our conversation here and how I've wound up in this place.

On another part of the threads here I enumerated some of my sins and weaknesses which I'll spare you of today. I'm not proud of them, I'm not ashamed of them either, and that’s a part of who I is. Brennen Manning writes about our real selves and our imposter selves in his book <u>Abba's Child</u>. I had about twenty years invested in my imposter self and the Christian I wanted to be and thought others would think I needed to be but not who I was. The who of me was lurking in shame beneath the covers, behind a facade and when tinkered with the depleted uranium armor of opacity a high-tech deflection mechanism took off in high gear.

I remember being in my room ashamed and fearful on the night after I'd been asked to leave the church in Los Angeles. I also remember hearing the Father's voice very clearly and distinctly, "I've done you a great favor tonight. I told you to leave this ministry several years ago and you didn't out of fear. What you feared has come to be-fear not I'm here with you." I was stunned and in shock for the next few days as I had to find a place to live and other things in a big city-yet I had a peace that only comes from something outside me. The important thing here though is that God had cracked my facade, He'd allowed this to happen it was a place of repentance; a repentance though not so much for what I was busted for, but of not trusting God.

I see the postings of others and the other day I spoke of legalism and that the way of grace is trust not rules. I am pretty flat out blunt about that because I'd heard hints to that effect for years but didn't heed them. What I discovered in the last 15 years is the astonishing truth of Jesus' desire to have a relationship with us and make known the Father. So I've decided, as the song says, to follow Jesus-no turning back, no self reliance, to amend that not as much self reliance. Jesus has accepted my selves the imposter and the real, He's called the whole of me to take up my cross, as I've said before my struggles, weaknesses, sins, and failures and follow Him.

John

[matt_hatter]

John, your transparancy has been instrumental in helping me come to some major conclusions in my own life, especially dealing with honesty in my soul. Thank you for your writings and giving me the courage to do the same.

[miltietoast]

I asked a gay friend who claims to be a Christian if he was saving himself for marriage? He looked at me blankly.It is about sexual purity. Why do gays think they get a pass? Also homosexuality is mentioned in conjunction with other sins the church accepts as acceptable.The issue to me is repentance and an effort to walk in repentance.A murderer who keeps murdering,a thief who keeps stealing,a homosexual that keeps homosexualing?

[john_r_jones]

Complex Ethics the front lines of usssins and them.

One of the most striking experiences in my life which may annoy you or bore you to tears was to see folks horribly misshapen emotionally and otherwise healed. Abuse so horrific that when I described it to a detective with a state law enforcement agency he shuddered, handed me his card and asked to be excused. The person abused in this case was healed and restored to a somewhat normal life. I remember seeing her (I was ethically bound not to approach or even acknowledge that we were acquainted) at the book counter of a friend's church doing well, freed from a living nightmarish hell.

Flannerey O'Connor writes of a bigoted woman who is transported to the portals of Heaven and there is enabled to see a vast stream of folk she deemed unacceptable entering heaven and named them off in astonishment. "Even those?" she asked.

Discernment and love are a requirement for us as believers to operate in an environment of healing and restoration. I say discernment because I have needed to see the Lord Jesus at work in lives I'd written off as irredeemable.

I was once politely informed (within the last ten years here in Baton Rouge) by a church deacon as to the reason blacks were sub human and not allowed in their congregation. They were escorted from the services until a few years ago. Other churches would ask anyone who visited without a coat and tie or appropriate hair length-short, to step into the vestibule where a coat and tie would be made available and the hair would be excused this time. (Or the deacons would be pleased to offer a quick trim of the offending and ungodly long hair.)

I say complex ethics because we embrace the acceptable sinner and ostracize the other, or place labels and degrees of sin as a means of living with ourselves-and without others.

John

[freedom43]

miltietoast: I asked a gay friend who claims to be a Christian if he was saving himself for marriage? He looked at me blankly.It is about sexual purity.

Me: what if he would have said "yes." What would your response have been then? Did you mean him "marrying" a man or woman? Do you really think a monogamous, same-sex (consenting adult) relationship can be compared to murder and stealing? If so, no wonder so many gays run from anything called Christian.

[lablady2]

The worst sins are always the ones that we don't commonly do ourselves: abortion, homosexuality, etc. As I recall, gluttony and gossiping were put in the same sin set, but very few get so passionate about those sins.

As for me, I do good to keep myself upright. My job, as I see it, is to help others in any way possible, to make life a little easier for someone. I'm over the whole sin/judgment thing; God sees the individual's heart and he can deal with that stuff.

[miltietoast]

Thanks for the help lablady.Nice to know a friend packing a pair of 38 longs when you get in a fight. You got my point.It went over freedoms head. I will aim lower.



9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
OK murderer was not in there.Several points I was trying to make
1.the homosexual act is immoral period.(sorry freedom )whether monogamous or not but most homosexuals"christians" practice homosexual acts and think it is OK. No more OK than heterosexuals fooling around before marriage. Hence the tongue in cheek question are you saving yourself for marriage(which they are not and can not)
2. The list of non inheriters is broader than homosexuals,sexually immoral,fornicators,adulterers ,thieves,greedy ,slanderers,gluttons are included. In America that represents about 85% of the church(my unoffical guess ,propably too low)
3. Picking on the homosexual to the exclusion of the rest of the list is wrong. They should however all be picked on because we were supposedly washed and sanctified.Many of us were and still are in the pre washed and sanctified state.
Finally,freedom yes a monogamous homosexual is compared to stealing(not murder in this verse)Let the fat drunk adulterers run with them also. Freedom if I have a monogamous relationship with my cow would that be OK. Be careful how you answer because you could cause my cow to stampede and lablady will have to put her(at least I do it with a heifer and not a bull) down with her 38's.

[freedom43]

miltietoast: I will aim lower. Freedom if I have a monogamous relationship with my cow would that be OK.

Me: i think i understood you loud and clear. you didn't have to make yourself any lower. i think you were being disingenous to your gay Christian friend. on the cow, well, i haven't done a word study on man-cow sex, but i don't recall seeing anything about it in the New Testament. i imagine we could put it under sexual impurity and call it a day. but, i leave that between you and God. i would find it disgusting, but i wouldn't try to use scripture to condemn you or to justify my views.

[miltietoast]

freedom I was not being disingenous to my gay friend. He claims to be a Christian. He is single and he is sleeping around with gay men. I do not see any difference between that and premarital sex. He would probably say a Christian should not have premarital sex but homosexual sex is ok1. because he was born that way or2. it is not his fault. He got my point.
Freedom what if I had a monogamous relationship with my mistress or second wife?
freedom said--i wouldn't try to use scripture to condemn you or to justify my views.
me-I feel the scriptures speak clearly. Actually too clearly, I would like to fix them. Mark Twain said,"It is not what I don't understand in the bible that gives me trouble but what I do understand that gives me trouble"

[lablady2]

"man-cow sex..." Kinda testy there.

Wow, and I thought some of my posts were inappropriate. Sunk lower than me in no time flat. Methinks freedom might have a couple of things to share on the "Secret Sins" thread.

High five, Miltiferous

[miltietoast]

sorry lablady but freedom "justifying" homosexualty if it is monogamous got me to thinking of other monogamous relationships and if they would be justified adn sanctified like the undefiled marriage bed. But officer the 15 year old girl and I were not only consenual but also monogamous it must be ok. I have one phone call.Ring ring freedom is that you? Could you straighten this officer out? sheesh

[lablady2]

miltie: You didn't offend me. I'm almost 99.9% unoffendable. Just surprised that Freedom got there so quick.

[john_r_jones]

I would prefer honesty to papering over our differences or disparaging someone for being different from me in opinion. If our discourse is unsettling I apologize for my part; but I prefer this to having to scurry about in the shadows because I'm not holding a popular or correct position on something. The essence of our forum is the freedom to express and so we have.
John

[john_r_jones]

I guess my reputation was shot long ago so I’ll risk damnation if that's what it takes to reach out to love folks wounded on the side of the road of life.

I saw the parable of the Good Samaritan as something I could relate to in life being considered a loser in Maranatha etc. I was hired to run a radio station that no one listened to and was told I couldn't hurt it so there I was. After our ratings jump all of a sudden the programs I did on healing folks and restoration became a concern of our GM a Christian. Those "people" on my show on Fridays, I just chuckled and said "I thought we didn't matter and I couldn't hurt the station?" I basically put it to them that the "people" stay or I go because to not care about people who are quote losers is foreign to me since I are one.

So if I'm guilty of not inheriting the kingdom so be it I'll burn knowing I sought to reach out to others anyway.
John

[john_r_jones]

The idea of grace to me is to speak to the relationship that I think The Father desires to have with us, for some that is more easily attained than others. I commend you Miltie on raising a family and being passionately in love with Mrs. Toast and being an example of Christain charecter and conviction. I'm sure that strength kept you from some of the stuff Maranatha was peddling. Our side street in paradise matter of personal conduct is a hot button issue no doubt for many. I've sought to be agreeable in dealing with a disagreeable topic, sin.

Thanks,
John

[john_r_jones]

To Quote:
"St. Thomas, whose argument is insistent that the poet's, the artist's, responsibility is to the good of the thing being made, not with the correction of appetites in his audience." From an interview with Walker Percy. Were we to engage in the changing of one another's appetites on some subject or another we'd have the classic religious battle over disparate dogma. What I propose is the realization that paradoxes exist in life. Healthy nuclear families-are they Christocentric, if so do they give the community the benefit of their strength or the benefit of their judgment, or both.

For example we have the classic liberal-ists paradox of endorsing abortion or euthanasia as a quality of life issue and in so doing extinguishing life. The problem of the Weimar Republic so liberal it exterminated itself to the brink of extinction for the pursuit of an ideal human the Aryan. There is no hope of a good outcome for a society that doesn't recognize paradox according to authors O'Conner or Sayers. O'Conner's Mrs. Turpin has an epiphany in death that reveals the truth of her spare existence and that for some the difficult life isn't one of their choosing but of being found by that difficulty. There are counter currents and varying themes at work at once in life as in a great symphony. I remember in school playing the 1812 Overture with its many currents of theme and melody line and dissonance that somehow captures the spectacle of the battlefield. This punctuated by the whumps of the cannon written in the score in some performances firearms discharged into water barrels.

To conclude for me the scriptural prescriptive "The strong shall bear the burdens of the weak" is more than toleration or restrained contempt. It is an active pursuit of those who we are called to seek and save, and elsewhere we are seen in this same prescriptive to have done to Jesus what we did to those in prison etc. "to the least of these...you have done to me"-Jesus.

John


(Message edited by john r. jones on August 16, 2006)

[philiprosenthal]

I clarify what I say above is not salvation by our own efforts. It is the application of the cross to our lives. That is our union with Jesus in his death and resurrection. It is not passivity. It is not doing absolutely nothing. It is doing things through him, in believing in his death and resurrection and putting to death our sinful nature and offering the parts of our bodies to him; giving thanks to him for what he does etc. That is not just going on sinning. It is the way out that he offers. It is not just being passive. It is connecting with him in what he did on the cross.

[speakword2004]

Miltie, I read the cow thing and didn't get "<font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font>" either. Must be the part in me that has a bell on.

[freedom43]

Sorry to have posted such a provocative response and then gone off-line. I have a little one (6 months) in the house and had to tend to her and get some sleep. I used the man-cow reference because there was a word starting with B that FactNet would not let me post.

I asked miltietoast questions about his conversation with his gay Christian friend to try to get an understanding of his perspective. Let’s be clear, miltietoast is the one who leapt to comparing sex with a cow to homosexuality, not me. That was after he compared homosexuals to murderers and thieves. (Interesting aside: homosexuality is not in the 10 commandments but murder and stealing are. And, Jesus never mentioned it.) miltietoast has since compared it to adultery, polygamy and sex with underage youths. I find all of this highly offensive and off-putting, and it frankly makes me want to run screaming from this board and the narrow-minded ones who post here.

No, lablady, I don’t have anything more to post on secret sins. I am openly gay –and I am a Christian. But, it seems like a lot of folks here don’t think that’s possible. Besides a few whom I think have dealt with this issue personally, there are very few here who seem to have “walked a mile in my shoes” but are ready to tell me that I have two choices in life in order to be a Christian: live celibate forever and never have a significant personal relationship in my life or try to become an “ex-gay” and marry someone who I am not nor ever will be attracted to – physically or emotionally. That’s it. I wish folks would try it themselves and see how it works for them. Miltitoast seems happily married, to someone he is attracted to (I hope) – but his interpretation of scripture denies that to his gay friend.

I tried the ex gay route in Maranatha – and it doesn’t work. Let’s face it, with the “dating revelation,” it was a very safe place for someone trying to avoid their sexuality. And, Bob W. and company loved to brag from the pulpit that they had converted homosexuals to Christ. On the one hand, they said all sin was the same, but that one was always singled out as especially bad. For years, I did all the right things and never “stumbled” in that regard. I had the devil cast out of me, prayed, fasted, studied the Word, cried and begged God to change me and, after close to 15 years of celibacy and denial, it was still there. (Most ex gays I know, still “struggle with it.”) My faith and my self esteem were shipwrecked in the process because of feeling condemnation for something that I could not change about myself. So, I began the difficult journey of self acceptance and trying to reconcile my faith and my orientation. It hasn’t been an easy process.

I think I am beyond the point where I need to listen repeatedly to people judge me, tell me I cannot be a Christian or have a relationship with God and compare my loving relationship with my partner (united in a ceremony before God, family and friends in the United Church of Christ) to the offensive things I read on these boards.

I started posting here because of my common Maranatha experience, and I thought I might find some healing here. But so far, I am not feeling the love. In some cases, it seems the apple has not fallen far from the tree. Perhaps my family should just move to Canada.

[speakword2004]

http://forums.strang.com/viewtopic.php?t=7809&amp;postdays=0&amp;postorder=asc&amp;star t=0

Has 33 pages of debate whether a person can be a Christian and a homosexual.

My take is that a Christian can be a practising homosexual, but they are in sin and need to repent of that sin. This will have to happen sooner than later as I believe that the Holy Spirit will convict a person of their sin. A homosexual is still deserving of love and also most of the human rights we are all worthy of.

Freedom43 is still loved by Jesus and I believe Freedom43's statement that a relationship with Him still exists. Jesus is not a God who will abandon or forsake us. Yes, God disciplines those He loves and how and when He chooses to do this is His business.

At the same time I believe that a gay union is a moral compromise and attempted trade-off. Just because you are faithful and true to that relationship does not make it a God-ordained one. The Bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin and practising it is sinful and it will result in His judgement.

[formermaranathapastor]

Well. I know many gay Christians and most of them are in monogamous relationships which range from 1 year to 35 years. I think a committed gay relationship is much different from promiscuity.

Establishing immorality based upon genitalia is very strange. Person to person, the love, commitment and fidelity between them, taht seems to be the basis for marriage, not the shape of genitalia.

[freedom43]

formermaranathapastor: Person to person, the love, commitment and fidelity between them, taht seems to be the basis for marriage...

me: i appreciate your voice of reason and postings of walking in love. are you still a pastor? if so, i wanna go to your church!

[philiprosenthal]

Freedom writes : "I think I am beyond the point where I need to listen repeatedly to people judge me, tell me I cannot be a Christian or have a relationship with God and compare my loving relationship with my partner (united in a ceremony before God, family and friends in the United Church of Christ) to the offensive things I read on these boards."

GAL 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature* will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

1CO 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

The above scriptures (amongst many others) show that you cannot have a homosexual sexual relationship and go to heaven. You must chose Jesus or your sex partner. You can't have both. This is not being unloving. This is the truth of the scripture. I advise you to chose Jesus and avoid hell fire. That is not being unloving, that is being loving by trying to help you avoid eternal suffering. Maybe breaking up with your partner will be painful, but eternity in the wrong in the wrong place will be more so.

Here is a web site to get help:
http://www.exodus-international.org/

[formermaranathapastor]

Freedom- In time, after leaving MCM, I came to realize I was just as flawed or more so than any other human being, and that in view of that, I needed to stop judging various groups of people, and start loving them. The act of loving changed my life, and led me on a path of self-discovering my divinity as well as my humanness.
Jesus was right. The act of loving others (and self)is the greatest thing in all the World. It is transformative on a creation scale.
No, I am not a pastor. I am a member of several home groups which have all participants as the leaders. I guess since MCM I have not been much of a traditional church person.

But, thanks for the kind words!

[philiprosenthal]

Formermaranthapastor

I don't think it is strange to 'establish sexual relationship on the basis of the shape of genetilia. '. We have a creator. He designed us for a purpose. It is obvious from nature that the male and female organs were designed for eachother. The rectum on the other hand tends to get damaged by misuse for sexual purposes, because its lining is much thinner as it was not designed for sex. Thus use of the anus for sex is a misuse of God's design for sex. That is clear from the bible, but it is also clear from nature. The two fit together, because all truth is united under God who is the author of both scripture and nature.

[freedom43]

Thanks, Philiprosenthal, for the verses. That only makes about the one millionth time I have read them and heard them quoted as to why I can’t be a Christian. As you know, there are entire books written about those verses and others used to condemn homosexuals and differing interpretations and a raging debate about what they mean or don’t mean for today’s church. You and I will likely continue to interpret scripture differently.

There are also books written about ex-gay ministries like Exodus and how they don’t work for many people. Even the married, ex gay poster child, John Paulk, was caught in a gay bar a few years back. And, I have it from a reliable source that he was doing more than stopping to use the restroom as was reported in the news. A very sad story.

I understand that some people’s lives are based on your interpretation of those scriptures, and that they will never be able to accept a differing view/interpretation. To do so, would cause their entire world/world view to crumble. I used to feel that way. I thought that there was no excuse for homosexual behavior and that if I could overcome it, anyone could. But, I never really overcame it because my heart did not change --despite years and years or trying. Maybe I am taking a very big risk (eternity) by not living a celibate life on this earth. Trust me, I have thought about it. The bottom line for me came down to not being able to accept that Christ’s dying was not enough (by grace you are saved through faith) and that God would condemn me solely for who I love. If that is the case, then perhaps we do not worship the same God or I do not know Him. (You would say I don't.)

I hope you are able to continue in God's blessing and living in a way that works for you.

Oy -- just noticed your post on organs. not a great argument. i know same-sex couples (male and female) who do not use the practices you describe at all --and there are straight couples who do. there are examples of same-sex relations in the animal kingdom. and, as far as pro-creation only sex, that argument disallows older couples and infertile couples from marital relations.

[freedom43]

philip -- one other thing -- on leaving my partner. not gonna happen. i cried the first time i held her hand in a church service-- at a church that did not condemn us or our relationship. i pray more with her than i did in the 8 years before i met her. for our "pre-marital" counseling, we each independently took a test with our minister. we apparently ranked higher on spiritual compatibility than any other couple the minister had counseled, gay or straight. after six years together and a baby, i have no intention of leaving her. i am the primary bread winner in our household. it would be irresponsible to leave her and the child we brought into this world together.

[lablady2]

I agree with former maranatha pastor. I'm not so perfect that I need to spend my time judging others. God is so much more capable. I, however, am capable of loving and helping.

To me, what you do in the privacy of your own home (between consenting adults) is your own business.

[formermaranathapastor]

Freedom- Thanks so much for honestly sharing your life with us. I am so happy that you and your partner are happy and committed and have a child together.

In working with many gay, lesbian and transgendered folk for years, the main thing they have to overcome is the shame society wishes them to have for being who they are, and the guilt the Church wishes to heap upon them for being who they are.
Once the shame and guilt are gone, there is such a feeling of freedom, and a relationship with God becomes a close one. No more fear, just freedom.

That it what I used to feel all the time in MCM: fear.

[freedom43]

lablady: I really apreciate you expressing your non-judgmental and loving attitude.

I apologize if my comments last night offended you or dragged the conversation into the gutter. I am generally someone who tries to keep it clean -- but this hits very close to home, and I admit I have lots of baggage and sometimes let my buttons get pushed too easily.

formermaranathapastor: I appreciate your latest comments as well. I think you have hit on a critical issue that I still have not fully dealt with in my life.

I think we all probably felt fear in Maranatha, but I have to say that I think "inadequacy" was foremost for me, rather than fear. Whatever we did, it was never enough.

[philiprosenthal]

FormerMaranthaPastor

You are deceiving Freedom43 and other people who read this board. The interpretation of grace you teach is a lie. Some people may spend eternity burning in hell because of such a deceitful interpretation of grace. Be careful, for God will one day judge you for what you say.

JUDE 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

JUDE 1:4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about* long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

I am happy you are a 'former' pastor. You don't respect the scripture enough to be a pastor.

[lablady2]

Oh, Philip. It wouldn't be the first time I've been told that I'm wrong and I'm going to hell. A few MCM people told me that a few years ago and it seems they've had a change of heart.

It is not scripturally wrong to say that I, a human, will trust God, who is God, to judge humans. I'll stand by that statement.

[freedom43]

Philip: Been reading some of the verses you posted. I continued past 1 Cor 6 to chapter 7: “Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman.” There you have it: Paul wants everyone to be unmarried and celibate. Oh, but wait, he writes more: “But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.”

So, he makes a concession. Because of the temptation to fornicate (immoralities), it’s okay for folks to get married. So, Paul says that celibacy is what is best, but it’s too hard and so, let them get married. Temptation is just too great.

“Homosexuality” (I'm not talking about temple prostitutes, etc.) as we know it today did not exist until the late 19th century. If it existed in the first century, perhaps Paul would have penned a concession for gays too, and we would not be having this conversation.

----------------

“Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.”

"Pray, then, in this way ‘Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’

For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

[miltietoast]

the ghost in the machine has kept me offline today besides installing a pool. Freedom did not know you were a homosexual.So the bible says in Romans that God gave them (who?) up unto vile affections;for even women did change the natural use into that which is agaisnt nature.I would have to lie against the truth,suppress the truth in unrighteousness, or profess to be wise to change that staement. So you are a homosexual and vile, and because I do not cotrol my appetite or my eyes I am a glutton and an adulterer(eyes only)So what can we do? Form a new church with our own ideas, tear some pages out, dissmiss Paul as homophobe women hater?I am in the same boat as you is the point I am trying to make,and the real church will challenge your and my behaviour as displeasing to the One we say we love.The false church will make excuses ignore, condone,make up interpretations to "justify" their actions and will reap the fruit of their actions which will be no everlasting fruit. I know what my wifes preferences are and when I ignore them for my own selfish desires my "I love yous" are hollow.We are a people whose lips bless the Lord but are hearts are evidently set on our own desires

[miltietoast]

Freedom--I am not judging you or me, unfortunately in an attempt to be intellectually honest, I believe the word of God judges me. Actually it persecutes me. I am not so sure that the persecution mentioned in the parable of the seeds is the Word, not necessarily people or at least persecution from obeying the word. So where does God's grace fit in, I do not know.I know I am displeaseing to Him by my actions.I will not trample His word to make an exception for me. I have no other place to go.I can only trust His ways.

[freedom43]

miltietoast: I appreciate your honesty. It seems you and others still have at least one thing in common with Maranatha. Anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible is wrong or a "false church." I remember oh so well how Maranatha mocked other denominations and dismissed them as not "real Christians." So, you believe certain churches that accept gays -- Episcopal, United Church of Christ, Methodist, Presbyterian -- also "trample His word" to make exceptions. It must be so nice to have all the answers and know God's will for all people.

[formermaranathapastor]

Miltie- What you can do is rest from your struggles against gluttony and lust. The greatest thing you can do in life is to love your God and love your family, your neighbor, love the beggar at the corner Walgreens, and love yourself.
Jesus said if you do that then everything else will fall in line.

[freedom43]

Was it the "false church's" interpretation of scripture that people used to justify slavery and anti-miscegenation laws in America or was that the "real church?"

[lablady2]

I'm not trying to be funny or irreverant here, but I sometimes wonder what the world would be like if every overweight person or every person who ever gossiped was held to the exact same standard as the one who commits homosexual sin. As I read new testament scripture, all are sinners, one no worse than the other.

Just think. If we applied that standard, we might be living in a world of really slim people who minded their own business.

I have to confess, the weight/gluttony issue is a struggle for me. I keep at it, I try, but will I ever overcome? Does God truly only love the overcomers? Will God love me any less if I don't lose the 20 pounds?

I don't pretend to know the answers to the questions. I'm just putting it out there for consideration.

Personally, I know what I gotta do.

[formermaranathapastor]

Will God love me any less if I don't lose the 20 pounds?

While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

God just loves, He does not love more or less.

As I have said, the danger to the Christian is not the sin, it is the guilt and shame which keeps us from loving others. That is the real thing to battle.

[freedom43]

I'm right there with you lablady. I watched Super Size Me and it made me hungry for McDonalds. ; ) Seriously, having my thyroid levels checked helped too. Turns out, I needed medicine to get me on the right track. But, I still need to go to the gym and eat more healthy. Society puts a lot of pressure (and guilt and shame) on women who are not rail thin.

[miltietoast]

freedom said-- It must be so nice to have all the answers and know God's will for all people.
me- from the time I started following the Lord around 20 til about 48 I had all the answers which explains what attracted me to maranatha. I now have no answers and some of my theology has changed 180 degrees. I can not afford to change again or I will be back where I started. Then I will really need healing.We are a mess.we all must make decisions ultimately on how we should live.For me the gospel Jesus preached and what I see preached today bare no resemblance.Jesus's gospel bares witness in my spirit but my soul and flesh rejects it and I sadly walk away like the rich young ruler because I refuse to die to myself.I love myself more than anybody regardless of sexual orientation. The gospel preached in America accomodates my flesh and soul and my flesh and soul bares witness. I could thrive in it because I can do my own thing and dress it up in church clothes.
Freedom yes it was the false church that justified slavery.Is that your interpretation? What is antimiscegenation? Not in my cheap old dictionary. Must be a newer word.

[miltietoast]

lablady said I'm not trying to be funny or irreverant here, but I sometimes wonder what the world would be like if every overweight person or every person who ever gossiped was held to the exact same standard as the one who commits homosexual sin.
As usual lab we are on the same page you make the point better than I.These habits are ones that God does not condone. So when we justify these behaviours as acceptable and pleasing to God then I think we are deceived and lie against the truth. I still have the wrong cravins. Let 's take a vote, people who habitually fornicate,are idolators,commit adultery,are homosexual,abuse themselves,are thieves, covetous,drunkards,revilers,extortioners., are these habits good or bad. what say ye?

[lablady2]

I think we are in the same chapter if not on the same page.

Another question, then: Why is it that you most often hear religious people attack homosexuals/homosexuality as opposed to gossip/overeater.?

The emphasis remains on the sins that the majority of us don't commit. Can you imagine a church in which the pastor preached every Sunday about weight or gossiping, about how perverse those sins are, about how they are destroying our nation? My guess is that attendance would drop drastically, followed by the almighty $$$. Won't happen. It's safe for all concerned if the focus is kept on the really bad sins. The sad part thing about that is that it keeps all the negative focus on the individuals who happen to practice "the really bad sin", allowing everyone else to think that they are AOK and giving them a convenient scapegoat.

I'm just saying that fair is fair. Stop giving one or two sins all the airtime.

[miltietoast]

preach on labby
I will drink to that labby and chase it with some ribs. Maybe we can all compare our interpretations in hell.By the way lablady if you get control over that gluttony you will lose the handle on those 38's. More like 22 varmint rifle.Decisions decisions. Don't know if you will end up with22shorts or longs . What a cruel God we serve LOL

[lablady2]

miltie: you ain't right. Which is why we love you.

I'm through a-preachin'. Just hate to see a few take a hit for the many.

Perhaps a handle on the 38s is just what I need. Something retractable, perhaps. Where's Ron Popeil when you need him?

I'd consider surgery but that nursing background makes me pretty hesitant. I don't wanna look like some Dali dreamed up.

Regarding hell: I made up my mind a long time ago that if 50% of the people who said they were going to heaven were actually going, hell might be the better option.

Grace ruined me for hell; I have no fear.

[miltietoast]

you sound like mattie
I think i will convert to Judiaism.At least I would be one of Gods chosen clackerholes. Done figured you out, trying to sneak in to heaven as a relative.
Grace ruined me for hell; I have no fear.
I like it

[john_r_jones]

What of the laundry list of sins that are enumerated above, I've been guilty of most if not all of them at some time or another I found I had failed in my attempts to be good enough to be a Christian.

I remember coming to a place in all of this about five years ago in the early spring where I met Jesus. I was sitting out in my shop at home reading a book that held my attention so that I couldn't stop. (I've written this before so scroll past if its tedious reading, or if it's tedious period) I'd come to the end, my abilities to crawl across the floor much less walk or run victoriously as a Christian were at a low ebb. I made a lifelong friend that day-Jesus. It wasn't the perfection of performance He was after, the completeness of follow through He sought, and it wasn't commitment of any great dimension He required. He sought only me, aghast I recoiled. No! You can't have me I'm not finished yet, I'm not presentable I sin; I reek of insecurity, I wallow in envy, lust and self-pity.

I see in my mind's eye the shrugged shoulders, "So?" Though it wasn't a conversation per se it was a commission posed as a question, "Do you love me? John Jones do you love me?" This time I shrugged, "Of course." Well basically the same thing happened to me that happened to the guys on the Tiberian seashore "Feed my lambs" was the response and I came to realize this: the "As you do this unto the least if these you do it unto me" which Jesus commissioned us to do and in so doing we were ministering to Him, one of the least I needed to love was me. As Anthony DeMello said and I wholeheartedly agree, "I'm thankful for my sin, it brought me to Jesus."

I found myself talking to folks about Jesus in stores or offices or where ever not as a fanatic or Jesus Freak as my high school friends called me after my Maranatha experience started, but because He's real in my life. I can laugh at myself and not take myself too seriously, yet I still catch a glimpse of that piercing gaze Jesus has when He looks my way, He seriously chose me as His disciple. He didn't settle for me, tolerate me, or look the other way while I snuck under the ropes He purposely chose the screwed-up underwhelming me to follow Him. When the going gets bad and He turns sometimes and asks, "You too, will you leave me too?" the quick reply is "Where in the hell else would I go? You're the one with the words of life!"

John

[lablady2]

Miltie: would it shock you if I said I wasn't so sure about my desire to reside in heaven either. I'm such a reprobate that the heaven/hell issue almost never enters my mind.

I figure if I do what I believe I'm supposed to do, that stuff takes care of itself. Either the ultimate in trust or the ultimate in stupidity. Doesn't matter; I'm prepared to accept my outcome.

[freedom43]

lablady &amp; john_r_jones -- appreciate your down to earth posts.

miltietoast -- thanks for your posts too. I especially appreciate you taking the time to explain where you are coming from and your humility in doing so. Antimiscegenation = laws against inter-racial marriage.

On slavery, I'm not sure about real or false churches, I just don't think it's of God to steal people's lives from them and force them into a life of servitude. (I understand slaves in the Bible were mostly repaying debts -- today we have credit cards!) I don't think what happened in America is in keeping with Jesus' command to "Do unto others" and "love your neighbor as yourself."

[miltietoast]

lablady said--Miltie: would it shock you if I said I wasn't so sure about my desire to reside in heaven either. I'm such a reprobate that the heaven/hell issue almost never enters my mind.
me---not in the least I used it only as a frame of reference I assume most people relate to. I try to follow Jesus because I am persuaded He is and He is right.Cutting a deal to escape hell was not my plan. Though He slay me yet will I serve Him.
Thanks jrj for perspective
Freedom I am amazed that the Jesus and the gospel did not try to abolish slavery. Matter of fact Jesus never tried to change anyone to abetter"social position" that I am aware of.I think there is something very important to learn about Jesus's priorities,mainly they are not the same as mine.Jesus does not seem concerned about my comfort or station in life,or long life for that matter.Just wants to have a relationship and have me respond.
Freedom quit using big words.Jesus is not in to nationalities or races.The New Testament appears a melting pot of races,nations,languages, a holy nation a royal priesthood a people for God's own possession... is anybody writing this down? oops my bad I think a guy named Peter talked about this

[freedom43]

miltietoast -- I agree Jesus reaches us where we are and "stuff" or the trappings of life are not important. There are no races in Christ.

But, are you saying that you think God/Jesus/the Bible would be neutral on America rounding up people and enslaving them? If so, I think Abe Lincoln would disagree. He seemed to think the Civil War was God's judgment on America for slavery.

"Fondly do we hope--fervently do we pray--that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn by the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said, 'The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.'"

[miltietoast]

freedom I am well aware of Lincolns statement and as an aside if he is correct what would the unrequited toil and judgement be for abortion(usually compared to slavery)
Good question freedom.I believe God is against slavery and there may be judgements against people or nations. My point is in the midst of the slavery Jesus reveals Himself to the slave and says follow Me. He offers no deals or freedom. He is evidently content with knowing a slave as a slave. Again I think I am smarter than Jesus on this one but I know He is just and true.

[freedom43]

miltietoast: Amen -- I agree about God meeting people where they are.

I think it would be very interesting to study more about how the gospel was used/played into the whole slave thing and frankly, the colonization of America. How we had to save the savages, etc. While there may have been folks who were truly a witness for Christ, it seems like others were opportunists who used the gospel for their own benefit. And, I've heard some say they used the Christian message of life ever after to keep slaves placated and in submission on the earth. It's all very fascinating, and I have to trust God to sort it all out and hope that the truth of the message was not lost.

[formermaranathapastor]

This thread has taken a turn toward GRACE. Can you feel it?
Grace: the thing that you cannot earn or deserve which makes you at one with God!
In the shadow of God's Grace, the false standard of rules and regulations does not exist.

[john_r_jones]

There's a new hutchism (http://johnshutch.blogspot.com/) iffin yer interested.

John aka Blogga the Hutch

[miltietoast]

freedom I used to be an American history junkie(I have hundreds of books) esp American Christian history. Peter Marshall(the Light and the Glory) put a bug in me in Maranatha.Part of my 180 degree turn involves my interpretation of our "Christian" heritage.A lot of people used the Bible to justify a lot of things.I was in Washington DC years ago with family doing the tour.It dawned on me that we are a very violent nation. Also that if apostle Paul was walking through Washington and you told him this was the capital of aChristian nation,I believe he would laugh and say looks like Rome to me.

[40days40years]

I don't know Miltie. God had what 200 years to create a nation to stop Hitler and Stalin? They better be violent to stop guys like that. Think what would have happened if they were not so good at violence? Food for thought. Feel sorry for the Indians but they were violent to, that and gold is why the spanish headed south instead of fighting it out in the north. The Iraquio or whatever use to eat missionaries.

[john_r_jones]

Several months ago I began on a line of thought and here I am again talking about the prodigal son.

As he came home through the last dusty miles, through fields he'd grown up roaming through past places he's played and then worked, the last person he expected to see was his father. As he'd worked it out in his mind; ease into the shed where the laborers hung out and see if there was any work to do and maybe, just maybe a snack or morsel of food. Just something to tide him over, get through the day without collapsing he thought. He'd sleep in the barns, or under some cover on the edge of the property, just make it through today. As he trudged through the field he was startled he was concentrating on the ground, looking down ashamed, broken. He glimpsed the hem of a robe that was familiar and the flash of a sandal and then he was swept up in a bear hug and couldn't tell at first if it was affection or anger it was so passionate. For an instant he thought, "Well dad has come out to throw me off the property before anyone knows I'm here. He's got me strength wise I'm beat, I won't fight it. But what's this" he thinks, "the tears, kisses, touseled hair, the robe is on me now, what gives the ole man's slipping, I've driven him mad with grief. Now he's glad to see me, I who wished him dead, I who rejected him and all he stood for, he's glad to see me, he's glad to see me", the boy thought over and over.

John

[miltietoast]

40/40 I agree with your analogy as being conventional Christian wisdom.
Here is my nagging question
What if Hitler had overtaken the world?How would that have affected the building of God's kingdom?
Do not misunderstand,I do not like the possible answer to that question(which is possibly that it would not hinder His kingdom at all and maybe would increase it)
God used bad judgement in my soulish wisdom in His timing and location choice to birth His church.I would have carpet bombed,napalmed the area first. Then I would send troops to secure area.Then I would send my businesss buddies over to rebuild what we destroyed establish a democratic government and watch Christianity flourish.
To review ,It is in the realm of possibility to me that God is not as concerned about protecting my lifestyle,pensions ,health care plan, 1st and second home,vacation,4 cars,etc as I am.I say kill them all but I KNOW Jesus would not have lifted a finger of resistance.Evidently His weapons of warfare are mightier than any bomb we have managed to create for the advancing of His purposes. I am all for His purposes along as I can accomplish my purposes at the same time. Please do not get mad at me or try to hurt me for my words or I will call the police and throw your AxSxSxExS in jail!hehehe

[lablady2]

miltie: I would never get mad at you or hurt you for your words. I like and appreciate different views. Keeps the mind sharp and makes me think. I always enjoy reading what you have to say.

[john_r_jones]

Miltoidtoast,
I posted several months ago on the emergence of Nazi Germany from a Christian nation. Munich is German for monk, and is a city full of church spires and culture. Oberamagau is nearby and where the "Passion Play" is held. Hitler after viewing this performance wrote in his diary something to the effect that he was destined to deal with the Jewish problem. The "Final Solution" came in concentration camps such as Dachau twelve miles outside Munich.

In Russia during the Tsars reign Jews were kept in the "Pale" and denied many freedoms we have here. During the early Twentieth century these Jews began to migrate to the U.S. and were allowed only the ability to peddle from push carts again a form of the "Pale". Many of the department stores and clothing stores we southerners shop in today grew from those pushcart families, some smuggled out of Nazi Germany.

Phillip Yancey's <u>Finding God in Unexpected Places</u> might be good read for you. He speaks to the attempts in the past of seeking to Christianize a nation or society-prohibition for example that usually result in ensuing violence in their respective cultures. The oligarchy’s of the Medieval times as they were the seat of the corruption of buying indulgences and such gave way to the term Modern over a four or five hundred year period. In reading Brain McLaren's <u>Secret Kingdom</u> I found that the evil we see in society is the Father's way of allowing Satan to be drawn out into the light and be named, even religion has it's place in this naming of evil. Much evil has been committed in the name of religion, the prophets martyred, the Crucifixion of Christ, the slaughter of opponents between Calvinists and Arminists in Christendom after the Diet of Worms.

John

(Message edited by john r. jones on August 18, 2006)

[john_r_jones]

I guess I see the Father welcoming us prodigals all in our varying shapes, forms, and states of being and inviting us to a feast with Him. I am trying desperately to unlearn the rulebook so stamped in my head that rejects others for whatever reason. One of the truisms I've found in grace is that God is a dangerous god. You see an idol plays to our desires, our comforts, our ideals of what a god should be; we craft this god whether material or metaphysical and then camp out around it. One of the things I've noticed about God is that He cares too much for us to cater to us. Jesus when He stripped himself naked and began washing His disciple's feet it was no doubt disconcerting. Yet I'm sure there wasn't a whit of an air of superiority in Jesus' demeanor because on the other side of the coin if God is going to engage Himself with us He has to meet us where we are. The most effective metaphor of who God is was in this posture of a servant that Jesus took when He washed the men's feet he served. The reality of the fact that God the Father wanted a relationship with these individuals, He knew them well and desired to touch them-literally touch them through the hands of Jesus that day. Among that company of men were any number of personalities, agendas, betrayals even, yet the Father desired to touch all of them and in turn us.

Miltie related our Christian nation's capitol to that of Rome more than a spiritual utopia, probably so. Since our nation was founded on violence, land theft, opportunism and numerous broken treaties I would say the empire building Rome is a good metaphor. We still engage in self interest and baptize that as Christian which I think is most onerous to God-but He still embraces us. Though we sing God bless America and do it while blood is being spilled half a world away He still engages with us. What we have to see some day maybe is that He has come a long way in reaching out to us. That in the march of human history God has made himself vulnerable to us. He's even submitted Himself to our violent whims and allowed us to roughly handle Him in the form not only of Jesus but of others-prophets in the Old Testament and now in our midst those deemed less acceptable or weak. Theresa of Avila says she sees Jesus in the street people of Calcutta, the lepers and aids victims. Grace does funny things when it gets hold of us it stirs passions and awakens convictions and makes our sight keen. I remember seeing that as I first began to awaken from the slumber of legalism several years ago, I asked an older, wiser man, a Godly man about all of the stuff I was seeing in lives around me. His reply, "They're just people John, they're not here to live up to your ideals and platitudes, they're here to be loved in all of their humanity just as Jesus does."

This epiphany occurred during my tenure as a talk show host. I was the Republican fixture in Western Ky. and it was an interesting time. I would debate with someone about some political thing and then pray with them afterwards about a problem, or have them over for dinner or end up helping them with a problem. Sometimes they were serious problems, life and death problems, the rulebook flew out the window and my Republicanism had to take a back seat to my being a Christian. I didn't do this grudgingly either; I had found this Dangerous God and the freedom of being His kid, an agent of love and compassion in this world. The funny thing was in all of this was the discovery that I hadn't been made wrongly, or as an inferior knockoff of a perfect Christian. My weakness or whatever it was made me approachable, I could love people where they were as I was healed myself.

John

[flo1151]

john r,

Good for you. When I sat in a doctors office back in 1986 i believe getting ready to have my tubes tied I met a young girl obviously pregnant. I asked her about everything and found out she was unmarried and very stretched from having made the decision not to abort the baby. This one conversation forever changed the way I thought about women having to make the decision of a lifetime when they are usually pretty young. Our church took care of this girl and baby for about a year and a half until she moved back to her parents. I never will forget that as a turning point away from the nice tidy package of Maranatha.

[lablady2]

"the nice tidy package of Maranatha"

So well said, flo, and the nice, tidy package offered was the primary reason I was there.

Life was just so chaotic, so messy, and I wanted those absolutes, a world of blacks and whites. One of the hardest lessons I learned, post MCM, was that life IS just messy. My job is just to make it a little less so for everyone I meet. And that sums up my total theology. In Judaism, it is called Tikkun Olam - repairing the world.

(Message edited by lablady2 on August 19, 2006)

[nicknak]

I comented to my youngest daughter the other day that I used to view everything in black and white. There was little if any gray area. Life was compartmentalized. It was easy...

But, then I started to experience life's many ups and downs - death, divorce, starting life again as a single mother. All the things that you never imagine would ever happen to YOU.

Now, my view is that you have to walk a mile in someone's shoes. I have been judged wrongly so many times in my own life, that I just refuse to do that to someone else. As I tell people in my business, "It's life...it happens...then you go on."

Thank you, Lord, for your grace and lovingkindness..on me, chief of sinners.

[john_r_jones]

One of the funniest things that have occurred to me over the years and of late is the notion that any of us has that we somehow belong in church. That when we go to church on a Sunday or commit ourselves to ministry and proceed on in the notion that we can earn our keep in some way.

In Maranatha we taught that our gift made room for us. Yet the gospels give us an entirely different picture as related in the book by Michael Yaconelli <u>Dangerous Wonder</u>. He reminds us that church is a place of invitation and the host ain't as picky as we are about who comes. He tells us to go out into the streets and invite whoever is out there to come into the banquet hall. That being done the host is informed that there's still room so He bids us go out into the country side the lanes and byways and compel those folks as well, not sort out their desirability as guests but compel everyone you see. Nobody in this deal received an engraved invitation because we were on the divine social register.

I look at Paul's writings in this regard and I want to share my thoughts in light of the Gospel injunction to compel the masses. Basically I think Paul was addressing the Pagan ritual and the Jewish ritual in a similar manner. Those who practice ritual whether in temple prostitution and fornication and idolatry or those who prostitute themselves in a rigor of religious perfectionism both miss the point. It isn't ritual or personal effort that brings the kingdom of God nearer than it already is; it is at hand, now, where you are.

Because God doesn't want to be boxed-up like a commodity, nor obscured in dogma or misunderstood in pagan worship of His creation; He wants you and only you to be in a relationship with Him. Paul also writes about grace abounding where sin abounds and asks should we sin more that grace may abound all the more? No, he says, the grace of the Father is sufficient for you as was for Paul. Paul's thorn in the flesh, he desired to be delivered from it-don't we all. The Father's reply to Paul was the sufficiency of grace.

Grace isn't license, it is the whole thing not just a portal to something else, it's the whole deal. What happened to those who hung around Jesus, who spent time with Him? Well for the most part they failed Him, they gave in to fears and doubts and that was ok with Jesus, many are the times He told them "Fear not." Why would the Messiah say such things to His followers He was God in the flesh after all, if you can't be confident as God's pal then who can?

Jesus gave us something we've sought for as humans through the centuries with our tongues hanging out; He gave the Abba of God a name and a face. We just don't know if we can handle an Abba God. So how do we do this thing called church? Since none of us deserves to be here in any way we treat each other as God does I guess, we seek to love people and serve them and invite them into a relationship with the Father, failure and mistakes, sometimes big mistakes are a progression towards growth.

John

[matt_hatter]

tidy package..black and white....John, your gift, "Messy Spirituality" has truly revolutionized my life. I'm plugging my recent blog just to let some of you read a quote from it.

niknak, I commented recently that I have seen my life go from black and white, to gray, to full blown technicolor. Don't ask me to explain this, because I can't right now. It is something that is running so deep in my soul that it puts my heart in my throat at times. It is Him, all Him, that I do know.

Matt

[miltietoast]

jrj I continue to struggle to find the balance of the open banqueting table and the exclesia(sp) (called out ones)propbably will never figure it out.

[mdillon]

nicknak-you have to walk a mile in someone's shoes i.e. before judging them.

then they will be a mile away and barefoot

jonesy thanks for the meat this morning. too hot for Porch Church- need special offering for AC. had to move to indoor annex. miltie calls from his new pool to share testimony while frying bacon.

Elijah thought he was the only one, yet God had 7000(?) more just like him but they were not gathered at any convention under any banners. Cave Church---early precursor to Porch Church. God is not freaked by "where's all the holy people?" He knows who they is and they is everywhere, all over Babylon. some are evern in the steeplehouses. anytime we start to number the Remnant and put them all in the same clothes we mimmick the Nazi's. Let's face it, we were trying to build the master race in Maranatha and I am so glad I failed.

I will be leading a workshop for non-sharps at miltie's Oct. MLTS. need help with topic

dillyeaux

[miltietoast]

Topic"If all gluttonous preachers quit preaching would there be silence?" Fri Oct20 5:30(before the all you can eat banquet" By skinny mattiehattie

[matt_hatter]

Miltie, I take it this is regarding our phone conversation---let me be clear that I am not judgemental of overweight preachers, or anyone for that matter. But Milite's question is a good one, given the fact that so many preachers, especially TV preachers (Hagee comes to mind) are so fat, and they never address the sin of gluttony. It is always the "safe" sins of adultery, homosexuality, abortion, etc. This is where my "judgement" comes in--don't tell me how to live without examining yourself! To these men, I say take a long look at your nekkid rump, push yourself away from the mega bar, and start walking! We have a hard time looking in the mirror, don't we? Guilty, yes I am!

[miltietoast]

cellulousciuos!

[wisedove]

nicknack-
I know your pain of being judged wrongly so many times in your life. I, too, have walked through judgement and false accusations, and I, too, join with you in thanking God for His grace and lovingkindness.
dove

[philiprosenthal]

Sorry Freedom43, there was lots of homosexuality around in the time Paul was writing - especially in ancient Greece where he was preaching. He will have known all about it. It was one of the most homosexualised societies since Sodom. But Christianity was victorious and it stamped out most of the problem. Christ can help you too, if you let him, but if you don't repent, you will go to hell.

[formermaranathapastor]

Philip- The mentioning of Hell when one is trying to get soneone to be convinced of God's love and goodness, is injecting FEAR into the discussion. It is sort of like the bridegroom saying to the Bride:
"If you do not love me forever, and forsake all others, I shall torture you horribly for all your days."

Not exactly warming to the heart is it?

It reminds me of much of the Maranatha-speak, readily damning folks, without speaking the love and Christ.

Your statement above infers spiritual violence, the using of scripture to bash and condemn others.
You said: "But Christianity was victorious and it stamped out most of the problem."
Is that what you think should happen today? That the problem should be stamped out?

Please consider that your above post is unkind and cruel.

[freedom43]

Thanks for following up, Philip. Sorry to disagree, but prostitutes, man on man sex as part of idol worship, rape, and adulterous man on man sex does not equal same-sex relationships of today -- definitely not mine.

Our culture is completely different from Paul's day with regard to many things (role of women, for example -- they were essentially property back then, roles in the church were very limited, etc). To say that "homosexuality" as we know it today is the same as it was then ignores history and reality. Same sex couples did not exist back then. Same sex sex did -- but most, if not all, people were married -- so that would make the sex adulterous.

So, Philip, if I were to become celibate again, then could I go to your heaven (as long as I weren’t breaking any other rules)? What if I still stayed in a "relationship" with my partner but didn't "act on it?" Just trying to understand your thinking and where that line between heaven and hell is?

Jesus said if you lust in your heart you have already committed adultery. Call it lust, call it feelings or attraction, call it a lifetime of celibacy and denial, but as far as I am concerned, this is something I was born with/stuck with and cannot change about myself. God knows I tried and begged Him to do so for 15 years. The Exodus formula didn't work for me.

As far as I am concerned, I was already in hell here on earth -- and I have since been delivered from it through God's grace and self acceptance. I have to trust that His grace is sufficient for me and His sacrifice enough and that if I am truly deluded as you think I am, that He is big enough to help me see the light/repent. Until then, I am going to do my best to love Him with all my heart and to love my neighbor as myself. This fulfills the law of God, according to scripture.

[mdillon]

i would like to say that I do not mind the least hanging with FormerMP or Freedom because I really don't care if I agree with them or not on doctrinal issues and anyone that suggests they go somewhere else only reminds me of "if you're not with us you're against us" bull**** that I have paid a tremendous price to get over. sorry, can't hold my tongue much longer. this is a mild post, also and if I go any further you will banish me as well, only if you could. this is not a nazi church here, if it is, sorry i'm in the wrong place and i'll go shortly before the beatings begin again.

FMP and Freedom i have enjoyed your input for quite some time and admire your courage to stand for what you believe. I am not your judge. I could care less what your sexual orientation is, doctrinal beliefs, zodiac, zipcode, or what color you can change a mood ring. If you were at my house you would sit down to a fine dinner that my little dillys would serve and we would enjoy a fine evening of conversation, miltie would bring the RR, mattie the merlot and we would all watch phillip do the dishes

peaceoutta
dillybreaux

[formermaranathapastor]

mdillon- LOL!! What a lovely post! I'll bring the salad!!

[mdillon]

i would like to say that I do not mind the least hanging with FormerMP or Freedom because I really don't care if I agree with them or not on doctrinal issues and anyone that suggests they go somewhere else only reminds me of "if you're not with us you're against us" bull**** that I have paid a tremendous price to get over. sorry, can't hold my tongue much longer. this is a mild post, also and if I go any further you will banish me as well, only if you could. this is not a nazi church here, if it is, sorry i'm in the wrong place and i'll go shortly before the beatings begin again.

FMP and Freedom i have enjoyed your input for quite some time and admire your courage to stand for what you believe. I am not your judge. I could care less what your sexual orientation is, doctrinal beliefs, zodiac, zipcode, or what color you can change a mood ring. If you were at my house you would sit down to a fine dinner that my little dillys would serve and we would enjoy a fine evening of conversation, miltie would bring the RR, mattie the merlot and we would all watch phillip do the dishes

peaceoutta
dillybreaux

[matt_hatter]

Correction. I would be bringing the Pinot Noir. But I would be there. Thanks for the invite, Dilly-bar.

[lablady2]

Phillip, would you please e-mail those polaroids of hell? I'm really getting into scrapbooking and it seems I've misplaced the ones I had. I've checked the internet, but I can't find any there either.

Must be nice to be so right.

[mdillon]

hey sameo,

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

oh no you di'ent

thanks for the correct mattie. and oh, lablady would bring the MD-20/20 and cigars

dillydi'ent

[lablady2]

Oh, and I'm bringing the jello fluff.

[mdillon]

hey sameo,

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

oh no you di'ent

thanks for the correct mattie. and oh, lablady would bring the MD-20/20 and cigars

dillydi'ent

[sameo]

what fruit salad? ;-)

[wildwood_]

Fruit salad great! Hold the nuts. (Walnuts, Almonds, Brazil, Acorns, etc) Seriously, Doctor said I shouldn't have popcorn either...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif I get a few posts behind and come back to find these threads...what a family! Just like the one I was born with...(somewhere here...then I have a twin lurking, be scared, be very scared).

[flo1151]

mdillon,

Why aren't you in school teaching those little angels. Are you multitasking?http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

flo

[freedom43]

mdillion and company: Thank you. I get the feeling you all live far far away. Otherwise, I might be knockin' on your door with food and drink in hand for dinner and lively conversation.

[miltietoast]

md 20/20 md your causing high school flashbacks, think I am going to puke. i am hearing StephenWolf magic carpet ride and my clothes are staring to smell like swisher sweets
I think I would like to exchange my gluttonny for fornicating or would I be committing adultry? So damn confusing.I have seen quite a few candidates for fornicating.I am looking for an openly fornicating church close to Cookeville,TN.I went to the openly thieving church but they stole my car.I'm tired of the adultry churches they are on every corner. I digress you noticed I did ask about the openly drunk church. I would think you were being judgemental and not very nice if you did not accept my drunk church.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi All- I know that this is, off topic. But I think that I have figured it out !!! The jokes , the thread topic hopping, the irreverent thoughts that keep getting posted.. <font size="+1">

It is the familiar spirit Of Mike Clauk..!!!</font>
They got in Ann Arbor, the fumes from the city local pot march opened the door and..}

[miltietoast]

hey copper in a cloud here
Dude where is the irreverence?I am confused ,right mattie?

[sameo]

Miss Kitty will bring a couple of "tarts!"

[wildwood_]

Freedom43...if you are ever on I35 head South, then head South on I37, around midnight when you start to see the lights of the big city...don't be deceived, those are oil refineries...keep driving. We're at the first exit with a "WHATABURGER" (don't ask). Guess we would have some interesting discussions, but I'd rather just give you a hug...believe me, after that drive no one feels much like talking! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif All God's Flock Welcome...Goats, Sheep, Armadillos...I am trying to exclude roaches despite my daughter's best reminders that "Mom, Jesus loves them, too." Who taught her that? I know it was her Father....

[mdillon]

<font size="+1">HOW DID ALL THESE PEOPLE GET IN MY HOUSE?</font>

I get home from school and I've got valet parking IN MY OWN FREAKING DRIVEWAY. Where did everybody come from? (put the tarts over there Sameo) WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE TURN DOWN THAT DAMN STEPPENWOLF MUSIC?!?! Geesh. Oh hey lablady, ummm yeah, chocolate's in the other cabinet. AND WHY DO I HAVE A CLEANING BILL FOR MILTIE'S 3-3? god, that incense is rank. MATTIE HELP. Oh, hey FormerMP and Freedom, glad you could make it.

<font size="+2">QUIET EVERYBODY!!!!!!!</font>

bill mack will now bless the food

[formermaranathapastor]

mdillon-

You get extra points for that one!!!!

[lablady2]

yeah, md, that was pretty entertaining.

Personally, my tastes back in the day ran more to Jethro Tull and Judy Collins. Of course, I'd throw the albums in the back window of my dad's 1964 Mercury with the 427 engine and turn them into lacy doilies. And I had a pair of size 2 bell bottom jeans with fringe on the hem that I couldn't get my left leg into now. And, I passed the pencil test (ask your wives; they'll know).

Those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end.....

[lablady2]

I did save a couple of albums for the party. How 'bout:

Iron Butterfly: In da gada da vida
Santana - Abraxis - Black magic woman
Led Zeppelin - Stairway to heaven
Doors - Light my Fire

Hope your turntable works and you have a good needle.

[matt_hatter]

"the fumes from the city local pot march"

Miltie remembers...they called the thing the Annual Hash Bash. Openly lit up weed on the Diag, where Mike Caulk became the famous Diag Preacher.

In 1982, possession of weed in Ann Arbor was a citation, issued like a parking ticket. Unlike a parking ticket, it was 5 bucks. The parking tickets in a university town could break you. This poor boy from Cow College, Alabama....lord help!

[lablady2]

Ann Arbor - quite the town during the 60s.

In fact, I got my certification as a childbirth educator from a group based in Ann Arbor. It was called Informed Homebirth and Parenting, and it was started by a group of hippy, dippy buddist midwives.

They made their way to Boulder in 1983. They probably came there to visit Naropa Institute or wait for the Dali Lama. Quite a revelation for a Kentucky gal, too.

[wildwood_]

Lablady you suggested:
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Iron Butterfly: In da gada da vida
Santana - Abraxis - Black magic woman
Led Zeppelin - Stairway to heaven
Doors - Light my Fire <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

'tis strange to me how these formerly obnoxious sounding songs have become classics to my ears. True confession: I still don't care much for stairway to heaven. I've just always wanted to yell "SO, get on up there already, just how many stairs are in that staircase? Take an elevator next time.
I had one of "those" difficult, dreadful, Mother-Daughter talks recently...I avoided it as long as possible, but finally I could put it off no longer.. I had to explain to my daughter that Momma grew up with a "Record Player". She still doesn't quite understand about LPs, thinks they're skinny frisbees..sigh.

Md...I KNOW you've got a stash of Lynyrd Skynyrd...

[lablady2]

wild: I think you had to be in a certain mooooood to appreciate stairway to heaven.

[mdillon]

stairway rocks still evern without a spliff. lablady i saw Jethro Tull twice live. ian anderson smoked that flute. nice playlist and the turntable is humming

hi wildy- yes, skynyrd, allman, zepplin, tull, the band, dylan, (why do i sense an all-seeing eye watching?)and of course, Van the Man. a few years back the chilren bought me tiks for allman bros. concert for my birthday. god bless them lil' dillys.

dillyeaux

[lablady2]

Van is SO the man. Moon dance, Crazy Love.

The perfect Sunday: Boat anchored out in the middle of the lake, rocking lazily back and forth biminis up, lying on the deck, reading a book, and listening to Van.

[wildwood_]

Lablady:...hmmm, the strange aroma from my older brother's room that was not his socks. Later in life when he had his own apartment, I saw this bag he said was "catnip";sad truth, I was 23 at the time...I believed him, he did have very happy cats. I really did need to get out more back then. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

md: ...don't know about the all-seeing eye but my husband's reading over my shoulder, that's not an uncommon impact the Sarge has on folks usually just younger enlisted. I told him to knock it off and save it for "work". He gave me that "I have a silly wife" look (obviously it didn't work), and said our daughter should learn from the lil'dilly's!!!

[lablady2]

wild: I didn't know you had a sarge!

What branch of the military? My daughters are both Army (hoohah).

[miltietoast]

freedom-- the miltie treehouse is open and rent is free ,sometimes you have to share.
Did you all hear about the software salesman that died and went to the pearly gates? I will tell you anyway. St Peter asked him if he wanted to go to heaven or hell? He said do i have a choice? yep was reply. St Peter push a button and showed video of heaven ,clouds harps babies .Salesman says whats hell look like? St peter pushes button and video pops up of hell with all his friends partying. He says StPete hells for me. He goes down stairs opens door and the devil pitchforks him in the butt and says get to work. Software salesmen says it is really hot here and this isn't anything like St Pete showed me. devil smiles and says you must have seen our demo!

[lablady2]

miltie: I think I've fallen for a version of that before.

[lablady2]

Geez, I'll have to correct that. My apologies to the Army. It's HooAh!

[mdillon]

hey wildy hubby Sarge, nice to see you, wasn't you I was sensing but some here who would shout from the mountaintop behind the KJV. oh, and your daughter has time to learn. some of my lil' dillys are as old as some posters here.

wildy, your bro sounds like a real animal lover

LAB- Party on the Pontoon!! (hey, q?- is RR considered a clear liquid?)

dillyeaux

[sameo]

LOL Wildwoman....lucky, happy cats! I bet they were mellow...don't chu' Marshall Dilly? hehe

[lablady2]

No, but beef broth is.

I would love a party on the pontoon! So far, the only company we've had on the boat is a bunch of wet, wild grandkids doing endless cannon balls off the back. It's enough to drive one to drink.

I am on call to set up an IV of RR upon request. I'll even bolus you a couple of bottles.

[miltietoast]

miltie: I think I've fallen for a version of that before. which version?

[mdillon]

lablady your buzzer is going off. BOLUS baby

SUP HappyMissKitty

dillyeaux

[sameo]

...that's HappyMellowMissKitty! ha oh, wow, cat and Miss Kitty...lol that's heavy mon!

Hello to all tonight! :-)

[lablady2]

milt: The old MCM demo version.

md: relax, prop your dawgs up, listen to a little Stevie Ray and enjoy your RR through a hose.

[mdillon]

lab you have powers

dawgs are up, HWY 61 on the buds, chasing magnesium citrate w/RR (ugh)

[lablady2]

mag citrate? Tonight?

Stay close to home.

[wildwood_]

Hey Y'all: Please accept the inclusive "Y'all" since it saves me going back and figuring out who said what exactly (how rude of me,sorry) and marginally allows me to keep up. An ongoing problem I have with my daughter, if y'all do the math you'll see that if I was in college in the '70's (and I was) that it is a fine joke to have an eight year old daughter. So I'm only twenty nine...this could work as a nice mass conspiracy of the willing. Something along the lines of recent "Conspiracy of Grace" described in Mike Y's <u>Messy Spirituality</u>. Or not...it's one thing my sister &amp; I "agree" on...odd family aren't we. Don't answer that.

My brother's cats are less happy than they were; since he did meet Jesus a few years ago and decided that "something" had just been "stealing" his time for the last oh, thirty years. Then the confirmed bachelor married, joined a mega-church, and happily sings in the Choir! Now I'm on his prayer list. (I think I have some "issues" here...). The "Sarge" is ARMY...HooAH...and just very suspiciously tried some green bottled beer...having recently been pleasantly shocked by some "Red Striped" beer. Not purchases that I am normally prone to make. Y'all got major "credibility" points now. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

Somehow that all ties back into the "Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ". I'll figure it out in the morning.

[lablady2]

wild: my sister is in her mid 50s and has a 14 year old. Keeps her young, I think.

Go Army! One daughter was stationed at Ft. Leavenworth and the other was at Ft. Hood. I flew to Ft. Hood to be with my daughter for surgery for ovarian cancer (not the most deadly epithelial type, thank God). She was 22 at the time. I'm happy to say that she is now 29 and remains cancer free. I was impressed with the treatment we received at Ft. Hood.

[wildwood_]

Lablady how did you hit on my two favorite places in the world...OK..I've been to almost all the medical clinics at Ft Leavenworth! I lived with my sister in Kansas when my husband was deployed and of course, he deployed out of Ft Hood...doesn't everybody??? It's odd but I really liked Ft Hood...smokey though...and if they aren't smoking they're chew'n. So was my hubby when he came home...that was annoying. Took awhile for one of us to get over it.

I'm so glad that your daughter's doing well...what a scarey time for her. And your sister with a 14 year old, LOL, now I'll know who to come to for advice about my niece (the 11 year old going on 21)!!!

[mdillon]

Allright, everybody get a trash bag and start cleaning up, my house is a wreck from the party last night, everybody is still mellowed from c-tree pot march. Anybody seen Miss Kitty? I found her mole.

dillyeaux

[mdillon]

Allright, everybody get a trash bag and start cleaning up, my house is a wreck from the party last night, everybody is still mellowed from c-tree pot march. Anybody seen Miss Kitty? I found her mole.

dillyeaux

[wisedove]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[wisedove]

was I at that party?! Or am I being brought in to do the cleaning up afterwards?http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

[wisedove]

Oh, and dilly-would you care to know that I was CRAZY enough to go to office depot after my fiasco with the other file cabinet, and I purchased ANOTHER cabinet for a different area in the house, and tackled THAT one last night alone, again!? I'm becoming a jack-of-all-trades...I only put something on backwards and had to take it all apart and re-do it ONCE!

i'm a glutten for punishment!~

[mdillon]

yes dove I do care that you are CRAZY enough to purchase ANOTHER <strike>piece of crap</strike> cabinet. hate to see you torture yourself so, but you do need to specialize. i am now a jack<strike><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font></strike>-of-one-trade.

dillyeaux

[mdillon]

yes dove I do care that you are CRAZY enough to purchase ANOTHER <strike>piece of crap</strike> cabinet. hate to see you torture yourself so, but you do need to specialize. i am now a jack<strike><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font></strike>-of-one-trade.

dillyeaux

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Dilly- Yes, I thought it came in with those fumes from Ann Arbor. You have to be careful, guard yourself from that. Or you could wind up with squirrel loving cats!! What next, then.}

[mdillon]

thanks copper for the heads up. we can't have squirrel loving cats now can we or they'll have to go to another thread.

picadillyeaux

[mdillon]

thanks copper for the heads up. we can't have squirrel loving cats now can we or they'll have to go to another thread.

picadillyeaux

[sameo]

LOL..Picadilly-weed--what are you doing?LOL get your arz back to work! hey---where's my mole? I've been lookin' all over for that thing. Just stick it in a lil' baggy and save it fer' me.

[mdillon]

Here you go Miss Kitty, found it in a bowl of hershey kisses that lablady brought.

Where'd dove go, she was cleaning up a while ago. Wow, Kitty, have you ever before seen anyone doing that many espresso shots like she did last night? I mean, no wonder she walks around mumbling 'i'm not ok' well, go figure

dillyeaux

[mdillon]

Here you go Miss Kitty, found it in a bowl of hershey kisses that lablady brought.

Where'd dove go, she was cleaning up a while ago. Wow, Kitty, have you ever before seen anyone doing that many espresso shots like she did last night? I mean, no wonder she walks around mumbling 'i'm not ok' well, go figure

dillyeaux

[sameo]

Wow...my mole smells like chocolate. HEy, thx Dillweed....and yeh, you know, funny thing about Dovey...she's alot more OK than she realizes. That's what I think. My prayer for her is that she realizes one day just HOW OK she really is..and that she is a woman pleasing to GOD! NOw those espresso shots...man, she was bouncin' off the wall...did you see her swinging from your chandalier? (oops--u weren't suppose to know about that) Anyhoo....so glad you found my mole. How the heck did you find it..LOL And where the heck was it? ahh...this should be good!

[sameo]

OH, wait, duh...haha you said you found it in the hershey's kisses bowl...oops! Well now I look like the dumb broad I am. IT's just that I was never anywhere the choc bowl. ha

The little mysteries of life...

[wisedove]

PICadilly NOW? as in "u can PICk who gets to go to your house parties? never answered my question from above, dill-pickle. That's o.k., I can settle for doin the cleanin up!

Hi, Sameo-you still crack me up. (That could have been a separate post, in order to increase my membership status, but I see how DILLY-O is doin it! All those double-dippers-he's just tryin to catch up with MATT and JrJ REAL FAST!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

posted the above on the WRONG thread earlier! But, dilly-o, you seemed to have FOUND ME!!<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Where'd dove go, she was cleaning up a while ago. Wow, Kitty, have you ever before seen anyone doing that many espresso shots like she did last night? I mean, no wonder she walks around mumbling 'i'm not ok' well, go figure<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Is THAT why I keep seeing double?heheh!

Sameo-too kind! I forgive ya for blowing my cover about the chandalier! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

be back later! off to football practice for the evening.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lame.gif

[sameo]

OH, man, now I've insulted lablady probably. IT wasn't the chocolates or lab I was staying away from...Miss Kitty's just watching her weight. All this Gunsmoke garb is rather cumbersome. Still can't figure out how it got in the choc bowl...LOL (Scratching my red wig on that one)

Ah, Dovey-glad you aren't angry at me. I know you can be a live wire. hehe ;-)

[mdillon]

<font size="+1">WHERE WAS EVERYBODY LAST NIGHT?</font>
why didn't you TELL me you guys were all going out? Geesh, trying to get the place cleaned up and I come back and its like you guys VANISHED.

ok, ok, Factnet, PLEASE don't do that again. I PROMISE to send in my monthly pledge from my plastic bread loaf. Was it me and miltie? Look, I told you guys we were a little short on cash and you could put the 2 cases of RR to good use. That was HARSH, man, I mean some of us had to go to WORK today with NO WARNING.

dillyeaux

[flo1151]

dillyeaux,
the ghost of the machine told me that some of you were double and triple posting so they had to cut you off to learn your lesson.

[mdillon]

flo, notice what a quick learner I am? no doubles today. I evern might be a good boy for a day. but man, how else am I gonna catch that postwhore mattie? flo, THE GHOST SPEAKS TO YOU, TOO? Ahh, man, that's cool. I thought I was the only one.

dillyeaux

[wisedove]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

WHERE WAS EVERYBODY LAST NIGHT?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

picadillyeaux,
I think we were all passed out from exhaustion after cleaning up your house after that big party....\

[john_r_jones]

I've posted (http://johnshutch.blogspot.com/) some thoughts that are long in coming to the fore of my sense of what Chrisitanity is or isn't.
John

[miltietoast]

regarding squirrel that loves cats ---what if squirrel was born that way?

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Miltie- I think, if the squirrel was born that way that it would have a short life. All the ones that were befriended by my cats were young,teenagers.}

[philiprosenthal]

I have started a new thread on the root to discuss the issue of Churches that tolerate homosexuality. Thankfully, to the best of my knowledge, EveryNation has not sunk this low. Those who want to discuss this, please go there.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/24058.html?1157303925

[matt_hatter]

Phillip, I wish sometimes you would just take a chill pill. There are enough arguements in here to satisfy me for life. All you are doing is stirring up smelly stuff. This is a board for survivors of a cult. We all have different walks. It is not your job to save the world, that, my friend was settled at the cross.

In all of your constant thread weaving, I cannot remember you ever giving a personal love letter from the Master to encourage others in here. I, for one will not go to this thread and I hope it gathers cobwebs. Sheesh!!! Give it a rest dude!
Matt

(Message edited by matt hatter on September 03, 2006)

[lablady2]

Matt: you're my hero.