How have we progressed since ENMSMCM

[dust]

Someone on a previous thread suggested that we have not progressed in the last 13 months. (spiritually)

While hard to prove, if one is in relationship with the people on this board, you can track the progression.

I have progressed in that I’ve gone backwards, no longer relying on my zeal, my gifts, my talents, and full of self-ambition. I rely on God and now know what it means that when I’m weak I am strong. I have progressed in that I don’t hold any man up above God as an idol and worship his personality, only the personalities of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I have progressed in that my giving is done in secret and my prayers are not fancy, but more simple .

I have progressed in that I don’t hold any grudges against any one man or minister, but I know that the enemy is Satan, and it’s his schemes I fell for through my own vanity, and my zeal to please men. I have progressed in that I no longer look for a destiny, but am grateful for the one I am living in.

My hearing has improved. My sight has improved. I can not only “hear’ the Holy Spirit, I have the freedom to respond. My sight (my discernment) is not clouded by cognitive dissonance or being in the middle of opposing gospels. I am free to be involved as a volunteer for a para ministry, a community funded clinic for children without feeling guilty or feeling like I am going against my church. I am free to directly support widows and children. I am free to teach mainstream bible studies that focus on the Word. I am free to evangelize and not look at someone like a "project" that will please my church leaders.

I have progressed in that I no longer fret about being a powerful or enchanting leader and I know my position in leadership and influence for the true gospel is a bloody battle worth fighting, has no earthly crowns or rewards, but that all reward is really the kingdom of heaven and real Christians carry crosses, not Prada or Gucci.

I have progressed in putting what Jesus Christ has DONE over what I can do.

(I'm sorry for all the I words).

[wisedove]

Dust,
thanks for this post. It was sorta just hanging there all alone. I decided to check it out.

Progression. progression

pro·gres·sion [prə grésh'n]
(plural pro·gres·sions)
noun
1. gradual advancement: a gradual change or advancement from one state to another
2. forward movement: movement forward or onwards

yes, I would say that I have progressed. I am free to be who God wants me to be. I am free to be free. Really. It's liberating. Knowing that through out the last few months and the many changes (church, etc.) I have gone through, I am totally further ahead now than being in bondage to "coverings" and the other things that defined EN churches.

My relationship with the Lord is much sweeter now.

[40days40years]

Yeah that is pretty good stuff: I no longer look for a destiny, but am grateful for the one I am living in. The other points are good to ofcourse.

[dust]

Hey 40,
I'm curious, what part of the world do you live in? Thanks for seeing my viewpoint.

What I'm seeing on this board are two CULT experiences, very different from each other (although there are some similarities). Dove and I both spent 5 years at different EN churches, but the experiences were NOT as abusive. And, I want to make that clear...because the "OUTLOOK" leaving, then, will be very different.


I came to this board to work through the faulty doctrine, sort it out, heal up from the pain of leaving a church I loved.

I read a lot of posts yesterday and tried to understand the viewpoint of most MCM people here. Witnessing the faith seems to almost be a sin instead of what we are called to do. The word "OUTREACH" makes someone wretch because the experience they had was horrible and didn't operate inside the love of Christ. Tragic and this tells me even more that Every Nation is not MCM...not even close.

It's all perfectly UNDERSTANDABLE to another MCMer. To someone in EN, it tells me WOW, what a totally different experience we've had. I didn't suffer this same abuse, and I don't know how I would react, probably very shut down.

My biggest dilemna in leaving EN was NOT do I witness my faith, it was, once I witness, WHAT church do I send them to? What leadership can I trust to take care of this new Christian's faith? So, even that is a very different outlook, from what I'm reading here.

I'm not converting anyone here. I am sharing my experiences....what it was like for me to leave EN, how difficult it was to be a misplaced evangelist. Do I apologize for being an evangelist? No, according to my faith, it was how God created me. And, it doesn't mean that there is something spiritually crooked with me either. There must be room for people like myself misplaced and still wanting to do ministry. I keep reading that is not a religious board, not a Christian board, but for ex-cult members. My question, as an ex-cult member, where do I discuss my experiences, and they all have to do with my religion, so how to do I wrestle with this safely here?

There TWO cult experiences here..two separate ministries. I would NEVER want to hurt someone with "RELIGION." I'm so not religious, not raised in church or the south (California girl), I don't know how to even be religious, but I do want to be holy, and these are very different.

Someone (from MCM) said EN people are addicted to religion and don't have a biblical worldview. That's just untrue. But saying 'addiction to religion" diminishes a very real passion for Jesus Christ, and it insults me, it insults who I am. And I'm sure it insults others. But, more than anything, it diminishes the real worship of JESUS CHRIST. And it judges someone's faith. That kind of statement doesn't open up its arms to embrace people from Every Nation who need a place to come to. Just because they find themself in the WRONG church of God, doesn't mean their faith isn't REAL or VALID.

[dust]

Sadly this attitude shows the serious damage done in MCM...what kind of hell did the MCM people live through to see everything through such dark glasses... Well, I'm here to say that people in ministry or people who do OUTREACH or have a calling in that direction are often very in tune with GOD, love God with all their heart, mind and soul, and just follow what God puts in them. And there are people here who don't step into organized religion that are AWESOME and love God just as fervently. I make room for both viewpoints.

If this board doesn't have room for the Christians who are leaving Every Nation, and for it to be a SAFE PLACE to wrestle those Christian beliefs, then how can an EN person get value here. Make room for people to not be afraid to be who they are. Maybe you don't like it....maybe it brings a flashback....maybe you have some bias that is UNDERSTANDABLE.

And, I'm asking to just for a second try to see from my viewpoint. I'm trying to see from yours. And I appreciate that.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Dust, Thank you for your thoughtful post.
I shared my faith with a lot of people when I was in MCM, I did not bring everyone to my church. I felt that they are God's own, and I was a messenger, so to speak. Sometimes, it is good to have a fallow field for a while to sort things out.
From what I see here about En it is very similar to MCM. I think , if you was in the inner leadership, ei. beyond a homegroup leader, the story and involvement would be different from what you have reported here. It would be more intense on you personally and you would have seen more.


You are indeed luckily to get out so easily without much damage.}

[dust]

coppertree: You are indeed luckily to get out so easily without much damage.}

I didn't leave completely unharmed, it's just about degrees and age differences and one other thing.

Bethel is a LARGE church. I wrote this on another post, it has subgroups, so people could be experiencing very different things depending on their age and who their pastor is and if they are married or not and on their personality type. I was married and that gave me a lot more protection. I was a business owner, older...very different dynamics.

But, still I sat down with Rice Broocks myself and told him everything I disagreed with and had a real actual dialogue. Would that have been possible to do with Bob Weiner? Now I bring this up because when people from EN come here, they may not recognize understand because it's not the DEGREE of MCM. EN tried to correct some things...just can't be done. The history runs deep and they keep making the same mistakes...but I don't think to the degree of MCM.

I think that might even be a BIGGER PROBLEM sometimes, because THEY THINK they have corrected themself.

[dust]

I'm reading my post and I don't want to DISMISS anyone's experience and say again, there are subgroups, so it's possible for people to be in the same EN church and experience something differently...and especially married vs. single. It's harder on the singles. I think Bethel is militant with the college group, but most of the population of Bethel is suburban family...

And, there are huge problems inside the leadership. I originally started this thread to share some positive changes I was able to make after leaving...getting away from such a skewed view and I wanted to give people hope. But, I am sensitive to the fact that experiences are individual and it's possible for someone from EN to even have been more abused than someone from MCM.

I hope that if someone is reading they would be willing to share their experiences, ask their questions and know there is healing after such disappointment...that this is a good place to wrestle the questions of the faith.

And, that it's not a bunch of people stuck in bitterness, but people moving toward a more healthy approach to the faith.

[40days40years]

Dust I think it is very easy to be a member of EN who was more abused then someone from MCM. It depends on the church, your age, are you on a leadership "track" and subjected to their teachings, what are your theological positions before you join which might protect you a bit ...etc. It's the campus section that is going to be dicey in modern EN is my bet, that is the section that makes young people into Maranatha Leadership Material.

Somebody doing what Leo did or teaching multiple heresies or forcing people to denounce their conversions, teachers standing up in EN and saying the Book of Revelations was a fable coming from the addled brain of John? That would have been a get out of jail free card for me, a super abusive church like some in Southern California? Same thing (I am Nor Cal). The people I went to church with in the mid eighties were kind and their kindnest was stronger then the rotteness in this system,(that is what kept me around when my guts were screaming leave) those people are like you and Forward today so I don't know whats going on. I have to re-evaluate this thing also.

There have been quite a few reforms to EN because of this board. Talking to Rice about reform? he has had a lot of practice. I am sure he would be kind, sincere, glib, apologetic about your concerns but he knows once you walk out that door nothing will change much. He most likely does not want it to change and besides once your to the point of talking to him about EN problems? Your already packing your bags anyway so he can be kind and humor you.

[40days40years]

Oh and that destiny thing kept me from leaving to, can't walk out on God now.

[matt_hatter]

dust:"Witnessing the faith seems to almost be a sin instead of what we are called to do. The word "OUTREACH" makes someone wretch"

I know all you have to go on are the words that are typed on a message board, but don't read too much into them. I know many of the folks in here from the old MCM days, they are good solid believers who may just see things differently from you. Personally, the remnant influence of those days are long gone. The words of my old bretherns and friends do not threaten nor dissapoint, it is the honesty that I crave from them, especially after living under such a shroud of phoniness for all those years.

I just ask that you take into account that this is a message board and the words are sometimes filled with sarcasm, vain attempts at humor, etc, yet our real lives are much more healthy spiritually than you might have concluded. I speak from experience here, I am in contact by email or phone with so many of my old running buddies. A better idea of who I really am is on my blog. It speaks of my life experiences here in Montgomery and the grace that I cling to each day. My blog has created many closed door sessions with colleages in my office, sharing God's love and praying. I hesitate to share things like this; they are secret matters between my friends, God and me. I have learned the lessons of "truly, you have your reward in full." after years of tooting noisy horns in MCM. I can tell you that my old buddies are doing the same thing. This is outreach in the purest form of the word. The rejection of the word comes from what it entailed in MCM.

I personally have had many more "divine appointments" with people in the last few years than I ever had in those days. It is because I have a real love in my heart for God now, not some manufactured "outreach" mentality. You have to understand, young folks everywhere were literally forced to attend meeting every night for weeks at a time, sacrificing school, etc, and having the same 50-60 people come to the same meeting night after night. As a reward, people like Bob W would chew your butt for not "believing God" for your campus. Reminds me of the old joke: "Beatings will stop once morale improves." It is not the concept of outreaching to others that make some of us wretch, it is the actual "outreach" meetings we refer to.

Please try to take these things into account when you think of us. I believe we do serve an Awesome God who knows we are each fearfully and wonderfully meade, yet finite in our thinking, human in our actions, and forgiven because of His love.

[miltietoast]

mattie ---those outreach meetings--I need inner healing ---maybe acouple of RR slushies---
Just thinking mattie, maybe dust should spend a day with me, divine appointment school,it will all work out school, we can recover school.
Dust just send tuition to my paypal acct.

[mdillon]

yeah, hey dust since it was me who used the word 'wretch' let me say it again. I said I wretch over the word outreach because it was so beat into us and mattie explained it beautifully and so did miltie. we are still 'outreaching' but just don't call it that. just so's you know, if mattie even jokes with me and says 'hey let's do an outreach' I will put a boot up his clacker. i cannot get away from 'ministering' to youth even though i have tried. one of the most liberating things i have discovered is that i can win them to Jesus and not have to win them to a 'church'. i've had more 'ministry' outside the steeplehouse walls than i've ever had before.

miltie i marvel when i open up factnet and see you have a post on half the freaking threads. good to see you back btw. one more week, huh?

[matt_hatter]

Miltie, have you hollowed out the pumkins or do I need to stop at the 7-11 and get a few styrofoam ice chests? Will the happy couple be toasting with RR origial or Green Light? Now that she's hooked the man, she may go with the calorie laden stuff, as she won't need to be watching that figure anymore.
Disclaimer: This is a joke.

[miltietoast]

hey it's sunday
but I still have the cravin to go work on the mountain
what is wrong with me?
krems come pray for me and have a drink

[miltietoast]

iced down pumkin with RR slushies has a fall ambieance(that's for you flo) to it

[miltietoast]

yeah it is about time to head off the village kitchen and get my pre mattie special--2 fried om,bac,homefries toast and gravy,snd coffeee yum yum then it is off to lowes and look at compressors,drillbits,battery operated drills,might check sheetrock ailse for lablady ,I am sure i will hear her before I see her.lmao(lost 2lbs)

[lablady2]

miltie: husband and I are getting ready to sheetrock the ceiling in the kitchen. I am actually being allowed to go to Lowes to check out new lighting. Trust me, you will probably hear me before you see me. I will be asking the guy with the ladder to bring down anything and everything I think I might want. Then I will look for some small defect so I can argue over the price. My idea of a fun day.

[mdillon]

iced down pumkin with RR slushies has a fall ambieance

yeah and I would say a bit translucent (that's for you, too, flo)

good to see you enjoying your Sabbath miltie and re-energizing your health with rest, meditation, and breakfast at the village kitchen. miltie you're fibbin' if you say 'lmao' and lost only 2lbs. and on a Sabbath too. tsk tsk.

[miltietoast]

I do not like being the butt of your jokes

[flo1151]

miltie,

I am picking up at note of sarcasm here. I am not the one looking for Ben Gay. I am heading for the home depot now, do I need to pick you up anything?

[mdillon]

miltie i think you were the butt of your own joke

[lablady2]

Sigh. Enough about butts. I was having a good day.

[matt_hatter]

dust, ignore our banter, but would be interested in your response to the heart of our posts. They were spoken in love, as I have seen you seeking to understand the difference in our ministries/experiences. Hopefully, we have shed some light on it. I guess we just had a lifetime of that nonsense crammed into a very intense period of time, and now our Christian walks may just be a tad unconventional. Much more effective, however, in the real kingdom sense.

I could tell you stories about the personal touch dilly and miltie have had in people's lives, but they would beat me senseless for exposing their secret kingdom activities. Real life doesn't take place on a message board, I know you know that too.

[miltietoast]

flo check out the rigid tools for me
undestand they have a lifetime warranty
that is better than a WOF confession

[flo1151]

miltie,

I picked up some rigid angel bearings and a wood stretcher. I have never tried the wood stretcher but I thought it sounded interesting.

[miltietoast]

could have used the wood strecher the other day even if it didn't have a warranty

[dust]

Dillon
I get it...I UNDERSTAND, and that was my point...the words, "disciple and shepherd" make me wretch, cringe, and they are words my current church uses. They mean them in a good way, but, its still a battle and I'm looking to see if they are like EN. But, they're not.

I wrote this post to open a sincere dialogue of how EN and MCM are different (and similar) and how my experiences were very different and that not everyone coming from EN was necessarily a product of the product, but may just have been a casualty.

First of all, I was married, over 40, too old and too sincere in my love for God and I wasn't on the campus, so I didn't have the same kind of abuses that younger, single people would have. My "witnessing" wasn't at church; it's always been a one on one kind of thing as the Holy Spirit leads. So we have different language.

I was hoping to be understood that what you saw and witnessed at MCM is not every person at EN. I spent a long time Friday trying to see through your eyes.

I got in TROUBLE for rejecting the new cell outreach structure in 2004 and this lead to a private talk with RIce Broocks. I opposed very openly what they were trying to do...Matt knows my story...so I'm really lost on the comment about manufactured faith. Maybe you saw a lot of that at MCM, but I didn't get saved inside a church and I didn't have those experiences. And, I fought like crazy so others wouldn't.

I am obviously the worst writer in history...because I can't get on paper what is in my heart. And, all I've done is bring something on that has crushed me today,

[matt_hatter]

dust, I don't see how you call yourself the worst writer, I think how we responded was to what you have proposed, that our experiences were quite different, and that we in turn have all turned out a little different, but sharing the same common love of God.

I don't understand how anyone's words could have crushed you, I see you as one who is sincerely looking for answers just like the rest of us. I hope that you would look at our words as an explaination to some of our rather unorthodox views on this crazy thing called life.

I think all respect the work that God is doing in your life, just wanting you to have a little more insight in why we may be like we are.

[dust]

You talk about honesty...I was as honest as I know how to be.

I purposely redirected this away from the bunny trails and thought that maybe we could talk to each other and try to understand each other.

When I first opened the board today, I burst into tears for a long time. It's a spiritual crisis for me today because, Matt, you said these posts were in love and I don't feel the love. I feel rejected and foolish, humiliated.

And, I'm your sister in Christ...so as I said, it's a spiritual crisis for me to reconcile.

[dust]

Dillon: have discovered is that i can win them to Jesus and not have to win them to a 'church'. i've had more 'ministry' outside the steeplehouse walls than i've ever had before.

Dust: You and I are more on the same page than you think.....I understand.....I feel the same way....I won't do ministry connected with a church. At least that's how I feel now..... I am just now folding back into a church and yet I have that one open, one eye shut. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[mdillon]

hey dust, no worries,

I spent a long time Friday trying to see through your eyes.

that's a scary proposition, no wonder your weekend has been a little spooky, heh? hey, i'm kidding. I too had some private talks with Rice but the censors won't let me post what was said.(hi ricey!) I'm not really all that concerned about any type of 'reform' for EN nor do I believe for a second that everyone has had the same experiences, God, I hope and pray not. coppertree and 40/40 both bring in very valid points above about the continuity from MCM to EN. If that were not true, most of us would not even be here. Be that as it may, I know not every EN situation is the same. But like Mark Twain said of the scriptures "its not the parts I don't understand that bother me, its the parts I do understand". Its the similarities that are worth looking into and the fact that every one of the founders of EN are lockstock and barrel MCM.

It is difficult on these boards to truly know where someone is coming from all the time unless you know them or have known them. One of the more astonishing factors here in my mind is the reunion of so many that have known each other and the renewal of conversation and fellowship that goes on outside these boards. Because of this, many have found closure and healing and a deeper sense that in spite of our naiveté in suffering as well as propogating the abuse, He, the Lord never left us or forsook us. And yes, we will forever poke fun at the nonsense we all went through, hell,we were doing that long before 1989, so maybe with some of us we're just picking back up where we left off.

peace,
dillyeaux

[dust]

Dillon
Thanks,
I really appreciate your words. (I appreciate your words too Matt).

Dillon, I've wanting to tell you for a long time, I love your work, and wish I could afford you.

[matt_hatter]

dust, I have re-read my post. I can only wish that you could have heard my voice as I typed the words. I only wanted to give you some insight into some of us old timers, not critisize you. It is different roads we took and are taking, but I do believe they lead to the Master! God bless. Matt

[lablady2]

I've read and reread matt's post and i cannot identify what words in his post are crushing. I thought they were thoughtful and honest.

It would be helpful to me if I could understand what in particular was hurtful in his commentary. Perhaps that would give some insight into why there's difficulty in communication sometimes. His comment about manufactured outreach related totally to our MCM experience.

[dust]

Your post was fine....I think it was that it went so bunny trail and I thought you were making fun of me, and standing alone (no EN buddies) well, I didn't get it. Okay, I'm going to try to because individually, Milite, FLo, etc. always liked. no problems there.
And, maybe it didn't go EXACTLY as I thought, but there was some dialogue today. Now you all have to understand Forword. We get home from church...I go into my office. I read the board...I burst into tears...he goes into his office and starts posting..understandable if you would have seen me earlier.

You see I've come to see you all as family anyway!

[dust]

Let's get off the dust topic. Jesus is better. So today the sermon was pretty incredible. I go to very African American church...picture Tyler Perry movies and if you don't know Tyler Perry I recommend you rent Diary of a MaD Black Woman.

Well, he said, "you can witness your faith WITHOUT BEING all cleaned up or not having problems. It's not US that does the witnessing....for example you could be smoking a cigerette, rolling rock in hand, and that person you're talking to might still want what you have.....BECAUSE IT"S NOT YOU. And, don't tell them they have to quit, drinking, cussing, fussing, etc. You'll scare em off...just be real. Ruth followed Naomi and Naomi had weak faith.

A lot DIFFERENT from Every Nation, where RIce removed an usher from serving communion because he was wearing workboots.

[lablady2]

dust: I think we go bunny trail easily because of our backgrounds and our ages. Maybe our experiences in MCM taught us not to take things too seriously. My "serious" life is led away from the board; I think that was a point that matt was trying to make. This board respresents many of us in a very one-dimensional way.

It may help if you understand this: many of us just found each other on this board after a 20+ year absence. Some of us had somewhat complicated relations in the past but were delighted to find that we had put that all behind us in God's love, despite our differing religious perspectives. It is, in fact, a happy reunion for many of us. It's kind of like a meeting of veterans of a bloody and ugly war; we are just giddy to have survived and are amazed that the love of God has led each of us on a path of forgiveness even before our meeting. I hope that gives you some insight. Our jesting and silliness is not making fun of you; if anything, we are making fun of ourselves.

[mdillon]

Dillon, I've wanting to tell you for a long time, I love your work, and wish I could afford you.

dust, how do you know you can't? "you have not because...." hey, i'm trying to get jonesee to pitch me something just so I can weasle some of his jambalaya.

thank you for your kind words and please know that I deeply appreciate it.

hey dusty, when some of us show up at the same time on any thread it automatically turns bunnyish, not outta disrespect, its just who we are. take gah's thread for instance, he came on with one of the most sincere apologies and humility of any former pastor and we were so excited to see him me and mattie had turned his backyard into a combination hunting refuge/distillery (brilliant btw) within half a dozen posts. i'm thinking gah might have felt honored by that but now that i'm writing this it might be the reason we haven't heard back from him. oh well, scratch that----just think it might have been more hurtful if we hadn't shown up at all. maybe. dunno. suppose? just thinking.

dilly

[mdillon]

A lot DIFFERENT from Every Nation, where RIce removed an usher from serving communion because he was wearing workboots.

Oh wow, he got that right out of page 3 of Leadership Principles by Robert (Rose) Weiner. Right now there is a lottery going on amongst the angels of heaven as to which one will get to wear those boots and welcome Rice right through the Gates for a 3-pointer. (hi ricey!)

[dust]

hahahahahahhahahaha

I actually think he later got convicted and apologized. Maybe he was having a flashback himself that day.

[dust]

I mean man sometimes I get convicted that I'm not praying more these leaders...He was favored because of his looks, his gift of speaking...so does anyone remember Rice themself? Did he get the treatment like everyone else did?

I kept waiting in Tik's blog, but there wasn't much about Rice.

[matt_hatter]

"I thought you were making fun of me,"

dust so sorry you interpreted it this way. As LL and dilly said, it is really our strange way of sharing our love with one another, as we all do wish we could gather this afternoon at Home Depot and take off to Miltie's and peek in a hollowed-out pumpkin.

I am interested in the dialogue, but do not want to cause hurt. Just want you to know, as LL said, some of us are showing our simple dimensional Warner Brothers Cartoon Character side in here at times. There is so much more to these folks beyond this message board, and again, I am confident you know that.

[flo1151]

matt,

speak for yourself. There really isn't much more to me except I am an excellent fisherman. I have actually won tournaments and money. Bet you didn't know that. Dust I do think these folks are right and also you may be right. You may be right in that you didn't have some of the abuse that we either received or delivered in Maranatha. But the same abuses are continuing in the name of God and Christianity and that is what riles me. I have been out of Maranatha over 15 years and some here much longer and yet we find ourself posting on this blog. Not because we are hurt or mad(maybe a little) but because we want it to stop. I continue because I have found some people who as Lab says have been in the trenches with me. It is encouraging to hear from them and to see they have made a good transition.

For those who have more recently left EN there isn't the same espiritdecorp because maybe the abuse wasn't as bad or because there hasn't been enough time after leaving. I just want you to know I think you are very sincere in your faith and you have nothing to be sad or ashamed of in your writing here or sharing of your experiences.

As far as Rice goes when he was coming up through the ranks I always thought he got just as much abuse as everyone else. Bob W was always pitting Rice against Nick Pappis and vice versa. Rice in his youth was a very likable guy who I never took too seriously. However he can evidently put together a network of people. I know I have posted in the past a couple of stories about Rice and Jody in their youger days that showed some of their good traits.

flo

[matt_hatter]

"There really isn't much more to me except I am an excellent fisherman. I have actually won tournaments and money."

Wow, didn't know that flo. Fresh water or salt water? Me? Tried the tourney thing once, became too much like work. Now I am a puddle jumper with three eight+ lbs caught and released and one 10, also caught and released.

I will tell you a quick Miltie story---am still P.O.'d over this one. Dude knows next to nothing about fishing, has a beat up rapala with rusty trebles tied to a zebco outfit with the original sorry line on it. Me? Top of the line stuff, change the line frequently, etc. He lands an 8lb bass, the little boat went around in 5 circles before he got him in. Luck of the Irish? More like luck of the Miltie. Just follows him wherever he goes.

Good dad, though, prays for favor each morning when he and his son head out to work. Truth is, it IS God's favor, no luck needed.

[miltietoast]

mattie you omitted two other details
1.the rapala was tied on the year before when we fished "old goat slough"
2. my drag setting had fallen off-fortunately it was set just right
now I go Canada every year and go catching

[matt_hatter]

Miltie, shut up.

[flo1151]

matt,

saltwater mostly these days. Grouper,snapper kingfish. It is a lot of pressure in a tournament would not like to do that on a regular basis. I am like the clint eastwood character in unforgiven. "I have always been lucky at killin folk" Me "I have always been lucky at catchin fish". The most $ I won was 2500 dollars in steinhatchee fl. We caught 39 keeper grouper in one day. Our 5 fish bag weighed 129lbs. And our largest fish weighed 36 lbs. which I caught.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lame.gif

this has a lot to do with this thread I know.

We gave a lot of the catch to a baptist church down there for there building fund. The church sponsored the tournament. Kinda weird. They then either gave the fish to needy families or sold it to local restaurants.

[matt_hatter]

Nice story flo. Would love to do some salt water stuff, would love to tie into some amberjack and bring a cooler full of filets home for the AllieCat, her favorite fish, grilled of course.

[miltietoast]

mattie and flo let's meet up in appalachacola,fl. I still have my rusty rapala

[miltietoast]

Dillon, I've wanting to tell you for a long time, I love your work, and wish I could afford you.

dilly the columbia tn gigalo

[lablady2]

I love to fish. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[lablady2]

Sorry, dust, off topic. I really will try to respect the integrity of your threads. It's just easy to veer off.....

[flo1151]

I can do appalachacola. Matt, I have a great fish dip I make with smoked amberjack. Fresh amberjack grilled is hard to beat unless it is fresh grilled kingfish.

[flo1151]

I am pondering fishing now.

[matt_hatter]

flo: "But the same abuses are continuing in the name of God and Christianity and that is what riles me."

And back to the subject at hand, how have I progressed? This may be a dichotomy, but I have more faith in God, but am somewhat wary of the ones delivering the messages. I don't know if that is progress, but, for example, I look on TV preaching with a very jaded eye, as I still see new blooms still coming forth from a theology rooted in some of the most self centered, self pleasuring theology that has ever existed in the history of Christianity. WoF, although different from MCM/EN, all share that elitism that puts them at the center of the universe.

My progress has been that He is at the center, and I can see Him in unconventional ways, not according to some prescription from a brainless workbook.

He has always done this, it is just the fact that I am starting to see it more. Jesus was about as unconventional as they come.

[flo1151]

matt.

When I was poor and recently out of pastoring in Texas. I needed some money for groceries. I wrote different faith ministries that I knew. Not one sent a cent. Kenneth Copeland sent a tape series. I sold it in a garage sale.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

[matt_hatter]

It is interesting, flo, stuff like that tended to give me an excuse to shelve my friendship with God, for years, to be honest. I find it refreshing to see so many of us come to the realization the HE wasn't to blame. If the whole Christian world goes TBN on me, it won't matter to me now. I've got a taste of His grace.

[miltietoast]

appalachacola in Nov ,sorry dust this is really important-- fishers of fish

[matt_hatter]

Back in the good oyster months, Miltie, months ending in an "R" --or is it with an "R" in the spelling?

[flo1151]

I have also wanted to go to Venice La to fish with Peace Marvel for tuna. I was scheduled to go once but the weather turned bad. I don't know if it has been rebuilt since Katrina.

[wisedove]

Hi, all. Dust, I resurrected this thread that didn't get a response when you first posted it over 2 months ago, and look what happens!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

I understand how you felt sad that this ended up being mixed with bunny-thread material (look at it this way, where else on factnet does the phrase "bunny-thread" exist but here?) As I read down from the top, and caught up, I understood both sides. I know these guys can't help themselves sometimes and I have come to learn that it doesn't take much to get them going off track, but honestly, I am smiling right now because I see an odd-family.

Bringing things back to the original thread topic (truly, it might take a little extra time and effort on our parts, but we can hop on over to the trail for off-the-wall communication with each other, just out of respect for the more serious threads) but I want to say that I have progressed in the area of trust in the Lord. I am also enjoying the liberty of being able to go to any church outside of EN, for when doing so while attending, we were told we were stepping out of their covering. It is nice to be free.

[flo1151]

That's why I have no pets. You come home from a hard day's work ready to relax and what's all over the flo bunny pellets.

[miltietoast]

and eight baby bunnies

[forword]

Hello all...
I really do understand and appreciate the re-union of all the exMCM folks. It has been fun to watch and I think it is great! There is certainly nothing wrong with any of your communication on this board, in and of itself. Please let me try to explain where I am coming from...and please be patient as this will be lengthy.

When I was first beginning to have my doubts about Bethel (Nashville’s local EN church and home of Rice Broocks), someone pointed me to the FactNet. At first glance, I thought it was just the rantings of some bitter people with an axe to grind. I blew it off...for a while. But, as more things happened, I kept going back and reading more. I begin to see truth in the postings of people such as Brick, ULYanke, Bill Mack, and others. Their testimonies helped me to take the blinders off my eyes and see the truth of what I was a part of. The FactNet served an important role in my escaping Bethel and EN.

After making my escape, there was much spiritual confusion. Some of the things I read on FactNet from others who had left really helped me to find healing. I begin running into others who had left Bethel. Some of them were in other churches already. Some left God altogether because of the abuse suffered at the hands of EN leadership. Many of these wounded people were finding help and healing on FactNet. (BTW, most of them were lurkers, not posters)

After being a lurker myself, I started posting, for the sole purpose of helping those who were still deceived to see the truth. I was very concerned about my postings because I knew many were reading. I knew that God would hold me accountable for every word. Sometimes it was a real battle with with my flesh when an EN defender would start posting, and sometimes my flesh won because I was hurt and angry. When that happened, I would repent and try to move forward with mercy and grace. But I considered very post vitally important because there were many lurking who were still deceived by EN, but were sensing something was wrong...and FactNet was their lifeline.

I still have friends in EN. I have friends that are EN pastors and ex-EN pastors. I was hearing through different people I knew who were in various levels of leadership that almost all the pastors were reading FactNet. They would meet together at a pastors house and FactNet would be the topic. This board was making a difference. It was because of the FactNet that many scandals became public knowledge. It was because of FactNet that many members who had been kept in the dark by EN leadership were finding the truth about EN and were leaving.

It was during this time that Tik started his Blog. It opened many people’s eyes to the true roots of Every Nation. EN leadership was freaking out. Churches started pulling out of EN, largely because of what was being exposed by Tik and FactNet. It was exciting to me, because I knew that many people were still being hurt by EN’s controlling practices and I wanted EN exposed so that the abuse would stop.

To be continued...

[forword]

...continued from previous post.
Although there were many ex-Maranatha people on the board this entire time, once Tik’s blog got going, they started coming out of the woodwork. I know for myself, It was actually fun and exciting to see old relationships being renewed on the board as more and more ex-Maranatha folks we were reading about showed up on the board. It was interesting hearing all the stories from 20 years ago because I could relate to them.... I begin to see that EN was just a new verse of the same old song.

However, somewhere along the way, the tone of the board began to change from a serious discussion of issues to a big Frat party.

(Now, let me stop right here and make a comment. I know that what I just said makes me sound like a humorless, hyper-religious, stick in the mud, cartoon christian. Dust can tell you, nothing could be further from the truth. It just that there is a time and a place for everything.)

At first it felt like a big party and I wanted to be a part of it. However, the serious discussions were being over-run by the meaningless banter. Even though the bunny threads were started to try to keep the serious separated from the seriously inane, the joking, name-calling and general nonsense began taking over the whole board. It seemed to really get bad with the appearance of Krems. He pushed a lot of folks buttons, mine included. The last thing we wanted to hear was someone defending WOF doctrine which I think reminded us too much of what we ourselves sounded like in the past. Our reactions (mine included) were vicious.

Then I begin to notice that the new posters that had been showing up on a regular basis just stopped coming. Many of the most valuable posters just went away. EN leadership stopped reading FactNet because it was no longer relevant. This board was losing its voice, its validity, its very reason for existing. When I realized what was happening, it made me sick because we were wasting a valuable tool, squandering a gift that we had been given to make a difference. Flo, in his post #328 above wrote the following...

...But the same abuses are continuing in the name of God and Christianity and that is what riles me. I have been out of Maranatha over 15 years and some here much longer and yet we find ourself posting on this blog. Not because we are hurt or mad(maybe a little) but because we want it to stop...

Amen!

To be continued.....

[forword]

...continued from previous post.
I tried to point out my concern in my post #74 on July 19th of this year. Even though my post clearly stated that everyone was free to do as they wished and that I was just making an appeal for prayerful consideration of our words and the effect they were having, I was pounced on, called names and made fun of. All of the sudden, it was bad to be serious...if you were not hopping on the bunny trail, you were called religious. If you quoted a scripture, you were a bible-thumper. What had happened to the board?...just a few months before, all these things were acceptable, now they were anathema. Everyone seemed to think I was trying to control things or tell people what they could and could not do. That was not my intension. I simply did not understand the change that had taken place and did not like what was happening to the board.

My problem is this...this board has been largely been turned into a chat room for ex-MCMers. Now, there is nothing wrong with chat rooms per se. Though they are not my style, I have no problems with folks taking part in a chat room. But, that is not what this board was before it was taken over by the ex-MCM folks. This board was serving a vital purpose for those considering leaving EN churches, who were trying to sort out the faulty doctrines they had been taught from the pulpit and ENLI, It was a place where those seeking to find out more about EN and its practices could find valuable information to help them make informed decisions. It was a place for those who recently left EN churches to find comfort and healing and to wrestle with the faulty teachings...to wrestle with the scriptures to find truth.

This has been all but lost. I pity the person who finds their way to this board now, if they were confused before, this board is only going to add to their confusion. The majority of the postings are inane, mindless drivel with no real value. Anyone wanting to seriously discuss Christian issues are pounced on and called judgmental or religious. Any valuable information regarding EN is so over-run by the bunny-stuff, it is nearly impossible to find. That is why the new people have stopped coming. That is why this board has lost its voice, its relevance, its purpose. It is become just another mindless chat room for people to talk about whatever comes to their mind.

I propose that there be a separation of the threads at the top level. There needs to be a folder of boards dedicated to the ex-MCM people to re-connect and discuss whatever their heart desires. Then, there needs to be a separate folder of boards dedicated to the discussion of current EN issues for those thinking about leaving or who have recently left. Since these 2 groups are obviously at cross-purposes and get on each others nerves, this separation would solve many problems. Those offended by Christians seeking to find truth in the scriptures could stay off the EN board. Those with no interest in reading about spanking monkeys, rolling rocks, and clacker-holes could stay off the bunny-boards. Anyone trying to make serious post on the bunny boards could be identified as a trouble maker and flamed at will. Likewise, anyone trying to hi-jack the EN boards with crass or irrelevant comments would also be identified as a trouble maker and flamed at will. Hopefully, though, we could respect each others wishes and simply stay out of each others way.

[cupatea]

Forward - thank you for this. You have put into words how I have felt for a while and the reasons why I only casually glance at FACTNet occassionally these days. Your comments about Krems and his pushing buttons, as well as some of our repsonses (mine included) were spot on. Not all of us on this board are from the USA and I thought maybe I was just losing something in cultural translation. But I guess I am not the only one. Unfortunately these days what I find useful and what I can pass on to others gets lost in the froth and bubble. I'm sorry if this post offends anyone but I'm with forward on this one.

[speakword2004]

Hear hear!!
I think that Forword's post makes good sense. Thank you for saying what some of us have been thinking.

I am all for the bunny trails and monkey business, but let's not be a impede to people accessing important and helpful information etc.

[40days40years]

sounds good but how do we get Bill and lc_20 and many others to come back?

[speakword2004]

Cupatea

Would you be open to dialogue with me?

ruffledfur1@yahoo.co.uk

[speakword2004]

Cupatea

Would you be open to dialogue with me?

ruffledfur1@yahoo.co.uk

[forword]

...how do we get Bill and lc_20 and many others to come back?

Build it, and they will come

[matt_hatter]

Forward and dust: as you must have stayed up late plotting to take back the reigns of factnet from the heathens, I will make it easy for you. You don't have to worry about me engaging either one of you anymore. Create your threads, and I will be sure to avoid them. Kind of like the one you made for commentary on Bill Mack. Let's see...one post...yours. I would ask for the same respect, wherever I post. For that, we can agree.

I will say your "build it and they will come" comment is classic bunny trail stuff. I cannot believe this level of drama over a message board. It is only topped by your level of self-aggrandizement. Good grief Charlie Brown. Any reply will not be answered. You have dealt with one of your problems, so celebrate!!!

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All,
Yes, Thank you Forward, well written thoughtful posts. I am so thrilled to hear that Factnet has been helpful. More than once I felt that someone would read what I wrote that it was from His hand.

True enough there was been some coarse jesting, etc. Most of the time, it is over my head, but I can see that it could cause some harm. I have to believe that God can reach them. It was like that until I could see clearly. Hopefully, bunny trials, etc won't bleed into other threads. Thank Dust , also for her love and care.}

[dust]

There was no plot. I didn't even know Forword was posting. And, I tell the truth on this.

Did you not hear anything Forword said.....a genuine compromise.

What about the others who AGREED with him? He didn't talk to them ahead....there's no plot.

[wisedove]

simmer-down....everyone simmmer-down...
I agree with Forward myself on this one, and I speak as one who at one point only came here for the bunny stuff after a while. Now, I see the necessity of trying to keep it separate. We keep going around this mountain...I think it boils down to respect.

Forward, thank you for re-voicing concerns about the board and what the original intent for this board started by Bill and Ulyankee etc. was really created for. As someone who found revelation in pretty strong information reguarding the ministry that my former church was formerly a part of...and as someone who participates in the bunny stuff myself as part of healing wounds other than the ones incurred at my church, I see the usefulness of both. That's why i suggested above to try to respectfully keep things separate.

[dust]

Matt: I cannot believe this level of drama over a message board.

Dust: Well that's because you've been out of it for 25 years and it had no real affect on you. This makes my point. There are real people right now as we speak scourged from Every Nation. So you know it is a big deal. Because this board was very life giving for me and if I would enter now, I can't say I would say the same thing.

As far as Bill Mack, he does have his friends and I'm one of them. No one touched the post...that's okay...maybe it wasn't there for response but for a little protection of him. He's not in his best place right now and I know him, and I"m sensitive to that. He needs our love and our prayers in a very desperate way.
So maybe that little single post is a reminder that we hold the broken in our arms.

[forword]

Matt, thank you, but....
did you not hear a thing that I said?!? This is not about control or self-aggrandizement.

This board was serving an important role in exposing a dangerous cult. To you it may be just a message board, but to others it is a life line....maybe the only link to reality they have.

Build it and they will come... this was a serious comment. If we build back a serious discusion of EN issues, I believe the serious posters and lurkers will return.

[speakword2004]

Some of us feel we have a more direct than obtuse role to play in this whole thing. A serious discussion on WOF healing degenerated into nonsense. Yes, we can have our differences and we can respectfully disagree and yes, spirituality is messy. Yet, I sometimes see the bunny trails paused with incredible gems or nuggets too easily not spotted and I wish Jones or Matt or Dilly et al would write them down in a book I could put under my pillow and somehow absorb through my thick skull. But as to the rest . . . gets a bit too much.

[j2theperson]

I understand the desire to start having more serious discussions here again, and I agree that would be cool. However, I wonder how many times a group of people can talk about the same subject before they start degenerating into small talk. We've had basically the same discussion with Krems God knows how many times since he first arrived here. Discussing WOF doctrine and the problems inherent within it is good and intellectually stimulating...discussing WOF doctrine and the problems inherent within it for the hundreth time with an irrational, ignorant, and immature person who basically makes his arguments by fiat...is boring.

And, is there really anything going on in EN right now? They've had their big scandals, they've changed their name, they've reorganized, and all of that we've discussed as it happened. Now it seems like things are relatively calm. I'd like to have serious discussions about Every Nation (and I have recently (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/25025.html?1161008384#POST347526) commented seriously (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/25025.html?1161008384#POST347585) on my experience), but since there doesn't seem to be a lot going on in EN right now it seems like we might just end up rehashing conversations that have already taken place. There's nothing wrong with repeating ourselves and I'm up for it, but conversational rechauffe does easily lead to small talk and silliness.

[forword]

We do not need to tiptoe on egg shells, and we certainly should not be humorless. Lets just be sensitive to the purpose of the board and the topic of the particular thread. I for one am not just sitting here waiting to pounce on the first comment that is slightly off topic or silly. Things just went to far.

If you think things are quiet at EN, think again. They are building a new church a few good rock throws from my home. As ULYankee informed us recenlty if you happened to see her post, they are in a capitol raising campaign for this effort. There is still news being reported, it has just been lost in the shuffle. And, I am certain there are others with news that they would be posting if this was still a relevant place to post such things.

That is all I wish to accomplish... to make this a place that is once again relevant to the purpose of this site...exposing dangerous cults.

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Forward: If you think things are quiet at EN, think again. They are building a new church a few good rock throws from my home. As ULYankee informed us recenlty if you happened to see her post, they are in a capitol raising campaign for this effort. There is still news being reported, it has just been lost in the shuffle.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I did read that, and I have also read all that Ginger has posted about Bernard Marquez and the Alabang church, all of which I find quite interesting. As far as posting goes, however, I'm happy to spend most of my time in the bunny trails and only post in the more serious threads when I think I have something to say. But, if you really want to get some serious discussions going why don't you comment on the latest EN news (particularly given that it's taking place in your neck of the woods?)? Why don't you get the sort of discussions you want started?

And also, could everybody just start ignoring Krems? For real. We've talked about WOF ad nauseam, and at this point I don't see anything good coming from the discussions with him.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi All-Catching Up

J2- I think that the point about WOF stuff, it may be re-hashed a bit but to those looking in, it may be news to them. Forward reported that that was occurring, so it is not for us but those still caught. Discussion like this helped me a great deal when I came here first, so I know how it feels, and how frightened one can be about offending God just by looking here.}

[dust]

Coppertree: how frightened one can be about offending God just by looking here.}

Dust: Thank you for bringing that up. I was so scared to even LOOK here at first, yet alone post. I was given some print outs of factnet and wouldn't even read it...threw in trash...then I wen to the trash and retreived...started reading...All this fear came up, am I contributing to gossip, to tearing down, etc. So, I would go back and forth..Factnet is good, factnet is bad....

COGNITIVE DISSONANCE: If I start to see ALL the ugly truth, then I'm going to have to make a decision. I'm STILL in Every Nation at this point and still for several more months!

I LURKED FOR YEAR: TOO scared to write...and I tiptoed...so I know there is a "lurking" stage..finally I post and I get mistaken for a man. I was so happy about that because I was intimidated that my identity would be revealed. So I kept up the MALE thing, just being careful to not use words like my husband.

THEN another 8 months later and I start making friends...relationships...now I can't let the male thing continue...I have to get real. It was freeing to be real.

My point: all this sounds silly until you're in it. And, especially if you live in Nashville and these people have meant something to you..... To this day, I still dream about Bethel, still miss the relationships t that I don't get to see on Sunday. Sometimes I dream I'm back there and it feels like a good dream. I know it wouldn't be though.....

There is a POWER that a church body has and there is a process in pulling away.

[speakword2004]

Sometimes the past 14 years feel like a bad dream.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Forward,

I agree about watching En, to see what is up next. I have a friend at Belmont, I asked this person about En. They say that they, Bethel had trouble but they changed that things are different now.That is the word on the street.}

[dust]

Matt: to take back the reigns of factnet from the heathens,

Dust: we hold no reign...never did, Together we don't have almost 1500 posts as you do in 5 months.

Last I looked Forword posted 117 posts in 10 months, so GIVE ME A BREAK about trying to REIGN on the board.

It all goes back to a simple request of his to keep respectful separation. You have turned it into something that we have no sense of humor and we don't understand the joy of living.

Forword wakes up happy every morning. It can get on my nerves he's so happy. He never loses his temper...and in all my married years, he has never been in a confrontrational situation like this on Factnet.

This reminds me of a concept that we should never stop at a red light. Everyone wants to drive but all lights should be green. Well if both lights are green, there's eventually going to be a crash. So someone suggests "hey let's make a red light."

People say a red light would prevent accidents. And, then someone says. RED LIGHT. You're taking my freedom...why should I have to stop at a red light. Well, people who want to put in a red light...they want to take over...soon no one will be able to drive. No No that's not it....Everyone can drive. It's just that this way everyone gets to live.

[vanguard]

Me - 18 years of bad dream.

[dust]

Speak, Ginger ( some people will say Who's ginger? She vanguard.

All those years you two spent in the ministry....you've seen it all.

Speak, what is your position now on where to go with all this as far as EN stuff.....do you feel frustrated that they just keep on keeping on?

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Coppertree: I think that the point about WOF stuff, it may be re-hashed a bit but to those looking in, it may be news to them. Forward reported that that was occurring, so it is not for us but those still caught. Discussion like this helped me a great deal when I came here first, so I know how it feels, and how frightened one can be about offending God just by looking here.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I agree that discussing WOF doctrine can be helpful and eye-opening. However, I don't think discussing it with Krems is beneficial. This is supposed to be a message board devoted to MCM, Morning Star, and Every Nation; Krems, by his own admission, is not and has not been involved in any of those ministries, and, correct me if I'm wrong, EN does not strictly identify itself as a WOF church. Any EN member who comes here can dismiss the arguments we have with him by saying to themselves "He's not EN; EN's beliefs about faith and healing are not the same as his positions. Therefore, the fact that people have proved him wrong does not affect me--they've proved Krems wrong, not EN theology." He's an aggrevating, polarizing troll, and I strongly suggest that one of the things that would improve the focus and spirit of this board is if we all just ignored him from now on. You want to start focusing seriously on EN again--great; Krems is not a member of EN and has nothing to do with it.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi J2,
I understand what you are saying but as it took a bit for me to see WOF and it's inherent problems. Perhaps this could happen to others also. Hopefully,this can be exposed to on looking readers. All this brought me a point where I wondered if he well may be someone's beard, or a monster from our collective id. He is the perfect foil. As he says his WOF thoughts ; people here try to help his thinking , for example the discussion about using the scriptures without a twist. It is a little like Paul going to engage the thinkers of Mars Hill.

And WOF is in En greatly.}

[j2theperson]

I get what you're saying, Copper, but when is it appropriate to finally say "enough is enough"?
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

And WOF is in En greatly.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I know that; however, EN doesn't actually identify itself as WOF does it? I seem to recall them sort of dancing around that issue.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi J2
Thank you for your post. As En doesn't identify itself as WOF, that is why the details are good and needed, so people can see, and think for themselves. It will sink in, I took me a while to quite get the whole picture, and I had a relationship with Him. That is the hard part in all of this, that God meets people in this group. It is Him going beyond the reach of men to touch His very own.}

[j2theperson]

Another concern I have about continued debating with Krems is that we're spending an excessive ammount of our energy debating his name-it-claim-it theology. However, there is a lot more wrong with EN than just the prosperity doctrine they espouse--but those things seem to have been pushed very much to the side while the debate about healing and prosperity has been center stage for months.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi J2
Thank you for post. I agree that that thread has been done. Maybe , we could come up with some of your concerns and start a new thread on that basis. People would be free to add in their thoughts. This is a new idea to me that people are watching, and are interested, which I am thankful for.
I still remember the striving to measure up, and the times when the Holy Spirit departed the corporate meetings.}}

[wildwood_]

Hey J2&amp; Copper...interesting ideas. I know very little about EN but I am willing to learn. I do know something that stands for the Lord when I heard it or see it though! Part of me believes that enough can't be enough because if that is a limit...then how many individuals might that apply to??? Why, just on that basis, there might not be a sound reason to continue discussions of En... Still..a Wary Heart and a Merry Heart are not mutually exclusive...and at some point the wheel can no longer be reinvented...

There are some amazingly kind and heart-felt posts on this thread and some that are a bit more stressful. My prayer is that all that occured is now gone and in the past and now we move ahead and rejoice in this wonderful tool that God has blessed us so abundantly with. Hatter I hope to see your wisdom on each thread, I'd miss it if it wasn't there... But I've always been more of a "We" kinda gal than an "us" or "them".... And "WE" Christians make a very nice quilt that keeps me warm in the winter (and I HATE being cold...so keep your square available please) I'm mentioned this somewhere already tonight. We all need each other...the exclusions, the group over here or over there...well, that was something that MCM, and EN seemed to delight in having...walls &amp; sections. I provide fair warning to all here...I am a wall walker and I will seek and find those who love Jesus.... I just cannot help myself...and I'm not trying to anyway....http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif

[miltietoast]

forward your post has some merit with me.I will try to keep the bunny droppings contained. I used to raise rabbits and they actually pick one corner of the cage to do their business.

How do you know that peoplearetuning in and out?

[forword]

Thanks Miltie. I guess there are things to learn from the bunnies. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Miltie: How do you know that people are tuning in and out?

All you have to do is go back through some of the older threads and see the names of the poeple who had been regular contributors who have gone away. You will also notice how many new people used to show up on a regular basis. That seldom happens now. There are also lurkers that have communicated with me that are no longer lurking for all the reasons previously stated.

[40days40years]

forward said: This board was serving an important role in exposing a dangerous cult. To you it may be just a message board, but to others it is a life line....maybe the only link to reality they have.

40: I agree we got to save this thing. You know Dust talked about being afraid to post. I started posting about 1 year a go. I was kind of afraid to post then and I came from a light weight Maranatha and left in the late 80's.

These leaders walk around like little Gods in EN. Now the oldest generation here were not afraid because you remember Rice and company as just being some dufus or one of your own or a guy that would try to foul you on the basketball court. To those who come later the leaders of EN are mighty men of God that you better not offend. If a miracle happens in EN or they think it happened, it will automatically confirm in the minds of the young ones who witness it that these people and leaders are from God. How can the younger generation find the lifeline if it is buried under huge volumes of gibberish? Uly and Bill had a purpose for this place. Usually the debate revolved around reform or destroy. We have to be fair to the younger generation who is afraid.

It is real easy to go to a place like this (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.ex-cult?lnk=sg) and start a new ex-Marantha/EN group. You can moderate it or not, its free.

[40days40years]

Don't get me wrong old MCM'ers I like you guys but I don't want to see the board die.

[speakword2004]

I think in some sectors there is serious leadership idolatory and hero worship on a scale you just did not see in MCM. Rice and Co. are not little Weiners in the way that they may have been 20 years ago. The ministry is slick, polished and professional and there is much to detract people from the simplicity and reality of Christianity.

[40days40years]

speakword you are right but there was still worship of Rice and Ball back in the good old days. Guilty but not of Rice.