EN Innsbruck responds to FactNet 17 august 06

[philiprosenthal]

Please find link to a letter about FactNet from EN Innsbruck, Austria, with a crude internet translation.
http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=documents&thread=11 57022690&page=1

Would be interested in comments.

[robert_unknown]

yes - i didnt get it. i never het anything. but i got it from a FactNet reader.

The church here is basically led by one person and his wife. only recently they took 2 other people into leadership. things develope downwards here from their point of view, therefore i understand the reaction. i wonder if he doesnt know the facts or if he just doesnt want to see them.

[speakword2004]

Here's my Wrap-up for an apostle :

He's just an temple employee with a degree
in stupidity
He's just a super-apostle with a million nothings
to send
Trading human souls as a commodity
stuck between la-la land and reality
hiding behind another bend
in apostolic and cultic Hegemony

[lablady2]

Reading the letter reminds me of the Swedish/German chef character on the Muppets. I never could understand him either.

[speakword2004]

I sais the same thing on another thread! Did you copy that?

[matt_hatter]

"This platform is used of some frustierten of former
Maranathamitgliedern (quaked Weiner was the leader and has nothing with EN
to do, aufier that some EN-pastors friiher in Marantha were, before the
apart breach) and of some former, enttauschten members of Morningstar/EN."

Wow, I am an embittered soul influence by Satan. And Weiner has nothing to do with EN. My deception, it seems, is complete. Thank you Swedish chef for opening my eyes! Well, kick my clacker and call me a Swedish Meatball!...or a cab--(thanks Jackie Mason--how about that LL, Catskills, Here I Come Tour 2006)
Matt Steinburg

[ulyankee]

Philip, do you know who this was originally sent to? Pastors, congregants, both? Was it sent via email, on a website, printed pamphlet, etc.?

[robert_unknown]

it was sent this week to all the congregants.
the funny thing is, that the congregants dont get the communiques, nor are they informed about anything.
they do, until today, NOT know that phil bonasso and rice brooks are not in the apostolic leadership anylonger...!

[robert_unknown]

basicaly the paper says this:

there have been questions, and he doesnt want that rumors get spread.

in Factnet are former Maranatha memebrs (bob weiner has nothing to do with EN, there have only been some pastors part of MCM before) and people who are not part of EN who are all frustrated. They bring up bad critisism which is in the best case misinterpretations of things and in the worst case they are untruth.

He is sorry that people got hurt. but no mopvement ins perfect as no person is perfect.

but this form of communication is not biblical.

it is also a fact that there are some people who never are happy with something, and who use this platform for let hteir frustrations and anger go.

the biblical way should be to talk with the leadership about concerns.

one example:
all donations at MPD get written into the books as "mission" on the income sid, but at the expesne side they get written as salaries. this gets interpreted by people at factnet that money for mission gets into the salaries of churchworkers.

the main problems seem to be in the churches in america, but this does not mean that the whole movement has a problem or that the church in innsbruck has problems (LOL).

he says he knows that there have happened wrong zthings and that there will happen wrong things, but it is impossible to avoid this in a worldwide movement.

there have been issiues in americvan churches where money was not used wisely. intependend companies (the audit) have chécked everything and corrected it. some money was payed back, other salaries have been reduced.

the way how the leadership delt with this problems and transparency that they showed in this was a big confirmation for him, that we are on the right way. the humility and the transparency of how it was delt with brought much blessing. we will not avoid mistakes in future, but this case has been mastered greatly by our leadership.

the answer on why rice brooks steped back from leadership is easy to answer. he thinks steve murell is better for the job. rice wnats to concentrate more on evangelism and on building a nework.

.... to be continued. hacve to go.

[lablady2]

speak: You talkin' to me? No, I didn't copy it. That's too funny. Great minds....know their muppets!

[j2theperson]

I like how he said he thought it was unbiblical to discuss our grievances on an internet message board. (And when I say "I like" I mean "I roll my eyes at".) I suspect he's just saying that because he is intimidated by the internet and the communication freedom it offers. The internet is here to stay and religious leaders are just going to have accept that reality--just like religious leaders of the past had to accept the printing press. Past leaders had to face the fact that Bibles were now easily accessible to the common man. Current leaders are going to have to face the fact that communication is now easily accessible to the common man.

[robert_unknown]

this guys realy live in the deception that THEY can control what the common churchmembers talk and think? funny bunnies. must be frustrating, when reality hits badly...

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi All
I thank God for the net, if we had this ; perhaps these problems would not be here in our faces. It is those babes in Him, that I worry about now. I hope that they have eyes to see and ears to hear, and no be worried about their position in this group. It looks good but is full of old bones. As my Grandmother would say, a dry bone. I think of the clouds without rain.}

[dust]

Copper
I was working out today and at the cool off, I was thinking how grateful I am for Fact Net. It has STRETCHED me to search for truth, and has BLESSED me with friendships. Did you ever have one of those days where you feel really grateful for this site?

Dove and I talked today....we will be praying tomorrow together and every week. We have wrestled with our writing here, but in the end it's what I am called to do. And, I also believe I am called to be joined with you all. Well Lord have mercy. I'm in.

[ginger1]

Robert, we did talk to the leadership for the last 20 years ??? Nothing happened. Factnet is the last resort. He may not like it, too bad.

I guess to him Martin Luther is full of demons also because he confronted the church of his days.

[mdillon]

<font size="+1">shhh! pipe down everybody!!</font> i dialed 1-800-TALKTOYOURLEADERS and Ricey picked up!!!!! he put me on hold, though, said he'd be right back!!!!! wow!!! I can't BELIEVE its really HIM!!!!! He said he REALLY missed me!!! And I know he meant it, because he called me CHAMP!!! just like old times. haha, wow, I can't wait to........

hello?......what?......yes, I HAVE been holding......since when? ummm I dunno, maybe last Friday?......what?....my call will be taken in order received...ok......there's a waiting list? ok........you've got to be kidding, right?.....you mean to tell me i won't get on to talk to him until 2017? There's THAT many people????? BUT HE CALLED ME CHAMP!!!! HE KNOWS WHO I AM!!! I AM CHAMP, YOU IDIOT....PLEASE JUST LET ME.......hello......hello.......

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi All
Dove- Yes, my thought also, I said this on thread and another , how thankful !! And for you, Dust, Forward and Dove, and others, thank you for your prayers and input. It is not easy to be on the front lines, but we have Matt, Mdillion, Milite, 1984, and 78. Robert comes from Europe in the nick of time a few monthes ago. JRJones, flo, Speakword and others besides Ul, Bill M and Ginger who helped get this going. JTH2, JIA and wideawake with jack b,, and others if I forgot any ( lab lady, sameo wildwood), nd ( 40/40 )forgive if I missed you ;you all have been a cup of cool water. Add in dazzala,on the road, pilgrim , youngmightky, Phil R.,and more. We are not alone.
}

[40days40years]

mdillon if you want to move up on the list to talk to Rice you have to go through channels. Heres the plan, take a few bucks out of your wifes purse and palm it to Phil B. (he has had a little pay cut recently)- the more you pay the higher Phil will be able to get you up on the list to talk to Rice.

Good Luck champ!

[mdillon]

40-take a few bucks out of your wifes purse and palm it to Phil B

hey 40, was it something I said? you trying to "help" me? when wifey finds out her money went to Phil (again) you will find my head on a pike at the Global Cafe as a cup dispenser.

dillyhiricey

[lablady2]

Would Jesus have a Norstar phone system if He walked the earth today? Bluetooth? 'Gator with rims? A network following him around? A set of Pings and a country club membership?

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi Robert,
It should be telling that , if this pastor posts a letter again. I think that the powers that be, will contain him greatly !! As they say down south ,hide and watch!}

[robert_unknown]

I have lost half of my church because I pressured them to walk the EN road... People are not stupid. Thanks God that I am not in ministry anylonger...

[speakword2004]

It's time to play the music
It's time to light the lights
It's time to meet the Muppets
On the Muppet Show tonight
It's time to put on makeup
It's time to dress up right
It's time to raise the curtain
On the Muppet Show tonight
(Kermit)
To introduce our guest star
Is what I'm here to do
So it really makes me happy
To introduce to you...
(Statler &amp; Waldorf) [optional verse]
Why do we always come here
I guess we'll never know
It's quite a kind of torture
To have to watch this show
(Cast)
And now let's things started
Why don't we get things started
It's time to get things started
On the most sensational, inspirational, celebrational, Muppetational
This is what we call the Muppet Show
[ Gonzo strikes a gong]

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Robert
You have a ministry here. And a welcome, one. At least you are not in the above post, Muppet show, with someone pulling our strings, or worse we would be a hand puppet !!}

[lablady2]

I still love the muppets. God knows I've been watching them for 31 years.

Swedish chef: Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue, Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn børk! børk! børk!",

[robert_unknown]

the answer on FactNet was because of ONE (!) email from a lady in the church!

[football7]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert, we did talk to the leadership for the last 20 years ??? Nothing happened. Factnet is the last resort. He may not like it, too bad.

Ditto, we tried" tried &amp; tried.The board is great, hopefully This letter. -- will only drive people Who have never heard to check it out to see what it's all about.

[philiprosenthal]

http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=documents&amp;action=display&amp;thread=11 57022690
Someone has kindly given us a proper human translation of the german factnet circular.

I argue the circular is misleading on the following points:
1) It says: "Furthermore the accusations in Factnet almost exclusively refer to churches in America."
Yes it is true there are more complaints about America, but criticisms have been posted from all over the world - all following similar themes.

2) It criticises the use of the internet and says rather : "The biblical way is assembling with the leadership of the church and talking about it and clarifying missunderstandings." Now this is exactly what I did during the period 2001 to 2006 in numerous meetings with the His People leadership. EveryNation leaders refused to answer correspondence. All I got in return was false counter allegations and threats to try manipulate the process. Thus it is the EveryNation leadership who are not following scripture. Matthew 18 says that if after following the procedure of private confrontation and confrontation with witnesses, then you go public and tell the church. THat is what I and others on FactNet have done. Therefore it is the His People /EveryNation leadership who have been unbiblical - not those challenging them. But I agree with the principle - the internet should not be a first resort for complaints and disputes between Christians.

3) If all this stuff on FActNet is just misunderstanding, then firstly why is some of it later admitted to and echoed in the EveryNation communiques?
http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=documents
Secondly, why don't the EveryNation leadership just publish their explanations of all these issues which have caused misunderstanding to clear it all up?

[youngnmighty]

the word biblical must be the most abused word in charismatic christianity...

*sigh* im glad im out of it

[mcmstaff78]

Young: the word biblical must be the most abused word in charismatic christianity...

Me: Ain't that the truth. Arius' (3rd Century and the first great heresy after the legalization of the Christian faith) argument was "biblical", i.e. he based it on the literal interpretation of a few scriptures, notably Psalm 2:7 and Acts 13:33. (Arius taught that God the Father and the Son were not co-eternal, but that Jesus was a created being - divine, but inferior to the Father). Greg Boyd teaches that God doesn't know the future, based on an overly literalistic interpretation of scripture. Finneas Dake (and some other Pentecostal folks) teach that God has a body, with hands, arms, etc., based on literal interpretations of certain scriptures. These are all "biblical", but they are not True.

[jonmoseley]

I think the most important part of the letter from Every Nation / Austria is the part that all of you conveniently ignored and sidestepped:

QUOTE:
The Factnet is an open discussion platform ... where everybody can write what he thinks WITHOUT VERIFYING THE FACTS IN ANY FORM. ... This platform is used by some frustrated former Maranatha members ....[snip] But also by PEOPLE WHO DO NOT KNOW WN and simply proclaim their personal opinion/perception to what they read in Factnet. What is characterized as facts there mostly is entirely unevaluated, is based upon missunderstandings or in the worst case upon untruths.
UNQUOTE

Nearly everything I have read here CLASHES with my personal experiences in Maranatha, Every Nation, and Morning Star.

I will accept that maybe you have experienced such things.

But I cannot accept that your bad experiences are anything other than ISOLATED exceptions to the norm, because I KNOW THAT I NEVER SAW THEM while in MCM or EN/MSI.

[dust]

know lots of leaders and even THEY AGREE with what the posters are posting...And even pastors associated with EN for a long time, who are distancing themselves.

We cannot go by our beliefs or personal experiences but only by
what is TRUTH. Seek truth you will find it.

But, we thank you for resurrecting a lot of old posts....and for a reminder of what we do here.

Peace and Blessings to you. I, too, was indignant when I first arrived upon Factnet. I didn't WANT TO BELIEVE, even though I already knew. It's unsettling to the spirit in a deep way. So, I pray that you will allow God to bring truth to you, but in a way you can see our hearts in this too.

If I get harsh with you, please forgive me...you are pressing some buttons here...for you are defending EN based on a single man's experiences...We come with many bodies behind us..

[robert_unknown]

Jon, whenever someone aproachs me like you do here now, I like to remember what Tom Sirotnak posted at ricks site already in 2004:
http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=742&amp;

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Hi Rick,
I sure appreciate your site and specially the little bit you have on Morning Star/Champions For Christ / Victory Campus Ministries. I was one of the top national leaders in all three of these groups, stationed at the University Of Southern California (I was a former Def. team Cpt. &amp; 10 year chaplain with the football team) and was known for producing thousands of converts over my 22 years with them. In fact, many of the men in top positions within these groups were my "disciple" and I had influenced dozens of others scattered through the NFL and NBA. We were formerly known as Maranatha Ministries until 1989 when it collapsed for many of the same reasons on the issues of misused views on Apostolic authority and methods of heavy handed discipleship. I also have to admit that I was one of the most guilty parties when it came to controlling and arrogance towards other ministries that we were taught were full of compromise. I began changing my views in the early 90's when I started traveling with a group of athletes known as The Power Team and began to be spiritually mentored by Dr. Edwin Louis Cole (Christian Men's Network &amp; Author of Maximized Manhood) I wanted to give you a little of my background to establish the fact that I was on the inside of these ministries and in fact, collaborated with the top leaders (Rice Broocks, Phil Bonasso, Greg Ball, Jim Lafoon) in the formation of their patterns and principles of ministry. I know these guys, I thought like them. I was fired (August, 2002) for standing up against their authoritarian views and for demanding that a number of men be held accountable for the damage they inflicted on hundreds. I do not believe that Morning Star is a flat out cult. There statement of faith is solid. But I do believe that they are a social cult for there application and philosophies of ministry and discipleship. The views Morning Star holds on Apostolic Authority, I believe, is a key structural error in the movement. They have some great people their but sadly they are misguided and despite the good things they produce (evangelism, world missions, leadership training) there is equal potential for great spiritual injury, bottled up potential and mental torment. For this reason, I stand opposed to all they do and would not want to see one person subjected to their ways. Recently two other pastors (Hawaii &amp; Michigan) in Morning Star have left due to some of these same complaints.
Most people in the movement even admit to the errors in ministry but are too afraid to stand up. Particularly, Stand up and hold Phil Bonasso accountable. Phil is Rice's best friend and remains unchallenged. The danger of Phil's influence, in my opinion, is that he influences and controls the Graduate School of Ministry for the organization. In other words, Every potential leader and aspiring evangelist or campus worker, MUST go through this School. It is here were they are infused with the spirit of the Apostolic Authority. Better stated, they are commissioned to pollute other campuses and churches by brining their yoke of slavery upon others.
In His Service,
Tom Sirotnak
S. E. N. D.
(Sirotnak Evangelistic Network &amp; Discipleship)
www.bigtommy.com (http://www.bigtommy.com) <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

and i remember all the people I know with the same concerns, experiences and frustrations. yes - a strategy against unhappy people is - in this kind of churches - the attempt to isolate them and to make them feel as if what they experienced is there fault and an isolated, single experience.

reality - however - is, that all to much people have had this "single and isolated65" experience ;)

(Message edited by robert_unknown on October 21, 2006)

[jonmoseley]

I think the most important part of the letter from Every Nation / Austria is the part that all of you conveniently ignored and sidestepped:

QUOTE:
The Factnet is an open discussion platform ... where everybody can write what he thinks WITHOUT VERIFYING THE FACTS IN ANY FORM. ... This platform is used by some frustrated former Maranatha members ....[snip] But also by PEOPLE WHO DO NOT KNOW WN and simply proclaim their personal opinion/perception to what they read in Factnet. What is characterized as facts there mostly is entirely unevaluated, is based upon missunderstandings or in the worst case upon untruths.
UNQUOTE

Nearly everything I have read here CLASHES with my personal experiences in Maranatha, Every Nation, and Morning Star.

I will accept that maybe you have experienced such things.

But I cannot accept that your bad experiences are anything other than ISOLATED exceptions to the norm, because I KNOW THAT I NEVER SAW THEM while in MCM or EN/MSI.

[jonmoseley]

I think the most important part of the letter from Every Nation / Austria is the part that all of you conveniently ignored and sidestepped:

QUOTE:
The Factnet is an open discussion platform ... where everybody can write what he thinks WITHOUT VERIFYING THE FACTS IN ANY FORM. ... This platform is used by some frustrated former Maranatha members ....[snip] But also by PEOPLE WHO DO NOT KNOW WN and simply proclaim their personal opinion/perception to what they read in Factnet. What is characterized as facts there mostly is entirely unevaluated, is based upon missunderstandings or in the worst case upon untruths.
UNQUOTE

Nearly everything I have read here CLASHES with my personal experiences in Maranatha, Every Nation, and Morning Star.

I will accept that maybe you have experienced such things.

But I cannot accept that your bad experiences are anything other than ISOLATED exceptions to the norm, because I KNOW THAT I NEVER SAW THEM while in MCM or EN/MSI.

[wiseasaserpentgentleasadove]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Nearly everything I have read here CLASHES with my personal experiences in Maranatha, Every Nation, and Morning Star.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I am not surprised when someone who is either

1. still in EN or 2. has recently left

makes a statement like that above. Part of being deceived is that you don't know it. + not everyone has a strong gift of discenment. I know and knew what i know by this very thing, discernment...and a keen awareness of the subtle changes that took place after our new church joined EN>

Funny, after staying and praying over 5 years for things to change, I decide to visit somewhere else, my husband likes it, and whamo, we are out. Just like that. Only to find out 2 weeks afterwards that our church also LEFT EN. Hmmm, I am still wondering why to this day (only a few months after this) they chose to leave. Were all of my perceptions/discernments correct ALL along? Have they, too, seen the light and the damage that takes place by being a part of this particular ministry?

To the majority of the people attending there to this day, they do not know about EN. It was wiped clear off the website and church history....WHY? Why be a part of a ministry HARD CORE for 5 years, and then POOF-there's no trace or record of this in your church history on the websites? HA...And, why after I prayed for this VERY thing to happen did God pull us out, only to let me find out 2 weeks later that my church was pulling out of EN SECRETLY?!!! hmmm.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi All-Catching up,
Well, Jon I have heard people say what you say before. Actually I said it myself. It was not until I went deeper into the leadership that I began to see things. I have reported these events here on these many threads. I hope that you get a chance to read, I hope that you can see, also.}

[jonmoseley]

I think the most important part of the letter from Every Nation / Austria is the part that all of you conveniently ignored and sidestepped:

QUOTE:
The Factnet is an open discussion platform ... where everybody can write what he thinks WITHOUT VERIFYING THE FACTS IN ANY FORM. ... This platform is used by some frustrated former Maranatha members ....[snip] But also by PEOPLE WHO DO NOT KNOW WN and simply proclaim their personal opinion/perception to what they read in Factnet. What is characterized as facts there mostly is entirely unevaluated, is based upon missunderstandings or in the worst case upon untruths.
UNQUOTE

Nearly everything I have read here CLASHES with my personal experiences in Maranatha, Every Nation, and Morning Star.

I will accept that maybe you have experienced such things.

But I cannot accept that your bad experiences are anything other than ISOLATED exceptions to the norm, because I KNOW THAT I NEVER SAW THEM while in MCM or EN/MSI.

[dust]

FROM FACTNET
Remember FACTNet Inc. treats all message postings on its message boards as the opinions of the message posters.

We draw the line when people try to "re-victimize" people who have left cults or toxic organizations. We do not abide by people who attempt to chase people off this discussion board by endless harassment. Culprits will be banned.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/FactLogoSmall.gif

[wisedove]

WHAT ARE YOU DOING REPEATING YOUR POSTS OVER AND OVER AGAIN.....WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO DO? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/FactLogoSmall.gif

[jonmoseley]

I think the most important part of the letter from Every Nation / Austria is the part that all of you conveniently ignored and sidestepped:

QUOTE:
The Factnet is an open discussion platform ... where everybody can write what he thinks WITHOUT VERIFYING THE FACTS IN ANY FORM. ... This platform is used by some frustrated former Maranatha members ....[snip] But also by PEOPLE WHO DO NOT KNOW WN and simply proclaim their personal opinion/perception to what they read in Factnet. What is characterized as facts there mostly is entirely unevaluated, is based upon missunderstandings or in the worst case upon untruths.
UNQUOTE

Nearly everything I have read here CLASHES with my personal experiences in Maranatha, Every Nation, and Morning Star.

I will accept that maybe you have experienced such things.

But I cannot accept that your bad experiences are anything other than ISOLATED exceptions to the norm, because I KNOW THAT I NEVER SAW THEM while in MCM or EN/MSI.

[wisedove]

Do you have a series of pre-written posts saved in Microsoft word or something, and are you just copying and pasting them all over this board? You posted the above post on this thread 3 different times. once at 11:19, then at 4:44, and then again at 5:29.

WHAT GIVES?

[jonmoseley]

On my end, the board is giving me error messages that the post was NOT SUCCESSFUL.

It seems that FraudNet is just as full of computer errors as the posts are full of spiritual errors.

SORRY for the multiple posts, but on my end the computer is telling me the post DID NOT GO THROUGH.

[wisedove]

that's funny, jon. You are the only one besides a friend who double-dips on purpose occasionally, as do some of us, that seems to have a problem here. Wonder why?

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Jon,
On the double posts, post, and then minimize your post message screen, look under the thread you wanted to been on, and you will see, that it indeed has occurred. This would be factual. This would be anecdotal evidence. This is what I think your view is, empirical, not consistent data.
}