Those on the outside

[out_of_the_blue (out_of_the_blue)]

Just a curious question - from an outsider desperately worried about my brother getting deeper into the inside - how do members of Every Nation view those outside of Every Nation? Especially those at other types of churches and family members and friends who are Christians.

Is it true that Every Nation members are told they are the only ones to be saved?

Trying to work out if my brother would listen if we tried to talk to him or whether he has been told outright that he is right and everyone else is wrong. He has tried to 'save' us but we have been too suspicious of Every Nation to become members, having watched and listened to him.

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

No it is not true that the EN church teaches that the only ones that are saved are members. Perhaps your brother is misguided or has misunderstood things or in his love and zeal to see you "saved" he has miscommunicated things.

If you are a Christian from a more traditional background it would be understandable that he perhaps wants you to experience a more practical and experiential form of Christianity.

Experiencing the salvation of Christ is indeed a wonderful and marvelous thing and not to be confused with a particular churches' methods of recruitment and evangelism. Your brother may just be trying to communicate the joy he has found in Christ and as his identity and maturity in Christ develops he may well be more able to separate his zeal for his church from his zeal for God.

There is no perfect church and he needs to understand that it is not his church that will save you, but rather Jesus Christ who is the head of his church. Coverting you to his church is perhaps his way of putting you in a place where he perceives and experiences God more then any other place and time in his life.

I don't think he will understand your concerns too well if you criticise his outward zeal. He may feel that you are anti- for whatever reason. He may also be the subject of poor discipleship or a lack of proper teaching for whatever reason.

I understand the European sector of EN to be more sensitive to family and parental concerns when it comes to these things. Perhaps you could ask him to set up a meeting where you can address your concerns with his pastor. If they refuse then you will have a better picture of his church and its particular attitude and if they agree then you will establish a dialogue that will take you further in your relationship with him.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

out-of-the-blue,
I agree with speakword. I didn't hear this taught directly from the pulpit. There are many comments like "a church alive is worth the drive" which imply that churches which dont make as much noice or raise their hands are dead spiritually. There is also the teachings on tongues as evidence of salvation that can make a new believer think that other churches are not saved. Every time a friend of mine left the church, I was told they were rebelling against the authority God had put over them and they were in sin. When I wanted out, someone told me they were praying for my salvation. So, the message may not be getting preached from the pulpit. But, there is a fear of being in a dead church or leaving the covering of the msi/en church. I do hope you brother sees it before he gets dragged in to far. Often times, with new young believers, they will tell them how much they care about them and of their great destiny and involve them in ministry opportunities with promises of great wealth. They appeal to pride and greed and acceptance as ways to get people to submit their life resources to the system. I know because I went through it myself. I remember thinking my family needed salvation. I was discipled to believe that I needed to break contact with my family and the church was now my family. In the end, I realized I had given up everything for these people and what they were building wasn't the kingdom of God but nice homes and office space for themselves with no financial accountability. It was a crushing realization followed by accusations that I had problems with money because I asked for a financial statement and bought a car without discussing it with anyone. I pray that your brother doesn't go through this. I am still shocked that I was so neive to have bought into it myself.

[another_brick_in_the_wall (another_brick_in_the_wall)]

From my perspective:
I don't recall being taught that other we (EN) were the only ones saved; however, I learned through interaction/connection the belief that other churches were dead. Christians who professed to be Christians "weren't really a Christian" because they were not "sold out", "on fire" enough.

My personal belief as I bathed in the toxic soup of EN lessons, innuendos and implications is that the "outsiders" didn't get it - didn't understand - need to be saved.

My perception was definitely an "us vs. them" mentality. I was afraid to even visit another denomination because I thought it would be a waste of my time. And then there is that talk where members fear stepping outside of their covering. Honestly, that is a true fear that is birthed, developed and cultivated within EN members. That whole "covering" crap.

There is the belief that Christians who don't have "covering" are proned to be deceived, led astray.

You get the picture...

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

I think that may be more true for some EN churches than others. Part of the old Maranatha mindset where everyone else was not evangelical enough or holy enough or dedicated enough. EN emphasises a strong corporate culture and identity which can be mistaken for exclusivism which I don't really think is the idea of most people within the movement. On the other hand, it has been interesting to see how EN has distanced itself from other charismatic movement and 3rd wave churches and seems to want people to understand that its approach is somewhat unique and different and so to is its mandate.

[out_of_the_blue (out_of_the_blue)]

Thankyou, you've all really helped.

I think we'd be scared to suggest setting up a meeting with his pastor in case it rang alarm bells and the pastor took it as a warning to distance my brother from the influence of his family, but I am more encouraged that we could possibly pick a good time and all sit down with my brother and discuss our concerns.

He has actually been in the His People church for a few years but his zeal was renewed when it became Every Nation last year.

[actually (actually)]

Hi there, I agree with speakword (and I continue to grieve over the teachings that you had to put up with lc - salvation dependent on tongues - what nonsense!)

Just to add in some practical examples - last Sunday, my church hosted a combined service for all of the Christian churches in the area. The pulpit was shared by AoG pastors, Presbyterians etc - all genuine, Bible believing Christians. And the weekend before that, we hosted the regional Childrens' Ministers conference which was attended by a wide range of Christians from different churches. Likewise the speakers were from a variety of backgrounds. So in my church, we definitely aren't preaching or practising an elitist mentality

Out_of_the_blue, I pray that your brother would abound in Godly wisdom to go along with that zeal.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

I think we'd be scared to suggest setting up a meeting with his pastor in case it rang alarm bells and the pastor took it as a warning to distance my brother from the influence of his family

out of the blue, this statement in itself is a red flag imho, since this sounds eerily similar to documented instances of this happening in old Maranatha. I don't know if your fear is based on what you've read on this forum or if you have any further local evidence that this might happen though. Anyway, the only other suggestion I can add is if you're not already doing so, pray for your brother, that his eyes and ears are opened to the truth, whatever that truth may turn out to be where he is. While I don't mean to paint individual churches with a broad brush as either "all bad" or "all good," there are enough "red flags" particularly emanating from the US-based leadership of EN imho to at least remain aware and discerning. Of course, that's what we as Christians are supposed to do in general anyway... remain aware, alert and discerning.

blessings,
ulyankee

[out_of_the_blue (out_of_the_blue)]

Thankyou Ulyankee

I think you're right - my fears could be partly based on what I've read on this forum but there's enough all round to make me not take too many risks!

My family is already praying for him and they are depending on me to keep an eye on Every Nation and any developments, either good or bad, so I am trying to keep an open eye and an open mind.

Thankyou all

[bartoc (bartoc)]

out_of_blue,

I understand your concern, and quite frankly the people on this board may do nothing but heighten your concern. However, you did go searching for information, so you must have had some real flags for you to do so.

I wish I could share my story, as I had a teenage daughter that was influenced by EN/MSI in a negative manner, but I can not at this time. At some point in the future I will, if you are still on the boards and need some support.

However, I believe your above post is the best plan to pray and watch. However, if you ever get majorly concerned, may I suggest a book that helped me immensely with deproggraming my teenager, when it became necessary for her health.

Twisted Scriptures by Mary Alice Chronalogar

You can find it at Amazon and is about a $13 paperback. In it you not only find tools to help deproggram, but also you will find the buzz words, some of the the theories and cases to read about. This can help in your understanding if your brother is getting in too deep or if, and I pray it is the case, he is not. It also can help your understanding of the "language" he is using as for me it was very different than that of the less evangelical churches I had attended. Sometimes I needed the book the same way you may go to Spain and need a translations book. So it became my second "good book".

Keep the Faith,
Bartoc

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

<font color="119911">(imo) The best way to understand a local church is to go to that church, meet the people, talk to the people in leadership. The larger organization or denomination that a church is part of is important, but to such a small degree that I have seen great churches in "dead" organizations/denominations and some really dead ones in "live" organizations/denominations.

Visit the church and meet the people who have been there the longest. Then pray, and listen to the Holy Spirit.

I happen to be part of an EN church (been there 14 years) and it is the best church of many I have been a part of in my life. And I know it fairly well, warts and all.

--SB</font>

[upcase20 (upcase20)]

Well I used to hear the commments, "We're better than everyone else: We're the only ones with the truth: Don't associate with anyone else " Leaving is not easy.

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

out-of-the-blue,

I agree with bartoc. You need to get a copy of TWISTED SCRIPTURES. Here is the excerpt from this book that led me to find out who Maranatha really was. It was the open door of understanding that i desperately needed after Harpel SCREAMED AT ME TO "GET OUT! WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE? GET OUT! GET OUT!" on March 15, 2000. He knew that I was starting to find out who he really was i.e. a cult leader and that Maranatha was really a deadly mind-control cult labeled as such by the Wall Street Journal and countless others.

Chrnalogar, Mary Alice. Twisted Scriptures: A Path To Freedom From Abusive Churches (Chattanooga: Control Techniques, Inc., 1997) pp. 265-266.

Appendix 2

SHEPHERDING/DISCIPLESHIP/ ACCOUNT ABILITY GROUPS: A BRIEF HISTORY
There are differences of opinion regarding the origin of the shepherding/discipleship movement. Tom Yoder gives his first- hand knowledge of the movement:

It seems to have sprung up simultaneously in several groups in the United States and South America during the late 1960s and early 1970s. The best known of the early groups combined beliefs and practices from several sources. One source in the late 1960s was an inner city Episcopalian church in Houston, Texas, that used a form of shepherding in caring for people with special needs who were brought into church members' homes. Later, that shepherding system expanded to include most of the members of the church's charismatic community. During this same time, former leaders of the aberrant 1950s Pentecostal "Latter Rain Movement" taught that the proper church governmental model was the "Five-Fold Ministries." The phrase refers to the presumed hierarchical ordering of the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers found in Ephesians 4:11-13. This group taught that the ultimate purpose of these ministries was to unite all believers, and to acquire a divine nature. The five-fold Ministries doctrine also held that there are living apostles who are to rule the church and eventually the world.

In 1966, former Communist Douglas Hyde wrote an influential book, “Dedication and Leadership: Learning from the Communists” in which he urged Christians to adopt Communist cell group methods to recruit, inspire, and train new members. Some of the shepherding leaders adopted Hyde's book as a guide. Although not a misguided loyalty, it was a misguided methodology. Those adopting communistic methods did not understand their inherent evil.
The most prominent shepherding leaders were Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, Don Basham, Charles Simpson, and Ern Baxter who formed the Christian Growth Ministries in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, along with others not mentioned here. Steve Clark and Ralph Martin, leaders of an early charismatic covenant community in Ann Arbor, Michigan, called The Word of God, introduced two of these men to the specific goals and methods of shepherding around 1972. Together with Kevin Ranaghan and Paul DeCelles (leaders of the covenant community called People of Praise in South Bend, Indiana), and Larry Christenson and Don Pfotenauer, these men formed the somewhat secretive “General Council," which directed the main elements of the shepherding movement from 1974 through the early 1980s. [ www.seekgod.ca/gc.htm (http://www.seekgod.ca/gc.htm)] The Council sponsored the National Men's Shepherding Conferences in the mid to late 1970s. The men of this General Council controlled the major charismatic media of the day: New Covenant, Pastoral Renewal, New Wine, and Servant Publications. They attempted to influence Cardinal Suenens and other bishops in the Pope's efforts to bring the Catholic Charismatic Renewal into the heart of the Catholic Church. That is, the Council attempted to keep control of the Charismatic Renewal out of the hands of the Catholic hierarchy. They attempted to form a single network of eighty or more Catholic charismatic covenant communities under their control consisting of those connected to the Word of God, the People of Praise, and the Gulf Coast Fellowship. It should be noted that many Shepherding groups never came under the umbrella of these men.
In 1974, several years after discipleship began, Juan Carlos Ortiz came to the United States from Argentina. With the help of the late Jamie Buckingham, Ortiz wrote Call to Discipleship in 1975. This was one of the first books that widely spread this particular type of discipleship in the charismatic movement.

Comments

When I first read this, my eyes were fixed upon the name, “Don Pfotenhauer” because it was Pfotenhauer whom Bruce Harpel proudly announced was the “apostolic covering over Maranatha. Harpel said this many times from 1998-2000. Bruce Harpel once introduced me to Pfotenhauer at Coffman Student Union around September 1999 at the University of Minnesota. Harpel said, “Bill, I’d like you to meet Don Pfotenhaer.” He is listed in “Who’s Who in the Charismatic Movement.” Later, NOLR apostate Harpel tells us that Pfotenhauer was excommunicated from the Lutheran Church for “speaking in tongues.” As usual, Harpel lied. Upon extensive investigation, I secured the entire transcription of Pfotenhauer’s excommunication trial which was from the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. Don Pfotenhauer was successfully convicted of heresy that was a direct result of his doctrinal association with both the New Order of the Latter Rain and the Roman Catholic Church. Specifically, he held to extra-biblical revelation and refused to try the spirits that were giving him these revelations. Don Pfotenhauer attributed his enlightenment with the Holy Spirit in the very same way as Bob Weiner, Rice Broocks and every other NOLR apostate attributes their enlightenment.

Except this time was different. You see, Carl Donald Pfotenhauer had a very wonderful heritage in that according to his son-in-law, Keith Jentoft, there has been a Pfotenhauer in the Lutheran pulpit since Martin Luther!!!! Don Pfotenhauer sacrificed this godly heritage for the same lie for which Adam and Eve fell – you shall be as God! Most of us could only wish for such a heritage.

In the days of Martin Luther, there were a select group of Lutheran ministers who secretly held that the Kabbalah was the inspired Word of God just as the Bible. One of these apostate Lutherans was Johann Valentin Andrae, who wrote the announcement of the Rosicrucian Brotherhood in the form of tracts called the Fama and the Confessio. Later, more secret Rosicrucian groups formed and several small groups that held to the false Kabbalah-based doctrines of Jacob Boehme came to Germantown, PA. It was the Rosicrucian writings of Jacob Boehme and Jane Leade that were picked up and promoted by the early founders of the New Order of the Latter Rain. Bob Mumford, Ern Baxter, Don Basham, Derek Prince, and Charles Simpson all became part of this Rosicrucian mindset and covenanted together as part of the Many-Membered Manchild. Read the General Council Minutes and see they prayed the high priestly prayer of John 17 in first place i.e. as Jesus Christ!

John Robert Stevens and Royal Cronquist also immersed themselves into re-fabricated Rosicrucian doctrines until they claimed to be reincarnated “apostles”. Another well-known Quaker and part of the rock group, the Everly Brothers, namely, John Richard Wimber [www.angelfire.com/nj4/oldsongs2/jw1.jpg (http://www.angelfire.com/nj4/oldsongs2/jw1.jpg)] also adopted NOLR doctrines and teamed up with apostate Prof. Clarence Peter Wagner at Fuller Theological. They taught a class on Christianized spiritism and divination called “MC510 Signs and Wonders.” In 1997, John Wimber, his son and several other false leaders of Wimber’s Vineyard cult died of cancer. Quaker John Wimber adopted the occult teachings of Jacob Boehme through the transmission of Jane Leade’s writings just the same way as the early English Quakers did. He paid the supreme price too.

After Wimber died in 1997, Wagner forms his New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) of which MCM/MSI/ENC is an integral part and has been since the 80s.

It was Royal Cronquist and other NOLR leaders that inseminated Bob Weiner’s mind with these ancient false doctrines based upon alchemy, astrology, hermeticism and the Lurian Kabbalah. Rose Weiner is no different either. Her mind, her soul has been compromised. Bob Weiner faithfully passed on these false doctrines via his heretical Bible study books, his wifes’ prophesies and the infamous laying on of hands to more young apostates like Bruce Harpel, Rice Broocks, Ron Lewis, Leo Lawson and countless others. This is the same mode of transmission that has been used for well over 300 years in these occult covens. Now, it seems all of this has gone mainstream as is Harry Potter books. The occult is now “in style” and the Rosicrucian agenda is in full swing – swinging toward the Lake of Fire that is…but then again, maybe Hell will provide these spiritual alchemists the ultimate in alchemical death and resurrection. What an opportunity, right?

When your convinced that you can become co-equal with Jesus Christ, you have committed the very same error as Lucifer before he was excommunicated from heaven along with the rest of the rebel angels and you will get the very same reward. These fallen angels need a corporeal body to carry out their plan for a New World Order, New Kingdom Age, etc. under their leader Satan. They keep repackaging the same lies so each generation won’t recognize them for lack of a historical understanding. Once they enter into the bodies of the leaders, they quickly learn to mimic the person’s personality while putting the person’s real personality – their soul – in a type of prison. These leaders bought into the lies that let the evil angels inside of them. You’ve seen the Intel logo that says, “Intel Inside” right? Well, the slogan for the NOLR leaders is “Satan Inside” and you can see this manifest when you start asking pointed questions to these false leaders. I did this with Bruce Harpel and his face instantly contorted and snapped back exactly like the vicious wolf that Jesus describes in the gospels. Once the doctrines are imbedded in the leaders through “prophetic declarations” or laying on of hands, it’s too late.

Everybody on this list needs to purchase a copy of TWISTED SCRIPTURES. Then, you can go on from there and read the 3-part online article from Al Dager called “Kingdom Theology.”

http://members.tripod.com/thecontenders/kingdom1.htm

If we don’t learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it, and that’s exactly what is now taking place. It’s high time to start CONNECTING THE DOTS and recognize where we have been and where we now are. The Bible, His-story and His grace will lead us out of the snare of the NOLR fowlers and as Jesus said,

“You shall know the truth [including the suppressed parts] and the truth will set you free.”

Mary Alice is a really sweet sister in Christ and has had many years in exit counseling Maranathans. She is now standing by in case anybody needs help in this area. Besides that, she lives in Chattanooga which is close by ENC.

God Bless,

--Bill

[out_of_the_blue (out_of_the_blue)]

Thankyou Bill for all the information - must have taken you ages! It does look like an invaluable book, especially as we are not concerned as much with my younger brother's Local Church (as he has been there years already and we have all attended services there and met all his lovely friends - not our choice for a lifestyle but he seemed happy) as much as we are concerned with his ambition and prompting by his church for him to do bigger and greater things for Every Nation, thus getting closer to the core. He has a huge heart and is very warm, caring and generous and I hate to think of him putting everything into what he believes wholeheartedly to be right, not realizing the true background. (Hopefully he will get suspicious when that happens)

I do know though that his church did already have dating policies, a LOT of meetings during the week to take up all his time and it has now changed, eg. the services, since they gained close ties to Every Nation headquarters since last year.

(Message edited by out_of_the_blue on September 29, 2005)

[out_of_the_blue (out_of_the_blue)]

Trusting and with a big heart - sums him up completely.

One of those descriptions is spot on but I can't say which - I'm worried I've already given too much away.

I'm starting to realise now that the 'elders' in the church and superiors to my brother could actually be some of his friends his age and when I think they are just being friendly and sociable in actual fact they are checking up on him??

I so wish he'd never been 'discovered'.

[john_r_jones (john_r_jones)]

OOTB,
I was giving your situation some thought this morning and tried to post then but the Factnet disgronificator was bamboozled. So here we are this afternoon. Historicaly, we Christians have had to discern between having God be the center of our existence and having a ministry, theology, or other thing about God be the center instead. Jews of Jesus' day were fundamentally unable to grasp His Messiahship because of this issue. The word made flesh in His person illustrates for us the human face of God, not embodied in a system, theology or human effort. He instead used inclusive language-"Come unto me all you who are weary and heavy burdened" or His prayer which was initiated with the words "Our Father". To entertain a religion where the perihelion of our existence spiritually has something instead of someone-Jesus as anchor leaves us to the caprice of human invention.

Our involvement in church has much to do with the articualtion of Jesus' personhood in us individually. He told His disciples that it would be better for them that He should go to the Father, and the Holy Spirit would come and guide them into all truth. This infilling of the spirit did indeed transform them and the rest of Asia and known civilization. Saul of Tarsus who became Paul, was a coatrack for those who stoned Stephen, on his way to do same to others in Asia met Jesus on the way. His un-donkeyed self steeped in religious ardor tackled by the Messiah he persecuted and assumed his identity in Jesus, no longer the foe of God's people. Paul's journey, litterally and figuratively a consequence of being arrested by the spirit of God in the person of Jesus-Paul counted all things loss to gain Christ. He knew Jesus, more importantly he knew he would be sustained only out of his intimacy with Jesus. "Oh wretched man that I am..." Paul lamented, "I do the things that I do not want to do and the things I should do I can't". Paul was no stranger to the yaw and pitch of human existence, of his capability outside of the gravitational field of God's grace, of the Messiah-Jesus who beconed to him in the waning years of imprisonment in Rome. Paul a brilliant scholar, and zealot, groomed for great things found his center not in religious rigor, but in the simplicity of the Gospel-Good News.
John

[aletheia (aletheia)]

outoftheblue,

I wrote to you previously, and wanted to mention a questionable quote from the Every Nation Leadership Institute (ENLI) booklet entitled Apostolic Foundations:

"There are thieves. There are people who will try to steal the deposit by influencing us to run with another vision or hold to other values."

This statement labels people "thieves" who try to influence others to follow another vision, mission or intended purpose of Every Nation Churches and Ministries; and might I add "thieves" would probably include people who try to change or add to the vision of ENCM.

Jesus called the devil a "thief" who comes to "steal, kill and destoy," but a godly Christian who suggests or tries to implement another ministry vision in EN is certainly not a "thief" - more likely a visionary pioneer!

BTW, the word "deposit" (cf. 2 Timothy 1:13,14) refers to EN's ministry vision described in their mission statement:

"To honor God and advance His kingdom through church planting, campus ministry, and world missions."

The Apostolic Foundations booklet concludes by discussing people who leave Every Nation's "spiritual family." On the one hand, that ENLI booklet states "people are blessed as they leave not stigmatized as unfaithful covenant breakers," but in a discussion on that topic I overheard an EN pastor declare (verbatim) "Judas forsook his friend Jesus with a kiss."

I'll continue to pray that your brother will receive a clear revelation from God of what is true versus what is dross and come to "see the light."

Peace to you in Christ,
aletheia



(Message edited by aletheia on September 29, 2005)

[out_of_the_blue (out_of_the_blue)]

Thankyou Aletheia and John,

It's all becoming much clearer and I will watch my step and I think we will try to carefully find out more from him about what he actually believes and take it from there.

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Is your brother a "leader" or being groomed to be a leader?

[out_of_the_blue (out_of_the_blue)]

I'm not exactly sure - he's been there for a few years and has graduated from their Bible school, 2nd year, I get the impression they want much more from him.

Really hard not to give too much away!

[jonmoseley]

Is it true that Every Nation members are told they are the only ones to be saved?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

You are in far greater danger from the toxic, acid soup of the bitterness, unforgiveness, and warped views of reality on this board than your brother is from Every Nation. I fear for your immortal soul if you continue reading the garbage posted by the HATE-mongers on this board.

HERE IS AN IMPORTANT TIP:

TELL YOUR BROTHER HE IS SUPPOSED TO READ HIS BIBLE.

Several of the geniuses you are listening to on this board think that members of Every Nation DON'T KNOW that they are supposed to read their Bible!!!!!

So, ask your brother if his church is teaching him to read his Bible.

If he looks at you like you are out of your mind (of course he knows to read his Bible) then you will get a clue about whom you are listening to on this Board.

Simply remind your brother that there are NO perfect churches, and ALL of them will make mistakes.

Finally, the best thing you can do to protect and win your brother is (a) study your own Bible, (b) seek God deeply and intensively so that YOU will be an on fire Christian, too, even if you go to a different church.

Do you want to show your brother that EN is not the only church that is alive.

PROVE IT TO HIM through the example of your own life. GET ON FIRE FOR GOD (even if in a different church outside of EN.)

And don't listen to people who don't truly love God anyway.

[wildwood_]

Jon, this is not a true statement and you've been told this several times now. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

You are in far greater danger from the toxic, acid soup of the bitterness, unforgiveness, and warped views of reality on this board than your brother is from Every Nation. I fear for your immortal soul if you continue reading the garbage posted by the HATE-mongers on this board.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
What is your goal in posting here? Are you a Hate Monger? Because no one else here is or has any desire to become one. You appear drunk on the giddiness of your own delusions. Go to sleep. Start tomorrow with a clear heart for the Lord.}

[dust]

Post 272 IS NOT WILDWOOD. I just spoke to Wildwood. Her identity has been taken....for POst 271 and 272.

we all know she doesn't talk like this. She loves Jesus and she would pray for you, just as she is praying for those in EN.

[wildwood_]

...I've posted elsewhere re: the odd problems of the weekend of Oct 21 &amp; 22nd... but in all the threads I had trouble getting back to this #271... for the record, since this thread seems like one day it might be useful again: I re-state... The "top part of the above is what I started to type"...and the general question as to the poster's purpose and a suggestion to go to bed was offered...minus the "question about Hate Monger and drunk on giddiness of your own delusions"...as I recall I probably asked if the poster was projecting their own attitudes on those posting..." I definitely suggested that sleep was in order &amp; starting again with a clear heart for the Lord... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif I found unwelcomed pests on my own hard drive &amp; changed Virus Protection Programs...I reported it to Factnet and given their repeated crashes recently...I'm almost certain it was their "server" that was hijacked...my opinion only of course...and I recommend all users just back-up your systems, upgrade your firewalls, and go back and read your posts after that "long" wait...and not skip on to the next thread...(I use to do that. I copy all my posts now too).

I'm thankful to Dust &amp; J2t...and others here that knew although it sounded like my "Voice" and had a bit of my "Voice" in it... The Voice was not "Wildwood_". I think of it as a lesson on how easy it is for people to take a few of Jesus' words and try to say "This is Jesus"...but there's something that does not ring "True" or sound "Right"... Those who'd read my posts over the last few months...could tell the difference. And by reading the Scriptures for ourselves, daily dwelling on them in conversations with the Lord...not intense "study" to learn backup for doctrines (although necessary) but just to "hear"...to "enjoy"...like any wonderful book that grabs your attention &amp; keeps on grabbing it..and read the Bible from Genesis to Revelations...(that's a bit harder I'll admit). Learn the Lord's Voice from His Words...don't ever let anyone try to tell you what the Bible says... Check it out for yourself &amp; get to know Him...then when teachers come in and say things that sound so like Jesus...but feel "Off" or "Wrong"... Listen to your heart and pray...We are all His Sheep and we do know HIS VOICE...

[dust]

Wildwood: I think of it as a lesson on how easy it is for people to take a few of Jesus' words and try to say "This is Jesus"...but there's something that does not ring "True" or sound "Right"..

Dust: Awesome thought. This is the fruit of real relationship. We KNOW when our good friend or our spouse had a bad day and say something that is not them. We should be merciful in this and remember them in the context of the history we have with them, not one day. And, what you say about 'knowing Jesus" is so cool...because the doctrinal/theological tit for tat sometimes makes me crazy...I want to say, DON'T tell me about my Savior. I KNOW Him! Wildie.....you give good thoughts.

[wildwood_]

Greetings! Dustie! And thanks. The "doctrinal/theological tit for tat" has always driven me a bit nuts too... My Mom told us a children how there were some in our home Church of Christ that wanted her to be re-baptized...since she'd been baptized in a shocking cult group...those pesky Southern Baptists...LOL. Mom declined a bit vocally that'd she'd been "Baptized" for the Lord...not a "Building with a name painted on it"...and that the Lord added to His Church daily such that should be saved &amp; She'd been "Saved" and "Added" whether those in that particular building knew it or not.... Rebel Lady from Georgia disturbing those Yankees in Kentucky with her radical "thinking". She never let us forget that our Faith wasn't based on the "Church" because "we are the Church"...our Hope, our Salvation, our Joy is based on our relationship with Jesus Christ the Son of God! And to never let anyone try and get "in-between"...(even when my folks were disturbed by my "Charismatic" experiences, they never questioned my salvation or my working out my own salvation...they just thought I was well...nuts...) one of the few pieces of wisdom (the salvation part...not the "nuts" part...although possibly applicable from time to time) that I learned &amp; agreed with at an early age (her other words of wisdom...oh, took longer...much, much longer to "sink into" me...still working on some too...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif...).