MCMEN Reprobatebs Secret Sin Hall of Fame

[lablady2]

Back in the late 70s, when I had little kids, I would put them down for a nap, pull my kitchen curtains and turned on "Days of Our Lives." Kept the volume down so low in case Bob or Diana Nolte showed up that I developed bat hearing.

[mcmstaff78]

Saw this in the other thread and almost commented there but I will comment here.

I'm reminded (again) of the time mdillon, the current Mrs. Leo Lawson and I went to Nashville after we were told M'boro was being shut down, sat a top the Hyatt Regency in their rotating restaurant and had a glass of wine. No, I don't think we told anyone about that.

Of course, I think I'd rather be known as a drinker than a soap opera addict!! ;-D

[lablady2]

mcm: did I not mention the drinking part?

[lablady2]

mcm: I remember Murfreesboro for two reasons:

1). Late 70s/early 80s MLTS site.

2). Early 90s, site of the New Kids on the Block concert that I drove 4 tweeners to see.

Both horrific experiences. Not sure which was worse.

[j2theperson]

EN leaders seemed obsessed with physical fitness. My pastor, Fred Bradford, would often say from the pulpit "If the only things I do during the day are read my bible and lift weights I know I've done what God wanted me to do."

No one knew how unhealthy my diet was. Before I joined EN I had a healthy diet and after I left EN I had a healthy diet, but while I was a member of EN I basically lived off of peanut-butter M&Ms.

[lablady2]

j2: the obsession with weight/fitness may have started in MCM. My one and only true sheep was a heavy-set, single girl. I was told more than once by leadership that she was lazy and that she could be brought before the church for her disobedience in regards to dieting, etc.

I could not beat her over the head about it. I needed to lose a couple of pounds myself. We just basically kept playing it off to "dealing with emotional issues (demons would have been more acceptable) and getting to the "spiritual root" of her problem.

How very sad.

A slim figure, physical attractiveness, good clothes, a nice car, status and wealth -those were MCM's version of the fruits of the spirit.

[matt_hatter]

I didn't put a new coat of cordovan Kiwi shoe polish on my Bass Weejuns one Sunday morning and tore a matress tag off that afternoon.

[lablady2]

matt: I am rofl.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi ---I ignored everyone else on staff input on what I should do with my disciples- We Played, did sports, visited people in nursing homes helped people in the church move,etc. If something was up, I let God show it to them. If it was from Him, it happened and they learned to hear Him. These were small thing, to me no big deal !! I became successful using this method soon I was discipling a good portion of our new church. I had learned this in teacher's training ; it worked.}

[ageeh]

Guys I have a serious concern with your posts in the last 13 months or more. You seem to be focused on the hell and unjust nature of EN/MCM/HP more than you do on your own differences and common ground outside the EN story. This cannot be an online fellowship as i was led to believe.
There two important things to consider with any interaction that is supposed to be bringing healing to broken hearts:

1. That such people identify the cause of their hurt.
2. That they seek help or healing as Jesus said"I am anointed to brake the yoke of slavery, set captives free and to heal the broken hearted...

I think through the last year post on MCM/EN/HP discussion, you have disected the root of the problem'cauz for the hurt from MCM...

But I do not see anyone going forward for healing and building. Philirosenthal put a thread on dealing with sin, that is where I realised how extremely apart you are on basic principle of God's kingdom, that's righteousnes/holiness some of you who were pastor in Maranatha or elders in HP stil habor the worse beliefs on homosexuality and general sin among christian. one of you resulted in agreing to disagree on matters of holiness a pre-requiste for those who will endure to the end who the bible say will enherit the kingdom.

Surely even Jesus would never listen to an argument where someone abuses love to argue abomination such as homosexuality. Jesus never said Judge homosexuals but he said they will not see the kingdom of heaven. that equals no argument nor debate. Look guys a christian who is born-again can never be homosexual never...I know one guy in Wits University who loved christian student services but was outspoken gay. After talking to him, I alerted the leadership of such organisation but they told me they can't judge him since God loved him. They let him continue in the worship team. I stopped visiting at their service. Later on they heard him tell them straight in their eyes that he wasn't going to hide his nature as God created him that way. So he started inviting more gays to that ministry and had some of those gays join the worship team. Later those gays started proposing love to brothers in the service and enjoyed hacking the brothers till a time God dealt with the organisation where it experienced the worse attendance and where most brothers went to other services.

And after lots of confrontations i personally had on the individual leaders of that organisation about their political beliefs which were difiling a student christian organisation that one president of such organisation conseded and removed those gays from participating in services. from then everyone came back and the ministry grew again as it was the largest christian organisation than Hispeopl

[freedom43]

I went to a few PG-rated movies AT NIGHT, ALONE with a guy from my office. (I'm a woman.) We also had lunch together almost every day ALONE.

There never was anything more than a great friendship. We made each other laugh, and we still do. It was an unlikely friendship as I was a southern girl -- Maranatha-type Christian -- and he was a Jewish guy from Long Island.

That was over 20 years ago, and he is still one of my closest friends.

[lablady2]

Nice story, Freedom. An experience like MCM can make you appreciate the small things so much.

Ageeh, if you have any serious concerns about the nature of MY posts, I advise you to ignore them as I will yours. In fact, I'd be pleased as punch if you didn't respond to any of my posts. I've wasted enough years on religious rhetoric.

As far as I am concerned, this is not an "online (Christian or Otherwise) fellowship." It is what it is; a message board about religious cults.

[freedom43]

ageeh: But I do not see anyone going forward for healing and building. This cannot be an online fellowship as i was led to believe.

Me: From FACTNet FAQ: "FACTNet supports the rights of everyone to believe whatever they want or to follow whatever faith they wish."

I'm new here. I think a lot of "fellowshiping" seems to take place here, but I don't think anyone claims that this is some kind of on-line church or that we are all in agreement here. There are a broad range of beliefs. And, not everyone who posts here even claims to be a Christian.

From what I can see, our common ground is that most of us have come in contact with Maranatha/MSI/EN and have been hurt by it or seen the abuses. We are hoping that the truth of our stories and what we share will help others. In the process of telling our stories, we share and interpret Scripture, thoughts and insights on issues related to church authority, etc. And, yes, we agree to disagree at times.

If we were still in MSI/EN/Maranatha, and disagreed with our leaders, we would be accused of having something wrong with us, either having a demon, rebellious, or a problem with authority. We might even be kicked out of the church, "turned over to Satan" and shunned by the very people who were supposed to love us unconditionally and be our life-long friends.

It's nice to have a "safe place" to have discussions and disagree.

[ageeh]

sure, fredom

In discusing a matter one knows there's the beginning and end. but I don't see any progress as far as discusing EN is concerned, hence my concern that why not concentrate on those individual beliefs you habor, iron them out thru God's word until you are of one mind as Paul wrote in his letters. I remember very well that scriptures promote oneness and common tradition which apostles preached and taught as Jesus himself instructed his disciples that they may preach the gospel and make disciples of many nation and teach them to keep the teachings he taught them,

is that difficult to achieve instead of being blinded by the Hell EN is inflicting on deceived christians in their ministry

[lablady2]

"I don't see any progree as far as discussing EN is concerned"

Ageeh, I think you may have one definition of progress as it relates to EN while others may have an entirely different definition. It seems that you are talking about "progressing" EN to some sort of right standing with God. I think most people here might define "progressing" as moving their lives beyond the negative experiences of EN so they be whole, productive and happy human beings who can better serve God.

I see this board as being about healing; you see it as an opportunity to share your agenda (your book, soon to be published, according to your thread about "Global Warriors" or some such latter day revelation).

Opportunists are low on my list, particularly in religious or spiritual matters. To me, you just feel like more of the same.

[football7]

This is healing, laughter and fun and reconnection. Sorry you can't laugh, you must not be too far removed or removed. Actually it has bridged the past with the present for me and is healthy. Making up for lost time.

[miltietoast]

welcome ageeh
there has been healing on this board you need to read all the posts.That might mess with your agenda.I have reconnected with old friends and met new ones.Also the list of deviants who will not inherit the kingdom of God "casts" a wider net than just homosexuality. Entwining many

[ulyankee]

coppertree: visited people in nursing homes helped people in the church move,etc.

Gasp!

If something was up, I let God show it to them. If it was from Him, it happened and they learned to hear Him.

Gasp! Choke!

These were small thing, to me no big deal !!

Coppertree, these may seem like they were small things, no big deal, but they're really huge.

What you do unto the least, you do unto Me, Jesus said.

Ageeh, welcome, if you want serious discussion, you may want to stay on the other threads... but that doesn't mean that healing doesn't take place here in the "general chat" either. People who have been "discipled" in a legalistic system as in MCM/MSI/EN are learning all about and exercising their freedom in Christ - to paraphrase what the apostle said, all things are permissible, even if not all those things are good. The solution though isn't reimposing MCM/MSI/EN taboos but learning how to hear the voice of the Spirit for oneself, and allowing the fruits of the Spirit to grow, one of which is self-control.

blessings,
ulyankee

[annelewis]

While we were engaged, we held hands. And we sat close to each other and he put his arm around me.

[ulyankee]

I posted on FACTNet. Before I left. I talked to other people outside my church, about what was going on in church. Like a family member who was a minister in another denomination. Before I left.

[ulyankee]

And with that... I'm a senior member!!! Woohoo!

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[lablady2]

UL: It takes guts to start bringing it up before you leave. You set yourself up for a real emotional beating. I remember the feelings of disloyalty and betrayal I experienced when i started to tell others. I got over it pretty quickly, though.

[john_r_jones]

Congrats UL,
of course you've had much more than one thousand posts since the gizmo made us all start over some time ago.
John

[freedom43]

annelewis: While we were engaged, we held hands. And we sat close to each other and he put his arm around me.

Me: that is so sweet. knowing you two makes it sweeter. I can picture it.

[annelewis]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Freedom wrote: I can picture it.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

We made darn sure no one ever saw us though. I remember an engaged couple (Steven and Denise H.) actually held hands in front of me, a single girl. I was shocked but didn't feel compelled to tell "leadership". She said later that they had talked about it and felt it was appropriate to express some physical affection for each other as part of their transition from single to married.

Despite PG movies and clandestine lunches with men (I once sat at a picnic with a classmate) and hand holding, we seem to be ok. Go figure.

[wisedove]

I went to other churches outside of EN when they had special guest speakers.

[wisedove]

I stopped going to small group meetings when they decided to take worship out of the small group, and when the small group lessons became nothing more than re-discussing the nice topical lesson from the previous Sunday service at church.

[wisedove]

I still served in the church even though I couldn't bare to continue to go to the leadership summits and continuosly see a different side to leaders there than they acted on Sunday mornings.

I have a glass of wine every now and again, even a beer or two with my steak, crawfish, or just as I watch a movie. (I know to stop at 1 or 2)

[wisedove]

i have a bad temper and get short with my husband and children. I tend to be impatient and easily frustrated.

<font color="aa00aa"><font face="courier new,courier"><font size="+2">Thank God for His grace and mercy.....</font></font></font>

[matt_hatter]

Congrats Senior Uly! I am catching you and John, and of course my posts have been so meaningful in getting to that 1000 level. Maybe we could start some kind of Bob Weiner 1000 Club or something....

[matt_hatter]

ageeh: "Throughout my 26 years of life experience and reading of thousands of books,"

I realize you posted this on another thread, but this intro just caused me to rofl. Let's see...double your years, forget the books and take lablady's advice, drop the relgious pretense and spend the next 26 years doing something productive. Look me up, I'll be at the Happy Acres Retirement Home with all my buddies drinking RR from a sippy cup. SameO, I like the Foghorn Leghorn cups, can you check Target?

[lablady2]

matt: RR/sippy cup - now you're talking productive.

[john_r_jones]

I'd fall off the platforms don't want a wild animal strapped on my head, I as Jewish as pulled pork, and don't like to hear the sound of my own voice, finally God already has so many "Big Hands" in his body-part storehouse. You can enjoy my bowling trophy! (Appropriate emoticon here deranged leer)
John

[lablady2]

John, I'm so sorry to hear that. I always thought you'd look cute with a wild animal strapped to your head. Why do my dreams just keep biting the dust?

[john_r_jones]

What have you got against Dust?

John

[jesusisawesome]

Ulyankee: People who have been "discipled" in a legalistic system as in MCM/MSI/EN are learning all about and exercising their freedom in Christ - to paraphrase what the apostle said, all things are permissible, even if not all those things are good. The solution though isn't reimposing MCM/MSI/EN taboos but learning how to hear the voice of the Spirit for oneself, and allowing the fruits of the Spirit to grow, one of which is self-control.

JIA: Ulyankee, that was SO GOOD I want to give it an encore!

[flo1151]

ul and john,
I used to have 2000 posts before I changed my name like wise dove
flo

[lablady2]

Dust won't wear a wild animal on his/her head either.

As for the Jewish/Pork issue, Bunnylicious: While Jews won't serve pork in the temple, I'd say that 85% of the (Reform) Jews I know do eat pork. In fact, I sashayed into Starnes a few weeks back for some larapin' ribs for the 4th of July. Okay, so an Orthodox Jew would have a heart attack. Just for knowing, Reform is to Judaism as Episcopalians are to Christianity.

Doggone it, John. Now I want a bar-be-que sandwich!

[john_r_jones]

We have a Barbeque place here called VooDoo BarBQ. That stuff is fine but in La. tradition the sides are to die for as well. BBQ here is few and far between not like Paducah. I used to hang-out at Mr. BBQ in Grand Rivers I think my friends who owned it sold it.

John

[lablady2]

Never heard of it, J. We have several bbq places up here around the lake, but nobody tops Starnes in my humble opinion. Worth the 30 mile drive.

[flo1151]

John,
I have a big green egg and can barbecue ribs, chicken and pork shoulder better than 99 percent pf the restaurants in the country. I kid you not. It is actually a grill dome(big green egg is more recognizable). Although it was about $700.00 it was some of the best money I have ever spent. Maybe we could start a barbecue forum.

[john_r_jones]

Yeah I've seen the egg, does that mean I get to QC your product someday? I learned to make my own BBQ in LA. I bought a smoker out there and began experimenting with it. One day I smelled the smell you get around Starnes and I started inviting people over for food. The next time I made BBQ folks just showed up. I am an avowed BBQ addict, a user, pull the rib outta my hand.

John

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

LabLady wrote:While Jews won't serve pork in the temple, I'd say that 85% of the (Reform) Jews I know do eat pork.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
So, the message I'm getting is that I am more Jewish than some of you Jews...but only because I can't stand pork. Barf.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[lablady2]

j2: I'm not a big pork eater, either. However, bbq and bacon do make my top twenty.

Sorry, kiddo, but not liking pork doesn't automatically make you a Jew. Too bad; you'd make a great MOT.

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

LabLady wrote: Sorry, kiddo, but not liking pork doesn't automatically make you a Jew. Too bad; you'd make a great MOT.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I guess I'll just have to stick to being vaguely attracted to Jewish men.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[football7]

The first place I go when I am in Paducah is Starnes. The last place I go when I leave Paducah is Starnes. I wonder if they ship ?

[annelewis]

Did any of you ex Gainesvillians ever have the barbecue from Shelly Duff's father's place? Now that was good. Even better than Sonny's or Sunny's or whatever that place was.

[miltietoast]

mattie what was the little place just off of opelika highway not Country's BBQ(not bad either)
We have a place in Cookeville called Bobby Q's good dry ribs and vinegar based sauce. It was in the Bobby Q's parking lot that Mike Caulk got shot a bird by innocent Rae Ann

[freedom43]

Oh -- I just remembered another secret sin: watching re-runs of old TV shows while cooking dinner: The Big Valley, Star Trek and M*A*S*H now and then. I lived in the pastor's basement for a while and his 11-year-old daughter came in and saw me watching M*A*S*H once. She said "Miss Freedom, why are you watching that horrible TV show?" Now, if I could just remember what I said to her?!

[dust]

Speaking of food, this was my secret in EN. I cooked a full dinner every week for my cell group. Huh, you say. What's wrong with that?

Believe me, this was against the RULES. But, I really believed it was what I was supposed to do, and I knew it was right from God, for it was easy and I always found the extra money for the groceries. And, we had REAL meals, like Grilled Salmon over Pesto Orzo...or we from scratch Gumbo, and we always did a dessert. It was a lot of fun. It started when working women would come right from work, and I would offer them whatever I had for dinner. People started showing up early and coming hungry. Then I heard God say, just feed everyone a good dinner every week. It was very rewarding, and I enjoyed planning the menu and making it special, and then having a gread study.
However, It was all done on the sly. I would have been considered promoting codependency, or not duplicatable.

Eventually, we weren't allowed to meet in our own homes and the dinners came to an end replaced by coffee at Starbucks.

I had been raised with a dinner table and talking. It was my way of fostering "relationships." Too bad we weren't allowed to minister with our own giftings and cultural expression.

[john_r_jones]

dust,
I can't imagine being a part of a "church" that is so controlling and manic about such stuff. Or of thinking people will over time continue to tollerate this idiocy. Table fellowship was a cornerstone of Jesus ministry.

You can bet the boys ate well in Palm Springs and met and that damn sure ain't duplicatable, it is duplicitous however.

John-gnawing on the furniture!

[dust]

But, John, can you imagine them cooking for those they discipled?

I was so wrong for EN. I really believed I should serve my group. And, I didn't make them do the dishes! If I really had it down like an EN'ite, they would have cooked ME dinner and did my dishes.

One of the things that I LOVE to read about in the gospels is the meals with Jesus. Forword and I have the gift of hospitality, which means people coming to our home and we all having great time, talking, eating. In EN, if you have the gift of hospitality, you are back in the kitchen cutting pineapple. They don't get the "intimacy" that takes place in this gift. The "L" word might come up.

And, John, believe me, I never imagined either being part of a church like this. It was surreal. Now that we are free, it's hard to believe some the unwritten rules of control. Praise the Lord for all of you here and for our sanity to be restored!

[john_r_jones]

Interesting that you mention that. Here in LA. our former pastor would do just that. He'd put out quite a spread, fresh fish, shrimp, and other stuff or do crawfish boils. They weren't well to do at all but insisted on hospitality. We're nuts about entertaining and enjoy cooking etc. for folks. Last time it was for four hundred.
John

[annelewis]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I just remembered another secret sin: watching re-runs of old TV shows while cooking dinner: The Big Valley, Star Trek and M*A*S*H now and then. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I remember having a couple who was staying with us watch Star Trek Next Generation and being a little scandalized by Counselor Troi's empath abilities. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif Fortunately I got over it, which is good because I live with a bunch o' sci-fi geeks. Ironically, MASH is now a staple on the Hallmark channel which has positioned itself as "faith friendly" TV and is part of the line up on Sky Angel satellite TV services.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Dust wrote:Speaking of food, this was my secret in EN. I cooked a full dinner every week for my cell group. Huh, you say. What's wrong with that?

Believe me, this was against the RULES. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
What was the rationale behind that?

[40days40years]

ageeh posted:Guys I have a serious concern with your posts in the last 13 months or more. You seem to be focused on the hell and unjust nature of EN/MCM/HP more than you do on your own differences and common ground outside the EN story. This cannot be an online fellowship as i was led to believe.

Who told you this was an online fellowship? Philip R? Our common ground is our problems with this thing you do not make sense ageeh on this.
------------------------------------
lab you sad: Just for knowing, Reform is to Judaism as Episcopalians are to Christianity.

Uhhmmm ll2, I think the reformed are more in the Unitarian/Christian Science category, Episcopalians rule the world.

[lablady2]

40 days: I'm not sure the 1.5 million Reform Jews in North America could grasp your comparison of RJ to Christian Science, particularly since I know that many Christians view Christian Science as cultish. Would you care to elaborate?

Have you attended a Reform Synagogue? My sister is Episcopalian and I am a former Lutheran. I'm pretty sure my analogy holds for the point I was making - that Reform is the most liberal expression of Judaism.

(Message edited by lablady2 on August 18, 2006)

[40days40years]

There are some very conservative Episcopalians though was my point and they are the most powerful block in wasp world, that is all I was saying. Never visited a reformed syanagougue I may be wrong but when I think of a reformed jew I think of liberal unitarians. What do I know?, educate me.

[lablady2]

Well, maybe a bit of education for both of us. First, it's "Reform" and not reformed, a common mistake.

I take your point about Episcopalians. My bad. My entire Lutheran/Episcopal experience has been with the more liberal branches. You are right; there are more conservative arms of those denominations. I will step out on a limb and guess that even the most conservative Episcopalians might be a tad more liberal than some other Christian denominations. I will be more careful in the future.

As far as liberal unitarianism vs. Reform Judaism - so much to learn, so little time. So I'll post a link if you're really interested:

www.urj.org

(Message edited by lablady2 on August 18, 2006)

(Message edited by lablady2 on August 18, 2006)

[lablady2]

Not my morning. I'll try it again.

http://www.urj.org

[40days40years]

o.k thanks I will check out that link I suppose I was mixing politics in with religioun ll2. I do get your point. Episcopalians (that is so hard to spell I want to throw more E's in there somewhere) are the wealthiest on a per capita basis though in christendom. Rockefellar repubs, fisically conservative but more socially liberal than most. I think comparing them to reform jews is a stretch even though you will find renegade priests wanting to ordain women and gays....etc. I believe most presidents have been Episcopalian. I am starting to have more trouble posting that is factnets way of saying please donate http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif. Gotta go.

[wisedove]

dust:replaced by coffee at Starbucks.

That's not sooo bad!!! Seriously, though, I applaud you for stepping out and doing what YOU knew GOD told you to do, and served the dinner! I have friend here in Louisiana who did (and probably does) still do the same thing. After the WEDNESDAY night church service (before THAT was stopped) this couple (who had 7 children, mind you,) had any one over for fellowship and dinner that wanted to come. It was the most enjoyable time I had while attending that church.

Yes, there were a lot of unwritten RULES where I went here in La., too. These were the reasons I finally left. Praise God.

[dust]

Anne you asked about The rationale behind the unwritten rule of serving dinner.

Okay, this sounds completely absurd. The structure they wanted us to live by was something that was duplicatable. And, my "disciples" would not want to start their own cell groups because then they would think they would have to cook dinner. Or, they wouldn't want to leave the group.

You meet, you warm up, you have a PURPLE BOOK lesson, you pray, you leave. You train the people up to be leaders, they split off and duplicate, like (network marketing). That is now your downline.

I actually have booklet from the Phillipines from 1999 (steve murrell) that explained the "rules for cell group" which eventually was modified even much stricter in 2004.

Dove, I love coffee at Starbucks; I hate being told that is the ONLY place I can have a cell group or bible study. I hate being told I am NOT allowed to have people to my home for bible study or for prayer. And, specifically NO PRAYER GROUPS in the home. This type of CONTROL is a shadow of the new world order. Will Christians have to form SECRET meetings in the future? Well, yes if you go to Every Nation. And this is happening today!

Serving dinner every week would be seen as too much ministry, not duplicatable. One pastor's wife said, "you women can get too co-dependent, You form relationships and then you don't want to leave and go start your own group. She said, once they've been in your group and gone through the Purple Book, kick them out.

[freedom43]

Dust: One pastor's wife said, "you women can get too co-dependent, You form relationships and then you don't want to leave and go start your own group. She said, once they've been in your group and gone through the Purple Book, kick them out.

Me: This kind of control reminds me of an awful situation in Maranatha that happened to me back in NC in early 80s. One pastor and his wife -- who had been my "discipler" had left the church/moved on in good standing. Before the pastor's wife left, she asked another mature Christian woman in the church to be my "shepherdess."

It was a great fit. I was a young, poor college student. She was married, a little older, had three kids. She found out that I was doing laundry at a laundry mat and invited me to come to her house regularly on Friday afternoons after class, do laundry, pray together, etc. I would stay for dinner and then have family time with her and her husband and children. I would babysit for them when they needed it. It was just what I needed at that time, and I learned a lot about love and family from them and was growing in my relationship with God. We became the best of friends and are still very close. I think having that family as a shelter helped me survive Maranatha my last year in college.

Anyway, my roomate at the time was very legalistic and was the church secretary. She complained to the new pastor, Ronnie Lewis, that I was spending too much time with that family. I can't really remember why, but we all had to have a big "sit down" and accusations were flying about me not being discipled. He didn't know that the previous pastor's wife had asked my friend to be my "overseer." By the time it was over, I think she and I were both in tears and her husband was explaining to Ronnie that he had been baptized in the Holy Spirit when Ronnie was still in diapers.

I left shortly thereafter and headed to another Maranatha in another city. (I should have learned my lesson!) But, that experience left a really bad taste in my mouth. It was just plain weird and wreaked of control and insecurity. That's one of the last personal encounters I can recall with Ronnie Lewis. Later, my friend and her family left his church too and moved away.

[dust]

The KEY is a spirit that goes against Love. Sound trite? No, looking at the BIG picture, anywhere LOVING relationships form that are independent of SERVING leaders, there is fear. Classic cultism. You may become "intimate." Carry each other's burdens; serve one another HORIZONTALLY, not vertically. This is LOVE. That's the pscyho-social reason.

Reading your story, one would say, did this really happen. But, it's age old in this ministry, and it keeps repeating. Someone on this thread suggested that they don't see any progress in people on this thread. How incorrect that is.

[john_r_jones]

My cynical self wonders...
1. Subject actually ate with others in the church in an official capacity unsanctioned by leadership. Microwave radiation tainted broccoli suspected in aberrant behavior of friendship unbecoming.

2. Subject did laundry with same using laundry detergent that had demonic symbol on box. Spiritual warfare ensued for deliverance of the spiritual stronghold of Proctor and Gamble.

3. Meeting held in Starbucks so that no Mormons would supplant agenda of world domination.

4. Meeting scheduled with offending "family" to correct erroneous notion that their home was actually theirs to use as they please. Home idolatry was discussed and possible major appliance box therapy considered.

5. Looked at self in mirror and felt rising sense of awe at the level of prophetic significance that has attached to ministry of organic radiation discernment, personal hygiene deliverance, and domestic utility transference from idolatry of domestic tranquility.

6. Reported all of the above to home office and given a gold star on the way to planetary submission vision initiative number 347 EveryKitchen in our generation! And the second but equally important initiative in the laundry room Change our Underwear-Change the World!

John

[freedom43]

Dust: Reading your story, one would say, did this really happen. But, it's age old in this ministry, and it keeps repeating. Someone on this thread suggested that they don't see any progress in people on this thread. How incorrect that is.

Me: Thanks for the insight. It's strange because it WAS so long ago and seemed SO surreal that I sometimes wonder myself if it really happened. Without a forum like this, I would never have known that it is typical for them/such groups. I'm learning a lot. Thanks.

The internet/forums like this must really scare them. Because part of the way they control people is to scare them into silence. They want to control the information flow and preach against rebellion, gossip, slander, independence -- to keep folks quiet. I've often thought "The Conspiracy of Silence" might be a good book title about what happened in Maranatha.

[sameo]

freedom said:"Dust: Reading your story, one would say, did this really happen. But, it's age old in this ministry, and it keeps repeating."

Thanks guys for spelling it out...sadly. And also to everyone else who posted. This is what makes me so sad, and so infuriated. YOU nailed it Dust-by saying "the KEY is in going against a spirit of love." When you read all these testimonies about loving families WHO get rebuked for loving too much...how absurd. I too got severely rebuked once, for "being too much of a friend" to the women I discipled. A friend and I were talking the other day, and we both said neither one of us could ever find it in us to ream someone out, or show anything but kindness to people. I don't mean that to sound arrogant, I make the point that IN showing KINDNESS to people both of us were continually brought before the elders and REBUKED!!!!! for showing a spirit of LOVE...just as you mentioned, Dust.

To think that this family accepting you, freedom43, into their home, and showering you with love and acceptance, and being an example of a godly, loving family....and being told there is something wrong with that??? THIS IS INSANE!!!!!!

[sameo]

I remember spending time in Wash DC with two families from CJ MaHaney/and Larry Tomzcak's church and remembering HOW different the "spirit" or atmosphere felt there....it was so peaceful and full of love. I felt none of that fear, and pressure there....and I longed for that and secretly wished this were MY church, rather than the harshness of Maranatha. It's like our father, BobW, thought his harshness was being loving...his legalism..mistaken "For our own good!" And true love...kindess, being mistaken as "compromising, and weak."

How sad....and I want to say to any reading here, still in EN....there is such a freedom in being able to live, and walk in LOVE without being rebuked for being too kind. I don't have to gear up every day ANYmore to be BOLD, and LOUD, and aggressive. I was never comfortable trying to BE a BOBW -that's just NOT who I was. I remember that intense pressure, and stress of that. BUT I'm learning that "I am fearfully and wonderfully made"...just the way I am. NOW other people may disagree w/ me being wonderfully made...but, how's this...I can at least be myself?! It has taken 20 yrs being out of Maranatha to begin to believe I am of any worth....NOW what's wrong with THAT picture? it's alittle ironic, don't ya think?

[sameo]

What is the real reason for keeping people/members from feeling good, and being happy, and receiving love...and mercy/grace instead of Rebuke? Why must EVERTHING BE such a hardship in order for us to learn SOME GREAT revelation?

It has to be this NEED for them to CONTROL>...but the thing they don't understand is...IF ONLY they would show LOVE, and grace....and let UP on the pressure and legalism....well, probably Maranatha would even still be here today. WHEN WILL THEY LEARN???? IT IS the LOVE of GOD that keeps us...not the harsh legalism. That method can only work temporarily...until one day the seams burst from the pressure.

1 COR 13

"If I speak in the tongues of men and angels, but have not love I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledege, and if I have a faith that can move mountains , but have not love, I am nothing." Etc.

"Love is patient, love is kind."

1 COR 13:13"And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is LOVE."

[freedom43]

Amen, sameo. But, I think it is too late. Their foundation was built by Bob W: harsh legalism, strict control, authoritarian, etc. They have changed the name and re-arranged the deck chairs several times, but let's face it, they are still sinking.

I am still pondering Dust's very intutive observation about serving vertically v horizontally. The giving, the serving, the name it, claim it with regard to money -- that stuff only applied to the leaders. They didn't want us wasting our giving on each other! No one else got their houses cleanned for free or had nice houses, cars, etc. handed them on a silver platter. I was always a little amazed at how they preached about financial blessings coming to those who gave (more and more and more to them) and trusted God. But, I never heard stories about the lay person getting the miracles. We were poor students living off soup, peanut butter, crackers and 25 cent boxes of Jiffy Corn Muffins. Don't get me wrong, God always provided, but it was mostly through my parents coughing up more money because I had given mine away to the church!

[sameo]

freedom said:"But, I never heard stories about the lay person getting the miracles. We were poor students living off soup, peanut butter, crackers and 25 cent boxes of Jiffy Corn Muffins. Don't get me wrong, God always provided, but it was mostly through my parents coughing up more money because I had given mine away to the church!"


A BIG AMEN TO THAT, freedom43!!! HEy-EN'er's and BobW>...did ya hear that????? great point you made on your whole post, freedom!!!

Yes-it's too late...sinking ship--but maybe even ONE person still on the boat will jump---and swim to safety. Hope so. (Also, I agree, great points Dust!!!)

[dust]

Freedom, think about this also. The WORSHIP which should be VERTICAL, was often horizontal. That'll keep you up at night!

And Sameo I'm ready for a LOVE fest. Right now the world is very stressful. I can't even watch the news. LOVE and GRACE is the way to go!

[sameo]

YOU know, freedom, thinking about it-you are right...about it being too late.(I repat myself) but too-I am not even sure the motive in leadership IS TO try and learn from mistakes...they have one agenda...and we know what that is...and it ain't "walk in love, but control people to get what we want.need."

I am hoping though that the members being led around....and controlled....the lay people...maybe they will WAKE UP>..and come to their senses-out of that hypnotic spell they are under! That's my prayer...

[matt_hatter]

SameO, dust, freedom, nice posts...my hope is not for this organization...I believe it is too late. My hope is for the struggling sweet souls whose conflicting minds are telling them to flee...and praying that they will! YOU WILL FIND LIFE ON THE OTHER SIDE!!
Matt

[sameo]

Dust said:"Freedom, think about this also. The WORSHIP which should be VERTICAL, was often horizontal. That'll keep you up at night"

BINGO! EXACTLY RIGHT, sadly. SO true.

[dust]

Matt
I agree.....and there is LIFE on the OTHER SIDE. I think we're doing pretty good.

I wanted to say today how much I love all my fact net friends. I really feel like God has brought us together from many different places, and to the extent we may not even know yet.

You make me feel like dancing.....
Okay, when Dust gets loose, you know SHE'S STRESSED!

[wisedove]

Dust:Will Christians have to form SECRET meetings in the future? Well, yes if you go to Every Nation. And this is happening today!

me: yes, this is. I was TOLD by leadership that if I wanted to visit ministries outside of EN, DO IT IN SECRET.

Hello, dust, btw! I'm having fun trying to picture you cutting loose and dancing...sorry again for the ridiculous way our phone conversation got cut off today AGAIN...Praying for ya!!!

Speaking of Prayer, dust and I thought of starting a prayer request thread...I might do it today. We need to bathe each other in prayer. There are alot of us under all sort of attack. I, for one, am new in my new church, and have not gotten plugged in fellowship wise yet to have a prayer support group. If any one here wants to participate, just go to that thread.

I am trying to figure the worship being vertical and horizontal...My brain can barely add 1+1 right now. Don't go makin me try to be all philosophical and all....just give it to me plain and simple.

JRJ, I don't know what to say about your millionth post above...just that i wanted to be rofl...hysterical. Thanks for the laughs, yet again.

[john_r_jones]

Glad to be of service for the 1070th time.

John

[matt_hatter]

"You make me feel like dancing....."

Hey, don't tell forward, but I have dusted off the lime green leisure suit, got the BeeGee's cranked up (Sat. Night Fever soundtrack) and ready to disco girl! (Somebody get my nitro pills...)

Love All my factnet buddies too, even the ones I have shot my mouth off at. Oh, I forgot, "we are all negative, all the time", darn, guess we shouldn't be encouraging each other in here. LOL

Matt

[flo1151]

I have enjoyed my brief time here. It has been therapudic and hopefully some of my public repentance has broght about healing for those who have read them. Repentance, healing, encouragement, sounds like a good thing to me. Stick that where the sun doesn't shine Ageeh!

[matt_hatter]

Ditto all of that my friend flo!
Matt

[jonmoseley]

I went to other churches outside of EN when they had special guest speakers

ME: Not only that, but (horrors) MARANATHA LEADERS BROUGHT THOSE SPEAKERS IN TO SPEAK AT OUR OWN CONFERENCES AND FROM OUR PULPIT.

One of the greatest proofs that MCM was *NEVER* a cult was the steady stream of OUTSIDERS who regularly took over our pastors' pulpits, ministered in great depth in special sessions for prayer, healing, miracles, prophecy, etc., etc., and the outsiders who DOMINATED our conferences. The MAJORITY of the speakers and presenations were from NON-Maranatha ministers and preachers.

GET OVER YOURSELVES, HYPOCRITES!

[jonmoseley]

I went to other churches outside of EN when they had special guest speakers

ME: Not only that, but (horrors) MARANATHA LEADERS BROUGHT THOSE SPEAKERS IN TO SPEAK AT OUR OWN CONFERENCES AND FROM OUR PULPIT.

One of the greatest proofs that MCM was *NEVER* a cult was the steady stream of OUTSIDERS who regularly took over our pastors' pulpits, ministered in great depth in special sessions for prayer, healing, miracles, prophecy, etc., etc., and the outsiders who DOMINATED our conferences. The MAJORITY of the speakers and presenations were from NON-Maranatha ministers and preachers.

GET OVER YOURSELVES, HYPOCRITES!

[40days40years]

Jon, Rev. Moon also brought in outsiders, the creme of the crop to speak are you going to say he is not cultic?

[jonmoseley]

By the way, not only did I OPENLY attend other churches while in Maranatha, but I attended a non-Maranatha conference in New Orleans, and found ERIC HOLMBERG there along with many other Maranatha members and leaders.

I drove Eric Holmberg to the airport.

What you describe just didn't happen

REPENT ye liars and hypocrites.

[40days40years]

Not everyone here thinks MCM was a cult. I tend to lean towards very messed up church, will you agree with that?

[jonmoseley]

By the way, not only did I OPENLY attend other churches while in Maranatha, but I attended a non-Maranatha conference in New Orleans, and found ERIC HOLMBERG there along with many other Maranatha members and leaders.

I drove Eric Holmberg to the airport.

What you describe just didn't happen

REPENT ye liars and hypocrites.

[jonmoseley]

By the way, not only did I OPENLY attend other churches while in Maranatha, but I attended a non-Maranatha conference in New Orleans, and found ERIC HOLMBERG there along with many other Maranatha members and leaders.

I drove Eric Holmberg to the airport.

What you describe just didn't happen

REPENT ye liars and hypocrites.

[dust]

FROM FACTNET
Remember FACTNet Inc. treats all message postings on its message boards as the opinions of the message posters.

We draw the line when people try to "re-victimize" people who have left cults or toxic organizations. We do not abide by people who attempt to chase people off this discussion board by endless harassment. Culprits will be banned.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/FactLogoSmall.gif

[jonmoseley]

By the way, not only did I OPENLY attend other churches while in Maranatha, but I attended a non-Maranatha conference in New Orleans, and found ERIC HOLMBERG there along with many other Maranatha members and leaders.

I drove Eric Holmberg to the airport.

What you describe just didn't happen

REPENT ye liars and hypocrites.

[wisedove]

4 times here

[daryl_payton_jr]

Wow.

DP

[yeahihearya]

HOLY COW DUST, I think we heard the same preacher's wife at the same meeting or whatever it was......hmmmm.....who are you Dust, I may not know you but if I do I'd love to talk with you via email or something?!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[yeahihearya]

Dust: sorry, I just noticed that that posting you had made was back in august...lol....oh, well....but still, i think we where at the same place at the same time,ect. lol