Scriptures to ponder

[forword]

pon•der
verb [ trans. ]
think about (something) carefully, esp. before making a decision or reaching a conclusion

[forword]

Ephesians 5
Walk in Love
*1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
***
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. 14 Therefore He says:

******“ Awake, you who sleep,
******Arise from the dead,
******And Christ will give you light.”
***
15 See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, 16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

*<font size="-2">"Scripture taken from the New King James Version. Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. Used by permission. All rights reserved."</font>

[forword]

Ecclesiastes 3
Everything Has Its Time
*1 To everything there is a season,
******A time for every purpose under heaven:
****** 2 A time to be born,
And a time to die;
******A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted;
****** 3 A time to kill,
And a time to heal;
******A time to break down,
And a time to build up;
****** 4 A time to weep,
And a time to laugh;
******A time to mourn,
And a time to dance;
****** 5 A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
******A time to embrace,
And a time to refrain from embracing;
****** 6 A time to gain,
And a time to lose;
******A time to keep,
And a time to throw away;
****** 7 A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
******A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak;
****** 8 A time to love,
And a time to hate;
******A time of war,
And a time of peace.

*<font size="-2">"Scripture taken from the New King James Version. Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. Used by permission. All rights reserved."</font>

[matt_hatter]

Forward, thank you for the scriptures, but it would be nice if you would give us your words regarding these scripture quotes. I would suggest you read some of the comments on the other thread regarding some of our banter if the above words are in regard to the silliness on factnet.

It is a natuaral thing that you do to defend your spouse, for that you are to be admired. At the same time, it is perplexing that you would post scripture, with your obvious personal feelings about some of us, yet give no indication to what you mean.

I could easily take one line out of the whole thing, "A time to laugh" and justify all that goes on in here.

So....what gives? Dialogue is always helpful. Just asking...

[lablady2]

Ponder is one of my favorite words.

[dust]

Matt: I could easily take one line out of the whole thing, "A time to laugh" and justify all that goes on in here.

Dust: But, I wasn't laughing. That was a thread I started AWAY from the bunny trails which was part of my "time to heal" and I have my way for that. I stayed away from bunny trails to keep anything negative or serious off there. When I saw what happened to the thread, it felt bad.

I cried a good cry, so when your time to laugh brings tears, is it maybe time to ponder?

[matt_hatter]

I think sometimes the threads are kind of like dinner time conversation. There may be a main theme, and the conversation gets sidetacked. Sometimes it goes back to the original subject, sometimes not. Now, your thread is off fishing. It is because flo, tongue in cheek, said there wasn't a whole lot more to him than what he posts in here--except he likes to fish. So off we go!

It can easily be rescued, as I did once, by returning to your subject at hand. The change in subject should not at all be looked at as some slap, but just a natural part of conversation.

I read Paul's words above, and I am guilty of coarse jesting. Yet I see something in that scripture that I consider far worse, "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes." It is this priciple we share in common. We have both been part of movements that are empty tombs.

One other thing, many of us are just too old to get drunk with wine, beer or anything else. Another hyperbole. Guilty of silly banter? Yes.

However, there is actually some pretty darn good stuff on that thread relating to what you reference as a "time to heal". The big picture has me less concerned about the silliness and much more concerned about the healing, however it happens, for folks who have been burned by "empty words". For some, it is the humor, forgive if it gets too bawdy at times, but again, I am more interested in seeing people's innards healed up.

[dust]

Well, If I'm sitting at the dinner table with my family, and someone starts to cry, we don't just keep on eating and joking.

[lablady2]

Personally, the day that a thread on Factnet brings me to tears, I will be gone. There are far more serious issues in this old world that are worthy of my tears; Factnet is not one of them. Perhaps you are giving more weight to conversations here than is healthy. Not worth your peace.

[matt_hatter]

dust, I have tried every way I can to give some explaination to our posts in here. There is NO WAY we could have known that a few jokes would have affected you that way. As soon as you posted theat you were crushed, the conversation turned back to the subject at hand. I do not know what else to say. I enjoy the friendships on factnet, but the day I lose sleep over it, I am gone. Be at peace, a merry heart does good like medicine!

[miltietoast]

dust we are just a bunch of drone bees
they eat the honey, cast all over the place,and lay around,their only purpose is a chance for a night with the queen. If they get the night the queen kills the drone in midair (disembowels him),if they do not get a night with the queen then about this time of year and winter coming the worker bees kill all the drones and push their dead bodies out of the hive

[j2theperson]

I think there's a difference between someone crying at a dinner table while the other diners continue to eat and laugh and someone crying over reading a FACTnet thread while the other posters continuing to joke around. The diners can see you cry; the posters cannot. It's not a matter of the posters being callous or rude it's simply a result of them not being able to see how hurt you are.

The tangents we all go off on are not done to offend or hurt. And the way we converse is not unique but is fairly typical of internet discussion forums.

And, if you don't want the threads you start to degenerate into bunny trails, that's not a problem. All you have to do is state in your initial post "hey, no bunny trails"--as some posters here have already done. The other posters will respect your wishes.

[dust]

I don't have to look at dead Amish girls or starving African babies to have a valid reason to cry. My personal journey, working out my Every Nation experiences are enough, and probably such things are at the innermost core of us all.

I was open, and honest and transparent. Crying is healthier than anger, than depression or being NUMB. It took me hours to put together what I wanted to post, so that I wouldn't get a group pounce, and that what I wrote would be healing for more than just myself. When I saw a string of chat room talk it looked not malicious but at least insensitive. And, it just brought a painful reaction....it's that simple. And, I fought off responding in any way except honestly about my own feelings.

I received a private email from a male who I don't know last night...said he has felt like crying himself on this board.

For some of us wrestling the issues of our faith, it's at our deepest nerve. I am not ashamed of sharing this, nor do I think it suggests any sort of emotional instability. The commentaries about my crying....well, I'm sure you've wanted to have a good cry yourself.

This board should be a safe place...there are enough Christians here to make it safe, to guard each other, not mock each other...laughter is not good medicine is everyone's not laughing.

Sadly new people do not come to this board. Or if they do, they don't stay long, and many of the people have left. You can say what you want, but what it tells me is that other people's freedoms were stepped on.

If you are "over" your pain and hurt from MCM as you say you are, that it was really nothing for you, then why not start a chatroom somewhere, and let the real hurting people come here who are in the middle of spiritual crisis and give them the room to walk out their healing?

How many EN people can you count that have entered here in the last three months? EN is still up and running and I'm sure people need this..WHERE ARE THEY?

And does anyone think about them? Does it even cross your mind at all?

[mcmstaff78]

Dust, I can appreciate what you're writing and agree to a great extent. However, the notion that an unmoderated forum on the internet can ever be a "safe place" is, for lack of a better word, naive. It just ain't gonna happen. I've been engaged in electronic discussions for about 20 years (old dial-up Bulletin Boards, FIDONet, AOL, CompuServe, UseNet and Internet forums). Never have I seen a "safe place" that wasn't moderated. Perhaps you might consider creating such a place. Yahoo! Groups certainly allows for a great deal of control (those "safe places" I've mentioned are all moderated Yahoo! Groups) or start a website with forum software.

Please know that I'm not writing this to run you, or anyone else, off anymore than I think you're wanting to run others off. I agree in concept with the idea of separating bunny threads from serious threads. I just don't think it can really be done, and certainly can't be enforced in FACTNet's current form.

It is very easy to take Internet discussions too seriously and confuse the Net with real life. Like the others, when something on the Net starts to upset me that much I know it's time to pull back and devote that time to other things.

[forword]

Matthew 19:26
But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

<font size="-2">Scripture taken from the New King James Version. Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson,*Inc. Used by permission. All rights reserved.</font>

[dust]

MCM, I get it...I'm suggesting that we aim for that. I'm not afraid of dialogue. I applauded the hot debate between you and Krems. And, I don't think you've ever crossed the line. I think you come with strong beliefs (that I don't fully agree with) but you are a great asset to any board.

NO MATTER WHAT, remember this board has already been established as the board for Every Nation and has a reputation for such world wide.

Let's see what others think?

Who believes it's a good idea to keep the chatroom stuff on the bunny trails....if a chat starts, simply say, let's move to bunny road or whatever.

You say it's easy to take internet stuff too seriously and confuse it with real life. EXCUSE ME, but the REAL LIFE of EVERY NATION abusing people/confusing people is NOT A FANTASY. It's all real....I actually KNOW people on this board. WE do some REAL LIFE PRAYING. It's about REAL LIFE PEOPLE getting real life messed up in their church.

[dust]

And one more thing to ponder.

Don't you wish someone back in the day was so willing to fight for your protection, for your voice when you were being abused?

How did all that abuse happen and then continue? Because people are afraid to stand for others. I was very vocal when I saw what was wrong and I was called in and they tried to shut my voice. At least I can say everyone in my cell was "'protected."
Two pastors tried to put the old "jezebel spirit" on one of the young gals. I stepped in. NO, she's not that. Don't say that. They actually shut up. Most would be too scared that those two pastors would then turn around and call them a jezebel spirit.
I don't use that kind of crazy language on people.

I tried to pray once during corporate prayer. They tried to control my prayers..they said, pray for the leaders. I said that's not what God told me to pray. He said pray for love. THEY TOOK the mike out of my hands. I stood firm. They gave the mike back. LATER, people came up and said, what you prayed what exactly the words God was giving me.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

dust: You say it's easy to take internet stuff too seriously and confuse it with real life. EXCUSE ME, but the REAL LIFE of EVERY NATION abusing people/confusing people is NOT A FANTASY. It's all real....I actually KNOW people on this board. WE do some REAL LIFE PRAYING. It's about REAL LIFE PEOPLE getting real life messed up in their church.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> You misunderstand me. I am not saying what is going on with EN is not real life, but this Internet forum is not real life. It is informational. But any thing else it might be is "virtual" only. You may take things you learn or people you meet to a "next step", but it don't happen on the Internet. This forum is not my life. It's a resource. It's a place to communicate. But life happens elsewhere, and that is where the real differences are made. Can you impact someone here? Absolutely. But the last I read, Jesus didn't mention Internet chats in Mt. 25, he said For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. (Matthew 25:35-36)

That said, again, I pretty much agree that serious threads should be kept serious and bunny trails should be off to the side. I try to adhere to that. My point was regarding seeing this a "safe place" more than any other aspect of your post. It's not, and never will be as long as it's unmoderated.

Oh, and don't worry about not fully agreeing with me, you've still got time!! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

dust: You say it's easy to take internet stuff too seriously and confuse it with real life. EXCUSE ME, but the REAL LIFE of EVERY NATION abusing people/confusing people is NOT A FANTASY. It's all real....I actually KNOW people on this board. WE do some REAL LIFE PRAYING. It's about REAL LIFE PEOPLE getting real life messed up in their church.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> You misunderstand me. I am not saying what is going on with EN is not real life, but this Internet forum is not real life. It is informational. But any thing else it might be is "virtual" only. You may take things you learn or people you meet to a "next step", but it don't happen on the Internet. This forum is not my life. It's a resource. It's a place to communicate. But life happens elsewhere, and that is where the real differences are made. Can you impact someone here? Absolutely. But the last I read, Jesus didn't mention Internet chats in Mt. 25, he said For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. (Matthew 25:35-36)

That said, again, I pretty much agree that serious threads should be kept serious and bunny trails should be off to the side. I try to adhere to that. My point was regarding seeing this a "safe place" more than any other aspect of your post. It's not, and never will be as long as it's unmoderated.

Oh, and don't worry about not fully agreeing with me, you've still got time!! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All
Mcm78- I think what being referred here would be the power of knowledge and attaining freedom with that knowledge that leads to wisdom. It is also the power of The written Word. Our brains like the virtural world, it can be real to them. Some might even say that they are like in some respects similar to written letter like those in the Gospel. Good is done here.}

[forword]

MCM and Coppertree, thanks for your thoughtful respose to Dust and we both get what you are saying.

(Message edited by forword on October 16, 2006)

[lablady2]

Makes me wonder how we ever survived and recovered from our MCM experience without a message board to see us through. I'm actually thankful that I had to work that stuff out for myself; it called for a total reliance on God. I'm sure it's comforting to commiserate with others following departure from an MCM/EN, but I think I would have missed some valuable personal lessons. Each to his own.

I wish you the best with your threads. I'm sure those of us who prefer to stay on the bunny trails can expect to fellowship there without interference as well.

[dust]

Hi MCM:
You wrote: But the last I read, Jesus didn't mention Internet chats in Mt. 25, he said For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. (Matthew 25:35-36)

Dust: Actually, this does happen behind the scenes...and is more appropriate than you know. Some of us have developed some friendships (we didn't know each other) and have helped each other in the very ways you cite. It seems like God is allowing us to see needs and help each other out. It's been quite amazing. There are a few of us who meet on the phone by conference call and pray together weekly. There is a lot that has evolved here that seems to be arranged by the Lord. And that is quite encouraging.

[wildwood_]

Hi Foward! Pondering...this last year that's the one thing that I have been able to do ponder...mostly on the "deep mysterys of God" and my place within those mysteries... Then I stumbled onto the board and found a whole new realm of material to "ponder"-think deeply &amp; prayerfully about.

And when I first came to this board I cried. I cried to see a friend whose heart I knew loved the Lord had been held forth in harsh terms for the actions that he'd done in the interveneing twenty years in the name of Jesus... I thought my friend's heart too would be broken to see the pain that his actions had caused however unintended. And I wanted to give those here a glimspe of that friend's heart before the world of MCM or Morningstar or EN had ever crossed his path... I posted and I did not think I'd have a reason to come back. But I have felt drawn and somewhat accountable for not watching out for my friend better when we were oh so terribly young. So, here I am now. Somewhat of an odd creature: Not MCM, Not EN but some shared history. And using this opportunity to reassess myself and my faith and my heart's hopes for the Lord.

Despite some of the most firm statements on this thread; I truly hope that all continue to fellowship together and interact to learn and grown in the things that are eyes are open to see.

Once long ago, I was blessed to be part of a large community of Christians on the Champus of UK...all mostly strangers to each other; all from vastly different Church backgrounds; yet, all drawn together daily because that's who we were... So, daily at one of the major cafeterias, two or three of the very low rows of tables would be our unoffical dining area...and at those tables came every type of Believer on Champus, with every version of the Bible and you could look down the table and hear &amp; see people contending and arguing and flipping pages and preaching their words and it was a Glorious Time to Serve Jesus in Truth. The arguements among some where legendary but when a rapture drill was called, all would make the offical "Leap" towards Heaven (even those who didn't believe in the Rapture). This board reminds me very much of those days long long ago and so far away. A diverse group of mixed opinion and strong willed holders of Faith. Always hovering a bit on the edge of total discord but never reaching that point... Held in place by a mutual kindness &amp; Love that only the truly young Christians still to give so freely with no questions asked.... (oh I'm sure I've posted before about this so excuse me if I repeated myself). My heart prays that all those who hold such a special place within it--will find a way to continue standing in quiet respect for each other as a balance of thought &amp; goals are achieved &amp; Jesus is seen walking among us one by one.

[dust]

Wildwood: And when I first came to this board I cried. I cried to see a friend whose heart I knew loved the Lord

Thanks for sharing a very real emotion and transparency. Yes, there are things here that hit to our deepest nerve, deepest wounds...

[forword]

Proverbs 9
1 Wisdom has built her house she has carved its seven columns.

2 She has prepared a great banquet, mixed the wines, and set the table.

3 She has sent her servants to invite everyone to come. She calls out from the heights overlooking the city.

4 “Come in with me,” she urges the simple.
To those who lack good judgment, she says,
5 “Come, eat my food,
and drink the wine I have mixed.
6 Leave your simple ways behind, and begin to live;
learn to use good judgment.”

7 Anyone who rebukes a mocker will get an insult in return.
Anyone who corrects the wicked will get hurt.

8 So don’t bother correcting mockers; they will only hate you.
But correct the wise, and they will love you.

9 Instruct the wise, and they will be even wiser.
Teach the righteous, and they will learn even more.

10 Fear of the Lord is the foundation of wisdom.
Knowledge of the Holy One results in good judgment.

11 Wisdom will multiply your days
and add years to your life.

12 If you become wise, you will be the one to benefit.
If you scorn wisdom, you will be the one to suffer.

13 The woman named Folly is brash.
She is ignorant and doesn’t know it.
14 She sits in her doorway
on the heights overlooking the city.
15 She calls out to men going by
who are minding their own business.
16 “Come in with me,” she urges the simple.
To those who lack good judgment, she says,
17 “Stolen water is refreshing;
food eaten in secret tastes the best!”
18 But little do they know that the dead are there.
Her guests are in the depths of the grave.

Holy Bible. New Living Translation copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers

[ulyankee]

Just a note... maybe this belongs on another thread, but oh well, I'm here... for some of us who came out of EN more recently, this is very serious business because while EN is not exactly the *same organization* as what some others here went through in MCM, the roots are the same and a lot of the damage can be the same or similar, particularly among those who get further in to advanced training and "leadership". As Tik has put it elsewhere, it's more refined, more subtle, so it's not exactly the same... but in some ways more dangerous because you're not getting beat up by a brute but a kindly parent who (in many cases) really really believes he's doing it for your own good, and may even feel really bad afterwards and may wish to change, but for whatever reason can't (HINT: TRUE repentance will go a long way. For that is where forgiveness and healing can be found, at the cross).

I do see multiple purposes here... some are here for healing, some are here to reconnect with old friends, some are here to chat or even debate.

Still others are here b/c they believe God is using them to call the organization to reform and repentance. I don't consider myself one of those (b/c I believe God called me to speak to the body, not to the head) but I respect those who are. I primarily try to do two things - proclaim Christ's sole Headship over the church whenever I get a chance, and provide information that I hope others find helpful.

For me, this is serious business. I have no problem with the banter and very occasionally may lob one in just for the fun of it. But the spiritual progeny so to speak of MCM are still at it 30 years later... to give them the benefit of the doubt, many may have the very best intentions but still are caught in what they learned in MCM... and some of us are truly here to help others be informed so that they don't have to go through what we did, or at least be able to make an informed decision whether they want to associate with this organization in the first place.

A suggestion is to be supportive of the need to some to engage in chat/banter, but conversely supportive of the more serious business that occurs here. People come here for help. I get emails from them and I'm sure others who have posted their emails here have as well. And there are many, many more who read but never post.

Some of those informational and other more "serious" needs might be better served in a more formal organization/forum similar to REVEAL (the former International Church of Christ organization) rather than a chat room, which is what this essentially is. It's a chat room with a purpose, directed toward people who were or are involved in "high impact," coercive organizations, but a very multifaceted one for sure.

I understand there may be some "issues" that may need to be worked out between individuals that I'm really not up on b/c I've not read the threads, and I don't mean to get involved in any disputes that I have no business getting involved in... this is just a general statement.

I for one am so grateful that so many former MCMers, including MCM pastors, have come forward in this forum. Two and a half years ago I prayed and prayed that even ONE would be wiling to come forward, and here you are!!! You all have clarified a lot of things for me personally. In some ways, you folks had a lot less of a clue than I thought you might being in leadership and all--you were strung along just as much if not more than the rank and file. But in other ways, you offer valuable insight into what EN eventually became and why.

blessings,
ulyankee

[forword]

ULY, for what it is woth, I agree 100%.

[matt_hatter]

Thank you uly. You are a true blessing. My mouth, as I have said before, can be a good friend to some and a terrible weapon to others. After 30 years of identity with the cross, I am a work in progress. One day I may grow up into a ulyankee.

[mdillon]

ulyankee,

i want to thank you for your post. you are the singlemost reason that i even attempted to come back here after my frustration of over a year ago posting under another screenname and being misunderstood and in some ways shunned. that you would consider responding the way you did off board when I emailed you venting my frustration helping me understand the nature of things here is something I will never forget and something I will always be grateful for. it is not surprising that I find your post above filled with the same spirit of understanding, and that too is something I am deeply grateful for. I have always contended that your work with The Timeline has stood far and above anything else that would shine a light upon the cockroach that is EN and would be remiss not to remind you of this once again. The Spirit of Christ that you exude here has always been evident to me and I pray blessings upon your continued work.

peace

dilly
p.s. this will be a doubledilly for old time's sake

[mdillon]

ulyankee,

i want to thank you for your post. you are the singlemost reason that i even attempted to come back here after my frustration of over a year ago posting under another screenname and being misunderstood and in some ways shunned. that you would consider responding the way you did off board when I emailed you venting my frustration helping me understand the nature of things here is something I will never forget and something I will always be grateful for. it is not surprising that I find your post above filled with the same spirit of understanding, and that too is something I am deeply grateful for. I have always contended that your work with The Timeline has stood far and above anything else that would shine a light upon the cockroach that is EN and would be remiss not to remind you of this once again. The Spirit of Christ that you exude here has always been evident to me and I pray blessings upon your continued work.

peace

dilly
p.s. this will be a doubledilly for old time's sake

[matt_hatter]

Like I said, double dip, one day I might grow up and be a uly.

[matt_hatter]

Like I said, double dip, one day I might grow up and be a uly.

[mdillon]

One day I may grow up into a ulyankee.

well i'm not holding MY breath.

see what you do to me mattie? i'm sorry, i couldn't resist. please don't think this is coarse jesting, it was kind of a 220 grit swipe.

dilly

[mdillon]

One day I may grow up into a ulyankee.

well i'm not holding MY breath.

see what you do to me mattie? i'm sorry, i couldn't resist. please don't think this is coarse jesting, it was kind of a 220 grit swipe.

dilly

[dust]

mdillon
I have been reluctant and scared to dialogue with you. But I have wanted to. I just didn't want wierd dynamics. No one especially me has judged you, and there has been a lot of agitation which has fueled much misunderstanding. That is why when I talk, I try hard to just direct one to one. I have freinds on this board, a lot of friends, and I don't pull them into anything. I grew up where that dynamic existed. For example, if my mother was mad at me, she would include my brother if he didn't take her side. So, it was always difficult.

I want to say that I believe in you as a believer..and I have never had anything against you ever. A long time ago, I was going to privately email you about your website and I was afriad to ..because of the dynamics of things.

I prayed about how to handle this and, if I say, you are welcome to always be here, I don't want it to have any innuendos...that I'm trying to sway or be a part of anything else. That's why I'm saying this. I come in fear that you will feel in the middle of old freindship. Please let's put that all aside. I'll work things out or not with matt. Let that please not affect our last exchanges and your welcome. And, please if you think Forword or I think this way or that way about you or your character, PLEASE just ask, just clear it up one to one.....Give me a chance to apologize if I need to or clear something I need to...

And, I hope I wasn't part of what hurt you a year ago, and your honesty blessed me.

[wisedove]

dust
don't be afraid of dilly-he's wiseasaserpent and gentleasadove...hehehe

[ulyankee]

mdillon... I certainly remember when you first posted here, under another identity, and around the same time wrote me offlist, and my first response was, OOOH!!!! OOOH!!!! Someone else who knows leadership!!!! Someone else who knows what REALLY happened!!! And then you got scared off and I felt SO bad. From what I remember at the there was a lot of suspicion then of anyone new to the board, some of it was warranted, some not. Don't get me wrong, EN leadership DOES read this forum but even though there was reason to be cautious, some of that "caution" seemed to have been misdirected at you. I even wondered if anything I wrote you offlist might have contributed, but then when you wrote back more recently you reassured me that it wasn't. I'm really glad now that so many of y'all have come forward.

More and more I'm realizing that those leaders who are still in there got just as banged up as you all if not more so, and are in just as much bondage as those of us who were in rank and file, again, if not more so. What is perceived as freedom is merely a cage that might be a little bigger than the MCM cage, where maybe a little extra padding has been put on the bars, but no less a cage.

You could even design one of your gorgeous custom dillybops for the cage and it would STILL be a cage.

There is such freedom in Christ, under His Headship.

You've blessed me too - thank you so much for your encouragement.

(Message edited by ulyankee on October 19, 2006)

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Hi All,
Ul, This is what I posted when I was here first, pity the leaders also. They are or were in a much worse place for the time that gladly gave. Can you imgine the pressure to keep , it all going. To perform well for the upper leadership, to carry ot on as, you are becoming drier and drier with our Lord, the one one wants to please. My....}

[vanguard]

Dust you said For example, if my mother was mad at me, she would include my brother if he didn't take her side. So, it was always difficult.

Sound Like EN and VCF type of leadership. Thats what they do, they would include your friends and family. Divide and conquer.

[dust]

Divide and conquer....

They do this with teens and their parents and even husbands and wives.

Ginger, Are you able to retrieve your stolen identity?

[ulyankee]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

This is what I posted when I was here first, pity the leaders also. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I have to confess, it's taken me a long time to get to this point, because I thought all along that they KNEW EXACTLY what they were doing and WHY... and persisted in this anyway.

I'm not so sure about that anymore. Perhaps even the top leaders are just as deceived, just as inculcated into the false teachings on covering and authority and apostolic leadership and all that. Perhaps even they don't fully understand what they're involved with and more importantly WHY or WHERE IT CAME FROM.

Did you know that even the top leaders themselves go through the Purple Book over and over, to make sure they get the "word" in them? I think about RB holding and pounding the Purple Book in his recent video on "foundations," just like most preachers do with the Bible, and I'm realizing that they're just as stunted and broken and bound as the rest of us were at one point or another. No number of spiritual warfare sessions or deliverance sessions, or speaking words to "cover" sin and/or what is discussed on FACTNet, or times through the Purple Book (or BSFF before that), or covenantal oaths and rings or who knows what else occurs among top leadership, replace the healing and forgiveness found at the Cross.

How sad. For lost in all of that busy-ness is the truth, the good news that the Lord Jesus did it all for us. He alone is our Atonement and Sacrifice. He alone is the Head of the church. We are ALL just servants, brothers and sisters in Christ.

You're right, coppertree, like you said so long ago, and it took me a while but I sure do pity them now. May the Lord have mercy upon them.

[dust]

Ulyankee, Coppertree

Ul said: and I'm realizing that they're just as stunted and broken and bound as the rest of us were at one point or another.

I am having a lot of dreams about the leaders..and embracing them.

God has removed a bitterness that could be personal, and somehow given me a heart for them. Although a heart for still getting to TRUTH. I am in a unique position here at least in that I fellowship, do business with and have friends in EN. And, maybe this has helped soften the heart. One trap I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO THOUGH is believing and using one scripture, that "love covers a multitude of sins." This scripture has been manipulated to mean:

We cover for each other no matter what. And Christian brothers and sisters stop telling each other the truth. How many people went to Phil complaining about Tony? They broke the unwritten rule of COVERING SIN and they were dismissed. How many people were flattened who tried to question the finances and the doctrine.

They may not realize how wrong this is...that it is grave sin to make COVENANTS or PACTS with men and forget the covenant God has with us.

Repentance doesn't happen because they COVER EACH OTHER,.
Correction doesn't happen because they COVER EACH OTHER,
Abuse continues because they COVER EACH OTHER,

Proverbs 3:3
Let not mercy and truth forsake you; Bind them around your neck, Write them on the tablet of your heart,

[ulyankee]

Right, dust, having a heart of mercy and forgiveness is not the same as <strike>covering</strike> compromising truth.

I am 100% vehemently opposed to the "covering" doctrine that is at the root of much of this mess. There are additional roots to the "covering" doctrine that we've discussed here on and off, and maybe it's important to some to know what they are, but it may simply be enough for others to know that it isn't of Christ. Christ alone is our covering. Not mantles passed down, words spoken, obedience to leaders, etc. etc. etc. While at the root of true love in Christ is TRUTH for He is TRUTH. There is no falsehood, no darkness in Him; darkness cannot fellowship with light.

But I have to ALWAYS REMEMBER that opposing this doctrine of demons does not mean that those who espouse it are the "enemy." No, they may be LOST, BROKEN, BOUND, DECEIVED, but not in and of themselves the enemy. If I truly have the heart of Christ, the Holy Spirit living in me, then I am bound to love them too.

Matthew 24:12-13 - Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Let not my heart grow cold, Lord Jesus I pray.

[vanguard]

Dust , Yea I am able to, I realized how they stole it. All they have to do is go to the forgotten password on the left hand corner,click on that then punch in my email. Anniegrey@msn.com then there you go, you can change the password. So what I did once I got back my identity, after three days, I change my email address. But it will take several weeks or months to get it back again.

[vanguard]

Dust , when those children started dying and having head accidents on 2004 in the philippines, that proves Steve Murrell CANNOT cover and protect them spiritually.

[dust]

I think about physical illnesses manifesting for a reason. This is something interesting and yet, horrible. And, all the more reason to tarry bringing truth and a vertical loyalty to God, instead of a horizontal loyalty to men.

Ulyankee talks about us not seeing the leaders as the ENEMY, and she is right. They are NOT the enemy; the enemy is the enemy. And, our armor is to stand in our salvation, in truth, in faith, in prayer, in the gospel, just as Ephesians 6 tells us.

It's STANDING IN TRUTH, not loyalty to men, in love, which brings freedom and crushes the enemy that moves to counterfeit and debunk the body of Christ. Can we carry one another's burdens? There is a woman who is neither EN or MCM who found her way to this board with us...she remembers the "faith" and the "walk" of an old friend who has now grown in reputation as one of the abusers. She is not giving up on him. When she shared this with me in early summer, it shook me and I realized I should not give up on the faith outcome of these leaders...WHO is praying for them? Do I have the proper positioning....of VERTICAL love that I would not cover up a sin of my brother, but that I would not give up on their repentance either?

[dust]

I thought about that stolen identity. Don't use your email you sign up with as the email you make public here...that should help.

[speakword2004]

Dear Friends

I want to thank you all for your care and concern, your love for the Truth and Jesus Christ. May the Lord richly bless you all. He is our advocate before the throne. He sees all the junk, the lies, the deceit and He is the one who will be our judge. My prayer is that the Lord gives all sides an understanding of what He would have all of us say and do.

[speakword2004]

Johnny Cash doesn't sing to the damned, he sings with the damned, and sometimes you feel he might prefer their company.
--from U2 singer Bono's liner notes of the "God" CD, Love God Murder boxed set

Guys, the Christianity I want to live in is one free of religiosity. A belief that is honest, open, candid and real. Authenticity is someting very believer's soul thirsts for. The real Jesus revealed Himself to me when I was born again and at that moment of true recognition I knew that I could never again settle for a second hand saviour or be in a place of worship where I, and I mean I, could not feel or find Him.

[dust]

Proverbs 9
7 Anyone who rebukes a mocker will get an insult in return.
Anyone who corrects the wicked will get hurt.

8 So don’t bother correcting mockers; they will only hate you.
But correct the wise, and they will love you.

9 Instruct the wise, and they will be even wiser.
Teach the righteous, and they will learn even more.

[forword]

Proverbs 10:19
When words are many, sin is not absent,
but he who holds his tongue is wise.

<font size="-2">New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society</font>

[40days40years]

But does that work on a message board?

[jbkrems]

Hey folks,

Here is a Scripture to ponder, for everyone...

Titus 3:10-11, New King James, "Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned."

[40days40years]

Oh Krems I thought you only specialized in faith scriptures.

[40days40years]

Well actually in forwords case: Proverbs 10:19
When words are many, sin is not absent,
but he who holds his tongue is wise.

In his case it works but if everyone was silent on a message board?

[jbkrems]

40: I would like to say I specialize in the Word of God. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[forword]

I think Proberbs 9:9 (posted above) applies here. I truly believe our friend Krems is honestly seeking wisdom and truth. Though we do not agree on every point, I certainly have seen him grow and mature in the tone of his postings. This can be contrasted to some others who simply want to huff and puff and call names, but appear to have no real interest in Truth.

And, yes, I do believe it applies just as much to a message board as it would to any other means of communication.

[40days40years]

Roger that Krems, but you realize you might get some hyenas biting at you for talking like that.

[jbkrems]

Thanks forword. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[jbkrems]

40: I understand and know that. I would not have put that on the Board if I did not feel like it was appropriate.

I'll probably post it again, in the future, if it applies to the situation I am contemplating right now... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[40days40years]

Any body have some pride scriptures? Just kidding guys, I gotta go and take a bath literally.

[miltietoast]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/FactLogoSmall.gif det Joe Milty here
Mr Krems you said,"Hey folks,

Here is a Scripture to ponder, for everyone...

Titus 3:10-11, New King James, "Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned."

I accept that as your confession.You have the right to make one phone call

[miltietoast]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/FactLogoSmall.gif det Joe Milty here
Mr Krems you said,"Hey folks,

Here is a Scripture to ponder, for everyone...

Titus 3:10-11, New King James, "Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned."

I accept that as your confession.You have the right to make one phone call

[wiseasaserpentgentleasadove]

Miltie-
I have to laugh...(forword, I have to laugh....)hehehe

great scriptures all who have posted. Man, I need to read my Proverbs more often, Dust. I like those you posted. Not to just apply it here on the board, but in our personal life, too. That's what the Word is for, our personal walk.

[forword]

When posting scriptures to ponder, that is not meant as finger pointing. It is the Word of God. It means that they are scriptures that all need to ponder, especially myself. Actually, what I was expecting was that everyone would post scriptures that would edify all...I was surprised this became more of a discussion thread.

Anyway, there have been many times over the last couple of weeks that I have started to post something, but pondering on the above scripture gave me pause and I would end up deleting the post.

I have also spent much time meditating on Eph 5... I have so much to learn from that passage and thought it would be helpful for all to consider those words, hence my posting without comment. I mean...what could I possibly say about it except, guilty as charged Lord! Help me to live as described in verses 15-21 because I fall far short. Have mercy on me Lord.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All
Thank you for the scriptures!!! I often think of proverbs as tune-ups!}

[wisedove]

Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 2004, QuickVerse, a division of Findex.com, Inc.


Revelation 2:20 - 25 (MSNT) 20Yet I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and by her teaching leads astray My servants, so that they commit fornication and eat what has been sacrificed to idols. 21I have given her time to repent, but she is determined not to repent of her fornication. 22I tell you that I am about to cast her upon a bed of sickness, and I will severely afflict those who commit adultery with her, unless they repent of conduct such as hers. 23Her children too shall surely die; and all the Churches shall come to know that I am He who searches into men’s inmost thoughts; and to each of you I will give a requital which shall be in accordance with what your conduct has been. 24But to you, the rest of you in Thyatira, all who do not hold this teaching and are not the people who have learnt the “deep things,” as they call them (the deep things of Satan!)—to you I say that I lay no other burden on you. 25Only that which you already possess, cling to until I come.

[dust]

Philippians 4

<font color="119911"> 8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true,
whatever things are noble,
whatever things are just,
whatever things are pure,
whatever things are lovely,
whatever things are of good report,
if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy--meditate on these things. </font>

[forword]

I think an Amen to the above scripture is long overdue.

Amen, Dust!