Does anyone know anything about Every Nation London

[out_of_the_blue (out_of_the_blue)]

Hi everyone, I've been reading this site with interest as my brother over in England is a member of Every Nation in London (Hammersmith) and I'm very concerned about him as he's suddenly getting more and more involved.

Does anyone know how strict they are, how likely they are to 'plant' my brother there or on the other side of the world if my family try to intervene, and why every young girl (early twenties) in their congregation seems to be pregnant? The pastor, Wolfi Eckleben (sent by His People, Cape Town) seems very keen for everyone to have babies.

I would be very grateful for any help on this,

thankyou

(Message edited by out_of_the_blue on August 23, 2005)

(Message edited by out_of_the_blue on September 27, 2005)

[lkbk2gofwd (lkbk2gofwd)]

OTB - Personally, I don't have any knowledge of the EN church based in London. I think you can, however, gather a good amount of general info on EN, its history and some of the current concerns folks have with the 'movement' by reading through a number of the threads here. Others who have been here longer than I might be able to recommend particular posts as most helpful.

I pray for wisdom and courage as you seek to demonstrate your love and care for your brother.

-LkBk

[aletheia (aletheia)]

out-of-the-blue, welcome to this board. You will probably hear from someone sometime soon who knows about the London church (more than I do) but here is some information.

His People churches have been grafted into a sort of confederation of churches called Every Nation Churches and Ministries. Every Nation is basically a resurrected version of the original "sociological cult" Maranatha Campus Ministries only with a new face (brand).

Maranatha disbanded about 15 years ago, but many of its former leaders are currently the leaders of Every Nation. Its questionable authoritarian structure still exists and lack of financial accountability (from the senior leaders), though much of their teaching is Biblically sound.

Meanwhile, have you looked up on www.everynation.org (http://www.everynation.org) to find out about the church, and research the internet for His People Church International? Paul and Jenny Daniel are the founders of the ministry in Capetown, which grew into His People Church International (Paul was Pres.). Unfortunately, Paul fell from his leadership position due to marital problems/adultery, left South Africa and His People and moved to Franklin, Tennessee, USA, where most Every Nation senior leaders reside. Paul and Jenny recently sold their home in Franklin, but I do not know their present/future plans.

I believe the former His People Churches have come under the authority and agenda of Every Nation, which has approximately 400 churches at present. Every Nation leaders hope to transform every church/parish into a discipleship-based church with a missionary vision to reach "every nation" for Christ.

This group is not a non-Christian cult like the Moonies, nor a heretical Christian group like the Mormons or Jehovah's Witness, but has been labelled a "sociological cult" do to its abusive authoritarian structure.

However, if you are familiar with Christian doctrine, many also question whether Every Nation is teaching Biblically orthodox views on the nature of God (especially the "Trinity").

There are other websites with information on Maranatha Campus Ministries and Every Nation Churches and Ministries (another name change from Morningstar International this past year).

There are two so-called "apostolic centers" for Every Nation - one in Manilla, the Philippines and one in Brentwood, Tennessee. The three main leaders called the IAT or International Apostolic Team are William Rice Broocks, Jr. ("Rice"), Steve Murrell, and Phil Bonasso. Steve oversees the ministry in Manilla and writes most of the teaching materials. Rice is President and CEO of Every Nation and the head of several other ministries under the Every Nation umbrella.

There are several great churches in London; I was there recently. If you don't have a pastor, Rico Tice is a dynamic, radical (caring) minister at All Soul's in London. He would be good man to counsel with you on this. You may have heard of their former rector John Stott (though not a Charismatic, he is sympathetic). Another great minister you could seek out is the Charismatic Anglican Nicky Gumbel at Holy Trinity Brompton in London, who founded the Alpha Program.

I hope this information was helpful.

May God give you and your family wisdom to know how to reach your brother, and the confidence in our Lord to lead him onto the right path.

In Christ,
aletheia

[actually (actually)]

Hi out_of_the_blue and welcome!

Every Nation in London was planted from His People in Cape Town and as such has never had any history in Maranatha so doesn't have that baggage. We have had some London church members posting here for example: "London member" on this board http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/3337.html?1099860039

Please look through those posts and reassure yourself that your brother is in a healthy church. Some of the things that London member pointed out were that: The church leadership is not controlling but instead serves the church. There is a strong emphasis on Bible teaching from the pulpit and cell groups meet during the week for Bible study and fellowship. There is full financial accountability. Etc, etc.

I've been to EN London and I agree, it's a fantastic church - warm and loving, excellent teaching, inspiring desire to serve the nations. The church does have a strong missions focus and if your brother gets involved, he will certainly have opportunities to go on missions to other countries. These are short term missions (2-3 weeks max). London is supporting the Edinburgh church plant at the moment so a number of members are moving to Scotland as they feel God has called them to do this. Perhaps this is what your brother has mentioned?

I can't speak into the number of pregnancies. I have quite a few friends in that church and none of them are pregnant at the moment ... Of course, some of them are single so that's a good thing :-)

Please feel free to ask any questions you may have, I might be able to answer them or if not, perhaps I can e-mail some of my EN London friends and they can help.

God Bless

(btw aletheia, Paul and Jenny did not move to the US, they were there for a few months while they were being counselled in an attempt to restore the family. They returned to SA soon after. Also "Morningstar international" is a completely different ministry - what you meant to write is Morning Star International and that is precisely why it's good that the name was changed, people kept confusing the two ministries because their names were so similar. Also, every church is an "apostolic centre" because every church plants churches. The IAT has many members, not just the three you mentioned (the board of directors). Check out ulyankee's posts on that for a good explanation of how the churches are linked)

[out_of_the_blue (out_of_the_blue)]

Thankyou everyone,

mixed views but I'm a bit relieved that at least London doesn't sound (from Londonmember) too radical. Mind you their postings were a year ago, from Every Nation's websites it seems they are now stepping up their campaign with fervour (I've read the 2010 Initiative)

Thankyou Aletheia for your suggestions for London pastors. I don't live in England but will make a note of them as they could be a good place for my brother to go - he really needs a dynamic church.

I think my concern now is with the direction Every Nation are taking and surely this must radiate through local churches like London?

Also these conferences that if Ulyankee's quote from last year's have anything to go by:

"This army is called the Morning Star. They that fight with us and take the battle home will stand a-tiptoe on Great Judgment Day and rouse them at the name of Morning Star. Those who face this fight, and live old age will yearly on this vigil feast their brethren and exclaim, "We fight with Morning Star." [. . .] The world itself will hold remembrance for feats that we have done. Then shall our names, familiar in their mouths as household words--Jesus the King, Bonasso and Broocks, Murrell and McCollum, Bradford and Ball--be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red. [. . .] And men religious now abed in Christendom shall think themselves accursed they were not here and hold their faith as cheap whiles any speaks that fight with us in Morning Star!! "

- I dread to think what my brother might have been fed by his church. It does sound as though they consider themselves to be the only ones to be saved which isn't a Christian way of thinking.

I went to one of their services a while ago and it seemed more like part of a college course - everyone had their course books and was taking notes. We were given welcome packs but felt like we had wandered into the middle of something rather than been to a church service.

Are televisions considered to be bad influences?

Once again, thankyou for everyone's advice so far

(Message edited by out_of_the_blue on August 23, 2005)

(Message edited by out_of_the_blue on September 27, 2005)

[actually (actually)]

Hi again

Just in case you didn't know, the quote that ulyankee posted was from a play at a conference. It loosely follows this stirring speech from Shakespeare's Henry the Fifth:

"This day is called the feast of Crispian:
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian:'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispin's day.'
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."

If it was a quote from a sermon, I would completely agree with you - what are they feeding people? - but it was a drama, not to be taken literally.

About taking notes in church, that is normal in EN churches as it is in many churches. I think it's a good practise but I understand that it could be off-putting if you aren't used to that. And for what it's worth, I have a television.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

out_of_the_blue,

The only suggestion I can add is whenever evaluating any church or ministry, is to exercise loving discernment, and to compare the spirit and the fruit of the ministry against those in Scripture.

aletheia, actually is correct in that the Daniels were not in the US very long. Yes, they owned a house, but from what I can ascertain they were not there past the end of last year, when they went back to South Africa.

actually, thank you for your comments about Crusader's Call. The first part is based on Hamlet's soliloquy and the end as you and others have noted is from Henry V's St. Crispin Day speech. Like annelewis I'm a former lit major as well... however, Scripture does also say that the mouth is the overflow of the heart, so I have to be really careful not to view things just through my academic training (something that's often easier said than done!!). The person who wrote and performed this may have had great fun putting this together initially, and I won't dispute that at all, but this soliloquy ended up being reproduced on a CD, with liner notes and everything. It must have meant something more to someone than just a fun skit, which frankly loses something in the translation if you weren't there to see and experience the original. In isolation it can be just plain scary, imho. According to Rice Broocks' comments on the liner notes, the CD was supposed to be a introduction to what was then Morning Star International. Whether it was originally intended or not, the quote above does not bring glory merely to Jesus Christ but also to other individuals. When the race is run however, those of us who fight with Jesus Christ the Morning Star are going to lay our crowns at His feet, which I would assume would include our earthly reputations and accomplishments. The name of Jesus Christ is the only one that matters. He alone is Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on August 23, 2005)

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Mentioning Broocks, Bonasso etc in the same breath as Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!? They read this speech to soldiers in WW2, but I don't think Churchill and Roosevelt were that revered. I would take it very seriously. I would have had something to say about Jesus Christ being compared to Hnery V, whatever the conetx and however and supposedly innocent the purported adaption made.

"Actually" makes a good point in questioning the context of the song. The line with the troika mentioned in the same breath as Jesus may just be innocent hero worship on the part of an over zealous leader attempting to curry favour or stir up a congregation.

Henry V was used as propaganda during WW2 and a film was made with that intent. Mainly because it does appeal to patriotism and there is much grandstanding and hooray for England in the play, but on a deeper level I believe that it is an anti-war play. My English professors may have been intensely liberal and depraved, but it doesn't take genius to figure out that Henry is depicted as a savage and terrible man in the play. It is inescapable. A serious faux pas or mindlessness indeed.

For an interesting and topical review see:

http://www.bostonreview.net/BR30.1/stone.html

http://www.poppolitics.com/articles/2003-05-01-henryv.shtml

[actually (actually)]

Hi ulyankee and speakword
I do hear what you're saying. To call people to stand up and fight with Jesus is noble. To insert the name of your pastor is distasteful. But I think the intention is important here. It isn't a pastor trying to make people think that he is "all that" and that everyone else is going to be really sorry one day ... It's a drama team trying to inspire people to live for God.

There are very real dangers facing churches that focus on discipleship and people need to be informed about what to look for and how to ensure that their churches stay in healthy territory. I just don't want us to lose perspective and focus on the moss while ignoring the forest.

[aletheia (aletheia)]

Greetings outoftheblue,

Thanks for your kind comments. Actually offers a balanced view of things from S.A., but he is not close to the "action" to see what is developing under the nose of leadership here in the USA.

I have heard comments from the "horses mouth" so to speak, and have the discernment as an older believer (with years of ministry, seminary, VLI/ENLI training, etc.) to see the path they are taking, some of which you read in the 2010 initiative.

Though I have never met the former His People International leaders Paul and Jenny Daniel, I have actually been to their home in Franklin, Tennessee, USA, and have seen the legal record with my own eyes stating that Paul recently owned and sold that home.

His People International might be enjoying their honeymoon in Every Nation Churches and Ministries at present, but I believe a day is coming when they will be under the thumb of the IAT. God willing, your brother will have the wisdom and discernment to chose the right path.

There are other great UK churches like Ichthus Christian Fellowship (ichthus.org.uk). The brothers at Kingsway Music or a Christian bookstore might have other good suggestions. Again, besides the current Anglican Communion crisis, I believe Rico Tice at All Soul's in London is solid, and a gifted Bible teacher - born in Chile, reared in Uganda and Zaire. The following is an interesting interview with him:

http://lifeaction.gospelcom.net/soro/revivingthegospel/content/ricotice.html

Morning Star and Morningstar are different ministries, sorry for the typo. Every Nation was formerly Morning Star International.

The "2 apostolic centers" quote was made from an EN pulpit here, stating that they are Manila, the Philippines and Brentwood, Tennessee, USA.

Peace to all,
aletheia

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

actually & speakword,

Point taken. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif I'm mainly saying that there may have been different intentions in Crusader's Call being specifically selected for inclusion on a CD as representing MSI than those of the person who originally wrote/performed the skit.

blessings and peace,
ulyankee

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

I agree. Someone with Rice's education should know better. As for His People. The honeymoon has been going for 8 plus years. I think there is a "special" arangement based on historical autonomy and the need to de-americanize the international church. Look at the logo of EN. The States hardly shows.

[jazzy]

I am sorry to say that I cannot recommend EN London. I have personal experience of the group and feedback from friends. Teaching leans on the "health, wealth and prosperity" side unfortunately and the group is not helpful for those with broken lives and/or backgrounds which hardly fits with Christ's ministry (see Isaiah 61!) The group can also be quite intense, legalistic and controlling but I would just stay in touch with your bro and pray to God for his guidance. Don't be too surprised if he comes away hurt though. Best wishes xx

[dust]

Hi Jazzy,
What you describe seems to describe all of the EN churches world-wide. You have come into an "old" thread, but I wanted to say that if you feel led to post your testimony or what you know of this church, you are welcome to do that. Many people read here, looking for answers. Some have been very abused. Some have just realized it's not a ministry that as you say, "fit's with Christ's ministry.

You are absolutely right that this is not a group that embraces people with broken lives. The mantra at the church I attended, Bethel World Outreach Center, the headquarters for EN, bragged that they were not a "hospital church."

If you need any help negotiating the information posted here, let me know.

[jazzy]

I don't think I'm in a position to give more personal details right now other than to say that my experience of life this far, of God, myself, others and God's word shows me the Christ is the most awesome lover, healer, friend, guide and ruler. At the moment places like EN make me very angry because there are so many thousands of broken hurting people in this world and to all, particularly these people, he says "Come to me..." regardless of race, religion, appearance, strength, intelligence etc (as I say, this is my impression/vision/experience thus far) and I just find places like EN seem to say "go away" to so many people, probably just the types who would have thrown themselves with love at Christ's feet (like the women with the alabaster jar?!) I may be wrong....Love and best wishes xx

[lc_20]

Welcome Jazzy. Great note. Did you get to visit the Scotland church plant? I am wondering how that is going.

[dust]

Jazzy: I just find places like EN seem to say "go away" to so many people,

Dust: I wonder who gets the worst deal at EN. The "not good enough" who leave quickly and are ignored, or the POLISHED leader potential who get snapped up by Pastors, discipled and put through the machine of pomp and pride, perhaps forsaking their careers, abandoning their familes, eventually trading Christian core values for EN leadership core values in pursuit of GREATNESS.

Once THESE POLISHED STONES protest, they are crushed to dust, and it's often hard to put them back together..

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Dust,
well said thank you}

[dust]

Thanks Coppertree...nice to see you.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif