Last Days Discussion Continued Here [Archive]

wisedove

11-23-2006, 03:57 AM

Here's a quote from another interesting article:
http://contenderministries.org/prophecy/rapturetribPF.php

The word rapture (in Greek harpazo, in Latin rapere) means to be caught up or taken away suddenly. The rapture refers to the sudden removal of all of God's people on the earth. In the twinkling of an eye, born again Christians will suddenly be transformed out of our human bodies and will rise up into the air to join Jesus Christ.

Many Christians are afraid to talk about the rapture of the Church. Deep down they feel an excitement about the prospect of being snatched away in the twinkling of an eye to be with the Lord and Savior they love, worship, and have given their lives to. However, they fear being labeled or criticized for a hope that many through the ages have had; a hope that God fully intended for us to have. God warned us against ignoring the hope that end-times prophecy gives us in I Thessalonians 5:16 when he said "Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil."

There is a reason Christ warned his end-times followers 13 times in the New Testament to not be deceived, and to watch and be ready. He wanted us to be excited about His glorious appearing.

Satan, on the other hand, does not want us to be excited. He is the master deceiver and wants us to believe his deception rather than the signs of Christ's return given to us by Jesus himself. He will send many to deceive us and to rob us of the joy of living every day in anticipation of Christ's return.

For those who believe that the Bible is the truth and is the very word of God, it's easy to believe in and rejoice in the prophecies that tell of the rapture of God's Church. The Bible tells us of others who have been taken up into heaven in very much the same way that we will be at the time of the rapture. Elijah was taken up into heaven like a whirlwind.

osakadan

11-23-2006, 04:21 AM

Many Christians are afraid to talk about the rapture of the Church. Deep down they feel an excitement about the prospect of being snatched away ............ However, they fear being labeled or criticized ...........

Dove, not attacking you but shouldn't you be careful not to project your feelings onto a whole body of very diverse christians?

wisedove

11-23-2006, 04:29 AM

Osaka,
I was only quoting from the link above. These were not my words, they were from a link on an article that I found interesting and wanted to share.
Blessings,
Dove

osakadan

11-23-2006, 04:35 AM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif Sorry about that.......Had better send those comments to the author.

wisedove

11-23-2006, 05:33 AM

Forgiven! Have a blessed Thanksgiving Day!

40days40years

11-23-2006, 09:41 AM

Great topic Wisedove I support you and I will show shortly how the MCM/MSI/EN lie that the rapture was just the delusion of af a deluded Irish lady is a lie. It goes way, way back before her. The entire E/N post millenium theology is a crock of rotten cheese. Rotten endtime theology! Mr. Lafooon better read this stuff coming up.

speakword2004

11-23-2006, 10:12 AM

Now you see me now you don't. Rapture practise!

wisedove

11-23-2006, 03:58 PM

Look forward to it, 40/40. Thanks!

wisedove

11-23-2006, 05:48 PM

As my casserole cooks, I will try to squeeze a few interesting points to ponder. There are a few key scriptures that I feel support the fact that the Church (Body of Christ and Bride of Christ) will be taken out of the earth into the heavenlies to meet Jesus in the air before the peace treaty with Isreal is signed, thus starting the 7 year tribulation.

The Bible promises God's people will be exempt from the coming wrath of God during the tribulation. God will be pouring out His wrath and judgements against rebellious people. (i Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10) His judgement begins with the first seal and continues up until the 2nd coming of Christ to the earth. why would Jesus' bride be present for this?
Next, in Rev. 3:10-11, God says to the church "Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world. Look, I am coming quickly." This time of great testing is clearly the tribulation period fromk chapters 6-19 of Rev. where is the mention of the church in these chapters? in chapters 1-5 of Revelation, the church is specifically mentioned 19 times, but in Rev. chapters 6-19, where the trib. is described, where is the church?

Another point, Beleiver's are told to constantly anticipate the rapture. (1 Cor. 1:7 and 16:22; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; Jude 1:21) How do we stay at a constant level of "watching, be ready, alert unless there is a REASON to be, which is why a PRE trib. rapture is the only biblical point of view.

If you are mid-trib., the rapture is at least 3 1/2 years away. How do you eagerly anticipate that in any moment?

If you are post-trib., you have at least 7 years before it can occur. How do you eagerly anticipate that, then? You KNOW you at least have 7 years.

Pre-trib. is the only one that makes for a viewpoint that it can occur at any moment, so be ready. I don't need to earnestly watch and be ready if I know I have AT LEAST 3 1/2 - 7 years before this is to happen.

wisedove

11-23-2006, 05:55 PM

His 2nd coming, which WILL take place after the trib., will have multiple purposes...1. to defeat the anti-christ and his armies (Rev. 19:19-21). To regather and restore-Isreal will be scattered one more time during the trib. period. Christ will gather the Jews together and restore them as His people. (Is. 11:11-16) and (Matt. 24:30-31)

He will judge those living on the earth "sheep and goats" Matt. 25:31-46)

He will ressurect the dead (old testament believers and martyred Christians during the trib.) (Rev. 20:4-6) Dan. 12:1-4

He will bind the devil (Rev. 20:1-3)

He will establish Himself as KING Matt. 19:28; Luke 1:32-33) Rev. 1:7

wisedove

11-23-2006, 06:31 PM

Copyright © 1979, 1980, 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. All rights reserved. Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 1998, Parsons Technology, Inc.

Luke 21:29 - 36 (NKJV) 29Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 34“But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36Watch therefore, and pray always that you may £be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

I don't think I mentioned this verse in my above 2 posts.

(Message edited by wisedove on November 23, 2006)

maranatha1984

12-06-2006, 01:23 PM

Nice posts and reading. As for myself I am an Amillenialists ala St Augustine...City of God is a good read. I discuss it in my Blog. Until the 19th century pretty much the entire "Christian Church" was either Amillenial or Postmillenial. It was only after the US Civil War...(for US) and WW1 for Europe, when hope for a gradual progression and triumph waned in the aftermath of those great tragedies that Premillenialism and The "rapture" came into vogue. Other than a small coterie of Catholic Priests (who were considered semi heretics) in the 15th century belief in the "rapture of the church" and a premillinial return of Christ was non existent.

Not that that makes the belief WRONG- I only point out that.

The view Amillennialism holds that the millennium exists during this age and exists right now. The church is the kingdom of God on earth. Christ rules His kingdom through the church.

Now for Kicks here is one of my FAVORITE WEBSITE thrown in for FREE

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/bookmark/realbad.htm

speakword2004

12-06-2006, 03:08 PM

Thanks Tikie. Have read that sight and enjoyed. For those of you interested I find The Preterist Archive to be my eschatological candy store:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/

I am more of a Partial Preterist with a revivalist rather than Theonomic understanding of Postmillenialism.

For a good article discussing the revival of Premillenialism as explained by Tik above see

http://www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/press_balmer-randall.html

speakword2004

12-06-2006, 03:16 PM

My revivalist understanding of the millenium puts me closer to the Amillenialist camp as I also belive that we are in the millenium since AD70 with the destruction of the temple. The church is God's Israel here on earth.

speakword2004

12-06-2006, 03:22 PM

What I must point out to those who have not studied the eschatology of Lafoon et al. is that they do not subscribe to a Postmillenialist or Theonomic viewpoint or a Premillenialist - one. They hold, in fact, to a New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR)Millinarian viewpoint which believes that a golden age will be ushered in by the evangelical efforts of a chosen few who accomplish enough to provide some type of second coming in whcih certain individuals will be endowed with Godlike powers here on earth to rule and reigh in equal co-regency with Christ. Stalinism and Nazism were millenarian in character.

Chairman Mao with his little red book would be proud to see so many Purple book eaters.

mcmstaff78

12-06-2006, 06:03 PM

Speak and maranathan1984, y'all are pretty close to the Orthodox position. We are living in the "millenium" now (the 1000 years in the Apocalpyse being metaphorical for the Church age), as Christ said "My kingdom is not of this world" and "when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20-21)

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Tik: Not that that makes the belief WRONG- I only point out that.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Interestingly enough (for those who are interested in such things), while there is some dispute of this in pre-millenial quarters, millenialism, or Chiliaism, was condemned as a heresy by the council of Ephesus (431 AD, the Third Ecumenical Council). Additionally, the Second Ecumenical Council (Nicea, 381 AD) in condemning the heretic Apollinarius, condemned his teaching about the thousand-year Kingdom of Christ and added to the Nicene Creed the phrase whose kingdom shall have no end to combat it.

I found a rather interesting paper by a Reformed theology professor here (http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/hill-charles_04_01.html).

(Message edited by mcmstaff78 on December 06, 2006)

maranatha1984

12-06-2006, 10:26 PM

MCM: I had a chance whilst in Russia to attend the Russian Orthodox Church Services- man- incredible if you don't mind standing up for 2 hours- the music was unbelievable- we were at the Khazakanaya Cathedral in Kaluga and about an hour into the service I became convinced the incense contained some type of hallucinagen- I started, and I am not kidding , having visions...

Oddly enough the service reminded me of some of the extended praise and worship sessions that Matt used to lead at Auburn- plus beards, robes, hats , icons incense and incredible backdrop- one word I would use is OTHERWORLDLY!

matt_hatter

12-06-2006, 11:43 PM

extended praise and worship sessions that Matt used to lead at Auburn

It was those 'warm up sessions' in the little office that took us to the otherworldly place. Remember that Tikie? All of us shediggy-ing and shalamaladingdong-ing before we took the stage? I MADE YOU LAUGH!!!!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

ulyankee

12-07-2006, 12:16 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

What I must point out to those who have not studied the eschatology of Lafoon et al. is that they do not subscribe to a Postmillenialist or Theonomic viewpoint or a Premillenialist - one. They hold, in fact, to a New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR)Millinarian viewpoint which believes that a golden age will be ushered in by the evangelical efforts of a chosen few who accomplish enough to provide some type of second coming in whcih certain individuals will be endowed with Godlike powers here on earth to rule and reigh in equal co-regency with Christ. Stalinism and Nazism were millenarian in character.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

As one who has studied EN's organizational-level eschatology I agree with Speak here. While EN calls itself postmillennial, and quotes postmillennial Christian Reconstructionist writers to support its position, one very key difference is that EN teaches that MAN has the power to bring about or hold back the millennium and/or Jesus' return. The reason why the church has "failed" over the past 2000 years is that it didn't realize that it had the power to "take" the world for Christ so that He could or would return. But now they have recovered this knowledge, this "apostolic mandate." Working toward this is what is meant in EN as "destiny."

There is no way that what EN believes and practices is any way "Reformed" (instead Speak and 84 are in that tradition).

I know that there are people here in the States thinking that EN was closer to being a Pentecostal type church were very, very, very surprised to learn that EN is not that, either.

jesusisawesome

12-07-2006, 02:27 AM

84, thanks for sharing the link. I popped in for a brief look, and I remember Brother Jed (Jed Smock). I don't know if he still does, but he used to do a lot of open-air preaching at USC (open-air preaching not associated with MCM/VCF/MSM/EN).

I can still remember his wife standing up and open-air preaching on the campus about how her husband never sinned anymore, LOL . . . I've yet to meeting the Christian that has reached that type of perfection. Christ alone holds that honor.

mcmstaff78

12-07-2006, 04:13 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Tik: I had a chance whilst in Russia to attend the Russian Orthodox Church Services- man- incredible if you don't mind standing up for 2 hours..<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Two hours? You must have been to a short service! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif Seriously, Sunday mornings at my parish last three hours. We start out with Matins (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Matins) and then go directly into the Divine Liturgy (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Divine_Liturgy). If you're not use to it it seems like just one long service. And, yes, we worship mostly standing, especially on Sundays. However, there are only a few times when one should always stand, if physically able: when the Gospel is brought out and read and when the Eucharistic elements are brought out in the "Great Entrance". However, we generally stand whenever possible. A good (and short) article on this can be found here (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/whystand.aspx).

Tik, your experience echoes that of emissaries of Prince Vladimir of Kiev (10th century AD) who, while still a pagan, desired to know which was the true religion, and therefore sent his followers to visit the various countries of the world in turn. It is said they went first to the Moslem Bulgars of the Volga, but were disappointed in their worhip. Traveling next to Germany and Rome, they found the worship more satisfactory, but complained that here too it was without beauty. Finally they journeyed to Constantinople and attended worship in the Hagia Sophia, the greatest building ever raised for the worship of our Lord. They reported back to Vladimir, 'We knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth, for surely there is no such splendour or beauty anywhere upon earth. We cannot describe it to you: only this we know, that God dwells there among men, and that their service surpasses the worship of all other places. For we cannot forget that beauty.'

wisedove

12-07-2006, 09:25 PM

Tik, speakword, mcm, ulyankee, and jia, and matt-
(did i get all of you?)

Thanks for your additional input into this discussion. I've been away from the computer for a while. I just haven't (sorry if this offends!) been led to post lately. Also, I find it quite refreshing not playing on the computer quite so much lately!

Ul, I enjoyed your comments about EN's stand on the postmillinium stuff. it was new information to me. I had not heard that before.

MCM, i SORTA agree with you that we are in the milinneal time frame where Jesus will actually come back to reign. I just think we will be raptured up before the actuall tribulation takes place, and then return to reign for the remainder of the 1000 years with Him.

When I have more energy, I will elaborate some more later. Happy Holidays!! I'm sippin on my favorite frapp. right now, and got hooked on it exactly 2 Christmas's ago. from starbucks, it's the peppermint mocha frappucino. try one. The gingerbread latte and eggnog latte are also delicious there. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

matt_hatter

12-07-2006, 09:40 PM

Dove would be like us old MCMer's..if the fellowship closed, we would have to move. If Starbucks closed, she would have to move.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

wisedove

12-07-2006, 09:53 PM

you are totally right about that...hehehe(matt)
Try the peppermint mocha frapp. it is delicious and quite pretty around Christmas time. Flo, if you are lurking around this thread, I know you secretly (since you hang out with the ladies often) sip on the frozen treats while dressed in your favorite Christmas outfit....hehe This one has cute red sprinkles on the whipped cream. Very festive and yummy.

matt_hatter

12-07-2006, 09:55 PM

I'll bet my son has had the frozen one. I have known Belle, our Golden, to go to his room and retrieve the Stabucks cup out of his trash and lick it clean!

wisedove

12-07-2006, 09:58 PM

I can see why a even pups would enjoy it! Have him try the peppermint mocha frap. truly yummy, if you like peppermint and chocolate.

mcmstaff78

12-07-2006, 10:01 PM

Yeah, my 16 year old daughter is big into Starbucks fraps and lates. I just want coffee, and I won't pay for what I consider an overpriced, usually overly bitter and poorly brewed cup of java. But, you know, I'm not opinionated or anything! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

wisedove

12-07-2006, 10:57 PM

mcm,
I try not to think about how much i spend on starbucks. i look at it as a tip for being a housewife and mom. I deserve a tip, don't I? hehe
It is a sad fact that any chance I get, I want a starbucks gift card to help feed my addiction...I'm happy with a starbucks card over a candle any day, and I LOVE candles.

jesusisawesome

12-08-2006, 01:18 AM

Dovey: I've been away from the computer for a while. I just haven't (sorry if this offends!) been led to post lately.

JIA: Hi Dovie, I'm not bothered if there is a lack of posting . . . it is hard to keep up and respond to everything.

I am with you on Starbucks and fraps! I wean myself off of Starbucks, then I go through a bad spell and start buying again . . . it has been a repeating cycle of late . . . I am in the buying cycle again.

It doesn't help that I can get a latte just down the hall (we have a Starbucks booth in our building) at a discount for $2.15. Unfortnately, we can't get Fraps at work, that is the one Starbucks drink not available (Starbucks doesn't want to give away their recipe to our vendor station)

But it adds up quickly . . one of my New Year's Resolutions will be to ration the Starbucks! Yet again . . . sigh . . . there's just nothing like a latte to start out the morning when it is below freezing and the ground is covered in snow . . .

wisedove

12-16-2006, 12:38 AM

Here's an interesting tid-bit of information posted from "prophecy in the news" website. Just more to chew on. Take it or leave it.}

peace
EU summit accepts Spain's peace initiative
15/12/06 The European Council officially accepted Spain, France and Italy's Middle East peace plan this morning, and will formally endorse it tomorrow. The peace plan calls for a ceasefire to be enforced between Israel and the Palestinian terrorist organizations, the release of Palestinian prisoners and Israeli captives, the formation of a Palestinian unity government, direct talks between Prime Minister Olmert and President Abbas and EU troops to monitor the ceasefire. The European Union also urged Syria to play a more constructive roll in the region.
Quote: "The 25 foreign ministers reaffirmed the initiative Thursday and leaders from the 25 EU nations will formally endorse it Friday.

This is big news folks, for to me it now becomes clear how a peace treaty in the Middle East could be adopted, and then later confirmed by the leader of the European Union - currently Javier Solana, the High Representative for the European Common, Foreign and Security Policy. I don't know whether this peace initiative will be the one the Antichrist will confirm, but it certainly involves the right nations according to Daniel's prophecy.

Daniel 9:27
And he (Antichrist - head of the European Union) shall confirm (strengthen something already in place) the covenant with many for one week (seven years): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Meanwhile in light of the previous article on Israel's nuclear weapons, Javier Solana has reaffirmed the EU's policy that the Middle East region should be made a nuclear-free zone.

maranatha1984

12-20-2006, 04:15 AM

JIA: can still remember his wife standing up and open-air preaching on the campus about how her husband never sinned anymore, LOL . . . I've yet to meeting the Christian that has reached that type of perfection. Christ alone holds that honor.

Tikie: That would have been Cindy...her brother Jim was a member of MCM at Auburn...whenever Jed came to Auburn we would throw a dinner in his honoer...he was a Charles Finneyite hyper Pelagian although I did not understand this at the time, they have a number of children- Ole Jed off stage was a very humbole and nice guyT

Tikie

jesusisawesome

12-20-2006, 10:36 PM

Thanks Tikie, I do want to apologize for this comment. It is one of my "regret saying that ... why did I say that?" faux pas.

Regardless of whatever she did preach or didn't preach, this is not something I should have repeated here, and has no bearing on the issues being dealt with . . . so again my apologies.

jesusisawesome

12-20-2006, 10:38 PM

genesis_truth

12-21-2006, 03:01 AM

Hi All.

Matt 24:9-14 seems to indicate that we will need to pursevere through the tribulation. Then move ahead to Matt 24:29-31. This then indicates that after the tribulation, Jesus returns in magnificent glory and gathers the elect of God (ie the Christians). I believe that unfortunately Christians will need to live through the tribulation and this chapter seems to indicate that some will not carry their faith through (ie this time of extreme testing is going to be a time for us to perservere to the end and be saved).

genesis_truth

12-21-2006, 03:13 AM

1Thess 4:130-5:5 I think addresses the issue above in regards to not knowing the time of the rapture. Paul refers to it regularly as coming after the tribulation ("those who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord" 1Thess 4:15). In ch 5 he uses an image of labour pains. Just as in pregnancy, you do not know the exact time of the labour beginning or ending, neither will we know the exact time of the start or finish of the tribulation and thus Jesus returning. However, we can know it is coming. Just like a woman knows as she gets bigger and bigger that her time of labour is coming closer yet does not know the exact time, we also will know the coming of Jesus Christ is near yet still not know the exact day or hour. Paul in 4:13 states that he does not want us to be uninformed (ie. we can know what to look for and the signs). In Matt 24, Jesus in response to a question as to what the signs will be answers the disciples. If we were to have no idea, I am sure Jesus would have responded accordingly and reassured them not to worry because it will not effect them. 1Thess 4 is the foundational pssage on the rapture in the Bible and so needs to be used to "unlock" other verses which hint at the rapture.

pilgrim

12-23-2006, 02:49 PM

Hi Genesis_truth,

Thank your for your messages. It looks like my understanding of the bible prophesies and what I believe about the end times and the rapture is very similar to yours.
Please keep on preaching to us!!

To everyone,

I personally believe that the saints will be the temple of the Holy Spirit during the tribulation and they will be guided by the Holy Spirit in the same way as in the present time.

I believe that we can not live a Holy life on our own strength. Christians during the tribulation will need the guidance of the Holy Spirit more than ever. The bible does not say that the Holy Spirit will taken away from the saints in the last days.John14:16 The Holy Spirit will be with us for ever.
Mark13:9-11 the Holy Spirit will be with the saints during the tribulation.
I believe that saints during the tribulation will also be saved by grace they will wash their clothes the blood of the Lamb, will overcome by the word of their testimony and the blood of Lamb. Read Revelation 12:11 , Revelation 7:14.

I am posting some post tribulation rapture websites.

http://www.velocity.net/~edju/

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/

Please note there are two resurrections that will happen in the future and are mentioned in the New Testament the resurrection to life for believers which occurs at the rapture and the resurrection of the damned when the unrepentant are judged and sent to the lake of fire (not Hell because even Hell is thrown into the lake of fire). See Revelation 20:4-5 believers who did not take the Mark of the Beast in the foreheads or the hands were included in the first resurrection. This scripture shows us that Christians will go through the tribulation.
Christians who do not take the mark of the beast in the hand or forehead will not receive God wrath Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 16:2, but they will be persecuted by the kingdom of the antichrist. Rev 13:5-9 and the false church/religion. Rev18:24.

With a lot of love in Christ,
pilgrim

genesis_truth

12-27-2006, 11:05 AM

Thanks Pilgrim. Those websites are excellent. I have added them to my favourites and will work through them.

I think a lot of people would be questioning why we should worry about this "little" issue and that let us just enjoy God and not try to analyse Him and His word etc. This is not a little issue as it can have quite drastic ramifications. It needs to be quite carefully taught about. Pre-trib theology can be a concern in the following ways:

1) Biblical support. Biblical support for it is sketchy and can cause a habit of "stretching" scriptures (or extracting a meaning that was not intended).

2) Falling from faith. Let us say that pre-trib is taught as correct - the majority of people believe in the rapture before the tribulation starts. What happens if the rapture is after the tribulation (as the Bible indicates)? I think a lot of people will lose their faith and really struggle with God because all this horrible stuff is happening and they were sure that they would be exempt from this. However if Post-trib is taught and lived out, we have Christians equiping themselves for tough times - seeking the Lord, applying scripture, clothing themselves in God's presence - and therefore are more likely to perservere to the end of this horrible time. However, if post-trib is somehow wrong and rapture happens before (pre or mid) then it is a blessing and no one will be cursing God and losing their faith over it.

3) Guidance. If all Christians are removed when the tribulation starts, then who is going to be there to provide answers, leadership, and guidance for those looking at the world wondering what the heck is going on!

It appears a lot of people base their theology in this area on the popular book series - Left Behind and spin offs. These books are very entertaining and exciting (I have read them) but don't draw correctly from the Word.

maranatha1984

12-27-2006, 04:46 PM

Speak:also belive that we are in the millenium since AD70 with the destruction of the temple. The church is God's Israel here on earth

Tikie: Excellent summary of St Augustine and Justin Martyr's positions. And mine as well. The Abomination of Desolation occurred when Romans soldiers had a rape fest in the Holy of Holies after the sack of Jersusalem...

pilgrim

12-27-2006, 07:01 PM

Tikie,

The Millennial Kingdom with Christ had not started yet and unfortunately satan is still deceiving the nations. Revelation 20:3

Read Revelation 20:1-6

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

People who do not understand the end time message in the gospels and the book of revelation will be more likely to obey the second beast in Revelation 13 and take the Mark of the Beast in the hands or foreheads.

maranatha1984

12-27-2006, 07:18 PM

Pilgrim:People who do not understand the end time message in the gospels and the book of revelation will be more likely to obey the second beast in Revelation 13 and take the Mark of the Beast in the hands or foreheads.

Tikie: That supposes that the Abomination of Desolation has not already occurred that Satan has not already been bound and loosed and that the church is NOT reigning and ruling.

You might expect that I do not accept the hypothesis you propose... and in fact this view was not extent in Christianity until 1865 when Darby made his trip to the US and snagged DL Moody. A good read would be any of the works of Augustine of Hippo

Those who do not understand that the millenial is a metaphorical term...and that the Revelation is an historical and forward looking document fail to understand the role of the Church and see God and the see the End times in a distorted way...if you think about it people like Bob were able to take advantage of this doctrine, which IMHO is a distortion of the scripture and a recent heresey, wide spread I grant you, but none the less a doctrine I disagree with.

This is not a matter of Faith or Salvation...but one of relating rightly to God

pilgrim

12-27-2006, 11:01 PM

Tikie you wrote: "That supposes that the Abomination of Desolation has not already occurred that Satan has not already been bound and loosed and that the church is NOT reigning and ruling."

Bob Weiner taught that the church was reigning and ruling that it is why he wanted to take rule over the universities and the institutions of the world.

The bible says that before the rapture we will have a raise in the apostacy and the antichrist will be revealed 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
It would also be like in the time of Noah Matthew 24:36-39.
It will be the worst tribulation since the beginning of the world but those days will be shortened otherwise no flesh would be saved. Matthew 24:21-22.
They will be many false christs Matthew 24:23-27

Perhaps the people who believe in the Latter Rain Manisfest Sons of God Doctrine or Coorporate Manchild are some of these false Christs!

We are in the times of the falling away ie the apostacy the antichrist and the Mark of the Beast are coming before the rapture. Matthew 24:29-36.
After the rapture jesus will defeat the antichrist. The millenium with christ will happen after the rapture.

(Message edited by pilgrim on December 27, 2006)

pilgrim

12-27-2006, 11:57 PM

Tikie,

You might also enjoy reading the following debate. I have to finish to read it myself.

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/debate3.html

Blessings
pilgrim

mcmstaff78

12-28-2006, 12:55 AM

The problem with most dominion theology's "rulling and reigning", as well as, IMO, millenialism in general, is that it materializes the Kingdom of God which Christ specifically stated was not of this world. It takes scriptures that pertain to the post-resurrection reality and interprets them as pre-eschaton. This is the problem with WoF theology and the whole "kings" and "sons", etc. It fails to recognize the "now" and "not yet" eschatalogical tension of the New Testament. Christ has done all to redeem us, but we don't experience that redemption in it's fullness this side of the resurrection. We have been redeemed to be "sons of God" and "joint heirs with Christ", to be "partakers of the divine nature" - but the fullness of that is not found in this world, but in the world to come, in the resurrection. As St. John writes, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1Jo 3:2) It is in the eschaton that those "who endureth to the end" shall "be like Him". In this age the kingdom is "within" us (Luke 17:21) and we press into it "violently" and "work out" our own salvation, doing nothing "through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves."(Phi 2:3)

dust

12-28-2006, 01:33 AM

mcm78
I like what you just said. We Do agree from time to time, and this is one of those times.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

P.S. I just wish your name wasn't MCM!

mcmstaff78

12-28-2006, 03:18 PM

Dust, my "name" isn't "MCM", my user ID is. You're welcome to call me "Jon" like dilly does (perhaps one reason I react to JBK the way I do - besides his absolutely horrendous theology - is that he shares my first name. I am reminded of Alexander the Great's reaction to one of his soldier's dereliction of duty - when he found out the soldier's name was "Alexander" he said "either change your name or change your ways"). My user ID was meant simply to convey why I was here initially, it certainly is not meant to be descriptive of who I am now.

dust

12-28-2006, 04:34 PM

I realize that's not your real name.
Now, Jon, did you think I was that blonde? hahahahhahaha

I can call you 78, too, like I call 40/40 just 40. Not a word on that okay. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

I chose my name for a very specific reason. People think it's means the ashes to ashes, but it doesn't. It represents following in the dust of my rabbi, Jesus Christ where the yoke is light, and truth is the truth. I was inspired by a short film called Dust produced by Rob Bell.

I highly recommend these films (noomas) to anyone who has been wrecked by religion.

maranatha1984

12-28-2006, 04:48 PM

Gen:pursevere through the tribulation.

Tikie: this is true... but the "rapture" set define the tribulation as the onset of a tribulation...where as the reality is that ONLY Western Hemespheric Christians could believe this. Trust me the Russian True Church underwent decades of Tribulation, the early Church hundreds of years, the "church" in China is undergoing tremendous tribulation..as is the "church" in Turkey.

No the tribulation will continue until the end of days.

Well...the truth is that the "rapture" and Darbism have only been around 120 years...and is currently the vogue because it is mysterious and exciting and is hyped by PReachers to make a point...and to give the "church" as special mission...but it actually is NOT supported by the weight of scripture IMHO...

sunshinesaint

12-28-2006, 10:30 PM

Dust - tell us how long you have been out the cult http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif and have you found another church yet? If you have - what did you guys look for in a new one?

genesis_truth

12-28-2006, 10:36 PM

The Tribulation talked about by Jesus will make these regional ones look like sunday-school picnics. When he speaks about this he refers to a worldwide one not regional persecution like China or Russia etc

mcmstaff78

12-29-2006, 01:42 AM

Genesis, I'm not so sure about that. If you really read about what the martyrs of the first three centuries of the Church endured, it was about as horific as human beings can treat one another.

While I do believe there is a coming "Great Tribulation", I'm not so sure that it will be so much greater than those saints endured, or, for that matter, what was endured in the 20th century when more Christians died for their faith than in the whole history of the Church prior to that.

mcmstaff78

12-29-2006, 01:46 AM

Dust, you can call me anything you like as long as you don't call me late for dinner! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif Old, joke, I know, but then, I'm an old man!! (At least that's what my daughters keep telling me.)

I know you didn't really think my name was "MCM". I was just saying..."78" is fine. "Jon" is fine. JD is fine. "Staff" I don't think I'd like, seems like it's short for "staff infection" or something. Honestly, I thought your user Id was
for shaking the dust off your feet. But you rationale is better, obviously.

dust

12-29-2006, 05:31 AM

MC, (hey I like that one), the shaking the dust off....that's pretty good too.

And, I don't think you can be THAT old. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

maranatha1984

12-31-2006, 08:11 PM

gEN:The Tribulation talked about by Jesus will make these regional ones look like sunday-school picnics. When he speaks about this he refers to a worldwide one not regional persecution like China or Russia etc

Tikie: My guess is that you are from North Amerika- otherwise you could not possible have the attitude that you have calling the Russian and Chinese and CAmbodian persectution REGIONAL and nursury school like. I say this in all gentleness and candor. THe tribulation of the church continues

maranatha1984

12-31-2006, 08:11 PM

speakword2004

12-31-2006, 08:22 PM

Read your Bible:
REVELATIONS: It says "I John, in the midst of the tribulation."The tribulation was circa AD70.

bgmark2

04-16-2007, 10:20 PM

The tribulation was the abomination of desolation (http://jesus-survival.com/Abomination-desolation.htm) that has already happened.

pilgrim

04-22-2007, 10:00 PM

Please read Revelation 13:16-18

He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or[f] the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

Here is another interesting video and article,

Title: Rockefeller Admitted Elite Goal Of Microchipped Population
http://www.northernresistance.info/video.html (Look at the second video called Rockefeller Admitted Elite Goal Of Microchipped Population )

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/290107rockefellergoal.htm

You can also look at this website,

http://users.cybertime.net/~ajgood/chipindex.html

40days40years

04-23-2007, 12:59 AM

Pilgrim I find it amazing that many Christians are now saying the great tribulation already happened. Obviously it has not because that tribulation in Revelations is worlwide and fairly short, the bible even tells how many days it will last. At the end of the tribulation Jesus comes back and evil is banished it is pretty easy to at least figure that out. I think the way God writes about the mark of the beast is pretty obvious, he is saying its simple! don't take the mark. Their chipping dogs and cats now and some want to chip their kids so they can find them.

pilgrim

04-23-2007, 02:12 PM

40days40years,

I don't know why so many christians are preterist, maybe the leaders of their denomination teaches this doctrine and they have to believe the same to contribute in their denominations as Leaders, Sunday School teachers etc.
So it is easier for them not to think and not to question this teaching.

Satan probably loves this teaching. ie if they think that the tribulation happened in the past they are probably going to take the Mark of the Beast and promote it without questioning anything.

All that I can do for the time being is to post again the following websites,

www.lasttrumpet.com (http://www.lasttrumpet.com)

In the next websites you can see a debate,Preterism versus futurism.

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/debate3.html

genesis_truth

04-24-2007, 03:23 AM

40/40 and Pilgrim, I totally agree!!! It is a very, very dangerous position to take - one which could seriously kill the faith of many christians thinking the bad stuff has happened and are waiting for the nice return of Christ.

The only valid biblical position is that the tribulation has not happened. It is going to be extremely horrible and vast and it will sort out the true believers who will be carried in the strength and perserverence of the Holy Spirit.

I pray that I am in that group and not one who falls away.